Why the hold up PB?

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:45 pm

I was online looking for inspiration to paint up my RRT models when I notice there's a lot of unhappy people because they haven't received their wave one models yet. It's mostly folks in Asia, Africa, and Latin America. Is there a legitimate reason why those backers haven't received their pledges? Many of those same backers say that the game is available to buy at their local shop (including Japan which is non RT friendly).

TagsPB · Unread post by **TagsPB** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:23 pm

Other then the delays at port of exit?
And then it goes to a distrusting company.
And then it has to travel to them.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:06 pm

A distributing company, I presume you mean.

Though 'a distrusting company' is much funnier, and possibly still accurate.

Anyway, I don't think that's applicable. As per the last Newsletter from PB themselves;

Robotech® RPG Tactics™ has shipped to our Kickstarter backers in Europe and continues to ship to Australian backers, with the rest of the world to follow.

Which sounds an awful lot like the Rest of World boxes haven't gone out at all (it sure as hell wouldn't make sense to ship from Australia, on several levels).

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:49 pm

first something funny, how long before this thread gets locked, moved or deleted? just seems to be the way things go for most rrt threads not tucked away in the rrt section.

second if you really want an answer kryptt you need to call the office and maybe you'll get somebody that knows what's going on. there's a pretty bad record of the higher ups not checking things here in the forums.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:54 pm

This thread shouldn't get moved or deleted. It's not a bash thread. As long as it's kept civil it should be ok.

Your right a phone call might be the way to go. It just doesn't make sense to wait for all non US pledges to be delivered and then send out the few that have to be packaged in small groups or as a single bundle. I'd say it seems a bit dishonest, but I'm not privy to the why so maybe there's a legitimate reason for the hold up.

Rallan · Unread post by **Rallan** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:44 pm

The holdup is because it's tradition dagnabbit!

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:17 pm

Facepalm

zyanitevp · Unread post by **zyanitevp** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:11 am

I will talk to Palladium about this when we meet this weekend.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:55 am

Does it matter? US delivery began half a year ago.

I'm not among their number, but if I were, I'd be furious.

I doubt they'll have an answer for why Kryptt's package hasn't gone out (if he is indeed part of the RoW crew), but why their stuff apparently wasn't sent out months ago seems like a valid question that the newsletters have glanced at but haven't begun to address.

There seems to be a holdup, but I couldn't begin to say what that was, or when it will stop.

Morgan Vening · Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:18 am

To add to Forar's response, the container shipping to Australia left before the end of January. It's now April. That's 9+ weeks they've had to ship, based on prior statements by Palladium, NOT that many packages. Sure, they're a little more complicated, but as of the last PBWU (April 2), it still hadn't started. And to bastardize Lao-Tzu, "A completion of RoW fulfillment begins with a single package.".

But this also isn't something that should need to be handled on a case by case situation. Or are you saying the only people who deserve to have their packages prioritized, are those that complain about it? Like I said, it's been 9+ weeks since PB have shipped a backer package (according to them).

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:44 pm

I buy into one theory that is just OPINION that has been around for a bit, money issues. we'll never know the truth from behind the curtain. as a theory it makes a ton of sense though, why else would the shipping be in these goofy spurts? ship this group in the usa due to ease and expense, ship to retail in that region to recoup, then Canada and their retail, etc etc. but something huge was overlooked: THE INTERNET. the pesky net screwed up the whole plan from the looks of things so recouping funds is taking longer. like I said it's just opinion or a thought.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:20 pm

I get the feeling it's a financial reason as well. At this point I'm not sure if wave two will ever get made. It would be nice if we got an update explaining everything that's going on wether it's good or bad news. A little honesty would be greatly appreciated right about now. I mean Wayne promised more updates and more pics of the wave two models and it's been weeks since there was an update.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:06 am

Lest anyone think Kryptt is exaggerating:

Today, I’ll start with the few pieces I mentioned in the January 17, 2015 Update. More will be coming in the following days.

That was 6 weeks ago.

The 5 sprue piece breakdowns shown in that update were indeed welcome. But on a wave with roughly 2 dozen figures, we're gonna need a lot more where that came from.

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:06 am

A little truth might just bring the whole system crashing down. If I remember right they started shipping back in October and the money thing is all that makes sense on why it's taking all this time. Heck we're on months 5 and 6 of shipping wave one when they were on pace to be done in February. Add in holidays, dropping everything for the grab bags, not picking up a phone to get quotes months before having the Europe and austraillia stuff ready to go and here they are upsetting the smaller portion of backers.

Morgan Vening · Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:32 am

Forar wrote:Lest anyone think Kryptt is exaggerating:
Today, I’ll start with the few pieces I mentioned in the January 17, 2015 Update. More will be coming in the following days.

That was 6 weeks ago.

The 5 sprue piece breakdowns shown in that update were indeed welcome. But on a wave with roughly 2 dozen figures, we're gonna need a lot more where that came from.

And with that update (#173) claiming...

ALL Wave Two pieces are either done or in active development.

