Psi-Warriors, Psi-Swords, and Cyber Knights

[Raze_7]

In RUE, the Cyber-Knight gets the Psi-Sword Power automatically. It is also said, on another Palladium site, that Cyber-Knight gets a slight edge over a Mind Melter if they are both using the Psi-Sword, even though the Cyber-Knight has cybernetics.

However, in Psyscape, the Psi-Warrior (we're assuming 3rd level, since, for this scenario, he has to be able to use the psi-sword) gets specific training soley in the use of the Psi-Sword and Shield, and has sufficient control over it to be able to shape it and change its form from when he first uses it, which is something that only level 2-3 Cyber-Knights are able to do. Even further, the Psi-Warrior gets bonuses with the Psi-Sword, which I didn't find when looking at the Cyber-Knight, and also gets intuitive combat.


Based on this, I predict that, in a 1 v 1 duel, the Psi-Warrior would defeat a Cyber-Knight, assuming that each of them managed to save against the other's attempts to use psionics to disrupt their attacks, and that they were focused too much on combat to attempt to buff themselves.

However, I don't know if the Cyber-Knight gets any cybernetics that improve his swordfighting, or how additional cybernetics impact his psionics. I assume that they follow the same rules. Will someone clarify this for me?

Finally, on a completely different note, the Psi-Warrior gets the Psi-Shield ability at level 2, with a disclaimer that reads, in essence, "The Psi-Warrior can attempt to parry energy blasts with the shield, but with no bonuses, and a penalty of minus 3." However, with the Intuitive Combat Psionic, the character can attempt to parry any attack (including energy blasts), and gets no penalties, and even a few bonuses, I think. Which wins, the no-bonuses, -3 penalty, or the no penaties, +X bonus?

[Secondhand Smoke]

Unless my understanding is wrong, it takes a psi warrior an entire melee round to summon a psi sword.
A cyber knight does it as a free action? An action?

Basically the psi warrior is dead before he even creates a psi blade

[eliakon]

Most people forget to read the entire Intuitive Combat power.....
"NOTE: The psychic is unable to use any other psionic power, including Mind Block while this power is in use."

It can not be used with any other psionic power. So EITHER Intuitive Combat OR Psi Shield. Not both.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Unless my understanding is wrong, it takes a psi warrior an entire melee round to summon a psi sword.
A cyber knight does it as a free action? An action?

Basically the psi warrior is dead before he even creates a psi blade

A Cyberknight wouldn't attack someone unarmed with an MD weapon. While the CK can summon his sword instantly and use it to defend himself. In a duel he's not going to summon it instantly and shove it through the face of an unarmed man and then laugh about it.

At least in theory. Part of being a CK is their code. They don't roll that way.

[Dog_O_War]

Based on this, I predict that, in a 1 v 1 duel, the Psi-Warrior would defeat a Cyber-Knight, assuming that each of them managed to save against the other's attempts to use psionics to disrupt their attacks, and that they were focused too much on combat to attempt to buff themselves.

Cyber Knights get an MDC cybernetic armour, I believe it's about 50 MDC to start.

Do Psi Warriors get such a thing? Because this would be extending the life of a Cyber Knight by 4-5 hits suffered, assuming they were not called shots (but that opens a different can of worms).

So assuming they are both unbuffed, either naked or in the same armour the Cyber Knight has a massive 50 MDC over his opponent. That makes all the difference in the world.

[Pepsi Jedi]

In RUE, the Cyber-Knight gets the Psi-Sword Power automatically. It is also said, on another Palladium site, that Cyber-Knight gets a slight edge over a Mind Melter if they are both using the Psi-Sword, even though the Cyber-Knight has cybernetics.

However, in Psyscape, the Psi-Warrior (we're assuming 3rd level, since, for this scenario, he has to be able to use the psi-sword) gets specific training soley in the use of the Psi-Sword and Shield, and has sufficient control over it to be able to shape it and change its form from when he first uses it, which is something that only level 2-3 Cyber-Knights are able to do. Even further, the Psi-Warrior gets bonuses with the Psi-Sword, which I didn't find when looking at the Cyber-Knight, and also gets intuitive combat.


Based on this, I predict that, in a 1 v 1 duel, the Psi-Warrior would defeat a Cyber-Knight, assuming that each of them managed to save against the other's attempts to use psionics to disrupt their attacks, and that they were focused too much on combat to attempt to buff themselves.

However, I don't know if the Cyber-Knight gets any cybernetics that improve his swordfighting, or how additional cybernetics impact his psionics. I assume that they follow the same rules. Will someone clarify this for me?

Finally, on a completely different note, the Psi-Warrior gets the Psi-Shield ability at level 2, with a disclaimer that reads, in essence, "The Psi-Warrior can attempt to parry energy blasts with the shield, but with no bonuses, and a penalty of minus 3." However, with the Intuitive Combat Psionic, the character can attempt to parry any attack (including energy blasts), and gets no penalties, and even a few bonuses, I think. Which wins, the no-bonuses, -3 penalty, or the no penaties, +X bonus?

To answer the over all question, one has to look at the creation and evolution of the classes in question. When the CK was first developed, it was the CK and the Mind Melter were pretty much the only ones that could create a Psi-sword. The CK got the bonus as he got it at first level and thus was unique (Or supposed to be.) As the game started. You had to 'earn' three levels before the Mind Melter could make one. Then suddenly the Mind Melter's was stronger. Which never made any sense really other than a strange attempt at 'game balance' which failed.

As the game progressed and years passed the Psi Sword became less unique. Psi-scape came as the 12th book in the Worldbook line and what.. about 15th to 18th total in the books produced for Rifts. More and more and more things were added. The psi Warrior being one of them.

Now.. when it was just the Rifts Core book... Cyberknights were your Jedi stand ins. Not 'quite' jedi, but that's the spot they took. Noble with energy swords and psionic powers but able to use tech. Wandering knights of the round types. You know. Jedi.

Book after book was added and if you get all the way to Psyscape, you see that the Psy warrior was another attempt at making a Rifts Jedi. Thing is, Jedi at first level would be crazy strong. So they spread it out over a pretty significant level climb.You don't get it all at once. You grow into it. Which... not the worst idea in the world.

That said now the Psi Warrior is more Jedi than the first Jedi analog that was in the game. This is further complicated when the Cyberknights got their revamp and retconned to be Some what jedi-ish, but now more focused to fighting technological foes. WHich, still has it's slot in the game and is very useful, but is a bit different from the Jedi Analog that they first were.

There's a rather large section on the psisword in the Cyberknight books and all, but they're still weaker. With out house rule.... or a HIGH level CK... it's better for them to use a vibro blade or (my personal choice) The Wilks Laser sword. Which is, if you look at it. A light saber.

Personally our groups have house ruled the CK's sword from the start to bring it up to at the MINIMUM of equal to the Mind Melters (As the CK was always stated to be the masters of the Psi Sword.) We usually (Depending on group) have it be a bit -stronger- than the mind melters for that reason. Mind melters have plenty of other bonuses. There's no reason their psiswords are default, stronger than the class that the power was invented for.

That or they just use the Wilks Laser Sword. 5D6Md on a melee weapon is hard to top.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Unless my understanding is wrong, it takes a psi warrior an entire melee round to summon a psi sword.
A cyber knight does it as a free action? An action?

