How would you build a magical tank corps.

[taalismn]

Better, deeper, Glitterboy-style laser pylons for anchoring the tank in place(when being on the move isn't an issue)...so it DOESN'T get flipped over, and at the mercy of PBI or big things with teeth.

[Slight001]

Why the obsession with tanks? slight injection of real world physics but tanks are heavy objects... their treads only partially displace that load. That tends to limit the range of terrain that one can operate on.

Note I'm not picking on tanks. large robots and generally anyone with a high density and generally low physical foot print get my ire.

[taalismn]

[
I think the question has come up before about "can you burn MDC wood with normal fire?"
One argument was that since wood doesn't burn hot enough to inflict mega-damage, a fire from MDC wood would go out.

Which is why the professional combat arsonist/pyromaniac is going to use the MD napalm from Wellington Industries. The stuff that's apparently liquid thermite.

Of course, it might take some time if the tank is constructed from imported Venusian Oak, given that the trees' native environment has a balmy temperature of 872 degrees F.

[Killer Cyborg]

[
I think the question has come up before about "can you burn MDC wood with normal fire?"
One argument was that since wood doesn't burn hot enough to inflict mega-damage, a fire from MDC wood would go out.

Which is why the professional combat arsonist/pyromaniac is going to use the MD napalm from Wellington Industries. The stuff that's apparently liquid thermite.

Of course, it might take some time if the tank is constructed from imported Venusian Oak, given that the trees' native environment has a balmy temperature of 872 degrees F.

Add "Invulnerability" to the tank, and the problem is taken care of in any case.

[Jerell]

I like tanks. They can be fun in a Rifts game too. I had a tank commander (TC) in a North American merc campaign, with another PC as gunner, and an NPC driver (tank had an auto-loader). The group also had a power armor pilot with some sort of aerial PA and a psi-slinger and a werewolf as scouts with motorcycles. The campaign took place around the Lone Star area. In the desert, or small towns we owned banditos. The towns would take some scouting before the mission, but with a spotter in a good position and the right terrain, you can take out enemies at range (hopefully beyond their range if their foot sloggers), before they even know what hit them. The cannon with HEAT or even MD HE can be useful for leveling squads that are bunched up or hiding in cover. Getting hit with say a 120mm or 150mm HE tends to send crunchies flying, and knock back smaller PAs. Can also be used to reduce building to rubble efficiently. We also had zimmerit anti-magnetic mine paste, and hot smoke dischargers fitted in case concealment was called for. Man, I loved that tank... Probably the funnest Rifts campaign I had the chance to be a player in.

We put a few additional sensors and made sure we had powerful radios and in effect turned the tank into a command vehicle. My TC character spent most of the time coordinating the squad, keeping an eye on the big picture, and prioritizing targets, even so it was a hell of a fun campaign. After having ran in that campaign, I do think there can be a benefit to having a commander keeping track of a squad, tactical situation, not totally concentrating on just shooting. Our merc company sometimes had support for our squad in the way of PA troops in APCs and SP rocket/missile artillery. We used our aerial PA for scouting or CAS, combined arms when we could bring them to bear with coordination or direction, and surprise was devastating in most of our games. First off, with a tank, you want to be on the attack. Embrace the blitzkrieg spirit. I always found being on the offense, to be the best defense for the tank, maneuver, shoot, run-over dismounts, or get in position and act as a kind of SP artillery. The tank can be versatile and effective in rifts given the right conditions, and can make an interesting firing platform for a psi-slinger.

At one point in time, we did add a TW force field somewhere around the Colorado Baronies, I found that an excellent addition. I would highly recommend that if you're going with TW upgraded tanks.

As to how I would build a TW tank corps? Mostly tech with a few TW enhancements works for me. I would focus a lot on training the TCs and coordination with other arms like INF, ART and CAS. Battle group commanders should be of the highest possible caliber (pun), and every soldier should understand their role. Even if their equipment is inferior, better training, leadership, teamwork, initiative and morale can carry the day. Combined arms lightning war, in short. Good troop leading procedures down to the vehicle commander level. Force concentration at the decisive point. I would make sure the armor is well supported if it's the main maneuver element, an engineering section would probably be called for too help clear or reinforce terrain ahead of lanes of attack or egress. Panzers are great, but most effective as a part of a diverse battle group. The operations (planning section) section needs to know what they're doing too.

