How would you build a magical tank corps.

[Subjugator]

I am willing to bet the tank has more fire power, and armor that also includes a 1 million TW modification budget. The tank does not require as much training for the crew as PA.
The tank is more like a giant robot in than a PA in roll. But it is a matter of personal choice.

The Gladius battery powered exoskeleton is 150K and JA-12 costs 50K. Add in some extra e-clips and some grenades and you're looking at less than 250K per fully equipped suit for hardware costs. Add in a TW modification to give some magical protection and you have a net cost of less than 500K per suit. That's 14 PA suits for every single tank you're outfitting.

You can get a Juicer for around 160K a year. Make it a psychic Juicer and add...what...40K more? That's 200K per year per suit in salaries per suit. The tank takes a crew of four, and they're not working for chicken feed. You're going to pay at least that much for the tank crew, particularly if you include a TW in the mix. I almost forgot that it's 14 Juicers, so drop it back by 4 to make it 10 Juicers (net savings of 1M cr initially and 800K for the first year's salary).

Assuming you're using the Iron Heart Hammer Main Battle Tank, and with all else being equal and assuming everyone is first level, the Juicer will generally get 6-7 attacks per round, compared to the average of 4-5 attacks per round for each person in the tank. I'll assume everyone has boxing and martial arts skills, so that'd be 17 attacks per round for the tank* and 70 attacks per round for the Juicers.

Tank Damage
Maximum tank damage (maximums per combat round)
Main gun damage: 360 (3D6 x 10 x 2 shots*)
IH-100 Rail Gun: 300 (1D6x10 x 5 shots***)
Vulcan Laser: 720 (3D4x10 x 6 shots***)
Medium Range Missile Launchers (2): 3000** (5D6x10 x 10, divided over 3 shots)

Total maximum damage on the first round: 4380
Total maximum damage per typical round: 1380

Juicer Damage
JA-12 Rifle: 4200 (1D6x10x70)

Total maximum damage on the first round: 4200
Total maximum damage per typical round: 4200

If you plan on assaulting another kingdom, the tanks might make more sense, since they'd let you start out with a real wallop before ever closing with them. If you're looking for basic defense though, I'd go with Juicers every time. Even with assault I might go with the Juicers, because if someone lets fly with the missiles, the Juicers get a chance to shoot them down, and lemme tell ya, with 14 Juicers shooting at your missiles, the chances of any of them making it through aren't great. Add in the Juicers' auto-dodge ability and the additional ability to survive that gives them and combine that with the greater overall damage they do, and it makes them a far superior choice for most needs.

Even outside of the Juicer I'd go with Iron Eagle attack helicopters first (using gas engines) and add the TW enhancements to them before I'd go with tanks, since you can get about 3 of those for every single tank you'd be fielding and they pack a serious punch, include flight ability, and

If you're going to go with tanks anyway though, I'd go with old SDC ones, beef up the magical protection on 'em, and mount newer weapons on 'em (with reinforcements to handle the heavier weapon shock).

Oh yeah, and if you want to do an analysis of MDC, we can, but you'll find that 150MD per suit x 10, plus any magical protections (assuming Armor of Ithan at 10th level, it'd be 250MD per suit), is far greater than that you will get from the tanks, and the auto-dodge, superior mobility, and ability to spread out that the juicers have, their situation is far superior to that of the tanks.

/Sub

*The main gun on the Iron Hammer Main Battle Tank can only fire twice per round, and the gunner is in a compartment in the turret, so he cannot fire anything else. I realized that after I started typing all of this.
**The missile launcher can only do this for one round. After that, it must be reloaded over a period of time so long it might as well not be included in the same combat.
***I maximized damage for actions for each crew member. The main gun can only fire twice per round and can only be fired by a person in the turret compartment. The Vulcan Laser can only fire six times per round, and the maximum number of missiles per volley is 4, and both launchers are fired together, so the remainder of the shots were put on the IH-100 rail gun.

[Blue_Lion]

I am willing to bet the tank has more fire power, and armor that also includes a 1 million TW modification budget. The tank does not require as much training for the crew as PA.
The tank is more like a giant robot in than a PA in roll. But it is a matter of personal choice.

The Gladius battery powered exoskeleton is 150K and JA-12 costs 50K. Add in some extra e-clips and some grenades and you're looking at less than 250K per fully equipped suit for hardware costs. Add in a TW modification to give some magical protection and you have a net cost of less than 500K per suit. That's 14 PA suits for every single tank you're outfitting.

You can get a Juicer for around 160K a year. Make it a psychic Juicer and add...what...40K more? That's 200K per year per suit in salaries per suit. The tank takes a crew of four, and they're not working for chicken feed. You're going to pay at least that much for the tank crew, particularly if you include a TW in the mix. I almost forgot that it's 14 Juicers, so drop it back by 4 to make it 10 Juicers (net savings of 1M cr initially and 800K for the first year's salary).

Assuming you're using the Iron Heart Hammer Main Battle Tank, and with all else being equal and assuming everyone is first level, the Juicer will generally get 6-7 attacks per round, compared to the average of 4-5 attacks per round for each person in the tank. I'll assume everyone has boxing and martial arts skills, so that'd be 17 attacks per round for the tank* and 70 attacks per round for the Juicers.

Tank Damage
Maximum tank damage (maximums per combat round)
Main gun damage: 360 (3D6 x 10 x 2 shots*)
IH-100 Rail Gun: 300 (1D6x10 x 5 shots***)
Vulcan Laser: 720 (3D4x10 x 6 shots***)
Medium Range Missile Launchers (2): 3000** (5D6x10 x 10, divided over 3 shots)

Total maximum damage on the first round: 4380
Total maximum damage per typical round: 1380

Juicer Damage
JA-12 Rifle: 4200 (1D6x10x70)

Total maximum damage on the first round: 4200
Total maximum damage per typical round: 4200

If you plan on assaulting another kingdom, the tanks might make more sense, since they'd let you start out with a real wallop before ever closing with them. If you're looking for basic defense though, I'd go with Juicers every time. Even with assault I might go with the Juicers, because if someone lets fly with the missiles, the Juicers get a chance to shoot them down, and lemme tell ya, with 14 Juicers shooting at your missiles, the chances of any of them making it through aren't great. Add in the Juicers' auto-dodge ability and the additional ability to survive that gives them and combine that with the greater overall damage they do, and it makes them a far superior choice for most needs.

Even outside of the Juicer I'd go with Iron Eagle attack helicopters first (using gas engines) and add the TW enhancements to them before I'd go with tanks, since you can get about 3 of those for every single tank you'd be fielding and they pack a serious punch, include flight ability, and

If you're going to go with tanks anyway though, I'd go with old SDC ones, beef up the magical protection on 'em, and mount newer weapons on 'em (with reinforcements to handle the heavier weapon shock).

Oh yeah, and if you want to do an analysis of MDC, we can, but you'll find that 150MD per suit x 10, plus any magical protections (assuming Armor of Ithan at 10th level, it'd be 250MD per suit), is far greater than that you will get from the tanks, and the auto-dodge, superior mobility, and ability to spread out that the juicers have, their situation is far superior to that of the tanks.

/Sub

*The main gun on the Iron Hammer Main Battle Tank can only fire twice per round, and the gunner is in a compartment in the turret, so he cannot fire anything else. I realized that after I started typing all of this.
**The missile launcher can only do this for one round. After that, it must be reloaded over a period of time so long it might as well not be included in the same combat.
***I maximized damage for actions for each crew member. The main gun can only fire twice per round and can only be fired by a person in the turret compartment. The Vulcan Laser can only fire six times per round, and the maximum number of missiles per volley is 4, and both launchers are fired together, so the remainder of the shots were put on the IH-100 rail gun.

The coaxial rail gun the one next the main gun is what the main gunner fires when not shooting the main gun. so you left out the shots on that.

It is clear the point of this exercise was lost on you. You are mistaking rolls in combat, and now using juicers. Juicers and PA belong to a different sub set of military units.

The point of a tank is a heavily armored heavy hitter much like an assault robot.

A medium sized to large kingdom would probably have around 100 tanks. In addition they would have other types of troops including augmented infantry. But you are hey lets drop one whole type of combat unit in favor of over specializing because it is cheaper. Let me ask you this what is going to have a longer service life baring loss in combat your juicers or the tank? Typically a tank crew can serve for 10-20 years and without a better tank coming along the tank would probably be in service for just as long if not longer. Even the CS with its unlimited military budget makes use of tanks. Combat force are often made up of many different types of units.

