Availibility on PDF - any and all

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:32 am

i can't speak for the company, but i can tell you the trend i personally have noticed...

*most* of the titles available in PDF are either out of print now, or at some point were out of print for an extended period of time, as far as i can tell.

the only thing that seems to consistently make it to PDF is the rifter. and even that is generally a few years in coming after the print release (as i indicated above, i suspect it mostly happens when that issue of the rifter runs out of print copies and is not selling fast enough to justify another print run).

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:08 pm

count_zero99uk wrote:Do you have any idea of the print quality, are they direct conversions to PDF or are they scans of a hardcopy?

a little of column A, a little of column B. in general, even the converted ones don't have very good bookmarking, if any at all, in my experience though. the exceptions are PDFs for the latest megaversal insider deals, as i understand it.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:12 pm

At the moment there are no plans at all, that anyone is privy too, as to when, if ever, Palladium will join their competition in the modern age of digital products like PDF.

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:18 am

oh, well even the comparatively lousy ones are quite legible that i have. that shouldn't be a concern, as far as i can tell.

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:41 am

Palladium's sort of behind the curve on ebooks because of a misguided fear of piracy. Which is why they took so long releasing anything in pdf format at all, and why most of the pdfs available are of out of print books that they were never going to print and sell again anyway. And most of them are just scans rather than nicely formatted documents.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:47 am

count_zero99uk wrote:A misguided fear of piracy?

Yes a misguided fear of piracy. As of right now I know I can, at a minimum, download Palladium entire catalogue, in a single torrent file, up at least Black Market (that about 5 books short of the full catalogue). I don't. I make my own PDFs from my books. I do however check the situation on occasion. Mostly for discussions like this.

Point is, the piracy boat has sailed. If that is their reason for not doing then they failed miserably. Might as well get SOMETHING from those who are in fact willing to pay for it like yourself, myself, and others. As of now they ZERO. They have essentially forced those that would pay for legal PDF's to download them illegally due to their own misguided fear of piracy.

Now will it be a revenue boom? Of course not. People that download will continue to do so regardless of them being available legally or not and while not being available legally is certainly no justification for people downloading the PDF's of newer books, I certainly understand why they do it.

As for Ebay.......I am not sure what you think the difference is between illegally downloading a book, buying a used one from Ebay or for that matter buying a used one from a book or game store but Palladium gets no benefit from any one of those unless they themselves are the sellers on Ebay. (Kevin does in fact have a few items for sale personally iirc). Is it nice that they would buy a copy of the actual book? Sure it is, but books sales do nothing for Palladium beyond the initial new book sale. In fact there are number of people on these forums that refuse to buy Palladium Books new from Palladium of a game store or anywhere else. They will only buy used copies as a form of protest against Palladium's varies business practices and decisions, past and present, for the specific reason that Palladium gets nothing from the sale of the used book.

It is my opinion they very much SHOULD sell PDF's of their entire catalogue. Unlike others however I do think they should have some sort of delay. Releasing a PDF at the same time as the hardcopy could very well affect the sales of the hardcopy. Personally I think a 6-12 month delay on the sale of PDF after the hardcopy is released would make the most sense. Why? At that point the biggest push of sales for the book will be over. At that point a lot of people would be asking for the book in Xmas grab bags and such as well which Palladium really does not make much profit from.

I see no reason whatsoever for them to be STILL dragging their feet on this.

Edit - hell, while I know others want PDFs with all sorts of bells and whistles, personally I just want a very clean scan that can be text searched.

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:33 am

count_zero99uk wrote:A misguided fear of piracy? Im massively against piracy, my friends business went under because of it.

I don't mean misguided in the "piracy isn't really a crime" sense, I mean misguided in the sense that they don't seem to understand how the problem works. They don't want to sell ebooks of current titles because pirates might get copies of those ebooks and distribute them online. But virtually everything Palladium's ever published has already been scanned and posted online by pirates anyway, so they're basically just closing the gate after the horses have bolted.

And in the meantime they're missing out on a new way to bring their product to the market. Or I won't really say "new", since RPGs in ebook format are a tried and tested business model now, and a metric load of indy publishers have made a significant chunk of their sales that way in the last decade. Lots of people want to be able to store a whole library of books on their laptop or tablet so they don't have to haul twenty pounds of paper around whenever they go to a game. Lots of people are willing to pay money for it. And there's even a lot of people who already own hard copies of the books who will happily pay a few bucks again for the same titles in ebook form for easy transport.

