Minion War: Where are the angels?

[Zer0 Kay]

The CS are the angels coming over the hill fellas. Those winged shapes flying in at high speed? SuperSAMUS.

Humanity is stepping up to the plate and swinging for the fence.

CS would as readily call themselves angels as they would messengers of god... Oh wait their the same thing. CS would never accept or claim to be such.

Isn't the last book in the series now called "The Coalition States: Saviors Of Humanity" ?

Savior doesn't equal angel.

[Princedarkstorm]

Perhaps they are busy ? A Angelic Civil War ? Or watching the Gods ? And Gods might hop in the Minion War since the Infernal Lords are on their level ...

[Zer0 Kay]

Perhaps they are busy ? A Angelic Civil War ? Or watching the Gods ? And Gods might hop in the Minion War since the Infernal Lords are on their level ...

The odd thing here is if were talking Judeo Christian angels then they already had a war and the loosers are fallen angels led by the fallen Lucifer the lightbringer now called Satan.

since the PB angels aren't the Judeo Christian angels then who knows?

[Princedarkstorm]

Very true . However I have seen the Abrahamic Angels written up online

[SirRobin]

In a universe with so many dimensions I have a hard time buying that the only real foil to demon and devil ambitions is each other. We know there are forces of "good" about. If "bad," splugorth, vampires, devils, demons, etc... have their own dimensions and have lasted this long then "good" should have a couple too. Maybe they don't normally get involved in the affairs of lesser beings because they are guarding the old ones, look down on "lesser beings," or have adopted a more monk/isolationist ideology.

If summoning/slaving was easy enough most of the universe would likely have been shackled by the devil demon showdown. Just as I have a hard time believing that supposedly strategically critical real estate like Earth would be left to "lesser beings" by higher beings. I doubt the demons and devils are the only ones who can see the stakes here. Would they really leave it to lesser beings and just hope the two bad guys wear each other out?

[guardiandashi]

In a universe with so many dimensions I have a hard time buying that the only real foil to demon and devil ambitions is each other. We know there are forces of "good" about. If "bad," splugorth, vampires, devils, demons, etc... have their own dimensions and have lasted this long then "good" should have a couple too. Maybe they don't normally get involved in the affairs of lesser beings because they are guarding the old ones, look down on "lesser beings," or have adopted a more monk/isolationist ideology.

If summoning/slaving was easy enough most of the universe would likely have been shackled by the devil demon showdown. Just as I have a hard time believing that supposedly strategically critical real estate like Earth would be left to "lesser beings" by higher beings. I doubt the demons and devils are the only ones who can see the stakes here. Would they really leave it to lesser beings and just hope the two bad guys wear each other out?

personally I tend to agree with this.

now a few things that also may make sense (in a sad way)
1 the "good" forces are still abiding by the terms and letter (intent) of the truces between good and evil (wheras evil tends to violate them)
2 they are "distracted" with other things and weren't paying attention
3 they have a slow response time in general, its not that they aren't going to respond, but they are busy getting ready; preparing and updating weaponry, training, polishing armor etc.
4 they haven't gotten their "marching orders" from their commanders "higher powers"
5 additional variations along this line.

[Nightmask]

In a universe with so many dimensions I have a hard time buying that the only real foil to demon and devil ambitions is each other. We know there are forces of "good" about. If "bad," splugorth, vampires, devils, demons, etc... have their own dimensions and have lasted this long then "good" should have a couple too. Maybe they don't normally get involved in the affairs of lesser beings because they are guarding the old ones, look down on "lesser beings," or have adopted a more monk/isolationist ideology.

If summoning/slaving was easy enough most of the universe would likely have been shackled by the devil demon showdown. Just as I have a hard time believing that supposedly strategically critical real estate like Earth would be left to "lesser beings" by higher beings. I doubt the demons and devils are the only ones who can see the stakes here. Would they really leave it to lesser beings and just hope the two bad guys wear each other out?

personally I tend to agree with this.

now a few things that also may make sense (in a sad way)
1 the "good" forces are still abiding by the terms and letter (intent) of the truces between good and evil (wheras evil tends to violate them)
2 they are "distracted" with other things and weren't paying attention
3 they have a slow response time in general, its not that they aren't going to respond, but they are busy getting ready; preparing and updating weaponry, training, polishing armor etc.
4 they haven't gotten their "marching orders" from their commanders "higher powers"
5 additional variations along this line.