(If you use juicers heavily instead of other types of units if the enemy finds a way to take out your chemical supply for a prolonged time you would loose you Juicers. This would be a real issue in a siege, or prolonged war.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Buy/build a bunch of light SDC tanks, then add in Giant for size/MDC, Enchant Weapon for duration, and Annihilate for damage. Maybe a long range spell to boost the range.

[Subjugator]

The coaxial rail gun the one next the main gun is what the main gunner fires when not shooting the main gun. so you left out the shots on that.

Okay, so add 120MD per round for that.

It is clear the point of this exercise was lost on you. You are mistaking rolls in combat

No, I'm not.

and now using juicers. Juicers and PA belong to a different sub set of military units.

I gave that suggestion earlier and now this is the objection?

The point of a tank is a heavily armored heavy hitter much like an assault robot.

Okay, and if you can create more aggregate damage for less, what then?

A medium sized to large kingdom would probably have around 100 tanks. In addition they would have other types of troops including augmented infantry. But you are hey lets drop one whole type of combat unit in favor of over specializing because it is cheaper.

You're talking about 100 tanks? That's a REALLY large kingdom if you ask me. Larsen's Brigade is a mercenary army and they don't have 100 tanks...they have 64, and according to Mercenaries (pg 10), "Typically, only the largest national governments can match these forces [mercenary armies]."

(The quote is in the book, but the emphasis is mine.)

Let me ask you this what is going to have a longer service life baring loss in combat your juicers or the tank?

You can hire new juicers. If you mean the equipment, it'll have PLENTY of service life. It has to be recharged, but tanks must be maintained and require refueling and/or recharging as well. Not only that, but the reduced expense of the suits can have you sacrifice several suits and let the investment returns of the reduced funds be directed to equipment upgrades, since doing so does not require that one replace equipment that costs 7M per item.

Typically a tank crew can serve for 10-20 years and without a better tank coming along the tank would probably be in service for just as long if not longer. Even the CS with its unlimited military budget makes use of tanks. Combat force are often made up of many different types of units.

Yes, they make use of tanks, but most medium to large kingdoms will NOT have enough money to field the armies you're thinking of. I thought you wanted at most maybe 5 - 10 tanks, and not something for an very, very large country. If I had a choice between 5-10 tanks and 50-100 Juicers (or the 15 - 30 helicopters) armed as I described above, I'd take the Juicers any day of the week.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

The coaxial rail gun the one next the main gun is what the main gunner fires when not shooting the main gun. so you left out the shots on that.

Okay, so add 120MD per round for that.

It is clear the point of this exercise was lost on you. You are mistaking rolls in combat

No, I'm not.

and now using juicers. Juicers and PA belong to a different sub set of military units.

I gave that suggestion earlier and now this is the objection?

The point of a tank is a heavily armored heavy hitter much like an assault robot.

Okay, and if you can create more aggregate damage for less, what then?

A medium sized to large kingdom would probably have around 100 tanks. In addition they would have other types of troops including augmented infantry. But you are hey lets drop one whole type of combat unit in favor of over specializing because it is cheaper.

You're talking about 100 tanks? That's a REALLY large kingdom if you ask me. Larsen's Brigade is a mercenary army and they don't have 100 tanks...they have 64, and according to Mercenaries (pg 10), "Typically, only the largest national governments can match these forces [mercenary armies]."

(The quote is in the book, but the emphasis is mine.)

Let me ask you this what is going to have a longer service life baring loss in combat your juicers or the tank?

You can hire new juicers. If you mean the equipment, it'll have PLENTY of service life. It has to be recharged, but tanks must be maintained and require refueling and/or recharging as well. Not only that, but the reduced expense of the suits can have you sacrifice several suits and let the investment returns of the reduced funds be directed to equipment upgrades, since doing so does not require that one replace equipment that costs 7M per item.

Typically a tank crew can serve for 10-20 years and without a better tank coming along the tank would probably be in service for just as long if not longer. Even the CS with its unlimited military budget makes use of tanks. Combat force are often made up of many different types of units.

Yes, they make use of tanks, but most medium to large kingdoms will NOT have enough money to field the armies you're thinking of. I thought you wanted at most maybe 5 - 10 tanks, and not something for an very, very large country. If I had a choice between 5-10 tanks and 50-100 Juicers (or the 15 - 30 helicopters) armed as I described above, I'd take the Juicers any day of the week.

/Sub

That is a matter of personal preference. This topic was if you where building a tank corps so you are missing the point it was hypothetical scenario of building a tank corps so you way off topic. As some one said earlier your way to do something is to not?

[Subjugator]

That is a matter of personal preference. This topic was if you where building a tank corps so you are missing the point it was hypothetical scenario of building a tank corps so you way off topic. As some one said earlier your way to do something is to not?

I addressed the topic...more than once:

If I were going for magic, I'd use old SDC stuff (cheap!) And mod it with shields and magic weapons.

If your sole goal is to reduce mortality then I'd go with the latest and toughest of tanks and add the following spells to them:

Defensive:
Armor of Ithan (or something better)
Invisibility
Camouflage
Shadow Meld
I don't remember the name of the spell, but the one that makes you silent

Offensive:
Magic Net
Carpet of Adhesion
Call lightning
Annihilate

Combination:
Time slip

I'd then staff each tank with people that have large amounts of PPE and one or more people that can use it to activate the spells on them.

If you only have a few tanks that won't be near each other on the battlefield and unlimited resources, you might want to make them have a gun that'll shoot anti-magic cloud, since it won't affect the tank itself and would hose any enemy spell casters.

You can get 10 modified M48A3 tanks for the same price you pay for one of the 7M credit tanks you're talking about, and that includes a bunch of TW enhancements to the M48A3s.

Oh, and my comments that you complained went off topic were in response to a comment you made:

I am willing to bet the tank has more fire power, and armor that also includes a 1 million TW modification budget. The tank does not require as much training for the crew as PA. The tank is more like a giant robot in than a PA in roll. But it is a matter of personal choice.

You said the tank has more firepower. I was illustrating that it only has marginally more firepower for the first shot and far, far less firepower for subsequent shots.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

That is a matter of personal preference. This topic was if you where building a tank corps so you are missing the point it was hypothetical scenario of building a tank corps so you way off topic. As some one said earlier your way to do something is to not?

I addressed the topic...more than once:

If I were going for magic, I'd use old SDC stuff (cheap!) And mod it with shields and magic weapons.

If your sole goal is to reduce mortality then I'd go with the latest and toughest of tanks and add the following spells to them:

Defensive:
Armor of Ithan (or something better)
Invisibility
Camouflage
Shadow Meld
I don't remember the name of the spell, but the one that makes you silent

Offensive:
Magic Net
Carpet of Adhesion
Call lightning
Annihilate

Combination:
Time slip

I'd then staff each tank with people that have large amounts of PPE and one or more people that can use it to activate the spells on them.

If you only have a few tanks that won't be near each other on the battlefield and unlimited resources, you might want to make them have a gun that'll shoot anti-magic cloud, since it won't affect the tank itself and would hose any enemy spell casters.

You can get 10 modified M48A3 tanks for the same price you pay for one of the 7M credit tanks you're talking about, and that includes a bunch of TW enhancements to the M48A3s.

Oh, and my comments that you complained went off topic were in response to a comment you made:

I am willing to bet the tank has more fire power, and armor that also includes a 1 million TW modification budget. The tank does not require as much training for the crew as PA. The tank is more like a giant robot in than a PA in roll. But it is a matter of personal choice.

You said the tank has more firepower. I was illustrating that it only has marginally more firepower for the first shot and far, far less firepower for subsequent shots.

/Sub

Sorry my bad, Let me rephrase it the build it by not is off topic. It misses the point It was an attempt for people to get creative with TW.

Even with the same goal there was many different approaches to it.

[The Artist Formerly]

you don't need a mage driving the tank.

psychics (ie 30% of the planet's human population) can operate many TW devices (including vehicles) just fine, with the effectiveness based on training (ie a psychic can use a TW TK-rifle, but only a psychic with the WP rifle skill will do a good job of it). as of RUE, any psychic can power and operate *any* TW device, whether it has a listed ISP cost or not.

but you don't even need a psychic. arzno has perfectly ordinary people who have essentially been given special training that allows them to use TW devices, iirc (somewhere does, at any rate, and i think the place is arzno... but maybe i've got the wrong place).

but you don't even need that. stormspire has the knowledge to make TW e-clips that can run various TW devices even for those without magical or psychic abilities. manoa (south american city) and the splugorth (see the powerlord and overlord armours for kydians) have been able to do so for quite some time as well. of course, those were proprietory technologies...

but as of RUE, any techno-wizard can make a device usable by anybody, so long as a power source is provided for them. such power devices can range from gems used as batteries, to TW devices that use energy sphere or talisman or similar, to ley lines, to a spell chain that draws life from the user to convert into PPE and power a device.

so really, no you don't need a mage to drive the tank. in fact, depending on the drive systems and such, you don't even need a mage to be the one to power the tank. once it's finished being constructed, you may never have to involve a mage in the tank's functioning ever again.