(emphasis mine), it really shouldn't be that hard. How about showing us everything that's done, one apiece, every two weeks? Interspersed with whatever item that's being worked on every other week at whatever development stage it's at, and with whatever other developmental or convention based news they might want to share, and you've potentially got a weekly update for the next 10 months. As models start to get test sprues run, there's another 5 months or so worth of Updates.

Though I'm skeptical on what the Palladium definition of "done" is. After all, Update 113, 26th September 2013, claimed the Jotun sculpt was "done". And now, 18 months later, it "still needs a bit of work". When they say done, do they mean done in the sense that the digital sculpt is done, that the parts layout is done, that the pre-productions prototypes are done, or that the sprue layout is done (last stage excluding Harmony Gold approval, before milling the mold). I doubt very much that the test sprues are done, as with "there’s no reason you guys should ever feel in the dark" (#173) would assume they'd show models at that stage. So, when they say done, I'd like to know what they mean. Because from what we've seen in the past, their definition of the word doesn't match mine.

McPherson · Unread post by **McPherson** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:40 am

I am trying my best to refrain from commenting but I can't help but say it is more than a little worrying its been 3 weeks since a Kickstarter update and nothing really has been said since Adepticon by the guys at PB. Seems like the promises of keeping people in the loop with more regular updates from Wayne have been forgotten or put aside at least.

Wonder what is taking up all their time? I can understand Kevin being busy since he said he was working on various Palladium products but I vaguely remember one of the old updates / PB newsletters saying Wayne and Jeff were switching to working exclusively on RRT? Or am I misremembering?

- End of Line -

The Galactus Kid · Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:46 am

McPherson wrote:I am trying my best to refrain from commenting but I can't help but say it is more than a little worrying its been 3 weeks since a Kickstarter update and nothing really has been said since Adepticon by the guys at PB. Seems like the promises of keeping people in the loop with more regular updates from Wayne have been forgotten or put aside at least.

Wonder what is taking up all their time? I can understand Kevin being busy since he said he was working on various Palladium products but I vaguely remember one of the old updates / PB newsletters saying Wayne and Jeff were switching to working exclusively on RRT? Or am I misremembering?

- End of Line -

Wayne is still responsible for compiling, curating and editing the Rifter in addition to other business responsibilities. I'm not sure about Jeff.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:47 am

I'm curious how much is left from the $1.4m. Since shipping all pledges at the same time would have been expensive I'm guessing PB is waiting to make some money back from sales of their games, be it books or RRT to either pay for ROW shipping or pay to get wave two manufactured. After all as soon as the RRT campaign ended both NG books were finished within weeks. I'm not not saying RRT funds were used to pay for the NG books but if it was then that's going to hurt getting wave two done. If PB is low on funds at this rate they might start another kickstarter for SC just to finish the macross era. Again let's not forget some of the funds were mismanaged when Kevin paid for advertisements for RRT that went to waste because the game wasn't ready. Then PB had to pay for the factory at the very least twice because of the incompatible files. Advertisements and securing factory time aren't cheap along with the Chinese factory managers bumping the prices for getting the manufacturing done, by taking advantage of the fact that PB is new to plastic manufacturing.

One way to get rid of all this speculation would be to have an honest update without all the usual hyperbole and platitudes that is common with PB updates. Instead just tell us what's really going on and if there are problems then explain what's being done about it. The backers don't need to hear for the hundredth time that PB is grateful to everyone for giving them money and it couldn't be done without us or that their super fans like us. We've heard this all before over and over that now it just sounds condescending and disingenuous.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:36 pm

To be fair, they did say that 'thousands' were spent on the premature advertisements. Clearly nobody is a fan of wasted money, but unless they did it ten or twenty times over, I can't imagine that particular instance was more than a drop in the bucket.

The doubled mold costs (probably tens or hundreds of thousands there) and the two waves of shipping (even if one isn't as heavy/expensive as the other) are probably much bigger financial hits.

Though given that they haven't said anything about paying for molds in over a year, and wave two isn't due out for another ~7 months, neither of those should really come into play. Maybe the molds if they payed up front for all of them at once in some kind of bulk deal.

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:47 pm

I'd love to know where everything is at, that little "everything is done" shouldn't have been said. like stated earlier what does done actually mean here?

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:46 pm

Why is it now going to take more weeks to get ROW backers their pledges? In the latest update an explanation would have been nice. And why not just tell us about the big RRT news now instead of next week? Has PB always operated like this? I thought the point of an update was to give information, not tell us that next week we'll get it.

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:50 am

Sadly this is how business is normally. Here's a huge to-do list that will be done this year then maybe 1/6 of it happens. Hopefully the kickstarter finishes up by the end of this year early next, I really don't want to see it rot away like the rest of the to-do list that barely changed over the last several years.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:11 pm

They need to manage their time better imo. I get that they want to get a lot done. They don;t have enough staff to do all the stuff that they have planned. Their huge to do list keeps getting longer and longer.

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:42 am

i'm willing to bet all free lancers and writers he has are talented and can pull off some amazing work. Problem looks to be the guy in charge at times. He's trying to do too much.
I work for a shop owner that if things are good it's due to him, if not it's someone else's fault.

agent_orange · Unread post by **agent_orange** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:17 pm

we've now gotten past a another month without an update.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:37 pm

rosco60559 wrote:first something funny, how long before this thread gets locked, moved or deleted? just seems to be the way things go for most rrt threads not tucked away in the rrt section.

second if you really want an answer kryptt you need to call the office and maybe you'll get somebody that knows what's going on. there's a pretty bad record of the higher ups not checking things here in the forums.

