Kindle Worlds for Palladium-based stories?

[Josh Hilden]

I literally have a least 2 dozen short stories I started when I was still working with Palladium I could retool and publish with zero problems.

[Hotrod]

Like I've said... win win win. Even if Palladium only averaged $100 a month that's a hundred bucks they wouldn't have had before.

Win for Palladium in the form of free advertising and money
Win for the authors in the form of money
Win for Amazon in the form of money
Win for the fans who want to see some IP-based fiction.

That's a win^4. Any more dimensions and it starts becoming a megaverse of win.

[NMI]

Hilden, you would probably be the best person at this point to be able to answer this - Why does Amazon need IP rights?

[Josh Hilden]

All the IP rights are retained by the IP holder and they set the content guides. As long as the guide doesn't break Amazon's very broad guidelines Amazon only does quality control mostly through proof readers and the community.

[Josh Hilden]

I am currently working on a GI Joe Serial for Kindle Worlds.

[Killer Cyborg]

I literally have a least 2 dozen short stories I started when I was still working with Palladium I could retool and publish with zero problems.

I have books worth of Rifts stuff in my head.
I just haven't bothered to write it because I can't afford to write for free.
Kindle Worlds would give me the opportunity to afford to write it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Like I've said... win win win. Even if Palladium only averaged $100 a month that's a hundred bucks they wouldn't have had before.

Yup.
And with the number of people just on this website who make money already through their writing in one way or another, combined with the constant clamor for new product, I suspect it would be way more than $100.

[Killer Cyborg]

Someone contact palladium directly and tell them am these facts! They can't lose on this and they literally have nothing to do but set guidelines and rack in the cash!

Yup.

[Killer Cyborg]

Someone contact palladium directly and tell them am these facts! They can't lose on this and they literally have nothing to do but set guidelines and rack in the cash!

I agree to the first part.

Those of you with material you want to place, should bind together and pitch it.

That way Palladium can see how many stories you guys have written and are interested in posting through kindle.

Unfortunately, my experience with giving Palladium stuff I've written is very much like chucking it down a well.
Only without the splash to let me know what happened.

[Shark_Force]

i don't think he's saying send it to kevin... i think he's saying let kevin know that you're interested. if 50 people say they want to write stories, and 200 people say they want to buy stories, it may be enough to motivate him to act.

also, the star wars franchise had a lot more goodwill in the first place. no, the star wars holiday special didn't destroy the franchise. but PBs IP is not nearly as widely liked.

[Reagren Wright]

The other thing I see being an issue. If anyone can write something, you're going to get some good, some bad, and some awful.
And there are people on the boards who have no trouble telling you how awful your stuff is. Now its probably a good thing if
Palladium (Kevin) have no say on who writes what because it sounds like the company gets paid anyway. But the company likes
to put its best product forward, another reason they take so much time working on material. But in the past some of their not
so well work has seen print (without saying we know which books they are) and those writers as well as artists have not taken
the criticism well. So while the notion is very tempting for this writer and freelancer, and I do see the positives, I'm going to
have to stay on the abstain side. Better to have the best material see print by those qualified to make such a judgement. Your
mother, friends, even teachers may tell you your whole life you're a great artist, dancer, writer, poet, etc, but the moment
professionals and those who do it for a living judge you, and the words are not kind. Its a hurtful feeling that some will never be
ready for.

[Josh Hilden]

If you can't at least tolerate criticism don't publish. I've received some harsh criticisms, some warranted and some not. If you let critics determine your writing style and career you might as well not write at all.

How does a writer get better if they don't put it out there again and again? Seriously nothing is ever perfect and taste is subjective at best and irrelevant at worse. Why should writers not have an opportunity to play in the sandbox? There are some horrible Star Wars and Star Trek novels out there but they haven't stopped me from loving the franchises.

[Hotrod]

Agreed. It's better to give aspiring authors a chance to sink or swim in the public eye than have their stories stay eternally mired in Palladium's ever-growing slush pile.

