How would you build a magical tank corps.

[Blue_Lion]

You are a magical kingdom that has many mages and TW in your arm forces how would you build your Armor (tanks) corp.
Would you build an all custom TW tank or modify line model tanks. What would be your goals with man power. What would be your focus for TW mods.

Personally I would go wit modifying line model tanks, preferably some thing like the Iron hammer Main battle tank. It is one of my favorite tanks in the game even if it is in one of the earliest rifts books.
TW mods would focus on defensive spells, 1 an armor spell, 2 impervious to energy, 3 improved invisibility(mayabe one tank per 4 has illusionary terrain). I would tend to stay away from adding PPE weapons to the tank so that any one can use them. Might keep a stock pile of special rounds for when we need to fight something hard, such as meteor magical for foes that need magical damage AOE or annihilate for facing a adult/ancient dragon or AI.
Crew I would strive for all drivers to be TW trained as tankers trained for vehicle armorer, the rest of the crew could be non magical troops, if a second Mage is in the vehicle he would be in the vehicle commander slot so he can pop his head up to cast spells. The drivers main job is to keep up defensive spells and use invisibility for escapes.

[taalismn]

Modify existing models, leaving enough tech in working order that my troops can still fall back on the pure-tech in the event somebody uses something like an Anti-Magic Cloud or other magical disruption system*. A tank's already got a bulls-eye painted on it, so defense in depth.

(*If my opponent has means to disrupt BOTH magic and technology fielded at the same time, I'm going to assume they're as mean and rotten as I am, and I will order my people to retreat under cover of artillery until I can figure another way to kill my enemy. Since both of us apparently planned in-depth, it is going to be a campaign of maneuver, and I will try to gather as much intel as possible on my opponent)

[Blue_Lion]

Modify existing models, leaving enough tech in working order that my troops can still fall back on the pure-tech in the event somebody uses something like an Anti-Magic Cloud or other magical disruption system*. A tank's already got a bulls-eye painted on it, so defense in depth.

(*If my opponent has means to disrupt BOTH magic and technology fielded at the same time, I'm going to assume they're as mean and rotten as I am, and I will order my people to retreat under cover of artillery until I can figure another way to kill my enemy. Since both of us apparently planned in-depth, it is going to be a campaign of maneuver, and I will try to gather as much intel as possible on my opponent)

Sounds like you have a similar mind set as me I left most systems unmodified just added defensive spells.
How would you crew said tanks? Any spells that you would make a priority on? (you can have your military train TW in the spells as part of a sign up bonus for 4+years of service.)

[The Artist Formerly]

If you're going for an almost pure tech system, why bother with adding magic at all? Make the best tank you can with hardware you can afford and relegate magic to roles it's better at like supporting an economy, creating food and water, healing the injured or the occasional wiz-bang for spec ops efforts. TW gear is the best magic has to offer in combat, but has power considerations that can be a big limiter in extended fight. Those resources are better spent on other, more efficient weapons. Otherwise you have to deploy mages or psychics to recharge your tanks, which is expensive for a unit with such a potentially high mortality rate.

I suppose special magi-tech rounds for the tanks might work well, small investment efforts for special purpose fighting. The UWW got a lot of mileage out their specialty stuff. That would add versatility with a minimal investment of resources.

That said, use your magic to make the money, and then buy whatever tech you need.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd go with cheap materials, then augment them with magic.
Exactly HOW would depend on what exactly can or can not be accomplished with techno wizardry.

[Shark_Force]

invulnerability and/or impervious to energy would be the first priority. I agree that TW weapons are largely overrated as far as damage, but something like a TW net gun would be a worthwhile addition (though not necessarily for every tank).

a TW engine would also be a major draw. nuclear engines are crazy expensive. electric and gasoline engines have major logistics concerns. having a built-in TW electrical generator that can recharge the battery of an electric model would be incredibly useful, especially if it can also recharge the guns, and would be of only slightly lower priority than the impervious to energy spell. considering this is rifts earth, hover technology (which in some cases is noted as having a maximum altitude of several hundred feet) would be extremely desirable.

third priority would likely be some form of TW forcefield.

I would probably cheat the system somewhat and use ironwood spells to provide the armour plating. ideally manufactured with a TW device, since otherwise it involves a lot of high-level warlocks, or a fairly rare and expensive spell that uses a lot of PPE.

other possible changes would include teleportation or other forms of mobility (a tank which can literally drive through walls strikes me as an interesting possibility), and the means to create supporting troops (like a modified magic warrior spell that can surround your tank with infantry).

[eliakon]

Too many variables to give a straight answer. But I can give some starters.

First I would talk to my GM to find out what he will and will not allow TW to do. If I am the GM then I will have to make that decision. This is very important because the 'rules' in the RUE are just guidelines for individual GMs to build on/with. This is also important because what I decide is possible and what is impossible will affect what PCs TWs can do as well.

Next I would have to know what the sort of terrain my nation is in. Someplace that is all mountans and badlands is going to need a radically different load out then someplace that is all steppes and grasslands. A small nation in rifts earth is going to have less options than a major transgalactic empire like the UWW.

Once those are decided I would look at my actual armor units.
I would make sure that they basis of the tanks is technological enough that it can still work in an AMC, but magical enough that it counts as a 'tw device'. Thus getting the best of both world protection wise. Defensive armorments would have to include a MM launcher with plenty of reloads (tanks are good for carrying weight after all) for anti-missile defense, and assault roles. Main gun would likely be a physical cannon. This allows for a wide range of shells to be used, both magical and non-magical. Secondary weapon would be an energy weapon, most likely a particle beam.

the first armor unit I would make is a smaller/light unit similar to the stinger tank. The goal would to make sure that its small enough that it can drive through the opening of a mystic portal for ultra rapid maneuver capability

Next I would look at some specialized load outs of spells such as a stealth unit, a recon unit, a command unit, a point defense unit, etc.

[Tor]

I'm not sure how effective tanks would be unless you had some good flat terrain or they were manning walls. I would probably get something capable of firing missiles and enchant them with impervious-to-energy.

[Subjugator]

If I were going for magic, I'd use old SDC stuff (cheap!) And mod it with shields and magic weapons. Frankly I'd do what Taffy recommended and use tech for the main weapons and use magic for healing and specops.

[Blue_Lion]

I'm not sure how effective tanks would be unless you had some good flat terrain or they were manning walls. I would probably get something capable of firing missiles and enchant them with impervious-to-energy.

Tracked vehicles can actually handle surpassing ruff terrain. There are also hover tanks on the market. Many wheeled vehicles have trouble following trails of tanks in field. I do not think tanks are normally manning the walls main battle tanks typically are over 60 tons. The draw is in theory they are creeper than Giant robots and the same amount of fire power.