They get moved to the RRT forum because they are RRT specific threads.

As for lock and/or deletions. The conduct of the posters in said threads is the cause for those situations.

Finally, if you want a response from Palladium, you're further ahead to contact them directly than to post here. They have set up a specific email about RRT and the Kickstarter, it's kickstarter@palladiumbooks.com. They can also be called at 734-721-2903.

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:50 pm

Agent, I hear ya. Bout a month ago there was a little nugget of info being this huge news for us dealing with rrt. Now a month later I'm no longer really concerned about the big news. Eventually the kickstarter will be updated, all we can do is hope there's actual info in there with what's going on.

Jefffar, the first part of that was just a joke. Until rrt finally got a section it just seemed like every time anything brought up for it got that result. The second seems to be the truth if you call anywhere, you hope you get the person that knows what's happening. As for that email, it's taken several tries for other backers to get help, thankfully I lucked out and haven't had issues or need for it. Some have given up or just started calling out Wayne on mike's fb group.

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:59 am

Oh almost forgot. .. And we're relocated to the rrt section. Lasted longer than I thought over in general pop. Back to solitary.

zyanitevp · Unread post by **zyanitevp** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:24 am

rosco60559 wrote:Oh almost forgot. .. And we're relocated to the rrt section. Lasted longer than I thought over in general pop. Back to solitary.

Not solitary- I am watching, and communicating to them. Did so again today.

Morgan Vening · Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:21 pm

zyanitevp wrote:
rosco60559 wrote:Oh almost forgot. .. And we're relocated to the rrt section. Lasted longer than I thought over in general pop. Back to solitary.

Not solitary- I am watching, and communicating to them. Did so again today.

I know this'll probably be taken the wrong way, but so what? If it takes backers/community complaining at MA's and MA's complaining at Kevin to get updates and info, they continue to fail at pattern recognition.

It should not be hard to realize that 5+ weeks without an update, and 7+ without an update containing information (which was a followup to an Update made six weeks prior), is too long. From that Update...

Update 173 wrote:I've been promising Wave 2 updates and pictures for a while now, but it has taken me so long to start posting them, some have begun to express some doubts. I’m sorry about that; there’s no reason you guys should ever feel in the dark so much that you start to worry about whether we’re even working on this stuff. Well, we are. ALL Wave Two pieces are either done or in active development. But pictures are worth more than words, so here you go.

At this point, I'm afraid that there are PLENTY of reasons to "feel in the dark". If so much is "done or in active development", and "pictures are worth more than words", why haven't we seen anything that's considered "done"? Of the 28+ plastic models (and 8+ resin components) remaining, we've seen five, mostly partially "done".

And what is their definition for "done" anyway? Because the Jotun sculpt was "done" 19 months ago (Update 113). Yet it "still needs a bit of work" as little as two months ago. Sure, there is a difference between a digital sculpt and the final product. Maybe that'd be something that could be explained in a "behind the scenes insight", rather than expecting us to take it on faith? And I don't mean just a singular spectacular wondiferous post and months of silence. It'll require a recommitment to maintain "consistent communication" before they start getting the benefit of the doubt again.

Kickstarter Main Page, Risks and Challenges wrote:It is our commitment to you, the Kickstarter backers, that we will maintain consistent communication throughout the process. This means regular updates, product photos, and plenty of behind the scenes insight as we complete the creation of Robotech® RPG Tactics™.

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:41 pm

zyanitevp, while I'm glad you try to communicate with the higher ups, it looks like they're just going uh-hu, yep, ok, good idea then hanging up on you and just going back to business as usual. ignoring anything not brought up or cleared by the boss. as pointed out by morgan the definition of done needs to be addressed not to mention the communication issues.

morgan loved the post.

Kendachi · Unread post by **Kendachi** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:22 pm

I agree with everything Morgan has said.

Because, this dark is pretty deep.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:54 pm

Out of curiosity, I went into the weekly update archive.

April 19th: "We have so much underway for this product line. And not just the engineering aspect of Wave Two items, we just requested a quote for a handful of new items. I have been wanting to write and post a couple of comprehensive Updates about this game line, but we have all been overwhelmed with work on several fronts from conventions and the Open House, to new product releases, plus some of the details are not yet known. Will try to get something out to our supporters soon."

April 10th: "As I noted last week, Palladium has exciting plans in development for expanding the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game line and gaming experience for years to come. We have wanted to write and post a rather expansive update to all our Robotech® supporters for a number of weeks now. We plan to do so next week."

April 2nd: "As I noted last week, Palladium has exciting plans in development for expanding the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game line and gaming experience. I’m anxious to share those with you as soon as possible."

March 27th: "Gotta keep this one brief, but we have all kinds of things boiling that we’ll be talking about soon."

"Palladium has exciting plans in development for expanding the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game line and gaming experience. In between hammering out various details, I have been working on the announcement with all the juicy info. Our plans for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ will be coming soon."