[Killer Cyborg]

The other thing I see being an issue. If anyone can write something, you're going to get some good, some bad, and some awful.
And there are people on the boards who have no trouble telling you how awful your stuff is. Now its probably a good thing if
Palladium (Kevin) have no say on who writes what because it sounds like the company gets paid anyway. But the company likes
to put its best product forward, another reason they take so much time working on material. But in the past some of their not
so well work has seen print (without saying we know which books they are) and those writers as well as artists have not taken
the criticism well. So while the notion is very tempting for this writer and freelancer, and I do see the positives, I'm going to
have to stay on the abstain side. Better to have the best material see print by those qualified to make such a judgement. Your
mother, friends, even teachers may tell you your whole life you're a great artist, dancer, writer, poet, etc, but the moment
professionals and those who do it for a living judge you, and the words are not kind. Its a hurtful feeling that some will never be
ready for.

That's the thing- this isn't company product.
This is just fanfic.
The buyers know this.
For those who don't understand, a thorough disclaimer at the front of every ebook could explain things.

[Killer Cyborg]

Agreed. It's better to give aspiring authors a chance to sink or swim in the public eye than have their stories stay eternally mired in Palladium's ever-growing slush pile.

Right.

[Shark_Force]

That's the thing- this isn't company product.
This is just fanfic.
The buyers know this.
For those who don't understand, a thorough disclaimer at the front of every ebook could explain things.

i still say there's a fairly large difference between PB and many of the other IPs available for use through kindle worlds.

several of those IPs are TV shows that realistically are going to be dead in a few years anyways. you may as well milk that show for all it's worth now, because in 20 years nostalgia isn't likely to do anything more than leave that show as a vague blur anyways; you'll be lucky if they even remember you as "that show with the people who did stuff".

again, several of those IPs have already invested a significant amount of resources into introducing their IP to others. the stories are very unlikely to be anyone's first contact with the IP.

in contrast, palladium has been around for many years, as have many of the IPs you would all like to write for. damage done to their image is something that not only might last for a while, but something which already has lasted for quite a while. and for many people, a story set in one of palladium's settings would be their first introduction to them.

and palladium's settings are really the main thing keeping them going... i know people who don't mind the palladium rules. i know people who've tweaked those rules so much that they're perfectly ok with their version. i don't know any people who think that the megaversal system is the key selling point of palladium's games... it's their settings. the settings are what impacts people. even those who have had bad experiences with palladium products i frequently hear the complaint that they like the setting, but the rules are bloody awful.

so these settings are basically the main selling point palladium has to offer. getting those introduced to new people is great, particularly since palladium has such a low level of presence elsewhere in terms of advertising... *if* the product is good. you really want your first impression to be a good one.

[Spinachcat]

This is a good idea that deserves attention and analysis. The rights issue needs to be examined more.

Somebody should email Kevin & Alex with explanation and links.

[Killer Cyborg]

If they're not already familiar with Rifts, why reread the fanfic?

[Subjugator]

I give a qualified 'yes.' If it doesn't take a lot of their resources, screw them out of IP rights, violate a contract, etc, I think this would be great. My concern is that it'd probably take a lot of editing time to make sure it was something worthy of release.

I'd love to see it happen, though!

[Josh Hilden]

Palladium would NOT be doing the editing, that's not how Kindle Publishing works. Palladium gives the creator guidelines and then the writer ad Amazon do the rest.

[Warshield73]

First, I want to point this out. A lot of you through around KSs resistance to letting go of his IPs in anyway as if he just let go of them nothing bad could possibly happen.

Just a brief reminder. One of his best friends stole all his money and a large video game company used it's larger wallet to try and gut his most important IP (and life's work) so let us try to remember that when we are slamming the man.

Second, I just want to say that I would love to see this work out and tons of fanfic out there, maybe even some comics

But, I voted abstain, trending towards no, for several reasons.

Amazon's business practices: If any of you watch Colbert you know what I am talking about, and he is in a very large and growing boat. If I had an IP that Jerry Bruckheimer had paid for the rights for for 10+ years I wouldn't let Amazon near it.

For that matter, if they allow Rifts fan fic on Amazon would that violate the agreement with Bruckheimer? They also had to sign an agreement with Trion when they..what's a polite word for trying to steal something...settled out of court, would it violate that agreement. I don't know the answer to this which is my main reason for abstaining.

Anytime you let someone else do something with your IP you weaken it, period. Look at the mess that is Robotech.

What happens when a Rifts movie or video game comes that has one part that bares some similarity to a fan fic written 4 or 5 years earlier that only 20 people have read? Do you really think that a little disclaimer is going to stop them from suing? Look at the children and grand children suing over successful comic characters decades after they were created for an existing company. Palladium can not afford that liability.