I generally have issues with the first on the list, since if the other side is demonstrably ignoring the terms of a truce then there's little reason to keep following them yourself since the only point of the truce in the first place was to bind both sides to restrictions meant to prevent a return to open war. If one side's clearly ignoring the rules giving them an advantage as a result then remaining hindered is simply not reasonable. It also requires as an assumption that somehow 'good' isn't good unless it continues to abide by a bargain that the other side isn't, good isn't stupid and if the other side isn't abiding by the terms then you've no truce and no reason to abide by a piece of paper that's already been breached.

It makes me think of the Federation and its abiding by those anti-Cloaking Device rules with the Romulans. The Romulans are shown breaking the treaty repeatedly since hey cloaking device great way to do things and not get caught, other races have them beyond the Romulans, and certainly by the time of the Dominion War they were a proven balancer that would have saved tens of thousands if not millions of lives if Star Fleet had been equipping all its ships with them instead of just one.

[SolCannibal]

In a universe with so many dimensions I have a hard time buying that the only real foil to demon and devil ambitions is each other. We know there are forces of "good" about. If "bad," splugorth, vampires, devils, demons, etc... have their own dimensions and have lasted this long then "good" should have a couple too. Maybe they don't normally get involved in the affairs of lesser beings because they are guarding the old ones, look down on "lesser beings," or have adopted a more monk/isolationist ideology.

If summoning/slaving was easy enough most of the universe would likely have been shackled by the devil demon showdown. Just as I have a hard time believing that supposedly strategically critical real estate like Earth would be left to "lesser beings" by higher beings. I doubt the demons and devils are the only ones who can see the stakes here. Would they really leave it to lesser beings and just hope the two bad guys wear each other out?

personally I tend to agree with this.

now a few things that also may make sense (in a sad way)
1 the "good" forces are still abiding by the terms and letter (intent) of the truces between good and evil (wheras evil tends to violate them)
2 they are "distracted" with other things and weren't paying attention
3 they have a slow response time in general, its not that they aren't going to respond, but they are busy getting ready; preparing and updating weaponry, training, polishing armor etc.
4 they haven't gotten their "marching orders" from their commanders "higher powers"
5 additional variations along this line.

I generally have issues with the first on the list, since if the other side is demonstrably ignoring the terms of a truce then there's little reason to keep following them yourself since the only point of the truce in the first place was to bind both sides to restrictions meant to prevent a return to open war. If one side's clearly ignoring the rules giving them an advantage as a result then remaining hindered is simply not reasonable. It also requires as an assumption that somehow 'good' isn't good unless it continues to abide by a bargain that the other side isn't, good isn't stupid and if the other side isn't abiding by the terms then you've no truce and no reason to abide by a piece of paper that's already been breached.

It makes me think of the Federation and its abiding by those anti-Cloaking Device rules with the Romulans. The Romulans are shown breaking the treaty repeatedly since hey cloaking device great way to do things and not get caught, other races have them beyond the Romulans, and certainly by the time of the Dominion War they were a proven balancer that would have saved tens of thousands if not millions of lives if Star Fleet had been equipping all its ships with them instead of just one.

I see what you mean, though considering the balance of power mostly stays overall, it would be interesting to see some ST episode one day adress why, while certainly valuable, cloaking devices ain't the watershed/conflict-turning tech they could theoretically be.

[guardiandashi]

I generally have issues with the first on the list, since if the other side is demonstrably ignoring the terms of a truce then there's little reason to keep following them yourself since the only point of the truce in the first place was to bind both sides to restrictions meant to prevent a return to open war. If one side's clearly ignoring the rules giving them an advantage as a result then remaining hindered is simply not reasonable. It also requires as an assumption that somehow 'good' isn't good unless it continues to abide by a bargain that the other side isn't, good isn't stupid and if the other side isn't abiding by the terms then you've no truce and no reason to abide by a piece of paper that's already been breached.

It makes me think of the Federation and its abiding by those anti-Cloaking Device rules with the Romulans. The Romulans are shown breaking the treaty repeatedly since hey cloaking device great way to do things and not get caught, other races have them beyond the Romulans, and certainly by the time of the Dominion War they were a proven balancer that would have saved tens of thousands if not millions of lives if Star Fleet had been equipping all its ships with them instead of just one.

now I may be confused and misremembering/misunderstanding the "deal" with the federation/romulan empire treaty, but my understanding was in universe it was more along the lines of: If the federation refrains from developing and using cloaking tech, (research into cloak counters was ok) then the romulan empire will do and refrain from doing these other things the federation was wanting them to not do. so it wasn't actually a violation of the treaty for the romulans to develop and use cloaking devices, but things like the federation "phase cloak" from that next gen episode was a serious breach of the treaty on the federation side.

in regards to the "good vs evil" treaty violations I agree that good doesn't have to be lawful stupid, but a lot of the time they seem to border on it in regards to treaties and the like, because they hold themselves to a higher standard, and don't violate the treaty, in addition they typically will not declare a treaty null and void unless they have serious PROOF that the "evil" side is in violation.

