How Would You Try To Destroy the Xiticix?

[Killer Cyborg]

Dodge bonuses for high-speed SAMAS are nice but I'll always take a strike penalty since it can help avoid dodges or called shots.

Why bother with called shots? AoE damage hits everything. So if (after halving) I do 60 MD to everything you're carrying with a proximity fused warhead, and your helmet only has 50 MDC...

AoE only hits every target, not every part of every target.
Remember, you cannot hit anything other than the Main Body unless you make a Called Shot, and a Called Shot is impossible with an AoE effect.

[Blue_Lion]

Dodge bonuses for high-speed SAMAS are nice but I'll always take a strike penalty since it can help avoid dodges or called shots.

Why bother with called shots? AoE damage hits everything. So if (after halving) I do 60 MD to everything you're carrying with a proximity fused warhead, and your helmet only has 50 MDC...

AoE only hits every target, not every part of every target.
Remember, you cannot hit anything other than the Main Body unless you make a Called Shot, and a Called Shot is impossible with an AoE effect.

Wait is that debate popping up again in another thread. It seamed pretty clear last time that aoe hitting every part was just bad attempt at rules layering.

In fact I am seeing several topics that have been debated before and not proven as absolute starting to show up in recent post (in this thread) as facts of how things do work. (Such as flat lines energy has the nock back of a grenade debate.)

[eliakon]

Dodge bonuses for high-speed SAMAS are nice but I'll always take a strike penalty since it can help avoid dodges or called shots.

Why bother with called shots? AoE damage hits everything. So if (after halving) I do 60 MD to everything you're carrying with a proximity fused warhead, and your helmet only has 50 MDC...

AoE only hits every target, not every part of every target.
Remember, you cannot hit anything other than the Main Body unless you make a Called Shot, and a Called Shot is impossible with an AoE effect.

Wait is that debate popping up again in another thread. It seamed pretty clear last time that aoe hitting every part was just bad attempt at rules layering.

In fact I am seeing several topics that have been debated before and not proven as absolute starting to show up in recent post (in this thread) as facts of how things do work. (Such as flat lines energy has the nock back of a grenade debate.)

It basically is. Its an attempt to try and make a statement, then support changing the rules to make it legal by arguing that on the surface its logical. And then exploiting the illogical result of the change to get to a result that is as equally illogical as the one that it purports to 'fix' (This was my take away from the last time this reared its head)

[Tor]

Why bother with called shots? AoE damage hits everything.

because direct hits inflict full damage, and many high-damage or high-range weapons lack AoE effects, or you might be trying to shoot someone holding a hostage or you might want to avoid damaging gear the guy has so you can sell it or use it yourself

if (after halving) I do 60 MD to everything you're carrying with a proximity fused warhead, and your helmet only has 50 MDC...

Missiles are an example of a long-range high-damage weapon with AoE, but they are very expensive to use, and hard to store a large payload of.

They also have unique countermeasures, such as that thing in JU which can throw off their aim. Their strike roll doesn't matter if you choose to shoot it down instead of dodging it. Also: nlike a dodge, you don't take 1/2 from a near-miss, far as I know.

Shoot-down is less a good counter if you're using a volley, since there's a chance the non-shot volley members may survive. Less so if a mini-missile is used to shoot it down since that increases the chances.

I do wonder though: does half damage from a dodge (near-miss) from a missile still apply if the missile's target is in the air? There's no ground to hit if the guy jumps out of the way. Can missiles be coded to explode in proximity or after traveling a given distance, if they go past their intended target?

I always figured the near-miss AoE stuff was like, a missile was coming at you from above, you move, it hits the ground and booms you. Doesn't seem like it'd happen in mid-air unless the guy firing the missile had some kind of remote detonator.

AoE only hits every target, not every part of every target.
Remember, you cannot hit anything other than the Main Body unless you make a Called Shot, and a Called Shot is impossible with an AoE effect.

Wait is that debate popping up again in another thread. It seamed pretty clear last time that aoe hitting every part was just bad attempt at rules layering.

It basically is. Its an attempt to try and make a statement, then support changing the rules to make it legal by arguing that on the surface its logical. And then exploiting the illogical result of the change to get to a result that is as equally illogical as the one that it purports to 'fix' (This was my take away from the last time this reared its head)

I think I still disagree with this, but would prefer if we could locate and bump whatever old thread we were discussing it on months ago (so long as less than 12, would create new in that case) rather than have it out here. We're already going a bit far from Xiticix, unless we want to know if only the main body of a Xiticix would take nade damage and leave behind perfectly intact head/limbs when they die.