I am waiting to see the first big law suits over a KW property, that is the only way any of you know how it will work. I looked over the worlds and I did not see D&D or any Steve Jackson properties. I saw a few CW shows, a few cancelled shows, and GI Joe. Which means a lot of people seem to have an issue with this not just KS.

I know people on here keep saying that

That's the thing- this isn't company product.
This is just fanfic.
The buyers know this.
For those who don't understand, a thorough disclaimer at the front of every ebook could explain things.

and it is, in one sense true, but in a very real consumer sense, it's not.

If new readers see Rifts on KW, like it, buy 3 stories and all are crap they will associate that with PB, no matter what. It is just the way human psychology works, ask anyone in PR or advertising. If you think that no new readers will go, just existing fans than I have to ask what's the point.

Like I've said... win win win. Even if Palladium only averaged $100 a month that's a hundred bucks they wouldn't have had before.

Win for Palladium in the form of free advertising and money
Win for the authors in the form of money
Win for Amazon in the form of money
Win for the fans who want to see some IP-based fiction.

That's a win^4. Any more dimensions and it starts becoming a megaverse of win.

I would agree with this except,
1. if they spend more on legal fees defending there IPs then it is a huge loss.
2. despite what some people say, there is such a thing as bad publicity

I agree it is a big win for Amazon and the writers, I just am not sure it does anything for PB. I would have to know a lot more about how the KW releases will stand up in court for me to say yes.

[Shark_Force]

If they're not already familiar with Rifts, why reread the fanfic?

if it's not going to be reaching new people, palladium already has a route for aspiring authors to reach the palladium fanbase. one which they have full control over. if palladium suddenly had a massive influx of amazing material for the rifter, especially if it didn't take much editing to get it ready, I would suspect they'd consider releasing an extra special edition or something like that. in fact, I'm not too clear on it, but didn't they already release one extra rifter (as a PDF) as a special thing?

[Josh Hilden]

If you don'r work in the Indie Publishing community I wouldn't stand 100% Colbert, there are more than two sides to everything.

You know what though, this is a thought game at best because I doubt it will ever happen.

I have no idea how the contract with JB is written but considering fan stories in the Rifter are still allowed I'm guessing it's all kosher.

I can't see a single realistic downside to this.

1. Palladium will make money
2. Palladium does none of the heavy lifting
3. Palladium gets new exposure

[Killer Cyborg]

If they're not already familiar with Rifts, why reread the fanfic?

if it's not going to be reaching new people, palladium already has a route for aspiring authors to reach the palladium fanbase. one which they have full control over. if palladium suddenly had a massive influx of amazing material for the rifter, especially if it didn't take much editing to get it ready, I would suspect they'd consider releasing an extra special edition or something like that. in fact, I'm not too clear on it, but didn't they already release one extra rifter (as a PDF) as a special thing?

One where Palladium has to expend time and resources to get a limited return.
The rifter is a bottleneck for product, and a drain of Palladium's time.


And it's not that it won't reach ANY new people.
The thing about good books is that people like to recommend them to their friends.
Word of mouth favor good fanfic over bad. People expect it to be bad, so they tend not to discuss it, but if something is good, they'll recommend it.
And, of course, there's the whole amazon rating system. If somebody reads a one-star fanfic for something they've never heard of, they deserve what they get.
But a 5-star story?
That'll be more likely to draw in outsiders.

[Josh Hilden]

If they're not already familiar with Rifts, why reread the fanfic?

if it's not going to be reaching new people, palladium already has a route for aspiring authors to reach the palladium fanbase. one which they have full control over. if palladium suddenly had a massive influx of amazing material for the rifter, especially if it didn't take much editing to get it ready, I would suspect they'd consider releasing an extra special edition or something like that. in fact, I'm not too clear on it, but didn't they already release one extra rifter (as a PDF) as a special thing?

The PDF (Rifter 0) was a fan creation.

The Rifter is not a good platform for fiction.

[Daniel Stoker]

I don’t buy the Rifter because outside of the occasional official stuff I don’t care for most of the fan created items. I’ve probably made my opinion on the Janissaries clear more than once, but the represent some of the more annoying stuff that I don’t see a point in paying money for. And I’m sure there are some real gems I’m missing there, but I just didn’t find it worth my money. Now I do miss reading the stories there even if I think the Cosmoknight one was going off the rails rather early on, but still I’d love to run across more fiction like that and this is a format that would easily appeal to me even though the Rifter doesn’t.