[ShadowLogan]

Tanks can also be wrapped around larger powerplants(and in Rifts, nuclear powerplants are RIDICULOUSLY efficient), so you can get the juice to carry lots of armor FAST....lots of armor for when you're a brick, and speed for when being a stationary brick is not advisable.

Oh I agree there are a variety of things that give the larger vehicles advantages over the smaller.

Make the tank out of wood.
Include Ironwood and Create Wood as TW features, to not only turn the wooden tank into a MDC structure, but also to allow the tank to self-repair for PPE.

I was recently thinking of some TW finding Da Vinci's tank design and trying to producing it.

I don't know about arming it, but I know how I'd attack it!

FLAME THROWER!!!

And there are a variety of TW options that could be included that nullify the value of the flame thrower like "Impervious to Fire".

[Killer Cyborg]

Build a tank out of SDC materials, then build in the spell Enchant Weapon, turning the tank into a magical weapon that does MD on a ram (or with treads), and that has hundreds (or thousands) of MDC.

For the main gun, use Power Weapon + Power Bolt, to inflict 1d6x10+40 MD at 2,600' away.

[Shark_Force]

one thing I will say, having arms on a tank makes some sense.

certainly more sense than actually building a bipedal robot... for all that people have suggested legged robots can go more places than a tank, I suspect it has more to do with them thinking of a human body which has a lot fewer problems due to weight than a gigantic humanoid form would have. you're not going to be climbing too many cliffs when you're trying to put 30 tons of steel balanced on a handhold or foothold suitable for a 160 lb human.

[Blue_Lion]

Why the obsession with tanks? slight injection of real world physics but tanks are heavy objects... their treads only partially displace that load. That tends to limit the range of terrain that one can operate on.

Note I'm not picking on tanks. large robots and generally anyone with a high density and generally low physical foot print get my ire.

Not all rifts tanks are tracked. They also have hover tanks.

[Blue_Lion]

Better, deeper, Glitterboy-style laser pylons for anchoring the tank in place(when being on the move isn't an issue)...so it DOESN'T get flipped over, and at the mercy of PBI or big things with teeth.

Not sure what can flip a main battle tank they tend to way several tons (Likely over 30) An impact with that force to flip that pylons might not be able to stop it.

[taalismn]

one thing I will say, having arms on a tank makes some sense.

certainly more sense than actually building a bipedal robot... for all that people have suggested legged robots can go more places than a tank, I suspect it has more to do with them thinking of a human body which has a lot fewer problems due to weight than a gigantic humanoid form would have. you're not going to be climbing too many cliffs when you're trying to put 30 tons of steel balanced on a handhold or foothold suitable for a 160 lb human.

I find the arms more likely in engineering vehicles. In fact, the Soviets had engineering vehicles(based on MBTs) that had remote-control cranes and log-hoist-style armatures, run by an operator safely housed inside the NBC-shielded tank, for clearing debris.

[Shark_Force]

one thing I will say, having arms on a tank makes some sense.

certainly more sense than actually building a bipedal robot... for all that people have suggested legged robots can go more places than a tank, I suspect it has more to do with them thinking of a human body which has a lot fewer problems due to weight than a gigantic humanoid form would have. you're not going to be climbing too many cliffs when you're trying to put 30 tons of steel balanced on a handhold or foothold suitable for a 160 lb human.

I find the arms more likely in engineering vehicles. In fact, the Soviets had engineering vehicles(based on MBTs) that had remote-control cranes and log-hoist-style armatures, run by an operator safely housed inside the NBC-shielded tank, for clearing debris.

that makes sense today.

but today there aren't 20 foot tall monsters trying to punch you with the force of a modern day tank cannon.

as someone pointed out, having arms is a major advantage against such an enemy, because you can parry their attacks.

as an added benefit, the arms will allow each of your gunners more autonomy if you presume they can each control a gun mounted on those arms. plus, it means that each tank can in fact somewhat double as an engineering vehicle with relative ease, as you point out

[torjones]

Build a tank out of SDC materials, then build in the spell Enchant Weapon, turning the tank into a magical weapon that does MD on a ram (or with treads), and that has hundreds (or thousands) of MDC.