Basically the psi warrior is dead before he even creates a psi blade

A Cyberknight wouldn't attack someone unarmed with an MD weapon. While the CK can summon his sword instantly and use it to defend himself. In a duel he's not going to summon it instantly and shove it through the face of an unarmed man and then laugh about it.

At least in theory. Part of being a CK is their code. They don't roll that way.

Actually the code says not to use MDC weapons aginst SDC armed opponents. they can use SDC weapons--cyber knight should get a neural mace

[masslegion]

Unless my understanding is wrong, it takes a psi warrior an entire melee round to summon a psi sword.
A cyber knight does it as a free action? An action?

Basically the psi warrior is dead before he even creates a psi blade

A Cyberknight wouldn't attack someone unarmed with an MD weapon. While the CK can summon his sword instantly and use it to defend himself. In a duel he's not going to summon it instantly and shove it through the face of an unarmed man and then laugh about it.

At least in theory. Part of being a CK is their code. They don't roll that way.

Actually the code says not to use MDC weapons aginst SDC armed opponents. they can use SDC weapons--cyber knight should get a neural mace

I guess the question is, would a CK attack someone while they we're reloading a MD rifle, pistol, or other MD weapon? It may seem to be unsportsmanlike or somehow unbecoming of a CK, but if it was a true battle with life an death on the line, I could see a CK attacking someone summoning a psi sword. After all they are armed with a MD weapon. The weapon is just being summoned/loaded. In the case of a duel, it would be unbecoming, underhanded, and not very civilized.


Edit: first sentence needed a ?

[Mack]

Well, I always viewed it like this:

Combat starts...
MM action 1 - starts summoning Psi-Sword.
CK action 1 - says "Please don't do that."

MM action 2 - continues to summon Psi-Sword.
CK action 2 - says "Really, please."

MM action 3 - continues to summon Psi-Sword, he starts to sweat from the strain.
CK action 3 - says "This isn't going to turn out well, for you."

MM action 4 - continues to summon Psi-Sword, sweat begins trickle down his face.
CK action 4 - says "Sigh... I've given you all the warning I can You're not leaving me much choice here."

MM action 5 - continues to summon Psi-Sword, sweat is stinging his eyes.
CK action 5 - Ignites Psi-Sword and places it next to MM's throat. "If you complete that sword...."

MM action 6 - spends last action on the summoning, hand starts to glow. Will be ready at the start of next melee.
CK action 6 - CK rears back, Psi-Sword vanishes from his hand, and he cold-cocks the MM in the head.

MM is sprawled across the ground counting his teeth.

CK: "Next time I won't put the Sword away first." Kicks sand on the MM. Takes the MM's girlfriend to dinner.

CK's do have a code, but they are not Saints nor robots.
While I was a bit humorous there at the end, I could see a CK justifying the death blow as unavoidable.

[Tor]

or paired N-maces...

Hey since the super Psi can run out of duration... does that mean a Cyber-knight (honorable ones anyway who obey the code) will pause combat for 15 seconds while a Mind Melter dueling them recreates their Psi-Sword?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Unless my understanding is wrong, it takes a psi warrior an entire melee round to summon a psi sword.
A cyber knight does it as a free action? An action?

Basically the psi warrior is dead before he even creates a psi blade

A Cyberknight wouldn't attack someone unarmed with an MD weapon. While the CK can summon his sword instantly and use it to defend himself. In a duel he's not going to summon it instantly and shove it through the face of an unarmed man and then laugh about it.

At least in theory. Part of being a CK is their code. They don't roll that way.

Actually the code says not to use MDC weapons aginst SDC armed opponents. they can use SDC weapons--cyber knight should get a neural mace

I guess the question is, would a CK attack someone while they we're reloading a MD rifle, pistol, or other MD weapon? It may seem to be unsportsmanlike or somehow unbecoming of a CK, but if it was a true battle with life an death on the line, I could see a CK attacking someone summoning a psi sword. After all they are armed with a MD weapon. The weapon is just being summoned/loaded. In the case of a duel, it would be unbecoming, underhanded, and not very civilized.


Edit: first sentence needed a ?

Well the thing is, if the other guy is spending 15 seconds getting his weapon out, you're not 'in' life and death combat for that point in time. Could a CK punch him in the head? Sure.

Could the CK subdue him or something? Sure.

Would a CK use a mega damage light saber and cut off his head? .... I don't think so. They won't attack someone with a psi sword who's not equal to the attack.

Pragmatic ones will certainly punch a guy in the face and kick his butt that way (In theory. If you're getting in an MD sword fight. Chances are you're in MD armor and being punched isn't going to work.)

In short, even though it's not "Tactically thinking" it's likely that if an opponent is summoning a psi sword, many CK's will let them do so. Salute, -then- fight. I.E. Yes, they'd wait, and let the guy get his sword out, before starting the duel.

If it's in the middle of battle with 30 guys, chances are the CK is going to use that melee to be enguaging someone else worthy of the blade, but one on one, the CK's are 'supposed' to be honorable enough to duel, the right way. That is, with honor. You let the other guy get the sword out then you dance. You don't jump him while he's drawing.

[Secondhand Smoke]

I take it none of you have had to face an NPC miscreant rogue cyber knight....

[Nightmask]

Left Duelists out of consideration, since they also train for and develop a psi-sword.

[Tor]

If a Psi-Warrior is trying to focus on making a psi-sword a cyber-knight could probably just tackle them or body flip them and disrupt it, right?

[Secondhand Smoke]

If a Psi-Warrior is trying to focus on making a psi-sword a cyber-knight could probably just tackle them or body flip them and disrupt it, right?

Or he could walk up to him and tickle him.

[Secondhand Smoke]

As a side note, has anyone made a falconoid cyber knight?

I was struck by a moment of inspiration upon going through south america 2 again.

[Secondhand Smoke]

Auto dodge cs troops whilst flying, swoop down with dual psi blades for the attack

[Whiskeyjack]

I never really read through the description of the Psi-Sword under Super. I didn't realize how powerful it actually is at high levels, and how much it completely outshines the Cyber Knights. I think I may change the additional damage under the CK to +2D6 at each increment. It still won't be as powerful as a Mind Melter, but it will be better, and should still keep the game balanced.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah, when you look at them side by side, it doesn't make alot of sense. The CK are built up to be _____ THE ABSOLUTE MASTERS OF THE PSI SWORD _________

but other than the instant draw, they fall far behind the 'standard' Psisword.

We've house ruled that from the start

To just pull even with a wilks laser sword, (5D6) the CK would have to be 12th lvl. TO better the laser sword you'd have to top out at 15th.

Edit: Just to show the difference, as we all know its 'different' but seeing them together makes it dramatic

CK: Gets it instant. 1st lvl
Other: (Usually Mind melter but a few other classes can now get it) Receives it at 3rd lvl. Costs: 30 ISP, 5 minutes per lvl (This should be noted that at 3rd lvl, the minimum they can use it they have a duration of 15 minutes, or 60 melees. Where in you're going to have a minimum of 240 melee actions... and it only gets bigger as you lvl up.

ok . Damage per level. This is where it's dramatic.