Daniel Stoker

[Killer Cyborg]

I second the whole "not buying rifters" sentiment.

[Warshield73]

Let me just say that I have been an Amazon customer for 13 years. I can not remember the last song, DVD, or book that I bought from someone else. I even get most of my work clothes through them. I am a very lazy shopper and they make it too easy.

But, some of there business practices scare the crap out of me and I give them as little personal information as I can get away with.

If you don'r work in the Indie Publishing community I wouldn't stand 100% Colbert, there are more than two sides to everything.

Agreed and I admitted I did not know enough that is why I abstained, but since you are in the Indie Publishing Community you could hardly be considered unbiased.

As a matter of fact after spending an hour going over the terms of use and FAQs most of what I saw seems to be protections for the writer and very little for the holder of the IP.

You know what though, this is a thought game at best because I doubt it will ever happen.

Agreed, although I think you and I ascribe radically different reasons for PB not doing this. Again, I would really like to see this I just don't think it is worth the risk.

I have no idea how the contract with JB is written but considering fan stories in the Rifter are still allowed I'm guessing it's all kosher.

Rifter is a PB supplement, when people buy the rights to something they are pretty specific about who else gets to publish your IPs.

Now you can change me to a yes vote right here, and I will bend Kevin's ear about it at Gen Con and my last insider phone call for him to try and make it happen. Is there a copyright? Who holds the Copyright for the work? If PB maintains the copyright for all the fanfic (like they do in the Rifter)then you are right and there is no reason that I can see not to do it. If the writer holds it then it is death to an IP.

Think about it, if you are JB do you really want to try to produce a movie where there are dozens (maybe hundreds) of separately copyrighted stories for the IP where no matter what you do someone is going to be able to say "you stole that from me". Who in there right minds would do that to themselves.

I can't see a single realistic downside to this.

1. Palladium will make money
2. Palladium does none of the heavy lifting
3. Palladium gets new exposure

Again, I don't know if there are any downsides to this but I listed several, realistic since they happen all the time in publishing, downsides that none of us can address.

1. You said it yourself that it is likely to be very little money so that is hardly a reason
2. They have to create the publishing agreement and content quality guide at the least, and that is assuming you trust amazon to follow them which...I wouldn't so then you have to occasionally read a story or at least read parts of stories that people bring to your attention. Then you will have to update your content guide and repeat.
3. This to me is the one and only reason to do this. I think if good quality fiction for Rifts gets out there, raises public awareness, it could help PB break into other markets like comics or get the movie made. But, as I said, there can also be negative publicity from this and could reinforce the negative perception some have (even some on these forums) that PB is nothing but an amateur opperation.

As for the Rifter, I have been a subscriber since the beginning but I would agree not great for fiction. I prefer articles on gaming and GMing, fan creations, and the occasional official extras for books like Lemuria. Since Kevin is minimally involved it is not a bottleneck for production so I think it is worth it. Have to admit, it would not break my heart if it was converted to PDF only and just sold on drivethru.

[Warshield73]

I was thinking about this and had kind of an idea. Someone tell me if this is even possible. What if a group of volunteers (former & current freelancers, Rifter contributors, etc.) similar to MAs were to get together as a group of peer editors. People could submit there draft to a coordinator. The coordinator could hand it out to two or three people to read and get feedback from. When 2 of those peer editors PB could publish it on Amazon kindle, with it's own copyright, with at least some quality control. They could then split the money with the writer with a small payment to the editors.

Those of you who publish is this even remotely possible. I mean even as a thought exercise?

[Josh Hilden]

I doubt Kevin would go for it, but go ahead and query him I could definitely be wrong.

As a writer I would NEVER do that, I'm not giving a committee that kind of control over my work. I use editors but they work for me not the other way around.

[Warshield73]

I doubt Kevin would go for it, but go ahead and query him I could definitely be wrong.

As a writer I would NEVER do that, I'm not giving a committee that kind of control over my work. I use editors but they work for me not the other way around.

I agree KS would likely not want to do, largely due to time.

I am curious, you would never give this limited control to peer editors but you are expecting PB to give far greater control to fan writers by putting this on AW.