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:40 am

jaymz wrote:It is my opinion they very much SHOULD sell PDF's of their entire catalogue. Unlike others however I do think they should have some sort of delay. Releasing a PDF at the same time as the hardcopy could very well affect the sales of the hardcopy. Personally I think a 6-12 month delay on the sale of PDF after the hardcopy is released would make the most sense. Why? At that point the biggest push of sales for the book will be over. At that point a lot of people would be asking for the book in Xmas grab bags and such as well which Palladium really does not make much profit from.

The delay's only one way of doing it. A lot of the smaller RPG companies these days sell the PDF version as a sort of teaser at a low price, in the hopes that the customers who really like it will be impressed enough to shell out the big bucks for a glossy full colour print version.

And it seems to work for them. Or at least the internet isn't full of bankrupt game writers advising the next crop of indy game companies to avoid that business model at all costs

. And some of them (like Posthuman Studios) have even managed to make a buck by releasing PDFs of their entire catalogue for free under a Creative Commons license so everyone can try before they buy.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:42 am

Oh I know it only one way but it seems this would be pretty much the only way Palladium would likely go

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:16 am

jaymz wrote:
count_zero99uk wrote:A misguided fear of piracy?

Yes a misguided fear of piracy. As of right now I know I can, at a minimum, download Palladium entire catalogue, in a single torrent file, up at least Black Market (that about 5 books short of the full catalogue). I don't. I make my own PDFs from my books. I do however check the situation on occasion. Mostly for discussions like this.

Point is, the piracy boat has sailed. If that is their reason for not doing then they failed miserably. Might as well get SOMETHING from those who are in fact willing to pay for it like yourself, myself, and others. As of now they ZERO. They have essentially forced those that would pay for legal PDF's to download them illegally due to their own misguided fear of piracy.

Now will it be a revenue boom? Of course not. People that download will continue to do so regardless of them being available legally or not and while not being available legally is certainly no justification for people downloading the PDF's of newer books, I certainly understand why they do it.

As for Ebay.......I am not sure what you think the difference is between illegally downloading a book, buying a used one from Ebay or for that matter buying a used one from a book or game store but Palladium gets no benefit from any one of those unless they themselves are the sellers on Ebay. (Kevin does in fact have a few items for sale personally iirc). Is it nice that they would buy a copy of the actual book? Sure it is, but books sales do nothing for Palladium beyond the initial new book sale. In fact there are number of people on these forums that refuse to buy Palladium Books new from Palladium of a game store or anywhere else. They will only buy used copies as a form of protest against Palladium's varies business practices and decisions, past and present, for the specific reason that Palladium gets nothing from the sale of the used book.

It is my opinion they very much SHOULD sell PDF's of their entire catalogue. Unlike others however I do think they should have some sort of delay. Releasing a PDF at the same time as the hardcopy could very well affect the sales of the hardcopy. Personally I think a 6-12 month delay on the sale of PDF after the hardcopy is released would make the most sense. Why? At that point the biggest push of sales for the book will be over. At that point a lot of people would be asking for the book in Xmas grab bags and such as well which Palladium really does not make much profit from.

I see no reason whatsoever for them to be STILL dragging their feet on this.

Edit - hell, while I know others want PDFs with all sorts of bells and whistles, personally I just want a very clean scan that can be text searched.

I agree completely.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:32 am

count_zero99uk wrote:
jaymz wrote:
count_zero99uk wrote:A misguided fear of piracy?

As for Ebay.......I am not sure what you think the difference is between illegally downloading a book, buying a used one from Ebay or for that matter buying a used one from a book or game store but Palladium gets no benefit from any one of those unless they themselves are the sellers on Ebay.

You kinda answered your question for me, Piracy is Illegal selling a book you own isn't. If I buy Rifts and then sell it on its one copy just moving about the market, If I scan and upload Rifts then that's multiple copies going out there.

And yet you missed the rest of the point. Palladium gains nothing from any of the three options I presented not to mention apparently bypassed the rest of what said.

To repeat the primary point however.....The piracy boat has sailed a long time ago. To use that as a reason NOT to SELL PDF's is asinine.

Riftmaker · Unread post by **Riftmaker** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:02 pm

Id love palladium stuff in pdf format. A tablet is soo much easier.

FatherMorpheus · Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:28 pm

If you have a good product people will buy it, even if they can get it for free elsewhere? Don't believe me? I can name a product that is legally free almost anywhere in the USA and Canada. It is almost as good of a product as it the one that people pay huge mark-ups on. Yet, people play 200% to 300% the price for it because they feel they are purchasing a better product or a more convenient version of that product.