Blah.

You have parts from Iron-heart armaments, which doesn't exist anymore unless someone built a new factory outside of CS reach, then some techno-wizards rebuild group that is this undefined magic-state controlled with special connections to Arzno. Then you're going to rebuild this machine with a bunch of TW upgrades for questionably improved performance. Your doing this with rules that might not allow this action to happen. All to try and do what the tech boys have been able to since the beginning of the game. "Contrived" doesn't begin to touch it.

TW engines require call lightning for a recharge, not just spending double it's PPE in ISP for a charge. TW built PPE storage batteries use Talisman, as the spell, level 13 magic and 500 PPE from the caster. Holy crap! Those resources are better spent other places. You know, like buying Ulti-maxes.

[Blue_Lion]

you don't need a mage driving the tank.

psychics (ie 30% of the planet's human population) can operate many TW devices (including vehicles) just fine, with the effectiveness based on training (ie a psychic can use a TW TK-rifle, but only a psychic with the WP rifle skill will do a good job of it). as of RUE, any psychic can power and operate *any* TW device, whether it has a listed ISP cost or not.

but you don't even need a psychic. arzno has perfectly ordinary people who have essentially been given special training that allows them to use TW devices, iirc (somewhere does, at any rate, and i think the place is arzno... but maybe i've got the wrong place).

but you don't even need that. stormspire has the knowledge to make TW e-clips that can run various TW devices even for those without magical or psychic abilities. manoa (south american city) and the splugorth (see the powerlord and overlord armours for kydians) have been able to do so for quite some time as well. of course, those were proprietory technologies...

but as of RUE, any techno-wizard can make a device usable by anybody, so long as a power source is provided for them. such power devices can range from gems used as batteries, to TW devices that use energy sphere or talisman or similar, to ley lines, to a spell chain that draws life from the user to convert into PPE and power a device.

so really, no you don't need a mage to drive the tank. in fact, depending on the drive systems and such, you don't even need a mage to be the one to power the tank. once it's finished being constructed, you may never have to involve a mage in the tank's functioning ever again.

Blah.

You have parts from Iron-heart armaments, which doesn't exist anymore unless someone built a new factory outside of CS reach, then some techno-wizards rebuild group that is this undefined magic-state controlled with special connections to Arzno. Then you're going to rebuild this machine with a bunch of TW upgrades for questionably improved performance. Your doing this with rules that might not allow this action to happen. All to try and do what the tech boys have been able to since the beginning of the game. "Contrived" doesn't begin to touch it.

TW engines require call lightning for a recharge, not just spending double it's PPE in ISP for a charge. TW built PPE storage batteries use Talisman, as the spell, level 13 magic and 500 PPE from the caster. Holy crap! Those resources are better spent other places. You know, like buying Ulti-maxes.

You have stated it several times, but it is off topic. The goal is to be a simple way to get creative with TW. So you have repeatedly been trying to hijack the thread.
The ultra max is three times more expensive, the date was never stated even at the currant date several tanks may still be on the market.

[Shark_Force]

generally speaking, militia aren't given free access to multi-million dollar machines.

tank drivers (and power armours, apart from maybe the really crappy chipwell suits) are going to be professional soldiers of some variety (including mercenary).

which is still beside the point. you've made a TW tank. give it the ability to do the things you want it to do, and then send the techno-wizard somewhere else to do other things. if you want the TW tank to be able to repair itself, either have a TW support vehicle that can repair your tanks or make the tank self-repairing. the techno-wizard is better used elsewhere, like in places that don't already have the top 4-6 spells you wanted available to them. a techno-wizard travelling with a group of infantry can give the infantry access to a whole host of useful spells. a techno-wizard travelling in a TW tank has *already* given the tank those useful spells, for the most part. it won't need impervious to energy cast on it; you already did that. it won't need superior invisibility; you already gave it access to that.

more likely, you have a shifter with energy sphere assign each crew member 1-2 spheres with 200 or more PPE (shifters can learn it at level 2 for free, and can give them away without limit (to himself; for the targets, you're limited to one per shoulder, which generally means 2 per person) apart from duration, which is fairly long. those crew members should be trained to be able to power the TW devices, as we know can be done. if you have 3 crew members in the tank, that's easily as much as 1200 PPE available (more if the shifter is high level), plus any storage the tank can provide; frankly, at that point, whether one of those people is a TW that can provide an extra 100ish PPE or not is moot. if you need more PPE, find a way to shove another random shmuck in the vehicle (or in a nearby vehicle; remember, you're going to want support vehicles as well).

@ the artist formerly: we're not doing anything questionable. the book of magic updated the list of stuff that can definitely be done with vehicles.

there are rules for making new devices. one very clear specific option is to make PPE storage devices, and they are drastically cheaper than the talisman option (they cost some money, but what's 20,000 credits when your budget for the vehicle is in the millions?). *if* we even go that route rather than just using the fact that you *can* train ordinary humans to be able to use TW devices, and there is a canon spell with a duration in days that can store very large amounts of PPE drawn from a ley line or other sources, and be given to anyone you please.

furthermore, it isn't doing stuff tech has been able to do forever. tech is not able to simply vanish from radar, or become completely impervious to plasma or lasers. tech *can* create forcefields (though it's far from common), but they generally run out and are gone, requiring HOURS to recover MDC available; TW forcefields can generally speaking be restored to full strength with a single action and some PPE. there are dozens of things that magic does very well, very easily, which tech struggles greatly to accomplish, if it can do so at all. it isn't contrived in any way to want your tank to be immune to most small arms fire and many larger weapons. it isn't contrived to want your tank to be completely undetectable. it isn't contrived to want your tank to be self-repairing or to have a protective forcefield that only costs an easily-recharged resource to power up.

you don't like it, that's fine. but your arguments make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[Mack]

There's another aspect that worth exploring: TW cannon shells. Use the TW guidelines in RUE on making single-use TW devices (which require substantially less resources, but are destroyed when used) to create cannon shells with magical effects.

Want to catch a target instead of just damaging it? Load a Magic Net shell.
Want to burn a target? Load a Fire Globe shell.
In a panic and want to inflict a lot of damage right now? Load an Annihilate shell.
Want put the opposition into chaos? Load a Havoc shell.
Oh, a supernatural critter? Load a Desiccate the Supernatural shell.

Not that any of these would replace your standard explosive or Armor Penetrating rounds for most shots, but a handful of special shells can give the crew a lot of options.

(If I get a bit of time I may work up the numbers to see how cheaply they can be made. I recall it's a fractions of the normal costs, but don't have the book handy.)

[The Artist Formerly]

You have stated it several times, but it is off topic. The goal is to be a simple way to get creative with TW. So you have repeatedly been trying to hijack the thread.
The ultra max is three times more expensive, the date was never stated even at the currant date several tanks may still be on the market.

I like to think of it as forcing your head beneath the waters of enlightenment, rather then thread jacking.

First of all, cost/benefit, dorks in body armor with Wilks lasers rifles wins almost every conflict if access to/denial of resources is taken off the table. Power armor is the next best thing(Power armor/robot combat skill gives you more actions per round and a dodge bonus which pays out at the end of the round when you can shoot and they can't), then smallish bots (like the Ulti-max). The really big bots are white elephants, and as a rule, the older ones are much more effective then the newer ones.

In large scale combat, magic is an inferior power source. That's because these spells are at their core, born out of PFRPG and have to be compatible with it. Which is scaled to make dork with sword equal to dork with spells. This has been a problem since world five. Tech has gotten faster and more powerful with more and more options, while magic... well, in FOM they got more ways of doing the same basic things. Which is ironic because FOM was supposed to help balance things back out.

All of the magically power nation states are powerful by writer fiat, House Davion style, rather then reflected in the game rules. Burst capable weapons at ranges spells for the most part can't hope to match.

All of that said. If you want to deploy TW for the hypothetical kingdom of magic-town, then first address the limitations of your army. When you add magic, what are you improving? Is there a weakness in the system that you're overcoming? Can your spells add new levels of tactical flexibility or mobility? What do these improvements cost you?