Also, I could be wrong but most of what I have read from people like J. Michael Strazynski and David Weber is that the editor works for the publisher. How on earth can you get real, useful, feedback from someone that you can just fire if you don't like what they say.

[Josh Hilden]

If I was under contract with a publisher absolutely I would work in that kind of setup.

But I and most KINDLE centric writers are self or indie publishing at best. We are responsible for our own quality control I hire my editors and pay them from my accounts. If it were a third party (Not Pally or Amazon) group and I was under no obligation to to take their notes I would think about it. But if Pally, or any of the licensors, exerted that much control then no I wouldn't without a clear independent contract.

[Josh Hilden]

How on earth can you get real, useful, feedback from someone that you can just fire if you don't like what they say.

This one I will answer separately.

The writer editor relationship is intense and highly personal. Both parties need to respect and trust one another. I trust my editor Jennifer to tell me the truth. She's not being paid to kiss my ass and tell me I **** golden nuggets. My writing has only gotten better and better since I found her. Sure I could fire her, I could also withdraw my book from a publisher and let it die if I didn't like the way things were going.

Only an idiot thinks they don't need an editor of that they are qualified to be their own final editor.

[Warshield73]

If I was under contract with a publisher absolutely I would work in that kind of setup.

But I and most KINDLE centric writers are self or indie publishing at best. We are responsible for our own quality control I hire my editors and pay them from my accounts. If it were a third party (Not Pally or Amazon) group and I was under no obligation to to take their notes I would think about it. But if Pally, or any of the licensors, exerted that much control then no I wouldn't without a clear independent contract.

I can understand that, and certainly for your own work I think it is completely understandable. When you are talking about someone else's IP though...I don't know. I mean if you are really self or indie publishing, why are you using someone else's IP?

If you are talking 3rd party and not required to take there notes, that just means they might as well not exist. I'm a teacher and when we tell that to district curriculum planners and model lesson providers it is a polite way of saying "buzz off", which I have done. From that point of view, I do understand why you wouldn't want to do it and why my idea would fall flat. You could never develop the trust with the editor and PB could never trust the writers with their IP.

How on earth can you get real, useful, feedback from someone that you can just fire if you don't like what they say.

This one I will answer separately.

The writer editor relationship is intense and highly personal. Both parties need to respect and trust one another. I trust my editor Jennifer to tell me the truth. She's not being paid to kiss my ass and tell me I **** golden nuggets. My writing has only gotten better and better since I found her. Sure I could fire her, I could also withdraw my book from a publisher and let it die if I didn't like the way things were going.

Only an idiot thinks they don't need an editor of that they are qualified to be their own final editor.

I believe when you say this and think you mean it. I also think that most people say this and very few mean it. And when it is your work, I think that is OK, you rise and fall with the marketplace, but when you are taking someone else's work and adding to it?

I guess I have just read too much self published garbage for me to want to se PB subjected to it. And if I feel that way for something I have only been playing and running for 20 years imagine how Kevin feels after everything he has been through.

Any answers for my copyright question?

[Josh Hilden]

sorry didn't see that

Palladium owns the copyright, anything the author creates on top of their IP they own as well. Amazon hosts the work and gets a cut of the profits until Palladium ends the contract at which point they can do whatever they want to with it.

What you are describing as far as the process goes is a collaborative situation under the Palladium umbrella. That would require a contract of some sort and direct Palladium coordination. I have no problem with that. Why would I it's not my company. But that's not how Kindle Worlds works. If Palladium doesn't want to swim in that pool that's fine (like they care what my opinion is) but I think it's short sighted.

A s for self published garbage... I've read a LOT of "Traditionally Published" stuff that is just gods awful.

[smashed]

Palladium owns the copyright, anything the author creates on top of their IP they own as well. Amazon hosts the work and gets a cut of the profits until Palladium ends the contract at which point they can do whatever they want to with it.

That is incorrect.
The author retains all copyrights to all the new material they create, however Amazon retains an exclusive license to the story and all of the original elements.

From the Kindles World FAQ https://kindleworlds.amazon.com/faqs?topicId=A31DTV3VSRP82B

Spoiler:

How do the rights work in Kindle Worlds?