March 17th: "So far, the overwhelming majority of Kickstarter backers and people who have purchased Robotech® RPG Tactics™ are enjoying it. That’s great because we have big plans for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and expanding the game line and gaming experience." (editor's note: [Citation Needed] on "the overwhelming majority")

"Much more about our plans for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ in the weeks to follow."

March 13th: "We continue to work on a number of things we think Robotech® RPG Tactics™ fans will be very pleased with, but nothing we can reveal quite yet. We intend to do a big update soon.

As I said last week, the initial launch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is just the first step. We have years of exciting plans for RRT. More game pieces for the Macross saga, expanded rules, new factions, tournaments, and, of course, the Wave Two release. We’ll provide much more insight soon."

March 6th: "We are working on a number of things we think will make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ fans happy. We hope to do a big update soon.

The initial launch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is just the first step. We have years of exciting plans for RRT. More game pieces for the Macross saga, expanded rules, new faction, tournaments, and, of course, the Wave Two release. We’ll provide much more insight soon."

And that's just going back a month and a half. For something that has been worked on 'crazily' for months now (if not years, based on prototype figures for things that aren't produced yet being available at Gencon 2013), there's been an awful lot of talk about sharing info 'soon' but not much actual info to follow.

Show. Don't Tell.

Edit: and as has been pointed out, between Penguicon and the Open House and prep for Gencon and everything else going on, there will always be reasons to be 'omg super busy'. Their 'dozen+ books a year!' schedule alone can be pointed at indefinitely as a reason to be drowning in work. It's the standard, so if they actually want to bring us up to speed (and it has now been over 5 weeks since the last actual Kickstarter Update), it needs to be a priority. Surely Wayne or Jeff or someone more heavily focused on the project can put out a bulleted list over the course of a morning coffee or something?

Stocktigon · Unread post by **Stocktigon** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:46 am

I don't post much but after reading this thread...I have to. I have worked as a marketing consultant for a number of start-up video game companies and have worked with a couple other board game and miniature companies.

First, I want to say...yes it sucks that we have to wait and we don't get to see all the stuff behind the scenes. It's a pain in the butt. But, let's try and look at it from a different perspective: (see what I did there...I used...nevermind)

1) Palladium is trying to be helpful with the "big things comment" in order to let us know they are working on new stuff for the game. Now, depending on what is going on with legal, product rights, points of development, etc. They may not be ready to say anything even though they are chomping at the bit to tell us. They would much rather tell us so that we can get our wallets ready to buy more stuff. Now, it sucks. Yes, it sucks a lot. However, they are just trying to let us know, more stuff is coming down the pipe and it's not just a "pipe dream." (Sorry, had to be done.)

2) We haven't seen much in model updates...okay...that's fairly normal for most miniature games. Most companies don't even share the models that are coming out until about 3 months before you can get them. You might get the very rare, sneak peek, but in general you don't get the nearly the communication Palladium has done so far. Do we want more? Heck yeah!!! Does it suck to wait? Yeah! I for one though am happy to see what I have, actual Robotech miniatures that have an actual rule set with shiny cards. I am loving this! I have been waiting since I first saw the show...about 20 years. I can wait another year if it means quality miniatures and unrushed models for wave two. Though I am pretty sure it's not going to take that long to get them out. Hunch based on past experience with companies, production and where they are at in the production cycle.

3) Convention season is insane. I worked with Fantasy Flight Games to get them ready for convention season, specifically Gencon, and it takes them about 2 months of dedicated full time work from 12 employees and a variety of part time workers to be ready. Palladium is much smaller...while having to still do other work and that doesn't even include working with multiple parties to coordinate Intellectual Property issues, production issues, etc. Remember that Harmony Gold has to sign off on all of their stuff as well...plus get guys in China to produce without having a larger company come in and take their production time (which by the way, happens all the time when you are a little guy. When Wal-Mart wants something, Wal-Mart gets it, etc.)

4) I know it's frustrating, I am frustrated too. Palladium is frustrated. They don't benefit from prolonging this. They want happy players, who play and show off the game so other people can buy stuff as well. Also, from an economic stand point, the more time they spend on this, the more money they lose. They don't want that at all.

So, before we get the pitchforks, torches, tar, feathers, and a pole. I recommend we take the opportunity to ask how we can help make this game better and RULE THE FRICKIN' WORLD with it.

Things that need to be done, that we can do are:
- Make a compact, one page rule description for the game. A cheat sheet for players to know what options they have in a given turn.
- A one page vocabulary sheet for quickly looking up rules and descriptions of rules, examples of correct play, etc.
- An Excel army list builder so anyone can use it to build armies.
- Whatever we want as long as we don't break any rules.

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:07 am

Stocktigon, how many of ffg's books have been on the coming soon list for 7-10 YEARS? While I agree about being glad there's a Robotech game the mini's are on the low quality side, not the worst I've seen but definitely not "mouth watering" as promised. After seeing several other kickstarters telling backers were figs are in the development stages and being promised "better communication" there are expectations that keep being set and then immediately lowered by certain actions or lack of.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:19 am

Those are some well thought out and valid points. Although I think pb is trying to rush out wave two in time for the Christmas shopping season. As to the quality, I've had the gashapon figures from Japan. That to me is great quality. It's also less pieces and detailed.

