Gen Con Indy – we leave it up to our Kickstarter backers

[Warshield73]

How about this one, a waitress takes an order from a you, then 20 minutes later another couple comes in, and they order the same thing, and she gives them your order, does that make it fair ?

Fair, no. Illegal, hell no. Reasons for a law suit, get real.
And your analogy is not even close to what is happening unless PB gets back from Gen Con and doesn't have enough box sets to fill the pledges.

[Warshield73]

1: how is this the same as lieing since PB has control over whether they honor their deal, its not luck, its not chance its not a screwup or a mistake, they have a choice, furthermore its not that great of deal I can pre-order the boxes for less then they sold on the KS now, and the expansions are about the same price too.

Not going to comment on the first part, peeing up a tree comes to mind.

For the second part, and I should probably get a warning for this so let it fly NMI, where did you learn math?

The battle cry pledge, the most common pledge cost $140. The contents of that pledge alone are worth over $500 retail.

Even first contact, the cheapest to get the game, was $80 and you get over $130 of stuff retail. The first part, fine you can take your disappointment and hate and slander all you want but the second part, please.
:frustration:

[Warshield73]

and this is why I blocked you on FB because the analogy is the same.

Huh? Blocked me where?

[Forar]

Did I put my money($650 or so of it at least) where my mouth is? Yes

Funny, that puts you just behind my portion of my group's contribution. Fancy that.

[At least I know where you stand. Or don't, doormat.

Forar, any comments on how classy this is?? I can wait.

Nope, you fight your own fights with Kendachi.

Besides, he knows precisely how classy he is, and if someone's trying to make me the grand arbiter of classiness, I'm not falling for that. Again.

I thought the Kickstarter exclusives were also convention exclusives? Because this is on the main page under the FAQs

"What are Kickstarter Exclusives
Kickstarter Exclusives are game pieces that will only be available through the Kickstarter and Conventions."

Which is it? The Kickstarter exclusives are, as Kevin said, exclusive to only Kickstarter? Or is Kevin wrong, and it will also be sold at conventions?
(If that comes off as being stand-off-ish, I apologize. That's not my intent.)

Far as I recall, only 3 things are actually KS exclusives; the SDF-1, the objective markers, and the Battlefoam bag. There's some fuzziness based on some of the images saying only one or the other, but the announcing updates having conflicting information, but off hand, that should basically be your list.

Which means that only some backers are getting outright exclusives (depending on how many Ricks and Roys they decide to sell next year at Gencon, at least), because as the "non-figure add ons", I suspect they weren't exactly being picked up by everyone.

[Killer Cyborg]

How about this one, a waitress takes an order from a you, then 20 minutes later another couple comes in, and they order the same thing, and she gives them your order, does that make it fair ?

NOT a good comparison.
Palladium isn't giving out other people's products at GenCon.

More accurate would be that you call in an order for delivery, then get mad that the restaurant is selling the same kind of food that you ordered out of a kiosk at a local festival.

[Forar]

.... First Contact retails for $99.95. It's only the boxed set. How is that $130 worth retail?

From the Kickstarter:
"FIRST CONTACT: All First Contact backers receive a copy of the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ boxed game."

To be pedantic, it has an MSRP of $100.

It's selling online for $76 right now.

*sad trombone*

It contains roughly $180 worth of stuff if someone was an idiot and instead of buying a Core Box they bought all of the expansions it contains instead. But one would have to be truly bad at math to do such a thing.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have no salt in this game one way or the other. I didn't contribute, and the closest I ever got to Robotech was playing with my big sister's Jetfire transformer as a little kid when she wasn't around (for which I usually got tickle-tortured). I might take up some kind of wargaming with my son in the next few years. Whether we do Robotech RPG Tactics ($99 for the starter kit) or Warhammer 40k ($94 for the current edition starting kit) will depend on our interests, the value we see in each product, and other people we could play with.

What's interesting to me about this whole process is the numbers. In particular:
59% of Kickstarter efforts fail to meet their funding goals.
Of those design-based projects that do meet their funding goals, only 25% deliver on time; The middle 50% deliver after 8 months of delay. Larger projects (RRT definitely qualifies as large) tend to have bigger delays. Overfunded projects (RRT again qualifies) tend to have bigger delays as well. Given these factors, the RRT Kickstarter project is delivering on a fairly typical timetable.