Kindle Worlds is a creative community that includes you, the World Licensor, and other Kindle Worlds authors. Every story you publish adds to a World and becomes part of that World. We will allow other Kindle Worlds authors to use and build upon your new elements. Likewise, you may build on other Kindle Worlds stories. A World expands with each new story. Amazon Publishing and the World Licensor may also incorporate your new elements into other works they create without any further compensation to you. Due to this, there are important things for you to know about how the rights work. You will own the copyright to the original, copyrightable elements (such as characters, scenes, and events) that you create and include in your work, and the World Licensor will retain the copyright to all of the original elements of the World. When you submit your story in a World, you grant Amazon Publishing an exclusive license to the story and all of the original elements you include in that story for the term of copyright. This means that your story and all of the new elements must stay within the applicable World, and you can use only this platform to write about them. We recommend that you do not incorporate an original character or elements unless you want them to become an exclusive part of that World. In short, Kindle Worlds is a place to be creative and explore a popular World, but anything you create will become part of that World. If this is not right for you, Amazon has many platforms (including Kindle Direct Publishing and CreateSpace) for writers who want to be creative with original ideas but do not want their work under this kind of license.

Here is a list of the rights you grant Amazon to your work https://kindleworlds.amazon.com/faqs?topicId=A1MMH2I71OJWTR

Spoiler:

4. Rights You Grant to Us; No Reversion. Due to our licensing arrangement with the World Licensor and the collaborative nature of Kindle Worlds, you are granting us broad licenses in your Work and the new elements included in your Work, and the rights to your Work will not be reverted once it is published in the Program. Please see below for the details of these important Program terms.

(a) Exclusive License to your Work. Effective as of the date we first make your Work available through the Program, you grant us the exclusive, irrevocable license for the full term of copyright protection available (including renewals), to develop, license, reproduce, print, publish, distribute, translate, display, publicly perform and transmit your Work, in whole and in part, in each country in the world, in all languages and formats, and by all means now known or later developed, and the right to prepare derivative works of your Work.


(b) Exclusive License to all New Elements in Your Work. Effective as of the date we first make your Work available through the Program, you grant us the exclusive, irrevocable license for the full term of copyright protection available (including renewals), to all rights you have in the original copyrightable elements included in your Work, such as the original characters, scenes and events, and any rights you may have to any related trademarks (collectively, the “New Elements”). You agree that the New Elements are available for unrestricted use by us without any additional compensation, notification or attribution, including that we may allow other Kindle Worlds authors, the World Licensor and other third parties to use the New Elements. The licenses that you grant us in Section 4(a) and this Section 4(b) are exclusive. This means that you may not, and may not authorize any other party to, develop, license, reproduce, print, publish, distribute, translate, display, publicly perform, prepare derivative works of, or transmit your Work, in whole or in part, or any work containing any of the New Elements, except with our prior consent. If your work is currently available on other sites, including your blog or website, even if free, you must remove it from those sites before you submit it to Kindle Worlds.


(c) Right of Publicity. You grant us the right to use your name, biographical information, photograph, and likeness worldwide for any purpose in connection with your Work and participation in Kindle Worlds.


(d) Exercise of Rights; Sublicenses and Transfers. We may exercise any of the rights you grant us under this Agreement or discharge any of our obligations under this Agreement through one or more of our affiliates or independent contractors. We may sublicense or transfer any of the rights you grant us under this Agreement, including the right to prepare derivative works, to any of our affiliates or to any third party and may permit any sublicensee to sublicense the rights we grant to it.


(e) No Reversion. Once we first make your Work available through the Program it will not be eligible for reversion.

Now none of that means this is a bad deal for Palladium. But without seeing the agreement between Amazon and the IP holders, (I haven't been able to find one, which could mean they very from IP to IP), we don't know what type of rights Amazon has over the newly created material and how that could potentially affect the IP holders future works/other licensing deals. Until that is determined I abstain, but I would encourage Palladium to look into it. There definitely seems to be a market for Palladium IP fiction, and since it doesn't look like Palladium currently has the resources to facilitate the production of more of it, Kindle Worlds does offer a possible solution.

[Josh Hilden]

Fair enough I may have some of the details wrong, I'm just now starting the process of working in the KW sandbox, but my initial statement stands. Any potential concerns are outweighed by the benefits. It's a win win.

[Warshield73]

A s for self published garbage... I've read a LOT of "Traditionally Published" stuff that is just gods awful.

