The Coalition States are not the bad guy

[Killer Cyborg]

Morality a human construct, people aren't good or evil based off another's actions, or their responsibility for other's actions. If the universe is fair, they should be judged off their own actions. Lumping a population into one category based off the actions of a few is the same kind of generalising the CS does to their enemies.

That was my argument. Sorry i wasn't clear enough that you had to make a post like that.

Which is a great philosophical argument in the real world.

But in the game universe Morality isn't a human construct. Its one of the fundamental laws of nature.

Yup.

[Alrik Vas]

Except there's no calculation in alignment. It's the GM's call. There is no point for point involved, only guidelines.

And what do you mean when you call the CS a meta-entity? Because the societal construct of the CS, the regime, is evil. I don't dispute that. Yet when the average person is merely selfish, and not evil, by the game's alignment system, I don't see how that makes them evil.

The statement of the posts title, about the CS not being the bad guy, doesn't exclude the regime from being an evil thing, it just asserts they aren't the villain of the setting. While this is a dynamic thing (as in, your campaign revolves around a struggle against the CS it would indeed be the bad guy) it doesn't automatically put them in that slot. A game about the struggle against demon and deevil invaders of all north America, for instance, wouldn't ultimately paint the regime that way.

I think we're confusing the issues here.

[eliakon]

Except there's no calculation in alignment. It's the GM's call. There is no point for point involved, only guidelines.

What I mean is that its NOT a 'GM's call' There are rules, they say what you can or can not do. If you break those rules then you are not in the class of things that follows that rule. The rules for alignment are pretty straight forward. There is a set of things. If you follow all the rules you are Principled, if you break a few you are no longer principled so you move down to Scrupulous....and so on and so forth. You don't get to say "well I only murder and rape on Tuesdays so that means 6/7 days I am principled, so I am still my call is that I am Good" You instead have to say "Well lets see, I am willing to murder and rape so my choices seem to be either Miscreant or Diabolic...guess that means I am evil"

And what do you mean when you call the CS a meta-entity? Because the societal construct of the CS, the regime, is evil. I don't dispute that. Yet when the average person is merely selfish, and not evil, by the game's alignment system, I don't see how that makes them evil.

I mean that if the CS was being judged by its actions as a body politic then it would have to be evil (The CS is willing to torture for pleasure, the CS is willing to break its word, the CS is willing to kill unarmed innocents etc.)

The statement of the posts title, about the CS not being the bad guy, doesn't exclude the regime from being an evil thing, it just asserts they aren't the villain of the setting. While this is a dynamic thing (as in, your campaign revolves around a struggle against the CS it would indeed be the bad guy) it doesn't automatically put them in that slot. A game about the struggle against demon and deevil invaders of all north America, for instance, wouldn't ultimately paint the regime that way.

The original post was pretty explicit that they were trying to say that the CS was not a bad guy. If my campaign is set in China then yes, they are not going to be the dynamic bad guy....this doesn't make them any less of a bad guy. Evil is still evil, even if it is off torturing people off stage.

I think we're confusing the issues here.

That is possible.
I though do not see any way that one can have an evil empire, one that's actions as a political entity are evil, lead by evil people who are doing evil for selfish reasons can be anything but a bad guy.

[Tor]

What's the source for non-humans getting bonus dice? Honestly don't recall that being a thing.

I forget where, but it's somewhere.

Not sure if there is a Rifts source for it, but it's on PF2p14 under the bolded 'nonhuman characters'.

Except there's no calculation in alignment. It's the GM's call. There is no point for point involved, only guidelines.

No, there are both guidelines and rules. "Never" or "Always" vs "sometimes" or "usually" type stuff.

the societal construct of the CS, the regime, is evil. I don't dispute that. Yet when the average person is merely selfish, and not evil, by the game's alignment system, I don't see how that makes them evil.

I'm not even sure the average person is selfish. If the average is "good and selfish" the mode alignment could even be Principled for all we know.

I don't see the societal construct or regime as evil, really, just very conservative.

[Nightmask]

Except there's no calculation in alignment. It's the GM's call. There is no point for point involved, only guidelines.

And what do you mean when you call the CS a meta-entity? Because the societal construct of the CS, the regime, is evil. I don't dispute that. Yet when the average person is merely selfish, and not evil, by the game's alignment system, I don't see how that makes them evil.

The statement of the posts title, about the CS not being the bad guy, doesn't exclude the regime from being an evil thing, it just asserts they aren't the villain of the setting. While this is a dynamic thing (as in, your campaign revolves around a struggle against the CS it would indeed be the bad guy) it doesn't automatically put them in that slot. A game about the struggle against demon and deevil invaders of all north America, for instance, wouldn't ultimately paint the regime that way.

I think we're confusing the issues here.

Except the CS is indeed one of the bad guys/villains in the setting, there is no 'there can be only one' deal when it comes to bad guys and villains. On the rare occasions that the CS is fighting actual demons or other villainous parties that doesn't make the CS a good guy anymore than two rival gangs battling means one must be the good guy, they're both bad guys. What you have is 'evil against evil' not 'if those guys are evil then anyone fighting them must be good'. If the Splugorth waged a war against the Vampire Kingdoms it wouldn't make the Splugorth good either.

[Alrik Vas]

There isn't only one bad guy, there isn't only one good guy. I don't disagree with that. I do think, however, that the Coalition's effort in protecting north America is genuine and extends beyond complete self-interest.

[eliakon]

There isn't only one bad guy, there isn't only one good guy. I don't disagree with that. I do think, however, that the Coalition's effort in protecting north America is genuine and extends beyond complete self-interest.

They are not protecting North America. They are trying to conquer it for them selves.
If they were 'protecting' it then they would not be doing stuff like taking out Iron Heart, or Nuking Tolkeen, or exterminating the Slurmph. The Cyber-Knights I can buy as 'protecting North America' the CS though is a text book example of complete self-interest. They are only interested in protecting things that help them. The Burbs are a perfect example. Thousands of humans, who are being denied protection because it is in the CS interest to keep them as outsiders so they can use them as expendable troops. And that's humans that they are abusing and exploiting.

[Tor]

What qualifies as protecting North America? I mean, technically the Xiticix are protecting North America too... they like to cover continents in MDC resin and stuff so this would protect the continent.

The Coalition are protectors of nature though (they don't use U-rounds) and they are protecting humanity primarily, and even some non-threatening D-Bees as a side effect.

The very fact that D-Bees still flock to the Burbs even with the CS doing purges shows they are still preferable to living in the wilderness.

Tolkeen're a bunch of demon-summoners they helped dig hellpits in NA they're not good for the land or its people.

[Killer Cyborg]

Except there's no calculation in alignment. It's the GM's call.

As opposed to that other part of the game?

[Killer Cyborg]

There isn't only one bad guy, there isn't only one good guy. I don't disagree with that. I do think, however, that the Coalition's effort in protecting north America is genuine and extends beyond complete self-interest.

They are not protecting North America. They are trying to conquer it for them selves.

Those are NOT mutually exclusive.

[Killer Cyborg]

What's the source for non-humans getting bonus dice? Honestly don't recall that being a thing.

I forget where, but it's somewhere.

Not sure if there is a Rifts source for it, but it's on PF2p14 under the bolded 'nonhuman characters'.

That's it.
Thanks!

[Pepsi Jedi]

There isn't only one bad guy, there isn't only one good guy. I don't disagree with that. I do think, however, that the Coalition's effort in protecting north America is genuine and extends beyond complete self-interest.

They are not protecting North America. They are trying to conquer it for them selves.
If they were 'protecting' it then they would not be doing stuff like taking out Iron Heart, or Nuking Tolkeen, or exterminating the Slurmph. The Cyber-Knights I can buy as 'protecting North America' the CS though is a text book example of complete self-interest. They are only interested in protecting things that help them. The Burbs are a perfect example. Thousands of humans, who are being denied protection because it is in the CS interest to keep them as outsiders so they can use them as expendable troops. And that's humans that they are abusing and exploiting.

Um... when did the CS "Take out" Iron heart? And for the record they didn't nuke Tolkeen. One general attempted to, but failed. And not sure what you mean by 'exterminating the Slurmph.

In the case of Megaverse in flames and Heroes of Humanity, the CS very much are playing the parts of "Heroes" fighting against the demonic and deevilish invaders for the betterment of humankind, (And not just humans. They'll be working along side Dbees and mages to do it) Sure, after the war is over the CS might turn back against the Dbees and Mages but for the time being, they're turning a blind eye and using the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality to try and preserve humanity and earth against the invading demonic and deevilish hordes.

[flatline]

In the case of Megaverse in flames and Heroes of Humanity, the CS very much are playing the parts of "Heroes" fighting against the demonic and deevilish invaders for the betterment of humankind

Did you mean "preservation" or "survival" instead of "betterment"?

"Betterment" implies that the CS is somehow improving humankind which is clearly not the case.

--flatline

[eliakon]

There isn't only one bad guy, there isn't only one good guy. I don't disagree with that. I do think, however, that the Coalition's effort in protecting north America is genuine and extends beyond complete self-interest.

They are not protecting North America. They are trying to conquer it for them selves.
If they were 'protecting' it then they would not be doing stuff like taking out Iron Heart, or Nuking Tolkeen, or exterminating the Slurmph. The Cyber-Knights I can buy as 'protecting North America' the CS though is a text book example of complete self-interest. They are only interested in protecting things that help them. The Burbs are a perfect example. Thousands of humans, who are being denied protection because it is in the CS interest to keep them as outsiders so they can use them as expendable troops. And that's humans that they are abusing and exploiting.

Um... when did the CS "Take out" Iron heart? And for the record they didn't nuke Tolkeen. One general attempted to, but failed. And not sure what you mean by 'exterminating the Slurmph.

That would be
1) iron heart armaments that they invaded and annexed
2) The CS battle plan was a massive nuclear strike it was not some rouge generals plan
3) the hundreds of thousands that they have killed would be the extermination I am talking about

In the case of Megaverse in flames and Heroes of Humanity, the CS very much are playing the parts of "Heroes" fighting against the demonic and deevilish invaders for the betterment of humankind, (And not just humans. They'll be working along side Dbees and mages to do it) Sure, after the war is over the CS might turn back against the Dbees and Mages but for the time being, they're turning a blind eye and using the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality to try and preserve humanity and earth against the invading demonic and deevilish hordes.

In MiF they are just fighting in self defense. Their 'heroism' was that they were willing to leak intelligence information second hand....that's hardly heroic.
And in HoH (at least the book information we have) I didn't see anything about being heroic. I saw stuff about mass executions, killing prisoners rather than bothering to lock them up, genocide, and using captives as slave soldiers against the xictic for research projects.....hardly the stuff of heroes
They are not trying to 'preserve humanity' in the slightest. They are trying to 'preserve the CS Empire for the glory of the CS' If the cared about humanity then they would actually do stuff for the humans. Stuff other than 'you can rot in our burbs with no protection unless you serve as expendable cannon fodder for our wars of conquest and extermination' and 'you can work for us....but only if you first renounce learning, execute or drive out all non-humans in your midst." ohhh yeah "and you must toe the political line. No dissention will be allowed." (Free Quebec, Iron Heart Arms et multiple cetera)
The only 'heroism' here is in the propaganda the CS puts out to justify their evil and atrocities.

