Gravity Rail (GR) Guns and single shots

[Tor]

In a Rifts thread I have encountered some arguments that rail guns, per a statement in the Conversion Book, should not be able to fire single shots unless it's super-explicit about the option being there.

The damage listing for an individual round is given for informational purposes only.
Each burst is given a mega-damage range for quick game combat.

While the rail guns on Rifts Earth are of the electro-magnetic variety, Phase World introduced gravity-propelled ones. Their range seems less impressive although the ones I'm looking at are small and light so perhaps it's an unfair comparison.

So looking through DB2:
*on page 125 the GR-10P says single only, that seems clear enough
*on page 126 the GR-45HP and GR-15AR both mention under 'rate of fire' that single shots or bursts can be fired
*on page 130 the 3rd weapon of the Noro's Psionic Power Armor, a GR-Rifle, lists the damage a single round does, but rate of fire says "equal to the number of hand to hand attacks"
*on page 135 the first weapon of the Battleram Attack Bot is a Gravity Cannon which is described as a "GR autocannon" which still makes it a gravity rail gun. It does not say the damage a single round does, and goes out of its way to say "can only fire bursts".
*page 138 and page 139 also list "can only fire bursts" for their GR guns, the primary weapons of the Kreeghor and Human versions of the Warlord power armor
*on page 144 the 2nd weapon of the Bombard Infantry Robot, the Accordian Rail Gun, also explicitly says 'can only fire bursts' under its damage
*on page 146 the 3rd weapon of the Phalanx Tank also says 'can only fire bursts'
*on page 147 the 4th weapon of the Maniple APC also says 'only fires bursts'

In the case of this Noro power-armor GR-Rifle, does anyone think this means that the MD it inflicts with a single round is for informational purposes only, and that it can only fire the 20-round burst? Is it prohibited from making single shots like the Warlord or the Battleram and the other mentioned vehicles, even though it explicitly lists the damage a single round does and has no disclaimer about being 'burst only' ? Even though there is a pattern to not mention the damage a single shot does for all explicitly 'burst only' weapons?

[flatline]

It seems clear to me that single shots are allowed.

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

It seams that In the PB system that when the term 'railgun' is put to a weapon that is means that the weapon fires a limited burst of rounds. With the rounds being smaller then firearms projectiles but being accelerated to speeds much faster then firearm rounds usually accelerated to.

With 'gravity' 'railguns' this seams to be true also.

However, not all gravitonic guns fire bursts, even though most do.

(skips over the boring response to each of the citations)

If the text of the weapon says it fires just bursts, then that is what it fires unmodified from the maker.
Modifying said weapons takes an act of skill rolling by a grav-tech/weapons engineer to make single shots available as a fire selection. Or a GM's Fiat. Both of which pull said weapon outside of published canon.

So the answer to the OP is both yes and no that rail-guns can fire single shots. Yes if they have been modified to do so, No if you are taking them strait out of the book.

[eliakon]

In a Rifts thread I have encountered some arguments that rail guns, per a statement in the Conversion Book, should not be able to fire single shots unless it's super-explicit about the option being there.

The damage listing for an individual round is given for informational purposes only.
Each burst is given a mega-damage range for quick game combat.

While the rail guns on Rifts Earth are of the electro-magnetic variety, Phase World introduced gravity-propelled ones. Their range seems less impressive although the ones I'm looking at are small and light so perhaps it's an unfair comparison.

So looking through DB2:
*on page 125 the GR-10P says single only, that seems clear enough
*on page 126 the GR-45HP and GR-15AR both mention under 'rate of fire' that single shots or bursts can be fired
*on page 130 the 3rd weapon of the Noro's Psionic Power Armor, a GR-Rifle, lists the damage a single round does, but rate of fire says "equal to the number of hand to hand attacks"
*on page 135 the first weapon of the Battleram Attack Bot is a Gravity Cannon which is described as a "GR autocannon" which still makes it a gravity rail gun. It does not say the damage a single round does, and goes out of its way to say "can only fire bursts".
*page 138 and page 139 also list "can only fire bursts" for their GR guns, the primary weapons of the Kreeghor and Human versions of the Warlord power armor
*on page 144 the 2nd weapon of the Bombard Infantry Robot, the Accordian Rail Gun, also explicitly says 'can only fire bursts' under its damage
*on page 146 the 3rd weapon of the Phalanx Tank also says 'can only fire bursts'
*on page 147 the 4th weapon of the Maniple APC also says 'only fires bursts'