Don't believe me? I give you bottled water. Without being obtuse, you can get water for free at any drinking fountain. It comes out of the tap for free at school. Yes you do pay for it in your monthly bill if you own a home, but it is pennies on the dollar cheaper than buying a bottle of water. Yet millions of people each day pay theri $1, $2 or even $4 for a bottle of premium water.

If Palladium gives you a product you want with the quality you want people will pay for it. I've been waiting for ANY of the RPG companies to give you a code or something with each paper book (I like paper versions and PDFs) that gives you a PDF for free. Palladium could be the first company to do this successfully. Charge me a buck or two more for the bundle, fine. But stop dragging behind due to a fear of piracy.

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:48 pm

I've even known companies that offer a bundle where you buy both the print book and PDF at a discount. now, sales of a PDF may not necessarily increase sales (although they might, depending on how much shipping cost and portability is important to your potential customers), but if you can sell a PDF of a book alongside the book, every one of those bundles are basically giving you extra money that you wouldn't have otherwise gotten.

in any event, it is unfortunate that kevin doesn't seem interested in really trying out the PDF market.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:50 pm

It is S/F, very much so.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:55 pm

count_zero99uk wrote:@Jaymz - I understand your point about funds going to Palladium from only the original sale.

Also I agree that it is a little late in the day for companies now to worry about creating product that can be uploaded straight away, which I think is the main thought process behind it - if I provide a product in digital format they will just click and upload it.

Its a shame, how long has he been selling stuff on DriveThrough? maybe hes waiting to see if its profitable. And I know any sale is technicaly good as it hasn't had to be printed, but you know what I mean.

Ah well,

Back to reading my floppy hard copy of HU2

It's all good.

I have various Palladium and old West End Games Star War RPG books stacked nearby at any given time. I am a book person myself but cannot deny the lovely convenience of saying "hang on let me just check my pdf on my server" when gaming anywhere

BuzzardB · Unread post by **BuzzardB** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:25 pm

PDF of modern books would be so awesome.

The Northern Gun 1 PDF is excellent and I would love getting all the modern books with similar quality PDFs.

I am not sure how much it would affect physical sales though, I would still get both since I like having a hard-copy since I just collect them.

At game night however I prefer the PDFs, especially for Rifts since we utilize a LOT more books than many other games and the ability to "Ctrl-F" is a major time saver.

JimmyB · Unread post by **JimmyB** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:33 pm

I am not personally a big fan of PDFs, but....

A very good point is the fact that stuff is getting illegally reproduced as pdfs anyway.
If that is what someones looking for. Although I would put it at maybe 50% of the total books at best.

Secondly, Although there are pirated copies out there, they are not professionally done,
and in many cases are very poor quality.

Now add in the fact that there are fans in the UK and elsewhere who have to deal with
international shipping, and in many cases that can make it un-affordable. And PDFs
could be a good way to increase the market.

People like me will always want the books, hell I have two of every book. One for playing
the games, and one for my collection. And when special collector editions come out in
hardback I get those as well.

So in short, professional made, high quality pdfs that are legitimate could definitely be a good thing.

FatherMorpheus · Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:56 pm

JimmyB wrote:A very good point is the fact that stuff is getting illegally reproduced as pdfs anyway.
If that is what someones looking for. Although I would put it at maybe 50% of the total books at best.

Actually, put it more at 90% to 95% available if you dig. Good quality ones that are OCR searchable and have some sort of bookmarks, that is perhaps as low as 50% to 75%.

This is something that has always fascinated me about the various pirates out there. I've done lots of documentation creation in the past, and doing it right takes a lot of time. I've always pondered they could buy the books a few times over just by working a job for half the time.

But that is another thread I think.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:16 pm

I don't know. I did a pretty good PDF of a couple of my own books that were text searchable. I did it the very old fashioned way of scanning each page individually, merging them as a single PDF, then OCR scanning them for text searchability. The larger ones took about 6 hours total.

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:15 pm

count_zero99uk wrote:Its a shame, how long has he been selling stuff on DriveThrough? maybe hes waiting to see if its profitable. And I know any sale is technicaly good as it hasn't had to be printed, but you know what I mean.

If he's waiting to see if it's profitable then he's running a flawed experiment, because he's selling products that nobody wants. The house magazine and out of print sourcebooks for obsolete editions of old games aren't going to draw many customers, and the customers it does draw will be people who are already hardcore Palladium Books fans.