"Evil" on the other hand is usually depicted as constantly testing the limits of a treaty both through technical "inadvertent" violations and minor and major deliberate violations "to see what they can get away with."

[Nightmask]

I generally have issues with the first on the list, since if the other side is demonstrably ignoring the terms of a truce then there's little reason to keep following them yourself since the only point of the truce in the first place was to bind both sides to restrictions meant to prevent a return to open war. If one side's clearly ignoring the rules giving them an advantage as a result then remaining hindered is simply not reasonable. It also requires as an assumption that somehow 'good' isn't good unless it continues to abide by a bargain that the other side isn't, good isn't stupid and if the other side isn't abiding by the terms then you've no truce and no reason to abide by a piece of paper that's already been breached.

It makes me think of the Federation and its abiding by those anti-Cloaking Device rules with the Romulans. The Romulans are shown breaking the treaty repeatedly since hey cloaking device great way to do things and not get caught, other races have them beyond the Romulans, and certainly by the time of the Dominion War they were a proven balancer that would have saved tens of thousands if not millions of lives if Star Fleet had been equipping all its ships with them instead of just one.

now I may be confused and misremembering/misunderstanding the "deal" with the federation/romulan empire treaty, but my understanding was in universe it was more along the lines of: If the federation refrains from developing and using cloaking tech, (research into cloak counters was ok) then the romulan empire will do and refrain from doing these other things the federation was wanting them to not do. so it wasn't actually a violation of the treaty for the romulans to develop and use cloaking devices, but things like the federation "phase cloak" from that next gen episode was a serious breach of the treaty on the federation side.

I think you misread my post slightly, I didn't say the treaty banned the Romulans from developing cloaking technology but that they were using it to violate treaty restrictions because 'if you can't see me then I didn't do it', such as that episode where Data ends up commanding a ship with a very poor second in command. The Romulans planned on violating the treaty using their cloaking technology to slip across the border and help a Klingon ally, only Data's outwitting them caught them when they thought they were going to get away with it and caused them to turn back. Without that foreknowledge and Data's follow-up to make the detection grid actually succeed they'd have easily gotten away with violating the treaty.

in regards to the "good vs evil" treaty violations I agree that good doesn't have to be lawful stupid, but a lot of the time they seem to border on it in regards to treaties and the like, because they hold themselves to a higher standard, and don't violate the treaty, in addition they typically will not declare a treaty null and void unless they have serious PROOF that the "evil" side is in violation.

"Evil" on the other hand is usually depicted as constantly testing the limits of a treaty both through technical "inadvertent" violations and minor and major deliberate violations "to see what they can get away with."

Which is why I have issue with Good letting Evil get away with so much 'testing', if you aren't ensuring they abide by things and enforcing the rules to protect against Evil's plans you're failing at being Good.

[Nightmask]

In a universe with so many dimensions I have a hard time buying that the only real foil to demon and devil ambitions is each other. We know there are forces of "good" about. If "bad," splugorth, vampires, devils, demons, etc... have their own dimensions and have lasted this long then "good" should have a couple too. Maybe they don't normally get involved in the affairs of lesser beings because they are guarding the old ones, look down on "lesser beings," or have adopted a more monk/isolationist ideology.

If summoning/slaving was easy enough most of the universe would likely have been shackled by the devil demon showdown. Just as I have a hard time believing that supposedly strategically critical real estate like Earth would be left to "lesser beings" by higher beings. I doubt the demons and devils are the only ones who can see the stakes here. Would they really leave it to lesser beings and just hope the two bad guys wear each other out?

personally I tend to agree with this.

now a few things that also may make sense (in a sad way)
1 the "good" forces are still abiding by the terms and letter (intent) of the truces between good and evil (wheras evil tends to violate them)
2 they are "distracted" with other things and weren't paying attention
3 they have a slow response time in general, its not that they aren't going to respond, but they are busy getting ready; preparing and updating weaponry, training, polishing armor etc.
4 they haven't gotten their "marching orders" from their commanders "higher powers"
5 additional variations along this line.