[Nightmask]

In the case of Megaverse in flames and Heroes of Humanity, the CS very much are playing the parts of "Heroes" fighting against the demonic and deevilish invaders for the betterment of humankind, (And not just humans. They'll be working along side Dbees and mages to do it) Sure, after the war is over the CS might turn back against the Dbees and Mages but for the time being, they're turning a blind eye and using the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality to try and preserve humanity and earth against the invading demonic and deevilish hordes.

In MiF they are just fighting in self defense. Their 'heroism' was that they were willing to leak intelligence information second hand....that's hardly heroic.
And in HoH (at least the book information we have) I didn't see anything about being heroic. I saw stuff about mass executions, killing prisoners rather than bothering to lock them up, genocide, and using captives as slave soldiers against the xictic for research projects.....hardly the stuff of heroes
They are not trying to 'preserve humanity' in the slightest. They are trying to 'preserve the CS Empire for the glory of the CS' If the cared about humanity then they would actually do stuff for the humans. Stuff other than 'you can rot in our burbs with no protection unless you serve as expendable cannon fodder for our wars of conquest and extermination' and 'you can work for us....but only if you first renounce learning, execute or drive out all non-humans in your midst." ohhh yeah "and you must toe the political line. No dissention will be allowed." (Free Quebec, Iron Heart Arms et multiple cetera)
The only 'heroism' here is in the propaganda the CS puts out to justify their evil and atrocities.

Got to agree, there's zero heroism on the part of the CS it's all about ensuring their own survival and eliminate another threat to their goals of world domination and the genocide of all non-humans (including those who were born on Earth and predate humanity making Earth more their world than those 'upstart' humans in that regard) and magic-users. They no more qualify as heroes than Atlantis would in the fight, just evil fighting evil.

[Pepsi Jedi]

In the case of Megaverse in flames and Heroes of Humanity, the CS very much are playing the parts of "Heroes" fighting against the demonic and deevilish invaders for the betterment of humankind

Did you mean "preservation" or "survival" instead of "betterment"?

"Betterment" implies that the CS is somehow improving humankind which is clearly not the case.

--flatline

I had actually mean preservation or survival of humankind in that statement.

As for betterment, the CS -is- doing that as well. The CS Is the main human civilization in North America and has crawled back up out of the dark ages and secured parts of NA again for humanity, through their military might, have allowed the rise of humankind again on/in North America for humanity. As pointed out, if you add up all the other human settlements in NA you don't even remotely approach the CS numbers.

Yes. the CS advancing and bettering Humankind in rifts earth. Just because you don't like their politics doesn't change that aspect.

[Pepsi Jedi]

There isn't only one bad guy, there isn't only one good guy. I don't disagree with that. I do think, however, that the Coalition's effort in protecting north America is genuine and extends beyond complete self-interest.

They are not protecting North America. They are trying to conquer it for them selves.
If they were 'protecting' it then they would not be doing stuff like taking out Iron Heart, or Nuking Tolkeen, or exterminating the Slurmph. The Cyber-Knights I can buy as 'protecting North America' the CS though is a text book example of complete self-interest. They are only interested in protecting things that help them. The Burbs are a perfect example. Thousands of humans, who are being denied protection because it is in the CS interest to keep them as outsiders so they can use them as expendable troops. And that's humans that they are abusing and exploiting.

Um... when did the CS "Take out" Iron heart? And for the record they didn't nuke Tolkeen. One general attempted to, but failed. And not sure what you mean by 'exterminating the Slurmph.

That would be
1) iron heart armaments that they invaded and annexed

Iron Heart petitioned to join the CS and there were negotiations. the CS wanted the Science museum that was located there. Iron Heart is the second most important CS state. They do alot of the dirty work and manufacturing for the CS. To quote from Aftermath page 143: "Unlike Free Quebec, the leaders and people of Iron Heart perceive the CS as the great new empire of the Americas and the salvation of humankind. They are 100% loyal to Emperor Prosek and live by the letter of all CS Laws and morality." It goes on to say that with new found praise, that they're more loyal than ever...

2) The CS battle plan was a massive nuclear strike it was not some rouge generals plan

Might want to recheck that.

3) the hundreds of thousands that they have killed would be the extermination I am talking about

Ok there's 50+ books for rifts, but what is a Slurmph? And where did the CS kill 'Hundreds of thousands" of them? I don't remember that. What book is it in and where?

In the case of Megaverse in flames and Heroes of Humanity, the CS very much are playing the parts of "Heroes" fighting against the demonic and deevilish invaders for the betterment of humankind, (And not just humans. They'll be working along side Dbees and mages to do it) Sure, after the war is over the CS might turn back against the Dbees and Mages but for the time being, they're turning a blind eye and using the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality to try and preserve humanity and earth against the invading demonic and deevilish hordes.

In MiF they are just fighting in self defense.

They're also fighting in Self defense, because to not, would mean eradication by the demons and devils, but not 'Just'. It's not like the CS are 'just' sitting back and fighting when the demons and deevils come around. They're going after them in an offensive way as well.

Their 'heroism' was that they were willing to leak intelligence information second hand....that's hardly heroic

Information in war is often worth much more than troops or arms. Information is invaluable. Theyr'e also looking the other way from their normal foes and standing down aggression on those fronts. Yes it's heroic to gather an army of millions to stand against demonic invasion and eradication.

And in HoH (at least the book information we have) I didn't see anything about being heroic.

It's like mentioned way earlier in the thread. You've already painted them as some comic book villian due to them wearing black, so your mind is made up. Rallying humans from North america, and forming an army millions strong to fight literal Demonic invaders is heroic.

I saw stuff about mass executions, killing prisoners rather than bothering to lock them up, genocide, and using captives as slave soldiers against the xictic for research projects.....hardly the stuff of heroes.

Are we talking "Genocide" against the Demonic invaders? Or "Genocide" against the insectoid invaders? Also pointed out previously in this thread. Those are concidered acts of 'Light" when heroes do it. Are you actually taking a pause and pointing out that it's Genocide to kill the armies of demon and deevil invaders? or the Billions of Xits invading our planet? You're sure painting some of this with a slanted brush. And people said the CS has a PR machine. Are you going to keep Demons as prisoners? or Xiticiks?

They are not trying to 'preserve humanity' in the slightest.

You must have a different definition of it than I do. To preserve humanity, first humanity has to survive. Which means the Demons and Devils have to go. Go as in flee or go as in die. Either way, humanity isn't safe till their gone. We're not talking about a demon taking over a small town out in the boon docks. This is a concentrated effort by megaversal legions of demons and devils to invade and take over the planet and turn it -literally- into another hell.

Yes, fighting those forces, preserves humanity.

They are trying to 'preserve the CS Empire for the glory of the CS'

Just Spin. the CS are humans. (For the most part). Preserving the CS is in part, Preserving humanity. Thing is they're taking in humans NOT of the CS, training them, arming them and fighting against the Demons. MILLIONS of them. No other nation on earth has done that.

If the cared about humanity then they would actually do stuff for the humans.

Like.... fight back the demonic hordes that would kill or enslave humans and turn earth to Hell? Like that?

Stuff other than 'you can rot in our burbs with no protection unless you serve as expendable cannon fodder for our wars of conquest and extermination'

They do 'do' more than that. The CS has population in the MILLIONS before you add in the new recruits for the wars. Your argument is akin to saying that the US doesn't help every single person in the Congo so they don't do anything at all for humans. the US does. It just looks after it's own people first, then forigien aid second. We allow people to join our country but not as many as want to. the CS is the same way. They allow people to join the CS, but not just everyone that knocks on the door. And we're not even in a post apoc setting. Your logic fails when looked at, in any depth.

and 'you can work for us....but only if you first renounce learning, execute or drive out all non-humans in your midst."

If you want protection in a post apocolyptic setting where a cat could turn into a 50 foot tall dragon and eat your face at any moment. You play by the rules of those you're asking for protection from. I don't say I agree with all the CS policies, but again, it'd be like trying to become a US Citizen but complaining you're not allowed to stone your wife if you THINK she MIGHT have cheated on you. GAW!! They don't let you do that any more?? HOW DARE THEY!????

*shrugs* You're asking to join them. You play by their rules.

ohhh yeah "and you must toe the political line. No dissention will be allowed." (Free Quebec, Iron Heart Arms et multiple cetera

Free Quebec are allies to the CS now. Claimed to be Brothers in arms (and not for nothing, are MORE Xenophobic than the standard CS. they won't even use dog boys and stuff) So that arguement is false.

And again you're on about Iron Heart.... Iron Heart is a valued member of the CS and 100% loyal. I'm not sure where you're getting that stuff.

The only 'heroism' here is in the propaganda the CS puts out to justify their evil and atrocities.

So... fighting demons and xits are evil and atrocities when the CS does it, but they're heroic acts when Lazlo does it?

How's that work? Do Lazlo and their heroes kill the demons with kindness? I mean they are demons but that sounds like a rather ineffective tactic. If nothing else it seems very much like you're taking the CS actions here, ascribing evil intent to them and spinning them as evil, vs the other way around.

I do give you credit for taking on the 'It's genocide' when peopel fight demons and insectoid invaders, but I don't think most people are going to jump on that wagon. Even Lazlo and the 'good guys' are fighting the same fight.

[eliakon]

Slumph are in DeeDees of North America, where it says that the CS has killed hundreds of thousands of them

Iron Heart Armamnets (New Kenora) was invaded and conqured. 9% of the population was executed out of hand (mostly dee-bees)

Free Quebec expressed a desire to leave the CS. (remember officially the CS is a coalition, it is not a central government in Chi-Town....or it wasn't). Prosek declared them traitors and attacked first. Because they dared to do what they had the legal right to....but hurt his dreams of power.

SoT 1 pg 7 "And we are not talking the normal casualties of war, the Coalition Army has mad it clear in both words and deeds that this is a ware of genocide (emphasis in the text). There will be few, if any prisoners taken or people allowed to live. All practitioners of magic and nonhumans, their supporters, sympathizers and defenders shall be exterminated!"
That sort of doesn't leave any ambiguity about the CS goals or plans in Tolkeen.

Sot 2 pg 15 "This book might come a sa bit of a shock to die-hard Coalition fans, because it will not (emphasis theirs) paint a very pretty picture of our boys in black. In fact for the most part, Coalition Overkill is all about how the Coalition is the bad guy, the aggressor, the oppressor. After all, is this really so hard to believe? Sometimes, folks lose sight of this, perhaps because the Coalition employs such a dazzling array of technology tat from a playing standpoint, its easy to forget that the CS espouses many of the things we have grown to detest in modern society -- xenophobia, totalitarianism, overt racism, and genocide."
This is in the Authors Notes section. He then goes on to say that the CS is betraying its claims to heroism by using its justified fears to attack those who are not threatening. He explicitly goes on to say "...which makes the Coalition's aggression all the more questionable, its heroics all the more hollow"

[eliakon]

When the CS takes over territory and proclaims that it is part of the CS, then yes they do have an obligation to the people there.
Claiming that they do not have to accept or protect the humans in their own territory is to justify their explicit practice of conquest.
They take over a territory, over throw its government and then say 'we will take all your resources, we will destroy those who were protecting you before.....but we will not take you." Yeah, that is evil.

