Please help me to visualize a Palladium magic ritual

[Glistam]

The rules for magic have their quirks between games, but for the most part the P.P.E. spell casting system works out pretty much the same whether you're in the original BTS, Nightbane, Palladium Fantasy, Rifts, or Heroes Unlimited.

THAT being said... Rituals have always confused me.

I get the idea that Palladium was going for. I love the flavor they discuss with it. Mechanically though... I just can't figure it out.

Say I want to open a Dimensional Portal, and I know how to cast it as a ritual. 1,000 P.P.E. is a daunting task, but not impossible. You get a group of followers together who can participate in the ritual with you. You find a Ley Line nexus and plan out the time so that your spell coincides with some celestial event. You go there, you and your followers begin their chants and dances, maybe you sacrifice a goat or something for good measure, and as long as nothing else stops you you use the energy to cast the spell and the portal opens.

That's how the flavor text indicates to me that it's supposed to work.

But mechanically, I can't grasp it. Here's the mechanics as I know them:

• As a ritual, Dimensional Portal takes 1D4×10+15 or 1D6×10+15 minutes to cast (depending on the book)
• The people participating in the ritual can provide their entire P.P.E. base to the casting of the spell.
• A sacrificed creature's P.P.E. doubles at the moment of death and can be used to cast spells.
• An interruption of more than 30 seconds will stop the ritual and cause 30% of the total available P.P.E. to leak away.
• Incapacitating any of the participants (not the leader) simply removes their P.P.E. from the amount available.
• A practitioner of magic can pull 20 P.P.E. per melee round from a ley line Nexus. During special events that amount increases for a small period of time (amounts and durations vary per book) but typically the real big P.P.E. numbers require precise timing down to the minute.

And that's all I can find. Somehow, this all comes together to allow a mage to be able to cast, for example, Dimensional Portal? I'm stymied here and can't work it out.

I think my biggest hurdle is the variable time it takes to cast the spell. To utilize the energy from a timed event that will allow for a surge in available P.P.E., how do you time it? When do you pull the energy in - at the beginning, the middle, or the end? I certainly can't imagine starting a ritual when the Solar Eclipse reaches its zenith, only to have to wait another 25+ minutes for the spell to happen. On the other end, you don't know when the ritual will end so how can you properly time the conclusion of the ritual with any such event?

If that variable time for the spell is actually just a variable when the spell is initially known, then that's a different story... Is that maybe how it should be handled? When you learn the ritual version of a spell you roll those dice the first time and from then on, that spell always takes that long to cast?

If that's the cast, let's say the character has a Dimensional Portal ritual that takes 45 minutes (a roll of 3) to cast. Now the mage can correctly time the spell so that 45 minutes before the zenith, they all start. It's basically chanting and vocalizing and whatever else may be appropriate for the cultural touches (all GM based) and if they remain uninterrupted for the full 45 minutes (or less than a 30 second interruption) then at the end, when the Eclipse reaches its zenith, the sacrifice is made, the chanting reaches it's maximum fever pitch and all the P.P.E. the participants have and has been waiting to be used is now poured into the ritual to hopefully provide enough P.P.E., along with everything else, to allow the spell to be (finally) cast.

And if they are interrupted anytime before that 45 minutes is up, and it's an interruption of more than 30 seconds, then the ritual is ruined and 30% of the P.P.E. gathered for the spell is wasted, like some sort of premature misfire. Everyone basically loses 30% of their P.P.E., and any mystic artifacts with P.P.E. that were being used also lose 30%, etc...?

What about if the mage running the spell wants to use the rules for absorbing and holding extra P.P.E. from the natural energy of the Nexus leading up to the Eclipse? They can only hold that energy for a few minutes so does that get to occur in the middle of the ritual? Or just the beginning? All throughout? 45 minutes at 20 P.P.E. every melee (80 per minute) is a LOT of P.P.E... you wouldn't even need anyone else or a special event!

Anyway, any help or thoughts anyone can provide towards this would be appreciated. I just can't wrap my head around this. I'd like to give my magic-casting player access to rituals, but until I can understand how they work I don't really want to introduce them yet.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd say that the random time represents the minimum, but that the Mage can "hold fire" of the spell if he needs to.
So if the time rolled is 40 minutes, but it's 50 minutes until the eclipse (or whatever), then he can extend the "holding hands and chanting" portion of the ritual another 10 minutes.
If that makes sense.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I always interpreted it that the ritual length is simply how long the ritual you learned for the spell takes, and you roll once when the spell is learned. some rituals are shorter than others but all have the same effect.