[Blue_Lion]

If you're going for an almost pure tech system, why bother with adding magic at all? Make the best tank you can with hardware you can afford and relegate magic to roles it's better at like supporting an economy, creating food and water, healing the injured or the occasional wiz-bang for spec ops efforts. TW gear is the best magic has to offer in combat, but has power considerations that can be a big limiter in extended fight. Those resources are better spent on other, more efficient weapons. Otherwise you have to deploy mages or psychics to recharge your tanks, which is expensive for a unit with such a potentially high mortality rate.

I suppose special magi-tech rounds for the tanks might work well, small investment efforts for special purpose fighting. The UWW got a lot of mileage out their specialty stuff. That would add versatility with a minimal investment of resources.

That said, use your magic to make the money, and then buy whatever tech you need.

My goal was to use magic to reduce the mortality rate of tanks. I went with a fairly top of the line tank and made it better with 3 spells 2 defense and 1 escape ambush. Using a TW driver means his job is to use protection spells to keep it alive then fall back using imp invs when it gets in trouble, I would likely teach him mend broken so they can repair and recharge when the fall back. Having a TW tank unit do this would give them high survivability while the enemy is more likely to need more time to repair damage.

Depending on the % of your force that is magical you could very easy have mages do just this and still have plenty of mages for other rolls.

[The Artist Formerly]

If you're going for an almost pure tech system, why bother with adding magic at all? Make the best tank you can with hardware you can afford and relegate magic to roles it's better at like supporting an economy, creating food and water, healing the injured or the occasional wiz-bang for spec ops efforts. TW gear is the best magic has to offer in combat, but has power considerations that can be a big limiter in extended fight. Those resources are better spent on other, more efficient weapons. Otherwise you have to deploy mages or psychics to recharge your tanks, which is expensive for a unit with such a potentially high mortality rate.

I suppose special magi-tech rounds for the tanks might work well, small investment efforts for special purpose fighting. The UWW got a lot of mileage out their specialty stuff. That would add versatility with a minimal investment of resources.

That said, use your magic to make the money, and then buy whatever tech you need.

My goal was to use magic to reduce the mortality rate of tanks. I went with a fairly top of the line tank and made it better with 3 spells 2 defense and 1 escape ambush. Using a TW driver means his job is to use protection spells to keep it alive then fall back using imp invs when it gets in trouble, I would likely teach him mend broken so they can repair and recharge when the fall back. Having a TW tank unit do this would give them high survivability while the enemy is more likely to need more time to repair damage.

Depending on the % of your force that is magical you could very easy have mages do just this and still have plenty of mages for other rolls.

Put that same effort into resource gating, energy generation or refinement, then take the money you generated and by Ulti-maxes to support your tanks. Cheap practical TW-magics, the kind that doesn't take any magic or psionic talent to use would make you a mint.

This would do two things for you. One, MONEY, the most valuable power source in the game. Magic, tech, psionic, the force? Doesn't matter, you can buy it all. Two, as a pro-magic group, your products would be putting lie to the CS' claim that magic is evil and out get you. Since your average human villager has no experience with magic and the CS brings wealth and tech that makes his life easier, they are clearly the good guys. If your side had that, then the CS would have to work a hell of a lot harder to get it done, and people would have a reason to not want to give up magic. In the Forgotten Realms, the harpers often use their goody-goody magic to help farmers and ranchers in areas they hold sway as a way to maintain relations and resist Zent infiltration. The CS is basically the same guys as the Zents, so the tactics would work for hippe mages in Rifts too.

That said, if you're hell bent for leather on fight with TW tanks, you need to push your efforts into two major groupings. One is make them, as you noted, more survivable. The second is to improve versatility.

First, to defend from an attack, we need to figure out how you kill a tank. Other tanks, anti-tank mines, gunships, power armor. All of these use explosives. So that spell in FOM that negates or reduces explosive hits is the first thing you load. You're going to want it be a self-activating spell, and reloadable. Any thing that extends the duration of the spell helps out. MDC boosting is an obvious benefit because it's good against everything, but against explosives the boost from most of the armor spells I'm aware of isn't likely significant. Plus MDC generated is tied to caster level, upping costs and labor requirements. Things that make the tank resistant to counter tech attacks is a great idea, but I'm not aware of such a spell.

Versatility. The first thing that jumps to mind is swapping the engine out for a PPE power system. Source one had a system for that. It's spendy but maybe you can cut costs by doing the work in house. That eliminates the need to refuel and for your forces, takes the fuel truck off the battle field. Adding magic communication system would be ideal. It take ECM out of the picture for your side, while letting your forces run wild with it. The Iron Hammer already has it's own air-supply so you shouldn't be all out of love. And it's submersible so you're good there too, even if you don't paint it yellow. Adding to your weapon load out is a good idea, so think about stand alone shells for your tank that inflict magic spells and status effects. COA in a fireable tank round is a good one, some GMs don't allow it to effect vehicles, but it's great for screwing up infantry charges. Or retreats. The energy disruption spell for screwing up machines is a good idea. Cloud effect spells could be useful. And damage spells that effect the monsters who might have invulnerabilities to standard weapons.

There you go. A TSAW effort. Though magic still sucks for war.

[Subjugator]

If your sole goal is to reduce mortality then I'd go with the latest and toughest of tanks and add the following spells to them:

Defensive:
Armor of Ithan (or something better)
Invisibility
Camouflage
Shadow Meld
I don't remember the name of the spell, but the one that makes you silent

Offensive:
Magic Net
Carpet of Adhesion
Call lightning
Annihilate

Combination:
Time slip

I'd then staff each tank with people that have large amounts of PPE and one or more people that can use it to activate the spells on them.

If you only have a few tanks that won't be near each other on the battlefield and unlimited resources, you might want to make them have a gun that'll shoot anti-magic cloud, since it won't affect the tank itself and would hose any enemy spell casters.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

If your sole goal is to reduce mortality then I'd go with the latest and toughest of tanks and add the following spells to them:

Defensive:
Armor of Ithan (or something better)
Invisibility
Camouflage
Shadow Meld
I don't remember the name of the spell, but the one that makes you silent

Offensive:
Magic Net
Carpet of Adhesion
Call lightning
Annihilate

Combination:
Time slip

I'd then staff each tank with people that have large amounts of PPE and one or more people that can use it to activate the spells on them.

If you only have a few tanks that won't be near each other on the battlefield and unlimited resources, you might want to make them have a gun that'll shoot anti-magic cloud, since it won't affect the tank itself and would hose any enemy spell casters.

/Sub

I if I recall the improved form of invis also covers noise and trail.