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:23 pm

FatherMorpheus wrote:
JimmyB wrote:A very good point is the fact that stuff is getting illegally reproduced as pdfs anyway.
If that is what someones looking for. Although I would put it at maybe 50% of the total books at best.

Actually, put it more at 90% to 95% available if you dig. Good quality ones that are OCR searchable and have some sort of bookmarks, that is perhaps as low as 50% to 75%.

This is something that has always fascinated me about the various pirates out there. I've done lots of documentation creation in the past, and doing it right takes a lot of time. I've always pondered they could buy the books a few times over just by working a job for half the time.

But that is another thread I think.

It's probably just someone scanning a copy of the book so he can carry his gaming library on his laptop and then deciding to put the pdf in his Shared Files folder for the hell of it. Or he scans a copy for personal use and forwards the pdf to some of his gaming group because it's more convenient than lending them the physical book, and one of them puts it in their Shared Files folder for the hell of it. Or one of them is just the sort of genius who accidentally designated his entire hard drive as "shared" when he installed a filesharing program.

I seriously doubt there's some cartoonish evil hacker villain out there who rushes out to buy new RPG books and put them on the internet as quickly as possible.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:59 pm

Something that i just thought of - and I don't mean to diss Palladium (much anyways), but it's my logical reason why they don't want to publish PDF's.

That's Shipping and Handling. You notice how much S/H PB charges for books, that probably covers quite a bit of their normal day to day costs. If you remember at some point Kevin used to talk about Sales on a daily basis. Even though the postal service offered some really good postal flat rate shipping options.

So why should Palladium give up that cash cow? Folks have complained about S/H prices in the past to no avail. Heck, if PB would use my shipping account to ship me books I'd pay quite a bit less also.

Dreamstreamer · Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:36 pm

Tiree wrote:That's Shipping and Handling.

I think that only works if 1 digital sale equals 1 lost physical sale, which is unlikely to be the case.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:29 pm

Dreamstreamer wrote:
Tiree wrote:That's Shipping and Handling.

I think that only works if 1 digital sale equals 1 lost physical sale, which is unlikely to be the case.

I am a big fan of Digital. I believe that PDF's should be sold individually and in bundles from PB. But for those like me, I have all the books I want, except for PDF's and/or brand new ones that get published. With Palladium's slow product deployment, buying individually and not in bulk is what I do.

zyanitevp · Unread post by **zyanitevp** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:52 am

count_zero99uk wrote:My original question was because I cant get hold of some stuff in hard copy Im based out in the UK and I cant find how much postage would be from Palladium Direct.

Ouch- postage is very high. Reach out to some of the other UK folks (DarkElf would be one) to see how they get books. I remember there being a few game stores that carried, but I could not tell you whom.

zyanitevp · Unread post by **zyanitevp** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:54 am

I am firmly on the PDF bandwagon, and I buy both when available- the hard copy from my FLGS and the PDF (did Digital Supporter on both NG books to try and make a point).
It is sooooo much easier for my online game to have a searchable PDF....

McPherson · Unread post by **McPherson** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:04 am

I'm in the UK and i've looked around for PB products (I'd like to re-aquire my Robotech RPG books after I left my copies in the US) But nothing has shown up.

PDF would be ok but i'd much rather have hard copies and like Count_zero I cant find out how much Palladium would charge for shipping from their website.

- End of Line -

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:14 am

I want to say its regular postal but the most expensive. So probably about 40 US from what I saw. And you have to pay any duties as well.

BuzzardB · Unread post by **BuzzardB** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:09 pm

The Shipping and Handling to Canada keeps me from buying books directly to Palladium, which sucks because there is only one FLGS around here which will bring their stuff in, and they for some reason just cannot get NG2.

Two ideas I really like following Paizo successful PDF business model is subscribers getting the PDFs for free with their hard-copy of books, although I could see this leading to unhappy customers if/since the release schedule is whacky.

And all PDFs being a flat $10 is great, Pinnicle keeps their PDFs cheaper too.

Daniel Stoker · Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:26 pm

Tiree wrote:Something that i just thought of - and I don't mean to diss Palladium (much anyways), but it's my logical reason why they don't want to publish PDF's.

That's Shipping and Handling. You notice how much S/H PB charges for books, that probably covers quite a bit of their normal day to day costs. If you remember at some point Kevin used to talk about Sales on a daily basis. Even though the postal service offered some really good postal flat rate shipping options.

So why should Palladium give up that cash cow? Folks have complained about S/H prices in the past to no avail. Heck, if PB would use my shipping account to ship me books I'd pay quite a bit less also.