What other thread has this AoE debate recently btw BL?

In fact I am seeing several topics that have been debated before and not proven as absolute starting to show up in recent post (in this thread) as facts of how things do work. (Such as flat lines energy has the nock back of a grenade debate.)

What thread has Flatline brought this up at?

Actually... do all grenades even have knockback? Not sure if plasma would. Physical-based frag nades/missiles or AP missiles or rail gun shots I could see having knocking power although I can't recall any rules to apply the concept.

I do wonder if some energy weapons, even though they lack kinetic energy... maybe if upon hitting they created an explosion that could convert it to kinetic somehow?

[Killer Cyborg]

Dodge bonuses for high-speed SAMAS are nice but I'll always take a strike penalty since it can help avoid dodges or called shots.

Why bother with called shots? AoE damage hits everything. So if (after halving) I do 60 MD to everything you're carrying with a proximity fused warhead, and your helmet only has 50 MDC...

AoE only hits every target, not every part of every target.
Remember, you cannot hit anything other than the Main Body unless you make a Called Shot, and a Called Shot is impossible with an AoE effect.

Wait is that debate popping up again in another thread. It seamed pretty clear last time that aoe hitting every part was just bad attempt at rules layering.

In fact I am seeing several topics that have been debated before and not proven as absolute starting to show up in recent post (in this thread) as facts of how things do work. (Such as flat lines energy has the nock back of a grenade debate.)

Welcome to the Palladium Forums, where old topics never die, they just take naps from time to time.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Full Induced Fusion Nuclear Warheads in the megaton range till the hives are holes.
The only problem is getting the H[sup]3[/sup] to fuel them all to get squeeky clean nukes.

DK - a FUSION weapon is not a nuke... Besides, if you want a "clean" nuke, it's called an airburst. The less matter involved in the actual blast area, the less fall-out.

Minor nitpick...Tritium is denoted as "[sup]3[/sup]H" when not listed as "T"

The less Irradiating radiation the cleaner the Nuke.

Nuclear Fusion bombs/warheads are nukes as much as fission ones.
------------
Along with Induced fusion nukes, KEWs are the thing to do the job. But for that to happen the MiO cultures would have to care about the homeworld.

[Tor]

they just take naps from time to time.

I wish I could remember where that old thread is napping. I can't think what terms to search to relocate it. Were I less busy it'd be easier to check replies... can't remember who started it or who I was bouncing it with.

[Killer Cyborg]

they just take naps from time to time.

I wish I could remember where that old thread is napping. I can't think what terms to search to relocate it. Were I less busy it'd be easier to check replies... can't remember who started it or who I was bouncing it with.

For blast radius vs. hit locations?
Here's one.
I'm usually in the mix, so search for stuff by me, with key words like "called shots blast radius" or whatever and sift.
viewtopic.php?p=2026181#p2026181

[Borast]

If I shoot your helmet with a Wilk's pistol (1d6MD), even if it doesn't do significant damage to the helmet itself, the energy and momentum transfer to the helmet is similar in scale to taping a stick of TNT to the helmet and detonating it.

Consider that for a moment. What happens to your neck if your head is violently wrenched to the side? Arteries burst? Neck snapped?

And what happens to your brain inside the skull? Blood vessels torn?

The energy levels implied for MD combat are crazy scary. That's why in my game, energy levels are greatly reduced.

--flatline

The only thing that would happen is your laser would vapourise some armour and superheat the area around impact, doing the listed MD to the helmet's MDC. Recoil and impact effects from energy weapons, if I recall correctly, are limited to particle weapons, and plasma weapons.
After all, photons are massless, and physical effects at the target's end and recoil are from mass transfer. Now, if there happened to be a small oxygen tank on the helmet that was ruptured by your laser... Hence the rule about SDC damage transfer from MD attacks on power armour.

[flatline]

If I shoot your helmet with a Wilk's pistol (1d6MD), even if it doesn't do significant damage to the helmet itself, the energy and momentum transfer to the helmet is similar in scale to taping a stick of TNT to the helmet and detonating it.

Consider that for a moment. What happens to your neck if your head is violently wrenched to the side? Arteries burst? Neck snapped?

And what happens to your brain inside the skull? Blood vessels torn?

The energy levels implied for MD combat are crazy scary. That's why in my game, energy levels are greatly reduced.

--flatline

The only thing that would happen is your laser would vapourise some armour and superheat the area around impact, doing the listed MD to the helmet's MDC. Recoil and impact effects from energy weapons, if I recall correctly, are limited to particle weapons, and plasma weapons.
After all, photons are massless, and physical effects at the target's end and recoil are from mass transfer.