I think it's obvious that pb will continue to develop rrt models for the long run of the game. But to be told week after week that something big is coming and only shown a badly made dice bag and no significant info on wave two after being told there will be more is frustrating. Every week it's the same cut an past message, 'we're working on it'. It's worrisome because pb is ignoring the backers and we were told since 2013 that we would be given behind the scenes on production of the game. So I think it's only fair that many are upset that pb went back on their word. Still I do appreciate your post because it does give another POV.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:10 am

I concur that those are some fair points made. To build upon them;

1) part of the problem is that Palladium has been promising the moon and the stars for years, and regularly falls short, so while it's not surprising that this would continue on from that, it doesn't make it any less obnoxious. Especially with promises to the contrary about communication improving and then falling into silence.

2) They have shown us models. They showed us 5 sprue breakdowns a few months ago. During wave one they've shown pre-production prototypes, 3-D printed pieces (finished figures and sprue breakdowns), super duper ultra mega tournament edition finalized renders, and more. We're talking a wave with the lion's share of the figures in it (over twice what was in Wave One at my estimate) and allegedly they're supposed to be delivering those in 7 months. Unless that's more bluster and unrealistic projection, at this point they should be simply drowning in things to show off.

One might point to "Spartangate" as a reason they'd be a little more wary of doing so again, however I'd like to point out that despite assuring us 'there is no other way to do this!' repeatedly, they did indeed take another pass at it and lo, the piece count was reduced. While I doubt thousands of posts of people expressing themselves with varying degrees of civility were fun to endure at times, the end result did seem to be improved, and had they not dug in their heels a lot of that ire might've been avoided in the first place.

3) Conventions are insane, and many things like Chinese New Year and shipping hold ups are beyond their control. Some of those (like the former) are known industry wide and should be accounted for. Wyrd, for example, are known for interacting with their fans on their forums pretty regularly, and they basically fall off the face of the Earth for a good month or two leading up to Gencon. I have no doubt Palladium is busy. And because they're busy, perhaps they should embrace a more realistic delivery time line (in all respects). It seems like they're stuck in a never ending cycle of needing to promise more and more, for everything to be bigger and better, and then when things fall short (not as many books released, more months taken to deliver figures) there's hand wringing and finger pointing (shipping! File incompatibility! Factory slots! Ninja Division!), which makes it all the more obnoxious when the next round of "OMG YOU GUYS BEST YEAR EVAR COMING! DOZENS OF BOOKS AND ALLLLL THE FIGUUUUURES!" begins.

4) Agreed, and that vested interest in expanding the line is what brings into stark relief the extremes of how much there is to do and how little they have to show for it. If they were releasing a couple renders/prototypes/3D printed sprue layouts every couple of weeks, it'd be less of an issue. Some semblance of progress at all. Unfortunately they blew any residual benefit of the doubt with 'it's cool guys, we're good and making great progress, trust us' during wave one. Going to need more than just gentle cooing and reassurances to buy that this time around.

So we come back around to the fact that if they do have 'omg all the things' on the go, there should be something to show for that. Yes, Chinese New Year just passed, but they wrapped up pre-manufacturing work on wave one nearly a year ago, so unless they told people to take half a year off, it's not like they've only had a few months to pull things together. 5 figures with what may or may not be the sprue layouts is, as noted, a good start. Surely 5 weeks later some progress has been made on something else since then?

If not, they should probably take a good long look at that November target again.

Because if that's the case, they're going to miss it.

Morgan Vening · Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:25 am

EDIT: I wasn't aware Forar posted while I was replying, so some of the points are naturally going to overlap. Stripping out those points would at this point be cumbersome, so I hope you'll bear with it.

Stocktigon wrote:I don't post much but after reading this thread...I have to. I have worked as a marketing consultant for a number of start-up video game companies and have worked with a couple other board game and miniature companies.

First, I want to say...yes it sucks that we have to wait and we don't get to see all the stuff behind the scenes. It's a pain in the butt. But, let's try and look at it from a different perspective: (see what I did there...I used...nevermind)

That's cool. I'll provide some counterpoints, and while it doesn't disqualify you from having an opinion, I do feel a need to ask if you are a backer. Because that does tend to have an effect on how different things are taken. Waiting for a product on a "dynamic schedule" so you can hand PB money is a completely different experience from having paid for it two years ago, having had it expected (by THEIR timeline) 8 months later, and still waiting on a good portion of the stuff. And in a few scattered locales, waiting on any stuff at all. Though I have heard reports some RoW backers have started receiving their stuff.

Stocktigon wrote:1) Palladium is trying to be helpful with the "big things comment" in order to let us know they are working on new stuff for the game. Now, depending on what is going on with legal, product rights, points of development, etc. They may not be ready to say anything even though they are chomping at the bit to tell us. They would much rather tell us so that we can get our wallets ready to buy more stuff. Now, it sucks. Yes, it sucks a lot. However, they are just trying to let us know, more stuff is coming down the pipe and it's not just a "pipe dream." (Sorry, had to be done.)