I generally have issues with the first on the list, since if the other side is demonstrably ignoring the terms of a truce then there's little reason to keep following them yourself since the only point of the truce in the first place was to bind both sides to restrictions meant to prevent a return to open war. If one side's clearly ignoring the rules giving them an advantage as a result then remaining hindered is simply not reasonable. It also requires as an assumption that somehow 'good' isn't good unless it continues to abide by a bargain that the other side isn't, good isn't stupid and if the other side isn't abiding by the terms then you've no truce and no reason to abide by a piece of paper that's already been breached.

It makes me think of the Federation and its abiding by those anti-Cloaking Device rules with the Romulans. The Romulans are shown breaking the treaty repeatedly since hey cloaking device great way to do things and not get caught, other races have them beyond the Romulans, and certainly by the time of the Dominion War they were a proven balancer that would have saved tens of thousands if not millions of lives if Star Fleet had been equipping all its ships with them instead of just one.

I see what you mean, though considering the balance of power mostly stays overall, it would be interesting to see some ST episode one day adress why, while certainly valuable, cloaking devices ain't the watershed/conflict-turning tech they could theoretically be.

It's conflict-turning tech when your opponent lacks the means of seeing through it or indirectly over-coming it (such as Kirk's brilliant planning in the original series in the episode that introduces the Romulans). The Dominion for example until they had time to study the tech had no means of seeing through it which is why Starfleet bargained with the Romulans for a cloaking device they could install on the Defiant, they only managed to survive and turn things around on the joint Romulan/Cardassian cloaked attack fleet by having a mole that let them know about the upcoming attack. Same goes with those major conflicts during the Dominion War, the Federation side would have suffered far fewer losses because the enemy in general couldn't detect them and at least would have had to work to hit anyone they could eventually detect instead of it being a curb-stomp slaughter.

[SolCannibal]

In a universe with so many dimensions I have a hard time buying that the only real foil to demon and devil ambitions is each other. We know there are forces of "good" about. If "bad," splugorth, vampires, devils, demons, etc... have their own dimensions and have lasted this long then "good" should have a couple too. Maybe they don't normally get involved in the affairs of lesser beings because they are guarding the old ones, look down on "lesser beings," or have adopted a more monk/isolationist ideology.

If summoning/slaving was easy enough most of the universe would likely have been shackled by the devil demon showdown. Just as I have a hard time believing that supposedly strategically critical real estate like Earth would be left to "lesser beings" by higher beings. I doubt the demons and devils are the only ones who can see the stakes here. Would they really leave it to lesser beings and just hope the two bad guys wear each other out?

personally I tend to agree with this.

now a few things that also may make sense (in a sad way)
1 the "good" forces are still abiding by the terms and letter (intent) of the truces between good and evil (wheras evil tends to violate them)
2 they are "distracted" with other things and weren't paying attention
3 they have a slow response time in general, its not that they aren't going to respond, but they are busy getting ready; preparing and updating weaponry, training, polishing armor etc.
4 they haven't gotten their "marching orders" from their commanders "higher powers"
5 additional variations along this line.

I generally have issues with the first on the list, since if the other side is demonstrably ignoring the terms of a truce then there's little reason to keep following them yourself since the only point of the truce in the first place was to bind both sides to restrictions meant to prevent a return to open war. If one side's clearly ignoring the rules giving them an advantage as a result then remaining hindered is simply not reasonable. It also requires as an assumption that somehow 'good' isn't good unless it continues to abide by a bargain that the other side isn't, good isn't stupid and if the other side isn't abiding by the terms then you've no truce and no reason to abide by a piece of paper that's already been breached.

It makes me think of the Federation and its abiding by those anti-Cloaking Device rules with the Romulans. The Romulans are shown breaking the treaty repeatedly since hey cloaking device great way to do things and not get caught, other races have them beyond the Romulans, and certainly by the time of the Dominion War they were a proven balancer that would have saved tens of thousands if not millions of lives if Star Fleet had been equipping all its ships with them instead of just one.

I see what you mean, though considering the balance of power mostly stays overall, it would be interesting to see some ST episode one day adress why, while certainly valuable, cloaking devices ain't the watershed/conflict-turning tech they could theoretically be.

It's conflict-turning tech when your opponent lacks the means of seeing through it or indirectly over-coming it (such as Kirk's brilliant planning in the original series in the episode that introduces the Romulans). The Dominion for example until they had time to study the tech had no means of seeing through it which is why Starfleet bargained with the Romulans for a cloaking device they could install on the Defiant, they only managed to survive and turn things around on the joint Romulan/Cardassian cloaked attack fleet by having a mole that let them know about the upcoming attack. Same goes with those major conflicts during the Dominion War, the Federation side would have suffered far fewer losses because the enemy in general couldn't detect them and at least would have had to work to hit anyone they could eventually detect instead of it being a curb-stomp slaughter.