[Library Ogre]

As others said... your version of Dimensional Portal (for example) takes X amount of time. There may be another version that takes Y amount of time. But every time you cast Dimensional portal, it takes X amount of time.

[Glistam]

That makes a lot of sense and goes a long way towards helping me visualize this. Thanks!

[ShadowLogan]

You could also have the duration to cast/perform the ritual as including setup time as example: RUE pg187 "Rituals frequently require props, components, and the drawing of a circle, triangle or pentagram." If the props have to be handled in a certain way, or the drawings a certain size and done in a certain style, etc that could be considered part of the ritual which would require the time frame to be larger to perform.

[Glistam]

Let's talk further about P.P.E., and why someone would ever bother to choose to use a ritual over an invocation.

Invocation: For the purposes of this discussion, when I refer to invocations I mean any regular, non-ritual spell regardless of magical specialty.

This is my understanding for how this works with an Invocation... The mage starts to cast the spell, and when done casting immediately expends the P.P.E. to make the spell effect happen. If the mage doesn't have enough P.P.E., the spell doesn't work. If the mage uses newer rules for acquiring more energy (such as from Rifts: Book of Magic or from Mysteries of Magic: The Heart of Magic) then that is done before the spell is cast, and the ability to cast a spell is still dependent upon how much P.P.E. the caster can have available.

Although someone else (including another mage) can donate their P.P.E. to a spellcaster in order to let them cast a spell, the spellcaster is still limited in how much P.P.E. they can hold at once. For example, with it's 1,000 P.P.E. cost there should be very, very few mortal spellcasters that could ever be able to hold enough P.P.E. to cast Dimensional Portal as an invocation. This is (as I see it) the drawback to the invocation and what makes Rituals actually worth pursuing.

With a ritual, as I'm trying to continue to envision, no ONE person is responsible for feeding ALL the energy into the spell. All of the participants, by following the specific directions of the spell leader, are able to mix and direct their energies together in powering the spell after the proper amount of time has passed. At that time, their energy mixes with any available ambient energy (such as from a Ley line, a Nexus, a sacrifice, etcetera) and are able to be directed into the spell.

Can a practitioner of magic, casting a ritual on a Ley line, draw P.P.E. from the Ley line every melee while casting the ritual in order to power it? Does the ritual itself allow the mage to transcend the usual limit of how much extra P.P.E. he can gather and hold? It makes a sort of sense and if true, would make rituals dangerously awesome. Working a ritual on a Ley line would let the mage tap into the 10 P.P.E. per melee that a Ley line provides - that would be 40 P.P.E. per minute. After a 25 minute ritual the mage could have drawn 1,000 P.P.E. just from the Ley line! This would be doubled at a Nexus, allowing a mage to cast Dimensional Portal as a ritual by himself without having to use any of his own P.P.E.!

It's tough for me to interpret - some of the flavor text in 2 of the books seems to indicate to me that this is not true:

Similarly, a delay could prevent the ritual from being completed if the sorcerer is trying to draw upon nexus energy at a specific moment.

My example above provided thousands of P.P.E. just from a basic Ley line or Nexus, and that was before any moments of power. So why would the ritual-casting mage need to focus on a specific moment of high energy if they already could draw more energy than they know what to do with? I'm not sure, but I don't know how else to interpret those passages.

Some other evidence (just flavor text, really) for this is found on page 149 of Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms with the NPC "Mad Melody."

In some cases, the performance is all illusionary, but when performing near a ley line or nexus point, she will actually open a dimensional rift or open herself to new, unknown supernatural forces. Obviously, this can result in unforeseen and dangerous events, but that just makes her show all the more exciting.

Of course, there's also evidence (again, flavor text) against this idea found on page 85 of the Heroes Unlimited GM's Guide.

In a nutshell, The Enlightenment and The Society of the Mystic Font have bickered over the control of a ley line nexus in town , but it has never escalated into anything serious or life threatening. That has begun to change as a planetary alignment draws near. The alignment will cause the already powerful nexus to surge with massive amounts of mystic energy (P.P.E.). Both of the groups have guild houses on the contributing ley lines, but neither will forego the chance to tap the incredible energy of the upcoming conjunction.