[Blue_Lion]

There's another aspect that worth exploring: TW cannon shells. Use the TW guidelines in RUE on making single-use TW devices (which require substantially less resources, but are destroyed when used) to create cannon shells with magical effects.

Want to catch a target instead of just damaging it? Load a Magic Net shell.
Want to burn a target? Load a Fire Globe shell.
In a panic and want to inflict a lot of damage right now? Load an Annihilate shell.
Want put the opposition into chaos? Load a Havoc shell.
Oh, a supernatural critter? Load a Desiccate the Supernatural shell.

Not that any of these would replace your standard explosive or Armor Penetrating rounds for most shots, but a handful of special shells can give the crew a lot of options.

(If I get a bit of time I may work up the numbers to see how cheaply they can be made. I recall it's a fractions of the normal costs, but don't have the book handy.)

yep that is the advantage of having a cannon that can shoot rounds is using special rounds. I would go with meteor for the shells, or COA.

[The Artist Formerly]

There's another aspect that worth exploring: TW cannon shells. Use the TW guidelines in RUE on making single-use TW devices (which require substantially less resources, but are destroyed when used) to create cannon shells with magical effects.

Want to catch a target instead of just damaging it? Load a Magic Net shell.
Want to burn a target? Load a Fire Globe shell.
In a panic and want to inflict a lot of damage right now? Load an Annihilate shell.
Want put the opposition into chaos? Load a Havoc shell.
Oh, a supernatural critter? Load a Desiccate the Supernatural shell.

Not that any of these would replace your standard explosive or Armor Penetrating rounds for most shots, but a handful of special shells can give the crew a lot of options.

(If I get a bit of time I may work up the numbers to see how cheaply they can be made. I recall it's a fractions of the normal costs, but don't have the book handy.)

That's what I was thinking with my post back on page one, but those higher level spells are a killer. In phase world, the UWW had a couple of neat magic attack tricks but that line of thinking seems to have ended when CJ quit. None of the spells that jump to mind have serious AOEs better then conventional shells/missiles which is a major limiter. TW rain maker flares in shell form would be useful down south. Still they need to provide a significant advantage and do it cheaply to be useful.

[Blue_Lion]

You have stated it several times, but it is off topic. The goal is to be a simple way to get creative with TW. So you have repeatedly been trying to hijack the thread.
The ultra max is three times more expensive, the date was never stated even at the currant date several tanks may still be on the market.

I like to think of it as forcing your head beneath the waters of enlightenment, rather then thread jacking.

First of all, cost/benefit, dorks in body armor with Wilks lasers rifles wins almost every conflict if access to/denial of resources is taken off the table. Power armor is the next best thing(Power armor/robot combat skill gives you more actions per round and a dodge bonus which pays out at the end of the round when you can shoot and they can't), then smallish bots (like the Ulti-max). The really big bots are white elephants, and as a rule, the older ones are much more effective then the newer ones.

In large scale combat, magic is an inferior power source. That's because these spells are at their core, born out of PFRPG and have to be compatible with it. Which is scaled to make dork with sword equal to dork with spells. This has been a problem since world five. Tech has gotten faster and more powerful with more and more options, while magic... well, in FOM they got more ways of doing the same basic things. Which is ironic because FOM was supposed to help balance things back out.

All of the magically power nation states are powerful by writer fiat, House Davion style, rather then reflected in the game rules. Burst capable weapons at ranges spells for the most part can't hope to match.

All of that said. If you want to deploy TW for the hypothetical kingdom of magic-town, then first address the limitations of your army. When you add magic, what are you improving? Is there a weakness in the system that you're overcoming? Can your spells add new levels of tactical flexibility or mobility? What do these improvements cost you?

I have proven that cost whys the tank can beat you Ultra-max.
You are off the intent of the intent of the thread.
The intent of the thread was for a exercise in TW and all your ultra-max and do not do it is in direct conflict with that. So you are not proving your point just how stubborn you can be. So the idea is not your cup of tea move on, you are off topic and searing it into a debate instead of people coming up with ideas.

[The Artist Formerly]

You have stated it several times, but it is off topic. The goal is to be a simple way to get creative with TW. So you have repeatedly been trying to hijack the thread.
The ultra max is three times more expensive, the date was never stated even at the currant date several tanks may still be on the market.

I like to think of it as forcing your head beneath the waters of enlightenment, rather then thread jacking.

First of all, cost/benefit, dorks in body armor with Wilks lasers rifles wins almost every conflict if access to/denial of resources is taken off the table. Power armor is the next best thing(Power armor/robot combat skill gives you more actions per round and a dodge bonus which pays out at the end of the round when you can shoot and they can't), then smallish bots (like the Ulti-max). The really big bots are white elephants, and as a rule, the older ones are much more effective then the newer ones.

In large scale combat, magic is an inferior power source. That's because these spells are at their core, born out of PFRPG and have to be compatible with it. Which is scaled to make dork with sword equal to dork with spells. This has been a problem since world five. Tech has gotten faster and more powerful with more and more options, while magic... well, in FOM they got more ways of doing the same basic things. Which is ironic because FOM was supposed to help balance things back out.

All of the magically power nation states are powerful by writer fiat, House Davion style, rather then reflected in the game rules. Burst capable weapons at ranges spells for the most part can't hope to match.

All of that said. If you want to deploy TW for the hypothetical kingdom of magic-town, then first address the limitations of your army. When you add magic, what are you improving? Is there a weakness in the system that you're overcoming? Can your spells add new levels of tactical flexibility or mobility? What do these improvements cost you?

I have proven that cost whys the tank can beat you Ultra-max.
You are off the intent of the intent of the thread.
The intent of the thread was for a exercise in TW and all your ultra-max and do not do it is in direct conflict with that. So you are not proving your point just how stubborn you can be. So the idea is not your cup of tea move on, you are off topic and searing it into a debate instead of people coming up with ideas.

Fair enough.

[torjones]

How would I build a Magical Tank Corps?

Main Battle Tank: TW Scarab (Based of course of the CS Scarab Officer's Car, AFC-103) (probably use NG knockoffs, especially if they can build with the mundane modifications listed below)
Modifications:
Replace twin lasers with NG-P7 & NG-202.
Replace passenger seating with additional gunner seating to control each turret separately.
Replace mini missile launchers with NG-P85s.
TW Features added:
Invincible Armor
Impervious to Energy
Breathe Without Air
Invisible Superior
Mend the Broken

Main APC: TW Death Bringer (Again, obviously based off of the CS Death Bringer APC, AC-151) (Again, use NG knockoffs, if they can build with the mundane modifications listed below)
Modifications:
Replace twin lasers with NG-P7 & NG-202.
Replace CPC-100 with NG-P85. Add secondary turret with NG-505.
Double gunnery positions to fully man each weapon system.
E-clip recharging station.
TW Features added:
Invincible Armor
Impervious to Energy
Breathe Without Air
Invisible Superior
Mend the Broken

Artillery Support (Ok, so it's more of a gunship): TW Sky Lifter (Based off of the CS Sky Lifter Death's Head Transport AFC-060) (Something similar to this was done in one of the rifters, but I can't remember which one...)
Modifications:
Replace CPC-200 with Triax TX-843P. Add secondary turret with NG-505.
Add 6 NG-505 turrets to each side.
Add 4 Triax TX-884I turrets to each side.
TW Features added:
Invincible Armor
Impervious to Energy
Breathe Without Air
Invisible Superior
Mend the Broken

Troops are equipped with Branaghan body armor (enhanced with invincible armor, impervious to energy, and breathe without air), NG-LG6 (modified to take a power feed from an external source), "Grav Pack" with power feed to weapon. NCOs carry NG-P7. Officers carry whatever they want.

Heavy Troops are equipped with Sidewinder SAMAS, NCOs get Wild Weasel SAMAS, both with all five TW Features as listed above added, plus silence on weapons and thrusters.

Support Vehicles: Triax XM-250 Medical Hover Station; Triax XM-170 Infantry Repair Barge; Modified Triax XM-170 Infantry Repair Barge(Converted to a chow hall & mobile kitchen); (BTW: why is a repair barge unavailable on the black market... surely adventurers might want something like this to adventure with?) Support Personnel in combat areas would be equipped as a standard Troop.

While I might have mages in with the troops, as in something like a special weapons team, I would not have them in the individual tanks. Keep the valuable TWs and such back at the Repair Barges where the tankers are already going to take the tank to get repaired once they withdraw from combat. No need to expose the TWs to combat unnecessarily.

