The merits of cheap equipment

[Shark_Force]

That is part of what I already said - see reason (b). Or potentially (c). But it seems that much of this thread is suggesting that someone able to buy better armor would nonetheless choose Chipwell, and outside the suicidal and the fanatical, I don't see that as a realistic response.

Seconded. When given a choice and enough credits one will always g for the better equipment. Always imo. It's a different story when one does not have the money. It's like saying a police officer has a choice between using a top of the line bulletproof vest and a older less effective model. You can bet when given a choice he will take the top of the line.

who's been saying that?

so far all the arguments I've seen have basically boiled down to "it's better than body armour and costs very little to the point where you can often put several people in this or one person into a better suit". I've also seen advocating the use of TW-enhanced chipwell armour instead of other unimproved armours, but at that point you're not using a stock chipwell suit any more and because of the TW enhancements it's actually tougher than many otherwise superior armours (while still remaining quite inexpensive).

[Sureshot]

In a rpg one can get by using less protective equipment or armor. As your not dying your character is. In real life no one would touch the Chipwell suits. Not unless it was a emergency or a lack of money. For Rifts I see the need and utility of the Chipwell Stuff. I don't think it will ever be my first or second choice. As well the games better be away from CS cities or areas where the CS have a decent influence. No way no how are you waltzing in with a suit of armor with tW improvements. In a area where the CS are around. Chances are good one either gives up the equipment or is killed off. Or both.

It's the same reason that Northern Gun would not be as popular. Soldiers want a weapon to be very powerful as well as lightweight. I played many years ago with members of the Canadian armed forces in my group. They also had a good laugh at the description of the Northern gun stuff. Some had some very unflattering things to say about the way weapons are designed in Rifts. No soldier at least the ones on the frontlines wants to carry a heavy weapon. It can be the world most effective and damaging weapon. It's still extra weight one has to drag across the battlefield. If nothing else is around they would use a heavier weapon. By choice la light weapon with hitting power is preferred.

[cosmicfish]

I played many years ago with members of the Canadian armed forces in my group. They also had a good laugh at the description of the Northern gun stuff. Some had some very unflattering things to say about the way weapons are designed in Rifts. No soldier at least the ones on the frontlines wants to carry a heavy weapon. It can be the world most effective and damaging weapon. It's still extra weight one has to drag across the battlefield. If nothing else is around they would use a heavier weapon. By choice la light weapon with hitting power is preferred.

Similar, real-life situation - SEAL platoons go through a year of training together *before each 6-month deployment, and early in that process two out of each 8-man boat crew get designated as machinegunners**. It is usually the new guys who ask for or are assigned the job, because the experienced operators don't want to carry the weight.

*: Not including the 6-month individual training period beforehand.
**: As needed, that is - not all missions need or want that firepower, so one or both will carry an M4.

[cosmicfish]

so far all the arguments I've seen have basically boiled down to "it's better than body armour and costs very little to the point where you can often put several people in this or one person into a better suit".

I am not sure what the point of this argument even is.

Is it that the money spent should be better distributed amongst the team? If so then I absolutely agree, but I am not sure that anyone was advocating a team where one person is in top-line armor and everyone else is in tinfoil. I don't think the rest of the team would stand for it, unless of course the resources spent were unambiguously private or the rest of the team was otherwise unneeding of such protection.

Is it that you could hire more guys to wear those extra suits? There are substantial complications and expenses involved in that scenario, and again it comes down to maximizing survivability and is very situational. Heaven help you if those guys you hired are not as loyal as you hope!

The issue is in the title of the thread itself: The merits of cheap equipment - the only inherent merit of cheap equipment is that it is cheap. There is no situation where a sane person would avoid spending money on equipment that directly contributes to their actual survival.

Is there a point where Chipwell is the best option? Sure! But that is the precise point where you cannot afford anything better. If you have a little less or a little more money, then the best option is going to be something else entirely, and none of that means anything because "best" is always relative to a defined comparative group. Chipwell is the "best" only if you define the group to exclude anything better, whether that is accomplished by limiting the funds to be spent or limiting what the dealer has in stock.

[Nightmask]

That is part of what I already said - see reason (b). Or potentially (c). But it seems that much of this thread is suggesting that someone able to buy better armor would nonetheless choose Chipwell, and outside the suicidal and the fanatical, I don't see that as a realistic response.

Seconded. When given a choice and enough credits one will always g for the better equipment. Always imo. It's a different story when one does not have the money. It's like saying a police officer has a choice between using a top of the line bulletproof vest and a older less effective model. You can bet when given a choice he will take the top of the line.

Not everyone thinks like that, some will settle for the cheaper item (better is not always more expensive btw) even given the choice of the more expensive one for free because of things like not liking how it looks (yes some people will reject something that's better for the saving of their life because of how it looks) or just being more comfortable with the cheaper item. While many players will go for the more expensive item just because some will emulate the RL side of things of people who go with the cheaper item for one reason or another.

[cosmicfish]

Not everyone thinks like that, some will settle for the cheaper item (better is not always more expensive btw) even given the choice of the more expensive one for free because of things like not liking how it looks (yes some people will reject something that's better for the saving of their life because of how it looks)

I agree that players of role-playing games think like that, people with no stake higher than the time spent creating the character. Also, the insane and/or really stupid (which is why I excluded Juicers, Crazies, etc earlier - you can't really talk objectively about "merit" by citing the suicidal and insane).

or just being more comfortable with the cheaper item.

That only covers small capability gaps and only for a short period of time. You might not change armor in the middle of an operation, but if you have a week to rearm and re-equip, you have plenty of time to get comfortable with something that is much better at preserving your life.

While many players will go for the more expensive item just because some will emulate the RL side of things of people who go with the cheaper item for one reason or another.

But I come back to the word "merit" in the thread title... this isn't all about what people will do, it is about what people should do. Merit implies that there is a demonstrable, consistent advantage in cheap equipment, and "some people will make weird, detrimental choices" is not a great argument.

[Sureshot]

Not everyone thinks like that, some will settle for the cheaper item (better is not always more expensive btw) even given the choice of the more expensive one for free because of things like not liking how it looks (yes some people will reject something that's better for the saving of their life because of how it looks) or just being more comfortable with the cheaper item. While many players will go for the more expensive item just because some will emulate the RL side of things of people who go with the cheaper item for one reason or another.

Again I see what your saying. That being said this line of thinking can only happen in rpgs. Where the group can get by purchasing the cheaper stuff. At the end of the day the only thing that gets blown to atoms is a character sheet. At higher levels one has to either upgrade the Chipwell stuff or simply not compete imo. When I GM Rifts I don't pull any punches. I tell my players before they make characters espcially new to Rifts that it can be lethal. While also telling them I run my npcs with tactics and smart. Most men at arms npcs are going to target the characters with less powerful equipment. Why target the guy in the Samsom PA when a few well paced shots can take out the guy in Chipwell armor.

Again no one is saying that the Chipwell stuff is not useful far from it. Telling me that it can compete after upgrades is also not the best selling point imo. Almost anything with upgrades is going to be better than the original in most cases. Good luck walking around with a TW upgraded suit of armor in any CS controlled or anti-magic areas.

[Sureshot]

Similar, real-life situation - SEAL platoons go through a year of training together *before each 6-month deployment, and early in that process two out of each 8-man boat crew get designated as machinegunners**. It is usually the new guys who ask for or are assigned the job, because the experienced operators don't want to carry the weight.

*: Not including the 6-month individual training period beforehand.
**: As needed, that is - not all missions need or want that firepower, so one or both will carry an M4.

I'm a bit of a World War II buff. Either it was the Bazooka or the PIAT. Both worked at what they did. Heavy to carry and the troops hated lugging around. S

[Dog_O_War]

It's all about expectations.

--flatline

I believe that you get what you pay for.

But I also believe that there are diamonds in the rough.

That is, For less than the price of a suit of Chipwell, you can get a suit of Gladius; statistically it's better in all but one aspect (power supply).

Or instead of taking a rifle like the JA-11, you can take the JA-9 because it's cheaper and it has a 4000 foot range (double what most other rifles have).

Among other examples.

Basically there are some things you can go cheap on, because cheap does not necessarily mean bad, whereas there are some things you definitely want to shell out money for.

Personally, I wouldn't spend money on a Chipwell suit because there are better alternatives for transportation and combat.

[kaid]

In a rpg one can get by using less protective equipment or armor. As your not dying your character is. In real life no one would touch the Chipwell suits. Not unless it was a emergency or a lack of money. For Rifts I see the need and utility of the Chipwell Stuff. I don't think it will ever be my first or second choice. As well the games better be away from CS cities or areas where the CS have a decent influence. No way no how are you waltzing in with a suit of armor with tW improvements. In a area where the CS are around. Chances are good one either gives up the equipment or is killed off. Or both.