In the case of this Noro power-armor GR-Rifle, does anyone think this means that the MD it inflicts with a single round is for informational purposes only, and that it can only fire the 20-round burst? Is it prohibited from making single shots like the Warlord or the Battleram and the other mentioned vehicles, even though it explicitly lists the damage a single round does and has no disclaimer about being 'burst only' ? Even though there is a pattern to not mention the damage a single shot does for all explicitly 'burst only' weapons?

Since CB1 on page 9 explicitly says that rail guns can only fire bursts, and that the damage for a single round is provided for informational purposes only. It is pretty simple.
It can only fire bursts, and the damage for the single round is provided for informational purposes only.

Or put even more simply. Just because something has a note that it DOES follow the rules, does not mean that things that don't have the note don't follow it. Just like if we put a note in one persons stat block after their weight that this means that they fall when dropped from airplanes doesn't mean that everyone else doesn't fall because they DONT have a note that they too have to follow the law of gravity.

[DhAkael]

It is situational; MOST of the heavier caliber GR weapons seem to be pre-set to fire bursts, while infantry, which are constrained by how much bulk they can carry for additional re-loads, have the option for single shot (good for ammo conservation and sniping at range).

Again, as per most PBooks system questions; ALL FINAL RULINGS on game mechanics are the GM's CALL.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Genearlly speaking, only rail guns that specifically say they can shoot single shots can.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Agrees that all final rulings on game mechanics are the GM's call for their own games.
Which is not in dispute.

[Tor]

*could go forever without reminders of GM's ability to rule on anything, common knowledge, effect of introduction seems to serve only to distract from discussion of text*

Since CB1 on page 9 explicitly says that rail guns can only fire bursts, and that the damage for a single round is provided for informational purposes only. It is pretty simple. It can only fire bursts, and the damage for the single round is provided for informational purposes only.

Even for the GR-10P?

Comparing the Noro Power Armor's GR gun to the ones we see afterward: why does it list single-round damage and no "burst only" disclaimer, while all the ones after have "burst only" disclaimers and no single round damage? Obvious pattern is obvious.

Genearlly speaking, only rail guns that specifically say they can shoot single shots can.

Some of us read a single-shot damage assignment as such a declaration.

[eliakon]

*could go forever without reminders of GM's ability to rule on anything, common knowledge, effect of introduction seems to serve only to distract from discussion of text*

Since CB1 on page 9 explicitly says that rail guns can only fire bursts, and that the damage for a single round is provided for informational purposes only. It is pretty simple. It can only fire bursts, and the damage for the single round is provided for informational purposes only.

Even for the GR-10P?

Comparing the Noro Power Armor's GR gun to the ones we see afterward: why does it list single-round damage and no "burst only" disclaimer, while all the ones after have "burst only" disclaimers and no single round damage? Obvious pattern is obvious.

The same reason that not every person is listed as not being able to fly
The same reason that not every person is listed as not being able to shoot 3d6x100 laser beams from their eyes
Because you don't have to restate every limit and prohibited thing in every write up. You CAN list prohibited things if you wish...but you don't have to. That is the nice thing about blanket rules....they let you say one time what is or is not allowed and then you don't have to repeate it over and over again in every instance

Genearlly speaking, only rail guns that specifically say they can shoot single shots can.

Some of us read a single-shot damage assignment as such a declaration.

Your welcome to do that....but since it already says that the information is provided for 'informational purposes only' (which implies that it has some meaning other than being a rule....other wise it would be 'single round information is provided to provide single shot data'....

Just like we have the single round data for various machine guns but they can only fire bursts......