If a mage can just tap a Ley Line or Nexus for energy and fuel it into a Ritual as it's being conducted, why would the extra P.P.E. produced by special events like the equinoxes, solstices, eclipses, etc. even matter? But if the energy from such places could only be drawn in at the conclusion of the ritual, when all the other sources provide their energy as well, then can there even be enough energy for some of the big events? Even then, that energy is available for a period of time (sometimes short, sometimes long), so HOW could it even all be utilized to best effect?

I feel like the more I delve into this in order to understand it, the less I understand it. I understand the flavor and descriptive text for all this, I'm just trying to get a handle on the mechanics of it all.

[Slight001]

My guess is you are overthinking it and that the topic in question might be suffering from multiple writer syndrome (where multiple writers each talk about the same thing and manage to create very different wordings... resulting in confusion.)

Personally I've never had a problem with rituals in game as I largely ignore the game mechanics and go with the fluff concepts for deriving the mechanics I use in a game.

[eliakon]

The use of a special event is that you can have the PPE from it, in ADDITION to the PPE from the people involved.
So...if you have a mage with a PPE of 150, ten cultists with 5 PPE each, an a nexus....
The mage over charges....that's now 450 PPE, and the cultists are worth 50....so now you can cast a spell that costs 500....if your 'event' provides 1500...then you can cast your 2,000 PPE spell.
Similarly if you have a thousand people....they can all donate 2 PPE...to a ritual. I don't think they can donate to a normal spell.

As for the variability of rituals....I see that as 'some times people are faster with their chanting' Its like when you do something in a group...some times people talk faster or slower, or miss cues....that adds up to extra minutes...as well as stuff like, adjusting for the transit of Venus, or making sure that all the tiles tossed are squared off or what have you....

[Nightmask]

The use of a special event is that you can have the PPE from it, in ADDITION to the PPE from the people involved.
So...if you have a mage with a PPE of 150, ten cultists with 5 PPE each, an a nexus....
The mage over charges....that's now 450 PPE, and the cultists are worth 50....so now you can cast a spell that costs 500....if your 'event' provides 1500...then you can cast your 2,000 PPE spell.
Similarly if you have a thousand people....they can all donate 2 PPE...to a ritual. I don't think they can donate to a normal spell.

As for the variability of rituals....I see that as 'some times people are faster with their chanting' Its like when you do something in a group...some times people talk faster or slower, or miss cues....that adds up to extra minutes...as well as stuff like, adjusting for the transit of Venus, or making sure that all the tiles tossed are squared off or what have you....

Pretty much this. The variable time is simply the result of individual factors at the time altering how rapidly you can drain that PPE and channel it into the spell, since even fanatical cultists aren't machine precise the build-up to the PPE release and getting everyone synced will vary between castings just as the caster's own portion will vary depending on esoteric things that are mechanically reflected in the variable casting time (he's having a bad day so has more trouble getting into the focus compared to a day he's really sharp and on the ball for example).

[Glistam]

My guess is you are overthinking it and that the topic in question might be suffering from multiple writer syndrome (where multiple writers each talk about the same thing and manage to create very different wordings... resulting in confusion.)

Personally I've never had a problem with rituals in game as I largely ignore the game mechanics and go with the fluff concepts for deriving the mechanics I use in a game.

It's possible... I've over thought other Palladium mechanics before, much to my own detriment.

What are the mechanics you've developed for this?

[Slight001]

My guess is you are overthinking it and that the topic in question might be suffering from multiple writer syndrome (where multiple writers each talk about the same thing and manage to create very different wordings... resulting in confusion.)

Personally I've never had a problem with rituals in game as I largely ignore the game mechanics and go with the fluff concepts for deriving the mechanics I use in a game.

It's possible... I've over thought other Palladium mechanics before, much to my own detriment.

What are the mechanics you've developed for this?

base of 30 minutes, plus 10 minutes per level of the spell being cast plus 2 minutes per individual involved.

I created these mostly for myself. My players had no interest in ritual magic.

[Glistam]

I don't think my player will have any interest in Ritual Magic either, but it's what he's getting.