It's the same reason that Northern Gun would not be as popular. Soldiers want a weapon to be very powerful as well as lightweight. I played many years ago with members of the Canadian armed forces in my group. They also had a good laugh at the description of the Northern gun stuff. Some had some very unflattering things to say about the way weapons are designed in Rifts. No soldier at least the ones on the frontlines wants to carry a heavy weapon. It can be the world most effective and damaging weapon. It's still extra weight one has to drag across the battlefield. If nothing else is around they would use a heavier weapon. By choice la light weapon with hitting power is preferred.

One thing to note about the NG weapons is basically they were aiming to be the AK 47 of the rifts universe. They are heavier than others not as fancy and often not even as powerful. But there is now and always has been a market for weapons that work when you pull the trigger no matter how badly you treat them. Throw it in the mud or the snow or the sand have it maintained by a drunken merc and it still works. That is one reason the AK 47 is more popular today than a lot of other weapon systems even though it is overall less accurate than most of its competitors. Its cheap it has high availability and untrained low skilled troops can keep them firing with a minimum of cleaning.

Rifts does not do much to model durability for weapons so a lot of the advantages of the NG weapons don't really come much into play in game terms.

[Sureshot]

One thing to note about the NG weapons is basically they were aiming to be the AK 47 of the rifts universe. They are heavier than others not as fancy and often not even as powerful. But there is now and always has been a market for weapons that work when you pull the trigger no matter how badly you treat them. Throw it in the mud or the snow or the sand have it maintained by a drunken merc and it still works. That is one reason the AK 47 is more popular today than a lot of other weapon systems even though it is overall less accurate than most of its competitors. Its cheap it has high availability and untrained low skilled troops can keep them firing with a minimum of cleaning.

Rifts does not do much to model durability for weapons so a lot of the advantages of the NG weapons don't really come much into play in game terms.

Good point. Still when it's all said and done what the average soldier wants is a lightweight weapon. That has excellent range and stopping power. As well as durability. Not a easy combination to create in most weapons. With Rifts they have the tech to make it all four. If as a weapons seller your going out of your way to keep weapons heavy, clunky and bulky. Then the guy next to you like Wilks is making a killing because they have all four attributes in a weapon. Then don't be surprised when sales start to fall.

[cosmicfish]

Basically there are some things you can go cheap on, because cheap does not necessarily mean bad, whereas there are some things you definitely want to shell out money for.

Sure, there are bargains out there and there are items that are waaaaay overpriced. That doesn't prove any general merit of cheap gear.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly, cheap gear is something you probably want to avoid when picking "automatic to the OCC" gear (unless your GM makes you) but definitely something you should keep in mind while shopping for replacements, backups, and to outfit friendly NPC's. since odds are the player characters won't have the funds on hand to buy the good stuff. and at least you have a chance to take down some enemies and loot their gear while cheaply armed. unarmed your largely out of luck.

[flatline]

There's a big gap between $90k and $850k.

$90k can get you EBA armor with maybe 100MDC or it can get you a Chipwell suit with 120MDC and enhanced strength and enhanced speed and extra attacks per melee and skill bonuses.

Is it better than any other power armor? No, probably not, but if you don't have the money for better power armor, the Chipwell is still a step up from the other things you can afford.

Someone above said that that is a small niche, but let me repeat: There's a big gap between $90k and $850k!

--flatline

[kaid]

Or heck 164k gets you the chipwell flying armor which has 140MDC 40 mph ground speed and is capable of flight and actually has a radar and a longer range radio. It may not be the fanciest thing out there but that is pretty amazingly good bang for the buck if you can recharge eclips which is what this thing runs on.

[Dog_O_War]

Basically there are some things you can go cheap on, because cheap does not necessarily mean bad, whereas there are some things you definitely want to shell out money for.

Sure, there are bargains out there and there are items that are waaaaay overpriced. That doesn't prove any general merit of cheap gear.

Well for general merit, you can equip more people with cheap gear than you can with more costly gear, and that does not mean you're going to lose efficiency for value.

Additionally, you can have more back-up product when you purchase cheap gear as opposed to expensive gear, and that again does not mean you're going to lose efficiency for value.

As a rules-dependent option, you can use cheap gear to take the brunt of attacks in situations where it will not matter if you have expensive or cheap gear, as it's going to get trashed just as fast anyways. This relies on the GI Joe rule.

Cheap gear that is not combat related does just as good a job as expensively priced gear; an example of this would be hunting small game with a rifle; a cheap SDC rifle is all you need and will not cost you thousands just to own/shoot.

There are merits to cheap.

[Dog_O_War]

Someone above said that that is a small niche, but let me repeat: There's a big gap between $90k and $850k!

--flatline

Most of the time a persons' budget is the ultimate deciding factor.

As you said, there is a big gap, and it's not like you can afford $850k worth of gear when you only have $100,000.


That said, I'd rather be naked than in a suit of Chipwell

[Sureshot]

Again if money is a deciding factor then by all means by the cheaper stuff. If money is not a issue their are better choices. Buy the Chipwell stuff when nothing better or cheaper to be had. As Cosmicfish has said it doesn't prove any general merit of cheap gear. Given a choice and a decent budget I don't see why I would go with the cheaper gear. It provides less protection. May have less features of the better more expensive stuff. I can tell you in my games staying with cheap stuff for too ling will get you killed. I run and use my npcs efficently and with tactics. Sure you may have some sentimental or even roleplaying reason for using a suit of Plastiman. Your still going to the first target of choice from both pcs and npcs imo.

[Shark_Force]

Again no one is saying that the Chipwell stuff is not useful far from it. Telling me that it can compete after upgrades is also not the best selling point imo. Almost anything with upgrades is going to be better than the original in most cases. Good luck walking around with a TW upgraded suit of armor in any CS controlled or anti-magic areas.

the difference is that you can buy an upgraded suit of chipwell and it is *still* cheaper than it's closest competitors. by the time you could afford the *base* model of most power armour (which tend to hover around 1 million credits), you could have bought 3 or 4 upgraded suits of chipwell (for different purposes, or just as replacements should one of them take damage through all the upgrades you've put in).

and if I'm the sort of person shopping for TW enhancements, odds are good I don't *want* to go to the CS in the first place. but if, for some reason, I *do* want to go to a place where my mere ability to use most TW gear in the first place is essentially going to put me on the list of undesirables and possibly just get me tossed in jail or killed, fortunately even the upgraded chipwell suits are so inexpensive that by the time I could afford a single suit of most other power armours, I could instead buy a couple upgraded chipwell suits, a couple unupgraded ones, a few suits of body armour (which can probably also include some upgraded and some not), a selection of non-magical weaponry (and possibly some magical ones), and probably a place to store all my magical gear to keep it safe while I'm travelling through a place that I have every reason to never want to go to in the first place.

again, if someone just says "you can have any suit of power armour that you want", then I certainly would never recommend someone pick the chipwell suit.

but if it's "you have 500,000 credits saved up, how do you spend it?", well, chipwell has a pretty good chance of getting their hands on some of my money so I can get my hands on some of their armour.

[Tor]

The reason for the stigma on Chipwell comes from the fluff and the SDC PA they make. (So if it exist that was what the writers wanted)

I wouldn't call having sensors with half or less range just fluff Even the MDC suits have that. I assume they all have at least the features EBA normally enjoys but prob not PA. There's just gray on what exactly they're missing or how bad the range is.

most players do not pay for there starting gear with a cash pool allownece, so they tend not see acquiring starting gear as having a cost and in play they will replace lost gear with what they can afford. And last time I checked repairs and rechargers are set up to strip them off allot of on hand cash.

Though I agree most survival-minded PCs will not outfit low-tier BA or PA or bots as their starting equip (though some may do this for RP rep) there is the whole "pick Behemoth explorer as starting bot, sell, purchase 20 back-up suits" kinda trick.

Some most people would not think of like wipes. While traveling through the woods you may not always be able to shower or bath to stay clean but simple pack of baby wipes or a wash cloth and water and you can stay some what fresh even away from indoor plumbing.

Good consideration considering the nasties that might live in various bodies of water.

Although with so many parties having mages to cast Create Water or Cleanse I expect many skimp on those considerations. Good idea for TW device too.

it seems that much of this thread is suggesting that someone able to buy better armor would nonetheless choose Chipwell, and outside the suicidal and the fanatical, I don't see that as a realistic response.

Even if someone is able to afford more expensive PA, they might have other desires for that money, like purchasing weapons or grenades, recharging e-clips, buying food,

It's like saying a police officer has a choice between using a top of the line bulletproof vest and a older less effective model. You can bet when given a choice he will take the top of the line.

I don't see how it's like that, do officers have to pay for their vests and weigh the benefits of superior armor to other things like having a clean gun, fast car, fuel, bullets, coffee?