For the main gun, use Power Weapon + Power Bolt, to inflict 1d6x10+40 MD at 2,600' away.

Power weapon can not be used on ranged weapons according to the note at the end of the spell description in the book of magic.

Would other GMs allow this combo in a TW Cannon? Don't think I would.

[Killer Cyborg]

Build a tank out of SDC materials, then build in the spell Enchant Weapon, turning the tank into a magical weapon that does MD on a ram (or with treads), and that has hundreds (or thousands) of MDC.

For the main gun, use Power Weapon + Power Bolt, to inflict 1d6x10+40 MD at 2,600' away.

Power weapon can not be used on ranged weapons according to the note at the end of the spell description in the book of magic.

Would other GMs allow this combo in a TW Cannon? Don't think I would.

There's probably some GM out there who'll allow anything.
That's the problem with the TW creation rules: they allow spells to break restrictions, and the only thing keeping things in check is a good GM.

But there isn't a GM here, since we're not gaming, so...

[ShadowLogan]

one thing I will say, having arms on a tank makes some sense.

certainly more sense than actually building a bipedal robot... for all that people have suggested legged robots can go more places than a tank, I suspect it has more to do with them thinking of a human body which has a lot fewer problems due to weight than a gigantic humanoid form would have. you're not going to be climbing too many cliffs when you're trying to put 30 tons of steel balanced on a handhold or foothold suitable for a 160 lb human.

Yeah, arms on tanks (and other vehicles) can make sense depending on what one wants the vehicle to be able to do. There are certainly potential advantages and disadvantages to including them in a vehicle design though.

Power weapon can not be used on ranged weapons according to the note at the end of the spell description in the book of magic.

Would other GMs allow this combo in a TW Cannon? Don't think I would.

There is another example of a spell that can not be cast on TW melee weapons (Speed Weapon), but it doesn't prevent it from being included in any TW spell chain. Power Weapon alone might not work on a ranged weapon, but Power Weapon working with another Spell(s) in a specific chain can work (the trick is getting the right chain). Otherwise TW Flaming Swords couldn't work as they are supposed to based on the individual spells involved, its the spells working together that allows them to create the blade.

Better, deeper, Glitterboy-style laser pylons for anchoring the tank in place(when being on the move isn't an issue)...so it DOESN'T get flipped over, and at the mercy of PBI or big things with teeth.

Tanks have a mass of what 30+ tons someone said (majority of "tanks" in Rifts that I am aware of are over 30tons). That means at 2,000lbs per US Short Ton results in 60,000lbs of weight for a 30ton vehicle. It would take a SN PS of at least 1,200 (divide by 50lbs per SN PS point per RUE results in) or Giant Robotic PS would be 600 (divide by 100lbs per Giant Robot PS point per RUE results in) or normal Robot PS would x2 SN PS to carry. Now that is carry, and lift is x2 what you can carry so 1/2 these values to just lift (though text also makes it clear that Robot PS applies to both LIFT AND CARRY at the same time).

So it seems unlikely something is going to just flip a tank over by raw strength from a single attacker (multiples yes, but at that point sheer numbers would overwhelm the tank even w/o the pylons to prevent it) unless they get some serious leverage (at which point pylons might not be enough), And Mystic Fulcrum only increases lift by 50% and would still require unrealizable PS values for a single attacker, to use Featherlight spell would require a level of 150 if cast on just a single person (not sure if multiple casting would even stack in this case). I'd question if a creature could even body block a tank onto its side/back given the sheer mass involved here given its low center of gravity unless they had some serious leverage (or the platform was already unbalanced).

[Subjugator]

I'm curious: how many people are in this hypothetical medium sized kingdom?