This was an ambitious project that became more ambitious as a result of the overwhelming financial support it received. No-one is getting hosed here. Kickstarter makes no guarantees that a project will be successful, meet backer expectations, deliver on time, deliver anything at all, or have the money actually get spent on the project.

I'm not familiar with the play-by-play or who said what when. I can understand the frustration of the contributors with the delays, even if they are fairly standard for this kind of Kickstarter. I can understand the indignation of those over the "absence of vote = yes" approach to this poll, even if, as it appears, 80%+ of those responding are saying yes anyway. I can also understand the importance of Gen Con to the successful commercial launch of RRT, and the need to make executive business decisions that don't make everyone happy.

The best kind of deals are the ones where everyone wins. As far as I can tell, this project is set to deliver the promised goods to the backers. Hence, they win. Palladium and Ninja Division got their project funded without having to risk their companies' financial capital. They win, too. Still, these wins are small potatoes.

The big win for everyone would be if this game becomes a big hit. More buyers means more players. More players means the backers have more people to play with. It means more people can have the kind of fun my cousin and I did at the RRT demo back in October at FanFare. That's what it's all about, right? For Palladium and Ninja Division, a big hit means revenue, business, and the opportunity to make more money with supplements and extras like that SDF thingy the Robotech guys keep talking about on the various munchkin threads.

Well said.

[Killer Cyborg]

How about this one, a waitress takes an order from a you, then 20 minutes later another couple comes in, and they order the same thing, and she gives them your order, does that make it fair ?

Fair, no. Illegal, hell no. Reasons for a law suit, get real.
And your analogy is not even close to what is happening unless PB gets back from Gen Con and doesn't have enough box sets to fill the pledges.

and this is why I blocked you on FB because the analogy is the same, we ordered product from PB witht he promise we would get it first, now PB is giving the product to someone else first, that's false advertising, andis fraud plain and simple, you may have given them the right to do that to you and your pledge, does not give them the right to do it to me or my pledges.

Palladium isn't giving anybody YOUR order.

[Forar]

How about this one, a waitress takes an order from a you, then 20 minutes later another couple comes in, and they order the same thing, and she gives them your order, does that make it fair ?

NOT a good comparison.
Palladium isn't giving out other people's products at GenCon.

More accurate would be that you call in an order for delivery, then get mad that the restaurant is selling the same kind of food that you ordered out of a kiosk at a local festival.

It could be highly accurate.

For all we know container 2 will end up in port for an extra month because some itchy customs guy found a white powder on the ship and needs to search every last box for cocaine/anthrax/pure uncut baby powder.

Suddenly those missing core boxes and add ons would be extremely useful.

And before anyone says it, looking over the last year and a half, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that Murphy isn't going to continue to kick their asses.

[Killer Cyborg]

How about this one, a waitress takes an order from a you, then 20 minutes later another couple comes in, and they order the same thing, and she gives them your order, does that make it fair ?

NOT a good comparison.
Palladium isn't giving out other people's products at GenCon.

More accurate would be that you call in an order for delivery, then get mad that the restaurant is selling the same kind of food that you ordered out of a kiosk at a local festival.

It could be highly accurate.

But, as of now, isn't.

[Sureshot]

Nice talking with you Maryann. We may not agree on much yet it was fun debating with someone. Even if we are on opposite ends.

I'm just curious. What kind if reprisals would PB truly do. I can understand wanting to vote yes to get one minus. Acting like one is forced to because PB might retaliate is well dumb. If PB and by extension Kwvin were to actually do something he and the compan could get into major trouble. Seems more like a rationalization to get the minis while trying not to feel guilty about voting no. PB retaliating...give me a break.

[Forar]

Actually you can get the box game for $67.50 and the expansions for around $22 ea. at Miniature Market.

Nah, my source has free shipping on the core box, even to Canada. I get hit for an arm and a leg at Miniature Market and Cool Stuff Inc and any number of the 'hot spots' y'all get to enjoy in the states.

[Kendachi]

Did I put my money($650 or so of it at least) where my mouth is? Yes

Funny, that puts you just behind my portion of my group's contribution. Fancy that.

[At least I know where you stand. Or don't, doormat.

Forar, any comments on how classy this is?? I can wait.

Nope, you fight your own fights with Kendachi.

Besides, he knows precisely how classy he is, and if someone's trying to make me the grand arbiter of classiness, I'm not falling for that. Again.

Why are you asking Forar about a statement I directed at Marcus? If you think PB's doing just fine, great.