[Killer Cyborg]

Iron Heart Armamnets (New Kenora) was invaded and conqured. 9% of the population was executed out of hand (mostly dee-bees)

Hey, they were almost literally decimated!

Free Quebec expressed a desire to leave the CS. (remember officially the CS is a coalition, it is not a central government in Chi-Town....or it wasn't). Prosek declared them traitors and attacked first. Because they dared to do what they had the legal right to....but hurt his dreams of power.

Did they have the legal right?

SoT 1 pg 7 "And we are not talking the normal casualties of war, the Coalition Army has mad it clear in both words and deeds that this is a ware of genocide (emphasis in the text). There will be few, if any prisoners taken or people allowed to live. All practitioners of magic and nonhumans, their supporters, sympathizers and defenders shall be exterminated!"
That sort of doesn't leave any ambiguity about the CS goals or plans in Tolkeen.

Sot 2 pg 15 "This book might come a sa bit of a shock to die-hard Coalition fans, because it will not (emphasis theirs) paint a very pretty picture of our boys in black. In fact for the most part, Coalition Overkill is all about how the Coalition is the bad guy, the aggressor, the oppressor. After all, is this really so hard to believe? Sometimes, folks lose sight of this, perhaps because the Coalition employs such a dazzling array of technology tat from a playing standpoint, its easy to forget that the CS espouses many of the things we have grown to detest in modern society -- xenophobia, totalitarianism, overt racism, and genocide."

This is in the Authors Notes section. He then goes on to say that the CS is betraying its claims to heroism by using its justified fears to attack those who are not threatening. He explicitly goes on to say "...which makes the Coalition's aggression all the more questionable, its heroics all the more hollow"

Good citations.

[Jerell]

SoT may not paint the CS in a good light, but War is War. Once battle is joined both sides do what they must or feel is right, from their point of view (i.e. Sorcerer's Revenge).

However, history is history, how they move forward may change. If I may be allowed to use history as an example, the US Army, that once subdued the American West evolves to be the Army that liberates France in WW2. Fast forward, that same institution liberates Kuwait then a decade later invades Iraq (on questionable grounds). Things can change over time, but there is certainly room in the CS forces for heroic people and actions. While the CS is a product of it's environment, I think it could be a force for good or evil. A lot depending on your point of view. It's not totally bad, it's definitely not totally good (reading is fundamental!), it's more grey. It can lean toward light or dark grey. I'd like to see the CS without Karl Prosec running it for a start. There's a lot of things I don't like about the coalition, that doesn't mean they can never be heroic. Heroes of Humanity certainly makes it seem like they can lean towards the heroic end of the spectrum.

In other words, units of the CS, soldiers of the CS are capable of heroic action, even if the CS itself is not a good guy. The environment that spawned the CS needs to be taken into account as well. Time, place, people, total situation. I feel this question needs to be asked, 'what does it take for humanity to survive, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth?' It's highly debatable.

[Killer Cyborg]

units of the CS, soldiers of the CS are capable of heroic action, even if the CS itself is not a good guy. The environment that spawned the CS needs to be taken into account as well. Time, place, people, total situation. I feel this question needs to be asked, 'what does it take for humanity to survive, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth?' It's highly debatable.

Agreed.
A lot of the debate comes from how one defines "humanity," and a lot comes from how large of a threat magic is perceived to be.

[Jerell]

Well... we could ask the Palladium Fantasy Dwarves about the magic?

[eliakon]

SoT may not paint the CS in a good light, but War is War. Once battle is joined both sides do what they must or feel is right, from their point of view (i.e. Sorcerer's Revenge).

However when the CS enters the battle with the intention of total extermination from the outset then the claim rings hollow. They are not reacting to situations but causing them deliberately.

However, history is history, how they move forward may change. If I may be allowed to use history as an example, the US Army, that once subdued the American West evolves to be the Army that liberates France in WW2. Fast forward, that same institution liberates Kuwait then a decade later invades Iraq (on questionable grounds). Things can change over time, but there is certainly room in the CS forces for heroic people and actions.

And modern Germany is a great country. That does not mean that the Nazis were not evil.

While the CS is a product of it's environment, I think it could be a force for good or evil. A lot depending on your point of view. It's not totally bad, it's definitely not totally good (reading is fundamental!), it's more grey.

No its not in any way grey. It is pretty much the dictionary definition of evil. They are only 'good' if you are exactly like them, and subservient to their needs. Genocidal Dictatorial regimes are pretty hard to call 'good'

I'd like to see the CS without Karl Prosec running it for a start. There's a lot of things I don't like about the coalition, that doesn't mean they can never be heroic. Heroes of Humanity certainly makes it seem like they can lean towards the heroic end of the spectrum.

Yes if we totally remake them then sure they could be good....
As for what HoH will do.....I will wait till the actull book is out and not the sample bits from the sneak peek.

In other words, units of the CS, soldiers of the CS are capable of heroic action, even if the CS itself is not a good guy.

A unit of Splugorth minions is capable of heroic action as well....that doesn't mean that you could mistake the Splugorth for good guys.

The environment that spawned the CS needs to be taken into account as well. Time, place, people, total situation. I feel this question needs to be asked, 'what does it take for humanity to survive, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth?' It's highly debatable.

Since we see a LOT of examples of humanity surviving, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth that are not evil genocidal empires then I think we can pretty safely rule out the need to be an evil empire to survive.
ESPECIALLY since the CS is recent. They have nothing what so ever to do with the survival of humanity through the dark age.

[eliakon]

Well... we could ask the Palladium Fantasy Dwarves about the magic?

Sure lets do that.
I note that the Dwarves have not been going around murdering every magic user they find....
Even at the height of the Purification they still made discrimination between good magic and bad magic.

[Jerell]

I note that the Dwarves have not been going around murdering every magic user they find....

Noted. Also note, that they were fine with eternally enslaving and binding creatures, including magic user's souls into rune weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

I note that the Dwarves have not been going around murdering every magic user they find....

Noted. Also note, that they were fine with eternally enslaving and binding creatures, including magic user's souls into rune weapons.

Didn't they lose?

[Jerell]

Didn't they lose?

Good point though.

No its not in any way grey. It is pretty much the dictionary definition of evil. They are only 'good' if you are exactly like them, and subservient to their needs. Genocidal Dictatorial regimes are pretty hard to call 'good'

Of course it's not good. That's doesn't mean 100% bad however. I'm not dealing in absolutes, the CS private fighting off Demons can be just as good or heroic as anyone else doing it. I do not consider his Commander and Chief to be anything near good. That doesn't mean CS forces are not capable of doing some good when the chance arises.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Slumph are in DeeDees of North America, where it says that the CS has killed hundreds of thousands of them

I looked them up. The "Disgusting and repugnant" slime covered slug men, you're talking about? Who are treated mostly like... giant slugs even in the description. Talking about their indifferent hermaphroditic breeding practices, and laying little Slumph's the size of a magic marker that are abandoned and burrow into the ground, feeding on things and then pop out, little slug things the size of a squirrel. And are little more than anthro slugs (Salt even does mega damage to them) and slinging slime around.

Yes it does say that the CS has killed thousands of them. Then at the tail end it says over the decades they've killed 'hundreds of thousands' of them. I chalk it up to an artifact. A editing mistake if nothing else. The entirety of the US isn't covered by giant anthropomorphic slug creatures sliming up the place. Like many many MANY times in Palladium books the left hand has very little knowledge of what the right hand is doing and there's been no indication anywhere (other than the one sentence in the slug creatures write up) Of a pandemic of giant walking slimy slugs invading the US to the tune of 'hundreds of thousands' of them, and then orginized wars of the CS going out with giant salt shakers and tormenting hundreds of thousands of the strange creatures in a genocidal effort to destroy all giant slugs.

Yeah it says that. In the very tail end of a weird write up. I can appreciate the 'weird'. I like weird things. I'm not personally going to want to play a giant slug, but I get it. Weird is cool. Still the sentence comes across like something that simply wasn't checked or edited, and slipped through.

There's even larger instances of this, and even more recently. I think one of the NG books has a page or so of 'life span' in NA in rifts earth that's hugely wrong. I say 'wrong' (and not 'updated') Due to the fact it'd already been covered, in depth, with explanations, in a previous book (Lone star) and the two are radically different. The stuff in lone Star explained and consistant with one another, and the stuff in one of the NG books seemingly (and clearly) made up, after the fact, with out knowing the first entry existed. (Don't get me wrong. Love the NG books, but that page was clearly just made up on the fly and the author didn't know of the previous numbers and explanations given.)) Noone in the palladium offices caught it, and that's pretty dramatic.

Iron Heart Armamnets (New Kenora) was invaded and conqured. 9% of the population was executed out of hand (mostly dee-bees)

The CS conquered an arms manufacturer? ...... ok? What's your point? It's not the CS state of Iron Heart, and... if Dbees were involved in making Mega damage weapons, I'm unsure how this is some how surprising or out of hand? They irradiated the Naurani out of North America. (Though to be honest it sounds alot more impressive than it really was)

Free Quebec expressed a desire to leave the CS.

Yes. While being -worse- human surprimisist than the CS is.

(remember officially the CS is a coalition, it is not a central government in Chi-Town....or it wasn't).

You're focusing on terminology, (In a society with a high illiteracy rate by canon) Yes it's called the Coalition States, but Chi Town DOES call the shots. Just like the 'United states" are made up of 50 states, but we're ruled by the federal government out of DC. You could be a member of Ironheart or the state of Chi town but they're all members of the CS and ruled by the government.

Prosek declared them traitors and attacked first. Because they dared to do what they had the legal right to....but hurt his dreams of power.

If I remember correctly FQ made off with about half of the CS navy. Which would put the CS in full right to retaliate and strike against them. They declared secession. (The legality of it is highly debatable. We don't know the laws of the CS but 'Thanks for the naval ships and all the Mega damage military equipment. er.... we quit. Bugger off" is unlikely to be 'Legal" in the eyes of the CS).

The "war" with FQ never really got going. At best there were a few naval battles and some border skirmishes. Neither side's hearts were really in it. Then the stuff with tolkeen started up and the CS put it's focus there. Then the stuff with the demons trying to team up with FQ against the CS happened and the FQ Troops told um to get stuffed, they might not agree with the CS but they weren't teaming up with fragging demons and started getting shot up. The CS Came over the hill. Saw the FQ troops getting eaten up by demons to defend THEM and jumped in it. If you check, the CS gave full apology about the stuff with FQ, The Emp announced he was wrong and had made a mistake and declared FQ brothers in arms and allies to the CS.

