Instant Kills and Faster Combat!? Maybe...

[slade the sniper]

Well, trying to post from work and the forums are not taking it for some reason, keeps giving me a 404 but it keeps the title, but won't accept the copy/paste. I will try to fix the post when I get off work
Having never been a big fan of how most role playing games handle damage, I think that there may be a different way to measure damage, while also increasing lethality and possibly reducing the amount of time that combat takes.
When discussing combat effectiveness, there are two terms that are vitally important, which are “probability of hit” and “probability of kill.” When translated into role playing game terminology, we end up with:
Probability of Hit is equal to the skill of the attacker in %
Probability of Kill is equal to the chance that an attack will kill the target.

Probability of Hit needs no further elaboration, as it is already denoted on a character sheet as the weapon skill or the bonus to use a certain weapon.
Probability of Kill is determined by the maximum damage a certain weapon can do divided by the hit points of the target. This will give a number that is converted to a %, and if that number or below is rolled on a d100, then the target is destroyed by that attack.

-STS

[Alrik Vas]

describe to me how what yo are proposing would be used in practice.

[jaymz]

Probability to hit would be a percentage based strike roll essentially if I'm reading this right. It owuld replace the standard d20 strike roll.

As for probability to kill....

We will use an M-16 5.56mm rifle.

If my character has 27 hit points and is hit by an M-16 round that does 3d6 (just pulling the number out of my butt) then max damage of 18 divided by 27 hit points gives a 67% chance of killing me every time I am hit.

My only question is this....a .50 does 7d6 or max 42. In the above example that would be auto kill. I know combat should be deadly and dangerous but I personally to do not have fun if my character gets waxed the first combat out based on a random die roll of a percentile...obviously a save vs coma/death would be appropriate but still. Unless of course you are meaning for this to be used against "mooks" and the like and not against the "lieutenants" and "bosses"

[Alrik Vas]

I see. So mass amounts of trauma are a chance for a kill even if you don't do all the damage. Seems fine to me. Most groups I know go off the damage actually dealt and take into consideration the weapon type used.

Like, a bullet has a higher kill ratio than a bat, but with a high PS, a bat can do considerably more damage, but I'd compare that to the HP+SDC total, rather than just HP.

[Proseksword]

This may work in circumstances where the opponent's are more closely matched, but I imagine that this could make combat virtually impossible against targets with large amounts of MDC/SDC - Someone armed with a CV-212 Laser Rifle will deal a maximum of 36 MDC. vs a Glitter Boy (770 MDC) that translates into around a 5% chance of a kill. The Glitter Boy's Boom Gun, in return, will auto-kill most anything smaller than a large robot vehicle. Worse, while a group of fighters with CV-212s under the standard rules could combine to wear down the Glitter Boy's armor, under these rules, the Glitter Boy retains its full defensive value against every shot.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, but you could have the damage actually happen regardless, increasing kill chance with every shot.

[eliakon]

Yeah, but you could have the damage actually happen regardless, increasing kill chance with every shot.

At which point I am not seeing how you gained anything by having a 'instant death' mechanic in the first place......

[Alrik Vas]

It would still be a lot faster than dealing all 770 MDC. Plus with 10 people all shooting the chance of getting under 5% from the get-go is substantially improved.

Though if you want to take out a GB fast, hit it with the main gun on the naruni hover tank. it's like what, 4d6x10? See, heavy weapon takes down heavy target. hurrah.

[eliakon]

I'm not sure I am seeing what the advantage of a % "thou art dead" is myself. While its nice for vast statistical analysis, and possibly of use for very large mass combats I would feel cheated, personally, as a player if I shot my target and it 'just died, nice shot'. And I would be incensed if some one shot ME and the GM said, "they rolled under 9%, sorry your dead." Making the utility of it in actual game play unclear.

[Alrik Vas]

Well...there are so many things in rifts that do exactly that, and it's not a 9%...mute like 67%...

most armor between 60-100 MDC vs boom gun, missile volley, ATL-7, NE-700, annihilation etc.

Though I guess we're talking about rifle vs body armor here. Slade wants a faster, more realistic combat. Though for kills to be more prevalent per hit, you have to reduce the number of hits to what it is in real combat.

[Tiree]

The issue should be Auto Kill vs Auto Incapacitate. I am more inclined to auto-incapacitate a target versus kill it. This is mainly because you can hit a GB in the head, and that thin little armor should really rattle him up. I wouldn't even be surprised that it could knock him out.

But that's how I would roll if I wanted to get that Granular with combat.

I generally don't, I want combat to be quick, efficient, and I mess with HP/SDC/MDC mechanic anyways.

[Alrik Vas]

if you can mega damage punch , have boxing and call a knockout that results in a natural 20, I'd consider letting you incapacitate someone in power armor.