Mind you, I did have a top hat and monocle on when I posted that. So, Nyan.

[Marcus]

[At least I know where you stand. Or don't, doormat.

Forar, any comments on how classy this is?? I can wait.

Nope, you fight your own fights with Kendachi.

Besides, he knows precisely how classy he is, and if someone's trying to make me the grand arbiter of classiness, I'm not falling for that. Again.

And there is no need to. Kendachi called me that and I don't care, so why should you?

[NMI]

Again, I understand that some of you are upset/angry about the overall situation with this Kickstarter and the various delays, decisions, etc... about it. I am a backer too. However, I am not being belligerent about it, nor am I belittling anyone for having a differing opinion than me.

Everyone needs to act like the adults that you are [unless you are an actual minor, which I doubt since there is no one in the COPPA group] and learn how to discuss/voice your opinion with being insulting or crude about it.

And as a bit of advice - Unless you are a lawyer, not just friends with a lawyer or know some lawyers but an actual lawyer, you probably should not be giving out legal advice. On the flip side, people, you should only accept and acknowledge the legal advice of an actual lawyer and not some armchair, weekend, Google-empowered lawyer.

[Jorel]

Was this your ultimate doomsday scenario Rick? What if the ships sink and there isn't a product to be sold at GenCon. Then who will you be suing?

[13eowulf]

Was this your ultimate doomsday scenario Rick? What if the ships sink and there isn't a product to be sold at GenCon. Then who will you be suing?

Well now that you brought it up in advance, as the Customer Service Director of Northern Gun (a Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Palladium Books, seeing as they invented it, and is the only source for all official NG products), that probably means Rick will blame and want to sue you.

Which means he will include your fellow NG directors and other corporate officers by extension. And then will expand that to Palladium, for "lying" about the ship, cause they knew it was going to sink, on account of the Corporate Officers of NG knew about it, since one of them mentioned it here.

It probably now includes me, for making this post.

Then it will expand to Microsoft, LG, Acer, and HP, for providing the equipment I used to post this message....

[Warshield73]

Was this your ultimate doomsday scenario Rick? What if the ships sink and there isn't a product to be sold at GenCon. Then who will you be suing?

Well now that you brought it up in advance, as the Customer Service Director of Northern Gun (a Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Palladium Books, seeing as they invented it, and is the only source for all official NG products), that probably means Rick will blame and want to sue you.

Which means he will include your fellow NG directors and other corporate officers by extension. And then will expand that to Palladium, for "lying" about the ship, cause they knew it was going to sink, on account of the Corporate Officers of NG knew about it, since one of them mentioned it here.

It probably now includes me, for making this post.

Then it will expand to Microsoft, LG, Acer, and HP, for providing the equipment I used to post this message....

As Director of Robotics of Northern Gun Industries I have no knowledge of the sinking ship or of the NG-HC1000 Dragonfly, Tank and Robot Killer Hover-Chopper that allegedly sunk it.

If I swear this on a stack of imaginary bibles can this count as my deposition?

[NMI]

Was this your ultimate doomsday scenario Rick? What if the ships sink and there isn't a product to be sold at GenCon. Then who will you be suing?

No one, the suit only goes thru if PB sells physical product before Backers get theirs.

You realize there are other entities involved in this as well right?

Gen Con for allowing Palladium to sell
Ninja Division / Soda Pop Games
Harmony Gold

You going to g after all of them or just Palladium since their name is first on the box?

[Kryptt]

Was this your ultimate doomsday scenario Rick? What if the ships sink and there isn't a product to be sold at GenCon. Then who will you be suing?

No one, the suit only goes thru if PB sells physical product before Backers get theirs.

You realize there are other entities involved in this as well right?

Gen Con for allowing Palladium to sell
Ninja Division / Soda Pop Games
Harmony Gold

You going to g after all of them or just Palladium since their name is first on the box?

I'm sorry but didn't you post earlier to not attack each other and behave like adults? My friend your free to express your opinion of course, but your being disingenuous and hypocritical for not following your own rules. And please don't bother sending me a pm. I don't want to argue with you in private or here. I'm only saying follow your own advice.

[Jefffar]

Technically, now the KS backers are making the decision as Kevin has put it in their hands.

[rosco60559]

I'm one of the few that refuse to say yay or nay due to the no response is a yes.

Update 148 we're told this is happening, period. Then the backlash happens. Just looks like bad flashbacks of a parent going cause I said so while shaking a finger.