The problem, as I see it, with most magical weapons for troops is that they are much more expensive, don't do as much damage, and the payload on the TW weapons is generally terrible in comparison to technological weapons. That is not to say that there aren't some examples where the magical version isn't better than given technological examples, such as the TW Standard Laser Pistol Vs C-18. Same range and payload, but the TW version has better damage and is recharged for 7 PPE. Down side is that it's 4 times more expensive, while the Stormspire version is more than 7 times more expensive.

However, magic can be very effectively used to enhance technological equipment, as shown by the above, and previous posts by others. Very expensive, sure, but then again, not so expensive either. 3 million credits for a 500 MDC main battle tank with 4 gunners who can choose between unlimited ammo and switch to a railgun when necessary, with excellent speed and maneuverability? I think that's pretty inexpensive for what you're getting. Then again, 750k per infantry & support person, very not cheap. 4.5 million for an upgraded Sidewinder that'll last a good deal longer in combat, is a cost effective upgrade. It all depends really on the base vehicle you start with that determines what you wind up with. To not make these kinds of upgrades to an 80 million credit Naruni Juggernaut would just be kinda foolish.

[Mack]

Here’s some quick stats for TW Cannon Shells. All are device level one.

Magic Net Shell: 3.5 hours to make, $550 build cost.
Fire Globe Shell: 4 hours to make, $775 build cost.
Annihilate Shell: 100 hours to make, $17,500 build cost.
Havoc Shell: 8.75 hours to make, $1,675 build cost.
Desiccate the Supernatural Shell: 10 hours to make, $1,875 build cost.

Looking in Merc Ops, the cost of normal cannon shells ranges from $800 to $5,200 per round. So TW shells are definitely feasible.

[Shark_Force]

magic is not good at nuking, generally speaking. i'll grant you that. if that were the only metric, then I might be inclined to agree that magic is weak.

but it isn't the only metric. you can have a laser rifle that deals 1d6x10+10 with a 3-shot pulse at 4000 feet. so can that ley line walker. the difference is that the ley line walker can make himself immune to your laser entirely, and walk right up to you while your shots do nothing. meanwhile, if you want to negate his laser rifle, you can run away, hide in a hole and hope he doesn't find you, or surrender.

defensively and in utility, magic is extremely powerful. and at close range, magic can win a fight with you barely even getting a chance to fight. with the right spell (or TW weapon), you are immediately immobilized and possibly prevented from acting, and you may or may not even get a saving throw to avoid it. and with the right spell, the ley line walker can walk right up to you and get into range for that spell. if you're not aware, you likely won't even get a save or dodge roll against the better ones.

then there's summoning. the tech equivalent tends to cost millions of credits per unit, minimum, and that's not counting maintenance and repairs. to get a useful MDC minion, it will generally speaking cost a mage a chunk of PPE, which replenishes on it's own (or can be gathered from a ley line in advance) and a couple of actions. they are frequently not permanent (until destroyed), but then again, sometimes they are (and let's face it, having an MDC minion that isn't going to last is fairly standard... a 200 MDC robot can very quickly become a 0 MDC robot through extended use). a skilled magic user could have several tectonic entities, for example (arguably more, there's technically a limit on how many you can control with one casting, but no explicit limit preventing you from casting it dozens of times). you think your power armour gives you more actions? this one spell, which lasts for days at a time, can give a shifter several extra *sets* of actions to work with, and that's just one of the available spells. other options include, for example, controlling possessing entities to take over various other creatures (including you in your fancy power armour).

simply put, there are ways to contribute in a fight other than dealing damage. magic is good at many of those things, and does not in any way prevent you from using the same laser rifle the tech-based characters use (in fact, depending on the spells they know, a good magic user can actually make those laser rifles *more* useful).

so, with techno-wizardry, that is the principle I would focus on. I don't care about the meteor spell or even the air bolt spell or the annihilate spell. my tank will likely fire the exact same kind of ammunition as a conventional tank in the main gun, and if I have any TW weapons at all, it won't be for the direct damage (on the other hand, a TW net gun for dealing with infantry sounds great, and a TW mental blast gun or killing word device to kill you dead right through your precious body armour and without disturbing the net may be an option as well). rather, the area to focus on will be elsewhere, in the areas that magic is amazing at.

@ mack: could've swore that single-use devices actually have an extra limitation on their device level, but I'm afb and can't check. I suspect those shells will generally cost more. but why would you make a fire globe shell? you could just *cast* fire globe and stick it to a regular shell.

[Mack]

@ mack: could've swore that single-use devices actually have an extra limitation on their device level, but I'm afb and can't check. I suspect those shells will generally cost more.

There's a note limiting the Device Level to no more than the creator's experience level, but the note is rather redundant as that's true of all TW devices.

but why would you make a fire globe shell? you could just *cast* fire globe and stick it to a regular shell.

A normal fire globe requires the owner to physically throw it which some GM's might argue about if you just stuck it to a normal shell. This method skips that problem, and the tank's crew doesn't have to do anything out of the ordinary. Just load and shoot like normal.

And frankly, I didn't put all that much thought into it. I just grabbed five semi-random spells to use as examples. They're not intended to be the best TW shells.

[Subjugator]

Here’s some quick stats for TW Cannon Shells. All are device level one.

Magic Net Shell: 3.5 hours to make, $550 build cost.
Fire Globe Shell: 4 hours to make, $775 build cost.
Annihilate Shell: 100 hours to make, $17,500 build cost.
Havoc Shell: 8.75 hours to make, $1,675 build cost.
Desiccate the Supernatural Shell: 10 hours to make, $1,875 build cost.

Looking in Merc Ops, the cost of normal cannon shells ranges from $800 to $5,200 per round. So TW shells are definitely feasible.

This is truly horrifying.

Annihilate is only 17.5K?

TW's got game!

TW's salesperson: Hey Mr. Merc Army Commander, I know you REALLY want the that 16M credit bounty from NG for the big old merc army that's out there making them mad, and I know you normally don't have the force to do it, but let's just say for argument's sake that I could make that possible for your tiny little force for...oh...HALF...what would you say to that...hm?
Merc Commander: I'd ask you to stop wasting my time, that's what!
TW's salesperson: Oh, but sir! This would be at no financial risk to you! We'd have fronted the costs for the addition. Look, if you'll just take a moment with me I'll be happy to demonstrate. Just have your tank commander load that shell into the main gun of that tank and fire it at...oh...that hill would be fine...I think you'll understand once you see what it can do!
Merc Commander: That's an awfully funny looking shell. What is it?
TW's salesperson:: It's a little toy my partner and I cooked up for our mutual friends. I assure you it won't damage your vehicle or its gun unless it's too close to the explosion.
Merc Commander: Well, you came with a good recommendation, and I hear you TW boys can do some interesting stuff. Let's give it a try. Load 'er up, Jenna!
TW's salesperson: Oh, but be very careful with that, little lady.
Merc Commander: *rolls his eyes* Jenna's been handling things that go boom since she was knee high to a Flooper! She's okay.
TW's salesperson: ...and yet I will still reinforce my recommendation that she act with great care.


*fires*

*KER-WHAP*

Jenna: *screams* WHAT THE <CENSORED> WAS THAT?! I want more! Boss, we could get Larsen to back down with these!
Merc Commander: *laughs* So, uh...yeahhhh...what exactly was that thing?
TW's salesperson: Why that's the the little gift package my partner and I put together for our...mutual friends.
Merc Commander: And how many of those can you get me?
TW's salesperson: It's a matter of time and expense, really. We can have 30 shells delivered for this little game in 24 hours. That should be plenty to more than...shall we say...level the playing field against the target of that bounty?
Merc Commander: Hell, they'll level the field, the buildings next to the field, and the hill next to them!
TW's salesperson: Oh, and do you still want me to stop bothering you, or is the 60% we want for our services too rich for your blood?
Merc Commander: What happened to half? You said half!
TW's salesperson: *laughs* Oh, but that was before you insulted us...and quite rudely, I might add! I'll tell you what though, you can buy them from us right now for 10M credits, and we'll go our separate ways. Or, you can give us 60% plus another 333,000 credits for the demonstration model. Which do you prefer?
Merc Commander: *pauses* You know, I think I have a better idea. Have you ever considered becoming half owner of a mercenary company? I think you'll find that there is always a high demand for our work, and with effectiveness you'd add to our organization you'll find that we'll be in a position to make millions!
TW: Well, we thought you might say something like that, and we had this contract all written up with that in mind. I feel obliged to point out that the number we were discussing was 60%, and when you add in the surety of knowledge that we won't be selling these to your competitors, it's well worth the 2/3 that we require. I think you'll find that you are going to command much higher fees and take much bigger jobs when these are available to you at cost.
Jenna: YOU TAKE THAT DEAL, BOSS! YOU HEAR ME?! I WANT THESE!