I have to agree with this, but most published fiction seems to have a floor, this bad no worse (although I have read a few sci-fi books recently that made me reevaluate the depth of that floor), so if 90% of all published work is crap then self publishing with voluntary editing and a low cost or free distribution...I think it gets up to 98% with no floor.

Fair enough I may have some of the details wrong, I'm just now starting the process of working in the KW sandbox, but my initial statement stands. Any potential concerns are outweighed by the benefits. It's a win win.

I still abstain, but without knowing how it effects the IP and licensing deals I just don't see how you can be so certain about this.

I certainly agree it has potential to raise awareness for PB IPs but not near enough info to say win-win so definitively.

[Killer Cyborg]

From what I've read on the subject, part of the typical contract is that the official owners of the property gain rights to use any characters, concept, or idea from the Kindle Worlds fanfiction without any need to compensate the creators.

For example, if somebody comes up with a new character that they introduce in their "Pretty Little Liars" fan-fiction, and that fanfic becomes popular (and/or the writers/producers/whoever of the show just like it), then they could introduce that character officially into the show, and not owe one penny to the writer of the fanfic.

The implication of this, as far as I can tell, is that if the makers of the Rifts movie (assuming they ever want to make it) decide that they want to make a movie out of any piece of Rifts fanfiction, then either they simply COULD do so, OR Palladium could make whatever elements they like from the fanfiction into canon material, which the movie makers would then have rights to access.

Which is NOT necessarily true of conventional fan-fiction.

[Josh Hilden]

8 times out of 10 I listen to KC... the other 2 I listen to Subbie, yeah I'm scared too.

[Warshield73]

From what I've read on the subject, part of the typical contract is that the official owners of the property gain rights to use any characters, concept, or idea from the Kindle Worlds fanfiction without any need to compensate the creators.

For example, if somebody comes up with a new character that they introduce in their "Pretty Little Liars" fan-fiction, and that fanfic becomes popular (and/or the writers/producers/whoever of the show just like it), then they could introduce that character officially into the show, and not owe one penny to the writer of the fanfic.

The implication of this, as far as I can tell, is that if the makers of the Rifts movie (assuming they ever want to make it) decide that they want to make a movie out of any piece of Rifts fanfiction, then either they simply COULD do so, OR Palladium could make whatever elements they like from the fanfiction into canon material, which the movie makers would then have rights to access.

Which is NOT necessarily true of conventional fan-fiction.

I read the AW rules for over an hour and I didn't see anything about this, can you source it? This would also mean that the writer would not hold the copyright.

If this is true, and it would hold up in court, I would have to change to yes.

[Eddie Focus]

Palladium should give it a shot with one of their lesser properties. I would avoid Rifts at first only because of how large it is. Test the waters with it and listen to the fan response. Then if it works open it up more. This could be a way to test the waters on a more large scale library of novels. They can make it a requirement that every book gets a professional edit. Not a lot to ask.

[Josh Hilden]

For Indie Writers it is, who decides what constitutes a "Professional Edit"?

[Killer Cyborg]

From what I've read on the subject, part of the typical contract is that the official owners of the property gain rights to use any characters, concept, or idea from the Kindle Worlds fanfiction without any need to compensate the creators.

For example, if somebody comes up with a new character that they introduce in their "Pretty Little Liars" fan-fiction, and that fanfic becomes popular (and/or the writers/producers/whoever of the show just like it), then they could introduce that character officially into the show, and not owe one penny to the writer of the fanfic.

The implication of this, as far as I can tell, is that if the makers of the Rifts movie (assuming they ever want to make it) decide that they want to make a movie out of any piece of Rifts fanfiction, then either they simply COULD do so, OR Palladium could make whatever elements they like from the fanfiction into canon material, which the movie makers would then have rights to access.

Which is NOT necessarily true of conventional fan-fiction.

I read the AW rules for over an hour and I didn't see anything about this, can you source it? This would also mean that the writer would not hold the copyright.

If this is true, and it would hold up in court, I would have to change to yes.

http://www.wired.com/2013/05/kindle-wor ... copyright/
Wired spoke with attorney Jeff Trexler, who expressed similar concerns, pointing to a clause in Amazon’s contact that grants Amazon and the licensor rights to the text of the stories and any original elements they might contain.