I think this is what I've worked out:

• Each ritual is unique; the time to cast it is rolled once when the spell is learned, and that's how long it takes for that mage to cast it.
• The act of casting a ritual spell allows for multiple sources of energy to be directed into the spell, without requiring the mage to try and absorb and hold all that energy. The ritual primes these sources of energy for this task. Such sources could be any or all of:
  
  • The mage's P.P.E.
  • The full P.P.E. amount of all the other participants.
  • Any sacrifices performed at the conclusion of the ritual (willing or unwilling).
  • Any P.P.E. from talismen or other magical storage devices being utilized.
  • Ley Line or Nexus energy available at the conclusion of the ritual.
• An interruption of more than 30 seconds will stop the ritual and cause 30% of the total available P.P.E. to leak away. This includes:
  
  • The mage's available P.P.E.... reduced by 30%.
  • The P.P.E. of all the participants... reduced by 30%
  • The P.P.E. of any sacrificial victims who have been willing participants in the ritual... reduced by 30%.
    
    But, if the victim has been resisting the ritual they do not lose any P.P.E. (which in a twisted way makes them even more valuable if the ritual has to be immediately restarted).
  • The P.P.E. of any P.P.E. storage devices... reduced by 30%.
  • The P.P.E. available from the Ley Line or Nexus... reduced by 30%, but only for that melee round (or whatever appropriate time frame if the energy is coming at another interval).
• If any of the other participants are removed from the ritual, their P.P.E. becomes unavailable.
• If the leader of the ritual is incapacitated or removed from the ritual, the ritual will be ended prematurely (see the 30% P.P.E. losses, above) unless one of the other participants also knows the ritual and can take over casting it. In such a case, the loss of the leader only removes the leader's P.P.E. from the ritual.

This is a lot of P.P.E. being gathered, focused and flung around. In the case of rituals that end after a 30 second interruption I feel it would be appropriate to have all that P.P.E. "lost" actually somehow matter - Nightbane book 3: Through the Glass Darkly has some good ideas in that regard that I'm thinking would be appropriate to implement.

As much as I like them for casting invocations, I believe the "overcharging" rules which have been introduced into Palladium with the printing of the Rifts: Book of Magic and Palladium Fantasy Mysteries of Magic: The Heart of Magic books have taken away a lot of the need for casting spells as rituals. A mage trying to build up their P.P.E. using those rules so they can cast a spell could be seen or interpreted as performing a ritual. It takes time to build up the charge of P.P.E. they might be looking for, and that can take several minutes depending on how they do it and which magic rules from which book they use.

Still though, I feel rituals have their place. At the least, even with "overcharging" mages still can't absorb and hold enough P.P.E. for those really big spells, no matter how much is available around them. The mage as a P.P.E. battery has a finite limit, and an invocation spell that costs more P.P.E. then they can actually hold onto is out of their reach. Enter the ritual - multiple mages, or a mage with multiple followers, or even just a lone mage during a big celestial event... they all can now work together to exceed the P.P.E. pool limit of even the most powerful mage and allow the bigger spells to actually be cast.

[Glistam]

So you know the story... a couple of kids find some book and within its pages they discover detailed instructions for how to do a ritual which will grant them some sort of wish, or power, or whatever. They follow those instructions and are able to conjure up some sort of creature, but then they scuff one of the circle's lines, or knock over a candle, or something else, and everything goes horribly wrong.

Rituals are a complex series of instructions which, if followed properly, result in a spell being successfully cast. They aren't as willpower-intensive as Spell Invocations, which require so much more focus and belief. Thus, even a group of novices should be able to take a properly written ritual and cast the spell as long as they follow its directions precisely and they can produce the P.P.E.. Rarely though do such things work out well.

The first question that comes to mind is, why would a mage record a spell in such a way? Don't they jealously guard their secrets? Well, yes and no. There are a number of reasons why a ritual spell like this may be found, and they can range from a desire to ensure certain mystic secrets could be utilized in times of need, to evil forces hoping to trick the unwary. The reason may never be known but in any case, such things should always be rare.

So how do we take the ritual rules and make this possible? This is my first pass attempt at rules on the subject:

FIRST, The ritual has to be initially transcribed by a mage who actually knows the spell. This mage will detail out the diagrams, the components needed, their placements, the chants to recite, etcetera. In order to record this spell such that non-mages can use it, the mage must also consider the P.P.E. cost and how to make that up via the minimum number of people required, or how it can only be cast in certain locations at certain times, or the need for an animal sacrifice, or any and all of those in combination, etcetera.

From a game mechanics perspective, the mage initially transcribing it needs to know the spell already, and must successfully roll on both his Principles of Magic skill and his Literacy skill for that language. A failure on either skill indicates the transcription is flawed - GM's discretion as to what might happen when the spell is attempted (failure, backfire, unintended side effect, etcetera). A success on both skills indicates the transcription is accurate.