[DhAkael]

"This conversation can serve no further purpose... goodbye."
~H.A.L. 9000

Words of wisdom.

And Tor...stop being such a supercillious prat.

Warning: Official Warning issued. Mack

[drewkitty ~..~]

The way I can see why they include the single round damage is so when spraying an area via the burst rules, damages can be assigned via those rules. Which need the single round damage rating.

Like they actually were thinking ahead and including something we would need when a player got a "smart" idea.
e.g.: a player shooting her railgun in a spray to hit that missile volley. Hoping for fratricide.

Or getting a Smart A. idea....e.g.: The player shooting a spray at the mecha that launched the missile volley through the missile volley making the missiles the 'bystanders' that some of will get hit. Hoping for fratricide.

[Tor]

Comparing the Noro Power Armor's GR gun to the ones we see afterward: why does it list single-round damage and no "burst only" disclaimer, while all the ones after have "burst only" disclaimers and no single round damage? Obvious pattern is obvious.

The same reason that not every person is listed as not being able to fly
The same reason that not every person is listed as not being able to shoot 3d6x100 laser beams from their eyes
Because you don't have to restate every limit and prohibited thing in every write up. You CAN list prohibited things if you wish...but you don't have to. That is the nice thing about blanket rules....they let you say one time what is or is not allowed and then you don't have to repeate it over and over again in every instance

There is no blanket rule though. There is only a vague 'informational purposes' statement people are drawing conclusions from.

Your examples are also on a whole other level of association. It's like if power armor said 'flight speed is 60mph' and then some footnote in another book said 'some power armor fly via magical enchantments' and then assuming that the 60mph must be due to a magical enchantment.

since it already says that the information is provided for 'informational purposes only' (which implies that it has some meaning other than being a rule....other wise it would be 'single round information is provided to provide single shot data'....Just like we have the single round data for various machine guns but they can only fire bursts......

We are explicitly told that machineguns can only fire those, we are not explicitly told rail guns cannot fire bursts, and we know for a fact that some explicitly can fire them.

The way I can see why they include the single round damage is so when spraying an area via the burst rules, damages can be assigned via those rules. Which need the single round damage rating.

Like they actually were thinking ahead and including something we would need when a player got a "smart" idea.
e.g.: a player shooting her railgun in a spray to hit that missile volley. Hoping for fratricide.

Or getting a Smart A. idea....e.g.: The player shooting a spray at the mecha that launched the missile volley through the missile volley making the missiles the 'bystanders' that some of will get hit. Hoping for fratricide.

I can see that as being one possible intent too, sure. It may even be a stronger motive than firing single shots. But that would not prove an inability to fire single shots just because rail guns in general aren't primarily used to do that.

Interesting bit I noticed in RCBp9(unrev) regarding spraying...

See the data and explanation under Bursts or Sprays from automatic weapns and sub-machineguns in Rifts, page 34. These rules apply to automatic energy weapons .. Unless otherwise noted, most energy weapons are considered to be automatic weapons. Only weapons that state a specific limited number of shots per melee are not automatic.

Admittedly that last part probably means "only energy weapons" but since rail guns fire bursts, one gets the impression they would be able to spray if they had an adequate number of rounds in the burst.

Bursts or Sprays from Automatic (and Energy) Weapons and Sub-Machineguns

Looking to RMBp34 (keeping in mind this is all pre-RUE stuff which rewrote all the 'standard' rate of fire stuff for that line of gaming) the "Sprays from Automatic Weapons" entry's "Spray" subheading has little info, rather it refers us to "see shooting wild". We are told that it has to be long/entire though. This still allows you to spray in a single attack, which is pretty useful. There was no downside to this in terms of ammo:damage ratio until RCB nerf of long to 5>3. The 'entire' multiplier is better if you want to spend 2 attacks.

