Portable magic circles?

[Hotrod]

Here's my off-the-wall idea for today:

Summoners are so stationary and take so long to work their magic that they're often bypassed for other magic classes. What if a summoner were to try to circumvent these problems?

Imagine a summoner who's taken a bunch of skills that allow him to make carpets. Those look innocuous enough riding around in a cart, but they're covered with a bunch of prepared circles (ingredients are sealed in with glue or something). When he needs a particular circle, he pulls it out, unrolls it, adds a final, portable ingredient, and voila! He's got a working circle in about 30 seconds.

Granted, this requires a wagon. Some sort of dimensional pocket might do the job better. Thoughts?

[Natasha]

Other than size restrictions of the rugs, no problem off the top of my head if you can affix components and carry the ones you cannot.

[Hotrod]

Hey, you could pitch a tent over a protection-circle rug so you could sleep easier.

[arouetta]

Cloth bolts woven from linen or wool could also do. It may not be as durable, but weight wise it would be more portable and may even be easier to spread. Plus, for larger circles, two bolts could be sewn together, side by side.

Many of the protection circles and some of the summoning circles either say metal or any substance, you could argue that metallic thread would have just as high of concentration of metal as mixing metallic dust with glue (which the book allows), and any substance could be normal thread woven directly into the pattern of the cloth.

Since the circle has to be 50% destroyed or deliberately deactivated, they could be activated at ley line nexuses (especially during celestial events), and then the placement of components and reactivation cost (excluding power circles, it's either 40 PPE or 60 PPE) is all that is needed to be worried about in the field.

The only skills needed would be a house ruling of Weaving, Sewing from the book, and access to a loom. And being friends with a sheepherder would help.

Edit: And to avoid a wagon, being friends with a Wizard who knows Dimensional Pocket would really help.

[victor15065]

My mage has power power circle on a shield as a diablost and sommoner at 6 the LVL it is perminant and an indestructible shield also

[zyanitevp]

My players have some circles on their boat that benefit them greatly.

[victor15065]

Could you make those cloth circles perminant also?

[Hotrod]

Could you make those cloth circles perminant also?

I don't see why not. The permanence ward must be carved, so that part won't be flexible, but the rest of the circle could be. It might depend on the specific requirements of the circle, though.

[Library Ogre]

I am generally against movable circles on flexible surfaces; in the bed of a wagon or deck of a boat, sure, but I think it would take a fair degree of fast talking to agree to a woven circle, unless it was the summoner doing the weaving. The chance of error is pretty great, and a circle deactivated for transport wouldn't have the resistance to wear that an activated circle does.

Heavens help you if there are mice... or moths. Or a Wall of Fire.

[Lukterran]

I am generally against movable circles on flexible surfaces; in the bed of a wagon or deck of a boat, sure, but I think it would take a fair degree of fast talking to agree to a woven circle, unless it was the summoner doing the weaving. The chance of error is pretty great, and a circle deactivated for transport wouldn't have the resistance to wear that an activated circle does.

Heavens help you if there are mice... or moths. Or a Wall of Fire.

I love playing summoners. Even so I would rule against circles being woven into cloth. There is too many holes and material is too inconsistent for the magic too work.

This just opens up too many abilities to abuse the rules and the intent of the way circle magic is supposed to be used.

[Starmage21]

Inscribe them on thin leather mats instead. Just make sure its big enough to stand in!

[Lukterran]

Inscribe them on thin leather mats instead. Just make sure its big enough to stand in!

Well crap while you are at it just make it a lot easier to carry around and draw it on giant sheets of parchment.

Again I don't think circles were meant to be that mobile.

[Starmage21]

They can still end up being pretty mobile. The smallest summoning circle you're going to want to make is going to only have to be big enough that you can stand in 1/4 of it (the protected area). The average d00d taking up about 3 square feet, making the circle area 12 feet. From there you can work backwards and get that the circle has to be about 4 feet wide. You can fit that A LOT of places. If you decide to make a portable platform for your circle that is 4ft and made of pine 2x4's nailed together, it'd weigh about 80 lbs, and you can make a standable platform 4ft wide on either side a LOT lighter than that. Put racks on the wagon to hold em, and you're good to go at nearly a moment's notice.

[victor15065]

I suppose that would end up unbalancing the game

[Klaus027]

Unbalanced, maybe while traveling. But try and get that wagon to go down into a cavern, cave or dungeon. And cities aren't the most convenient place to drag a wagon around, either. Traffic jams are not a modern invention. And who guards the magic radiating wagon while the adventurers are sleeping, adventuring, accepting quests, or training?