Any automotive mechanic with a welding torch could likely do basic repairs to armor on a warmonger without having to get into any of the specialized tools/techniques needed to repair/bond MDC alloy.

Dunno about that, it's not exactly a car, should be some kind of penalty there.

In real life no one would touch the Chipwell suits. Not unless it was a emergency or a lack of money.

Emergencies and lack of money aren't going to be rare situations on Rifts Earth.

Might as well say "nobody would touch bologna/spam".

games better be away from CS cities or areas where the CS have a decent influence. No way no how are you waltzing in with a suit of armor with tW improvements. In a area where the CS are around. Chances are good one either gives up the equipment or is killed off. Or both

This is a risk if you go waltzing around in Glitter-Boy or Naruni Knight stuff too, I guess the question is... what kind of power armor can you go around wearing casually without worrying about CS hassle?

Any CS knowledgeable about PA are probably going to know that a Samson (named after a human endowed with magical strength? race traitor!) or Titan (named after a D-Bee? Alien sympathizer!) is more dangerous than a Warmonger.

It's the same reason that Northern Gun would not be as popular. Soldiers want a weapon to be very powerful as well as lightweight. I played many years ago with members of the Canadian armed forces in my group. They also had a good laugh at the description of the Northern gun stuff. Some had some very unflattering things to say about the way weapons are designed in Rifts. No soldier at least the ones on the frontlines wants to carry a heavy weapon. It can be the world most effective and damaging weapon. It's still extra weight one has to drag across the battlefield. If nothing else is around they would use a heavier weapon. By choice la light weapon with hitting power is preferred.

That's probably why heavy weapons tend to be wielded by troops in exo-skeletons or PA or who are borgs which would minimize or eliminate fatigue factors like this.

For less than the price of a suit of Chipwell, you can get a suit of Gladius; statistically it's better in all but one aspect (power supply).

The Gladius (Merc101-2) is cheaper than (60% of the price) the Chipwell Assault Suit (Merc145) but power-supply is not the only downside to it.

There are areas where the Gladius excels, I'll admit that:
*has more MDC
*does not require PA combat skill to get melee attack bonus
*shorter
*lighter
*30% fatigue is better than 80% fatigue

Here are other areas where the CAS is better besides its nuclear power supply:
*has a higher PS
*has 2 built-in ranged weapon systems, a machinegun and a lasergun
*basic power armor HtH bonuses apply and are better than the gladius bonus to attack/initiative
*can inflict MD with maneuvers like a body flip or a tackle, the gladius only does MD via punches/kicks
*enhanced leaping distance
*radar and targeting computer

I think a fairer suit to compare to the Gladius would be the Challenger (Mercs144) though since they are both electric suits. The Challenger is cheaper, equal strength/battery, less MDC but has vision ehnancements, and still gets full PAbasic bonuses and maneuvers.

In a HtH fight pretty sure a Challenger piloted by PA basic guy would whup someone in a Gladius on the basis of being able to MD body flip them into stun-lock. Decent auto-parry could turn the tables though.

instead of taking a rifle like the JA-11, you can take the JA-9 because it's cheaper and it has a 4000 foot range (double what most other rifles have).

If all you're looking for is the laser range I agree it's a better investment.

The JA-11 however can do twice the damage with that laser (arguably worth twice the cost alone) AND bypass Glitter-Boy immunity (not that you can really face down a GB unless multiple people are using it) AND it has a built-in e-cannister for back-up payload, and has a burst-capable ion for shorter range confrontations, and can fire an SDC bullet for that annoying naked Impervious-2-Energy mage (or vampire/werewolf if you have silver bullet) and for all this it only weighs a half-pound more.

Personally, I wouldn't spend money on a Chipwell suit because there are better alternatives for transportation and combat.

Specifically what? I think we should specify which of the 3 suits is under critique at a time and what the alternate being presented for equal/less cost is.

164k gets you the chipwell flying armor which has 140MDC 40 mph ground speed and is capable of flight and actually has a radar and a longer range radio. It may not be the fanciest thing out there but that is pretty amazingly good bang for the buck if you can recharge eclips which is what this thing runs on.

[/quote]
Was this in SB1 or NG1/2 or somethin?

[eliakon]

I will just say that anyone claiming that no one would touch chipwell stuff in the real world has never worked with real world military procurement.

In the real world budgetary concerns are a HUGE component of selecting equipment. And I think a lot of people are looking at this backwards
Don't just compare these suits to other PA suits, compare them to other suits that have the same armor value
And if you offered the real world (First World)militaries a suit of powered exoskeletons that had the same protective value as their current body armor, but only cost twice as much....they would be lining up out the door and around the block to take it.
Now would they pass it over when they were buying power armor....but the second and third world powers that don't have unlimited budgets would be very interested.

[Dog_O_War]

For less than the price of a suit of Chipwell, you can get a suit of Gladius; statistically it's better in all but one aspect (power supply).

Personally, I wouldn't spend money on a Chipwell suit because there are better alternatives for transportation and combat.

Specifically what? I think we should specify which of the 3 suits is under critique at a time and what the alternate being presented for equal/less cost is.

That's a pointless as it's very situational; only one suit of Chipwell has a nuclear power supply, and none of them have better MDC than a Gladius does. Additionally, for purposes of transport, you're better off with a GAW vehicle + body armour for speed and distance, You can get body armours that have more MDC than Chipwell suits for protection, etc. etc.

Also, there are more than three suits.

instead of taking a rifle like the JA-11, you can take the JA-9 because it's cheaper and it has a 4000 foot range (double what most other rifles have).

If all you're looking for is the laser range I agree it's a better investment.

The JA-11 however can do twice the damage with that laser (arguably worth twice the cost alone) AND bypass Glitter-Boy immunity (not that you can really face down a GB unless multiple people are using it) AND it has a built-in e-cannister for back-up payload, and has a burst-capable ion for shorter range confrontations, and can fire an SDC bullet for that annoying naked Impervious-2-Energy mage (or vampire/werewolf if you have silver bullet) and for all this it only weighs a half-pound more.

Okay so the comparatives.

First, cost (to satisfy the "cheaper" quotient)
The JA-9 costs 20,000cr
The JA-11 costs 40,000cr; double that of the JA-9.

Now the statistics:

These guns have the same variable-frequency capability for their lasers.
The JA-11 however can apparently do 4d6 (or 2d6) using the exact same amount of energy (30 rounds out of a long e-clip).
However, the JA-11 must fire aimed shots with its laser; that's two attacks per shot, meaning that on the economy of attacks, it is only equivalent on its highest-damage setting as the JA-9 is normally.

The JA-11 does have an ion attack at 3d6, but the range is only 1600 feet and it does not fire in bursts.

It does have the versatile afterthought of being able to shoot a 7.62mm round, but I wouldn't pay 20,000cr for that. I wouldn't even pay 1,000cr.

It has been mentioned that weight is an important factor in the real world for equipment, but this is a game; I'll march 30 miles a day with a hundred pounds of gear without complaint because I can choose to ignore that mundane annoyance. Thereby, the half-pound extra the JA-11 weighs is not worth mentioning, but then again, neither is just getting an SDC AK-47 with 150 rounds of various ammo for 500cr* and suffering with the extra 15-20 Lbs. instead of paying 20,000 extra credits.
*this number is made up, but looks reasonable.

Oh and they both have +1 to strike.

[glitterboy2098]

neither is just getting an SDC AK-47 with 150 rounds of various ammo for 500cr* and suffering with the extra 15-20 Lbs. instead of paying 20,000 extra credits.
*this number is made up, but looks reasonable.

according to the old RMB, an Ak-47 cost 900 cr for the weapon

the ammunition cost is not given.

[Blue_Lion]

Huh... *takes a 2nd glance at Mend the Broken in FoM*

50 PPE repairs 100 SDC and 30 PPE repairs 1 MDC... so it can't be that...

Do operators offer cheaper rates for 100 SDC compared to 1 MDC?

Mend armor would not be much cheaper but it allows you to do things like create iron/create steel or simply salvage more common and more easily worked with SDC materials. Any automotive mechanic with a welding torch could likely do basic repairs to armor on a warmonger without having to get into any of the specialized tools/techniques needed to repair/bond MDC alloy.


The warmonger is not the most awesome thing around but its got enough MDC for basic light MDC threat locations like cities/towns and its big enough and strong enough to still be pretty intimidating to normal gangers/thugs. Even the lowest end power armor is still power armor after all and a lot of civilians really are not going to know the difference in power level between a warmonger and a samson because either of those units could instantly kill them so to normal people they are nearly equally powerful.

They also are pretty reasonable salvage unit mechs they are strong enough to help lift/carry/cut salvage and tough enough to handle light combat needs if some fight breaks out when you are working salvaging something.