[Zer0 Kay]

If u want fast palladium combat use recon. The issue with the Palladium System is that the objective isn't to make it quick and lethal. If people wanted that they'd play warhammer 40K. They aren't going to spend an hour creating a character just to have it killed off in an hour.

[kaid]

I never saw much need to make palladium combat especially rifts combat more deadly than it already is. In the palladium system in general hitting your target is pretty easy especially with any sort of gun/energy weapon. At ranges many combats occur you need to roll more than a 4 to hit which is way easier than most game systems.

In hand to hand this is offset a bit by dodging and parrying but vs ranged weapons it is significantly harder to avoid being hit than it is to hit. Now take somebody in pretty high end environmental body armor like the CS old style heavy body armor which is 80 MDC. There are more than a few pulse rifles that can do 1d4x10 or 1d6x10 damage. Vs average rolls your body armor is good for 3-4 shots and 2-3 shots if they roll high for damage. If you don't use the optional GI joe rule even 1 point of MDC more than the capacity of your target instantly kills non enhanced people.

Most of the combat rules you are talking about would never really come into play in rifts because in general you are either fully health or instantly dead with nothing inbetween.

[slade the sniper]

First: I apologize for the first post...it only took 1/2 of the post, and then tried to edit it, but kept getting some weird 505 error when I hit submit...then I lost the ability to even see the forums for a few days. It was weird.

-STS

[slade the sniper]

Second: Apparently, my computer thinks that this is twitter and is limiting my posts to about 3 total lines of text....yipee.

-STS

[slade the sniper]

Example: weapon does 4d6 MD, so it will always 24 (4 x 6 = 24) divided by the current MDC of the target = the percent chance of killing it with that shot (always round down). If the roll fails, the weapon does normal damage. It is adding one step in each combat action in order to remove entire rounds of combat to save time.

-STS

[slade the sniper]

I'm not sure I am seeing what the advantage of a % "thou art dead" is myself. While its nice for vast statistical analysis, and possibly of use for very large mass combats I would feel cheated, personally, as a player if I shot my target and it 'just died, nice shot'. And I would be incensed if some one shot ME and the GM said, "they rolled under 9%, sorry your dead." Making the utility of it in actual game play unclear.

You could ignore it completely, apply it for heroes to one shot mooks, or apply to everyone to make combat much less time intensive and very risky.

-STS

[slade the sniper]

Yeah, but you could have the damage actually happen regardless, increasing kill chance with every shot.

This is exactly what was I describing in the second half of my post that got eaten...and tried to post above line by line... stupid internet! Every shot increases the chance of a catastrophic kill as the damage gets applied normally.

-STS

[slade the sniper]

I see. So mass amounts of trauma are a chance for a kill even if you don't do all the damage. Seems fine to me. Most groups I know go off the damage actually dealt and take into consideration the weapon type used.

Like, a bullet has a higher kill ratio than a bat, but with a high PS, a bat can do considerably more damage, but I'd compare that to the HP+SDC total, rather than just HP.

Yes, it would be total HP+SDC. I misspoke.

-STS

[taalismn]

[

You could ignore it completely, apply it for heroes to one shot mooks, or apply to everyone to make combat much less time intensive and very risky.

-STS

Mook: "You know, some of us red shirts/brown pants like the idea of maybe...just MAYBE...surviving combat and getting the drop on the PCs for once..."

[jaymz]

Hero "how cute, they think they matter...."

[taalismn]

That's why I think 'brown pants' is just as valid as 'red shirts'.
"...we're facing Bruce Willis?* Oh sh-"

*Megahero-class---One shot=1d4 kills against mook-level opponents

[slade the sniper]

[

You could ignore it completely, apply it for heroes to one shot mooks, or apply to everyone to make combat much less time intensive and very risky.

-STS

Mook: "You know, some of us red shirts/brown pants like the idea of maybe...just MAYBE...surviving combat and getting the drop on the PCs for once..."

I know, which is why there are no redshirts in my game...I apply this rule to all. Combat without risk defeats the purpose...I would just narrate it.

-STS

[Alrik Vas]

damn right, man. I throw all kinds of dangers and disastrous possibilities out there. If the PC's just "take some damage" and move on, there wasn't much of a fight. If they get a broken/severed limb or have lost their weapons due to catastrophic damage, then suddenly the danger has increased and the stakes have been raised. Of course, some "heroes" would retreat at that point, but fortunately my PC's are all gumption.