And not using the create circle skill regularly could have GM induced negatives. Longer draw times when needing to draw a circle (from lack of practice), rabbit glue being dried up when needed. Some materials could have been stolen without being noticed (gold powder or wire is still gold to a thief), etc.

I'm not saying a GM should punish the summoner for being creative (my summoner had a wagon and some pre-made circles for travel). I just think there are normal repercussions for not using skills or always using shortcuts.

I don't believe an activated circle could be rolled up. (it must be a close approximation of a circle to be active, and rolling would destroy that).

A deactivated circle would than be (as stated earlier) subject to normal rug, cloth, paper damage from being rolled, unrolled, stepped on while on rocks, sticks, twigs, etc.

But by the rules, it appears these should be possible to do.

[eliakon]

They can still end up being pretty mobile. The smallest summoning circle you're going to want to make is going to only have to be big enough that you can stand in 1/4 of it (the protected area). The average d00d taking up about 3 square feet, making the circle area 12 feet. From there you can work backwards and get that the circle has to be about 4 feet wide. You can fit that A LOT of places. If you decide to make a portable platform for your circle that is 4ft and made of pine 2x4's nailed together, it'd weigh about 80 lbs, and you can make a standable platform 4ft wide on either side a LOT lighter than that. Put racks on the wagon to hold em, and you're good to go at nearly a moment's notice.

It will still take time to put the components in place, and then since the components were removed, you have to re-energize the circle with PPE (half cost but still....)
And don't forget things like theft, or explaining the circles to the guards searching your wagon (Summoning is supposed to have a bad rap and be illegal in many places), and if its a power circle then you have problems with rivals that might want to 'take a little look' so they can decipher the circle.....

[FreelancerMar]

One must also remember that once the circle has been used once, all of the ingrediates are destroyed.

[eliakon]

One must also remember that once the circle has been used once, all of the ingrediates are destroyed.

That's wards. Circles are explicitly re-usable (other than, presumably, sacrifices)

[kiralon]

Yep, good way to preserve blood, just use it in a circle and it wont go off.
And its the only way to get the blood of an old one that I know of.

[Starmage21]

One must also remember that once the circle has been used once, all of the ingrediates are destroyed.

That's wards. Circles are explicitly re-usable (other than, presumably, sacrifices)

the ingredients are explicitly magically kept fresh. If you kill a hawk for your Summon Elemental Forces circle, there will be a freshly dead hawk laying there for eternity until someone comes by and willfully disturbs it and damages the circle (animals also explicitly will not willingly go near an active circle, so they wont come by and eat your hawk either).

The measures needed for a circle to be damaged have been discussed in another thread, but we have at least one example of 1000 years of muck building up on a circle and it still being active, to the point that the players that pass through the circle without noticing and catch the magical contagion. (Its in one of the adventures).

As far as theft goes, no one can use your circles if they are sealed. No one can enter them you do not permit. If they force their way through the magic barrier, they start taking automatic damage and risk being forced out.

Seriously, build yourself a "circle wagon", that has a rack in it designed to hold platforms that hold circles. Think of the image of a baker's rack, and make it large enough to hold 4x4 or 5x5 foot platforms that have active circles drawn on them.

[Lukterran]

And don't forget things like theft, or explaining the circles to the guards searching your wagon (Summoning is supposed to have a bad rap and be illegal in many places), and if its a power circle then you have problems with rivals that might want to 'take a little look' so they can decipher the circle.....

That is the understatement of the year. Crime and punishment is nothing like modern day. A person found out to be a unholy summoner is not likely to just set in jail cell and await a trail etc and serve time.

No, this is Medieval style justice. If the person that makes deals with demons is more likely to be bond and tortured then burned for their crimes. There will be no trail - other than a mock one. The horrors that people would do to such a person would make Clive Barker squeamish.

[Starmage21]

And don't forget things like theft, or explaining the circles to the guards searching your wagon (Summoning is supposed to have a bad rap and be illegal in many places), and if its a power circle then you have problems with rivals that might want to 'take a little look' so they can decipher the circle.....

That is the understatement of the year. Crime and punishment is nothing like modern day. A person found out to be a unholy summoner is not likely to just set in jail cell and await a trail etc and serve time.

No, this is Medieval style justice. If the person that makes deals with demons is more likely to be bond and tortured then burned for their crimes. There will be no trail - other than a mock one. The horrors that people would do to such a person would make Clive Barker squeamish.

Do we actually have fluff that supports that summoners are more than disliked? I was under the impression that protection circles were a valuable thing and were desired by those that could afford them. Even in a "medieval justice" system, there is a line between mere ostracism and murderous violence.

[Library Ogre]

One must also remember that once the circle has been used once, all of the ingrediates are destroyed.