I am curious where does it say that any one with auto-mechanic skill and welding torch can repair chipenwell armor. Also welding parts on can reduce the durability of mettle armor in the real world so this seam out of place thought. There is more to repairing PA than just repairing the plates you also need to maintain the advance parts that make up its systems repairing any PA as far as I know requires specialist such as operators or some one with robot mechanics and electronics.

[Tor]

That's a pointless as it's very situational; only one suit of Chipwell has a nuclear power supply

My point is that they all have different costs.

none of them have better MDC than a Gladius does.

MDC isn't everything.

Additionally, for purposes of transport, you're better off with a GAW vehicle + body armour for speed and distance, You can get body armours that have more MDC than Chipwell suits for protection, etc. etc.

Please give an example of a body armor and vehicle and which Chipwell suit you are comparing the combo to. I'd like to do a cost-benefit analysis.

there are more than three suits.

Yeah people keep talking about some flying one... I can only remember the 3 together in Mercs after the Angrar stuff, I'll enter other variants into the convo if directed to'm.

These guns have the same variable-frequency capability for their lasers.

Ah, overlooked that for JA-9 because it was noted under the intro rather than the damage, will take that out of the argument.

The JA-11 however can apparently do 4d6 (or 2d6) using the exact same amount of energy (30 rounds out of a long e-clip). However, the JA-11 must fire aimed shots with its laser; that's two attacks per shot, meaning that on the economy of attacks, it is only equivalent on its highest-damage setting as the JA-9 is normally.

These weapons give strike bonuses on aimed shots so I figured people would be doing that anyway.

Also this is more of a retcon disadvantage via RUE because aimed shots only took 1 action originally giving it double the action-damage economy.

The JA-11 does have an ion attack at 3d6, but the range is only 1600 feet and it does not fire in bursts.

Again this is more of a RMB v RUE thing. The Ion gun did explicitly fire bursts in RMB which helped to justify the higher cost. If the alternate-dimension incarnation KS presented in RUE does not then I could see that warranting a cost reduction.

It does have the versatile afterthought of being able to shoot a 7.62mm round, but I wouldn't pay 20,000cr for that. I wouldn't even pay 1,000cr.

I guess you could just carry a separate rifle for it, but that will keep your hands/dashboard pretty full.

Oh and they both have +1 to strike.

On aimed shots, yes. Unless that also got RUEified.

[Subjugator]

I'm getting into this very late, but I can see times when cheap equipment (that still does MD) is the best option:

When you need to give arms and armor to people and have a limited budget (and other than Naruni, who doesn't?), go with the most expensive weapons you can get that'll meet your needs and arm every single person you need to arm.

/Sub

[nilgravity]

Most GMs I've played with didn't let us accumulate much money. With one I started turning down mercenary work because he wasn't paying enough to refill my eclips. And he thought it was game breaking when I started salvaging bionics.
Another GM told me that his philosophy is that if you can afford to keep your glitterboy fully repaired he isn't doing his job (I actually got pretty rich in that campaign though playing a crazy who would follow power armor into the wilderness and snipe them when they came out since I slept less than they did. Then sell their undamaged pa).

[Nightmask]

Most GMs I've played with didn't let us accumulate much money. With one I started turning down mercenary work because he wasn't paying enough to refill my eclips. And he thought it was game breaking when I started salvaging bionics.
Another GM told me that his philosophy is that if you can afford to keep your glitterboy fully repaired he isn't doing his job (I actually got pretty rich in that campaign though playing a crazy who would follow power armor into the wilderness and snipe them when they came out since I slept less than they did. Then sell their undamaged pa).

A GM who doesn't know his job then if he thinks that.

[Shark_Force]

I would agree that the GM isn't doing their job if you're constantly choosing to solve things with all-out combat all the time and your gear isn't getting damaged.

if you're taking steps to make combat rare by avoiding fights, talking things through, and using intelligent tactics in the event that a fight does break out, I'd have to disagree.

[Tor]

Another GM told me that his philosophy is that if you can afford to keep your glitterboy fully repaired he isn't doing his job

If a PC is smart and works in open areas to capitalize on his range this should happen rarely.

Even ammo costs can be kept down to a shot or two per encounter. Simply knowing a GlitterBoy is in the battle should send a lot of people into surrender.

[flatline]

Another GM told me that his philosophy is that if you can afford to keep your glitterboy fully repaired he isn't doing his job

If a PC is smart and works in open areas to capitalize on his range this should happen rarely.

Even ammo costs can be kept down to a shot or two per encounter. Simply knowing a GlitterBoy is in the battle should send a lot of people into surrender.

Only if the GM let's NPCs surrender. I've known GMs where every fight lasted until one side or the other was entirely wiped out.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

I would agree that the GM isn't doing their job if you're constantly choosing to solve things with all-out combat all the time and your gear isn't getting damaged.

if you're taking steps to make combat rare by avoiding fights, talking things through, and using intelligent tactics in the event that a fight does break out, I'd have to disagree.

Well my response was because the GM felt his job was making sure someone (A Glitter Boy but might have been an issue for anyone with power armor) never had the money to fully repair his equipment, thinking something wrong if they could actually afford to completely repair things. That's not a GM's job, their job is managing the game world and presenting entertaining RP options and working together with the players so everyone's able to enjoy things. Making sure the Glitter Boy could never afford to get his power armor completely repaired is working against a particular player though, which isn't what a GM should be doing.

[Tor]

That can be bad GMing for a lot of opponents, could work for insane/death-wishing/monster though.

I know if I was facing down a GB, if I thought they might let me live I might surrender to them.

Repairs are weird even with the RUE update to the operator, hard to get a lot of information about the time/skill/supplies/cost and all that for MDC restoration to various stuff.

[Dog_O_War]

That's a pointless as it's very situational; only one suit of Chipwell has a nuclear power supply

My point is that they all have different costs.

That's not a point; it's like saying "aliens of different species are different". It's also a colossal waste of effort to compare every combination of equipment under 250,000cr.

none of them have better MDC than a Gladius does.

MDC isn't everything.

"'MDC isn't everything' Tor said, when speaking of armour"

MDC in this game allows a person to make mistakes; you missed your shot? No big deal - you've got extra MDC to absorb another hit. Etc. That is the most important thing.

Additionally, for purposes of transport, you're better off with a GAW vehicle + body armour for speed and distance, You can get body armours that have more MDC than Chipwell suits for protection, etc. etc.

Please give an example of a body armor and vehicle and which Chipwell suit you are comparing the combo to. I'd like to do a cost-benefit analysis.

Give your own examples if you're gonna do a cost-benefit analysis.

there are more than three suits.

Yeah people keep talking about some flying one... I can only remember the 3 together in Mercs after the Angrar stuff, I'll enter other variants into the convo if directed to'm.

There's at least 5. None of that matters though as we're talking about Chipwell as a whole, not a specific Chipwell suit.

The JA-11 however can apparently do 4d6 (or 2d6) using the exact same amount of energy (30 rounds out of a long e-clip). However, the JA-11 must fire aimed shots with its laser; that's two attacks per shot, meaning that on the economy of attacks, it is only equivalent on its highest-damage setting as the JA-9 is normally.

These weapons give strike bonuses on aimed shots so I figured people would be doing that anyway.

Why would people do that? You have a better chance to hit rolling twice as much than you do rolling half as much with a +3 (1 from weapon, 2 from WP); rolling twice as much ups your odds of hitting significantly. You also produce twice as much critical hits that way.

Basically, aimed shots are very situation-dependent in their use.

Also this is more of a retcon disadvantage via RUE because aimed shots only took 1 action originally giving it double the action-damage economy.

Doesn't matter; that's the rule.

The JA-11 does have an ion attack at 3d6, but the range is only 1600 feet and it does not fire in bursts.

Again this is more of a RMB v RUE thing.

Doesn't matter; the new rules trump the old ones. No point in complaining about it.

The Ion gun did explicitly fire bursts in RMB which helped to justify the higher cost. If the alternate-dimension incarnation KS presented in RUE does not then I could see that warranting a cost reduction.

Keep your "alternate-dimension incarnation" gibberish out of it.

[eliakon]

That's a pointless as it's very situational; only one suit of Chipwell has a nuclear power supply

My point is that they all have different costs.

That's not a point; it's like saying "aliens of different species are different". It's also a colossal waste of effort to compare every combination of equipment under 250,000cr.

No, but its just as much a over generalization to say that they should NOT be compared.
With out looking at thing actually side to side there is know way to know what the apples to apples comparison IS

none of them have better MDC than a Gladius does.

MDC isn't everything.

"'MDC isn't everything' Tor said, when speaking of armour"

MDC in this game allows a person to make mistakes; you missed your shot? No big deal - you've got extra MDC to absorb another hit. Etc. That is the most important thing.

Then by this logic there is only one 'right' suit of armor, and all other suits are wrong because they have the wrong MDC?
No, because, wait for it, MDC isn't everything. MDC is important, so is weight, cost, availability, features, reparability....
Its a gamer fallacy to just look at the damage stat and say HP and DPS are the onlythings that matter, when they aren't the only things that matter.