And yet the romulans never tried a blitz-run on the Federation beside this edge, what is at least curious considering they supposedly were expansionist...
Just to make myself clear, nothing against your example, just ranting on that kind of details that fit weirdly - and that trying to make sense of it all can sometimes generate interesting subplots.

[eliakon]

Real World Example....
Ukraine. Russia has invaded parts of Ukraine, and is supporting forces that are fighting the Ukraine government....Russia's foes though are not sending in THEIR troops to fight the Russian troops. They COULD....but they don't want to start WWIII.
Instead NATO is sending supplies and advisors. They are engaging in political war fare at the international level. There are sanctions, and proclamations and a whole host of things......All of which don't mean that NATO "isn't doing anything" just because they are not sending in a few divisions of mechanized infantry.
Just like the Angels could (and likely ARE) doing all sorts of things behind the scenes (once they realize what is going on...remember most of this was a huge surprise to everyone) on the bigger metaphysical stage. While the troops on the ground in some battle field may not understand that there isn't a host of angels flying air cover for them...because those angels are off having diplomatic discussions with a hundred deities in several dozen pantheons about how it is time that we need to rescale the message being sent down the various churches so that we can have a unified shift in Witch Hunter quest activity from unaligned demons to Hades Demons by 3% over the next decade cycle.

[SirRobin]

Real World Example....
Ukraine. Russia has invaded parts of Ukraine, and is supporting forces that are fighting the Ukraine government....Russia's foes though are not sending in THEIR troops to fight the Russian troops. They COULD....but they don't want to start WWIII.
Instead NATO is sending supplies and advisors. They are engaging in political war fare at the international level. There are sanctions, and proclamations and a whole host of things......All of which don't mean that NATO "isn't doing anything" just because they are not sending in a few divisions of mechanized infantry.
Just like the Angels could (and likely ARE) doing all sorts of things behind the scenes (once they realize what is going on...remember most of this was a huge surprise to everyone) on the bigger metaphysical stage. While the troops on the ground in some battle field may not understand that there isn't a host of angels flying air cover for them...because those angels are off having diplomatic discussions with a hundred deities in several dozen pantheons about how it is time that we need to rescale the message being sent down the various churches so that we can have a unified shift in Witch Hunter quest activity from unaligned demons to Hades Demons by 3% over the next decade cycle.

I don't think that fits very well. It might fit if the demons and devils were only invading the three galaxies. But they aren't. This war supposedly crosses many dimensions. It would be like Western Europe choosing not to get involved as Russia and China go to war with each other while simultaneously invading and fighting over Africa, South America, the Middle East, etc, etc... Western Europe is counting on South Africa and Brazil to keep Africa and South America free. With only covert/diplomatic aid from Western Europe. Even if neither Russia or China decisively win, the amount of territory they could conquer will vastly expand their resource base and economically/militarily/politically lock Western Europe out of those regions.

Continuing the analogy Rifts Earth would be the Panama Canal. A strategically valuable spot. Except this canal reaches every ocean plus quite a few rivers and lakes. But Western Europe is counting on the Panamanian Defense Force to keep it free?

The demons and devils are going to war across many dimensions. Leaving it up to the locals, so to speak, seems insane. The portals they build essentially bring hell on earth to wherever they are built. Basically creating a colony. We can look at our own colonial era to see how successfully the locals resistance fared. And that's without a panama canal that reaches every ocean up for grabs.

Yes Western Europe might be caught off guard by the sudden global war but I can't imagine they could stay out of it for long. There is simply too much at stake to leave it all to the locals. Especially for strategically critical resources like Rifts Earth. It would be madness to leave it up to the Panamanian Defense Force. But that seems to be what is happening.

And that doesn't really make sense to me.

[eliakon]

Real World Example....
Ukraine. Russia has invaded parts of Ukraine, and is supporting forces that are fighting the Ukraine government....Russia's foes though are not sending in THEIR troops to fight the Russian troops. They COULD....but they don't want to start WWIII.
Instead NATO is sending supplies and advisors. They are engaging in political war fare at the international level. There are sanctions, and proclamations and a whole host of things......All of which don't mean that NATO "isn't doing anything" just because they are not sending in a few divisions of mechanized infantry.
Just like the Angels could (and likely ARE) doing all sorts of things behind the scenes (once they realize what is going on...remember most of this was a huge surprise to everyone) on the bigger metaphysical stage. While the troops on the ground in some battle field may not understand that there isn't a host of angels flying air cover for them...because those angels are off having diplomatic discussions with a hundred deities in several dozen pantheons about how it is time that we need to rescale the message being sent down the various churches so that we can have a unified shift in Witch Hunter quest activity from unaligned demons to Hades Demons by 3% over the next decade cycle.