That's why I'll wait 2 - 3 weeks for a book to come out and buy it for the same price on Amazon and get free shipping. I don't mind paying for something but I don't have money to just blow on that and their shipping is way to expensive. Getting a copy of Thundercloud Galaxy today would cost me $20.95 and then if I wanted it shipped via UPS it'll cost me $13.49 or $5.17 via their cheapest USPS Media mail. I can ship the same book via UPS ground for $8.23 or if I take it to the post office for $3.17. Or I can buy it at Amazon for the same price (or 16.75 + 3.99 shipping so $20.74) and not pay shipping. If their rates were closer I admit I might shine it, but they're not and these days I don't need the books immediately so I'll wait and save some money.

Daniel Stoker

Unread post by **Wayne Smith** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:10 pm

Hey McPherson and count_zero, what do you guys see when you try to checkout in our store? The shipping calculation for the United Kingdom is working when I try. If there's an issue, I'd like to fix it.

Thanks.

Oh, and since I'm here and just noticed this in the Topic Review window, I'll address one point. Tiree: We add $2.00 for each order to cover the cost of packaging and any discrepancy between what the store estimates the shipping cost will be (based on estimated weight; it pulls rates from the USPS and UPS servers), and what it actually is. Sure, sometimes the shipping cost ends up being less than what we charge, but sometimes it's actually more. We do not make any significant profit on shipping charges.

Daniel: The above means that if our store is telling you $13.49, then UPS's servers are telling us $11.49. How are you getting $8.23? What is the weight you're using to calculate that? I'm getting $12.22 from their website right now just to send a 1.3 lb package (Thundercloud Galaxy in a Rigi-Bag weighs 1 lb, 4 oz) to a residential address right here in Westland, MI.

Daniel Stoker · Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:24 pm

I use UPS Worldship for shipping and something that's 2 lbs only came up to $8.13 via UPS ground, and even having it sent to my house as opposed to office only changes it to be $9.78 so I'm not sure why you're getting charged $11.49 to ship it.

Daniel Stoker

Unread post by **Wayne Smith** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:51 pm

Daniel Stoker wrote:I use UPS Worldship for shipping and something that's 2 lbs only came up to $8.13 via UPS ground, and even having it sent to my house as opposed to office only changes it to be $9.78 so I'm not sure why you're getting charged $11.49 to ship it.

Hmm. Where are you located? Check what it would be from your location to Westland, MI 48185.

Does your company do a lot of volume with UPS? My guess is you've got a pretty good discount that's reflected in those numbers.

Daniel Stoker · Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:01 pm

Wayne Smith wrote:Hmm. Where are you located? Check what it would be from your location to Westland, MI 48185.

I actually did it both ways and the pic with the Residential address selected is using Westland MI 48185 as the Ship to Address.

Does your company do a lot of volume with UPS? My guess is you've got a pretty good discount that's reflected in those numbers.

Well we do have a discount for using UPS and being set up with Worldship but it seems odd that it would be that much less unless you also use FedEx etc to ship out.

Daniel Stoker

McPherson · Unread post by **McPherson** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:25 pm

Went through again Wayne and managed to get it to work after fiddling with the format of my address.

Thanks for checking.

- End of Line -

zyanitevp · Unread post by **zyanitevp** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:37 pm

Thanks Wayne for your response!

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:28 pm

BuzzardB wrote:The Shipping and Handling to Canada keeps me from buying books directly to Palladium, which sucks because there is only one FLGS around here which will bring their stuff in, and they for some reason just cannot get NG2.

Two ideas I really like following Paizo successful PDF business model is subscribers getting the PDFs for free with their hard-copy of books, although I could see this leading to unhappy customers if/since the release schedule is whacky.

And all PDFs being a flat $10 is great, Pinnicle keeps their PDFs cheaper too.

Harry Tarantula by any chance? :lol:

BuzzardB · Unread post by **BuzzardB** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:56 am

jaymz wrote:Harry Tarantula by any chance?

Naw, I am a B.C.'er

I want my NG2...and I want a PDF of it also!

Giant2005 · Unread post by **Giant2005** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:02 am

TheOttoman wrote:There are services where you can purchase "real" books from Amazon or ebay, and directly send them to the service (or post your own books to them) where they will "deconstruct" the book, scan it at 600 dpi, OCR it and then send it to you via secure link. The service is very cost effective and they do a good job.

Do you have any more information about this?
I too scan my own books but I'd much rather pay someone else to do it as not only would it be easier on me but at $30+ postage to get to Australia, it would most likely be cheaper too.

azazel1024 · Unread post by **azazel1024** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:22 pm

jaymz wrote:
count_zero99uk wrote:@Jaymz - I understand your point about funds going to Palladium from only the original sale.