Update 149, a major back pedal happens, we're "asked" permission with a vote with no response is a yes to provoke a reply? If I don't cast a ballot for what ever loonie is running for office the vote doesn't apply for either side. Same should apply here. I'm fine with losing fair and square like what's happening with ACTUAL votes not with the way this is set up.

If Kevin/pb is that worried about the yes vote not coming through why ask us to vote at all?

[Giant2005]

One - how do we know for certain it's 200?

Second - every time I read "It's Palladium, you should have known there would be delays and questionable decisions!", I think those people should be ashamed of themselves.

Ashamed.

I think the real shame lies in the hands of the supposed "fans".
Palladium is a fan-based company that has futily done everything it can to keep the fans happy because Kevin just doesn't seem to realize that the concept of "fandom" has gone extinct. He changed the sculpts at great cost to himself because the "fans" didn't like the old ones. The "fans" were complaining about the delays so he decided to split the product into two waves, taking the extra postage costs as his own purely because he wanted the "fans" to get some product quicker. Now the "fans" don't like him selling the game at Gencon, so he has given them the choice in whether or not it happens even with full knowledge of the potentially significant impact that loss of publicity could have on the game. Yet nothing he does could ever make them happy.
It isn't even a case of "give them an inch and they take a mile," Kevin isn't even considering giving an inch - he is happily handing out full miles with full knowledge of the consequences and yet no-one shows even the slightest form of respect. Fandom is a thing of the past. Fandom has devolved into something more sinister by what I like to refer to as the "Star Wars" effect. Palladium and Robotech both suffer from the same ailment that Star Wars suffered at the hands of its fans - those special snowflake "fans" feel the need to be more of a fan than all of the other fans and can only do so by noticing imaginary flaws that only "true fans" like them can notice; thus signifying that they are the greatest fans of all.
Palladium's issue is that they are trying to be a "fan company" in a world where "fandom" doesn't exist. These "uber fans" can no longer see anything but these flaws they have imagined and regardless of what sacrifices are made to cater to their needs, they will forever only be able to see more flaws.

[FoxFang]

Stand back and marvel, everyone. You are making history. I've heard legend and tales of the great flame wars. The pedantic squabbles over arguably trivial protocol in who's going to get what product first. There is no question that everyone will get their products. Whether they still want them or not.

Still, years from now, I and other popcorn butter-stained veterans will be able to regale our grandchildren with the tales of how we were there. How we will never forget where we were and what we were doing as the great rage storm of Gen Con 2014 howled on the internet. We smelled the smoke, felt the heat of the flames and listened to the sizzling staccato reports of accusations, threats, insults, disappointment, anger, pity, rage, and hatred volley above our heads like errant cannon fire. Bluster was made, the charge and counter charge of deeply held opinions and irrational emotional outbursts leaving egos broken bruised and shattered like the scattered toy soldiers that everyone had assembled to help create in the first place. I will be able to look up with that caffeine addled thousand yard stare. And I will bear witness to this maelstrom, forever changing all that emerged from it. Somehow whole, but never again to be the same.

Now that I've waxed a little prosaic on my amusement, we return you to our regularly scheduled crisis.

And for the record. I'm a backer. 1K. Standing by for supply drop.

[Killer Cyborg]

He promises us backers that we will get our product before anyone else, is it too much to ask him to keep his word?

Considering the cost to Palladium for not bringing the product to GenCon, versus the benefit of some people saying "I got mine first"....?

Yes.

(Well, actually, it's not too much to ASK- that's what the vote is about. Ask away.)

[jreece06]

Everyone seems to think those who are angry about this are only angry about the timeline.

I know that isn't the case, because while the timeline is frustrating, the waitress analogy given above is pretty much how I feel about it. It was given with good intention, and just turned out wrong.

The lie came later, as people have posted, saying backers would at least be shipped out first. This is something they DO have control over. Lets not kid ourselves here.

In this case, the above Hostess says to you "I'll seat you next", but then someone in a nicer suit walks in, and they give them a table right away.

Does this happen? Yes.
Is it illegal? no.
Is it good customer service? hell no.

Breaking trust with your customers is NEVER a good plan. It sets a precedent that you are willing to lie to your customer. How many restaurants would you frequent if you couldn't believe your server?

Yes, they might sell all 200 copies of everything at Gencon... but are people actually going to sit there and build models? I doubt it.

And yes, they might make 500 bucks a shot... a total of 10 grand... just from that.