I don't think that fits very well. It might fit if the demons and devils were only invading the three galaxies. But they aren't. This war supposedly crosses many dimensions. It would be like Western Europe choosing not to get involved as Russia and China go to war with each other while simultaneously invading and fighting over Africa, South America, the Middle East, etc, etc... Western Europe is counting on South Africa and Brazil to keep Africa and South America free. With only covert/diplomatic aid from Western Europe. Even if neither Russia or China decisively win, the amount of territory they could conquer will vastly expand their resource base and economically/militarily/politically lock Western Europe out of those regions.

Continuing the analogy Rifts Earth would be the Panama Canal. A strategically valuable spot. Except this canal reaches every ocean plus quite a few rivers and lakes. But Western Europe is counting on the Panamanian Defense Force to keep it free?

The demons and devils are going to war across many dimensions. Leaving it up to the locals, so to speak, seems insane. The portals they build essentially bring hell on earth to wherever they are built. Basically creating a colony. We can look at our own colonial era to see how successfully the locals resistance fared. And that's without a panama canal that reaches every ocean up for grabs.

Yes Western Europe might be caught off guard by the sudden global war but I can't imagine they could stay out of it for long. There is simply too much at stake to leave it all to the locals. Especially for strategically critical resources like Rifts Earth. It would be madness to leave it up to the Panamanian Defense Force. But that seems to be what is happening.

And that doesn't really make sense to me.

That's why I gave my example of what the angels are doing.
Instead of rushing off to be foot soldiers....they are off doing other things.
If they are coordinating trying to get an alliance of people to work together to face the threat....well that takes time.
If they are working to take advantage of the openings presented on OTHER fronts...well then they can't be in two places at once

And that completely ignores the fact that the Demons and Dyvalians are (in classic evil fashion) totally over reaching them selves and trying to take far more than they can possibly hope to ever conquer, let alone hold. Why rush in to fight a battle that is pretty much pre-ordained to be won (there is almost no way for the hell pits to come on line as written) when you can instead take the advantage of their weakness in OTHER places.
An example. Rurga is battling in Arensigli against a foe who may be the deevil lord Nickodeamus. If it is Nickodeamus then he will either have to draw down forces in Arensigli to support the other operations, or he will have to leave Arensigli up..drawing forces away from the other minion war fronts. So the Angels may have sent forces to Arensigli to help out Rurga. Thus they either will purge that world of its darkness (yay good guys) or they will keep the status quo....by siphoning forces from deevil operations else where (there are a finite number of deevils, so to get more for Arensigli they have to come from someplace.)

The fallacy is assuming that the only battlefields in the war of light and darkness are the ones that are described in the Minion War. There are more places than just Rifts Earth in the megaverse. And while it is of great importance to the people that live there, it is not the center of the megaverse....it is not an example of "so goes Rifts Earth, so goes the Megaverse." So why does everyone assume that the angels will drop everything to deal with a war between two demon factions (note that there are explicitly more demon forces than just these two) when there are so many OTHER fish to fry, AND the demons and deevils are leaving themselves wide open on other fronts?

[SirRobin]

That's why I gave my example of what the angels are doing.
Instead of rushing off to be foot soldiers....they are off doing other things.
If they are coordinating trying to get an alliance of people to work together to face the threat....well that takes time.
If they are working to take advantage of the openings presented on OTHER fronts...well then they can't be in two places at once

And that completely ignores the fact that the Demons and Dyvalians are (in classic evil fashion) totally over reaching them selves and trying to take far more than they can possibly hope to ever conquer, let alone hold. Why rush in to fight a battle that is pretty much pre-ordained to be won (there is almost no way for the hell pits to come on line as written) when you can instead take the advantage of their weakness in OTHER places.
An example. Rurga is battling in Arensigli against a foe who may be the deevil lord Nickodeamus. If it is Nickodeamus then he will either have to draw down forces in Arensigli to support the other operations, or he will have to leave Arensigli up..drawing forces away from the other minion war fronts. So the Angels may have sent forces to Arensigli to help out Rurga. Thus they either will purge that world of its darkness (yay good guys) or they will keep the status quo....by siphoning forces from deevil operations else where (there are a finite number of deevils, so to get more for Arensigli they have to come from someplace.)