Also I agree that it is a little late in the day for companies now to worry about creating product that can be uploaded straight away, which I think is the main thought process behind it - if I provide a product in digital format they will just click and upload it.

Its a shame, how long has he been selling stuff on DriveThrough? maybe hes waiting to see if its profitable. And I know any sale is technicaly good as it hasn't had to be printed, but you know what I mean.

Ah well,

Back to reading my floppy hard copy of HU2

It's all good.

I have various Palladium and old West End Games Star War RPG books stacked nearby at any given time. I am a book person myself but cannot deny the lovely convenience of saying "hang on let me just check my pdf on my server" when gaming anywhere

I used to have all of my WEG stuff, but a couple of boxes that sat in my basement unpacked from my move 2 years ago ended up getting soaked when part of my basement flooded. Ruined 85% of the books, so I did just chuck them and replace with PDFs. I would have glad of paid WEG for the PDFs (if WEG still existed and produced them), but I wasn't going to spend the weeks and weeks searching around eBay and stuff to find the old used copies to replace mine (since about 50% of mine were bought new at the time and the other 50% bought used over the last decade).

All of my PB stuff is either hard copy, or PDFs that I've scanned of my hard copy. Its a HUGE pain for me to scan my books, but it is 99.99% more convenient than the dead tree for me, but I als believe FIRMLY in supporting PB, even though I don't necessarily agree with all of their practices. Same deal with regular authors. I either get their eBook through legit channels, or that small handful of authors who don't/haven't produced an eBook of something, I've bought the dead tree book and then found an OCR'd eBook of it elsewhere too. I don't agree with piracy, I do understand why it happens though, but I also want to support authors, artists, etc whenever and whereever possible, but I'll also find ways to get their work in a medium that works best for me, but I won't do it at the cost of not financially compensating said authors/artists. I'd rather short cut things and have the work available in a format that works best for me and then pay for that, than in a different format and then either have to convert or seek out the format that works for me.

I've got >80 PB books on my selves, but other than to scan something, I don't think I've cracked a dead tree PB book in probably 3 years, and that was Black Market as I have the special edition hard cover and it is just sooooo damn pretty. Both NG1, NG2 and Lemuria I got as MI PDF offers. I'd love to be able to get more PB books from them that way instead of buying the physical book and then having to invest hours in to scanning it (and since I am not willing to debind the books, it doesn't look half so good). At this point since I've spent all of that time and effort to scan 80+% of my PB library, I don't know that I'd buy too many "back books" that I've already scanned, but I am POSITIVE there is at least a couple I would just because I'd rather a really nice PDF of it than the semi-passable PDF I've made from my flatbed scanner (just to be clear, heck no I don't upload them nor would I ever). Beyond that, for new books, my selves are really full up. I don't want to buy any more physical books...I will if that is the ONLY choice in getting the book, but I'd really rather not having to start packing books up to make room, and I also especially don't want to invest the hours it takes to scan a new book so that I can have the PDF on my tablet. I'd gladly pay the same price as a physical book just to have it in PDF form (though I wouldn't turn my nose up at a $2-4 discount since cheaper to produce than having to print and warehouse a physical books).

Goliath Strongarm · Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:06 pm

Kevin is a technophobe, albeit a smart one.

He doesn't believe in PDFs. Everyone clamored for them. So, he got mediocre PDFs of stuff that people aren't buying anymore. Then, when they don't sell well, he can appoint and say "see, I tried, but nobody was buying them. I was right all along!"

Kind of like how the argument goes "Rifts pays the bills" when that's just about all that is put out anymore.

Warning: User warned for trolling/insulting another forum user/entity. - NMI

FatherMorpheus · Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:12 pm

Goliath Strongarm wrote:Kevin is a technophobe, albeit a smart one.

He doesn't believe in PDFs. Everyone clamored for them. So, he got mediocre PDFs of stuff that people aren't buying anymore. Then, when they don't sell well, he can appoint and say "see, I tried, but nobody was buying them. I was right all along!"

Kind of like how the argument goes "Rifts pays the bills" when that's just about all that is put out anymore.

While this may be true, I will say the Electronic PDF I got as part of the Northern-Gun 1 kickstarter was awesome. I was super annoyed I didn't pay high enough on the NG 2 to get the same thing.

Goliath Strongarm · Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:30 pm

Yes, but that was part of the promotion, not just a PDF up for sale.