[ShadowLogan]

I'd start with a pre-defined tank with the following spell functions using stored PPE "batteries":
-Animate & Control Dead (for crew reduction down to 1, might have to include necessary supporting spells, being TWdry you might not need actual dead but facsimiles will do, might also work to provide "drones")
-Mystic Portal on the main cannon to extend the range (at 10th Level you can get 1,000ft extra)
-Impervious to Energy (limits effective attacks)
-Armor Bizarre instead of Armor of Ithan (better protection per level, HF)
-mount Iron Wood planks for added protection ("cheap" disposable armor booster)
-Cloud of Smoke/Cloak of Darkness might not be bad either
-Multiple Image, distorts real strength when deployed potentially causing the enemy to retreat
-Combine Deflect (or better) with an Energy Field (roll to parry incoming attacks away harmlessly instead of taking damage)
-Eyes of the Wolf Optics
-Time Hole might also be useful to allow one to pop in/out

[Shark_Force]

quick reminder: you don't need spellcasters for your tank crew. iirc arzno has specially trained regular people, and failing that any psychic in the world can also use TW devices, and psychics are not particularly uncommon.

plus, as of RUE, if there is a source of energy, you don't even need special training or anything; you can build a device that can be used by anyone at all.

[Subjugator]

If your sole goal is to reduce mortality then I'd go with the latest and toughest of tanks and add the following spells to them:

Defensive:
Armor of Ithan (or something better)
Invisibility
Camouflage
Shadow Meld
I don't remember the name of the spell, but the one that makes you silent

Offensive:
Magic Net
Carpet of Adhesion
Call lightning
Annihilate

Combination:
Time slip

I'd then staff each tank with people that have large amounts of PPE and one or more people that can use it to activate the spells on them.

If you only have a few tanks that won't be near each other on the battlefield and unlimited resources, you might want to make them have a gun that'll shoot anti-magic cloud, since it won't affect the tank itself and would hose any enemy spell casters.

/Sub

I if I recall the improved form of invis also covers noise and trail.

But it stops on attack

[Shark_Force]

regular invisibility only works on people with no special optics or sensors, and no ability to see the invisible.

generally speaking, i'd rather have the option that works more reliably to get me to the place i need to be. there are other spells that provide excellent defensive options. invisibility i would want for sneaking around.

[Lenwen]

You are a magical kingdom that has many mages and TW in your arm forces how would you build your Armor (tanks) corp.
Would you build an all custom TW tank or modify line model tanks. What would be your goals with man power. What would be your focus for TW mods.

Custom TW tank:

A) - Contra Grav (max speed 250mph)

B) - Cosmic Force Field: (10th lvl) 2,500 mdc) 30 min, 3 times a day.
Double mdc on a ley line, Triple along a nexus.

C) - Teleportation: Teleportation greater (7th lvl) 2100 mile range. 3x per day.


Offensive spells (used against enemies)

A) - Multi use weapon system.

1)- 7 seconds (half a melee action) before the main weapon is fired, The enemy is hit with "Create Vacuum" (this instantly creates an area devoid of any/all atmosphere) This lasts for 20 melee's.

2)- 7 seconds later , (Half a melee action) the target that took the "Create Vacuum" attack is then struck by "Asteroid Strike (1d6x1,000 MD)

Then I'd keep them in unit's of 10, combined with a light infantry unit for defense purposes.

[nilgravity]

In my game Houstown has jeeps with Armor of Ithan and Meteor

[FatherMorpheus]

Quick thoughts. Depending on the kingdom's wealth and situation, starting from scratch would take a much larger and more expensive undertaking. TW modifying existing vehicles would be much cheaper, quicker and easier.

How I would go about it, start with a Iron Hammer Main Battle Tank (or Golden Age Weapon Smith to save money.)

Engine Electric (Us TW based recharging facility to recharge tanks when needed. Move this to a support vehicle which can do it in field if needed.)

TW Defensive Mods:
* Armor of Bizarre
* Impervious to Energy
* Invisibility: Superior
* Armor of Ithan (More armor good)

Iron Wood Ablative Armor plates add on mount units.
* These would be reactive armor segments which would be damage and then jettisoned.
* Quick mount points for pre-made units which could be quickly re-applied to tank to help supplement the overall damage capacity.
** If the Golden Age Weapon idea was used to save money, these would make the difference in combat.

TW Targeted Deflection Unit
* A unit mounted onto the tank with its PPE Battery. This unit (depending on design) would be an automated parry device which would give the tank a parry against incoming attacks. Perhaps have it designed to deflect only in-coming missiles. Details are open to need.

Mystic Portal Main Cannon Shells
* A selection of the main cannon shells would have a Mystic Portal modification which would allow them to 'mystic portal' through defensive shields and/or armor of opponents. These would modified HE style rounds to help juicify occupants of power armor, other tanks and robot armor.

Pilots and Crew
* All items would be powered of PPE Battery Sub-system which would take TW PPE Clips with mechanical/electrical interface systems. No valuable TWs or mages required to be on board, all of them would be busy build and repairing systems anyway. The crew would just quickly slit in another TW PPE Clip into the system if they run low on power.

Advanced Idea:

* Mend the Broken Automated Repair system: A Mend the Broken system which would make quick dirty field repairs, not designed to repair the whole vehicle but to get it up and running and off the battle field where it could be repaired fully.

* Flight System: TW Hover System which would allow the tank to float over mine fields or terrain the tracks can not normally handle.

* TW Weapon Systems (Any additional TW Weapon Systems)

* Protection Circle Systems: Allows tank to be protected against supernatural creatures to keep dangerous hand-to-hand attackers off of the tank.

* Lifeward Crew Protection System: Built in Lifeward for crew so they can escape the initial breaching attack on the tank, thus allowing them a chance to escape the vehicle.

* TW Optics package for driver (Standard Magical Detection Spells)

[taalismn]

I'm rather fond of Spinning Blades...mounting a few bayonets on the outside of your tank facing in various directions and using them as anti-personnel weapons for limpet-infantry or brush-cutters sounds like a fun idea...

[Subjugator]

You are a magical kingdom that has many mages and TW in your arm forces how would you build your Armor (tanks) corp.
Would you build an all custom TW tank or modify line model tanks. What would be your goals with man power. What would be your focus for TW mods.

Custom TW tank:

A) - Contra Grav (max speed 250mph)

B) - Cosmic Force Field: (10th lvl) 2,500 mdc) 30 min, 3 times a day.
Double mdc on a ley line, Triple along a nexus.

C) - Teleportation: Teleportation greater (7th lvl) 2100 mile range. 3x per day.


Offensive spells (used against enemies)

A) - Multi use weapon system.

1)- 7 seconds (half a melee action) before the main weapon is fired, The enemy is hit with "Create Vacuum" (this instantly creates an area devoid of any/all atmosphere) This lasts for 20 melee's.

2)- 7 seconds later , (Half a melee action) the target that took the "Create Vacuum" attack is then struck by "Asteroid Strike (1d6x1,000 MD)

Then I'd keep them in unit's of 10, combined with a light infantry unit for defense purposes.

Those in the vacuum would not have any negative effects from sonic booms or the like. I'd call this at least quasi-detrimental.