[torjones]

There's probably some GM out there who'll allow anything.
That's the problem with the TW creation rules: they allow spells to break restrictions, and the only thing keeping things in check is a good GM.
But there isn't a GM here, since we're not gaming, so...

Or you can try suggesting something that is more likely to be approved by a GM.
Power Bolt + Ballistic Fire + Mystic Portal = 3d6x10+72, 2700' range (at a 6th caster level). Heck, I'd even allow this in mid-level games.

Just an opinion... YMMV
(edit: removed speed weapon as it can't be uned on TW weapons)

[torjones]

Power weapon can not be used on ranged weapons according to the note at the end of the spell description in the book of magic.

Would other GMs allow this combo in a TW Cannon? Don't think I would.

There is another example of a spell that can not be cast on TW melee weapons (Speed Weapon), but it doesn't prevent it from being included in any TW spell chain. Power Weapon alone might not work on a ranged weapon, but Power Weapon working with another Spell(s) in a specific chain can work (the trick is getting the right chain). Otherwise TW Flaming Swords couldn't work as they are supposed to based on the individual spells involved, its the spells working together that allows them to create the blade.

Power Weapon isn't one of the spells for TW Flaming Swords. The spells required are fire bolt and circle of flame.

[Killer Cyborg]

There's probably some GM out there who'll allow anything.
That's the problem with the TW creation rules: they allow spells to break restrictions, and the only thing keeping things in check is a good GM.
But there isn't a GM here, since we're not gaming, so...

[color=#008000]
Or you can try suggesting something that is more likely to be approved by a GM.

Again, there is no GM in this case.
If you want to start arguing about relative likelihoods of which TW device would be more popular with GMs... Well, I'd think that was off topic, although I suppose that's really to the OP.

[Slight001]

(edit: removed speed weapon as it can't be uned on TW weapons)
[/color]

The wording on the spell is that it can't be used on magic weapons (which includes existing TW weapons) however it doesn't say it can't be used in a TW creation. The Battlefury Blade TW sword is a good example.

[Killer Cyborg]

(edit: removed speed weapon as it can't be uned on TW weapons)
[/color]

The wording on the spell is that it can't be used on magic weapons (which includes existing TW weapons) however it doesn't say it can't be used in a TW creation. The Battlefury Blade TW sword is a good example.

Yup.
The very same book that gave us the spell Speed Weapon--and the disclaimer that it doesn't work on magic weapons--also gave us a Magic TW weapon that uses the spell.

[torjones]

There's probably some GM out there who'll allow anything.
That's the problem with the TW creation rules: they allow spells to break restrictions, and the only thing keeping things in check is a good GM.
But there isn't a GM here, since we're not gaming, so...

Or you can try suggesting something that is more likely to be approved by a GM.

Again, there is no GM in this case.
If you want to start arguing about relative likelihoods of which TW device would be more popular with GMs... Well, I'd think that was off topic, although I suppose that's really to the OP.

I never said there was a GM here in this discussion. I'm saying that proposing something that you are fairly certain wouldn't be allowed in any game is akin to suggesting that players build a submarine with screen doors for hatches. Nobody would do it because it would never get approval. Isn't it more useful for everyone, including yourself, to post that which is likely to be used?

I'm not really interested in arguing the relative likelihood of any particular TW device, I was making a suggestion that we make useful posts, not posts we know have very little likelihood of being useful to others.

All that aside, it was only a suggestion, and clearly you don't care for my suggestion.

[torjones]

(edit: removed speed weapon as it can't be uned on TW weapons)

The wording on the spell is that it can't be used on magic weapons (which includes existing TW weapons) however it doesn't say it can't be used in a TW creation. The Battlefury Blade TW sword is a good example.

That is a logical argument with the example cited...

Even using that argument though, I'm not so sure about Power Weapon because of the nature of the spell seems to target melee weapons only. Something like Enchant Weapon, though while a ritual, at least will work on ranged weapon ammunition, making it more in keeping with the intent of using Power Weapon in the first place to boost the Power Bolt spell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that part of the Art of making TW weapons? (there are certainly insufficient rules to make it a science...)