CK: 1: 1D6,..... 3: 2D6 ..................6: 3D6 .................. 9: 4D6 ........12: 5D6 ........15: 6D6
Other: .................3: 4D6 .. 4:6D6 ................7:8D6 .........9: 10D6 .......12:12D6 ......15: 14D6

When you look at it like that, how a lvl 3 "other' Starts with a Psi Sword equal to a lvl 9 CK, and t lvl 9, you're two and a half times as strong, and so on and so on.... it looks pretty dramatic.

The only thing I can think, is that at 3rd lvl, the CK gets the ability to make 'two' psi swords. With paired that could effectivly double his damage. WHich would bring him up to par at lvl 3, fall behind till 6, and then fall further and further behind as you go on up.

Still we've never played it that way.

When we've done it, we start the CK at 3d6. +1D6 at lvl 2, that ties it with the "Other" Psi sword. at lvl 3 Then +2D6 every two levels. So it ends up looking like this.

CK: 1: 3D6,... 2: 4D6 .......... 4: 6D6 ..........6: 8D6 ...........8: 10D6 .... 10: 12D6 ....12: 14D6 ........15: --
Other: ...................3: 4D6 ... 4:6D6 ................7:8D6 ...................9: 10D6 .............12:12D6 ......15: 14D6


This way, the CK starts with a moderately strong Psi Sword, then at 2nd lvl it's a little stronger than the "other's" and stays a bit stronger than the others (Roughly 2D6) All the way up the chain. That shows the CK's additional training and mastery. Instead of.. well if you look at it with RAW, a lvl15 CK only ties a lvl 4, 'Other'. And that's just absurd to me.

That said, we also house rule that the 'Other" Doesn't take 15 frigging seconds to make his either. Geeze. They're paying the ISP, the power turns on. Click.

[eliakon]

Where does it say that CKs are "Absolute masters of the Psi-Sword"?

(I am guessing it is right next to where it says that 'fair play' means that good guys must be suicidal)

[Nightmask]

Where does it say that CKs are "Absolute masters of the Psi-Sword"?

(I am guessing it is right next to where it says that 'fair play' means that good guys must be suicidal)

Yes I was fairly sure if anyone was said to be the master of the Psi-Sword it was the Mind Melter (at least in regards to it being the most powerful in their hands), although they certainly tried to increase them significantly for Cyber-Knights in the book on Cyber-Knights.

[Shark_Force]

if you gave everyone else psi-sword with no need to concentrate for a melee round, no wonder other psi-sword users are outshining them. the psi-sword power is basically useless unless you know there's going to be a fight and your enemy doesn't. the cyber-knight's psi-sword is ready for use instantl, and is therefore much more useful in situations where you're likely to suddenly develop a need for a melee weapon to be in your hands. the rest of the time, you probably want to be using a laser rifle anyways (and by the time a mind-melter or most others could get a psi-sword, they could also get super telekinesis, which for 10 ISP can move up to your level - if we're comparing to a psi-sword, minimum 3 - of objects totalling less than 100 lbs within a 300 foot radius of yourself to attack. (for example, 3 vibro-blades that deal 2d6 damage each).

the cyber-knight does have basically the better version of psi-sword, because their version is usable in an emergency, which is pretty much what you call it when your mind melter is fighting something at melee range.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's the thing. They don't outshine them because we've upped the Ck's Psi sword to something more than "In case of emergency and you can't reach your vibro knife, use this" Into their primary melee combat weapon as it's supposed to be. RAW, a CK would be an idiot to use his Psisword, instead of a wilks laser sword, till he was 12th level, and even then he only ties the laser sword. (But free is nice. The laser sword still uses eclips). In the books the high level NPC's and generals are level 12. It's supposed to take you years to get to that level in game. Not a common occurance. To be honest, our games rarely last that long. People die IC, or the game breaks up far before we get to lvl 12.

The simple act of upping the damage to be competitive, ensures that the cyber knight actually USES the Psi sword, instead of it being a surprise back up weapon. (Like you've indicated and others have before). All the depictions of CK's have them with their psiswords, doing their knightly thing. (Or tomahawks) Yes they could use laser rifles (and I'm sure they do) but that's not the iconic image. As written they're not 'Guns blazing commandos' with a back up weak weak light saber". So we house ruled them to maintain the iconic image and their Jedi roots. Keeps the fun in the class.

Other offensive psi powers don't require you to have a full melee to hide and get out of the bag. You spend the ISP and the power happens. This is a sword. As pointed out, if it takes you a full round uninterrupted to even use the thing, it's limited in use. (Unless whom/whatever you want to use it on has the honor to let you take your time there.)

So, once we upped the Cyberknight's sword to be viable, we changed the other. Seems like a much bigger deal than it is. Psi Warriors and Cyberknights tend to be on the same side so them fighting doesn't happen often. Neither of which are thick on the ground. So it happens even less. Mind Melters, as even you've pointed out, often have other options than getting into a sword fight with a cyberknight (Not a wise course of action).

As written in the books, the non Cyberknight psisword... is a strange thing. Enormously powerful (especially as you level) but usage is .. complicated. Sure if you know the fight is coming you turn it on and just 'keep' it on. Combat rarely lasts 15 full minutes in game. so you just keep it in your hand and do other stuff and if push comes to shove you use it. Or you summon it behind closed doors or in concealment then jump into battle.

That full melee summon time is just strange as per the rules. You can work around it, but why do you have to when you don't for all the other powers.

Our games it rarely comes up. I can't remember the last time somone played a plain jane mind melter. We had some as bad guys, back in the 90s, but have used them already and moved on to new baddies. So it's sort of a non issue.

[Dog_O_War]

That's the thing. They don't outshine them because we've upped the Ck's Psi sword to something more than "In case of emergency and you can't reach your vibro knife, use this" Into their primary melee combat weapon as it's supposed to be. RAW, a CK would be an idiot to use his Psisword, instead of a wilks laser sword, till he was 12th level, and even then he only ties the laser sword.

No. That's pure conjecture.

First, you can't parry anything with a Wilk's laser sword.

Second, it costs money to run.

Third, its damage is "laser" making it one of the most resistible damages the game has to offer.

Fourth, the Wilk's laser sword is an object, and as such can be disarmed and destroyed.

Fifth, you can't shape a Wilk's laser sword, meaning you cannot exploit that incredible tidbit of an oversight.

The apex of this game isn't "whomever has the highest damage wins" it's "whomever can exploit the most advantages wins". And the Wilk's laser sword by itself is not a game-winning piece.


And for a demonstration of such, you can pit two such swordsmen against one-another; one is able to parry his attacker, and in doing so does damage to said attacker (that would be the Wilk's laser sword guy), meanwhile the laser swordman cannot parry and risks damage when he attacks because his opponent has an indestructible weapon, meaning that he cannot destroy it with the laser blade. You factor in damage suffered from parries and all of a sudden it's really just a poor choice in comparison. I will only mention that it's great against some opponents, and can be abused itself, but on its own, it may as well just be a gun with a tiny range. And in that case, there are again better options.

I mean hell, if you're gonna use what amounts to a firearm in combat, you may as well benefit from the massive penalty to dodge/parry in close-quarters, but you're not even getting that by wielding the Wilk's laser sword.

[42dragon]

My question is why do you think? A free of cost, instant Psi-Sword should/must be able to out damage one that requires a heavy ISP cost and heavy time component. This is one of those few things Rift's has seen fit to balance fairly accurately IMO.

