Nightmask wrote:SolCannibal wrote:Shark_Force wrote:the daemonix did hold up to their end, except for the part where they cost tolkeen pretty much every single ally they had (not that they had a lot) the one time they were actually deployed into a fight.
I can see your point but wouldn't put the blame for that problem squarely in the Daemonix's shoulders (i was going to say lap, but with their morphology i not really most have that). For starters because it's fair to say from the text sources in the box that what got Tolkeen in that situation in the first place was Creed and his council's refusal to relocate Tolkeen - when that was a quite viable option for them almost up to the tragic end - along jingoistic and agressive stance toward the Coalition, going to the point of making an actual declaration of war first. That seemed clear even in pieces of 1st person fluff like Erin Tarn's final plea with Creed, so it relates to issues higher and farther than the decision to use the Daemonix.
That's really not a viable option, you don't just relocate an entire city that took generations to build up and all that population to some random location that unless it's in another dimension or other planet you're just going to have to fight or more again when the CS expands that far as they're quite clear about intending to conquer the entire planet and kill all non-humans and mages. They did what you expect from your leaders, acted to defend their people and the lands that belonged to them.
Unless you have the magical resources and infrastructure to do so - and it was implied in books, or at least in Erin's dialogue with Creed, the Council had the resources to dimensionally shift the cities behind their barrier to another locale or dimension. I wouldn't even consider such an option if something along those lines wasn't in the books already from what i remember.
Shark_Force wrote:if the daemonix led tolkeen to believe that they could be trusted to not engage in traditional demon behaviours, and then did not follow through on that promise, then yes, they screwed over tolkeen.
as i said, this is not unexpected. if you're not a complete and utter moron of epic proportions, you probably saw that coming miles away, and were indeed shocked that it took so long for it to become an issue.
but just because anyone with half a brain could have told you the daemonix were inevitably going to do that, doesn't mean the daemonix didn't deceive the people in tolkeen. tolkeen should have known better, yes, but it doesn't change the fact of their betrayal, it just means they were really really really stupid to not have been expecting it.
Wait, wait you're telling me the Daemonix screwed over and betrayed Tolkeen because by being more loyal and obedient minions than such demonic creatures usually are, they mislead the Council about its own capacity to manage an army of monsters?
Sorry, but i don't really see the Daemonix trying to trick the Tolkeenites on anything like that, specially when they hate most other demonic races and would be much happier without them along in "their" fight, not to mention that with Tolkeen's defeat they lost their main source of much valued magic-wielding bling and any repairs.
Shark_Force wrote:also, it's possible for a spellcaster to draw on the PPE of other people. so it didn't have to go to waste at all. granted, 30% of it would be unavailable to the shifter that called them, but 70% of it could have simply been used by their summoner to provide buff spells as required (since that person is a spellcaster and is required to be present to give them orders anyways, after all).
Daemonix already have "cannons". if you want them to deal a bit more damage at longer range, mass-produce some fire globes a few days in advance using all their PPE, and invest a few credits into a large burlap sack. if you're feeling really enthusiastic about spending resources towards improving them, you can even use ironwood spells to make MDC wooden armour and/or shields for them. you could *even* go so far as to provide them with talismans of useful damaging spells (just as one example, a level 8 caster - which i am confident tolkeen has - could grant sorcerous fury in a talisman, which provides a 2d4x10 bolt with a range of 2400 feet, and an extra 400 MDC, lasting 8 minutes - more than long enough to reach melee range if you're berserk enough to just charge, which sorcerous fury pretty much guarantees).
Spend some effort to make your cannon fodder important enough to shoot? sure. makes sense. but magic has an abundance of dirt-cheap solutions that require little or no time or resources for that. why would you spend hundreds or thousands of man-hours plus hundreds of thousands of credits worth of gemstones to do it? those resources were very poorly spent. just imagine the devices those techno-wizards could have developed instead. or heck, they could have just used the technology on humans who are actually loyal and trustworthy, and who have the judgment to make good use of the abilities you could potentially grant with TW bionics. something that would *actually* fit well for guerilla warfare, rather than a 20 foot tall demon who is rejected by other demons for being too stupid. someone that you can train to be useful for either guerilla warfare or conventional warfare. someone who doesn't look at your other citizens and fantasize about torturing them.
magic is amazing at turning nothing into something, if you have the knowledge. there's no need to spend a whole of something to create not much of something.
All those things there i agree with you - exploiting the PPE reserves of Daemonix to give ranged attacks and make them into even more effective behemoths is pretty valid on itself, as it fully equates them with mechas and armored vehicles, but the TW solution does not seem like the most cost-efficient way to do so in terms of time and resources to me either. Just having a saddle or howdah (or a water-proof cabin, as Daemonix can spend a bunch of time underwater) for a spellcaster commanding the damn thing would probably offer maximum versatility for mininum cost but risks the caster dying with the monster and even in Tolkeen magicians are a limited (and valued) national resource, so equipping them with stuff like fire globes and talismans with select spells would be more practical, not to mention it would liberate any shifters & other magicians to summon different critters in other fronts if need be, while the Daemonix were guided by soldiers or officers.
That said, these same PPE reserves mean the Daemonix can pack around high-powered TW ordnance that would be otherwise impratical outside of a ley line or nexus for most creatures of magic lesser than (some) greater demons or adult dragons (who can be just as unruly and hard to command and deal with in their own ways), what has value on itself. Overall i would say that unlike Brodkill, Gargoyles and lesser demons in general, Daemonix best tactical use is not as super-grunts but as living armored vehicles, fighting, transporting troops and heavy magical artillery in place of things like their costly in time and resources magical mecha, for example or transporting AND powering those devices techno-wizards could have developed instead of the canon implants, as you mentioned.