What's the book and page number for create vacuum and asteroid strike? I don't remember having seen them.

/Sub

[FatherMorpheus]

You are a magical kingdom that has many mages and TW in your arm forces how would you build your Armor (tanks) corp.
Would you build an all custom TW tank or modify line model tanks. What would be your goals with man power. What would be your focus for TW mods.

Custom TW tank:

A) - Contra Grav (max speed 250mph)

B) - Cosmic Force Field: (10th lvl) 2,500 mdc) 30 min, 3 times a day.
Double mdc on a ley line, Triple along a nexus.

C) - Teleportation: Teleportation greater (7th lvl) 2100 mile range. 3x per day.


Offensive spells (used against enemies)

A) - Multi use weapon system.

1)- 7 seconds (half a melee action) before the main weapon is fired, The enemy is hit with "Create Vacuum" (this instantly creates an area devoid of any/all atmosphere) This lasts for 20 melee's.

2)- 7 seconds later , (Half a melee action) the target that took the "Create Vacuum" attack is then struck by "Asteroid Strike (1d6x1,000 MD)

Then I'd keep them in unit's of 10, combined with a light infantry unit for defense purposes.

Those in the vacuum would not have any negative effects from sonic booms or the like. I'd call this at least quasi-detrimental.

What's the book and page number for create vacuum and asteroid strike? I don't remember having seen them.

/Sub

Most of these are Space Magic from Dimension Book 13 - Fleets of the Three Galaxies. Page 112 onward. I'll note many of the Space spells only work in the vacuum of space. So some of these may not work on Earth.

[Blue_Lion]

You are a magical kingdom that has many mages and TW in your arm forces how would you build your Armor (tanks) corp.
Would you build an all custom TW tank or modify line model tanks. What would be your goals with man power. What would be your focus for TW mods.

Custom TW tank:

A) - Contra Grav (max speed 250mph)

B) - Cosmic Force Field: (10th lvl) 2,500 mdc) 30 min, 3 times a day.
Double mdc on a ley line, Triple along a nexus.

C) - Teleportation: Teleportation greater (7th lvl) 2100 mile range. 3x per day.


Offensive spells (used against enemies)

A) - Multi use weapon system.

1)- 7 seconds (half a melee action) before the main weapon is fired, The enemy is hit with "Create Vacuum" (this instantly creates an area devoid of any/all atmosphere) This lasts for 20 melee's.

2)- 7 seconds later , (Half a melee action) the target that took the "Create Vacuum" attack is then struck by "Asteroid Strike (1d6x1,000 MD)

Then I'd keep them in unit's of 10, combined with a light infantry unit for defense purposes.

Those in the vacuum would not have any negative effects from sonic booms or the like. I'd call this at least quasi-detrimental.

What's the book and page number for create vacuum and asteroid strike? I don't remember having seen them.

/Sub

Most of these are Space Magic from Dimension Book 13 - Fleets of the Three Galaxies. Page 112 onward. I'll note many of the Space spells only work in the vacuum of space. So some of these may not work on Earth.

I assumed that in this case he was building a tank for Phase world. Looking at the two spells for the attack he is using the Crete vacuum to get the asteroid strike to work outside of the vacuum. This spell chain is to use an anti fleet spell to fight wars planets. I would as a GM Modify it because it as written a potential double kill to any one without EBA style protection. I would have the create vacuum spell create a vacuum around the meteor that is created in the gun that flies to the target. Then have the target hit by a second pressure wave of the air rushing back.

[The Artist Formerly]

Guys, look at how expensive these builds are. The PPE from crew(s) required to recharge some of these are staggering.

Ulti-maxes are a better choice.

[FatherMorpheus]

Most of these are Space Magic from Dimension Book 13 - Fleets of the Three Galaxies. Page 112 onward. I'll note many of the Space spells only work in the vacuum of space. So some of these may not work on Earth.

I assumed that in this case he was building a tank for Phase world. Looking at the two spells for the attack he is using the Crete vacuum to get the asteroid strike to work outside of the vacuum. This spell chain is to use an anti fleet spell to fight wars planets. I would as a GM Modify it because it as written a potential double kill to any one without EBA style protection. I would have the create vacuum spell create a vacuum around the meteor that is created in the gun that flies to the target. Then have the target hit by a second pressure wave of the air rushing back.

I like how you think... Surprise! Your dead!

[FatherMorpheus]

Guys, look at how expensive these builds are. The PPE from crew(s) required to recharge some of these are staggering.

Ulti-maxes are a better choice.

That is the trick, balancing TW items costs with what resources your community has on hand. If you have a lot of magic, but little tech then perhaps the cost of TW devices and PPE batteries for the crew(s) would be worth it.

[The Artist Formerly]

Guys, look at how expensive these builds are. The PPE from crew(s) required to recharge some of these are staggering.

Ulti-maxes are a better choice.

That is the trick, balancing TW items costs with what resources your community has on hand. If you have a lot of magic, but little tech then perhaps the cost of TW devices and PPE batteries for the crew(s) would be worth it.

Use the magic to improve your economy, use the money to buy Ulti-maxes. Value to cost, it the most efficient unit in any of the game books I own (everything through Free Quebec).

[Blue_Lion]

Guys, look at how expensive these builds are. The PPE from crew(s) required to recharge some of these are staggering.

Ulti-maxes are a better choice.

That is just your opion and not a fact.
If you look at the example I used the PPE cost would be paid to increase survival by the driver TW.

Lets take a look at my example build.
Tank 4-6 million TW enhancments lets say I whent crazy on the level and go with 1 million that gives me a tank with a top cost of 7 million. Crew 4, with weapons for 3 to serve as gunners. Damage for non missiles, main gun Varrible from 2d6X10 to 3d6X10, rate of fire 2, Coaxal gun (for when main gunner when he cant shoot the main gun) 1d4X10, Secondary gunner rail gun 1d6X10, Tank commander vulcan laser 3d4X10, Missiles 10 MRM

Now lets look at your ultra-max, cost 22 million weapons rail gun, and mini-missiles 30.

So damage to cost favorers the tank at 1/3 the cost of the Ultra-max.

Cost to MDC the tank has 650 with TW shields say 50 MDC for 10 PPE(or if 125 for 25 PPE for invincible armor) from the TW driver. The ultra-max has 400 main body 100 shields.

The ultra-max would be a unit for when you have more Money and time to spend per person while the tank is better for poorer kingdoms with more people to get in the fight. Training gunners is quicker than training PA pilots.

So clearly time and cost favor the Tank over your Ultra-max for the tank I proposed.

Heck I could spend another 4 million putting in PPE batteries and then the driver would not need to touch his PPE in most engagements and still come in at way less than your shiny suit of armor.

[eliakon]

Guys, look at how expensive these builds are. The PPE from crew(s) required to recharge some of these are staggering.