[Whiskeyjack]

One of the strange things with the full melee to summon, is that the companion Psi-shield can be summoned instantly.
Even the books themselves portray the psi-sword as being much more powerful. Erin Tarns CK protector destroys a small troop of CS including power armour in a matter of seconds with it. Even though it should have only been doing I think 5D6 damage.

[Incriptus]

Question: Why do we believe that the 15 seconds of concentration to summon a Psi-Sword, requires the summoner to take no other actions? Perhaps the Psi-Warrior can use his "side arm" vibro-sword while waiting?

----

I too have found it difficult to square the fact that "in story" Cyber-Knights use Psi-Swords, "mechanically" it is often inferior to using a different sword. A simple vibro-sword is more effective until level 3. Later it is still inferior to a few TW weapons, other magic weapons, or the wilks laser sword.

One idea is to simply boost the damage to "normal" psi-sword levels, which more or less solves the problem.

Another Idea I was playing with was to introduce the idea of Psi Sword Reinforcement. If the Cyber-Knight has a different melee weapon in hand he can reinforce it with his Psi-Sword ability. This will cause the weapon to do either the weapon's base damage plus 1D6 or the damage of the Psi-Sword which ever is greater.

Not only does this solve the problem with low level Cyber-Knights not wanting to use the Psi-Sword, it also solves the problem of the High Level Cyber-Knight who owns a Rune Sword find his Psi-Sword relegated to a back up, or secondary weapon

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd say that it's pretty tough to concentrate on one thing while you're also sword-fighting.

[Dog_O_War]

Question: Why do we believe that the 15 seconds of concentration to summon a Psi-Sword, requires the summoner to take no other actions? Perhaps the Psi-Warrior can use his "side arm" vibro-sword while waiting?

Concentration
noun
1. the act of concentrating; the state of being concentrated.
2. exclusive attention to one object; close mental application.

I'd assume the second portion of the definition for concentration has something to do with it, not that the game actually defined what the act of concentrating entails.

[ShadowLogan]

@Raze_7
While the Cyber-Knight doesn't get any bonuses for Psi-Sword use, I'm not sure if what the Psi-Warrior gets are enough to outclass the Cyber Knight (+1attack is essentially canceled out by the CK's bonus, the +1init/+2strike have more impact). In the long haul the Cyber-Knight has lower ISP cost for the Psi-Sword and Psi-Shield (as of RUE/Sot4 they have this at 1/2 cost). A Psi-Warrior does get the benefit of doing more damage than an equal level Cyber-Knight though, but the longer the match goes on, the more ISP has to be spent to maintain the powers, which means the Cyber Knight might actually have the advantage if they can draw the contest out (30 ISP for Psi-Sword and Psi-Shield each, that cuts down the PW's base ISP by about 1/2 potentially, granted a CK doesn't have as much ISP to start either)

The Cyber Knights cybernetics are minimal, so they aren't going to impact his powers, but his implants don't improve their sword fighting either.

getting to the more general topic that has developed though.

15seconds (1 melee) preparatory time is actually pretty fast compared to some of the other powers out there in the Rifts Main book (Dead Pain, Exorcism, Healing Touch, Increased Healing, Induce Sleep, Psychic Diagnosis, Psychic Purification, Psychic Surgery, Resist Fatigue, Ectoplasm, Impervious to Cold/Fire, Astral Projection). Now there are plenty of other powers that don't have prep time to in the Rifts Main Book, they don't have the same potential for damage or cost in ISP. The closest is the PK subpowers, but they are static in damage unlike the Psi-Sword. The Super Psionic Power can also control the damage increments, which the description specifically says the Knight can not do (they also state that about shape/color, something that was later recton w/SoT4/RUE but damage management has been kept consistent).

Damage wise the Cyber-Knights Psi-Sword is akin to a Vibro-Blade knife at level 1 (RMB, not RUE/Sot4 update). At level 3 it is better than a RMB vibro-saber (short sword), and equal to a large vibro-sword or even claws in terms of damage. Later books would expand the vibro-blade selection, but I don't think they really changed the overall impact. Lets keep in mind the vibro-blades have the damage based in part on their size, where the Psi-Sword's damage is not linked to its actual size. Two equal level Cyber-Knights can do the same damage with their respective Psi-Swords, even if one is using a Claymore (huge with reach) and the other is using a Short Sword.

As far back as the Rifts Main Book (and repeated in RUE) the CK version is never said to be as powerful as the Mind Melter's (ie Super Psionic Power) "Lastly, the cyber-knights's psi-sword is not quite as powerful as the mind melter's, but it is still a weapon to be feared." (RMB pg63) The CK Psi-Sword is also said to be quite different than the Super Psi-Sword.

There is nothing in RMB/RUE to suggest that the Cyber Knight is a "Master of the Psi-Sword" either.

[Alrik Vas]

Cyberknight psi swords are pretty good at higher level and if you ask your GM nicely, or roll well, you can be a real prodigy, and if you agree that certain skills I won't mention by name affect MD sword damage, then they're really decent even at level 1.

Instant draw, no ISP cost, shaping capability...unlimited duration...seems strong.

There are a lot of other things you can deal damage with if you need a serious MD spike. a sword is usually a sidearm anyway, you use other, more dangerous weapons on a battlefield.

[Mack]

A few other CyberKnight advantages to consider.

- A CK can summon two Psi-Swords for twice the damage, twice the fun. This gives some options that are simply impracticable for Psi-Warriors or Mind Melters.
- A CK can re-shape his Psi-Sword to whatever weapon is needed for the moment... Axe, Halberd, Spear, Pocketknife. This isn't a game-changing ability but it may grant a distinct tactical advantage.
- A CK is never disarmed. Other classes have to manage their ISP, which an opponent may be able to manipulate. But with a CK, if he's awake then he can instantly pull a MD weapon out of thin air. He is always a lethal threat no matter how close to the end of his rope he gets.

[VR Dragon]

I would have just made it simple.

Their is only one form of psi-sword and they all work the same. No 15 seconds of concentration and the same damage. I can live with this as a player. Does not matter to me if they can summon a psi-sword for no isp and no duration limit, the same can go for their psi-shields. Not like they get uber psionic potential like a mind melter, some access to extra psi powers would be useful to me, never liked the techno mind trick element much. Heck make them all inner eye opened trained like in psyscape. It only makes things interesting to me.

And why don't they get mind block auto defense? I never see any Psi-OCC get or use Mind Block Auto Defense. Seems more useful to me.

[Daniel Stoker]

- A CK can re-shape his Psi-Sword to whatever weapon is needed for the moment... Axe, Halberd, Spear, Pocketknife. This isn't a game-changing ability but it may grant a distinct tactical advantage.

Well so can the Mind Melter and I'd assume the Psi-Warrior would as well.


Daniel Stoker

[eliakon]

- A CK can re-shape his Psi-Sword to whatever weapon is needed for the moment... Axe, Halberd, Spear, Pocketknife. This isn't a game-changing ability but it may grant a distinct tactical advantage.

Well so can the Mind Melter and I'd assume the Psi-Warrior would as well.


Daniel Stoker

Except that the ability to change the sword into non-swords is a CK ability. Its not listed as an ability of the Psi-Sword power, and IS listed as a special power of the CK....so why would either of them have it?

[Mack]

Another thing in the Cyber-Knights favor: Fencing.