But as fans read up on this, some will care (and some won't) about the lie. Some will come to the conclusion "I don't want to be lied to."

People were always going to get their stuff before me, I'm out of the USA. I can live with that.

But does it really make me some kind of giant ******* for being upset that a company I gave a chunk of money to lied to me?

[rosco60559]

Cyborg dude, the vote is an illusion of choice. Not everyone will vote or bother to look at the update email. The backers were all ready treated like little kids being told this is what's happening. The vote is set up so someone gets his way before any votes are cast. Like I stated I'm fine losing to the yes side fair and square, not when they win out of the gate.
Why is it too much to expect someone to keep their word now a days?

[Steve Dubya]

There's a way that would probably assuage a lot of folks feelings as well as guarantee that Palladium has product to sell at Gen Con (which, at current time, they do not).

They need to air freight in a couple of pallets for the sole purpose of selling these for marketing purposes.

Sure, the cost of shipping these on short notice would surely eat into any possibly profits made by selling boxes at Gen Con, but this isn't about the short term - it's about the long term success of the game, right?

This way the boxes on the boat would still be going to the backers, and the ones that got flown in would be for PR purposes pretty much only.

[Sureshot]

I think they should have been more honest and admit selling at Gencon was purely nothing but a cash grab. Which I'm okay with. The issue for me was never them making more profit. It's that the backers got somewhat screwed over. Giving all kinds of rationalizations to cover up wanting to make more money is never a good thing. I see it everyday at my workplace. Customers want the internet price. The company refuses to honor the internet price. We can choose from a whole list of rationalizations. In the end it comes down to them wanting the consumer to buy it at full price in store. As much as people think consumers are dumb they are not. They take notice of the price difference. Don't care the reasons (rationalizations) why and shop online. Why is why we make a profit still. Yet nowhere what we used too.

Kevin and PB should just be honest. No rationalizations about the health of the game. Or doing it for the backers or the fans. Or anything else. Just be upfront and admit to wanting to make more money.

[Giant2005]

Everyone seems to think those who are angry about this are only angry about the timeline.

I know that isn't the case, because while the timeline is frustrating, the waitress analogy given above is pretty much how I feel about it. It was given with good intention, and just turned out wrong.

The lie came later, as people have posted, saying backers would at least be shipped out first. This is something they DO have control over. Lets not kid ourselves here.

In this case, the above Hostess says to you "I'll seat you next", but then someone in a nicer suit walks in, and they give them a table right away.

Does this happen? Yes.
Is it illegal? no.
Is it good customer service? hell no.

Breaking trust with your customers is NEVER a good plan. It sets a precedent that you are willing to lie to your customer. How many restaurants would you frequent if you couldn't believe your server?

The man in the suit isn't just a customer in a fancy suit, he is also a famous food critic who's opinion the people respect. You can get your food ahead of him and enjoy the meal you love so much, or you can let the critic be served first so he writes a good review of the restaurant, ensuring that the restaurant gets the publicity it needs to keep its doors open and that that meal you wanted so much isn't your last at the restaurant you love.
Or you can greedily gobble down that meal ignoring the consequences of the food critic's opinion and revel in that momentary happiness while the restaurant you love forgoes its much needed publicity running the risk of closing its doors and going back to its Hotdog stand by the train station.
You are ignoring the potential of losing your favourite restaurant forever for the sake of a single meal.

[Forar]

The man in the suit isn't just a customer in a fancy suit, he is also a famous food critic who's opinion the people respect. You can get your food ahead of him and enjoy the meal you love so much, or you can let the critic be served first so he writes a good review of the restaurant, ensuring that the restaurant gets the publicity it needs to keep its doors open and that that meal you wanted so much isn't your last at the restaurant you love.
Or you can greedily gobble down that meal ignoring the consequences of the food critic's opinion and revel in that momentary happiness while the restaurant you love forgoes its much needed publicity running the risk of closing its doors and going back to its Hotdog stand by the train station.
You are ignoring the potential of losing your favourite restaurant forever for the sake of a single meal.

Untrue. A limited supply of product will likely be gobbled up by other vendors and early entry VIPs unless Palladium specifically restricts their ability to purchase. You're trying to equate Gencon with the 'fancy critic', but having zero product when the door opens and having zero product an hour later aren't going to be all that different.

They took a couple hundred Max and Miriya figures last year, and those sold out immediately, to hear it be told. And a good portion of them just ended up on ebay a few days later.