If the mage is truly trying to transcribe the spell in such a way that even non-mages who follow its instructions will be able to cast it, then care must be taken to make sure that there will be enough P.P.E. for the spell to work if the directions are followed. This can be be calculated and worked into the directions using these guidelines:

• Each person involved in the ritual should be considered to be able to provide at least 5 P.P.E.
• A sacrificed animal should, upon its death at the completion of the ritual, be able to provide at least 10 P.P.E. per 2D6 in its base and/or 4 P.P.E. per 1D6 in its base.
  
  i.e., an animal with a 3D6 P.P.E. base should be considered to be able to provide at least 14 P.P.E. when sacrificed. The amount may likely be higher, but rarely should be lower.
• The P.P.E. from a Ley Line or Nexus should be considered in full for the casting time that the transcribing mage details.
  
  i.e., if designed to take place on a Ley line Nexus, during the summer solstice, then the P.P.E. that can be gathered at that moment should be considered in full, as the ritual directions will account for the direction of that energy into the spell upon its completions.
• Any other artifacts which can provide P.P.E. can be considered and recorded, and then it will be the reader's job to locate it if they wish to follow the directions exactly.
• The spell will take the maximum amount of time that a ritual can take. Don't even roll, just assume the maximum.

So for two examples: to cast the ritual "Astral Projection" as a ritual in this manner the transcribing mage may list that two people are required to perform the ritual, or one person and a small animal must be sacrificed, or it be performed at a Ley line location, etcetera. An "Exorcism" ritual could require a minimum of 6 dedicated participants.

SECOND, The reader must now read and try to understand how to follow the spell. This requires a successful Literacy roll at, and a time investment of 2 hours per spell level of the spell. Failure on the Literacy roll requires another 2 hours per spell level before trying again. In a pressure situation this time investment can be waived if the reader makes a Literacy roll at -40%, but this is dangerous - in such a case, the G.M. makes the roll and informs the player of a failure only if the roll was over the base skill. If the roll for the skill falls within the area of the 40% penalty then unbeknownst to the reader he has gained a flawed understanding of the spell and the results could be disastrous! The effect will be similar to if the spell was transcribed incorrectly, and if both are true then woe to whoever is involved when this thing is cast.

Two other skills can affect this:
A successful Lore: Magic skill will identify whether or not this ritual is a real, transcribed magical ritual or just someone's version of nonsense and gibberish. This skill also will reduce the time investment to understand how to follow the spell by half. It does not affect the Literacy roll itself, nor does it affect the penalty one incurs when they decide to skip the time investment.

A successful Principles of Magic skill will do everything that Lore: Magic will do here, plus actually identify the spell (i.e., it may be listed as a simple communication spell, but it's really a summoning spell!). In this case also the Literacy skill roll penalty to understand the spell without the time investment is reduced to only -20%. A second successful Principles of Magic skill roll, made after a successful Literacy roll and the time investment of 1 hour per spell level, will allow the reader to identify if the transcribed spell is flawed.

THIRD, Now the reader is ready to try and cast the spell. This requires the leader to roll once again on their Literacy skill with a -40% penalty to succeed. Conversely, if they have the Lore: Magic skill they may reduce that penalty to -20%, and if they have the Principles of Magic skill they may instead roll against that skill to successfully cast the spell. A failure is at the GM's discretion - nothing can happen, or if a lot of P.P.E. was involved then some effect can occur at the G.M.'s whim. On a successful roll, if there is enough P.P.E. to cast the spell, and the rolls earlier to transcribe and understand the spell were all successful, then the ritual spell is cast successfully!

If there isn't enough P.P.E. but there's still a lot of P.P.E., or if the transcription or understanding rolls were failures earlier, then we're back into the realm of G.M. whimsy as for what actually occurs. Usually though, if fiction can be believed, it should be bad for those who attempted such a feat without the proper understanding.

[Nekira Sudacne]

A pretty good system! and much less slapdash than the current scattered ruleset.

Just don't forget the last requirement of all magic, belief. If the Teenager who found the book dosen't honestly beleive it'll work, it will not. It's kind of like beliving in santa clause at a later age--you have to believe dispite lack of evidence before the proof will provide itself.

[Nightmask]

A pretty good system! and much less slapdash than the current scattered ruleset.

Just don't forget the last requirement of all magic, belief. If the Teenager who found the book dosen't honestly beleive it'll work, it will not. It's kind of like beliving in santa clause at a later age--you have to believe dispite lack of evidence before the proof will provide itself.