So yes, there was a bit of a scrap with FQ but it was half hearted at best, over quickly with the CS taking the blame for it, apologizing and declaring FQ friends.

Again you're painting some things in the darkest light you can. And I'm not saying the CS are choir boys, but when you exaggerate points and try and inflame them by doing so, you hurt the point you're attempting to make.

SoT 1 pg 7 "And we are not talking the normal casualties of war, the Coalition Army has mad it clear in both words and deeds that this is a ware of genocide (emphasis in the text). There will be few, if any prisoners taken or people allowed to live. All practitioners of magic and nonhumans, their supporters, sympathizers and defenders shall be exterminated!"
That sort of doesn't leave any ambiguity about the CS goals or plans in Tolkeen.

Tolkeen at that point was 'evil'. *shrugs* Sorry. Not trying to be nit picky or anything but we've swung back around to "It's pretty much ok to kill evil things if you're a good guy and it doesn't make you 'Evil'. Sort of deal. When a Cyber knight kills a demon, he's not evil. He's killed an evil being. Noone bats an eye.

Tolkeen by the start of the CS/Tolkeen war was -evil-. Period. They may have started 'good' many years ago but their king went bat snit crazy and his people with him. They didn't commit some slow edge and slide into evil. They saw the CS gearing up and Tolkeen DOVE FACE FIRST Into Evil as hard as they possibly could. Not a little evil or kinda evil, but EVIL evil. Lets go break out demons inprisoned for being TOO Demony and dickish, and get their armies to come fight for us. More over lets out fit these horrible demons (Which were SEVERLY lessoned because they were drawn to be lumpy fish on stilts)with techno wizard stuff to help them fight. Lets recruit every bad supernatural creature we can along side those armies of DEMONS to fight the humans. Lets get the shadow dragons and evil evil generals to join in too. Their demons would even eat allied cyberknights on their own side if they tried to stop the demons from doing demony crap.

Yes, the CS was the initial aggressor, but by the time the war actually happened, the irony of it wa Tolkeen was ----exactly----- what the CS said it feared, when it was gearing up to go after them. Tolkeen became the evil that needed to be taken out.

Therefor the CS were attacking an evil nation of supernaturals and magic users. Tolkeen painted the CS as the Heroes when it went full out as evil as they could be. It's ironic it ended up like that, but that's how it DID end up. The CS went to war with an Evil nation of mages, magic users, supernatural beings and literal armies of demons.

Sot 2 pg 15 "This book might come a sa bit of a shock to die-hard Coalition fans, because it will not (emphasis theirs) paint a very pretty picture of our boys in black. In fact for the most part, Coalition Overkill is all about how the Coalition is the bad guy, the aggressor, the oppressor. After all, is this really so hard to believe? Sometimes, folks lose sight of this, perhaps because the Coalition employs such a dazzling array of technology tat from a playing standpoint, its easy to forget that the CS espouses many of the things we have grown to detest in modern society -- xenophobia, totalitarianism, overt racism, and genocide."
This is in the Authors Notes section. He then goes on to say that the CS is betraying its claims to heroism by using its justified fears to attack those who are not threatening. He explicitly goes on to say "...which makes the Coalition's aggression all the more questionable, its heroics all the more hollow"

Yes and if you read the other books in the series it see saws back and forth a number of times, depending on which book you're reading and what not.

In the end, it points out that Tolkeen had descended into evil in anticipation of the CS attack, becoming the exact thing the CS feared, so those fears were 100% justified because it's what tolkeen WAS.

You can call it hollow but when the time came, the CS engaged, Tolkeen was every bit the nation of evil mages that the CS always said they were. lol. They didn't have to be. They chose to become that. It would have been just as easy if not easier to flee. Instead they stood, chose to become evil and deal with armies of demons instead. That was their choice. All the other Magic nations they TRIED To get to kill the CS with them, turned them down. Told them straight up "Even if all the magic nations teamed up, we'd STILL Lose to the CS. You gotta run" Tolkeen effectivly grabbed thier crotches, called the other magic nations cowards and said they'd do it themselves, and.. dove further into evil to try it.

They failed. Just like ----everyone---- on the planet (Except tolkeen itself) Knew and said they would.

The CS ended up taking out the city of evil mages, their allies (Yep, you start shooting at me from the side of evil and you get lumped in. Sucks for you) and their demonic hordes.

It's hard to say that's 'evil' but when a group of cyberknights takes out a town of Demons, it's a shining image of the light.

[Pepsi Jedi]

When the CS takes over territory and proclaims that it is part of the CS, then yes they do have an obligation to the people there.
Claiming that they do not have to accept or protect the humans in their own territory is to justify their explicit practice of conquest.
They take over a territory, over throw its government and then say 'we will take all your resources, we will destroy those who were protecting you before.....but we will not take you." Yeah, that is evil.

But the CS DOES protect it's people. Pretty hard core too. ANd remember. the CS seldom has to 'Invade'. Most of their numbers come from places begging to be taken into the fold of the CS. petitioning and wanting to join.

[Pepsi Jedi]

SoT may not paint the CS in a good light, but War is War. Once battle is joined both sides do what they must or feel is right, from their point of view (i.e. Sorcerer's Revenge).

However when the CS enters the battle with the intention of total extermination from the outset then the claim rings hollow. They are not reacting to situations but causing them deliberately.

When you enter into a battle against an army of Demons, it's evil to intend to kill them all? .... Hurm.. I'm not sure everyone would agree with you.

However, history is history, how they move forward may change. If I may be allowed to use history as an example, the US Army, that once subdued the American West evolves to be the Army that liberates France in WW2. Fast forward, that same institution liberates Kuwait then a decade later invades Iraq (on questionable grounds). Things can change over time, but there is certainly room in the CS forces for heroic people and actions.

And modern Germany is a great country. That does not mean that the Nazis were not evil.

You're actually making the point for the other side there. By this logic the CS is a great country, but could have been evil when they did things in the past. I.E. They're a great country 'now' As they fight the minion wars, even if they were 'evil' in the past.

While the CS is a product of it's environment, I think it could be a force for good or evil. A lot depending on your point of view. It's not totally bad, it's definitely not totally good (reading is fundamental!), it's more grey.

No its not in any way grey.

Oh it very much is. If you're a human wanting to live a life in rifts earth, and not get eaten by any of 1000 kinds of monsters, have safty, prosperity, food, clothes, tv, etc, the CS is very good. Sure there's alot of rules, and it's a bit harsh at times but rules and harshness beats getting eaten by what you THOUGHT was your cat the day before.

It is pretty much the dictionary definition of evil.

Only from outside points of view. If you're a demon, the CS seems evil because it'll kill you with out question. If you're in a city state that say... .fields armies of 1000s of demons to fight the CS and the CS shoot you, they might seem evil.

From the CS point of view, Earth belongs to the humans. Any non humans are alien invaders, whom have preyed on humanity for 300 years. Killing an alien invader who's preyed on humanity for 300 years isn't 'evil' it's an act of a hero. KILL THOSE ALIEN INVADERS! PUSH THEM BACK AND OFF ___OUR___ Planet!

They are only 'good' if you are exactly like them, and subservient to their needs. Genocidal Dictatorial regimes are pretty hard to call 'good'

Not at all. What you paint as genocidal, they see as surviving against insurmountable odds against alien and supernatural invaders to their planet. And.... thing is. They're right. It might suck for the Dbees and stuff that didn't ask to be here, but earth was Human's first. The rest came later and.. yes. Invaded the planet and killed off billions of humans. As called to point before, it's very much like Kuwait being invaded. Fighting back didn't make the Kuwait people 'evil'.

I'd like to see the CS without Karl Prosec running it for a start. There's a lot of things I don't like about the coalition, that doesn't mean they can never be heroic. Heroes of Humanity certainly makes it seem like they can lean towards the heroic end of the spectrum.

Yes if we totally remake them then sure they could be good....

Not at all. You only need two or three policy shifts for the CS to be good. That and paint the armor red white and blue.
1) "Allow for DBee immigration. Make it like the NGR. Military service (or substantial public service) rewards citizenship. BOOM hugest hurtle done.
2) "Allow for SOME magic, under strict supervision and registration" This wouldn't be alien to anyone. We have to register our guns these days. Mages can throw mega damage from their fingers. Registration and overview of magic, could be allowed and regulated. Boom second hugest hurtle down.
3) (And i consider this conditional as it addresses what is a moronic aspect of canon) Educate the populace. The old 'keep them from reading so they don't read history books' is pretty useless. Noone's gong to frigging CARE about the past in Rifts earth. If there's a dragon that ate your cousin Ted, and his entire family out on the farm, the citizen of the CS that can read isn't going to suddenly throw down his CS Citizenship card and leave a megacity to go out and live in the wilds with out CS protection. The huge illiterate population in an advanced technological society is silly. When KS did it to start it was silly and over the pst 25 years it's just gotten more and more silly as time goes on. Still Not argueing how impossible it would be to have a society like that. As the provisional 3rd policy, *shrugs* teach your population to read.

Three policies that would change the CS (That and the paint job) and boom You're done. Shining good guys in the US.
More over these aren't totally alien concepts to the CS. The CS "Used" To have magic users. They still do in the form of the Vanguard. Instead of doing their thing in secret it'd be easy to pull them off. paint them in paterotic colors, and announce "Magic is scary, but after many years of research, some of our best minds have found a way... .a way, to USE this WEAPON against those that would use it against us! BEHOLD!! THE VANGUARD!!! THE CS MAGIC SQUAD! Who's purpose is to stop those that would use -magic- against our people. Fighting fire with fire!!

BOOM one announcement by the Emp. The nation rallys and backs up the Vanguard. People swell to recruiting stations and the numbers of the vanguard grow.

The Dbee thing? Well. the NGR does it. Sure they're treated as second class citizens but it's still possible. the CS deals with the NGR and sees this. They deal with Northern Gun who is perfectly happy to deal with DBees, even if they put on a show for the CS watchers. More over the Disavowed shows us that the Emp's son, is more than willing to use magic users and Dbees if he sees the need.

So what would it take for the CS to drop the 'evil' look?

Emp Dies. Son takes over. Makes ONLY THREE Policy Changes.

Boom. Done.

As for what HoH will do.....I will wait till the actull book is out and not the sample bits from the sneak peek.

In other words, units of the CS, soldiers of the CS are capable of heroic action, even if the CS itself is not a good guy.

A unit of Splugorth minions is capable of heroic action as well....that doesn't mean that you could mistake the Splugorth for good guys.

Well one are a group of humans, free to be good or bad by choice, fighting for the survival of humanity on a planet beset by 1000s of types of monsters trying to kill them.
The other is a group of aliens, working for evil supernatural intelligence, here to acquire slaves or food stock to be sold at interdimensional market.

yes the Sploog unit could kill a band of demons, just like a CS squad could, but at the end of the day.....