That's wards. Circles are explicitly re-usable (other than, presumably, sacrifices)

the ingredients are explicitly magically kept fresh. If you kill a hawk for your Summon Elemental Forces circle, there will be a freshly dead hawk laying there for eternity until someone comes by and willfully disturbs it and damages the circle (animals also explicitly will not willingly go near an active circle, so they wont come by and eat your hawk either).

I wouldn't go so far as to preserve the remains of the sacrifice; the rest of the circle, yes, but I think the hawk corpse would naturally decay. It's not part of the circle, only the activation.

It's part of what makes circle deciphering difficult.

[Starmage21]

One must also remember that once the circle has been used once, all of the ingrediates are destroyed.

That's wards. Circles are explicitly re-usable (other than, presumably, sacrifices)

the ingredients are explicitly magically kept fresh. If you kill a hawk for your Summon Elemental Forces circle, there will be a freshly dead hawk laying there for eternity until someone comes by and willfully disturbs it and damages the circle (animals also explicitly will not willingly go near an active circle, so they wont come by and eat your hawk either).

I wouldn't go so far as to preserve the remains of the sacrifice; the rest of the circle, yes, but I think the hawk corpse would naturally decay. It's not part of the circle, only the activation.

It's part of what makes circle deciphering difficult.

So if I have to sacrifice a chicken to activate a circle, there is nothing preventing me then from eating said chicken for dinner now that my circle is active? Man that could be useful. Just think of the Summon Animal applications!

[eliakon]

One must also remember that once the circle has been used once, all of the ingrediates are destroyed.

That's wards. Circles are explicitly re-usable (other than, presumably, sacrifices)

the ingredients are explicitly magically kept fresh. If you kill a hawk for your Summon Elemental Forces circle, there will be a freshly dead hawk laying there for eternity until someone comes by and willfully disturbs it and damages the circle (animals also explicitly will not willingly go near an active circle, so they wont come by and eat your hawk either).

The measures needed for a circle to be damaged have been discussed in another thread, but we have at least one example of 1000 years of muck building up on a circle and it still being active, to the point that the players that pass through the circle without noticing and catch the magical contagion. (Its in one of the adventures).

As far as theft goes, no one can use your circles if they are sealed. No one can enter them you do not permit. If they force their way through the magic barrier, they start taking automatic damage and risk being forced out.

Seriously, build yourself a "circle wagon", that has a rack in it designed to hold platforms that hold circles. Think of the image of a baker's rack, and make it large enough to hold 4x4 or 5x5 foot platforms that have active circles drawn on them.

Of course the down side to this is that you have to seal the circle with your blood.
Blood that is magically kept fresh for all eternity
It is a good thing that blood can not be used against a person as a link for various sympathetic magic right?
And a portable circle is STILL valuable even if I can't use it 'properly' I can use it to block of some other space, I can decipher it, I can sell it to OTHERS who want to decipher it, I can sell it to someone who wants access to the mages blood....there are lots of things to do with the circle

[Starmage21]

Definitely a scary proposition, having your blood lying around like that. Hopefully the effects of trying to push your way into a circle will ward off most of those problems.

[victor15065]

Even put them on wood and have a wizard put the fly spell on them and you can ride it too

[Library Ogre]

So if I have to sacrifice a chicken to activate a circle, there is nothing preventing me then from eating said chicken for dinner now that my circle is active? Man that could be useful. Just think of the Summon Animal applications!

In my view, you can eat the chicken.

[eliakon]

Definitely a scary proposition, having your blood lying around like that. Hopefully the effects of trying to push your way into a circle will ward off most of those problems.

Unless the circle is permanent (with a ward) then I can simply turn it off. (negate magic, or removing components will both work). Heck unless your circle is stored in an 'upright and locked' position them most of them would have to be stored in a de-energized state....

[Starmage21]

Definitely a scary proposition, having your blood lying around like that. Hopefully the effects of trying to push your way into a circle will ward off most of those problems.

Unless the circle is permanent (with a ward) then I can simply turn it off. (negate magic, or removing components will both work). Heck unless your circle is stored in an 'upright and locked' position them most of them would have to be stored in a de-energized state....

A sealed magic circle will not let you in to disturb the components, but yes negate magic and such. I'm not saying it isn't risky, but average Joe isn't going to get in there and get the circle deactivated.

Also, the way I was thinking of the portable circle platform, it's kind of laying flat on like a super sized baker's rack. You could literally have several active circles in the rack and not worry about them going anywhere. Theft, yeah, bit this is just a hypothetical Way I havnt tested yet. I'm in a fantasy game now playing a summoner. I'll let us know

[eliakon]

Definitely a scary proposition, having your blood lying around like that. Hopefully the effects of trying to push your way into a circle will ward off most of those problems.