The fallacy is assuming that the only battlefields in the war of light and darkness are the ones that are described in the Minion War. There are more places than just Rifts Earth in the megaverse. And while it is of great importance to the people that live there, it is not the center of the megaverse....it is not an example of "so goes Rifts Earth, so goes the Megaverse." So why does everyone assume that the angels will drop everything to deal with a war between two demon factions (note that there are explicitly more demon forces than just these two) when there are so many OTHER fish to fry, AND the demons and deevils are leaving themselves wide open on other fronts?

I see what you are trying to say but I think you are missing several points. I do bring up that quite a few dimensions, possibly all of them, are involved. Its not just the three galaxies, which would fit your Ukraine comparison better. Its quite possibly the entire multiverse. The Earth just happens to be one of the most strategic locations in it.

I do see the demons and devils as over reaching too but don't forget that they have a literally inexhaustible supply of troops. They die, are reborn in hell, and go rampaging again. They can also draw on the resources of the territories they have conquered. Which grows as they take more. Leaving a place as strategically valuable as Rifts Earth to the local defense forces seems an unnecessary and even foolish risk.

Your Arensigli example implies a resource limit which I do not recall the material supporting. They have actual demon "planets" wandering around the Three Galaxies. Each side also has several units assigned to conquering Earth, as well as significant local assets to draw on. If their operations in other dimensions are anywhere near as well supplied then the entire multiverse could become collateral damage.

Not to mention that their rebirthing ability means that they can concentrate their forces when and where they choose to achieve local superiority. They'll never actually run out of troops. Internal political dynamics may hinder their ability to concentrate but as with the developing arms race they will tactically and strategically adjust.

Nor do I see the portals as being impossibilities. Yes their completion could potentially signal "game over" but the material for the Minion War does seem to be about raising the stakes higher than ever before. Which again begs the question of why angelic style dimensions are restricting themselves to political and covert operations when so much is on the line.

[Warmaster40k]

The best bet for the Angels or any forces of light, would be to while the demons and deevils are fighting their war would be to invade one of the Hells and strike down the creatures as they respawn. There by removing many for a long time.

[eliakon]

That's why I gave my example of what the angels are doing.
Instead of rushing off to be foot soldiers....they are off doing other things.
If they are coordinating trying to get an alliance of people to work together to face the threat....well that takes time.
If they are working to take advantage of the openings presented on OTHER fronts...well then they can't be in two places at once

And that completely ignores the fact that the Demons and Dyvalians are (in classic evil fashion) totally over reaching them selves and trying to take far more than they can possibly hope to ever conquer, let alone hold. Why rush in to fight a battle that is pretty much pre-ordained to be won (there is almost no way for the hell pits to come on line as written) when you can instead take the advantage of their weakness in OTHER places.
An example. Rurga is battling in Arensigli against a foe who may be the deevil lord Nickodeamus. If it is Nickodeamus then he will either have to draw down forces in Arensigli to support the other operations, or he will have to leave Arensigli up..drawing forces away from the other minion war fronts. So the Angels may have sent forces to Arensigli to help out Rurga. Thus they either will purge that world of its darkness (yay good guys) or they will keep the status quo....by siphoning forces from deevil operations else where (there are a finite number of deevils, so to get more for Arensigli they have to come from someplace.)

The fallacy is assuming that the only battlefields in the war of light and darkness are the ones that are described in the Minion War. There are more places than just Rifts Earth in the megaverse. And while it is of great importance to the people that live there, it is not the center of the megaverse....it is not an example of "so goes Rifts Earth, so goes the Megaverse." So why does everyone assume that the angels will drop everything to deal with a war between two demon factions (note that there are explicitly more demon forces than just these two) when there are so many OTHER fish to fry, AND the demons and deevils are leaving themselves wide open on other fronts?

I see what you are trying to say but I think you are missing several points. I do bring up that quite a few dimensions, possibly all of them, are involved. Its not just the three galaxies, which would fit your Ukraine comparison better. Its quite possibly the entire multiverse. The Earth just happens to be one of the most strategic locations in it.

except that we actually have books to support the idea that the minion war is mainly being fought in a few key locations (HU earth, the Great Rift on PF, the Three Galaxies, Rifts Earth, and the home dimensions

I do see the demons and devils as over reaching too but don't forget that they have a literally inexhaustible supply of troops. They die, are reborn in hell, and go rampaging again.