The environment that spawned the CS needs to be taken into account as well. Time, place, people, total situation. I feel this question needs to be asked, 'what does it take for humanity to survive, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth?' It's highly debatable.

Since we see a LOT of examples of humanity surviving, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth that are not evil genocidal empires

Really? Do we? Do we see a LOT of examples with numbers anywhere close to the CS? Where? The NGR? They ship debees to their borders and kick them out. Doesn't sound quite soooo bad, untill you realize that once you're out side the NGR boarders you're in the territory of invading demons. That or let the Dbees be cannon fodder for 20 years to earn citizenship.

You see a lot of small human communities, but not nations. Not millions of humans. As pointed out previously if you added up all the other humans in North america together you wouldn't come close to the numbers in the CS.

Sure it's easy to have a town of 10 people that are frendly and not militant towards their neighbors (But don't bet on it) Gets alot harder when there's 50 of you, alot harder when there's 100. 500. 5000, 50,000, 500,000, 5,000,000, etc.

And again you're painting the cs as 'genocidal empire' is a paint job. It's bad PR. Does it sometimes fit? Sure, if you concider killing armies of demons and such 'genocide' and not 'a war to preserve humanity from genocidal demons intent on our destruction'.

then I think we can pretty safely rule out the need to be an evil empire to survive.

Please tell us these huge empries of humanity living in peace on rifts earth?

ESPECIALLY since the CS is recent. They have nothing what so ever to do with the survival of humanity through the dark age.

Reread your Rifts history.

[eliakon]

Slumph are in DeeDees of North America, where it says that the CS has killed hundreds of thousands of them

I looked them up. The "Disgusting and repugnant" slime covered slug men, you're talking about? Who are treated mostly like... giant slugs even in the description. Talking about their indifferent hermaphroditic breeding practices, and laying little Slumph's the size of a magic marker that are abandoned and burrow into the ground, feeding on things and then pop out, little slug things the size of a squirrel. And are little more than anthro slugs (Salt even does mega damage to them) and slinging slime around.

Just because they look like slugs does not make them any less intelligent, or worthy of genocide

Yes it does say that the CS has killed thousands of them. Then at the tail end it says over the decades they've killed 'hundreds of thousands' of them. I chalk it up to an artifact. A editing mistake if nothing else.

So your answer to "The books say that the CS is evil and here is proof" is "I just disregard the books?"

The entirety of the US isn't covered by giant anthropomorphic slug creatures sliming up the place. Like many many MANY times in Palladium books the left hand has very little knowledge of what the right hand is doing and there's been no indication anywhere (other than the one sentence in the slug creatures write up) Of a pandemic of giant walking slimy slugs invading the US to the tune of 'hundreds of thousands' of them, and then orginized wars of the CS going out with giant salt shakers and tormenting hundreds of thousands of the strange creatures in a genocidal effort to destroy all giant slugs.

That isn't what they talk about though is it?
A few hundred thousand? That could be a couple cities worth. Certainly not an 'invasion' or 'covered' (After all the CS has tens to hundreds of millions of humans and they are 'sparsely poplulated'. And no they are not going out with salt shakers. They are shooting them.

Yeah it says that. In the very tail end of a weird write up. I can appreciate the 'weird'. I like weird things. I'm not personally going to want to play a giant slug, but I get it. Weird is cool. Still the sentence comes across like something that simply wasn't checked or edited, and slipped through.

Until such time as there is errata on this though it is canon.

There's even larger instances of this, and even more recently. I think one of the NG books has a page or so of 'life span' in NA in rifts earth that's hugely wrong. I say 'wrong' (and not 'updated') Due to the fact it'd already been covered, in depth, with explanations, in a previous book (Lone star) and the two are radically different. The stuff in lone Star explained and consistant with one another, and the stuff in one of the NG books seemingly (and clearly) made up, after the fact, with out knowing the first entry existed. (Don't get me wrong. Love the NG books, but that page was clearly just made up on the fly and the author didn't know of the previous numbers and explanations given.)) Noone in the palladium offices caught it, and that's pretty dramatic.

Iron Heart Armamnets (New Kenora) was invaded and conqured. 9% of the population was executed out of hand (mostly dee-bees)

The CS conquered an arms manufacturer? ...... ok? What's your point? It's not the CS state of Iron Heart, and... if Dbees were involved in making Mega damage weapons, I'm unsure how this is some how surprising or out of hand? They irradiated the Naurani out of North America. (Though to be honest it sounds alot more impressive than it really was)

They conqured New Kenora. That is not Iron Heart Arms, that was the sovering state of New Kenora. They invaded that nation, executed the populations that they didn't like (it doesn't say just those involved in weapons making, it says 9% of the population.)
This is not some company they didn't like, it was just like Tolkeen. "I don't like this country, I am going to invade it, wipe it out and kill everyone that I disagree with."

Free Quebec expressed a desire to leave the CS.

Yes. While being -worse- human surprimisist than the CS is.

That has no bearing on the issue though does it?
FQ tried to defy Emperor Prosek, for that the sentence was death.

(remember officially the CS is a coalition, it is not a central government in Chi-Town....or it wasn't).

You're focusing on terminology, (In a society with a high illiteracy rate by canon) Yes it's called the Coalition States, but Chi Town DOES call the shots. Just like the 'United states" are made up of 50 states, but we're ruled by the federal government out of DC. You could be a member of Ironheart or the state of Chi town but they're all members of the CS and ruled by the government.

Yes, I am rather focusing on terminology.....because we don't have anything else to go by.

Prosek declared them traitors and attacked first. Because they dared to do what they had the legal right to....but hurt his dreams of power.

If I remember correctly FQ made off with about half of the CS navy. Which would put the CS in full right to retaliate and strike against them. They declared secession. (The legality of it is highly debatable. We don't know the laws of the CS but 'Thanks for the naval ships and all the Mega damage military equipment. er.... we quit. Bugger off" is unlikely to be 'Legal" in the eyes of the CS).

FQ succeeded AFFTER the CS declared pre-emptive war on them. Not before. Taking the navy after you have been attacked is fairly justified....

The "war" with FQ never really got going. At best there were a few naval battles and some border skirmishes. Neither side's hearts were really in it. Then the stuff with tolkeen started up and the CS put it's focus there. Then the stuff with the demons trying to team up with FQ against the CS happened and the FQ Troops told um to get stuffed, they might not agree with the CS but they weren't teaming up with fragging demons and started getting shot up. The CS Came over the hill. Saw the FQ troops getting eaten up by demons to defend THEM and jumped in it. If you check, the CS gave full apology about the stuff with FQ, The Emp announced he was wrong and had made a mistake and declared FQ brothers in arms and allies to the CS.

Attacks, an invasion, border battles, thousands dead....
Yeah that sounds like a war to me.

So yes, there was a bit of a scrap with FQ but it was half hearted at best, over quickly with the CS taking the blame for it, apologizing and declaring FQ friends.

Yeah the CS got beaten, withdrew and said 'oops my bad'
That doesn't negate that what they did.

Again you're painting some things in the darkest light you can. And I'm not saying the CS are choir boys, but when you exaggerate points and try and inflame them by doing so, you hurt the point you're attempting to make.

I am only using the paint the CS gives me
When they are genocidal invaders who conqur other nations and put percetanges of the population to the sword what else am I supposed to say?

SoT 1 pg 7 "And we are not talking the normal casualties of war, the Coalition Army has mad it clear in both words and deeds that this is a ware of genocide (emphasis in the text). There will be few, if any prisoners taken or people allowed to live. All practitioners of magic and nonhumans, their supporters, sympathizers and defenders shall be exterminated!"
That sort of doesn't leave any ambiguity about the CS goals or plans in Tolkeen.

Tolkeen at that point was 'evil'. *shrugs* Sorry. Not trying to be nit picky or anything but we've swung back around to "It's pretty much ok to kill evil things if you're a good guy and it doesn't make you 'Evil'. Sort of deal. When a Cyber knight kills a demon, he's not evil. He's killed an evil being. Noone bats an eye.

Tolkeen by the start of the CS/Tolkeen war was -evil-. Period. They may have started 'good' many years ago but their king went bat snit crazy and his people with him. They didn't commit some slow edge and slide into evil. They saw the CS gearing up and Tolkeen DOVE FACE FIRST Into Evil as hard as they possibly could. Not a little evil or kinda evil, but EVIL evil. Lets go break out demons inprisoned for being TOO Demony and dickish, and get their armies to come fight for us. More over lets out fit these horrible demons (Which were SEVERLY lessoned because they were drawn to be lumpy fish on stilts)with techno wizard stuff to help them fight. Lets recruit every bad supernatural creature we can along side those armies of DEMONS to fight the humans. Lets get the shadow dragons and evil evil generals to join in too. Their demons would even eat allied cyberknights on their own side if they tried to stop the demons from doing demony crap.

Yeah gee I wonder why they were desperately looking for any weapon that might save them?
Hmmmm? Possibly the genocidal maniacs south of them that had sworn to kill every last man, woman and child in the entire nation?
As the quote makes QUITE clear the CS chose a helpless nation that had never threatened them, and swore to kill every last one of them....And then proceded to do so.
That Tolkeen went into darkness trying to resist themselves was horrible and made it a double tragedy....
But this was not some 'mercy killing of evil' The CS MADE that evil, by its deliberate actions.

Yes, the CS was the initial aggressor, but by the time the war actually happened, the irony of it wa Tolkeen was ----exactly----- what the CS said it feared, when it was gearing up to go after them. Tolkeen became the evil that needed to be taken out.

The nation was not evil until it was attacked.
The books are QUITE clear on this. Until the CS declaired that they were going to wipe them off the face of the planet and kill them ALL they were an innocent, harmless nation. Their 'crime' was that they did not murder all their B-Bees, that they educated their children, that they dared to dream on not being Proseks slaves.

Therefor the CS were attacking an evil nation of supernaturals and magic users. Tolkeen painted the CS as the Heroes when it went full out as evil as they could be. It's ironic it ended up like that, but that's how it DID end up. The CS went to war with an Evil nation of mages, magic users, supernatural beings and literal armies of demons.

It is a bit ironic yes....that the CS unjustified fears and evil turns their victims into people willing to try anything to not be murdered.
Which ironically makes the CS even MORE evil. If the CS had never sworn to wipe out Tolkeen, if they had nto started it.....then Tolkeen would never have gotten those demons......The CS conjured evil where their was none.....
The entire blood, from both sides is on Prosek hands.

Sot 2 pg 15 "This book might come a sa bit of a shock to die-hard Coalition fans, because it will not (emphasis theirs) paint a very pretty picture of our boys in black. In fact for the most part, Coalition Overkill is all about how the Coalition is the bad guy, the aggressor, the oppressor. After all, is this really so hard to believe? Sometimes, folks lose sight of this, perhaps because the Coalition employs such a dazzling array of technology tat from a playing standpoint, its easy to forget that the CS espouses many of the things we have grown to detest in modern society -- xenophobia, totalitarianism, overt racism, and genocide."
This is in the Authors Notes section. He then goes on to say that the CS is betraying its claims to heroism by using its justified fears to attack those who are not threatening. He explicitly goes on to say "...which makes the Coalition's aggression all the more questionable, its heroics all the more hollow"

Yes and if you read the other books in the series it see saws back and forth a number of times, depending on which book you're reading and what not.