Except it would hardly be the first time we've seen stories where the non-believer does such a ritual but it works anyway. It could be similar to how the nega-psychic subtracts PPE in such a situation, where everyone else committing to things while his own PPE is deducted. If it's still enough the ritual still works complete with the non-believer going 'Oh my God it actually worked!' and becoming a believer.

[Nekira Sudacne]

A pretty good system! and much less slapdash than the current scattered ruleset.

Just don't forget the last requirement of all magic, belief. If the Teenager who found the book dosen't honestly beleive it'll work, it will not. It's kind of like beliving in santa clause at a later age--you have to believe dispite lack of evidence before the proof will provide itself.

Except it would hardly be the first time we've seen stories where the non-believer does such a ritual but it works anyway. It could be similar to how the nega-psychic subtracts PPE in such a situation, where everyone else committing to things while his own PPE is deducted. If it's still enough the ritual still works complete with the non-believer going 'Oh my God it actually worked!' and becoming a believer.

I don't recall any cannonical examples of that happening in Palladium, conversly I do recall the rules saying that can't happen in the system.

[Nightmask]

A pretty good system! and much less slapdash than the current scattered ruleset.

Just don't forget the last requirement of all magic, belief. If the Teenager who found the book dosen't honestly beleive it'll work, it will not. It's kind of like beliving in santa clause at a later age--you have to believe dispite lack of evidence before the proof will provide itself.

Except it would hardly be the first time we've seen stories where the non-believer does such a ritual but it works anyway. It could be similar to how the nega-psychic subtracts PPE in such a situation, where everyone else committing to things while his own PPE is deducted. If it's still enough the ritual still works complete with the non-believer going 'Oh my God it actually worked!' and becoming a believer.

I don't recall any cannonical examples of that happening in Palladium, conversly I do recall the rules saying that can't happen in the system.

Considering what's being discussed is something that's not in the canon what the rules say aren't particularly relevant, since a non-mage teenager by the rules couldn't ever cast a spell ritual or otherwise even if they believed in magic but given such things have been shown happening in a variety of media if one wishes to consider such things and including them in the game then they have to consider how to reflect the impact of someone who doesn't really believe when it comes to casting a ritual particularly if they're leading it.

[Glistam]

Step 1: Belief and Step 2: Mental Discipline/Conviction both refer to learning magic. Mind you, I don't believe it's out of the question to require belief or conviction in order to successfully cast a spell, but in the case of a ritual I would rule that you could get away with less of both.

Personally, if someone who had 100% belief and conviction that magic wasn't real tried to follow the directions to cast a ritual (using the house rule idea I outlined above) then I would first question why they even bothered going through all that trouble. Then if that question had a convincing answer I would probably have the ritual fail to work. Otherwise, I would think the very act of trying to cast a ritual from a book means you must have some belief and/or conviction. Even hope. In the case of a properly cast Ritual I would say that's probably enough.

[Nekira Sudacne]

A pretty good system! and much less slapdash than the current scattered ruleset.

Just don't forget the last requirement of all magic, belief. If the Teenager who found the book dosen't honestly beleive it'll work, it will not. It's kind of like beliving in santa clause at a later age--you have to believe dispite lack of evidence before the proof will provide itself.

Except it would hardly be the first time we've seen stories where the non-believer does such a ritual but it works anyway. It could be similar to how the nega-psychic subtracts PPE in such a situation, where everyone else committing to things while his own PPE is deducted. If it's still enough the ritual still works complete with the non-believer going 'Oh my God it actually worked!' and becoming a believer.

I don't recall any cannonical examples of that happening in Palladium, conversly I do recall the rules saying that can't happen in the system.

Considering what's being discussed is something that's not in the canon what the rules say aren't particularly relevant, since a non-mage teenager by the rules couldn't ever cast a spell ritual or otherwise even if they believed in magic but given such things have been shown happening in a variety of media if one wishes to consider such things and including them in the game then they have to consider how to reflect the impact of someone who doesn't really believe when it comes to casting a ritual particularly if they're leading it.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is. are you trying to say "Your statement about the rules is wrong if I choose to ignore the rules?"

Well...no. The rules are there, weather or not you choose to ignore them has no bearing on the discussion.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Step 1: Belief and Step 2: Mental Discipline/Conviction both refer to learning magic. Mind you, I don't believe it's out of the question to require belief or conviction in order to successfully cast a spell, but in the case of a ritual I would rule that you could get away with less of both.