Unless the circle is permanent (with a ward) then I can simply turn it off. (negate magic, or removing components will both work). Heck unless your circle is stored in an 'upright and locked' position them most of them would have to be stored in a de-energized state....

A sealed magic circle will not let you in to disturb the components, but yes negate magic and such. I'm not saying it isn't risky, but average Joe isn't going to get in there and get the circle deactivated.

Also, the way I was thinking of the portable circle platform, it's kind of laying flat on like a super sized baker's rack. You could literally have several active circles in the rack and not worry about them going anywhere. Theft, yeah, bit this is just a hypothetical Way I havnt tested yet. I'm in a fantasy game now playing a summoner. I'll let us know

Actually sealing a circle does nothing to protect the components (Unless I missed something, I could have). So as far as the rules go, as far as I can tell, you can (if you make your save) walk in take a key component deactivating the circle and your golden.
I re-read the section though, and negate magic doesn't apply. (though that doesn't preclude a custom 'negate circle' spell....)

[Starmage21]

Definitely a scary proposition, having your blood lying around like that. Hopefully the effects of trying to push your way into a circle will ward off most of those problems.

Unless the circle is permanent (with a ward) then I can simply turn it off. (negate magic, or removing components will both work). Heck unless your circle is stored in an 'upright and locked' position them most of them would have to be stored in a de-energized state....

A sealed magic circle will not let you in to disturb the components, but yes negate magic and such. I'm not saying it isn't risky, but average Joe isn't going to get in there and get the circle deactivated.

Also, the way I was thinking of the portable circle platform, it's kind of laying flat on like a super sized baker's rack. You could literally have several active circles in the rack and not worry about them going anywhere. Theft, yeah, bit this is just a hypothetical Way I havnt tested yet. I'm in a fantasy game now playing a summoner. I'll let us know

Actually sealing a circle does nothing to protect the components (Unless I missed something, I could have). So as far as the rules go, as far as I can tell, you can (if you make your save) walk in take a key component deactivating the circle and your golden.
I re-read the section though, and negate magic doesn't apply. (though that doesn't preclude a custom 'negate circle' spell....)

IIRC every sealed circle will not allow anyone not invited or part of the seal to enter at all, much less use the circle. It is as if every summoning and power circle include the basic protections afforded by a circle of protection (superior), while protection circles only affect those theyre keyed against. I could be partially or wholly wrong on this, and pulling headcanon out of my ass. So dont quote me on this one.

[eliakon]

Definitely a scary proposition, having your blood lying around like that. Hopefully the effects of trying to push your way into a circle will ward off most of those problems.

Unless the circle is permanent (with a ward) then I can simply turn it off. (negate magic, or removing components will both work). Heck unless your circle is stored in an 'upright and locked' position them most of them would have to be stored in a de-energized state....

A sealed magic circle will not let you in to disturb the components, but yes negate magic and such. I'm not saying it isn't risky, but average Joe isn't going to get in there and get the circle deactivated.

Also, the way I was thinking of the portable circle platform, it's kind of laying flat on like a super sized baker's rack. You could literally have several active circles in the rack and not worry about them going anywhere. Theft, yeah, bit this is just a hypothetical Way I havnt tested yet. I'm in a fantasy game now playing a summoner. I'll let us know

Actually sealing a circle does nothing to protect the components (Unless I missed something, I could have). So as far as the rules go, as far as I can tell, you can (if you make your save) walk in take a key component deactivating the circle and your golden.
I re-read the section though, and negate magic doesn't apply. (though that doesn't preclude a custom 'negate circle' spell....)

IIRC every sealed circle will not allow anyone not invited or part of the seal to enter at all, much less use the circle. It is as if every summoning and power circle include the basic protections afforded by a circle of protection (superior), while protection circles only affect those theyre keyed against. I could be partially or wholly wrong on this, and pulling headcanon out of my ass. So dont quote me on this one.

Right you need to save vs. Circles to force your way in. And once in you will take damage.
But unfortunately there is nothing stopping you from (for example) picking up the dish of salt or the clove of garlic that makes up the circle, and thus turning it off. (well other than being fried by magic, not knowing that doing so will deactivate the circle, and the likely violent objections of those who are using said circle.)

[victor15065]

So a flying platform with a power matrix would be awesome with a perminance ward that makes it indestructible too lol

[eliakon]

So a flying platform with a power matrix would be awesome with a perminance ward that makes it indestructible too lol

I have used permanent flight spells to make 'fighter planes' that had permanent circles before yes