I understand legality issues and licensing can make communicating something new more difficult. And if that was in ADDITION to even a slow trickle of news about development of the stuff already promised, it probably wouldn't be seen as that big a problem. The issue some people have, is that there appears to be a standstill on the stuff promised, while they run around doing stuff that makes them excited. This may not be the case behind the scenes, but it DOES seem to be standard operating procedure. The amount of times a product is almost done/finishing touches, and then is shelved for 3/6/12 months because they decide to shift to a different product. This would be annoying for people who were just interested in the product. This is incredibly frustrating for people that have PAID for the game, and one that's again, 16 months late, with seemingly no end in sight.

Stocktigon wrote:2) We haven't seen much in model updates...okay...that's fairly normal for most miniature games. Most companies don't even share the models that are coming out until about 3 months before you can get them. You might get the very rare, sneak peek, but in general you don't get the nearly the communication Palladium has done so far. Do we want more? Heck yeah!!! Does it suck to wait? Yeah! I for one though am happy to see what I have, actual Robotech miniatures that have an actual rule set with shiny cards. I am loving this! I have been waiting since I first saw the show...about 20 years. I can wait another year if it means quality miniatures and unrushed models for wave two. Though I am pretty sure it's not going to take that long to get them out. Hunch based on past experience with companies, production and where they are at in the production cycle.

Agreed in part. Other companies do usually not announce/preview product more than a couple months out. There's a BIG difference though. That's how it works in the general market. When it comes to Kickstarters, where the product is 6-12 months out, it's more expected. When the Kickstarter is significantly LATE, it becomes more imperative.

As for your hunch, it's nice that you have faith that it'll be less than a year. Because at this point, we haven't seen a confirmed done digital sculpt of a Wave 2 item. Even the Gnerl and Glaug Eldare have caveats. That might be disputed, but I can pull up at least a half dozen examples of things with similar caveats still being worked on months after being proclaimed as "done" or "finalized". Mostly in regards the cards and rulebook in late 2013. But I digress.

At this point last year, we were less than three weeks away from seeing the LAST of the pre-production prototypes (Valkyries, May 17th), and had seen quite a few test sprues. To this point, we've seen nothing physical for Wave 2, since the shelving of two items (FPA and G-E) that saw PPP's before the split. Now, given the Glaug Eldare was apparently in redesign earlier this year, it's not hard to discount that previous more than a year old, model.

With twice as many models (and likely at least twice as many sprues), and not being even as far along as they were last year, I've seen no evidence that lends credence to getting this out in any reasonable timeframe.

Stocktigon wrote:3) Convention season is insane. I worked with Fantasy Flight Games to get them ready for convention season, specifically Gencon, and it takes them about 2 months of dedicated full time work from 12 employees and a variety of part time workers to be ready. Palladium is much smaller...while having to still do other work and that doesn't even include working with multiple parties to coordinate Intellectual Property issues, production issues, etc. Remember that Harmony Gold has to sign off on all of their stuff as well...plus get guys in China to produce without having a larger company come in and take their production time (which by the way, happens all the time when you are a little guy. When Wal-Mart wants something, Wal-Mart gets it, etc.)

Not sure what you're trying to say here, other than "Expect PB to do nothing significant in development and just spin their wheels until at least the end of August. Cause they've got a convention this weekend, the Open House next month, and then GenCon at the end of July. They've also got two RPG books due out in that time. And given they didn't think they'd have a problem with it when they LAUNCHED the campaign. The campaign finished May 21st, production was expected to begin "within 45 after the Kickstarter". They didn't think convention season was gonna have that big an impact, and well, with the often touted 30+ years experience, I'd expect them to factor that in.

Yes, it can be argued that the project became much more than was initially planned. Two wrinkles to that. First, they had several opportunities to revise their time estimate, and yet consistently doubled down on it remaining (or hoping to remain) unchanged, as late as September 26 2013. Second, and this part is important, the 45 days was specifically for Wave 1. Instead of 45 days (early July), it was 409 (literally a year later). For what they promised as Wave 1, which they claim to have done significant work on prior to the campaign starting.

Stocktigon wrote:4) I know it's frustrating, I am frustrated too. Palladium is frustrated. They don't benefit from prolonging this. They want happy players, who play and show off the game so other people can buy stuff as well. Also, from an economic stand point, the more time they spend on this, the more money they lose. They don't want that at all.

Right. But at this point, it's not "their" money. Yes, I know that's not technically accurate, but I'll reiterate the point from above. If Palladium was paying for this out of their own pocket, I think a majority of people complaining would at most, be quietly grumbling, or dismissing it as "Palladium status quo" and be a little more patient. But they didn't. They took well over 1.2 million dollars from backers. Two years ago next month. And other than fairly empty platitudes, they've shown little progress of the second leg of the project.

Stocktigon wrote:So, before we get the pitchforks, torches, tar, feathers, and a pole. I recommend we take the opportunity to ask how we can help make this game better and RULE THE FRICKIN' WORLD with it.