Yeah, that's about how it would go.

/Sub

[Mack]

Here’s some quick stats for TW Cannon Shells. All are device level one.

Magic Net Shell: 3.5 hours to make, $550 build cost.
Fire Globe Shell: 4 hours to make, $775 build cost.
Annihilate Shell: 100 hours to make, $17,500 build cost.
Havoc Shell: 8.75 hours to make, $1,675 build cost.
Desiccate the Supernatural Shell: 10 hours to make, $1,875 build cost.

Looking in Merc Ops, the cost of normal cannon shells ranges from $800 to $5,200 per round. So TW shells are definitely feasible.

This is truly horrifying.

Annihilate is only 17.5K?

TW's got game!

Keep in mind that Build Cost does not include the TW's labor rate. My arbitrary (non-canon) rule of thumb is to use the Device Level multiplied by Hours multiplied by $10. So for the Annihilate Shell it would be 1 * 100 * 10 = $1,000. Add that to the above Build Cost to get the breakeven price ($18,500)... and that's before the seller tries to turn any profit or marks it up for being a rare spell.

I use another formula for quickly ballparking an actual "For Sale" price, but again it's not canon. For this example, that work's out to $44,000.

My point? I know the $17.5k is low and incomplete, but it's a canon number.

[Subjugator]

Here’s some quick stats for TW Cannon Shells. All are device level one.

Magic Net Shell: 3.5 hours to make, $550 build cost.
Fire Globe Shell: 4 hours to make, $775 build cost.
Annihilate Shell: 100 hours to make, $17,500 build cost.
Havoc Shell: 8.75 hours to make, $1,675 build cost.
Desiccate the Supernatural Shell: 10 hours to make, $1,875 build cost.

Looking in Merc Ops, the cost of normal cannon shells ranges from $800 to $5,200 per round. So TW shells are definitely feasible.

This is truly horrifying.

Annihilate is only 17.5K?

TW's got game!

Keep in mind that Build Cost does not include the TW's labor rate. My arbitrary (non-canon) rule of thumb is to use the Device Level multiplied by Hours multiplied by $10. So for the Annihilate Shell it would be 1 * 100 * 10 = $1,000. Add that to the above Build Cost to get the breakeven price ($18,500)... and that's before the seller tries to turn any profit or marks it up for being a rare spell.

I use another formula for quickly ballparking an actual "For Sale" price, but again it's not canon. For this example, that work's out to $44,000.

My point? I know the $17.5k is low and incomplete, but it's a canon number.

44K is a steal, too!

It does 2D4x100 damage! What does a long range missile cost?

[Blue_Lion]

Here’s some quick stats for TW Cannon Shells. All are device level one.

Magic Net Shell: 3.5 hours to make, $550 build cost.
Fire Globe Shell: 4 hours to make, $775 build cost.
Annihilate Shell: 100 hours to make, $17,500 build cost.
Havoc Shell: 8.75 hours to make, $1,675 build cost.
Desiccate the Supernatural Shell: 10 hours to make, $1,875 build cost.

Looking in Merc Ops, the cost of normal cannon shells ranges from $800 to $5,200 per round. So TW shells are definitely feasible.

This is truly horrifying.

Annihilate is only 17.5K?

TW's got game!

Keep in mind that Build Cost does not include the TW's labor rate. My arbitrary (non-canon) rule of thumb is to use the Device Level multiplied by Hours multiplied by $10. So for the Annihilate Shell it would be 1 * 100 * 10 = $1,000. Add that to the above Build Cost to get the breakeven price ($18,500)... and that's before the seller tries to turn any profit or marks it up for being a rare spell.

I use another formula for quickly ballparking an actual "For Sale" price, but again it's not canon. For this example, that work's out to $44,000.

My point? I know the $17.5k is low and incomplete, but it's a canon number.

44K is a steal, too!

It does 2D4x100 damage! What does a long range missile cost?

Well that is out side the formula. It does not take into account cost of building expensive things like missiles. AS a GM I might require you to buy the missile to augment.

Better question does it come in Mini-missile. Infantry 1 shot a PA, vehicles with large mini salvo downing adult dragons in 1 shot.

(odd thought the spell causes the object hit to cease to exist if reduced to 0 MDC would that include the pilot of the PA or would he be standing there going where did my armor go or falling if it was a fling PA? What about the people inside a tank or APC?)

[Mack]

Better question does it come in Mini-missile. Infantry 1 shot a PA, vehicles with large mini salvo downing adult dragons in 1 shot.

That's firmly in the "GM's discretion" category. The GM must decide how small the weapon can be made. We can all agree that a .22 caliber bullet is way too small, and that a missile warhead is plenty large, but it's defining that middle ground that's a challenge.

Thematically, I believe a tank canon shell is as small as I would go for a spell with the magnitude of Annihilate. Any smaller and you begin to stray from the Form guideline (RUE p130). Your mileage may vary.

[Blue_Lion]

Better question does it come in Mini-missile. Infantry 1 shot a PA, vehicles with large mini salvo downing adult dragons in 1 shot.

That's firmly in the "GM's discretion" category. The GM must decide how small the weapon can be made. We can all agree that a .22 caliber bullet is way too small, and that a missile warhead is plenty large, but it's defining that middle ground that's a challenge.

Thematically, I believe a tank canon shell is as small as I would go for a spell with the magnitude of Annihilate. Any smaller and you begin to stray from the Form guideline (RUE p130). Your mileage may vary.

Cannons start as small as 25mm do exist so they could very well be in the same undefined range.
I was kind of goofing around the damage of such a round floating around can be very scary.

[Subjugator]

That's firmly in the "GM's discretion" category. The GM must decide how small the weapon can be made. We can all agree that a .22 caliber bullet is way too small, and that a missile warhead is plenty large, but it's defining that middle ground that's a challenge.

Thematically, I believe a tank canon shell is as small as I would go for a spell with the magnitude of Annihilate. Any smaller and you begin to stray from the Form guideline (RUE p130). Your mileage may vary.

For me it would depend on how small the gem required for the spell is. Remember that you can beef up the PPE requirements rather significantly and make the gem much smaller than is ordinarily required. The form guideline simply requires that the delivery system be consistent with the spell, doesn't it? Gotta remember that the bit of antimatter is TINY (and thank GOD for that or it'd do a lot more damage!), so that's not why it needs to be so big. I think it's the gems that'd do it, so if...say...some Splugorth wants to have some fun, he'd have plenty of PPE to put it into a .22lr or even a .17hmr if he really felt like it.

That would be a *REALLY* nice assassination weapon, too!

/Sub

[ShadowLogan]

Here’s some quick stats for TW Cannon Shells. All are device level one.

Magic Net Shell: 3.5 hours to make, $550 build cost.
Fire Globe Shell: 4 hours to make, $775 build cost.
Annihilate Shell: 100 hours to make, $17,500 build cost.
Havoc Shell: 8.75 hours to make, $1,675 build cost.
Desiccate the Supernatural Shell: 10 hours to make, $1,875 build cost.

Looking in Merc Ops, the cost of normal cannon shells ranges from $800 to $5,200 per round. So TW shells are definitely feasible.

Here are a few more, I think I did the number crunching correctly

Elemental Based Shells (note there are multiple gem types possible w/n a given branch and spells duplicated between branches, IINM I used the cheapest option as far as gems go, so it could cost more if you go w/more expensive gem due to availability), the minimum carrot (1/2 Device Level, which is 1)
River of Lava (Earth): 25hrs to build, 600credits in materials
Earthquake (Earth): 25hrs to build, 600credits in materials
Firequake (Earth): 40hrs to build, 900credits in materials
Tornado (Air): 30hrs to build, 2100credits in materials
Wall of Ice (Fire): 15hrs to build, 500credits in materials (this would be used to create obstacles to slow advances or divide forces, more of an area denial tool than a direct attack, though having an ice wall dropped on someone will pin them in place)
Wall of Stone (Earth): 7.5hrs to build, 250credits in materials (see Wall of Ice, this actually is more durable than ice and probably more attractive, use would be similar to Wall of Ice version)
Wall of Iron (Earth): 22.5hrs to build, 550credits in materials (as previous Wall of X versions, this is more durable than Ice and probably more attractive because of it)

Obviously some of these shells are more optimized for dealing with grounded targets who can't fly.