There's a disparity here. If they're only bringing 'a couple hundred' of each item, they're going to sell out in no time. If they're bringing "a couple hundred" (read: like 800+), they still risk running out quickly, but it's still a drop in the bucket of the tens of thousands of people who attend Gencon (I've heard over 50k tossed about), especially if some 'whale' or funded reseller gets their hands on a big pile of them.

Not that I have anything against resellers, but it just moves product further and further away from 'we want it in the hands of fans!' to 'look, your money spends just as well as anyone else's...'.

[Jorel]

I think the amount of negative Buzz were seeing preGenCon is just as important to note as the possible Buzz they could create at GenCon.

[Forar]

There's that as well.

Everyone has heard the saying "no publicity is bad publicity"?

It's a lie. There's definitely such a thing as bad publicity, and presumably the hope is that it's at least a wash, or a net positive, but that not a guarantee.

[Jorel]

Considering the month time that the buzz will be building on the internet I think there is quite a bit of damage done and once again Palladium has divided the backers. Every time that happens we seam to be seeing more and more on the negative side.

[jreece06]

Ironically, I used to write reviews for my university news paper... The first rule is to refuse preferential treatment.

No good critic is going to slam a restaurant for have good customer service... Ie- seating people in the order they arrive.

Also, food critics make reservations... Ie- they pre order

[Kryptt]

What's interesting to note about the votes is that several of the yes votes are begrudgingly so. There's several were they just show disgust that the vote is rigged no matter what. Either way there are several disgruntled backers who voted yes but don't like the way it's rigged.

[13eowulf]

What's interesting with the votes is at the last rough count I saw the Yes has over 1000, and the No less than 300.

[Grug]

I miss the good ol' days. When people were just angry over unrealistic release dates...

[Jorel]

What's interesting with the votes is at the last rough count I saw the Yes has over 1000, and the No less than 300.

That is still 300 backers that now think negatively of PB. That is not a small number.

[Kryptt]

What's interesting with the votes is at the last rough count I saw the Yes has over 1000, and the No less than 300.

Greetings and salutations. I respect that many backers are voting yes and that they heavily outnumber the no's. I can acknowledge it. By your post does this mean your blatenly ignoring why some are voting yes? Or it doesn't matter why as long as it's yes? Safe journeys

[Forar]

Last I saw it's around 5 to 1. 1,250 or so to 250?

16% of a population that large (assuming the ratio stays roughly true) isn't something to sneeze at.

Even more impressive is that around a quarter of the backers have even voted. It's slowed to a trickle, but a massive turn out all the same. 4 to 6 times the turn out during the "Spartangate" debacle.

[13eowulf]

What's interesting with the votes is at the last rough count I saw the Yes has over 1000, and the No less than 300.

Greetings and salutations. I respect that many backers are voting yes and that they heavily outnumber the no's. I can acknowledge it. By your post does this mean your blatenly ignoring why some are voting yes? Or it doesn't matter why as long as it's yes? Safe journeys

By my post I am indicating that at this time there are over a thousand yes votes, and less than three hundred no votes.
It is really quite clear.

But thanks for attempting to put words in my mouth, figuratively speaking. I appreciate the token effort to attempt to discredit me while trying to sound polite in obvious contrast to the rest of your post. Good Job.

However that does not change the fact that it appears more people are voting than many suspected early on, and despite attempts to claim that some of the Yes votes are not really Yes votes the fact remains there are more than 3 Yes votes to ever one No vote.

Curious: How do you think I voted?

[Kryptt]

Greetings and salutations. I think you misread my post. I acknowledge that your right about the yes votes. In fact I agree. I will make another attempt. Have you noticed that several of the yes votes are followed by comments that many yes votes are also criticizing PB? No need for rancor friend. Safe journeys.

[13eowulf]

Greetings and salutations. I think you misread my post. I acknowledge that your right about the yes votes. In fact I agree. I will make another attempt. Have you noticed that several of the yes votes are followed by comments that many yes votes are also criticizing PB? No need for rancor friend. Safe journeys.

I have read many Yes votes who acknowledge that while personally they are unhappy with the overall state of affairs (with various short to very long winded descriptions there of) they recognize the importance of GenCon and are voting yes out of a desire to see the product succeed.
That reads to me not as reluctant, but as making a choice based on weighing the facts in their own opinion (as not everyone will look at the same facts and come to the same opinion) and voting how the feel it is best to vote.