First, you bring up a good point that seems to be overlooked. Where's the promised Megaversal Ambassador push? I've seen very little in the way of active recruitment of MA's for this purpose, and little in the way of public activity. Yes, several tournaments have or are being run by MA's, but that seems more like an individual effort on their part, rather than a concerted effort from the MA program as a whole. The game's been on the open market for 6 months now. While I don't expect EVERYTHING to be up and running, I'd have expected to have seen some movement publicly that the game is moving towards active promotion, support, official tourney organization/structure at this point. Much like PB's development, things MIGHT be happening behind the scenes, but if it's not being seen, it's not generating excitement.

Second, I've only got an anecdotal point, but it seems the ship has sailed on ruling the world, at least in Australia. A friend of mine has been trying to sell his pledge for almost a month now, at less than what he paid for it (which with the change in conversion rates is over 20% off the Kickstarter price), and hasn't gotten any interest. And it's not even about people who are concerned about purchasing the Wave 2 stuff so far in advance. He's offering the stuff on hand, a box set + battlecry Wave 1 + two Destroid boxes (from the Daedelus) separately, for little more than what a box set (sans BC Wave 1 + expansions) goes for at retail. No bites (other than one guy querying a single Destroid box). In a month.

Stocktigon wrote:Things that need to be done, that we can do are:
- Make a compact, one page rule description for the game. A cheat sheet for players to know what options they have in a given turn.
- A one page vocabulary sheet for quickly looking up rules and descriptions of rules, examples of correct play, etc.
- An Excel army list builder so anyone can use it to build armies.
- Whatever we want as long as we don't break any rules.

All good ideas. Get to work.

Stocktigon · Unread post by **Stocktigon** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:56 pm

First I want to say...wow. Nice replies! I was ready for a crap storm/troll storm/(insert noun) storm but...this...this was actual civil discourse. That was rather enjoyable.

@ kryptt: Amen brother. It does suck to hear week after week, "it's coming!" Then nothing is leaked or given...it loses its effect after a while.

@ Forar: All good points, can't really argue with what was said. There have been some burned bridges but they are learning. I can see their progress from not knowing anything, to slowly making changes and getting better. They actually listened and made changes to models and for a while there were making weekly updates. They have slipped back into some bad habits but I see hope at the end of the tunnel. I think we need to check in with them at the Open House and try to see if we can't get a fuller picture of what is going on.

@ Morgan Vening: Yes. I am a backer. I dropped about $200 on the Kickstarter. Then recently bought about $100 more. Gotta have more Destroids!

Overall, I agree with your points as well. Now, how to make it better:
- I recommend we have someone who is going to the Open House write a report on what is going on and is in charge of getting the low down (if possible) of what is going on with Wave 2. I volunteer to do so.
- I am going to start a thread to help coordinate any volunteers to help with materials to make the game experience more enjoyable and easier to understand.
- I think WE should sound the Megaversal Protoplasmic Conch that can summon a Palladium employee to comment on this thread that they have read it and they understand our concerns. I'll start:

**WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA**

We'll go from there.

Thank you all for the discussion. That was actually a pleasant experience.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:43 pm

To address something directly;

Stocktigon wrote:- I think WE should sound the Megaversal Protoplasmic Conch that can summon a Palladium employee to comment on this thread that they have read it and they understand our concerns.

It doesn't seem to work that way. While Wayne or Jeff will occasionally swing through, it's pretty infrequent to have actual 'on the payroll' staff on the forums.

The regulars will be quick to point out that PB folks don't read or participate in the forums very often.

Kind of like I'm doing now.

Hrm....

agent_orange · Unread post by **agent_orange** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:52 pm

theres a lot of work being done by the fans already, this went up very recently for example http://robotech-rpg-tactics.wikia.com/w ... ctics_Wiki

There does seem to be a disconnect between backers and other fans. for one a number of backers are not actually Palladium players ( I for one had never heard of them before the tactics KS) What one group accepts as the norm is not what is acceptable to others.

I think the non backers (and backers who know how this company operate) are happy to wait for the awesome to arrive but backers who are more used to Kickstarter expect to see more progress and information on the process than they have, especially when something is as overdue as this project is. if people were informed of the details of the progress as well as the delays then they would be more patient. as an example there was a podcast interview with one of the palladium guys where he was saying that they had to delay 4 weeks cause the cardstock they wanted to use wasn't available. backers were never told that and there's a month delay on its own.

Kickstarter actually has a process outlined for projects being delayed:
What should creators do if they're having problems completing their project?

If problems come up, creators are expected to post a project update explaining the situation. Sharing the story, speed bumps and all, is crucial. Most backers support projects because they want to see something happen and they'd like to be a part of it. Creators who are honest and transparent will usually find backers to be understanding.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:03 pm

That's just it. The creators in this project have been everything, but be honest and transparent. We were misinformed about the status of wave one, then all the behind the scenes access that was promised during the campaign has been either non existent to half a$$ed.

wilycoyote · Unread post by **wilycoyote** » Sat May 02, 2015 8:47 am

Kryptt, this is spot on, there is a disconnect and dare I say it dismissive attitude in PB to RRT, it has to visibly change

The comments in the weekly PB about RRT are getting shorter - one line this time around - with nothing but promises of how good things are.
No update to the KS site for well over a month. It is hard to imagine that anyone could try harder to alienate a fledging fan base more.