Go to drive thru, and look what's offered.

FatherMorpheus · Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:32 pm

Nothing current or in the edition I want is offered there. This I already know.

azazel1024 · Unread post by **azazel1024** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:33 pm

Goliath Strongarm wrote:Kevin is a technophobe, albeit a smart one.

He doesn't believe in PDFs. Everyone clamored for them. So, he got mediocre PDFs of stuff that people aren't buying anymore. Then, when they don't sell well, he can appoint and say "see, I tried, but nobody was buying them. I was right all along!"

Kind of like how the argument goes "Rifts pays the bills" when that's just about all that is put out anymore.

Honestly I don't think we know what his reasoning is right now. He hasn't addressed it in years. Alex has a couple of times on "Please give us PDFs!" threads, but he has never really gotten in to much detail other than the occasion "PDFs/eBooks don't sell as well as you think/claim" usually with old/not applicable data to back it up and occasionally a vague "piracy concerns".

I don't think there has ever been "Sorry guys, that isn't what we want to do. We want to be printing books, not shoving electrons", or "Sorry, we just won't make the pirates' lives easier, even if it might make us some extra money" or "we just don't have the staff for the little bit of extra work it would require even if it made us more money".

I think that the reason they haven't done it is because it is easier to do nothing than it is to change how they do things. Yes, they've done the MI offers, but to do it on a regular basis as part of their normal publishing and business practice would take more. I don't think they want to go with their current method of releasing newer books through drive-through (though maybe they'd be happy enough just doing that), which means a lot more work. Maybe they want to get their current catalog out there before they'd start releasing new books and they look at the amount of work and just go "not worth it". I don't know.

A little of me would like a well reasoned out explination for why PB isn't/won't do PDFs that has been updated to now (the explination) (instead of what seem to be recycled reasons from 10 years ago when people first started bringing it up), or even that they really are considering it, but its a business/workload issue and they don't know if/when they'll be able to address PDFs and do it the way they'd like to.

It isn't killing me not to know, but it just seems like there are umpteen number of fans who would be more than willing to buy PDFs of the books, either immediately, or delayed release or back catalog (but still currently in print) or buy the book and PDF of the book that I can't grok it not being a money maker for PB. Probably more in the short term as each/all PDFs were released as pent up demand was feed, but I imagine it would also be a net money maker on new books as they are released over not doing PDFs at all. Seems silly for a company that complains about being on the razors edge so often to scoff at something that would be likely to make them money with little capitol investiture other than 1-2 employee's time, and not all that much per book either (especially if any of them are already in SOME kind of digital format already).

But it is PB's ball. They can play the game however they want, but it would at least be nice to know why the rules for the game are the way they are.

PS I'd have to check my copies of Lemuria, NG1 and NG2, but I want to say there was something like 200+ Cyber insiders for each, not including all of the people who went with higher levels that also included a PDF or all of the people who didn't participate in the MI offer, but would have bought a PDF of those books if it was available through regular channels once the book was published. Obviously no way of knowing how many of those bought some physical form of the book too (other than the people who took higher level packages) then or later, or who never would have bought the books if they hadn't been in PDF form, but my guess is more than any possible profit loss from not selling physical books.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:59 am

azazel1024 wrote:
jaymz wrote:
count_zero99uk wrote:@Jaymz - I understand your point about funds going to Palladium from only the original sale.

Also I agree that it is a little late in the day for companies now to worry about creating product that can be uploaded straight away, which I think is the main thought process behind it - if I provide a product in digital format they will just click and upload it.

Its a shame, how long has he been selling stuff on DriveThrough? maybe hes waiting to see if its profitable. And I know any sale is technicaly good as it hasn't had to be printed, but you know what I mean.

Ah well,

Back to reading my floppy hard copy of HU2

It's all good.

I have various Palladium and old West End Games Star War RPG books stacked nearby at any given time. I am a book person myself but cannot deny the lovely convenience of saying "hang on let me just check my pdf on my server" when gaming anywhere

I used to have all of my WEG stuff, but a couple of boxes that sat in my basement unpacked from my move 2 years ago ended up getting soaked when part of my basement flooded. Ruined 85% of the books, so I did just chuck them and replace with PDFs. I would have glad of paid WEG for the PDFs (if WEG still existed and produced them), but I wasn't going to spend the weeks and weeks searching around eBay and stuff to find the old used copies to replace mine (since about 50% of mine were bought new at the time and the other 50% bought used over the last decade).