There is only one quote about the CS before the war kicks off.
And I was unable to find ANYTHING saying that they were ever the heroes.

In the end, it points out that Tolkeen had descended into evil in anticipation of the CS attack, becoming the exact thing the CS feared, so those fears were 100% justified because it's what tolkeen WAS.

No they were NOT justified.
The 'fears' were the "your evil demon mages we must murder you all"
That was said BEFORE Tolkeen turned evil. Unless you are now credititng the CS with precognition and the moral ability to kill people because of crimes they MIGHT commit.

You can call it hollow but when the time came, the CS engaged, Tolkeen was every bit the nation of evil mages that the CS always said they were. lol. They didn't have to be. They chose to become that. It would have been just as easy if not easier to flee. Instead they stood, chose to become evil and deal with armies of demons instead. That was their choice. All the other Magic nations they TRIED To get to kill the CS with them, turned them down. Told them straight up "Even if all the magic nations teamed up, we'd STILL Lose to the CS. You gotta run" Tolkeen effectivly grabbed thier crotches, called the other magic nations cowards and said they'd do it themselves, and.. dove further into evil to try it.

I don't say it was Hollow the author says it was hollow
And no, I do not consider "I am sorry, evil genocidal maniacs want your home, you have to leave because fighting back would be wrong."

They failed. Just like ----everyone---- on the planet (Except tolkeen itself) Knew and said they would.

The CS ended up taking out the city of evil mages, their allies (Yep, you start shooting at me from the side of evil and you get lumped in. Sucks for you) and their demonic hordes.

And hundreds of thousands of civilians. That is not a war, that is genocide. Pure Evil.

It's hard to say that's 'evil' but when a group of cyberknights takes out a town of Demons, it's a shining image of the light.

This though is nothing of the kind.
This is an army marching in and murdering the entire population of cities, Every last child and baby put to death. This is a nation swearing to murder an entire people, and then carrying through on their threat. This is, pure and simple, the CS revealing that they are a true evil on par with the Vampires and Splugorth. The only light in here was the Juicers and Cyberknights evacuating civlians.
The CS was pure demon level evil fighting a foe whom they had driven through desperation and fear into foolish evil

[eliakon]

SoT may not paint the CS in a good light, but War is War. Once battle is joined both sides do what they must or feel is right, from their point of view (i.e. Sorcerer's Revenge).

However when the CS enters the battle with the intention of total extermination from the outset then the claim rings hollow. They are not reacting to situations but causing them deliberately.

When you enter into a battle against an army of Demons, it's evil to intend to kill them all? .... Hurm.. I'm not sure everyone would agree with you.

Unless you are calling the civilians, and their children Demons......
The CS said that they wanted to kill EVERYONE.

However, history is history, how they move forward may change. If I may be allowed to use history as an example, the US Army, that once subdued the American West evolves to be the Army that liberates France in WW2. Fast forward, that same institution liberates Kuwait then a decade later invades Iraq (on questionable grounds). Things can change over time, but there is certainly room in the CS forces for heroic people and actions.

And modern Germany is a great country. That does not mean that the Nazis were not evil.

You're actually making the point for the other side there. By this logic the CS is a great country, but could have been evil when they did things in the past. I.E. They're a great country 'now' As they fight the minion wars, even if they were 'evil' in the past.

No the CS is not great now. They have done nothing to change. Now if you have a citation someplace that they have had a change of heart, abandoned their desires for genocide and.....oh wait, even in the previews of the next too books we see yet more of their genocidal ways......nope, they are still Nazi evil.

While the CS is a product of it's environment, I think it could be a force for good or evil. A lot depending on your point of view. It's not totally bad, it's definitely not totally good (reading is fundamental!), it's more grey.

No its not in any way grey.

Oh it very much is. If you're a human wanting to live a life in rifts earth, and not get eaten by any of 1000 kinds of monsters, have safty, prosperity, food, clothes, tv, etc, the CS is very good. Sure there's alot of rules, and it's a bit harsh at times but rules and harshness beats getting eaten by what you THOUGHT was your cat the day before.

The CS makes monsters (look at tolkeen)
since EVERY OTHER HUMAN NATION ON THE PLANET gets by with out genocide.....nope this is not self defense. Sorry you cant claim its 'necisary' when no one else, on the planet has to do it. It is a choice. They are evil because they WANT to be evil. That is the opposite of grey.

It is pretty much the dictionary definition of evil.

Only from outside points of view. If you're a demon, the CS seems evil because it'll kill you with out question. If you're in a city state that say... .fields armies of 1000s of demons to fight the CS and the CS shoot you, they might seem evil.

Murder because you choose to murder is evil. No one else has to do it to survive its a CHOICE of the CS.

From the CS point of view, Earth belongs to the humans. Any non humans are alien invaders, whom have preyed on humanity for 300 years. Killing an alien invader who's preyed on humanity for 300 years isn't 'evil' it's an act of a hero. KILL THOSE ALIEN INVADERS! PUSH THEM BACK AND OFF ___OUR___ Planet!

Genocide is evil. Period. We already had this discussion that the alignment system doesn't make for such fine distictions......let alone the fact that its a pure lie. The CS is anti-mage as well. And their leaders know, for a fact, that magic existed before.

They are only 'good' if you are exactly like them, and subservient to their needs. Genocidal Dictatorial regimes are pretty hard to call 'good'

Not at all. What you paint as genocidal, they see as surviving against insurmountable odds against alien and supernatural invaders to their planet. And.... thing is. They're right. It might suck for the Dbees and stuff that didn't ask to be here, but earth was Human's first. The rest came later and.. yes. Invaded the planet and killed off billions of humans. As called to point before, it's very much like Kuwait being invaded. Fighting back didn't make the Kuwait people 'evil'.

They are not doing anything that is needed for survival. It is a wilful choice to CHOOSE to be evil and genocidal. Not one of the other human nations on Rifts Earth does this. Not ONE. Even ones with less resources. This means that no, its not survival its a choice.

I'd like to see the CS without Karl Prosec running it for a start. There's a lot of things I don't like about the coalition, that doesn't mean they can never be heroic. Heroes of Humanity certainly makes it seem like they can lean towards the heroic end of the spectrum.

Yes if we totally remake them then sure they could be good....

Not at all. You only need two or three policy shifts for the CS to be good. That and paint the armor red white and blue.
1) "Allow for DBee immigration. Make it like the NGR. Military service (or substantial public service) rewards citizenship. BOOM hugest hurtle done.
2) "Allow for SOME magic, under strict supervision and registration" This wouldn't be alien to anyone. We have to register our guns these days. Mages can throw mega damage from their fingers. Registration and overview of magic, could be allowed and regulated. Boom second hugest hurtle down.
3) (And i consider this conditional as it addresses what is a moronic aspect of canon) Educate the populace. The old 'keep them from reading so they don't read history books' is pretty useless. Noone's gong to frigging CARE about the past in Rifts earth. If there's a dragon that ate your cousin Ted, and his entire family out on the farm, the citizen of the CS that can read isn't going to suddenly throw down his CS Citizenship card and leave a megacity to go out and live in the wilds with out CS protection. The huge illiterate population in an advanced technological society is silly. When KS did it to start it was silly and over the pst 25 years it's just gotten more and more silly as time goes on. Still Not argueing how impossible it would be to have a society like that. As the provisional 3rd policy, *shrugs* teach your population to read.

Three policies that would change the CS (That and the paint job) and boom You're done. Shining good guys in the US.
More over these aren't totally alien concepts to the CS. The CS "Used" To have magic users. They still do in the form of the Vanguard. Instead of doing their thing in secret it'd be easy to pull them off. paint them in paterotic colors, and announce "Magic is scary, but after many years of research, some of our best minds have found a way... .a way, to USE this WEAPON against those that would use it against us! BEHOLD!! THE VANGUARD!!! THE CS MAGIC SQUAD! Who's purpose is to stop those that would use -magic- against our people. Fighting fire with fire!!

BOOM one announcement by the Emp. The nation rallys and backs up the Vanguard. People swell to recruiting stations and the numbers of the vanguard grow.

The Dbee thing? Well. the NGR does it. Sure they're treated as second class citizens but it's still possible. the CS deals with the NGR and sees this. They deal with Northern Gun who is perfectly happy to deal with DBees, even if they put on a show for the CS watchers. More over the Disavowed shows us that the Emp's son, is more than willing to use magic users and Dbees if he sees the need.

So what would it take for the CS to drop the 'evil' look?

Emp Dies. Son takes over. Makes ONLY THREE Policy Changes.

Boom. Done.

SO lets see.....we reverse every single policy that descripes the CS as it is now (genocidal, anti-Dee-Bee, Anti-Magic, Anti-Educations....)
Yeah that's pretty much the definition of 'totally remake them'. Thank you, you have made my point.

As for what HoH will do.....I will wait till the actull book is out and not the sample bits from the sneak peek.

In other words, units of the CS, soldiers of the CS are capable of heroic action, even if the CS itself is not a good guy.

A unit of Splugorth minions is capable of heroic action as well....that doesn't mean that you could mistake the Splugorth for good guys.

Well one are a group of humans, free to be good or bad by choice, fighting for the survival of humanity on a planet beset by 1000s of types of monsters trying to kill them.
The other is a group of aliens, working for evil supernatural intelligence, here to acquire slaves or food stock to be sold at interdimensional market.
yes the Sploog unit could kill a band of demons, just like a CS squad could, but at the end of the day.....

Again. The CS is not 'fighting for the survival of humanity' any more than the Nazis were fighting for the survival of True Man.
They are fighting for the enslavement of the world to the Prosek Ambition.

The environment that spawned the CS needs to be taken into account as well. Time, place, people, total situation. I feel this question needs to be asked, 'what does it take for humanity to survive, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth?' It's highly debatable.

Since we see a LOT of examples of humanity surviving, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth that are not evil genocidal empires

Really? Do we? Do we see a LOT of examples with numbers anywhere close to the CS? Where? The NGR? They ship debees to their borders and kick them out. Doesn't sound quite soooo bad, untill you realize that once you're out side the NGR boarders you're in the territory of invading demons. That or let the Dbees be cannon fodder for 20 years to earn citizenship.

You see a lot of small human communities, but not nations. Not millions of humans. As pointed out previously if you added up all the other humans in North america together you wouldn't come close to the numbers in the CS.

Ummmm lets look
Arnzo, Lazlo, Tolkeen, New Kenonia, Kingsdale, New German Republic, Colombia, Silver River Republics, Itcho, The Republic of Japan, The Japanese Empire, the Geofront, The Warcamps, Tarnow, Krackow, New Camelot, Bath.....
I could go on and on. There are literally HUNDREDS of plaes that don't do this. And the most damning thing is that each of the states that makes up the CS didn't do it before they became the CS. Chi Town allowed mages for instance. And it is mentioned that the Genocide policies are new to the Proseks.