[ShadowLogan]

@Blue_Lion
Are we resticted to TWdry for augmenting the tank or can we use Diabolist (Wards) and Circle Magic from Palladium Fantasy setting and/or other magics w/o invoking TWdry to beef up the tanks abilities? IIRC Stormspire's CEO/founder knows Circle Magic and has is Tower protected by it (per FoM) allowing it to teleport away from attack.

Power Weapon isn't one of the spells for TW Flaming Swords. The spells required are fire bolt and circle of flame.

I agree Power Weapon is not part of the TW Flaming Sword, and you left out Impervious to Fire. That is not why I brought up the TW Flaming Sword though. I brought it up as an example (another actually) that shows spells in a TW spell chain do not obey the restrictions placed on the individual spells when cast alone. Circle of Flame alters the behavior of the Fire Bolt spell in terms of duration, CoF would also appears to be responsible for shaping it into a blade structure. Firebolt could also be seen as allowing the CoF to do M.D., as it normally does S.D damage, etc.

Power Weapon working ALONE would not work on ranged weapons (I haven't seen anyone argue otherwise), but that limitation does not apply when it is part of a TW spell chain. As MULTIPLE spells interacting together produce results that are not suggestive of the individual spells. That is what we see in the TW Flaming Sword and the TW Battle Fury Blade (Speed Weapon).

And RUE's guidelines DO allow spells to be morphed as a result of TWdry. Recall the examples on pg129, Carpet of Adhesion trades sticky power for duration, Super Human Strength is used to boost an engines power (only cast on Self or "others", technology is omitted but others makes it clear I think), or Super human speed increases speed and maneuverability (same restrictions as SHS). So normal restrictions for spells as invocations do not apply when used in TWdry since there is nothing about the regular spell that allows the caster to control the stickiness of the CoA, or the Superhuman feats to effect machines naturally.

That said, you could argue that the spell chain is incomplete or argue for additional requirements for the reason you cited to get past the limitation. Remember that one can throw a melee weapon turning it into a ranged weapon and the Spell discription does not prevent that. So you may need a suitable construct to "throw", either physical or magically generated, and or more spells in the chain to get the desired outcome. But nothing should prevent it from being used in a TW ranged weapon outright, it just requires the correct support w/n the device.

[Killer Cyborg]

(edit: removed speed weapon as it can't be uned on TW weapons)

The wording on the spell is that it can't be used on magic weapons (which includes existing TW weapons) however it doesn't say it can't be used in a TW creation. The Battlefury Blade TW sword is a good example.

[color=#008000]
That is a logical argument with the example cited...

Even using that argument though, I'm not so sure about Power Weapon because of the nature of the spell seems to target melee weapons only.

The nature of Speed Weapon seems to target non-magical weapons only.
If Speed Weapon can work around its own nature, why not other spells?

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not really interested in arguing the relative likelihood of any particular TW device,
[/color]

Good.

[torjones]

Power Weapon isn't one of the spells for TW Flaming Swords. The spells required are fire bolt and circle of flame.

I agree Power Weapon is not part of the TW Flaming Sword, and you left out Impervious to Fire.

Sorry, I got my list of required spells from the book of magic. I don't often look at RUE first, unless I have specific reason to do so. looks like I'm going to have to change that habit... Good points otherwise...

[Killer Cyborg]

Power Weapon isn't one of the spells for TW Flaming Swords. The spells required are fire bolt and circle of flame.

I agree Power Weapon is not part of the TW Flaming Sword, and you left out Impervious to Fire.

Sorry, I got my list of required spells from the book of magic. I don't often look at RUE first, unless I have specific reason to do so. looks like I'm going to have to change that habit... Good points otherwise...

I believe that his overall point was that TW Flaming Swords use Fire Bolt and Circle of Flame in radically different ways than the spells actually work.
The sword isn't a circle, and it's not a bolt. It's a sword-shaped gout of flame that does different damage than either of those spells.
Because spells can work differently in TW devices than they do when they're just cast.