Not mass, momentum.

Lasers have no mass and minuscule momentum, but the armor material that is "vaporized" has mass and that mass (now in plasma form) flies away from the helmet at extremely high velocities.

mass * velocity = momentum

Since momentum must be conserved, the helmet will experience an equal and opposite change in momentum. This is perceived by the wearer of the helmet as and impulse or jerk that, if of sufficient magnitude, can cause trauma to the brain and/or neck.

--flatline

[eliakon]

If I shoot your helmet with a Wilk's pistol (1d6MD), even if it doesn't do significant damage to the helmet itself, the energy and momentum transfer to the helmet is similar in scale to taping a stick of TNT to the helmet and detonating it.

Consider that for a moment. What happens to your neck if your head is violently wrenched to the side? Arteries burst? Neck snapped?

And what happens to your brain inside the skull? Blood vessels torn?

The energy levels implied for MD combat are crazy scary. That's why in my game, energy levels are greatly reduced.

--flatline

The only thing that would happen is your laser would vapourise some armour and superheat the area around impact, doing the listed MD to the helmet's MDC. Recoil and impact effects from energy weapons, if I recall correctly, are limited to particle weapons, and plasma weapons.
After all, photons are massless, and physical effects at the target's end and recoil are from mass transfer.

Not mass, momentum.

Lasers have no mass and minuscule momentum, but the armor material that is "vaporized" has mass and that mass (now in plasma form) flies away from the helmet at extremely high velocities.

mass * velocity = momentum

Since momentum must be conserved, the helmet will experience an equal and opposite change in momentum. This is perceived by the wearer of the helmet as and impulse or jerk that, if of sufficient magnitude, can cause trauma to the brain and/or neck.

--flatline

Which is why I don't have massive vaporizations or have high speed plasma clouds and stuff....
I prefer to play the game as it is written rather than play some game of 'chase all the rabbits down all the holes and make a perfect simulator of the real world'
Especially since that is utterly boring since I have to remove all ultra-tech, magic, psionics, aliens, and everything else that bends, folds, spindles and multilates the laws of physics as we currently know them......

[Borast]

Either way flatline, the vapourised material does not spew forth at hyper-velocities. It simply boils "gently" away. I've seen industrial lasers and so-called plasma cutters at work. (I used to work at a bus plant.) If they worked according to how you are claiming, the metal being cut would deform on "impact" of the beam. It doesn't.

As I said, the knockback/down rules don't apply to lasers that I remember reading...and if I recall correctly, they are also OPTIONAL. (Not that since this is an RPG we're talking about, it is ALL optional... )

[say652]

Goop Gone.
This product dissolves an incredible 1D6×100mdc of resin material per liquid ounce applied.
Used in squirt guns or more effectively a large tanker truck this can be amazingly helpful with xiticik infestation.
The product has a strong cat urine smell and also disolves rubber and inflicts 1/10th damage to plastic materials.
Also any exposure to the chemical has a 52% chance of causing terminal blood cancer in humans. Nonhumans suffer an additional -17% penalty.
Characters immune to poisins, toxics or gases add their percentage vs coma/Death to save.

[Borast]

Goop Gone

Preeety sure the product name is "Goop-B-Gon"

[wyrmraker]

If I shoot your helmet with a Wilk's pistol (1d6MD), even if it doesn't do significant damage to the helmet itself, the energy and momentum transfer to the helmet is similar in scale to taping a stick of TNT to the helmet and detonating it.

Consider that for a moment. What happens to your neck if your head is violently wrenched to the side? Arteries burst? Neck snapped?

And what happens to your brain inside the skull? Blood vessels torn?

The energy levels implied for MD combat are crazy scary. That's why in my game, energy levels are greatly reduced.

--flatline

The only thing that would happen is your laser would vapourise some armour and superheat the area around impact, doing the listed MD to the helmet's MDC. Recoil and impact effects from energy weapons, if I recall correctly, are limited to particle weapons, and plasma weapons.
After all, photons are massless, and physical effects at the target's end and recoil are from mass transfer.

Not mass, momentum.

Lasers have no mass and minuscule momentum, but the armor material that is "vaporized" has mass and that mass (now in plasma form) flies away from the helmet at extremely high velocities.

mass * velocity = momentum

Since momentum must be conserved, the helmet will experience an equal and opposite change in momentum. This is perceived by the wearer of the helmet as and impulse or jerk that, if of sufficient magnitude, can cause trauma to the brain and/or neck.