Sure it's easy to have a town of 10 people that are frendly and not militant towards their neighbors (But don't bet on it) Gets alot harder when there's 50 of you, alot harder when there's 100. 500. 5000, 50,000, 500,000, 5,000,000, etc.

It was easy enough for Chi Town, Free Quebec, Iron Heart et all to do it before they went all meglo...

And again you're painting the cs as 'genocidal empire' is a paint job. It's bad PR. Does it sometimes fit? Sure, if you concider killing armies of demons and such 'genocide' and not 'a war to preserve humanity from genocidal demons intent on our destruction'.

Its not a paint job. Its what they self proclaim as. And no, its not a 'war to preserve humanity from genocidal demons intent on our destruction.' That is proveably false as no one else has to do it.

then I think we can pretty safely rule out the need to be an evil empire to survive.

Please tell us these huge empries of humanity living in peace on rifts earth?

The other places are not involved in genocide. This sort of proves that genocide is not needed to survive.

ESPECIALLY since the CS is recent. They have nothing what so ever to do with the survival of humanity through the dark age.

Reread your Rifts history.

The nation we call the CS is recent. It is a conglomeration of multiple other survivor states true. But the CS is recent.
Chi Town helped people survive.....but so did Free Quebec. Even Tolkeen is said to have been one of those 'survivor states' if I recall correctly.

The CS can not claim the mantle of "ohhh with out us humans would have died"....because they are not the reason humans survived.

[Alrik Vas]

So some of us identify the CS government as evil. Some of us identify the entire population of the CS as evil.

While some others of us think the CS, while their leaders are wicked, the organization does what it needs to in order to survive.

Not one of us would definitively call them a good guy (no one has yet, anyway)

The split seems to be in how bad they are, and how bad that makes them in the grand scheme. Some say its evil no matter what, a sort of dichotomy between pure good and pure evil, which isn't relatable to humans with all their marbles that aren't living in a post apocalyptic world bent in using your soul to power an evil ritual that will summon the dark master, who will kill all humans.

The other side seems to see the world as mute grey, which is fine, but you miss a lot in the varying shades, like good and evil collide with survival and indulgence. Kind of like justice and revenge.

CS is bad. CS also does good things, but even corporations give to charity.

CS is a lying, cheating sunuvabish, but I'd rather a human behind me, even if it puts a demon in front of me.

Also, who saved humanity if it wasn't humans?

[flatline]

I think the CS is a (mostly) brilliant element of the setting.

On the one hand, you have monsters that will happily eat humans for breakfast. On the other hand, you have humans who collectively have become monsters (even if the individuals are not).

Somewhere in between is a wonderfully dramatic place for players to make their way.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

Indeed.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the CS is a (mostly) brilliant element of the setting.

On the one hand, you have monsters that will happily eat humans for breakfast. On the other hand, you have humans who collectively have become monsters (even if the individuals are not).

Somewhere in between is a wonderfully dramatic place for players to make their way.

--flatline

Agreed.

[Nightmask]

So some of us identify the CS government as evil. Some of us identify the entire population of the CS as evil.

While some others of us think the CS, while their leaders are wicked, the organization does what it needs to in order to survive.

Not one of us would definitively call them a good guy (no one has yet, anyway)

The split seems to be in how bad they are, and how bad that makes them in the grand scheme. Some say its evil no matter what, a sort of dichotomy between pure good and pure evil, which isn't relatable to humans with all their marbles that aren't living in a post apocalyptic world bent in using your soul to power an evil ritual that will summon the dark master, who will kill all humans.

The other side seems to see the world as mute grey, which is fine, but you miss a lot in the varying shades, like good and evil collide with survival and indulgence. Kind of like justice and revenge.

CS is bad. CS also does good things, but even corporations give to charity.

CS is a lying, cheating sunuvabish, but I'd rather a human behind me, even if it puts a demon in front of me.

Also, who saved humanity if it wasn't humans?

Okay, why exactly do you think that you're somehow inherently better off with a human behind you? Particularly humans who're demonstrably evil? What exactly does the species of the evil being have to do with anything? I'd want someone good behind me whatever their species rather than blindly go 'well he's human that's all that matters'.

[Alrik Vas]

True, anyone can be good or evil, I'll take the guy who was trained to have my back. More often than not, that's a fellow soldier.

[cosmicfish]

So some of us identify the CS government as evil. Some of us identify the entire population of the CS as evil.

While some others of us think the CS, while their leaders are wicked, the organization does what it needs to in order to survive.

Not one of us would definitively call them a good guy (no one has yet, anyway)

The split seems to be in how bad they are, and how bad that makes them in the grand scheme. Some say its evil no matter what, a sort of dichotomy between pure good and pure evil, which isn't relatable to humans with all their marbles that aren't living in a post apocalyptic world bent in using your soul to power an evil ritual that will summon the dark master, who will kill all humans.

The other side seems to see the world as mute grey, which is fine, but you miss a lot in the varying shades, like good and evil collide with survival and indulgence. Kind of like justice and revenge.

CS is bad. CS also does good things, but even corporations give to charity.

CS is a lying, cheating sunuvabish, but I'd rather a human behind me, even if it puts a demon in front of me.

Also, who saved humanity if it wasn't humans?

Some interesting points. It should be reiterated that there are moral absolutes in Palladium, alignments do not necessarily indicate how someone views themselves or are viewed by others, but they do indicate where they fall on the good/evil spectrum. The CS leadership appears to be overwhelmingly evil, the military at the least is largely evil or anarchist, but the populace is majority good and selfish but kept purposefully ignorant so that they do not know that they are supporting evil.

So in shading them grey, it is worthwhile noting two factors: purity, and activity.

As stated above, a good portion of the CS has a good or selfish alignment, and that sets the CS as better than those states (like Atlantis) and those races (like demons) that are more thoroughly aligned with evil. However, even this has to take into account that the political and military power of the CS is predominantly, perhaps entirely controlled by not just anarchist but outright evil members of that society. The propaganda and ignorance bring the good members of the CS to evil just as surely as any mind control the CS claims to fear, it just takes longer to work!

As to activity, the CS seems to do more evil on North America than anyone else. They are not the most purely evil, but the more purely evil groups out there are either smaller in scale (like ARCHIE 3) or less active on the continent (like Splynncryth). Part of this might be due to the bias of the books, it could be argued that they offer a nonrepresentative sample of what is actually going on, but it is all we have to go on!

I also want to argue a recurring theme on here - "CS" and "humanity" are not in any way synonymous. When you talk about "humanity saving humans" you miss the point that it was a subset of humanity saving a subset of humanity in no small part by destroying another subset of humanity. The CS does not work to save humanity, it works to save that specific part of which it approves, and it is more than willing to kill or oppress or throw to the wolves those humans of whom it disapproves.

[cosmicfish]

True, anyone can be good or evil, I'll take the guy who was trained to have my back. More often than not, that's a fellow soldier.

Except that in this case, odds are pretty good that the "fellow soldier" was actually trained to watch you for any deviation from CS norms and then either refuse to "have your back" or even kill you as soon as you are the biggest threat to the CS in the room. Seriously, the CS might work with fellow humans, but if you show any of a dozen different traits (many involuntary!) the fact that you are human and good will not matter!

[Pepsi Jedi]

Getting long so I'll put it in a spoiler tag for those that want to read it. If not, it's easily skipped.

Spoiler:

Slumph are in DeeDees of North America, where it says that the CS has killed hundreds of thousands of them

I looked them up. The "Disgusting and repugnant" slime covered slug men, you're talking about? Who are treated mostly like... giant slugs even in the description. Talking about their indifferent hermaphroditic breeding practices, and laying little Slumph's the size of a magic marker that are abandoned and burrow into the ground, feeding on things and then pop out, little slug things the size of a squirrel. And are little more than anthro slugs (Salt even does mega damage to them) and slinging slime around.

Just because they look like slugs does not make them any less intelligent, or worthy of genocide.

No, it's alot more than 'looks like slugs', but to the point. 'They're alien invaders, on our planet, after a great cataclysm, and 300 years of predation on humankind by 1000s of different kinds of monsters, and these things look monsterous, leads one to not stop and try and have a philosophical conversation with the giant mega damage slug monster and instead treat it like a giant megadamage slug monster and shoot it. (Or pour salt on it). It's not kind. It 'is' lumping the poor hidious disgusting creature in with more evil sorts, but this hasd been pointed out previously in the thread. After humanity's almost genocide at the hands of the cataclysm, and the thousands of different kinds of alien monsters that came through the rifts. expecting them to pause and give every alien they come across, the benifit of the doubt, is ... well 'silly' is the nicest word one could apply to that.

Yes it does say that the CS has killed thousands of them. Then at the tail end it says over the decades they've killed 'hundreds of thousands' of them. I chalk it up to an artifact. A editing mistake if nothing else.

So your answer to "The books say that the CS is evil and here is proof" is "I just disregard the books?"

I'm saying that the numbers don't make sense, as I point out just below here. I.E. that it was missed in editing. Not saying that it rules out the CS being evil. I'm saying that much like MANY Other mistakes caught by readers that aren't caught by Palladium's (laugh) Editing, that this is something that slipped through. Armies of 100,000s of giant megadamage slug men are not referenced ANYWHERE else in canon. A writer added an extra zero or two and it slipped by the laughable editing of palladium before it hit print. I don't doubt that the CS mows these things down. I do doubt that there's hundreds of thousands of slug men to be mowed down. lol .Look at the populations of Rifts earth, 100,000s of them? That's going to dwarf all but the most huge countries on the planet.

The entirety of the US isn't covered by giant anthropomorphic slug creatures sliming up the place. Like many many MANY times in Palladium books the left hand has very little knowledge of what the right hand is doing and there's been no indication anywhere (other than the one sentence in the slug creatures write up) Of a pandemic of giant walking slimy slugs invading the US to the tune of 'hundreds of thousands' of them, and then orginized wars of the CS going out with giant salt shakers and tormenting hundreds of thousands of the strange creatures in a genocidal effort to destroy all giant slugs.

That isn't what they talk about though is it?
A few hundred thousand? That could be a couple cities worth. Certainly not an 'invasion' or 'covered' (After all the CS has tens to hundreds of millions of humans and they are 'sparsely poplulated'. And no they are not going out with salt shakers. They are shooting them.

The salt shakers were a joke... as the write up says that sprinkleing salt on them does mega damage... the Dbee is a joke if you read it. lol But still the point remains. if you look at the populations of large cities in rifts earth, out side of the CS or the NGR, 100s of 1000s would dwarf most of the other settlements on the planet. Yes that would be a gigantic number of slugmen running around and being killed nad noone knew.