“In short, if your fan fiction includes new elements that catch on with the general public, it’s likely that you’ll not be able to profit from them outside of the stories that you write,” he said. “For example, Time Warner could launch a movie series based on a character you created and not owe you a dime. While the terms state that you retain the copyright, you also give Amazon an exclusive license to your original work and Amazon in turn licenses your work to Time Warner in a license that provides nothing for you.”

Furthermore, says Trexler, if you decided to keep using that character outside of Kindle Worlds, you’d be violating the terms of your contract.

[Killer Cyborg]

Palladium should give it a shot with one of their lesser properties. I would avoid Rifts at first only because of how large it is. Test the waters with it and listen to the fan response. Then if it works open it up more. This could be a way to test the waters on a more large scale library of novels.

I think that they should just jump in with Rifts. There's really no risk.
BUT if they tested the waters with one of their other properties, I could (and would) do fanfic for that.

They can make it a requirement that every book gets a professional edit. Not a lot to ask.

It kind of IS.
In addition to Hilden's point about the term being nebulous, the people who write fanfic generally don't have hundreds of dollars to toss to editors.
Requiring that kind of investment would rule out a number of skilled authors who don't really NEED an editor, and who don't want to wager that kind of money on a hobby project that might not ever bring them a return on their investment.

And keep in mind, as per the article I just cited:
Amazon’s list of content guidelines nix pornography and crossovers, as well as some more nebulous and subjective qualities like “offensive content” and “poor customer experience.”

A "Poor Customer Experience" could give all the excuse needed to have stuff taken down based on crappy grammar, or even on proper grammar but crappy storytelling.
If a story is doing Palladium more harm than good due to any kind of dissatisfaction, it could be taken down.

[Spinachcat]

I agree the CoT and the Trion Incident aren't going to help convince Kevin to consider going out of house with his IP. I would not blame him for being skeptical and its a shame. The KW idea looks awesome for RPG promotion.

If they're not already familiar with Rifts, why reread the fanfic?

There are LOTS of people who have heard of Rifts, but never played. They are a potential target audience.

Palladium should give it a shot with one of their lesser properties.

I agree.

Systems Failure, Mechanoids, Nightbane are good choices. I'd absolutely love to write for Mechanoids.

[Killer Cyborg]

I agree the CoT and the Trion Incident aren't going to help convince Kevin to consider going out of house with his IP. I would not blame him for being skeptical and its a shame. The KW idea looks awesome for RPG promotion.

If they're not already familiar with Rifts, why reread the fanfic?

There are LOTS of people who have heard of Rifts, but never played. They are a potential target audience. [/quote[

Most would probably only go for stuff that was high-rated, though.

[Jesterzzn]

Kindle Worlds is [allegedly] an IP mining project. It's [potentially] the worst kind of shady publisher practice.

It provides a framework for companies like Turner to jump on characters with viral popularity and then compensate the creators nothing. So, while it could be a great way for people to get their feet wet by writing material for already developed settings, it could also be a way for a person to watch their creations grow and prosper in popular culture without being paid one red cent. Siegal and Shuster learned a hard lesson, and I'd like to think it was so that hopefully everyone else could avoid their mistake.

What Amazon is doing is legal. I wouldn't trust them.

[Hotrod]

Given the editing fiasco over Sonic Boom, and its reception over at Amazon, I can understand if Kevin is a bit shy.

Mostly, though, I think it's a question of prospects. Kevin himself told me at Fanfare last year that the market for RPG-derived books is small, a niche within a niche. He doesn't see it as being worth his crew's time and energy. I had a discussion with Alex that underscored this perspective. Neither would rule it out in absolute terms, but neither had much enthusiasm for Palladium IP-based fiction.

[Killer Cyborg]

Kindle Worlds is [allegedly] an IP mining project. It's [potentially] the worst kind of shady publisher practice.

It provides a framework for companies like Turner to jump on characters with viral popularity and then compensate the creators nothing. So, while it could be a great way for people to get their feet wet by writing material for already developed settings, it could also be a way for a person to watch their creations grow and prosper in popular culture without being paid one red cent. Siegal and Shuster learned a hard lesson, and I'd like to think it was so that hopefully everyone else could avoid their mistake.

What Amazon is doing is legal. I wouldn't trust them.

As somebody who would happily write Rifts stories for Kindle Worlds, I understand that Palladium could take any of my characters and run with them, and even abuse them, and that I wouldn't see a red cent from it.

And I'm okay with that.