Ulti-maxes are a better choice.

That is the trick, balancing TW items costs with what resources your community has on hand. If you have a lot of magic, but little tech then perhaps the cost of TW devices and PPE batteries for the crew(s) would be worth it.

Use the magic to improve your economy, use the money to buy Ulti-maxes. Value to cost, it the most efficient unit in any of the game books I own (everything through Free Quebec).

Ulti-Maxes have a couple huge draw backs though...
They require techs trained on them (the FF system may or may not be 'alien or high tech -30%')
They are only available from Triax
Which means that if you don't have the techs, or the access to Triax (for them or the spare parts to maintain them) they are not a good choice.

[Killer Cyborg]

Guys, look at how expensive these builds are. The PPE from crew(s) required to recharge some of these are staggering.

Ulti-maxes are a better choice.

That is the trick, balancing TW items costs with what resources your community has on hand. If you have a lot of magic, but little tech then perhaps the cost of TW devices and PPE batteries for the crew(s) would be worth it.

Use the magic to improve your economy, use the money to buy Ulti-maxes. Value to cost, it the most efficient unit in any of the game books I own (everything through Free Quebec).

So... Your plan for building a magical tank corps is to NOT build one.

[The Artist Formerly]

Guys, look at how expensive these builds are. The PPE from crew(s) required to recharge some of these are staggering.

Ulti-maxes are a better choice.

That is the trick, balancing TW items costs with what resources your community has on hand. If you have a lot of magic, but little tech then perhaps the cost of TW devices and PPE batteries for the crew(s) would be worth it.

Use the magic to improve your economy, use the money to buy Ulti-maxes. Value to cost, it the most efficient unit in any of the game books I own (everything through Free Quebec).

So... Your plan for building a magical tank corps is to NOT build one.

Bingo!

[The Artist Formerly]

Guys, look at how expensive these builds are. The PPE from crew(s) required to recharge some of these are staggering.

Ulti-maxes are a better choice.

That is just your opion and not a fact.
If you look at the example I used the PPE cost would be paid to increase survival by the driver TW.

Lets take a look at my example build.
Tank 4-6 million TW enhancments lets say I whent crazy on the level and go with 1 million that gives me a tank with a top cost of 7 million. Crew 4, with weapons for 3 to serve as gunners. Damage for non missiles, main gun Varrible from 2d6X10 to 3d6X10, rate of fire 2, Coaxal gun (for when main gunner when he cant shoot the main gun) 1d4X10, Secondary gunner rail gun 1d6X10, Tank commander vulcan laser 3d4X10, Missiles 10 MRM

Now lets look at your ultra-max, cost 22 million weapons rail gun, and mini-missiles 30.

So damage to cost favorers the tank at 1/3 the cost of the Ultra-max.

Cost to MDC the tank has 650 with TW shields say 50 MDC for 10 PPE(or if 125 for 25 PPE for invincible armor) from the TW driver. The ultra-max has 400 main body 100 shields.

The ultra-max would be a unit for when you have more Money and time to spend per person while the tank is better for poorer kingdoms with more people to get in the fight. Training gunners is quicker than training PA pilots.

So clearly time and cost favor the Tank over your Ultra-max for the tank I proposed.

Heck I could spend another 4 million putting in PPE batteries and then the driver would not need to touch his PPE in most engagements and still come in at way less than your shiny suit of armor.

You're going to spend 6 mill for the tank, 85,000 for just the engine refit. Then to keep it running, you need a caster with call lightning and you've only got 1000 miles or one month, which ever comes first. Your armor upgrade spells are designed for people, not vehicles, so that might not even be rules legal, but what the hell. That's 250,000 for spell, 50 k per 10 MDC. And 50 MDC is crap for missile hits, the weapon most likely to be used to kill the tank. Iron Hammers only pack Medium missiles, which will work for shoot down duty, but will run dry way too soon for an extended fight.

Now the spendy part. You have a mage driving a tank. That is to say, you took one of the most expensive to training characters in the game system, and then sent him to tank school. And now you have him in the tank. Keeping him there will not be cheap, he has a extremely valuable skill set. Keeping him in that tank will be expensive. And that's for just one guy in one tank. A tank that can only be used as a weapon system.

So why have a magic tank at all? Why not put the TW wizard to work on some sort of Mystic generator system to provide cheap as free electricity to magic-town, and charge every house hold a moderate fee in taxes. Then use those taxes for Ulti-maxes.

Ulti-maxes are multi-use, they can be used in combat, fire suppression, construction, rescue efforts (damaged building), excavation, and police efforts. You can use them as intended, in the open, in a forest, mountainous train, urban combat(like walking sideways down alleys it's too broad to fit through or climbing/jumping on to buildings and going roof top to roof top), and underwater. With hands it's weapons can be somewhat customized for the mission and the need. Plus it comes with a forcefield you'd need 500,000 credits to equal that works with the flip of a switch, requiring no magic or magical training.

In mecha level war, which is any fight in which power armor or robots can make an appearance, mobility and versitility is the most important aspect of the deployment. Ulti-maxes benefit from Power armor training, have a dodge and strike bonus on top of that, and carry enough mini-missiles to stay in the fight. Titan combat robots do the same thing, but I don't think they are as pretty.

[Shark_Force]

you don't need a mage driving the tank.

psychics (ie 30% of the planet's human population) can operate many TW devices (including vehicles) just fine, with the effectiveness based on training (ie a psychic can use a TW TK-rifle, but only a psychic with the WP rifle skill will do a good job of it). as of RUE, any psychic can power and operate *any* TW device, whether it has a listed ISP cost or not.

but you don't even need a psychic. arzno has perfectly ordinary people who have essentially been given special training that allows them to use TW devices, iirc (somewhere does, at any rate, and i think the place is arzno... but maybe i've got the wrong place).

but you don't even need that. stormspire has the knowledge to make TW e-clips that can run various TW devices even for those without magical or psychic abilities. manoa (south american city) and the splugorth (see the powerlord and overlord armours for kydians) have been able to do so for quite some time as well. of course, those were proprietory technologies...

but as of RUE, any techno-wizard can make a device usable by anybody, so long as a power source is provided for them. such power devices can range from gems used as batteries, to TW devices that use energy sphere or talisman or similar, to ley lines, to a spell chain that draws life from the user to convert into PPE and power a device.

so really, no you don't need a mage to drive the tank. in fact, depending on the drive systems and such, you don't even need a mage to be the one to power the tank. once it's finished being constructed, you may never have to involve a mage in the tank's functioning ever again.