1d4 DECADES later.... the minion war is going to be pretty much OVER by the time any troops that die in this round of battles reforms

They can also draw on the resources of the territories they have conquered. Which grows as they take more. Leaving a place as strategically valuable as Rifts Earth to the local defense forces seems an unnecessary and even foolish risk.

That is going to take years to do. Its not like the demons can just waltz in, take over a place, and a few weeks later expect a loyal army of locals to march forth to do their bidding. Eventually sure....but by then the strategic harm the angels could do elsewhere is potentially going to be catastrophic

Your Arensigli example implies a resource limit which I do not recall the material supporting. They have actual demon "planets" wandering around the Three Galaxies. Each side also has several units assigned to conquering Earth, as well as significant local assets to draw on. If their operations in other dimensions are anywhere near as well supplied then the entire multiverse could become collateral damage.

There is one demon planet (an independent entity) supporting the Hades operations.
Also since there is
1) a finite sized dimension that is ruled where ALL the demons come from
2) there are finite population sizes given
it follows that there are finite numbers of demons (it is in the millions yes....but not the hundreds of trillions needed to effectively threated a galaxy let ALONE 'the megaverse'

Not to mention that their rebirthing ability means that they can concentrate their forces when and where they choose to achieve local superiority. They'll never actually run out of troops. Internal political dynamics may hinder their ability to concentrate but as with the developing arms race they will tactically and strategically adjust.

They get their troops back...in a few short decades.... so yes they can easily run out of troops at any given time.

Nor do I see the portals as being impossibilities. Yes their completion could potentially signal "game over" but the material for the Minion War does seem to be about raising the stakes higher than ever before. Which again begs the question of why angelic style dimensions are restricting themselves to political and covert operations when so much is on the line.

The portals can only be opened on four days of the year. And if ANY portion of the pillars is damaged, or if the energy is disrupted then the ritual fails.
It is TRIVIALLY easy to do this. If nothing else...
A mage can cast 'Ley Line Shutdown' on the line. Presto there went your nexus.
Or an anti-magic cloud cast over the pit. Presto no rituals of completion for you!
Or a large explosive (like a small nuke) inside the pit. Oops, get a new monolith
River of Lava (which every Seraph knows) can damage those anchors pretty well
Or Travel Through Stone to pop up below one and hit it
Or....

[Tor]

In a universe with so many dimensions I have a hard time buying that the only real foil to demon and devil ambitions is each other.

Not the only foil, just competitors who have it out for each other since they encountered each other more.

We know there are forces of "good" about. If "bad," splugorth, vampires, devils, demons, etc... have their own dimensions and have lasted this long then "good" should have a couple too.

I'm sure they DID, but those who fight dirty have a tendency to win, so they tend to get conquered by the bad guys.

I mean, just look at the ratio of alien intelligences out there. Only about 1% are good, I think? That would have a huge influence on what dominates dimensions.

Maybe they don't normally get involved in the affairs of lesser beings because they are guarding the old ones, look down on "lesser beings," or have adopted a more monk/isolationist ideology.

Or they are slaves. You can make decent bucks selling zombitron-enslaved angels in Splynn. They're incredibly easy to summon.

Angelic goodness means they would not try to become "Angel Lords" by getting other angels to worship them, or live long lifespans to gain power by hiding in a fortress. They would be less concerned about enhancing survival by finding strength in numbers or fighting dirty. All this threatens their numbers compared to weaker but more self-involved beings like demons.

If summoning/slaving was easy enough most of the universe would likely have been shackled by the devil demon showdown. Just as I have a hard time believing that supposedly strategically critical real estate like Earth would be left to "lesser beings" by higher beings. I doubt the demons and devils are the only ones who can see the stakes here. Would they really leave it to lesser beings and just hope the two bad guys wear each other out?

The other powers are wisely lurking in the shadows. Much like the Demon Lords aren't directly taking the field, neither are the Gods or alien intelligences. Why put yourself at risk?

The supernatural minions of some deities could obviously get involved, but still, the gods seem wise enough to only make a play when they gain something from it. The Lords of Hades/Dyval may have lost sight of this to some degree, although their minions dying off-plane coming back eventually does alter the risk factor a bit.

If the Pantheons deities lack the respawn capabilities (deific powers) of the D+G folk (including the Lords of Dyval+Hades) this could also explain why they don't get involved. Particularly since they usually have way less MDC when outside their home realm, a penalty many of the D+G guys do not have.

If we look at the best defined deific strongholds on Rifts Earth (South America 1 and 2) we can see that both the Cat Gods and Inca Gods have well fortified positions but are less durable outside those city-country regions they've focused their worshippers in.