An idea from another topic, but how about a Transferal Shell or grenade, more useful in disrupting morale of anti-magic groups who can detect magic (like CS and dog-boys), more of a parting shot deal so when they return to base/form up they potentially can be seen as magic users (obviously it won't be permanent). 560credits in materials and 25hrs to build. The main hic-up is where the PPE comes from. It is unlikely the TW building it will want to be drained until use, so a PPE storage device would have to be used increasing cost and build time. The thing is I'm not sure if doing so would cause it to stop being a single use device or not.

[Jefffar]

I wanted to jump into this one a while ago, but work got in the way.

My answer to the question is based on a few variables.

1) What is the budget for building the force?
2) How big a territory does the force need to defend?
3) What are the anticipated threats to defend against?
4) What does the rest of the force look like and what role are the tans to play within that force?
5) Is there a restraint in the amount of manpower available for the tank force?
6) What are the limits on production capacity available to the kingdom?

[torjones]

Cannons start as small as 25mm do exist so they could very well be in the same undefined range.
I was kind of goofing around the damage of such a round floating around can be very scary.

In point of fact, in WWII the IJN's A6M (AKA Type 0, AKA Zeke, AKA The Zero) carried 2x 20mm cannons in the wings. Wasn't there a conversion done on it a while back? I seem to recall it being a TW conversion, but it could just as easily have been a GAW type of conversion...

[kaid]

Better question does it come in Mini-missile. Infantry 1 shot a PA, vehicles with large mini salvo downing adult dragons in 1 shot.

That's firmly in the "GM's discretion" category. The GM must decide how small the weapon can be made. We can all agree that a .22 caliber bullet is way too small, and that a missile warhead is plenty large, but it's defining that middle ground that's a challenge.

Thematically, I believe a tank canon shell is as small as I would go for a spell with the magnitude of Annihilate. Any smaller and you begin to stray from the Form guideline (RUE p130). Your mileage may vary.

It is TW stuff like this that turns that weird NG2 power armor that basically has the potato gun that can launch just about anything that fits into its barrel really useful. Its questionable for normal militaries but for TW who can make specialty munitions it is a pretty amazing weapon system.

[torjones]

Ok, one thing I don't get about "Tanks" in Rifts North America, is that according to Merc Ops, p122, every time that tank gun fires, it costs about 800 to 2600 credits. Let's assume a best case scenario: 800 credits per shell.

Now, that shell is a 120mm AP round coming out of the main gun on an M1A3 Abrams MBT, and scores average damage of 6d6 (21) MD.The Abrams only carries 36 rounds readily available, with another 6 in "hull storage." that means an average main gun damage per engagement of 756 (21*36). Now, it's true that you can do that to more than a mile away, but that's not a lot of damage, and it is awfully expensive. That five minute engagement (assuming that you have no battle damage to repair) 28.8k credits, just in main gun ammo.

Alternatively, you could use a Laser Cannon, similar to the one from the IAR-3 which does 1d6*10 (35 average damage) also at 6000' range, and has been around rifts earth since the Coalition War Campaign, so by now I'm sure that there are many knock-offs. (we have had the rifts catalog more than double since then) Sure, it would require a nuclear power source to grant the vehicle unlimited firepower, but those don't really cost all that much these days. A happy side effect is that it allows you to convert your tank to electric and get really great acceleration as it's now an electric vehicle and so quiet too! You can and should of course augment that main gun with light rail guns like the NG202 as your cupola and coaxial guns. 4000' with 1d4*10 (25 average) and the ability to carry a couple of ammo drums for each gun, or just sacrifice the range a little bit more and go with either plasma or particle beams to reduce average running costs. (I think you should keep at least one rail gun or kinetic energy type weapon on the tank for the energy immune monsters out there...) This reduces overall costs for your army, as they can practice live fire exercises more often and at less expense, range from home base becomes a food train (and some rail gun ammo too of course) but you don't have to run fuel all over the place, however you wind up making the stuff. (bio-deisel or gasification are the most likely imo) You can always work out a deal with Triax for some nuclear reactors, maybe getting them for 250k each, including shipping, (for ones powerful enough to run a tank and several energy weapons near constantly with a decent life expectancy).

Ok, so your 200k tank now adds a 250k nuclear engine to it, swap the main gun for something energy thats decent for maybe 100k, add a railgun for 70k as your coaxial, and an NG-P7 as your cupola for another 20k and you've only spent 640k so far. Add in those same TW enhancements (per my reading of the rue which may be in error) and you're up to 990,300 cr. including a 200 PPE storage capacity so that anyone can use the magic features of the tank, nearly all day long.

Sure, the tank is now 5 times more expensive, but it's a lot more combat survivable, much better ability to dish out damage and still do so at respectable ranges, plenty of fire power options (depending on how you arm it). Of course, it's still a gropo and quite slow and has poor maneuverability...

I still think that the Scarab makes a better platform to start with...

[ShadowLogan]

@torjones
The M1A3 MBT in Merc Ops carries 80 rounds, with a 1/2 & 1/2 mix of AP (1d4x10) and HE (6d6), PLUS 6 smoke shells.

Personally I'd replace the .50cal coaxial machinegun w/an energy weapon before trading the 120mm cannon for a beam weapon as the shell based weapons offer more variety in how you can engage a target. I would consider an upgrade for the 120mm to either a 155mm (taken from a GAW-155/198) or a Glitterboy Boom Gun (the mass of the tanks is many times the GB, so it likely will not need the stabilizers the GB suit does) as they offer greater damage potential and depending on how one treats the range the 155 may be even more attractive than a GB.

[torjones]

@torjones
The M1A3 MBT in Merc Ops carries 80 rounds, with a 1/2 & 1/2 mix of AP (1d4x10) and HE (6d6), PLUS 6 smoke shells.

Personally I'd replace the .50cal coaxial machinegun w/an energy weapon before trading the 120mm cannon for a beam weapon as the shell based weapons offer more variety in how you can engage a target. I would consider an upgrade for the 120mm to either a 155mm (taken from a GAW-155/198) or a Glitterboy Boom Gun (the mass of the tanks is many times the GB, so it likely will not need the stabilizers the GB suit does) as they offer greater damage potential and depending on how one treats the range the 155 may be even more attractive than a GB.

Good catch. Sorry I missed that.

I can also see replacing the 120mm main gun with a boomgun. 3 credits per shot is a lot easier to deal with than 800. I do like the idea of the TW shells, I just don't find it very cost effective. 800 credits for either HE or AP shells, with the TW shells being more expensive still (previously listed prices do not apparently take into account the cost of the shell being modified)

[Slight001]

@torjones
The M1A3 MBT in Merc Ops carries 80 rounds, with a 1/2 & 1/2 mix of AP (1d4x10) and HE (6d6), PLUS 6 smoke shells.

Personally I'd replace the .50cal coaxial machinegun w/an energy weapon before trading the 120mm cannon for a beam weapon as the shell based weapons offer more variety in how you can engage a target. I would consider an upgrade for the 120mm to either a 155mm (taken from a GAW-155/198) or a Glitterboy Boom Gun (the mass of the tanks is many times the GB, so it likely will not need the stabilizers the GB suit does) as they offer greater damage potential and depending on how one treats the range the 155 may be even more attractive than a GB.

Good catch. Sorry I missed that.

I can also see replacing the 120mm main gun with a boomgun. 3 credits per shot is a lot easier to deal with than 800. I do like the idea of the TW shells, I just don't find it very cost effective. 800 credits for either HE or AP shells, with the TW shells being more expensive still (previously listed prices do not apparently take into account the cost of the shell being modified)

I don't see any reason that a TW couldn't create custom ammo for a boom gun...

[torjones]

I can also see replacing the 120mm main gun with a boomgun. 3 credits per shot is a lot easier to deal with than 800. I do like the idea of the TW shells, I just don't find it very cost effective. 800 credits for either HE or AP shells, with the TW shells being more expensive still (previously listed prices do not apparently take into account the cost of the shell being modified)

I don't see any reason that a TW couldn't create custom ammo for a boom gun...

In general I agree, but where inside that tightly packed mass of 200 flechettes are you going to cram the carats of gems and 'other techno-wizardry paraphernalia' in that tightly packed shotgun shell like package? If it was a slug, that would be one thing, you could hollow it out or modify it to include the magical components, but I just don't see it with the standard boomgun round.