Additionally, for purposes of transport, you're better off with a GAW vehicle + body armour for speed and distance, You can get body armours that have more MDC than Chipwell suits for protection, etc. etc.

Please give an example of a body armor and vehicle and which Chipwell suit you are comparing the combo to. I'd like to do a cost-benefit analysis.

Give your own examples if you're gonna do a cost-benefit analysis.

If your the one making the claim that there is a 'better way' then the burden is on you to support it. Tor doesn't have to provide the combos for you.

there are more than three suits.

Yeah people keep talking about some flying one... I can only remember the 3 together in Mercs after the Angrar stuff, I'll enter other variants into the convo if directed to'm.

There's at least 5. None of that matters though as we're talking about Chipwell as a whole, not a specific Chipwell suit.

nothing to see here....move along....

The JA-11 however can apparently do 4d6 (or 2d6) using the exact same amount of energy (30 rounds out of a long e-clip). However, the JA-11 must fire aimed shots with its laser; that's two attacks per shot, meaning that on the economy of attacks, it is only equivalent on its highest-damage setting as the JA-9 is normally.

These weapons give strike bonuses on aimed shots so I figured people would be doing that anyway.

Why would people do that? You have a better chance to hit rolling twice as much than you do rolling half as much with a +3 (1 from weapon, 2 from WP); rolling twice as much ups your odds of hitting significantly. You also produce twice as much critical hits that way.

Basically, aimed shots are very situation-dependent in their use.

Well considering that both of these are supposed to be sniper rifles and not general infantry assault rifles.......

Also this is more of a retcon disadvantage via RUE because aimed shots only took 1 action originally giving it double the action-damage economy.

Doesn't matter; that's the rule.

That's the rule, NOW.
When they were created and priced that wasn't the rule though was it?

The JA-11 does have an ion attack at 3d6, but the range is only 1600 feet and it does not fire in bursts.

Again this is more of a RMB v RUE thing.

Doesn't matter; the new rules trump the old ones. No point in complaining about it.

Again, when the old rifle was made, and priced it was priced as if it had burst capability. So complaining about its price vis-à-vis the lack of burst now is sort of disingenuous.

The Ion gun did explicitly fire bursts in RMB which helped to justify the higher cost. If the alternate-dimension incarnation KS presented in RUE does not then I could see that warranting a cost reduction.

Keep your "alternate-dimension incarnation" gibberish out of it.

Alternate Universe, or Ret-Con...the two weapons have different combat stats and the same price tag. Which is the point he is making, that under the new rules its not worth as much, because its being priced at the old utility.

[Tor]

That's a pointless as it's very situational; only one suit of Chipwell has a nuclear power supply

My point is that they all have different costs.

That's not a point; it's like saying "aliens of different species are different".

Cost is a point, otherwise we could just condemn the majority of PA for being inferior the the Silverhawk used by the CCW.

You were saying "I wouldn't spend money", you introduced cost as a factor.

It's also a colossal waste of effort to compare every combination of equipment under 250,000cr.

I'm not asking for every combination, just 1 example to start with for evaluation to support your claim.

"'MDC isn't everything' Tor said, when speaking of armour" MDC in this game allows a person to make mistakes; you missed your shot? No big deal - you've got extra MDC to absorb another hit. Etc. That is the most important thing.

Other factors that are important include your ability to prowl or climb or the speed you can move at or if the armor creates penalties to combat rolls if your PS is too low.

If we look at the cost of armor in RMB, if MDC were the prime factor then higher MDC would always mean higher-cost. If someone out there will pay more money for armor with lower MDC then they have proven it matters.

An example contradicting this would be comparing the Bushman on RMBp211 to the Urban Warrior on RMBp3210. The Bushman is less expensive and has more MDC. As the prowl penalties are identical, all I can figure is that the Urban Warrior is more expensive because it is lighter, and maybe due to aesthetics.

Give your own examples if you're gonna do a cost-benefit analysis.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here exactly, you were putting down Chipwell so I figured you had an example of what you could buy for the cost of a Chipwell suit that could surpass it.

I'll take a stab at it, but my giving an example of what Chipwell outstrips doesn't mean you can't come up with a better combination to surpass it.

I'll go with the Chipwell Assault Suit because the battery life of the Challenger/Warmonger complicate comparisons. Battery life also complicates adding force-fields to body armor so I'll avoid that.

The PS of the person using the armor factors into what I can select. The Mega-Juicer Combat Armor from Northern Gun (Uprising69) has almost as much MDC as the CAS but the user would need a high PS, as does the Man-Killer.

Aside from the Gladius (a great contender already discussed, but with 4-day lifespan probs) the best contender would probably be some kind of Exo-skeleton BA. The Bear Body Armor (Warlords174) has same main-body MDC (and more head protection) and it's smaller and weighs less. It also leaves you with 175 000 to spend on a vehicle, if you want to roll with that? Availability would be a big concern though, I expect the price of a Bear would rise outside Russia, Chipwell stuff probably easier to acquire in NA. I think for that purpose our comparisons should perhaps be restricted to stuff available in NA?

I'm having some difficulty deciding on a vehicle combo though. If I don't pick a nuclear vehicle then we have to take ongoing fuel costs into consideration and in a lot of cases I don't even know what those are. I could see ignoring them if we did a TW conversion since PPE is basically cost-free but that would mean our comparison only applies to psychics/mages who can use that kinda stuff.

Nuclear vehicles without these considerations tend to be prohibitively expensive though. Non-nuclear vehicles suffer liability issues if you can't find replacement fuel or an electric recharge station.

I do agree that vehicles are a really cheap source of speed compared to a lot of PA though.

There's at least 5. None of that matters though as we're talking about Chipwell as a whole, not a specific Chipwell suit.

We can still only compare 1 chipwell product at a time to other products. As the inferiority of 1 suit would not affect the competetiveness of other suits, if you want to assault the entire line you have to assault the best suit.

Why would people do that? You have a better chance to hit rolling twice as much than you do rolling half as much with a +3 (1 from weapon, 2 from WP); rolling twice as much ups your odds of hitting significantly. You also produce twice as much critical hits that way. Basically, aimed shots are very situation-dependent in their use.

Firing an initial surprise attack is one situation where you would want to make an aimed shot because time isn't a factor. This is one major thing with snipers who might want to relocate after the first shot.

I'm not sure what you mean about doubling criticals, that would still only double the individual shot, not both shots fired over 2 actions.

Similarly confused about what you mean regarding better chance of hitting, more damage will be landed over time firing 4d6 every 2 actions with higher bonuses compared to 2d6 every action with inferior bonuses.

The ammo efficiency (lower e-clip recharge costs, able to go longer without reloading) is also an issue.

Doesn't matter; the new rules trump the old ones. Keep your "alternate-dimension incarnation" gibberish out of it.

Naw, we're allowed to play non-RUE RMB if we like. Different PPE mechanics says different dimension to me. "Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®." doesn't exactly scream "defer to Ultimate or leave". My sig from the PF forum should apply to Rifts too

[Blue_Lion]

That's a pointless as it's very situational; only one suit of Chipwell has a nuclear power supply

My point is that they all have different costs.

That's not a point; it's like saying "aliens of different species are different".

Cost is a point, otherwise we could just condemn the majority of PA for being inferior the the Silverhawk used by the CCW.

You were saying "I wouldn't spend money", you introduced cost as a factor.

It's also a colossal waste of effort to compare every combination of equipment under 250,000cr.

I'm not asking for every combination, just 1 example to start with for evaluation to support your claim.

"'MDC isn't everything' Tor said, when speaking of armour" MDC in this game allows a person to make mistakes; you missed your shot? No big deal - you've got extra MDC to absorb another hit. Etc. That is the most important thing.

Other factors that are important include your ability to prowl or climb or the speed you can move at or if the armor creates penalties to combat rolls if your PS is too low.

If we look at the cost of armor in RMB, if MDC were the prime factor then higher MDC would always mean higher-cost. If someone out there will pay more money for armor with lower MDC then they have proven it matters.

An example contradicting this would be comparing the Bushman on RMBp211 to the Urban Warrior on RMBp3210. The Bushman is less expensive and has more MDC. As the prowl penalties are identical, all I can figure is that the Urban Warrior is more expensive because it is lighter, and maybe due to aesthetics.

Give your own examples if you're gonna do a cost-benefit analysis.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here exactly, you were putting down Chipwell so I figured you had an example of what you could buy for the cost of a Chipwell suit that could surpass it.

I'll take a stab at it, but my giving an example of what Chipwell outstrips doesn't mean you can't come up with a better combination to surpass it.

I'll go with the Chipwell Assault Suit because the battery life of the Challenger/Warmonger complicate comparisons. Battery life also complicates adding force-fields to body armor so I'll avoid that.