Yes, the skill is available to all classes, but given the limited skill selections of Mind Melters and Psi-Warriors neither of those classes is likely to burn a skill on it. With the Cyber-Knights much more generous selection, he's able to invest in Fencing and get more out of his Psi-Sword. Also, Fencing works well with the whole "swordsman" style that's inherent to Cyber-Knights and missing from others, so I see it as a much more likely skill for them to have.

(Note 1 - I consider Fencing something like "WP Advanced Sword." If WP Sword meant a character practiced 3 hours a week at swordplay, then Fencing is the guy who spent 6 hours a week.)
(Note 2 - Not long ago there was a debate regarding the Fencing damage bonus and MD weapons. Let's not rehash that. We can just agree there are bonuses from Fencing and leave the details out.)

[Secondhand Smoke]

One full round to summon.... Crazy, completely unplayable.

Cyber Knights are incredible, people here complaining too much about the damage. Make him a master psi, sorts the damage out and makes the duel more "fair" as they are both master psi.

Make it a psi stalker cyber knight and you have yourself an anti supernatural and anti tech champ. That can bleed a mage dry.

[Daniel Stoker]

Except that the ability to change the sword into non-swords is a CK ability. Its not listed as an ability of the Psi-Sword power, and IS listed as a special power of the CK....so why would either of them have it?

Based on the way the power was written I always thought they could, “Like the Cyber-Kinight, the Mind Melter can change the shape and even the color of the sword to fit his current mood, but unlike the Knight, he can do so from day one.” Emphasis is obviously mine, but it at least to me, reads like they should be able to.


Daniel Stoker

[eliakon]

Except that the ability to change the sword into non-swords is a CK ability. Its not listed as an ability of the Psi-Sword power, and IS listed as a special power of the CK....so why would either of them have it?

Based on the way the power was written I always thought they could, “Like the Cyber-Kinight, the Mind Melter can change the shape and even the color of the sword to fit his current mood, but unlike the Knight, he can do so from day one.” Emphasis is obviously mine, but it at least to me, reads like they should be able to.


Daniel Stoker

Yeah you can make it a short sword, or a long sword, or a katana....or any sword you want. But its still a psi-SWORD.
CKs have the ability to make it a psi-axe, or psi-staff, or psi-what-ever-it-is-they-feel-like.

[Daniel Stoker]

The cyber-knight section says they can change the size, shape, and color and then talks about turning a psi-axe into a psi-sword but based on how the Super Power is written it still seems like you should be able to do the same thing. But I’m going to guess we’re not going to agree here on this ‘tangent’.


Daniel Stoker

[Hotrod]

Unless my understanding is wrong, it takes a psi warrior an entire melee round to summon a psi sword.
A cyber knight does it as a free action? An action?

Basically the psi warrior is dead before he even creates a psi blade

A Cyberknight wouldn't attack someone unarmed with an MD weapon. While the CK can summon his sword instantly and use it to defend himself. In a duel he's not going to summon it instantly and shove it through the face of an unarmed man and then laugh about it.

At least in theory. Part of being a CK is their code. They don't roll that way.

Actually the code says not to use MDC weapons aginst SDC armed opponents. they can use SDC weapons--cyber knight should get a neural mace

I guess the question is, would a CK attack someone while they we're reloading a MD rifle, pistol, or other MD weapon? It may seem to be unsportsmanlike or somehow unbecoming of a CK, but if it was a true battle with life an death on the line, I could see a CK attacking someone summoning a psi sword. After all they are armed with a MD weapon. The weapon is just being summoned/loaded. In the case of a duel, it would be unbecoming, underhanded, and not very civilized.


Edit: first sentence needed a ?

There's a fuzzy line between being honorable and being dumb. A CK isn't going to use his weapon against someone who has no real way to fight back, but if the guy does, the CK shouldn't just wait for his enemy to start shooting before putting him down.

If a CK is intervening in a domestic dispute between two ordinary humans with no MDC weapons, he isn't going to use his psi-sword. If he's in a fight and his enemy pauses to reload, that enemy is fair game. If he's intervening to free some slaves from a bandit who doesn't have his gun drawn, it's a judgment call.

[VR Dragon]

Well according to the psi-sword power described in RUE. "Like the Cyber-Knight, the mind melter can change the shape and even the color of the to fit his current mood. But unlike the Knight, he can do so from day one."

So Mind Melters and CKs can change the shape of their weapon and the color as well. So psi-weapon can be an axe or other weapon as well.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's the thing. They don't outshine them because we've upped the Ck's Psi sword to something more than "In case of emergency and you can't reach your vibro knife, use this" Into their primary melee combat weapon as it's supposed to be. RAW, a CK would be an idiot to use his Psisword, instead of a wilks laser sword, till he was 12th level, and even then he only ties the laser sword.

No. That's pure conjecture.

First, you can't parry anything with a Wilk's laser sword.

Second, it costs money to run.

Third, its damage is "laser" making it one of the most resistible damages the game has to offer.

Fourth, the Wilk's laser sword is an object, and as such can be disarmed and destroyed.

Fifth, you can't shape a Wilk's laser sword, meaning you cannot exploit that incredible tidbit of an oversight.

The apex of this game isn't "whomever has the highest damage wins" it's "whomever can exploit the most advantages wins". And the Wilk's laser sword by itself is not a game-winning piece.


And for a demonstration of such, you can pit two such swordsmen against one-another; one is able to parry his attacker, and in doing so does damage to said attacker (that would be the Wilk's laser sword guy), meanwhile the laser swordman cannot parry and risks damage when he attacks because his opponent has an indestructible weapon, meaning that he cannot destroy it with the laser blade. You factor in damage suffered from parries and all of a sudden it's really just a poor choice in comparison. I will only mention that it's great against some opponents, and can be abused itself, but on its own, it may as well just be a gun with a tiny range. And in that case, there are again better options.

I mean hell, if you're gonna use what amounts to a firearm in combat, you may as well benefit from the massive penalty to dodge/parry in close-quarters, but you're not even getting that by wielding the Wilk's laser sword.

We don't purposefully exploit game mechanics in our games. Or 'abuse' or what ever you want to call it. In our games that's cheating and not welcome at the table.

I know. Lots of players read every written word of the game mechanics for ways to abuse or exploit poorly worded entries. Our game we go by the intent of the things. Not the writer's poorly executed explanation. (If it is indeed poorly worded)

Again. I know alot of players try that stuff. It's common. At our table it'd get you in trouble. If you continued you'd either get twacked with the RUE, or not invited back.

More over the Laser sword parries just fine in our games. It's a light saber. Light sabers parry just fine. Sure they call it a "laser sword' (So do they in Star Wars from time to time, depending on who's describing it) So they don't get sued. We understand not wanting to get a lawsuit over a fictional weapon in an RPG, but it's a light saber. lol

[Pepsi Jedi]

Cyberknight psi swords are pretty good at higher level and if you ask your GM nicely, or roll well, you can be a real prodigy, and if you agree that certain skills I won't mention by name affect MD sword damage, then they're really decent even at level 1.

Instant draw, no ISP cost, shaping capability...unlimited duration...seems strong.

There are a lot of other things you can deal damage with if you need a serious MD spike. a sword is usually a sidearm anyway, you use other, more dangerous weapons on a battlefield.