Yes there are fans of the game - I even got enough models together to play some of the intro scenarios and it plays well - but by not actively linking up with your fans and providing some more impetus, the game is floundering at the moment. Wave 2 should have been an opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and relaunch the franchise, but sadly PB for whatever reason simply will not pick up the ball.

My advice, for what it is worth, take some time out from other future projects and simply spend a few hours composing an honest frank assessment of the state of RRT and where you are up to with wave 2. Do not, repeat do not use your theasaurus for oher words for amazing, keep it plain, simple but above all honest. If nothing else you might deflect some of the negativity you seem to have been so good at generating in some quaters

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Sat May 02, 2015 10:39 am

Well, for a few weeks now Kevin has made these long updates that he's got a big update, but nothing has come of it. Basically it's just updates about an update. To make things worse according to the last update it seems like the famous ADHD that seems to overtake Kevin has struck again. The way it's worded it looks like rrt has taken a back seat to their RPGs projects.

It seems like some backers have had enough. Supposedly there's a cabal of backers who are looking at having charges filed at pb, allegedly. Please take this last part with a huge grain of salt. This is coming from Rick ya know.

Maxgravity · Unread post by **Maxgravity** » Sat May 02, 2015 6:50 pm

I kind of figure that they are sitting on the RRT update until on/after the 16th. That will allow them to make it a big announcement not just at the Open House but also at the RRT tournament there and allows them to give the attendees the "insider" scoop before it becomes public.

-MaxGravity

Morgan Vening · Sat May 02, 2015 8:52 pm

Maxgravity wrote:I kind of figure that they are sitting on the RRT update until on/after the 16th. That will allow them to make it a big announcement not just at the Open House but also at the RRT tournament there and allows them to give the attendees the "insider" scoop before it becomes public.

If that's the case, it's a bad case. Sure, if there's something super spectacular, you could hold THAT for the inside scoop. But radio silence on all progress for over two months (no, I don't count the shipping Update), when you've already got a reputation for procrastination, does you no good.

And that's part of the problem. Every couple of months, PB seem to think they can get right back into credibility with one swing. One awesome post, and everything's back on track. And that's just NOT how it works, especially as they fall right back into old habits. Reputations and credibility take work and consistency to establish, and when they're tarnished (or in this case heavily corroded), a lot more work and consistency.

If they're as far along as they've claimed, they should be able to post digital breakdowns or developmental work on the resins, once a week from now until Christmas (literally!). Let alone pre-production prototypes or test sprues. But instead, clam up, attempt to build up hype (and I say attempt, because I doubt anyone's buying in anymore), and hope to knock it out of the park after two seasons of mostly striking out, with an occasional ground ball to first. But c'est la vie.

rosco60559 · Unread post by **rosco60559** » Sat May 02, 2015 10:41 pm

It'll be funny as hell if they decide to tell the players at that tourney thus huge news first. Think of it then those players whom I'm sure are not scared of technology will post he info and scoop pb on this big news, thus once again we backers hear news from someone else first again.
Seriously though pb needed to throwing little tid bits leading to this huge news, not going silent. The silence really isn't helping anything.

Maxgravity · Unread post by **Maxgravity** » Sun May 03, 2015 12:35 am

rosco60559 wrote:Think of it then those players whom I'm sure are not scared of technology will post he info and scoop pb on this big news, thus once again we backers hear news from someone else first again.

Only if they truly have no clue. A fairly standard PR tactic is to send out embargoed press releases that are restricted from going public until a certain point in time. All that PB would have to do is embargo the releases until a point they've scheduled for the announcement at the event and then make sure to keep on schedule so the embargo doesn't expire before the actual announcement.

-MaxGravity

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Sun May 03, 2015 2:24 am

Which wouldn't explain why they've spent literally months teasing 'omg soon omg you guys!'

This is a gathering of fans, not the press. An 'embargo' would just complicate matters, and is several layers too unnecessarily official.

If that truly were the case, they should've just said "at the POH there'll be a bit announcement!" and they'd have retained the hype with a light at the end of the tunnel/built in countdown.

And then do it. Just... fricking do it. Have someone hit Post on Kickstarter/PBNL/Whatever and then spill the beans to the folks at the event for a few minutes. Info goes out at vaguely the same time but those at the event get to see whatever these is to show 'in the flesh', but nobody is 'scooped' or needs an NDA in place.

They have like three dozen different products that should be at various stages of development, and have been underway for up to the last 1-2.5 years. There *should* be oodles more to say than merely 'omg you guyyyyyys!' at this point.

Especially with the current tentative retail date less than 7 months away, meaning backer delivery should at least start in 6 or less, which means production on at least a container worth needs to wrap up in 5 or so.

There is too much to do and too little time for them not to have a big pile to drop on us unless they need to revise that estimate again.

And as the weeks go by, once again getting closer and closer until it's an impossible to meet date before declaring it as such isn't going to soften the blow to the community.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Sun May 03, 2015 5:30 pm

At the rate this is progressing maybe wave two won't be out till next year. Maybe