Personally, if someone who had 100% belief and conviction that magic wasn't real tried to follow the directions to cast a ritual (using the house rule idea I outlined above) then I would first question why they even bothered going through all that trouble. Then if that question had a convincing answer I would probably have the ritual fail to work. Otherwise, I would think the very act of trying to cast a ritual from a book means you must have some belief and/or conviction. Even hope. In the case of a properly cast Ritual I would say that's probably enough.

There are some reasons. For example, what if it's a Skeptic who gets the book and is putting on the ritual with some friends to prove that magic is fake to some friends by following the steps exactly. Because he has no belief that it will work, it will not work, but if someone who does beleive is actually running the ritual, it would work.

[Nightmask]

A pretty good system! and much less slapdash than the current scattered ruleset.

Just don't forget the last requirement of all magic, belief. If the Teenager who found the book dosen't honestly beleive it'll work, it will not. It's kind of like beliving in santa clause at a later age--you have to believe dispite lack of evidence before the proof will provide itself.

Except it would hardly be the first time we've seen stories where the non-believer does such a ritual but it works anyway. It could be similar to how the nega-psychic subtracts PPE in such a situation, where everyone else committing to things while his own PPE is deducted. If it's still enough the ritual still works complete with the non-believer going 'Oh my God it actually worked!' and becoming a believer.

I don't recall any cannonical examples of that happening in Palladium, conversly I do recall the rules saying that can't happen in the system.

Considering what's being discussed is something that's not in the canon what the rules say aren't particularly relevant, since a non-mage teenager by the rules couldn't ever cast a spell ritual or otherwise even if they believed in magic but given such things have been shown happening in a variety of media if one wishes to consider such things and including them in the game then they have to consider how to reflect the impact of someone who doesn't really believe when it comes to casting a ritual particularly if they're leading it.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is. are you trying to say "Your statement about the rules is wrong if I choose to ignore the rules?"

Well...no. The rules are there, weather or not you choose to ignore them has no bearing on the discussion.

No, the rules have no bearing when what's being discussed is someone's house rule since it by definition replaces whatever the existing rules are, so making a statement about something not being by the rules is irrelevant because those rules aren't being considered.

Also it's 'whether' not 'weather', 'weather' is a reference to, you know, the weather like whether it's raining outside or sunny.

[Nightmask]

Step 1: Belief and Step 2: Mental Discipline/Conviction both refer to learning magic. Mind you, I don't believe it's out of the question to require belief or conviction in order to successfully cast a spell, but in the case of a ritual I would rule that you could get away with less of both.

Personally, if someone who had 100% belief and conviction that magic wasn't real tried to follow the directions to cast a ritual (using the house rule idea I outlined above) then I would first question why they even bothered going through all that trouble. Then if that question had a convincing answer I would probably have the ritual fail to work. Otherwise, I would think the very act of trying to cast a ritual from a book means you must have some belief and/or conviction. Even hope. In the case of a properly cast Ritual I would say that's probably enough.

Someone could be doing it as a lark or as a deception, like a con man, figuring 'yeah this stuff is nonsense but I can use this to con people into giving me money and it's easier than making up something on my own' only for the belief of those conned believers making the ritual he didn't believe in actually work. So he goes through the motions, the victims of his con go along with complete belief in him, and the ritual works. Remember there's way more than just the person who's running the ritual involved, there's an entire group of people involved and those dozens of people who believe certainly should count for more than the one who doesn't.

[Glistam]

So I've utilized this idea in my Heroes Unlimited game, and I've found that I needed to make one modification so far. As I fleshed out the book that my players found, I realized that to "make up" the P.P.E. costs as per my original write-up was going to be phenominally ridiculous. Covens would be needed, and that didn't quite fit the vision I had. So, thinking back on it, I recalled a Sorcerous Proficiency from Nightbane Book 3: Through the Glass Darkly, which lets someone cast ritual spells at half P.P.E. cost if they follow certain trappings (read: instructions) to the letter. I thought that could apply here as well, so I factored that into the rituals and I was much happier with the results.

I also considered the Alcolyte O.C.C. from Through the Glass Darkly as an "upgrade" to the average person, and used 17 P.P.E. per Alcolyte as an assumption for the one spell I inserted them into.