Out of RAW they're 'not' good untill you're in the 'teens' of levels and very few games last that long. (Unless they start there)

The instant draw is nice, but drawing a vibro blade is just one action. An action you might have done before combat, but if not, it's one action then you have it out.
No ISP cost is cool, but others that 'have' Psi swords, the cost is minimal. It's 5 minutes per level so a minimum of 15 minutes if they can make it. that's a minimum of 60 melees and 240 attacks (Probably more) How many combats in palladium have you been in for 60 straight melees and not be 1)Dead yourself or 2) out of armor to the point you need to retreat? 240 attacks is ALOT of attacks not to have killed your foe or had him kill you.

Shaping capability is... cosmetic. It's neat but other psi sword users can do it too. In palladium there's no 'reach' modifiers on the difference between a short sword or a claymore. The damage is the same on a Psi sword if you make a psi gladius or a psi claymore.

Unlimited duration is nice, but again, the other people that can make psi swords have a very minimum of 60 melees per go. So it's effectivly unlimited. You can't sit around swinging it absently while you watch a movie or something (Well you could at cost) but in combat once it's summoned the non Cyberknight psi sword is effectivly unlimited. Unless your 3rd lvl char is in battles exceeding 240 actions, or 60 melees.

For what it is, and how they're written in the fluf, the mechanics don't remotely approach their damage output via the mechanics in RAW.

As pointed out, Erin Tarn's CK takes out a squad of CS, one of them in a glitter boy killer with his Psi tomahawk in very few strikes. Now the fluff isn't going to recount strikes per melee, and damage rolls or anything but he goes through 3 to 5 guys in full MD armor 100 miniumum and a glitter boy killer, with little effort. That's just not the power as reflected in the mechanics of the book.

As written in the -rules- of the book... the power is little more than "In case of absolute emergency and you've no other option left what so ever, use this"

And the fluff indicates that the Psisword is a major thing for CK's and their main weapon, chosen before others and the symbol of their order and how they roll.

[Pepsi Jedi]

- A CK can re-shape his Psi-Sword to whatever weapon is needed for the moment... Axe, Halberd, Spear, Pocketknife. This isn't a game-changing ability but it may grant a distinct tactical advantage.

Well so can the Mind Melter and I'd assume the Psi-Warrior would as well.


Daniel Stoker

Except that the ability to change the sword into non-swords is a CK ability. Its not listed as an ability of the Psi-Sword power, and IS listed as a special power of the CK....so why would either of them have it?

Second paragraph on page 181 of RUE says they can change the shape to fit their mood, unlike the CK they can do it from day one.

If you mean they can't make 'Psi tomahawks" or what not, that's debatable. It says they can change the shape. If it has to remain a 'sword' or whatever is up for a GM call but....

But again. The shape is cosmetic. It does nothing to damage no matter the shape, so the shape is just that.... a cosmetic thing. Palladium has no bonus for reach between a knife and a sword. You can parry a claymore with a vibro knife, or parry a vibro knife with a claymore. In Palladium Mechanically it's the same.

[Shark_Force]

the psi-sword doesn't have to be their strongest weapon to be a symbol of their organization.

civil war officers carried swords as a sign of their office. while it was possible they might need to use it, it wasn't used because they needed a sword, it was used as a symbol of their authority. they might also have a pistol as a sidearm... again, not because it was more effective than a rifle, which they were not expected to use anyways because they were supposed to be too busy commanding troops.

the cavalry saber is another iconic weapon. and yet, how often do you think that was their weapon of choice? certainly, it was useful in the right situation, but they carried guns and used them most of the time.

even today, some military officers have swords as part of their dress uniform because it is a symbol of their office. not because it's better to have a sword than an assault rifle.

the psi-sword is a symbol of the cyber-knights. it does not have to be their most powerful weapon to do that. it can be a purely situational weapon and do that job just fine. it can be a weapon that they never expect to have to use and which is drastically inferior to just about any weapon they have and still do that job just fine (though the psi-sword is generally speaking not *that* bad).

also, remember that level 1 is pretty much gigantic noob status. at level 1, you're barely out of training, if that... you can very realistically go from level 1 to level 2 in under a month just from using your skills (~2000 xp for level 2, at 25 xp per skill use you're looking at ~80 uses, and it's not too hard to fit in 3+ uses per day. depending on skill, you may use it far more often in fact). in cyberknight terms, a level 1 cyber-knight is someone who was pretty much a squire yesterday and just now finally learned how to create a psi-sword after years of training and practice.

[Prysus]

In RUE, the Cyber-Knight gets the Psi-Sword Power automatically. It is also said, on another Palladium site, that Cyber-Knight gets a slight edge over a Mind Melter if they are both using the Psi-Sword, even though the Cyber-Knight has cybernetics.

Greetings and Salutations. A big factor (in my opinion) are WHICH rules are you using. Since you mentioned RUE, I will be using those rules for this scenario (as they're also the most recent).

Mind Melter (level 3, per your example later): 4D6 psi-sword.
Cyber-Knight (level 3, per your example later): 2D6 per psi-sword (both together equals 4D6), 3D6 if the Cyber-Knight is a Master (for 6D6 dual psi-swords).

However, in Psyscape, the Psi-Warrior (we're assuming 3rd level, since, for this scenario, he has to be able to use the psi-sword) gets specific training soley in the use of the Psi-Sword and Shield, and has sufficient control over it to be able to shape it and change its form from when he first uses it, which is something that only level 2-3 Cyber-Knights are able to do. Even further, the Psi-Warrior gets bonuses with the Psi-Sword, which I didn't find when looking at the Cyber-Knight, and also gets intuitive combat.

People keep pointing out how a Psi-Warrior or Mind Melter has control over the Psi-Sword since day one, and somehow that's more impressive than a Cyber-Knight because they can't do it until level 2. However, if we look at both of their mastery at level 2, the Cyber-Knight's psi-sword is massively more powerful and controlled. Why? Because neither a Psi-Warrior nor a Mind Melter has a Psi-Sword yet. So a Cyber-Knight gains mastery of control at level 2. The other two get it at level 3. Not as impressive as people try to make it sound.

Also, as others have pointed out, you can't use other psionics with Intuitive Combat (per the rules). So if you're using Intuitive Combat (while nice), you can't use a Psi-Sword or a Psi-Shield with it. So if you're using Intuitive Combat in a Psi-Sword battle ... you're going to lose as you have no Psi-Sword to battle with. Note: I personally think that's a horrible limitation on the power, but it is an official limitation.

As for bonuses (at level 3 per your above example and both using a Psi-Sword) ...

Psi-Warrior: +2 on initiative, +1 to pull punch, +1 roll with punch, +2 to strike, +1 attack per melee.
Cyber-Knight: +3 on initiative, +2 to pull punch, +2 to disarm, +1 attack per melee.

So the Cyber-Knight has the edge with initiative and pull punch (disarm won't help much in a Psi-Sword battle), while the Psi-Warrior has the edge with roll with punch and strike. Note: Every Cyber-Knight will also receive a a bonus between +2 and +5 to P.P. making them more likely to have an exceptional P.P. attribute, but this is not a guarantee and depends on luck of the dice. This is a combination of O.C.C. bonuses and Gymnastics (standard skill for all Cyber-Knights). Psi-Warriors are not guaranteed any bonuses.