[Killer Cyborg]

you don't need a mage driving the tank.

psychics (ie 30% of the planet's human population) can operate many TW devices (including vehicles) just fine, with the effectiveness based on training (ie a psychic can use a TW TK-rifle, but only a psychic with the WP rifle skill will do a good job of it). as of RUE, any psychic can power and operate *any* TW device, whether it has a listed ISP cost or not.

but you don't even need a psychic. arzno has perfectly ordinary people who have essentially been given special training that allows them to use TW devices, iirc (somewhere does, at any rate, and i think the place is arzno... but maybe i've got the wrong place).

but you don't even need that. stormspire has the knowledge to make TW e-clips that can run various TW devices even for those without magical or psychic abilities. manoa (south american city) and the splugorth (see the powerlord and overlord armours for kydians) have been able to do so for quite some time as well. of course, those were proprietory technologies...

but as of RUE, any techno-wizard can make a device usable by anybody, so long as a power source is provided for them. such power devices can range from gems used as batteries, to TW devices that use energy sphere or talisman or similar, to ley lines, to a spell chain that draws life from the user to convert into PPE and power a device.

so really, no you don't need a mage to drive the tank. in fact, depending on the drive systems and such, you don't even need a mage to be the one to power the tank. once it's finished being constructed, you may never have to involve a mage in the tank's functioning ever again.

Agreed.

(Other than the Stormspire bit)

[Blue_Lion]

Guys, look at how expensive these builds are. The PPE from crew(s) required to recharge some of these are staggering.

Ulti-maxes are a better choice.

That is just your opion and not a fact.
If you look at the example I used the PPE cost would be paid to increase survival by the driver TW.

Lets take a look at my example build.
Tank 4-6 million TW enhancments lets say I whent crazy on the level and go with 1 million that gives me a tank with a top cost of 7 million. Crew 4, with weapons for 3 to serve as gunners. Damage for non missiles, main gun Varrible from 2d6X10 to 3d6X10, rate of fire 2, Coaxal gun (for when main gunner when he cant shoot the main gun) 1d4X10, Secondary gunner rail gun 1d6X10, Tank commander vulcan laser 3d4X10, Missiles 10 MRM

Now lets look at your ultra-max, cost 22 million weapons rail gun, and mini-missiles 30.

So damage to cost favorers the tank at 1/3 the cost of the Ultra-max.

Cost to MDC the tank has 650 with TW shields say 50 MDC for 10 PPE(or if 125 for 25 PPE for invincible armor) from the TW driver. The ultra-max has 400 main body 100 shields.

The ultra-max would be a unit for when you have more Money and time to spend per person while the tank is better for poorer kingdoms with more people to get in the fight. Training gunners is quicker than training PA pilots.

So clearly time and cost favor the Tank over your Ultra-max for the tank I proposed.

Heck I could spend another 4 million putting in PPE batteries and then the driver would not need to touch his PPE in most engagements and still come in at way less than your shiny suit of armor.

You're going to spend 6 mill for the tank, 85,000 for just the engine refit. Then to keep it running, you need a caster with call lightning and you've only got 1000 miles or one month, which ever comes first. Your armor upgrade spells are designed for people, not vehicles, so that might not even be rules legal, but what the hell. That's 250,000 for spell, 50 k per 10 MDC. And 50 MDC is crap for missile hits, the weapon most likely to be used to kill the tank. Iron Hammers only pack Medium missiles, which will work for shoot down duty, but will run dry way too soon for an extended fight.

Now the spendy part. You have a mage driving a tank. That is to say, you took one of the most expensive to training characters in the game system, and then sent him to tank school. And now you have him in the tank. Keeping him there will not be cheap, he has a extremely valuable skill set. Keeping him in that tank will be expensive. And that's for just one guy in one tank. A tank that can only be used as a weapon system.

So why have a magic tank at all? Why not put the TW wizard to work on some sort of Mystic generator system to provide cheap as free electricity to magic-town, and charge every house hold a moderate fee in taxes. Then use those taxes for Ulti-maxes.

Ulti-maxes are multi-use, they can be used in combat, fire suppression, construction, rescue efforts (damaged building), excavation, and police efforts. You can use them as intended, in the open, in a forest, mountainous train, urban combat(like walking sideways down alleys it's too broad to fit through or climbing/jumping on to buildings and going roof top to roof top), and underwater. With hands it's weapons can be somewhat customized for the mission and the need. Plus it comes with a forcefield you'd need 500,000 credits to equal that works with the flip of a switch, requiring no magic or magical training.

In mecha level war, which is any fight in which power armor or robots can make an appearance, mobility and versitility is the most important aspect of the deployment. Ulti-maxes benefit from Power armor training, have a dodge and strike bonus on top of that, and carry enough mini-missiles to stay in the fight. Titan combat robots do the same thing, but I don't think they are as pretty.

Points at the Rifts book of magic. The use of those spells on vehicles predates RUE, nothing in RUE prevents it. All the spells I used on the vehicle where standard from before RUE as the spell still only protects one target the tank it would be no different than say the spell on a dragon size wise (Also UWW ships use the spell to make shields with lots more MDC.). The engine retrofit never made it in to RUE right up so you are clearly selectively applying Pre-RUE stuff. Also I never listed the retro fit in my right up because it is debatable if it is RUE compatible do to it uses an outdated system of requiring the spell.

lets see shield with 100 mdc 300X10X4=12,000+30,000 so 42,000 for the shield. Invincible armor is 25 MDC per level plus bonuses. So adding that to the tank does not make so much more expensive than a suit of PA with 3 times the cost. Oh wait I can use that 100 MDC more than once in the same fight. So your shield defense has been proven mute.

Nothing you presented truly disproved that the tank is cheaper for the MDC it can do.
Tanks can operate as intended in a wide verity of terrain, they are off road vehicles, you can use tanks help in police and security/police operations rolls.

I am not saying the ultra-max is not good. I am saying for a small kingdom on a budget the tank is a cheaper combat choice able to give lower level of trained people the ability to fight. By using the tanks I would I can field 3 of them for the cost you spend on 1 Ultra-max. (you ultra-max would be unlikely to be able to beat 3 of those tanks by himself.)

PPE is a renewable resource that can be recovered threw a few different ways, including Ley Lines something a magical kingdom is never far from.

(note 30 mini-missiles in voiles of 6 are 5 shots. in voiles of 4 is 7 shots so they would run out fairly quick not something to keep you in the fight for the long haul but burst damage the long haul is the rail gun.)