The PS of the person using the armor factors into what I can select. The Mega-Juicer Combat Armor from Northern Gun (Uprising69) has almost as much MDC as the CAS but the user would need a high PS, as does the Man-Killer.

Aside from the Gladius (a great contender already discussed, but with 4-day lifespan probs) the best contender would probably be some kind of Exo-skeleton BA. The Bear Body Armor (Warlords174) has same main-body MDC (and more head protection) and it's smaller and weighs less. It also leaves you with 175 000 to spend on a vehicle, if you want to roll with that? Availability would be a big concern though, I expect the price of a Bear would rise outside Russia, Chipwell stuff probably easier to acquire in NA. I think for that purpose our comparisons should perhaps be restricted to stuff available in NA?

I'm having some difficulty deciding on a vehicle combo though. If I don't pick a nuclear vehicle then we have to take ongoing fuel costs into consideration and in a lot of cases I don't even know what those are. I could see ignoring them if we did a TW conversion since PPE is basically cost-free but that would mean our comparison only applies to psychics/mages who can use that kinda stuff.

Nuclear vehicles without these considerations tend to be prohibitively expensive though. Non-nuclear vehicles suffer liability issues if you can't find replacement fuel or an electric recharge station.

I do agree that vehicles are a really cheap source of speed compared to a lot of PA though.

There's at least 5. None of that matters though as we're talking about Chipwell as a whole, not a specific Chipwell suit.

We can still only compare 1 chipwell product at a time to other products. As the inferiority of 1 suit would not affect the competetiveness of other suits, if you want to assault the entire line you have to assault the best suit.

Why would people do that? You have a better chance to hit rolling twice as much than you do rolling half as much with a +3 (1 from weapon, 2 from WP); rolling twice as much ups your odds of hitting significantly. You also produce twice as much critical hits that way. Basically, aimed shots are very situation-dependent in their use.

Firing an initial surprise attack is one situation where you would want to make an aimed shot because time isn't a factor. This is one major thing with snipers who might want to relocate after the first shot.

I'm not sure what you mean about doubling criticals, that would still only double the individual shot, not both shots fired over 2 actions.

Similarly confused about what you mean regarding better chance of hitting, more damage will be landed over time firing 4d6 every 2 actions with higher bonuses compared to 2d6 every action with inferior bonuses.

The ammo efficiency (lower e-clip recharge costs, able to go longer without reloading) is also an issue.

Doesn't matter; the new rules trump the old ones. Keep your "alternate-dimension incarnation" gibberish out of it.

Naw, we're allowed to play non-RUE RMB if we like. Different PPE mechanics says different dimension to me. "Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®." doesn't exactly scream "defer to Ultimate or leave". My sig from the PF forum should apply to Rifts too

Your statement on dimensions and rule changes is your opinion not cannon. By cannon RUE replaces the orginal main book that is why they no longer print the original RIFTS RPG.

You are missing 3 important things.

1. The setting (dimension) is the fluff text and flavor of the setting.

2. The rules are how we interact with the setting.

3. A change to the rules does not change the setting just how we interact with it.

(RUE did not change the setting the time line changes where the results of pre RUE books advancing the story/time line. It also does not remove the core flavor of the game.)

Using your opinion without cannon support as part of an cannon argument is flawed as by cannon the Rules in RUE are the rules we use now. If you want to start topics to discuss the original rules that is fine. But as some one just pointed out people are tired of you using it when they are discussing the game as it is now. And claiming alternate dimensions as justification for doing so. By default most topics are about currant cannon.

[Shark_Force]

I would agree that the GM isn't doing their job if you're constantly choosing to solve things with all-out combat all the time and your gear isn't getting damaged.

if you're taking steps to make combat rare by avoiding fights, talking things through, and using intelligent tactics in the event that a fight does break out, I'd have to disagree.

Well my response was because the GM felt his job was making sure someone (A Glitter Boy but might have been an issue for anyone with power armor) never had the money to fully repair his equipment, thinking something wrong if they could actually afford to completely repair things. That's not a GM's job, their job is managing the game world and presenting entertaining RP options and working together with the players so everyone's able to enjoy things. Making sure the Glitter Boy could never afford to get his power armor completely repaired is working against a particular player though, which isn't what a GM should be doing.

sure, but part of keeping the setting consistent is that if you get into a lot of fights, you're going to get hit (if you can be clever, so can your enemies), and in rifts, getting hit *at all* basically means you just lost a lot of money. like crazy stupid amounts of money. and that's just for regular armour... you get hit in a glitter boy, you're possibly looking at needing to either go on an adventure to find repair materials, or paying someone to do so, unless you're working for free quebec or something like that.

I agree that specifically keeping someone from being able to get enough money to fully repair their armour is not part of the GM's job. but the world is one where there are a lot of possible threats and where repairing pretty much *anything* is incredibly expensive. as part of the setting, if you're getting into a lot of fights, you probably shouldn't be able to afford it for long unless you're something like a hatchling dragon or have access to a self-renewing force field or similar.

[flatline]

I would agree that the GM isn't doing their job if you're constantly choosing to solve things with all-out combat all the time and your gear isn't getting damaged.

if you're taking steps to make combat rare by avoiding fights, talking things through, and using intelligent tactics in the event that a fight does break out, I'd have to disagree.

Well my response was because the GM felt his job was making sure someone (A Glitter Boy but might have been an issue for anyone with power armor) never had the money to fully repair his equipment, thinking something wrong if they could actually afford to completely repair things. That's not a GM's job, their job is managing the game world and presenting entertaining RP options and working together with the players so everyone's able to enjoy things. Making sure the Glitter Boy could never afford to get his power armor completely repaired is working against a particular player though, which isn't what a GM should be doing.

sure, but part of keeping the setting consistent is that if you get into a lot of fights, you're going to get hit (if you can be clever, so can your enemies), and in rifts, getting hit *at all* basically means you just lost a lot of money. like crazy stupid amounts of money. and that's just for regular armour... you get hit in a glitter boy, you're possibly looking at needing to either go on an adventure to find repair materials, or paying someone to do so, unless you're working for free quebec or something like that.

I agree that specifically keeping someone from being able to get enough money to fully repair their armour is not part of the GM's job. but the world is one where there are a lot of possible threats and where repairing pretty much *anything* is incredibly expensive. as part of the setting, if you're getting into a lot of fights, you probably shouldn't be able to afford it for long unless you're something like a hatchling dragon or have access to a self-renewing force field or similar.

My google-fu is weak tonight. Some time ago I started a thread about how not to be poor and thought it might be useful to link it here.

Oh well. Perhaps someone else can find it. The closest I've come so far is another thread where someone quoted the first thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=128159#p2475039

--flatline

[Tor]

Your statement on dimensions and rule changes is your opinion not cannon. By cannon RUE replaces the orginal main book that is why they no longer print the original RIFTS RPG.

LOL source? Until this becomes the "Ultimate Edition" forum we are allowed to take a RMB-centric perspective too, especially when discussing the history of Rifts.

RUE did not change the setting the time line changes where the results of pre RUE books advancing the story/time line.

Halving rate of fire changes equipment, which does change the setting.

by cannon the Rules in RUE are the rules we use now. If you want to start topics to discuss the original rules that is fine. But as some one just pointed out people are tired of you using it when they are discussing the game as it is now. And claiming alternate dimensions as justification for doing so. By default most topics are about currant cannon.

There is no default, threads need to specify RUE-only or non-RUE otherwise they're all-inclusive.

Perhaps we should drop this since it's detracting form the thread. Feel free to respond to any of the other things I discussed with DOW that you included in your un-cropped quote though.

[Dog_O_War]

That's a pointless as it's very situational; only one suit of Chipwell has a nuclear power supply

My point is that they all have different costs.

That's not a point; it's like saying "aliens of different species are different". It's also a colossal waste of effort to compare every combination of equipment under 250,000cr.

No, but its just as much a over generalization to say that they should NOT be compared.
With out looking at thing actually side to side there is know way to know what the apples to apples comparison IS

Amazingly, I didn't say "do not compare them" I had said that it's a waste of time and in a separate quote I told Tor to provide and do his own analysis. And as you've quoted me saying, there are too many equipment combinations under 250,000cr to make the information digestible. That is; if you were to actually compare all of the combinations, you'd be forgetting the pros and cons of the first one before you got to the 50th.

none of them have better MDC than a Gladius does.

MDC isn't everything.

"'MDC isn't everything' Tor said, when speaking of armour"

MDC in this game allows a person to make mistakes; you missed your shot? No big deal - you've got extra MDC to absorb another hit. Etc. That is the most important thing.