Here's what I'm presenting them:

Final Thoughts: Last Hour Confessions of Ja Leatha
Written by Ja Leatha, but collected and bound by an Isiah Penovich

This book, written entirely in Latin, dates back to somewhere between 300 A.D. and 600 A.D.. It's a collection of letters and journal entries by a self-proclaimed "sorcerer" named Ja Leatha as he awaited execution. The first part of the book contains apology after apology to dozens of people and some towns, expressing remorse for all the suffering his careless actions caused. In this bid for forgiveness he goes into great detail as to all the havoc his ego and quest for power caused.

G.M. note: a successful Lore: Demon & Monster roll will reveal that the trouble he describes was caused by the various types of entities.

The second part of the book contains five spell formulas, along with detailed instructions for how one could immediately cast them! These spells seem to be a combination of what he used to cause this trouble, along with ways to try and fix it - all preserved so that someone else could learn from his mistakes and try to clean up his mess.

G.M. note: All five rituals are detailed in such a way that if someone understood the directions thoroughly and followed those directions to the letter, they would be able to cast the spell without having to be a practitioner of magic (caster spell level would be seven - the same level Ja Lathea was when these spells were inscribed)! Additionally, a practitioner of magic can use this book to learn any of these spells as rituals in only half the usual time it takes to learn a spell.

The five spells listed within:

CALL AND BIND THE INVISIBLE SERVANTS
Time to cast: One hour and fifteen minutes.
Requirements: Ley Line or Nexus, animal sacrifice, equinox or solstice, dawn, seven or more trained participants (acolytes).
Description: For this ritual to work it must be performed at a place of mystic power (Ley Line or Nexus). A minimum of six acolytes must chant in unison with the ritual leader for the entire hour and fifteen minutes before dawn on the morning of the solstice or equinox. As the sun rises each member kills a large rat, careful to prevent any blood from spilling onto or into the circle. The group sacrifice as the sun rises completes the ritual.
Note: This spell is flawed. Whenever it is cast, there is a 10% chance that a small, invisible portal to the Astral Plane will open and remain open for 1D6 hours. Entities and other Astral denizens may slip through during that time.
Spell: This is the Level 12 spell Summon and Control Entity (P.P.E. cost: 250) as per the HU2 GM's Guide, page 195, but with the flaw as noted above. Even if a mage learns this spell from this book, the flaw remains.

SEAL THE BREACH
Time to cast: One hour and fifteen minutes.
Requirements: Ley Line or Nexus, equinox or solstice, dawn, twelve or more participants.
Description: For this ritual to work it must be performed at a place of mystic power (Ley Line or Nexus). A large number of people (11 or more) must chant in unison with the ritual leader for the entire hour before dawn on the morning of the solstice or equinox. The sunrise completes the ritual.
Note: The act of casting this spell will drain the ritual leader only of 2 P.P.E. permanently.
Spell: This is the Level 14 Close Rift spell (P.P.E. cost: 200+) as per the HU2 GM's Guide, page 196.

DOORWAY OF THE MISTS
Time to cast: Ten minutes.
Requirements: Ley Line or Nexus, midday or midnight, three or more participants
Description: For this ritual to work it must be performed at a place of mystic power (Ley Line or Nexus). Two (2) or more people chant in unison with the ritual leader for the entire ten minutes before midday or midnight. The sun reaching its zenith (midday) or the bells tolling twelve am (midnight) complete the ritual.
Spell: This is the level spell 7 spell Astral Portal (P.P.E. cost: 60) as per the Nightbane Between the Shadows book, page 126.

REPEL THE UNEARTHLY
Time to cast: Ten minutes.
Requirements: Seven or more participants.
Description: For this ritual to work several people (6 or more) must chant in unison with the ritual leader for the entire ten minutes. This completes the ritual.
Spell: This is the level 10 spell Banishment (P.P.E. cost: 65) as per the HU2 book, page 334.

ENCHANT THE ETHEREAL SLAYER
Time to cast: One hour and fifteen minutes.
Requirements: Ley Line or Nexus, animal sacrifice, five or more participants, a knife.
Description: For this ritual to work it must be performed at a place of mystic power (Ley Line or Nexus). Four (4) people chant in unison with the ritual leader for the entire hour and fifteen minutes. At the conclusion of that time the ritual leader uses the knife to slit the throats of four rabbits. The sacrifice of the animals completes the ritual and empowers the knife with the spells effects.
Spell: This is the level 11 spell The Finger of Lictalon (P.P.E. cost: 150) as per the HU2 book, page 335.