[Blue_Lion]

you don't need a mage driving the tank.

psychics (ie 30% of the planet's human population) can operate many TW devices (including vehicles) just fine, with the effectiveness based on training (ie a psychic can use a TW TK-rifle, but only a psychic with the WP rifle skill will do a good job of it). as of RUE, any psychic can power and operate *any* TW device, whether it has a listed ISP cost or not.

but you don't even need a psychic. arzno has perfectly ordinary people who have essentially been given special training that allows them to use TW devices, iirc (somewhere does, at any rate, and i think the place is arzno... but maybe i've got the wrong place).

but you don't even need that. stormspire has the knowledge to make TW e-clips that can run various TW devices even for those without magical or psychic abilities. manoa (south american city) and the splugorth (see the powerlord and overlord armours for kydians) have been able to do so for quite some time as well. of course, those were proprietory technologies...

but as of RUE, any techno-wizard can make a device usable by anybody, so long as a power source is provided for them. such power devices can range from gems used as batteries, to TW devices that use energy sphere or talisman or similar, to ley lines, to a spell chain that draws life from the user to convert into PPE and power a device.

so really, no you don't need a mage to drive the tank. in fact, depending on the drive systems and such, you don't even need a mage to be the one to power the tank. once it's finished being constructed, you may never have to involve a mage in the tank's functioning ever again.

Agreed.

(Other than the Stormspire bit)

Don't need to but it is how I would build it. Each tank has a dedicated TW mechanic/driver. Teach him the spell mend the broken and when he falls back to a ley line under the invis superior spell and he can fix the tank up. Kind of how you would use TW in a magical army, one of 4 to 5 rolls. Weapons experts, engineers, tankers, pilots and some times RPA.

[Shark_Force]

you could use a TW as a driver, but it is likely there are far more useful places for someone who can cast spells than on the inside of a box that blocks the casting of the vast majority of said spells.

simple fact is, if you recruit some minor psychic with 22 ISP, mind block, and telepathy as crew (driver or gunner), you're taking someone who otherwise would have had a relatively small set of combat abilities and potentially expanding it by giving them a TW tank that can turn invisible, create force fields, etc.

you take a TW with potentially dozens of useful combat spells and make them crew, you take a lot of those options away until the TW gets out of the tank. unless the tank is open to the air, i suppose.

so i'd say it makes a heck of a lot more sense to grab some minor and major psychics which you probably have in your army anyways, and train them to be tank crews. or even to just take regular average people and put them through the specialized training to be able to use TW gear, and make them the tank crew (any psychics in the infantry can still help out with recharging the tanks if they don't use their powers regularly otherwise. think of it like investing in a mobile source of cover).

[Blue_Lion]

you could use a TW as a driver, but it is likely there are far more useful places for someone who can cast spells than on the inside of a box that blocks the casting of the vast majority of said spells.

simple fact is, if you recruit some minor psychic with 22 ISP, mind block, and telepathy as crew (driver or gunner), you're taking someone who otherwise would have had a relatively small set of combat abilities and potentially expanding it by giving them a TW tank that can turn invisible, create force fields, etc.

you take a TW with potentially dozens of useful combat spells and make them crew, you take a lot of those options away until the TW gets out of the tank. unless the tank is open to the air, i suppose.

so i'd say it makes a heck of a lot more sense to grab some minor and major psychics which you probably have in your army anyways, and train them to be tank crews. or even to just take regular average people and put them through the specialized training to be able to use TW gear, and make them the tank crew (any psychics in the infantry can still help out with recharging the tanks if they don't use their powers regularly otherwise. think of it like investing in a mobile source of cover).

If spell casting is needed then he can just open the hatch tankers often drivers outside of combat often have the hatch open closing it when risk of attack makes it a risk. But in armor combat the TW direct spell casting are not really a big game changer, how ever used as maintain the tank and support abilities it can very easily be. 22 ISP would not go far with out TW PPE batteries.

The reason I put the TW in the driver spot is so he can focus on keeping the tank alive. The other spots would be about sustaining damage output, something that spell casting is not as good at as technology based weapons. Remember another thing is the TW is dedicated to 1 tank and may modify the base over time adding in more spells. Secondary/direct casters would be in the Vehicle commanders hatch. You might thing this approach is limiting but it also has its strengths. It keeps your TW and tank alive longer.

Let me ask you this who is better at keeping a 7 million credit war machine alive and operational better than a dedicated TW?

[Killer Cyborg]

A Mulka.

[Blue_Lion]

A Mulka.

Please forgive my ignorance what is a Mulka?

[Subjugator]

Lol the most badass race in the megaverse. They're from the only licensed book ever produced for Rifts.

[Blue_Lion]

Lol the most badass race in the megaverse. They're from the only licensed book ever produced for Rifts.

Man hunter? then that is why I never herd of it.

[ShadowLogan]

@Blue_Lion
Actually you might not need a TW in the driver's spot. The TW could design the tank to allow magic to work unimpeded (Merc Ops has TW Body Armor produced out of regular EBA that doesn't impede spell casting, setting precedent), so any mage could fulfill the role.

@The Artist Formerly
Given that this is a community of Mages. They could produce Golems and equip them with necessary hardware to do all the roles the Ulti-Max (along w/side jobs you suggest) does so in a more cost effective manner. The Golem could form the core, with a TW version of a Servo-Harness (Warlords of Russia) worn by the Golem giving it access to additional armor (just by being present, extra plating, and even TW force fields), and capabilities (multiple mount points for weapons). A crew station could be part of the construction of the Golem (shaped to allow it) or the Harness itself could provide it.

Now the Ulti-Max does have the advantage in terms of short term MDC over a Golem (even the deluxe version w/iron&diamond heart) and its built in weapons. However that is what the TW Servo-Harness is for, to address those short comings and it can even potentially grant it greater capabilities.

[Subjugator]

you could use a TW as a driver, but it is likely there are far more useful places for someone who can cast spells than on the inside of a box that blocks the casting of the vast majority of said spells.

simple fact is, if you recruit some minor psychic with 22 ISP, mind block, and telepathy as crew (driver or gunner), you're taking someone who otherwise would have had a relatively small set of combat abilities and potentially expanding it by giving them a TW tank that can turn invisible, create force fields, etc.

you take a TW with potentially dozens of useful combat spells and make them crew, you take a lot of those options away until the TW gets out of the tank. unless the tank is open to the air, i suppose.

so i'd say it makes a heck of a lot more sense to grab some minor and major psychics which you probably have in your army anyways, and train them to be tank crews. or even to just take regular average people and put them through the specialized training to be able to use TW gear, and make them the tank crew (any psychics in the infantry can still help out with recharging the tanks if they don't use their powers regularly otherwise. think of it like investing in a mobile source of cover).

If spell casting is needed then he can just open the hatch tankers often drivers outside of combat often have the hatch open closing it when risk of attack makes it a risk. But in armor combat the TW direct spell casting are not really a big game changer, how ever used as maintain the tank and support abilities it can very easily be. 22 ISP would not go far with out TW PPE batteries.

The reason I put the TW in the driver spot is so he can focus on keeping the tank alive. The other spots would be about sustaining damage output, something that spell casting is not as good at as technology based weapons. Remember another thing is the TW is dedicated to 1 tank and may modify the base over time adding in more spells. Secondary/direct casters would be in the Vehicle commanders hatch. You might thing this approach is limiting but it also has its strengths. It keeps your TW and tank alive longer.