--flatline

While I agree with you, perhaps a simpler (and mentally easier) example would be the rail gun round. The NG-R50 Mini-Rail Gun fires a singole round doing 4D6 MD. By comparison, the 66millimeter LAW Rocket (Ninjas & Superspies, p.153) does 1D6X100 SD. The LAW Rocket was used to clear bunkers, and the NG-R50 produces 4 times as much kinetic energy upon impact. I can easily see that gelatinizing a character's internal organs from hydrostatic shock, even through armor.

Or it would be, if the base game rules didn't ignore most of the actual physics of warfae.

[say652]

I think I'll also make it highly intoxicating to any being with more than 100ppe with an 85% addiction rate on the first exposure.

[Borast]

While I agree with you, perhaps a simpler (and mentally easier) example would be the rail gun round. The NG-R50 Mini-Rail Gun fires a singole round doing 4D6 MD. By comparison, the 66millimeter LAW Rocket (Ninjas & Superspies, p.153) does 1D6X100 SD. The LAW Rocket was used to clear bunkers, and the NG-R50 produces 4 times as much kinetic energy upon impact. I can easily see that gelatinizing a character's internal organs from hydrostatic shock, even through armor.

Or it would be, if the base game rules didn't ignore most of the actual physics of warfae.

Scarily enough, if you read the rules literally, that same anti-tank weapon, which SHOULD toss the human recipient several metres on impact/explosion, his MDC armour theoretically makes him immune to the knockback, since knockback is from MD kinetic energy only while wearing MDC armour.

[wyrmraker]

While I agree with you, perhaps a simpler (and mentally easier) example would be the rail gun round. The NG-R50 Mini-Rail Gun fires a singole round doing 4D6 MD. By comparison, the 66millimeter LAW Rocket (Ninjas & Superspies, p.153) does 1D6X100 SD. The LAW Rocket was used to clear bunkers, and the NG-R50 produces 4 times as much kinetic energy upon impact. I can easily see that gelatinizing a character's internal organs from hydrostatic shock, even through armor.

Or it would be, if the base game rules didn't ignore most of the actual physics of warfae.

Scarily enough, if you read the rules literally, that same anti-tank weapon, which SHOULD toss the human recipient several metres on impact/explosion, his MDC armour theoretically makes him immune to the knockback, since knockback is from MD kinetic energy only while wearing MDC armour.

Pretty much. Using actual physics in Rifts is pretty well useless. I am no longer allowed to use basic thermodynamic physics to annihilate my enemies in any Palladium setting run by the usual GM. Not even if I'm playing a character with the skills to actually do so. Or rather, ESPECIALLY not.

[Borast]

Pretty much. Using actual physics in Rifts is pretty well useless. I am no longer allowed to use basic thermodynamic physics to annihilate my enemies in any Palladium setting run by the usual GM. Not even if I'm playing a character with the skills to actually do so. Or rather, ESPECIALLY not.

A friend asked about what I would do if a character able to travel at near "C" speeds were to hit someone with a rune sword as he passed.

I told him that the absolute LEAST that would happen to him would be loss of the arm holding the sword, and his target would likely be annihilated.

I didn't go into the physics of how a physical object travelling at that speed in a 1atm environment would result in the rapid destruction of the object in question. After all, an object entering the atmosphere at M20 will explode at something like 25000m as it "Crashes into Thin Air."

[Shark_Force]

Pretty much. Using actual physics in Rifts is pretty well useless. I am no longer allowed to use basic thermodynamic physics to annihilate my enemies in any Palladium setting run by the usual GM. Not even if I'm playing a character with the skills to actually do so. Or rather, ESPECIALLY not.

A friend asked about what I would do if a character able to travel at near "C" speeds were to hit someone with a rune sword as he passed.

I told him that the absolute LEAST that would happen to him would be loss of the arm holding the sword, and his target would likely be annihilated.

I didn't go into the physics of how a physical object travelling at that speed in a 1atm environment would result in the rapid destruction of the object in question. After all, an object entering the atmosphere at M20 will explode at something like 25000m as it "Crashes into Thin Air."

perhaps you might find this a useful reference for your friend:

https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/

[say652]

According to page 90 hu2.
"To safely enter an atmosphere you have to slow down to speeds less than mach 100...
At anything over 1% lightspeed (6 million miles per hour) the atmosphere at sea level takes on the relative consistency of solid steel."

[Borast]

perhaps you might find this a useful reference for your friend:

https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/

The last line: "A careful reading of official Major League Baseball Rule 6.08(b) suggests that in this situation, the batter would be considered "hit by pitch", and would be eligible to advance to first base."