Based on this, I predict that, in a 1 v 1 duel, the Psi-Warrior would defeat a Cyber-Knight, assuming that each of them managed to save against the other's attempts to use psionics to disrupt their attacks, and that they were focused too much on combat to attempt to buff themselves.

However, I don't know if the Cyber-Knight gets any cybernetics that improve his swordfighting, or how additional cybernetics impact his psionics. I assume that they follow the same rules. Will someone clarify this for me?

This again, depends a lot on the specifics of the scenario. Are they in a duel of honor, allowing the other to prepare and agreeing to not use other psionics or weapons?

For example, if just relying on Saving Throws, the Psi-Warrior could use Telekinesis Super (no save allowed by the book) to just pick up the Cyber-Knight and use him as target practice (the Cyber-Knight could try to shoot with a gun, but unless he has some other useful psionics, that's about all he can do).

At level 1 or 2, the Cyber-Knight would of course have an advantage in a Psi-Sword battle since the other doesn't have one (of course, the CK probably wouldn't use it against him either). At levels 4 or higher, the Cyber-Knight is actually probably better off making this a long range battle. Extend the battle with guns out of the Psi-Warrior's psychic range. The Cyber-Knight will gain bonuses this way while giving the Psi-Warrior penalties (also removing the bonuses from the Psi-Sword use). Note: I'll address the Psi-Warrior Psi-Shield defense in the next section quoted section.

If a non-duel of honor, well, that also gives some advantages to the Cyber-Knight. Yes, I know a Cyber-Knight will be honorable, but as another stated, there's a fine line between honorable and stupid. While the Psi-Warrior is standing there meditating on his Psi-Sword, the Cyber-Knight can easily subdue (without ever forming a Psi-Sword) the other. Subduing doesn't mean killing, and could easily mean putting in an Arm Hold (and applying pressure to cause pain and break the Psi-Warrior's concentration). Or, if the Psi-Warrior has ANY M.D. weaponry, there's really no reason the Cyber-Knight shouldn't use those 15 seconds. Did the enemy have equal or better weapons? Yes. Was the enemy simply too stupid to use said weapons and decided to concentrate on killing the Cyber-Knight instead of simply doing so? Yes. Should the Cyber-Knight be unable to act because the enemy is stupid? In my opinion, no. An enemy is trying to kill you, has M.D. weapons currently available, and the enemy simply decides to use a method that will take 15 seconds to do so doesn't mean the Cyber-Knight has to stand there and wait to be killed.

Setting all that aside, focusing on a Level 3 vs. Level 3, honorable duel using Psi-Swords, with no other weapons or psionics allowed ...

In basic bonuses and raw power, the Psi-Warrior has the edge. There are two advantages the Cyber-Knight yet has at his disposal. First, there's the Cyber-Armor. This does not have any negative effect on psionics (unless the Cyber-Knight starts getting more cybernetics, which would be unwise for the Cyber-Knight) which will help them survive longer (considering equivalent armor). The second advantage is something easily overlooked but ... the Cyber-Knight has Paired Weapons while the Psi-Warrior does not. And when I say that, I mean the Psi-Warrior does not receive Paired Weapons automatically (until level 7 when they receive it via their Hand to Hand) and can NOT select Paired Weapons through their skill set.

Per RUE, only Men at Arms can select Paired Weapons as a skill. Psi-Warriors are classified as a psychic character class. Cyber-Knights (a Men at Arms O.C.C.) receives the skill automatically at level 2. So a Cyber-Knight will have options such as Parry/Simultaneous Attack (which is more or less a guaranteed hit as the Psi-Warrior can't defend against a simultaneous attack) while the Psi-Warrior can deal more damage but still has to get through the Cyber-Knight's defense.

Note: I did not factor in skills such as Fencing or Boxing, as those are skills either party can take (and I'll say either both selected them or neither selected them in the interest of fairness, and cancel the other out).

Finally, on a completely different note, the Psi-Warrior gets the Psi-Shield ability at level 2, with a disclaimer that reads, in essence, "The Psi-Warrior can attempt to parry energy blasts with the shield, but with no bonuses, and a penalty of minus 3." However, with the Intuitive Combat Psionic, the character can attempt to parry any attack (including energy blasts), and gets no penalties, and even a few bonuses, I think. Which wins, the no-bonuses, -3 penalty, or the no penaties, +X bonus?

Well, the Psi-Shield is a problematic ability to say the least (in my opinion). First, RMB and RUE (as well as every printing of the power in between) says that a Psi-Shield cannot parry energy blasts or projectile attacks. Conversion Book One (original and revised) as well as the Psi-Warrior claim that it can. As such, you have to decide which version of the rules you want to use. For the purposes of this scenario, I'll say that a Psi-Shield (in general) cannot parry energy blasts or projectiles, but a Psi-Warrior possesses as a special class ability allowing their version to do so. So they can parry at a -3

Intuitive Combat: Can't use other psionics, so Psi-Shield bonuses are irrelevant and just use the Intuitive Combat bonuses to defend (you'll need something to parry with though).

Psi-Shield: No bonuses (not even HtH or WP bonuses), allowing P.P. bonuses only and suffering a -3 to parry.

Per RUE, there are only penalties to defend at 50 feet or closer (still can't parry, but can dodge without penalty). This grants the Psi-Warrior the option to parry (using no attacks per melee in the process), but at a penalty. This is more advantageous in closer range (within 50 feet), but unless closing in for melee combat not too useful at longer range. At level 4 the Cyber-Knight can dodge the gunfire with better bonuses, and at level 5 can even use an Automatic Dodge (also not using up a melee attack).

So at level 3 is probably the optimum level for the Psi-Warrior in this battle. It gives the Psi-Warrior a ranged advantage as well as a good chance in melee combat. In my opinion, at levels 1 and 2 the Cyber-Knight has the melee advantage (but at a disadvantage at range) while at levels 4 and up the Cyber-Knight will have a ranged advantage (but melee will be very risky).

Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. The main advantage of being able to change a Psi-Sword into a Psi-Axe (for example) is not that the shape will do more or less damage, but due to the W.P. used. So if one of the other weapons has better bonuses (or some type of bonus you need), changing to that type of weapon (if you have the W.P.) is an advantage. So having a Sword and Knife at level 3, the Cyber-Knight could use the Psi-Knife to parry with an extra +1 to parry instead of using the sword (while the Sword will have a +1 to strike over the Knife). That's just one example. Using this combination in the above scenario vs. the Psi-Warrior, the Cyber-Knight could gain a +1 parry bonus over his opponent (because even if a Psi-Warrior can change weapon types, he/she can still only have ONE weapon while the Cyber-Knight can have two to optimize his options). While this is a bit meta-gaming looking at it from a strictly bonus standpoint, the characters trained in these skills should be able to recognize the advantages to using the weapons they're trained in.