[CastorJack]

On of my methods for increasing combat speed has been to allow bonuses to be included in determining a Critical Hit. With most characters having a +2-5 to strike with fire arms it heavily increases damage dealt. It works fine for the other way as most Mooks will have lower stats and weaker weapons than my players (or don't receive this bonus). It encourages the use of cover which forces "called shots" which in RUE are a single action that does not include your +2 for aimed shots (unless you take Careful Aim) lowering their critical hit chance. This gives cover a greater advantage (which it should have) and allows player skill to play a larger roll in determining combat rather than random dice rolls.

Some of my players have gotten smart and use magic barriers, illusions, and other forms of cover to improve their chances in battle. Others use mobility to require higher to-hit rolls from the enemy. Just slugging it out is an option, but you will need something like a Glitter Boy to make this viable. Note:Infantry weapons do not receive critical hits vs. vehicles or giant robots. Instead they roll on the Robot Combat Damage table on a Critical Hit (in my rule set). Heavy weapons are classified as those inflicting Damage>1D4x10 M.D. in a single attack. Bursts don't count except from Rail Guns (designed to penetrate armor).

I know it seems like a lot of house rules but once you use it a few times it does speed up combat a round here and there as well as makes robots and other large machines more frightening compared to power armor. As a special note I do use the Vehicle Rule above for the Glitter Boy.

[Mack]

A minor rule that I like is to apply the Armor Penetrating rule to all rail guns. Double damage on a roll of 17+ (including bonuses), and triple damage from a Nat 20. Makes rail guns and other AP weapons much more deadly and more attractive to carry around. (Why else lug around a 100 pound weapon vice an 8 pound laser?)

This really makes a difference for power armor pilots who can easily rack up a good bonus to strike. Suddenly that typical 1D4x10 rail gun starts spitting out double damage a third of the time. And, of course, with a Boom Gun...

[Alrik Vas]

I make heavy use of the AP rule as well.

[Mechghost]

actually CastorJack called shots are 2 actions RUE Pg 361, not 1 action.

[jaymz]

Mack - I do the same...I am even thinking of applying it to lasers as well as they are less damage but "thinner" beam and longer ranged.

[Mack]

Mack - I do the same...I am even thinking of applying it to lasers as well as they are less damage but "thinner" beam and longer ranged.

I wouldn't argue if you do, but I like to keep it to rail guns, AP missiles, AP grenades, and the like. I find all of those have little advantage over energy weapons, so I give them a niche of possibly cranking out much higher than normal damage.

And aesthetically, I like that a player's strike bonus becomes more important. Now that old, half-broken down mercenary becomes much more valuable than some young buck. He may not move as well or carry as much, but he's got a knack for getting the most out of a rail gun.

[jaymz]

Yep...I just figure missiles and railguns already have an advantage over lasers so the AP on lasers isn't really much of an add on. I've toyed with extra damage for particle guns, some special effect for ion guns and maybe burn damage for an extra round with plasma...

[Alrik Vas]

I don't include extra burn damage for plasma, but i do have it set everything on fire. Makes a mess.

[slade the sniper]

Question: Is the 17+ critical strike an official rule?
Question: In there a book where all of the different weapon effects are codified, if any?

-STS

[jaymz]

RUE added the AP Missile rule.

18+ bonuses included does double damage. Natural 20 does triple. Make AP worth while again. Mack, and myself, add other weapons to include that rule.

[Noon]

I'm not sure I am seeing what the advantage of a % "thou art dead" is myself. While its nice for vast statistical analysis, and possibly of use for very large mass combats I would feel cheated, personally, as a player if I shot my target and it 'just died, nice shot'. And I would be incensed if some one shot ME and the GM said, "they rolled under 9%, sorry your dead." Making the utility of it in actual game play unclear.

You could ignore it completely, apply it for heroes to one shot mooks, or apply to everyone to make combat much less time intensive and very risky.

I'd do that if I it was a campaign that basically ignored the bulk of rules in the book and really had no combats in the campaign at all (or by default it'd have no combats)

[Alrik Vas]

RUE added the AP Missile rule.

18+ bonuses included does double damage. Natural 20 does triple. Make AP worth while again. Mack, and myself, add other weapons to include that rule.

I include a lot of stuff. Within 10ft ranged weapons do double damage, all surprise attacks are criticals, most anti-armor weapons (not just specifically AP) use the AP rule. Damage multipliers can get silly in games i run, but it helps the damage flow more dangerously so combat goes faster.

I also include a burst fire rule for any weapon that fires "single shot only" as long as it isn't something like a bolt action rifle. Expends 25% of a magazine (maximum of 10 shots) and deals a single round x2 of damage, but you take a -6 to strike.

Once had a glitterboy do this unload, from surprise, rolling a critical...was 3d6x40 damage. think he did like 480 or something. good times.

[jaymz]

Yeah I implemented different "bursts" too.

Semi Auto

Auto

Machine gun

Gatling gun

All due to increased rates of fire