Are those the votes you are referring to as 'reluctant'?

[13eowulf]

Greetings and salutations. I think you misread my post. I acknowledge that your right about the yes votes. In fact I agree. I will make another attempt. Have you noticed that several of the yes votes are followed by comments that many yes votes are also criticizing PB? No need for rancor friend. Safe journeys.

Also to note some posters on other forums are saying they voted yes for fear of retaliation from PB which I find disturbing, since I don't think PB would sink so low as to retaliate, but i'm not them so I can't say.

I find fear mongering to be disturbing as well. Which I feel that some of those stating such are doing. Others genuinely fear it. I think that says more about them than it does Palladium.

[Kryptt]

Greetings and salutations. I think you misread my post. I acknowledge that your right about the yes votes. In fact I agree. I will make another attempt. Have you noticed that several of the yes votes are followed by comments that many yes votes are also criticizing PB? No need for rancor friend. Safe journeys.

I have read many Yes votes who acknowledge that while personally they are unhappy with the overall state of affairs (with various short to very long winded descriptions there of) they recognize the importance of GenCon and are voting yes out of a desire to see the product succeed.
That reads to me not as reluctant, but as making a choice based on weighing the facts in their own opinion (as not everyone will look at the same facts and come to the same opinion) and voting how the feel it is best to vote.

Are those the votes you are referring to as 'reluctant'?

Greetings and salutations. Yes, and thank you. Safe journeys.

[13eowulf]

Greetings and salutations. I think you misread my post. I acknowledge that your right about the yes votes. In fact I agree. I will make another attempt. Have you noticed that several of the yes votes are followed by comments that many yes votes are also criticizing PB? No need for rancor friend. Safe journeys.

I have read many Yes votes who acknowledge that while personally they are unhappy with the overall state of affairs (with various short to very long winded descriptions there of) they recognize the importance of GenCon and are voting yes out of a desire to see the product succeed.
That reads to me not as reluctant, but as making a choice based on weighing the facts in their own opinion (as not everyone will look at the same facts and come to the same opinion) and voting how the feel it is best to vote.

Are those the votes you are referring to as 'reluctant'?

Greetings and salutations. Yes, and thank you. Safe journeys.

Since most quite clearly state their intentions and reasoning, how did you come to the conclusion that they are reluctant?

[13eowulf]

Greetings and salutations. I think you misread my post. I acknowledge that your right about the yes votes. In fact I agree. I will make another attempt. Have you noticed that several of the yes votes are followed by comments that many yes votes are also criticizing PB? No need for rancor friend. Safe journeys.

Also to note some posters on other forums are saying they voted yes for fear of retaliation from PB which I find disturbing, since I don't think PB would sink so low as to retaliate, but i'm not them so I can't say.

I find fear mongering to be disturbing as well. Which I feel that some of those stating such are doing. Others genuinely fear it. I think that says more about them than it does Palladium.

yeah but it doesn't help when pro-palladium people are saying that the no backers will probably be on the bottom of the list for delivery either.

On that statement I call shenanigans. I have seen no 'pro-palladium' people stating that as a fact, as you are saying above.
I have seen a few comments on how the 'no' people 'should' be on the bottom, and how it would 'serve them right' (Note: I have not said those things, nor do I think them), however most of those same people have acknowledged that such is not likely to happen.

[jreece06]

Ninjabunny ftw

[13eowulf]

Also to note some posters on other forums are saying they voted yes for fear of retaliation from PB which I find disturbing, since I don't think PB would sink so low as to retaliate, but i'm not them so I can't say.

I find fear mongering to be disturbing as well. Which I feel that some of those stating such are doing. Others genuinely fear it. I think that says more about them than it does Palladium.

yeah but it doesn't help when pro-palladium people are saying that the no backers will probably be on the bottom of the list for delivery either.

On that statement I call shenanigans. I have seen no 'pro-palladium' people stating that as a fact, as you are saying above.
I have seen a few comments on how the 'no' people 'should' be on the bottom, and how it would 'serve them right' (Note: I have not said those things, nor do I think them), however most of those same people have acknowledged that such is not likely to happen.

you are right that should be amended to read as should.

It is also worth noting that such statements only arose after the first statements from those that claimed to fear such appeared. And it has only been in (mostly) now deleted threads, often in response to some others hurling even more explicit insults (and then that person hurling the insults admitted to being a scalper).