Looking to the following 'Wild' section, it actually seems to be discussing sprays even though it's called 'wild'. Since it explicitly 'counts as 2 attacks' (taking longer even if 'long) one would think that's all the more reason to use the 'entire' magazine... except it doesn't seem like using 'entire' actually results in any more damage. You hit 1d4 targets regardless of using long/entire... I would at least upgrade an 'entire/full' magazine burst-spray into 1d6 targets as a house rule to give SOME sort of reason for doing it. BRB using up extra shots to no purpose.

If you had to use spray rules for rail guns I would probably go with machinegun rules due to the number of rounds used in their bursts. Only possible exception might be a really small railgun, like the Dead-Man's in CWC which only fires 20 round bursts. Energy weapons on the other hand, would be like sub-machineguns pretty much always.

Per the right column of page 34, I would say based on total ammo payload that a 'short spray' would make more sense, so you hit 1d4 guys. Considerations like 'long burst spray' would only come if there were multiple firing options, as some guns like the TX-250 have, between firing short or firing long. So some of the NGR guns could, by firing the higher number of rounds, spray 1d8 instead of 1d4. I don't know any rail guns that would qualify for the 'entire magazine spray' tactic though.

[KLM]

Just a side note:
I found that adding
- knockdown effect to railgun hits
- allowing spraying an area
- and finally allowing a much higher burst damage for "really" point blank (ie. within a meter or so)

is really needed to give railguns the glory they are attributed (especially when compared to energy weapons hooked to a nuclear power source).

[Alrik Vas]

Just a side note:
I found that adding
- knockdown effect to railgun hits
- allowing spraying an area
- and finally allowing a much higher burst damage for "really" point blank (ie. within a meter or so)

is really needed to give railguns the glory they are attributed (especially when compared to energy weapons hooked to a nuclear power source).

this is good stuff. I also apply knockdown to rail guns, I as well use the armor piercing rule with them (double damage on a modified 17+). works pretty well for our games.

[KLM]

Just a side note:
I found that adding
- knockdown effect to railgun hits
- allowing spraying an area
- and finally allowing a much higher burst damage for "really" point blank (ie. within a meter or so)

is really needed to give railguns the glory they are attributed (especially when compared to energy weapons hooked to a nuclear power source).

this is good stuff. I also apply knockdown to rail guns, I as well use the armor piercing rule with them (double damage on a modified 17+). works pretty well for our games.

Oh, I almost forgot: We also tinkered with "penetrating" damage - ie. each MD on EBA meant 1 SDC for the wearer (less for PA and none for tanks and giant robots). A head shot meant
like 6x damage.

I remember a Juicer using a Dead Man's RG, spraying an enemy group until noone had any action left, then going close&personal and dealing like 2d4*10 MD with each burst in melee range.

On the head.

Which sounds gross at first, but considering if our Juicer had been using a double or quad P-beam, it were much-much worse.

[flatline]

I remember a Juicer using a Dead Man's RG, spraying an enemy group until noone had any action left, then going close&personal and dealing like 2d4*10 MD with each burst in melee range.
.

This is why I did away with attacks per melee. The idea of everyone standing around doing nothing while the juicer takes a bunch of consecutive actions is simply retarded.

--flatline

[KLM]

I remember a Juicer using a Dead Man's RG, spraying an enemy group until noone had any action left, then going close&personal and dealing like 2d4*10 MD with each burst in melee range.
.

This is why I did away with attacks per melee. The idea of everyone standing around doing nothing while the juicer takes a bunch of consecutive actions is simply retarded.

--flatline

When someone used up all his action for "this" melee and even for the "next" one, that person is NOT standing and doing nothing.

More like lying on the ground and trying to recognise such difficult concepts like "up" and "down".

[Alrik Vas]

but they got rid of APM so combat could be more cinematic, driven off the actions cooked up by the players and translated into a story rather than a pure back and forth by the rules. as long as the GM is aware that certain metrics in the rules should be observed differently, I think it works pretty well.

and by differently, I mean someone with great skill should be able to accurately hit multiple enemies in the three or so seconds it takes a low range spell to be cast. then it seems fair to me. if its literally one action for one action, the bias toward psi, super and spells is too great for anyone to play anything else.