All of my PB stuff is either hard copy, or PDFs that I've scanned of my hard copy. Its a HUGE pain for me to scan my books, but it is 99.99% more convenient than the dead tree for me, but I als believe FIRMLY in supporting PB, even though I don't necessarily agree with all of their practices. Same deal with regular authors. I either get their eBook through legit channels, or that small handful of authors who don't/haven't produced an eBook of something, I've bought the dead tree book and then found an OCR'd eBook of it elsewhere too. I don't agree with piracy, I do understand why it happens though, but I also want to support authors, artists, etc whenever and whereever possible, but I'll also find ways to get their work in a medium that works best for me, but I won't do it at the cost of not financially compensating said authors/artists. I'd rather short cut things and have the work available in a format that works best for me and then pay for that, than in a different format and then either have to convert or seek out the format that works for me.

I've got >80 PB books on my selves, but other than to scan something, I don't think I've cracked a dead tree PB book in probably 3 years, and that was Black Market as I have the special edition hard cover and it is just sooooo damn pretty. Both NG1, NG2 and Lemuria I got as MI PDF offers. I'd love to be able to get more PB books from them that way instead of buying the physical book and then having to invest hours in to scanning it (and since I am not willing to debind the books, it doesn't look half so good). At this point since I've spent all of that time and effort to scan 80+% of my PB library, I don't know that I'd buy too many "back books" that I've already scanned, but I am POSITIVE there is at least a couple I would just because I'd rather a really nice PDF of it than the semi-passable PDF I've made from my flatbed scanner (just to be clear, heck no I don't upload them nor would I ever). Beyond that, for new books, my selves are really full up. I don't want to buy any more physical books...I will if that is the ONLY choice in getting the book, but I'd really rather not having to start packing books up to make room, and I also especially don't want to invest the hours it takes to scan a new book so that I can have the PDF on my tablet. I'd gladly pay the same price as a physical book just to have it in PDF form (though I wouldn't turn my nose up at a $2-4 discount since cheaper to produce than having to print and warehouse a physical books).

The only PDF's I have of PB books that I do not hat have a hard copy for are for books I scanned and PDFed for a friend. He let me have a copy for the effort of PDFing it for him. Those few books are on the list to buy either in a couple of months or will be ont eh list for a Grab bag to get hard copies. I am a dead tree guy but with server space I can access thru my phone with no issues, PDFs are THE thing I need when not gaming at home as well.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:14 am

Considering the books are all digitally laid out and send to the printer in a digital format, workload should not be a reason as that is just an excuse.

If they tried to do the entire library all at once then yes THAT would be a relatively major undertaking (especially with older books that predate 2006 or so) as they were not digitally done and a copy would have to be essentially ruined to get it properly scanned formatted and done.

Now, I am not saying they should do it all at once but do one older title every couple of weeks? There is nothing they could say that would be a valid reason, to me, to not do this. If can do a half decent PDF of Tria2 for my own use with a flatscanner, adobe acrobat and give it a text search function in 5 hours of my own time, I would think they could do something better in less time. And that was a big book. I think my SB1 revised took me 3 hours from beginning to end. If they cannot spare 3-5 hours (and that is for the older non digital ones which should have been scanned and done for archival purposes anyway) out of their 15 hour, 7 day work weeks every couple of weeks then someone is doing something very wrong. The digitally done books should not take as long.

The piracy issue is no longer an issue. If someone wants a PDF of a Palladium book it is already out there. I would not be all that surprised to be able to find MiF out there already and its only been 2 weeks.

5 hours at whatever Wayne or someone gets paid wont be more than what 100 bucks? (that's 20 an hour and I don't even pretend to know what Wayne or anyone else there makes, it;s just a number for an example). You sell a book like say Triax 2 for half the cover price of a dead tree version (12.99?). All you need to do is sell 8-10 of them and the "cost" is paid for. Even at double the time needed (10 hours or 200 bucks) you need to sell about 20 of them. Does ANYONE here honestly believe they couldn't sell 20 PDFs of a book?

At his point it makes Palladium look "old school" and NOT in a good nostalgic way.

Goliath Strongarm · Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:54 am

jaymz wrote:The piracy issue is no longer an issue. If someone wants a PDF of a Palladium book it is already out there. I would not be all that surprised to be able to find MiF out there already and its only been 2 weeks.

I didn't see MiF, but I did see that NG2 was up at a few different places. Of course, that was only with a quick, 5 minute look at a few of the free open-to-the-public sites....

The point IS made, however, that if Kevin and co. DON'T make PDFs, others will. And they're more likely to share the ones they make than the ones that get bought and have their name all over them.