[Pepsi Jedi]

the psi-sword doesn't have to be their strongest weapon to be a symbol of their organization.

civil war officers carried swords as a sign of their office. while it was possible they might need to use it, it wasn't used because they needed a sword, it was used as a symbol of their authority. they might also have a pistol as a sidearm... again, not because it was more effective than a rifle, which they were not expected to use anyways because they were supposed to be too busy commanding troops.

the cavalry saber is another iconic weapon. and yet, how often do you think that was their weapon of choice? certainly, it was useful in the right situation, but they carried guns and used them most of the time.

even today, some military officers have swords as part of their dress uniform because it is a symbol of their office. not because it's better to have a sword than an assault rifle.

the psi-sword is a symbol of the cyber-knights. it does not have to be their most powerful weapon to do that. it can be a purely situational weapon and do that job just fine. it can be a weapon that they never expect to have to use and which is drastically inferior to just about any weapon they have and still do that job just fine (though the psi-sword is generally speaking not *that* bad).

also, remember that level 1 is pretty much gigantic noob status. at level 1, you're barely out of training, if that... you can very realistically go from level 1 to level 2 in under a month just from using your skills (~2000 xp for level 2, at 25 xp per skill use you're looking at ~80 uses, and it's not too hard to fit in 3+ uses per day. depending on skill, you may use it far more often in fact). in cyberknight terms, a level 1 cyber-knight is someone who was pretty much a squire yesterday and just now finally learned how to create a psi-sword after years of training and practice.

You're not wrong that it 'could' just be all those things. It's just not how it's presented in the books. It's not presented as a ceremonial badge and nothing more. It's presented as their primary weapon. And a signifigant and major one at that. Not the equivalent of any city rat with a vibro knife.

Cyberknights are jedi analogs for rifts. The PsiSword is their light saber. Can they function with out it? Can they use a laser rifle or somthing? Sure they can. They just arn't shown that way. They're shown as useing the Psi sword as their primary weapon. Even against superior armed people. Again back to Sir Thorpe(Sp?) Using his Psi tomahawk in a fight with multiple CS troops in full MD armor (100 min) And a glitter boy killer. he didn't whip out grenades or a heavy plasma rifle. He used his psi sword (Tomahawk, same thing) , and he won. Including a one shot, beheading of a CS officer in md armor. (Which technically he had no way to do. CS Armor has 100md main body and 70 md in the head. Thorpe is lvl 10 as of CWC (If there's more recent stats. please tell me) and his psi sword does 4D6, and he does not have fencing.)

[Dog_O_War]

We don't purposefully exploit game mechanics in our games. Or 'abuse' or what ever you want to call it.

Oh, so you don't do what is to your advantage? Does that mean that you do everything then that is not to your advantage, or do you just choose your actions randomly, regardless of the outcome?

In our games that's cheating and not welcome at the table.

It's also an opinion of yours, and not a fact as far as the boards are concerned.

I know. Lots of players read every written word of the game mechanics for ways to abuse or exploit poorly worded entries. Our game we go by the intent of the things. Not the writer's poorly executed explanation. (If it is indeed poorly worded)

"the intent of things"
Did you not read the first four reasons as to why the Wilk's laser sword is is inferior? None of those are a fault of the rules. I do note though that you're not addressing them; I am assuming it's because you have no factual counters to them, and instead are intent on just saying, "well I don't cheat" - which I will point out as to why that is a lie, below*.

Again. I know alot of players try that stuff. It's common. At our table it'd get you in trouble. If you continued you'd either get twacked with the RUE, or not invited back.

Well at our table we don't punish people for playing the game presented, and instead choose to correct apparent mistakes instead of excluding people because they don't happen to hold to our particular traditions.

More over the Laser sword parries just fine in our games. It's a light saber. Light sabers parry just fine. Sure they call it a "laser sword' (So do they in Star Wars from time to time, depending on who's describing it) So they don't get sued. We understand not wanting to get a lawsuit over a fictional weapon in an RPG, but it's a light saber. lol

Really? Because the book flat-out states that the intention was that this weapon cannot be used to parry. *Doing otherwise is just the same as cheating; you're creating a rules exploit that did not otherwise exist, and that is not the intent of the game. Literally, there is no better example within the game.

[Pepsi Jedi]

We don't purposefully exploit game mechanics in our games. Or 'abuse' or what ever you want to call it.

Oh, so you don't do what is to your advantage? Does that mean that you do everything then that is not to your advantage, or do you just choose your actions randomly, regardless of the outcome?

No. As I said we don't -purposefully exploit game mechanics in our games, or 'abuse' them-. If it's a clear attempt to exploit the mechanics, it's deemed cheating. That doesn't mean we don't do things to our advantage. We just don't purposefully cheat to do so.

And by exploit, I mean to purposefully take advantage of a flaw.

In our games that's cheating and not welcome at the table.

It's also an opinion of yours, and not a fact as far as the boards are concerned.

That may be why I put 'In our games'. In that statement. I also stated that many people do such. Which means you're just pointing out what I already said in both cases.

I know. Lots of players read every written word of the game mechanics for ways to abuse or exploit poorly worded entries. Our game we go by the intent of the things. Not the writer's poorly executed explanation. (If it is indeed poorly worded)

"the intent of things"
Did you not read the first four reasons as to why the Wilk's laser sword is is inferior? None of those are a fault of the rules. I do note though that you're not addressing them; I am assuming it's because you have no factual counters to them, and instead are intent on just saying, "well I don't cheat" - which I will point out as to why that is a lie, below*.

No. I pointed out why they aren't viable in our games.

Again. I know alot of players try that stuff. It's common. At our table it'd get you in trouble. If you continued you'd either get twacked with the RUE, or not invited back.

Well at our table we don't punish people for playing the game presented,

There's a difference between playing the game presented, and purposefully exploiting and abusing the game.

and instead choose to correct apparent mistakes instead of excluding people because they don't happen to hold to our particular traditions.

I choose to correct apparent mistakes as well. Case in point, the weak psi swords of the Cyberknights, and the 'wilks laser sword'. Both have been corrected in our games via house rules.

More over the Laser sword parries just fine in our games. It's a light saber. Light sabers parry just fine. Sure they call it a "laser sword' (So do they in Star Wars from time to time, depending on who's describing it) So they don't get sued. We understand not wanting to get a lawsuit over a fictional weapon in an RPG, but it's a light saber. lol

Really? Because the book flat-out states that the intention was that this weapon cannot be used to parry. *Doing otherwise is just the same as cheating; you're creating a rules exploit that did not otherwise exist, and that is not the intent of the game. Literally, there is no better example within the game.

Not at all. We created a house rule to give the item in question, the abilities of what it was clearly an.... homage. The Wilks laser sword couldn't be written up as a 'Light saber' least there be legal matters at hand. Still. It is what it is. Calling it by a different name and changing the stats enough so Palladium doesn't get taken to court doesn't change that.

So yes, we created a house rule pertaining to it, to make it what it -was-. The mechanic was changed, simply allowing them to parry, same as a psi sword or vibro blade. It's a house rule. Clearly stated as such in our games. I'm not arguing that it's canon and in RAW that they can parry. I'm stipulating a house rule. Not an exploit. An exploit would be bending some wording or place of a coma to purposefully take advantage or pervert the rules

One can argue that the wilks laser sword's intent was not to be a light saber. That's their opinion. In the games I play, it's universally agreed that it is, but changed just enough to avoid lawsuit. As we won't get sued for our house rules at the table. We change it to what -we- see that it was intended to be.

A house rule is just that. A rule used in our house at our games. It has nothing binding on you, or anyone here, any more than your house rules do on me and mine. Some people share house rules but they're all departure from RAW.

Which would be a bit more significant if Kevin himself didn't house rule his own games.