Then by this logic there is only one 'right' suit of armor, and all other suits are wrong because they have the wrong MDC?
No, because, wait for it, MDC isn't everything. MDC is important, so is weight, cost, availability, features, reparability....
Its a gamer fallacy to just look at the damage stat and say HP and DPS are the onlythings that matter, when they aren't the only things that matter.

eliakon, what is with you today? Normally you're not like this. At least, not towards me; I assume something or someone has your blood up.

Because you're saying that by my logic, "there is only one 'right' suit of armor". Well no, by my logic I stated that it's only the most important thing. Because it's armour. And I'll point out that the Gladius has got around 50% more MDC than the highest-rated Chipwell suit in Mercenaries. And it's cheaper. It's got the most important aspect of armour for a cheaper price.

The point I was making is that you can't just throw out a blanket statement like "MDC isn't everything" as if it were some kind of counter-point when you're talking about armour, wherein MDC is the most important aspect. You may wear different armours for different reasons, but if you had the choice between nearly exactly the same armours, albeit one with less MDC and one with more, You're going to pick the one with more 99.9% of the time (there is one instance where you won't. Only one).

Additionally, for purposes of transport, you're better off with a GAW vehicle + body armour for speed and distance, You can get body armours that have more MDC than Chipwell suits for protection, etc. etc.

Please give an example of a body armor and vehicle and which Chipwell suit you are comparing the combo to. I'd like to do a cost-benefit analysis.

Give your own examples if you're gonna do a cost-benefit analysis.

If your the one making the claim that there is a 'better way' then the burden is on you to support it. Tor doesn't have to provide the combos for you.

I'll attribute this to your bad day; he's asking me to provide examples for a cost-benefit analysis that he wants to do. He's not asking me to do the analysis, whereby, I am not being tasked with the burden of proof here.

The JA-11 however can apparently do 4d6 (or 2d6) using the exact same amount of energy (30 rounds out of a long e-clip). However, the JA-11 must fire aimed shots with its laser; that's two attacks per shot, meaning that on the economy of attacks, it is only equivalent on its highest-damage setting as the JA-9 is normally.

These weapons give strike bonuses on aimed shots so I figured people would be doing that anyway.

Why would people do that? You have a better chance to hit rolling twice as much than you do rolling half as much with a +3 (1 from weapon, 2 from WP); rolling twice as much ups your odds of hitting significantly. You also produce twice as much critical hits that way.

Basically, aimed shots are very situation-dependent in their use.

Well considering that both of these are supposed to be sniper rifles and not general infantry assault rifles.......

It's still a game and they are just statistics. Besides, "supposed to be" holds no sway over 'how it is'.

Also this is more of a retcon disadvantage via RUE because aimed shots only took 1 action originally giving it double the action-damage economy.

Doesn't matter; that's the rule.

That's the rule, NOW.
When they were created and priced that wasn't the rule though was it?

Well if you ACTUALLY examined what Tor had wrote, the JA-11 under the old rule would be worse off, because it's written in its entry that it specifically requires two actions to aim and shoot; this would mean that regardless of when they were printed, it's taking two actions to shoot. If anything, the JA-9 was nerfed in the case of aimed shots now requiring two actions, and it's still better to use than the JA-11 in economy of actions.

But to answer your question specifically; I stated that it doesn't matter how it was, it only matters how it is. Living in the past when discussing the present is no way to go about life.

The JA-11 does have an ion attack at 3d6, but the range is only 1600 feet and it does not fire in bursts.

Again this is more of a RMB v RUE thing.

Doesn't matter; the new rules trump the old ones. No point in complaining about it.

Again, when the old rifle was made, and priced it was priced as if it had burst capability. So complaining about its price vis-à-vis the lack of burst now is sort of disingenuous.

I'll only point out that what you're saying here is that Tor is complaining about the price in the old and new rules comparison, and you're saying it's disingenuous for him to do so.
I said that there's no point in complaining.

I have a feeling that you meant to say that it's disingenuous for me to say that there's no point in complaining, so I'll address it as if you had.

I'll use an example; an analogy:

Say you had a brick of gold, and in economic hard times your government issued a law which stated that you must sell all your gold to the government (this actually happened in the US in the first half of the 20th century). They were offering you $20 per ounce, so you sold them your brick for $8,760. Then they turn around and adjust the price of gold to $35 dollars per ounce.

You feel ripped off, right? Well you can complain and you can make demands and you can write your member of government at this injustice, but at the end of the day, that's the price of gold now. You were paid for it at the then current price, but as you can see, if you had just waited to sell (even though you were mandated to sell), you could have made more money off of your gold.

What I'm getting at is that major changes can screw things up, and people can feel screwed over because they were banking on something being one way. But this isn't the only instance of this - there are plenty of people who had rifles that were RoF "standard" which under the old rules meant you could burst with it and cause tremendous damage. And then things changed and all of a sudden those rifles and such weren't as good as they used to be. Well that's what happens when there's a change in the rules. So there's no point in complaining about it - adapt to them and move on.

The Ion gun did explicitly fire bursts in RMB which helped to justify the higher cost. If the alternate-dimension incarnation KS presented in RUE does not then I could see that warranting a cost reduction.

Keep your "alternate-dimension incarnation" gibberish out of it.

Alternate Universe, or Ret-Con...the two weapons have different combat stats and the same price tag. Which is the point he is making, that under the new rules its not worth as much, because its being priced at the old utility.

I get the point he's making, but he insists on using stuff like "alternate-dimension incarnation" as if R:UE isn't the current incarnation of Rifts, and instead some different game.

But beyond this; no one is forcing anyone here to buy gear they see as "sucky". In fact, that's what this thread is about; finding cheap gear that isn't crap. And the merits to cheaper gear as opposed to expensively priced stuff. My example is a direct representation of this; that the more expensive JA-11 isn't really worth the extra you pay over other stuff, but with the example of the JA-9, which is in my opinion, a diamond in the rough.

[Dog_O_War]

Using your opinion without cannon support as part of an cannon argument is flawed as by cannon the Rules in RUE are the rules we use now. If you want to start topics to discuss the original rules that is fine. But as some one just pointed out people are tired of you using it when they are discussing the game as it is now. And claiming alternate dimensions as justification for doing so. By default most topics are about currant cannon.

This. Very well said.

Tor, I'll respond to what you write, but only if/when you consider and adhere to the above statement. We're discussing current rules, not old ones. It's important to take this into account.

[kaid]

Most GMs I've played with didn't let us accumulate much money. With one I started turning down mercenary work because he wasn't paying enough to refill my eclips. And he thought it was game breaking when I started salvaging bionics.
Another GM told me that his philosophy is that if you can afford to keep your glitterboy fully repaired he isn't doing his job (I actually got pretty rich in that campaign though playing a crazy who would follow power armor into the wilderness and snipe them when they came out since I slept less than they did. Then sell their undamaged pa).

A GM who doesn't know his job then if he thinks that.

That is a GM that is going to find his entire group switching to magic users who cheese the hell out of magical shielding and TW weapons.

[Dog_O_War]

That's a pointless as it's very situational; only one suit of Chipwell has a nuclear power supply

My point is that they all have different costs.

That's not a point; it's like saying "aliens of different species are different".

Cost is a point, otherwise we could just condemn the majority of PA for being inferior the the Silverhawk used by the CCW.

You were saying "I wouldn't spend money", you introduced cost as a factor.

No I didn't. This statement does not have to do with cost; it has to do with value.

It's also a colossal waste of effort to compare every combination of equipment under 250,000cr.

I'm not asking for every combination, just 1 example to start with for evaluation to support your claim.

And what does one example prove? I could give you the best combination and it just stands as a skewed point of view.

Taking a Gladius and a Naruni weapon that does 2d6x10+ or the equivalent at the discount currently being offered is such an example (doesn't matter what weapon really, just pick one you can get for 100,000 or less with the discount - I'd give you a specific one but I'm at work and haven't memorized all of them and their prices yet).

"'MDC isn't everything' Tor said, when speaking of armour" MDC in this game allows a person to make mistakes; you missed your shot? No big deal - you've got extra MDC to absorb another hit. Etc. That is the most important thing.

Other factors that are important include your ability to prowl or climb or the speed you can move at or if the armor creates penalties to combat rolls if your PS is too low.

Tor, powered armour has no prowl or climb penalties (for the most part). What you're stating here only applies to body armour, and even then, none of those other factors are more important than how many hits you can survive. I mean, it's really hard to climb or prowl when you're dead.

If we look at the cost of armor in RMB

How about instead we look at the cost of armour in R:UE?

Give your own examples if you're gonna do a cost-benefit analysis.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here exactly, you were putting down Chipwell so I figured you had an example of what you could buy for the cost of a Chipwell suit that could surpass it.

You said you were going to do a cost-benefit analysis; so do one. Do it based on your own initiative - you don't need me to feed you information. I mean, if I was willing to do that, I might as well do the analysis myself, but as I stated previously - it's a colossal waste of time.