[Slight001]

I can also see replacing the 120mm main gun with a boomgun. 3 credits per shot is a lot easier to deal with than 800. I do like the idea of the TW shells, I just don't find it very cost effective. 800 credits for either HE or AP shells, with the TW shells being more expensive still (previously listed prices do not apparently take into account the cost of the shell being modified)

I don't see any reason that a TW couldn't create custom ammo for a boom gun...

In general I agree, but where inside that tightly packed mass of 200 flechettes are you going to cram the carats of gems and 'other techno-wizardry paraphernalia' in that tightly packed shotgun shell like package? If it was a slug, that would be one thing, you could hollow it out or modify it to include the magical components, but I just don't see it with the standard boomgun round.

that's just it. I'd rule it as a slug with the same external dimensions and weight... performance that might vary.

[taalismn]

[

It is clear the point of this exercise was lost on you. You are mistaking rolls in combat, and now using juicers. Juicers and PA belong to a different sub set of military units..)

Actually, I think Subjugator's argument was a brilliant illustration of how the introduction of new technologies alters previous assumptions about the battlefield....Just as repeating rifles, machine guns, and motorized vehicles did away with the 'wall of steel and musketry' formations(with horse cavalry flankers) previously thought THE epitome of land military power, the introduction of superhumans onto the battlefield makes tanks expensive armored meatcans, while the same technowizardry that might augment the tanks, also gives new life to tank-KILLERS like helicopters, making them more economically feasible to field in numbers against those same tanks. The only problem I'd see with trading copters for tanks more cheaply even combat loss-wise, is that 'copter pilots are harder to train and field than tank jockeys.

I'd almost see a return to the old interim-World War concepts of multi-turret landship tanks mounting all-around arcs of anti-personnel weapons, plus robotic gunnery to give faster and more accurate attacks, but that only drives up the cost of the tank, such that if you're going that route, you may as well build a freakin' BOLO with more firepower than a Cold War-era Soviet cruiser, that can crush EVERYTHING in its path.

[Subjugator]

Hm...missile killer tanks like juicer killer armor. I like this idea!

[ShadowLogan]

In general I agree, but where inside that tightly packed mass of 200 flechettes are you going to cram the carats of gems and 'other techno-wizardry paraphernalia' in that tightly packed shotgun shell like package? If it was a slug, that would be one thing, you could hollow it out or modify it to include the magical components, but I just don't see it with the standard boomgun round.

Who says that you have to keep those 200 flechettes inside the shell-casing? Depending on the desired TW effect you may be able to do away with them entirely or reduce the number carried w/o any noticeable effect. BG round normally does 3d6x10 MD, so each flechettes does an average of <1 MD assuming they all hit (which is unlikely) and do non critical max damage (avoids the x2 dmg modifier).

[quote='taalismn"]the introduction of superhumans onto the battlefield makes tanks expensive armored meatcans, while the same technowizardry that might augment the tanks, also gives new life to tank-KILLERS like helicopters, making them more economically feasible to field in numbers against those same tanks. The only problem I'd see with trading copters for tanks more cheaply even combat loss-wise, is that 'copter pilots are harder to train and field than tank jockeys.[/quote]
I agree that the introduction of new technologies will result in evolution of hardware to adapt to continue to stay relevant or fade away into history. So I guess the question is if the tank/armored vehicles can continue to evolve to stay relevant. The answer is yes I would think.

There are things that the armored vehicle (tanks, APCs, SPA) and their kin (towed artillery like Howitzers) can do that PA and the super soldiers can't do as effectively. Those vehicles can potentially carry larger weapons, more numerous weapons, and weapons with greater payload. Now at a game stat level (bonuses, damage give/take), the advantages aren't as noticeable and do skew toward the SS/PA who will also require support of various kinds to remain in the field which is most effectively done with vehicles.

Those shells the armored vehicles use are more cost effective (all values are from Merc Ops). Consider that the M1A3 costs between 800-2600credits for its 120mm shell with damage comparable to a mini-missile that costs 800-2000credits, but with greater range. So the 105mm vs Mini-missile performance, you actually get a benefit for the extra cost in terms of range (an extra 200m of effective range, which carries over more to shooting beyond effective range). Now when you look at the 105/155mm howitzer's GAW markets, they are capable of firing beyond SRM range, but not enough to qualify for MRM, for comparable damages as SRMs (for the 155, 105 is Mini/old-srm) cost for the SRM is 2000-4000credits. The shells offer far more in terms of range than missiles. Granted missiles can be volleyed for greater damage, but if you are looking for sustained barrages missiles just aren't as cost effective.

[torjones]

I'd almost see a return to the old interim-World War concepts of multi-turret landship tanks mounting all-around arcs of anti-personnel weapons, plus robotic gunnery to give faster and more accurate attacks, but that only drives up the cost of the tank, such that if you're going that route, you may as well build a freakin' BOLO with more firepower than a Cold War-era Soviet cruiser, that can crush EVERYTHING in its path.

I disagree, I think we've already got the multi-turret landship tanks... I mean that even some of the CS Bots and tanks have multiple gunners, sometimes as many as 6 gunners, IIRC. I think the most gunners I've seen in something that isn't considered a mobile fortress is the Galapagos from SA2 with 8 gunners.

[taalismn]

[I agree that the introduction of new technologies will result in evolution of hardware to adapt to continue to stay relevant or fade away into history. So I guess the question is if the tank/armored vehicles can continue to evolve to stay relevant. The answer is yes I would think.

There are things that the armored vehicle (tanks, APCs, SPA) and their kin (towed artillery like Howitzers) can do that PA and the super soldiers can't do as effectively. Those vehicles can potentially carry larger weapons, more numerous weapons, and weapons with greater payload. Now at a game stat level (bonuses, damage give/take), the advantages aren't as noticeable and do skew toward the SS/PA who will also require support of various kinds to remain in the field which is most effectively done with vehicles..

Tanks can also be wrapped around larger powerplants(and in Rifts, nuclear powerplants are RIDICULOUSLY efficient), so you can get the juice to carry lots of armor FAST....lots of armor for when you're a brick, and speed for when being a stationary brick is not advisable.

[Blue_Lion]

This is getting way off topic now. Basically should be dead no new Ideas for tanks have been introduced.

there is a thread already to talk about rolls and technology.

[Killer Cyborg]

Make the tank out of wood.
Include Ironwood and Create Wood as TW features, to not only turn the wooden tank into a MDC structure, but also to allow the tank to self-repair for PPE.

[Blue_Lion]

Make the tank out of wood.
Include Ironwood and Create Wood as TW features, to not only turn the wooden tank into a MDC structure, but also to allow the tank to self-repair for PPE.

seams like it could also expand or turn into a small fortes. How would you arm your wood tank?

[Killer Cyborg]

Make the tank out of wood.
Include Ironwood and Create Wood as TW features, to not only turn the wooden tank into a MDC structure, but also to allow the tank to self-repair for PPE.

seams like it could also expand or turn into a small fortes. How would you arm your wood tank?

A main cannon that uses Shockwave for damage (1d4/level MD) and effects (knockdown, loss of attacks, etc.), along with Distant Voice for range (2000' per caster level).
Get each at 10th level, and it'd do 1d4x10 MD to a 100' radius, at 20,000' away.


Edit:
And yeah, these concepts would be good for forts, pillboxes, etc.

[Killer Cyborg]

A mounted normal laser rifle would also be good, for lesser threats.

[torjones]

Make the tank out of wood.
Include Ironwood and Create Wood as TW features, to not only turn the wooden tank into a MDC structure, but also to allow the tank to self-repair for PPE.

So, Kinda like the Ablative Armor concept from the final episode of Voyager? I like it

[torjones]

Make the tank out of wood.
Include Ironwood and Create Wood as TW features, to not only turn the wooden tank into a MDC structure, but also to allow the tank to self-repair for PPE.

seams like it could also expand or turn into a small fortes. How would you arm your wood tank?

I don't know about arming it, but I know how I'd attack it!

FLAME THROWER!!!

[Killer Cyborg]

Make the tank out of wood.
Include Ironwood and Create Wood as TW features, to not only turn the wooden tank into a MDC structure, but also to allow the tank to self-repair for PPE.

seams like it could also expand or turn into a small fortes. How would you arm your wood tank?

I don't know about arming it, but I know how I'd attack it!

FLAME THROWER!!!

I think the question has come up before about "can you burn MDC wood with normal fire?"
One argument was that since wood doesn't burn hot enough to inflict mega-damage, a fire from MDC wood would go out.