Let me ask you this who is better at keeping a 7 million credit war machine alive and operational better than a dedicated TW?

At 7M per, I wouldn't use tanks. I'd use battery powered PA suits and have a whole lot more guys per weapon. It's far more cost effective.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

@Blue_Lion
Actually you might not need a TW in the driver's spot. The TW could design the tank to allow magic to work unimpeded (Merc Ops has TW Body Armor produced out of regular EBA that doesn't impede spell casting, setting precedent), so any mage could fulfill the role.

@The Artist Formerly
Given that this is a community of Mages. They could produce Golems and equip them with necessary hardware to do all the roles the Ulti-Max (along w/side jobs you suggest) does so in a more cost effective manner. The Golem could form the core, with a TW version of a Servo-Harness (Warlords of Russia) worn by the Golem giving it access to additional armor (just by being present, extra plating, and even TW force fields), and capabilities (multiple mount points for weapons). A crew station could be part of the construction of the Golem (shaped to allow it) or the Harness itself could provide it.

Now the Ulti-Max does have the advantage in terms of short term MDC over a Golem (even the deluxe version w/iron&diamond heart) and its built in weapons. However that is what the TW Servo-Harness is for, to address those short comings and it can even potentially grant it greater capabilities.

1. Actually the precedence for that was in RUE.
2. It is not a mater of needing but giving the focus of a TW it is the type of roll they would be drawn to.
3. A mechanic with the tank that can magically repair it can allow it to fall back repair and return to the fight quicker.

(My personal feeling on TW is I dislike rules to reduce activation cost, time to build decreased by adding more gems, or allow every one to use them. To me those almost seam to be munchkin clauses so I do not use them when I play a TW.)

[Blue_Lion]

you could use a TW as a driver, but it is likely there are far more useful places for someone who can cast spells than on the inside of a box that blocks the casting of the vast majority of said spells.

simple fact is, if you recruit some minor psychic with 22 ISP, mind block, and telepathy as crew (driver or gunner), you're taking someone who otherwise would have had a relatively small set of combat abilities and potentially expanding it by giving them a TW tank that can turn invisible, create force fields, etc.

you take a TW with potentially dozens of useful combat spells and make them crew, you take a lot of those options away until the TW gets out of the tank. unless the tank is open to the air, i suppose.

so i'd say it makes a heck of a lot more sense to grab some minor and major psychics which you probably have in your army anyways, and train them to be tank crews. or even to just take regular average people and put them through the specialized training to be able to use TW gear, and make them the tank crew (any psychics in the infantry can still help out with recharging the tanks if they don't use their powers regularly otherwise. think of it like investing in a mobile source of cover).

If spell casting is needed then he can just open the hatch tankers often drivers outside of combat often have the hatch open closing it when risk of attack makes it a risk. But in armor combat the TW direct spell casting are not really a big game changer, how ever used as maintain the tank and support abilities it can very easily be. 22 ISP would not go far with out TW PPE batteries.

The reason I put the TW in the driver spot is so he can focus on keeping the tank alive. The other spots would be about sustaining damage output, something that spell casting is not as good at as technology based weapons. Remember another thing is the TW is dedicated to 1 tank and may modify the base over time adding in more spells. Secondary/direct casters would be in the Vehicle commanders hatch. You might thing this approach is limiting but it also has its strengths. It keeps your TW and tank alive longer.

Let me ask you this who is better at keeping a 7 million credit war machine alive and operational better than a dedicated TW?

At 7M per, I wouldn't use tanks. I'd use battery powered PA suits and have a whole lot more guys per weapon. It's far more cost effective.

/Sub

I am willing to bet the tank has more fire power, and armor that also includes a 1 million TW modification budget. The tank does not require as much training for the crew as PA.
The tank is more like a giant robot in than a PA in roll. But it is a matter of personal choice.

[Shark_Force]

mages don't grow on trees. if you're trying to build a magical tank corps, i interpreted that to mean you're going to need a lot of tanks, not just a handful of tanks, each with their own highly trained and specialized crew.

i mean, i have to say, the "less training for tanks" argument *really* falls down flat when you start talking about having a techno-wizard in each one (the type of magic-user that probably takes longest due to also needing to master complex mechanical and electrical skills - consider that mechanical and electrical engineering are pretty likely and both of those represent years of formal education, then add in specialized trade skills like vehicle armourer and such, then add in magic training which likewise is noted as being a very long process.

less training as a reason for tanks sounds a bit dubious when you're proposing that the drivers should all be spending likely at least a decade in training before they're allowed to drive the tank. it gets even less credible when you start talking about having one or more secondary magic users in the tank to provide spell support.

as to techno-wizards not being able to support as well outside of a tank as inside, i'm not sure i can agree with that. most of the spells you want *on* the tank should be built in as TW modifications.

in any event, tanks don't fight unsupported much these days. the name of the game is combined arms; tanks and (mechanized) infantry go hand in hand, and are almost never going to be going anywhere without air support and artillery. rifts may be a little light on conventional combat aircraft and artillery for some reason, but i wouldn't expect them to go completely without (sky kings or similar in the air, and some sort of missile launcher for artillery if not actual artillery of some form).

so the TW most likely will have plenty of targets that need protective magic or repairs, not just the tank, but also infantry (including their support vehicles). having enough techno-wizards to put one into every tank sounds great, but practically speaking calls for far too much training to see wide use, imo.

[Blue_Lion]

It was a that you you had a magical kingdom. So odds are you will have a few hundred to a couple tousand TW in the kingdom that would be willing to defend. Not that you training the TW but are using the TW in your kingdom. As only 1 mage is required per tank the rest can be what ever you have available. So the training at least would be to teach the TW pilot, the crew would need weapon systems. This is a more militia approach, but even training the crew in a basic military OCC would take less time than training RPA crew. Most mages who are in militaries the way the class system is became a mage and join to defend there home. Maybe trained in a few basic spells. In other words the mages join the army as mages, while military OCC are trained by militaries, with RPA Typically the more highly trained. (The secondary mage was only if there was mages available or wanted to have an armor slot. It was oh we have mages left.)

This was about a tank corps not the whole army, remember earlier what I said about there being 4-5 rolls in the military that TW would be used for. That was Weapons expert/armor, engineer, tanker, Pilot/air and possibly RPA. So I am discussing how to use the TW with ground mechanical skills. Non TW mages and TW weapon expert/armors would support Infantry, Air would be the air specialty TWs or pilot air support. Engineers would build defenses and city infrastructure and maintain general gear. RPA experts would enhance and maintain your PA and robots. (I would say that the TW engineers would be higher priority for many magical kingdoms but they would use there tw in other rolls.)

So not that I do not think about the rest of the army, but I was focusing on just one corps. a how to build an army for type X kingdom is to broad a subject to cover in one topic. If you look even the mighty CS has tanks and APCs, so why not a magical kingdom.