Why would people do that? You have a better chance to hit rolling twice as much than you do rolling half as much with a +3 (1 from weapon, 2 from WP); rolling twice as much ups your odds of hitting significantly. You also produce twice as much critical hits that way. Basically, aimed shots are very situation-dependent in their use.

Firing an initial surprise attack is one situation where you would want to make an aimed shot because time isn't a factor. This is one major thing with snipers who might want to relocate after the first shot.

I literally said that aimed shots are very situation-dependent, did I not?

I'm not sure what you mean about doubling criticals, that would still only double the individual shot, not both shots fired over 2 actions.

When you roll twice as much, every number comes up twice as often, which means you're doubling the number of critical hits you inflict.

Similarly confused about what you mean regarding better chance of hitting, more damage will be landed over time firing 4d6 every 2 actions with higher bonuses compared to 2d6 every action with inferior bonuses.

No. You need to do your own math, but for arguments' sake, here it is:

At level 1, with no outside bonuses to strike, you are hitting 65% of the time (8-20). Over the course of 20 attacks, you hit 13 times. One of those is a critical.

At level 1, with +3 to strike (weapon plus aim) you are hitting 80% of the time (5-20). Over the course of 20 attacks, you hit 16 times. One of those is a critical.

But because you're shooting twice as fast as the guy with +3 to strike, you actually hit 26 times with your +0 to strike, and two of those hits are criticals.

The ammo efficiency (lower e-clip recharge costs, able to go longer without reloading) is also an issue.

It can be; the efficiency between these two weapons does show that the JA-11 is better, but overall the JA-9's efficiency is better than average when compared to all energy rifles.

[Nightmask]

Most GMs I've played with didn't let us accumulate much money. With one I started turning down mercenary work because he wasn't paying enough to refill my eclips. And he thought it was game breaking when I started salvaging bionics.
Another GM told me that his philosophy is that if you can afford to keep your glitterboy fully repaired he isn't doing his job (I actually got pretty rich in that campaign though playing a crazy who would follow power armor into the wilderness and snipe them when they came out since I slept less than they did. Then sell their undamaged pa).

A GM who doesn't know his job then if he thinks that.

That is a GM that is going to find his entire group switching to magic users who cheese the hell out of magical shielding and TW weapons.

I wouldn't use quite such a negative term to describe it, more that it would cause some if not all of them to gravitate towards classes where repairs of equipment are minimal to non-existent since a natural MDC creature would just heal to full MDC without costly 'repairs', and of course mages tend to have MDC shields they can create and renew as often as they has PPE available and spells that can't break and don't need replacement to use for dealing damage.

[kaid]

Most GMs I've played with didn't let us accumulate much money. With one I started turning down mercenary work because he wasn't paying enough to refill my eclips. And he thought it was game breaking when I started salvaging bionics.
Another GM told me that his philosophy is that if you can afford to keep your glitterboy fully repaired he isn't doing his job (I actually got pretty rich in that campaign though playing a crazy who would follow power armor into the wilderness and snipe them when they came out since I slept less than they did. Then sell their undamaged pa).

A GM who doesn't know his job then if he thinks that.

That is a GM that is going to find his entire group switching to magic users who cheese the hell out of magical shielding and TW weapons.

I wouldn't use quite such a negative term to describe it, more that it would cause some if not all of them to gravitate towards classes where repairs of equipment are minimal to non-existent since a natural MDC creature would just heal to full MDC without costly 'repairs', and of course mages tend to have MDC shields they can create and renew as often as they has PPE available and spells that can't break and don't need replacement to use for dealing damage.

This at one point was a running gag of our campaign that got a bit to repair pricey. People when their characters died wound up making magic users and we joked about them being special candies due to how many layers they had on of protection. When some happy middle ground is found you wind up with a healthy mix of characters. If repairs are to cheap you wind up with really tech heavy groups and if repairs are to pricey you wind up with all psychics and magic users and random DB.

[eliakon]

That's a pointless as it's very situational; only one suit of Chipwell has a nuclear power supply

My point is that they all have different costs.

That's not a point; it's like saying "aliens of different species are different".

Cost is a point, otherwise we could just condemn the majority of PA for being inferior the the Silverhawk used by the CCW.

You were saying "I wouldn't spend money", you introduced cost as a factor.

No I didn't. This statement does not have to do with cost; it has to do with value.

I am having a hard time seeing how saying that something has no value, in a discussion about how its cost is part of its value can not be about its value

"'MDC isn't everything' Tor said, when speaking of armour" MDC in this game allows a person to make mistakes; you missed your shot? No big deal - you've got extra MDC to absorb another hit. Etc. That is the most important thing.

Other factors that are important include your ability to prowl or climb or the speed you can move at or if the armor creates penalties to combat rolls if your PS is too low.

Tor, powered armour has no prowl or climb penalties (for the most part). What you're stating here only applies to body armour, and even then, none of those other factors are more important than how many hits you can survive. I mean, it's really hard to climb or prowl when you're dead.[/quote]
Again your picking one stat (MDC) and saying that its the ONLY stat that matters. And then saying that anything that doesn't have the most of that is bad.
By this logic then the ONLY good armor is Hecates living bio-armor from Pantheons. All other suits have less MDC, so they must obviously be worse and thus worthless. Nevermind that it is increadibly rare and costs billions, it has the best stats and that's all that matters right?
Or perhaps raw MDC is not the only thing that is important in a suit of armor....

[flatline]

Tor, powered armour has no prowl or climb penalties (for the most part).

That's one heck of an oversight.

We've never allowed prowl in power armor but I've never bothered to wonder if that was a house rule or if it was supported by canon.

Anything with turbines is going to make tons of noise. If you assume that Rifts reactors have turbines in them, then they're going to make noise.

Anything weighing hundreds of points with metal feet is going to make noise when walking.

Edit: corrected the quote attribution (sorry!)

--flatline

[Dog_O_War]

You were saying "I wouldn't spend money", you introduced cost as a factor.

No I didn't. This statement does not have to do with cost; it has to do with value.

I am having a hard time seeing how saying that something has no value, in a discussion about how its cost is part of its value can not be about its value

I was addressing him stating that "I wouldn't spend money". Such a statement did not have to do with prices (re:cost) it had to do with value (re:objects' worth to the purchaser).

There is a difference.

"'MDC isn't everything' Tor said, when speaking of armour" MDC in this game allows a person to make mistakes; you missed your shot? No big deal - you've got extra MDC to absorb another hit. Etc. That is the most important thing.

Other factors that are important include your ability to prowl or climb or the speed you can move at or if the armor creates penalties to combat rolls if your PS is too low.

Tor, powered armour has no prowl or climb penalties (for the most part). What you're stating here only applies to body armour, and even then, none of those other factors are more important than how many hits you can survive. I mean, it's really hard to climb or prowl when you're dead.

Again your picking one stat (MDC) and saying that its the ONLY stat that matters. And then saying that anything that doesn't have the most of that is bad.
By this logic then the ONLY good armor is Hecates living bio-armor from Pantheons. All other suits have less MDC, so they must obviously be worse and thus worthless. Nevermind that it is increadibly rare and costs billions, it has the best stats and that's all that matters right?
Or perhaps raw MDC is not the only thing that is important in a suit of armor....

eliakon, you have to take the whole context here; I addressed this part to you in another post, because you asked this question already:

Because you're saying that by my logic, "there is only one 'right' suit of armor". Well no, by my logic I stated that it's only the most important thing. Because it's armour. And I'll point out that the Gladius has got around 50% more MDC than the highest-rated Chipwell suit in Mercenaries. And it's cheaper. It's got the most important aspect of armour for a cheaper price.

The point I was making is that you can't just throw out a blanket statement like "MDC isn't everything" as if it were some kind of counter-point when you're talking about armour, wherein MDC is the most important aspect. You may wear different armours for different reasons, but if you had the choice between nearly exactly the same armours, albeit one with less MDC and one with more, You're going to pick the one with more 99.9% of the time (there is one instance where you won't. Only one).

[Dog_O_War]

Tor, powered armour has no prowl or climb penalties (for the most part).

That's one heck of an oversight.

We've never allowed prowl in power armor but I've never bothered to wonder if that was a house rule or if it was supported by canon.

Anything with turbines is going to make tons of noise. If you assume that Rifts reactors have turbines in them, then they're going to make noise.

Anything weighing hundreds of points with metal feet is going to make noise when walking.

--flatline

I said that, not eliakon.

There are powered armours that you basically can't prowl in; the SAMAS states that you can hear its engines from a mile off, but otherwise PA has no prowl penalty.

I mean hell, some giant robots are so silent that the operator themselves does not even need the skill and they can do it themselves (I'm looking at you, Spider-Scout Walker).


EDIT: I just wanted to say that it is my personal opinion that they should have one listed. But as far as the RAW is concerned, they do not.