The Naurani that the CS targeted, that was such a huge thing... had 40 reps in north America. The campaign to get rid of them (and their allies).... 40 actual reps. Even if you multipled it by 100 you'd still only have 4000 dead in that purge. . Yet there has been some sort of secret slimy slug genocide to the tune of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of them being killed? lol

It's an editing error. I.E. it sounded cool to who ever wrote the joke entry for the slug man (Much like butter trolls) And kevin laughed and glanced at it and tossed it into the book, with out actually reading it close.

Yeah it says that. In the very tail end of a weird write up. I can appreciate the 'weird'. I like weird things. I'm not personally going to want to play a giant slug, but I get it. Weird is cool. Still the sentence comes across like something that simply wasn't checked or edited, and slipped through.

Until such time as there is errata on this though it is canon

So are all the other mistakes. There's a missle mistake in a number of books due to palladium's cut and paste that give it a range of millions of miles or hundreds of thousands of MD or something ( memory fails me at this exact moment but people will know what I'm talking about) There's two books (Lone Star and one of the NG books) that both discuss longevity. One is radically different from the other. both can't be true. Etc etc etc. You might be new to playing Palladium (I'm not sure) but their editing consists of 'I read the entry kev. looks cool!" type editing. It's not professional in that standard and is most assuredly not cross referenced with other information with in it's own universe. There's two entire books (SA and SAII) That have been partially disavowed by Palladium and if you look in the GMG it's stated that they're more or less something that was tossed to a buddy who ran wild with it, and to nerf the crazy damages and such in those books by a third or a quarter to bring them in line with the rest of rifts earth.

Mistates happen. The writers are human. Mistakes OFTEN HAPPEN in Rpgs. The mechanics can get complex and the worlds can get deep. That's ANY RPG, mistakes do happen. Mistakes happen in Palladium to... a better than average amount among RPGs. So in a medium 1) Written by humans so there's going to be mistakes, 2) In a medium that often has mistakes (Rpgs) and 3) Palladium RPGS which have more mistakes than your average RPG.... yes. I chalk up the concept of vast planes of giant mega damage slug men by the hundreds of thousands, falling to the lasers and salt packets of CS armies silly and a mistake that made it through editing.

What' you've found is one sentence in a joke entry (The giant mega damage slug men with slime armor and death via table salt... are a joke entry) that made it through editing. You're not wrong that it's in the book. It is. I just choose to look at it and see it for what it is.

There's even larger instances of this, and even more recently. I think one of the NG books has a page or so of 'life span' in NA in rifts earth that's hugely wrong. I say 'wrong' (and not 'updated') Due to the fact it'd already been covered, in depth, with explanations, in a previous book (Lone star) and the two are radically different. The stuff in lone Star explained and consistant with one another, and the stuff in one of the NG books seemingly (and clearly) made up, after the fact, with out knowing the first entry existed. (Don't get me wrong. Love the NG books, but that page was clearly just made up on the fly and the author didn't know of the previous numbers and explanations given.)) Noone in the palladium offices caught it, and that's pretty dramatic.

Iron Heart Armamnets (New Kenora) was invaded and conqured. 9% of the population was executed out of hand (mostly dee-bees)

The CS conquered an arms manufacturer? ...... ok? What's your point? It's not the CS state of Iron Heart, and... if Dbees were involved in making Mega damage weapons, I'm unsure how this is some how surprising or out of hand? They irradiated the Naurani out of North America. (Though to be honest it sounds alot more impressive than it really was)

They conqured New Kenora. That is not Iron Heart Arms, that was the sovering state of New Kenora. They invaded that nation, executed the populations that they didn't like (it doesn't say just those involved in weapons making, it says 9% of the population.)
This is not some company they didn't like, it was just like Tolkeen. "I don't like this country, I am going to invade it, wipe it out and kill everyone that I disagree with."

Ok, what book did this happen in? It's not raising a flag to me. As for 'ITS A NATION' They call a city with 5,000 people a nation in Rifts earth. I'd need to read on the specifics to see if it's some sort of ungodly tragedy that you're making it out to be, or if it was a town around an arms plant that they took over.

Free Quebec expressed a desire to leave the CS.

Yes. While being -worse- human surprimisist than the CS is.

That has no bearing on the issue though does it?

Yes, it does. If your contention is that the CS is evil, a "More evil" (By your arguements) Nation stealing a navy and mega damage armor and army, doing something has bearing. In that sort of situation is it evil to try and stop them?

FQ tried to defy Emperor Prosek, for that the sentence was death.

They stole half of the CS navy, and billions of credits worth of arms, armor, and equipment from the CS Army.

If Rhode Island tried to just pop up, lock down their borders using US Army tanks and stuff from their national guard... we're going to swat them down pretty hard for it. Heck if Texas did it, we'd swat them down for it. You're acting like it was a gingerly peaceful stroll with kisses blown and love letters mailed and what not.

FQ is not some sort of nation of good guys that couldn't stomach the CS Regime. They're -more- CS than the average CS... those Frenchies, don't even like Dogs, man! They don't allow dog boys! Whoa... that's some next level hate right there. They are even MORE Human supremacist than Chi-town. lol. And they stole a military (While secretly building up their own in defiance of CS law and restrictions).

AND THE SENTENCE WAS DEATH!!! Dun dun dun... If you ignore the books where the war never actually got into full swing, and was more like border skirmishes, and pretty much stopped once the war with tolkeen started, then the Emp DID stop the war, brand them friends, said "Oops my bad. All my fault."

(remember officially the CS is a coalition, it is not a central government in Chi-Town....or it wasn't).

You're focusing on terminology, (In a society with a high illiteracy rate by canon) Yes it's called the Coalition States, but Chi Town DOES call the shots. Just like the 'United states" are made up of 50 states, but we're ruled by the federal government out of DC. You could be a member of Ironheart or the state of Chi town but they're all members of the CS and ruled by the government.

Yes, I am rather focusing on terminology.....because we don't have anything else to go by.

Sure you do. You have the explanation of what it really is, in the books. All the books are very clear that while the individual 'states' in the CS have their own regional government, that it's overseen and ruled by the leaders of Chi Town, and the CS military.

You're trying to imply that's not how it is, due to a title. The US is called a 'Democracy' even though we're not a direct democracy, we're a representative democratic republic. Heck 7 out of 10 people on the street might not even be able to tell you that, but it doesn't change the fact. Nor is calling the US a "Democracy" seen as 'wrong' in common parlance.

Prosek declared them traitors and attacked first. Because they dared to do what they had the legal right to....but hurt his dreams of power.

If I remember correctly FQ made off with about half of the CS navy. Which would put the CS in full right to retaliate and strike against them. They declared secession. (The legality of it is highly debatable. We don't know the laws of the CS but 'Thanks for the naval ships and all the Mega damage military equipment. er.... we quit. Bugger off" is unlikely to be 'Legal" in the eyes of the CS).

FQ succeeded AFFTER the CS declared pre-emptive war on them. Not before. Taking the navy after you have been attacked is fairly justified....

No, that's not how it went down. You're either mis-remembering or purposefully spinning it to try and make your point.
The CS are codified under a central government at Chi town. (Much like the US and the federal government at DC), Each state retains it's state or regional government but it defers to the overall federal government at Chi town.

For years Chi town had been passing policy for the betterment of the CS. Which FQ didn't like, as they'd have to help out the poorer states and follow policy that was across the CS. (Dog boys and standardization of military being examples) FQ (much like the Quebecios who keep trying and failing to succeed from canada whom they're based off of) Like to see themselves as rebels who don't need anyone. They wanted all the benifits of being IN the CS, while doing what ever they wanted, and ignoring CS policy (This is straight from the FQ book.)

The CS called for the dismanteling of FQ's glitterboys, as part of the standardization of military forces, FQ refused, thinking it would weaken them and was some jab against them. It could be argued either way but all the other states were happy for the CS's armies and technology and the standardization of the military. The book states that FQ saw other laws and 'requests' as challenge to undermine them.

They're written very much like putulant children or teens that think they know best and are bucking their parents. "DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!" while still wanting the parents to pay for all their food and board. (I.E. be a part of the CS and get all the benifits, but not have to follow the rules, and do what ever they want)

So FQ refused to abide by the laws passed for the nation. (Illegal act) The Glitter boy thing and other things. (Standardization of military, usage of dog boys etc) The CS replied peacefully, with sanctions, pressure tactics (and a bit less peacefully) with threats.

The book straight up says "The people of Quebec felt like a rebellious teenager being punished by an unreasonable parent" The 'last straw' was the CS telling FQ they had to support CS military operations and FQ going 'Um... we don't think so" and th CS telling them "you'll do as your told or we'll make you"

This is akin to the US declairing war and..... Texas with all it's US military bases going "Um.... we don't like this one.. so we're not going to send any US troops from our bases to THIS war. Bugger off" The concept is insane.

You say that the CS launched a pre-emptive war on them. It's not true. The books state that when the CS told them to get in line like all the other states of the nation, after they'd (FQ) flailed around like a rebellious teen, that FQ then "Calmly' Seceded from the CS. Saying that they would now govern themselves. The CS declaired it (Rightly so) Treasonous. FQ thought it was fine to take the financial aid of the CS. the military might of the CS in the way of the navy, and other CS equipment, the food from the state of Chitown and what not to feed their people. the technology to rise them up from the dark ages, but hey.. don't tell us what to do. thanks for all those things. BTW, we're keeping all the mega damage military stuff.... but it's "OURS" now. Nor yours. Lets stay pals. Kay?"

Yeah. The CS went 'Frak no' and declaired them treasonous and went to pull the rebles back into the fold. yes by force if necissary.

This is all in the first 15 or so pages of the book.

Your assertions that the CS just popped up and declared war on them with no reason or anything are.... well. Wrong.

Now.. the book came out over a decade ago. I don't blame anyone for not remembering all the minute facts of rifts 'history' (espeically as it's rather mutable at times). But what you've typed here just isn't correct.

The "war" with FQ never really got going. At best there were a few naval battles and some border skirmishes. Neither side's hearts were really in it. Then the stuff with tolkeen started up and the CS put it's focus there. Then the stuff with the demons trying to team up with FQ against the CS happened and the FQ Troops told um to get stuffed, they might not agree with the CS but they weren't teaming up with fragging demons and started getting shot up. The CS Came over the hill. Saw the FQ troops getting eaten up by demons to defend THEM and jumped in it. If you check, the CS gave full apology about the stuff with FQ, The Emp announced he was wrong and had made a mistake and declared FQ brothers in arms and allies to the CS.

Attacks, an invasion, border battles, thousands dead....
Yeah that sounds like a war to me. [/quote]

Eh.. Border skirmishes. The CS Army was about 4.5 million at the time. A few thousand in border skirmishes isn't that huge of a deal. yes war was declaired. yes there were some battles but neither nations' heart was in it. FQ wanted to take all the benifits and go home. the CS didn't really want to kill them but wanted them to grow up and do as they were told (and agreed to do)

The real war happened in Tolkeen.

So yes, there was a bit of a scrap with FQ but it was half hearted at best, over quickly with the CS taking the blame for it, apologizing and declaring FQ friends.

Yeah the CS got beaten, withdrew and said 'oops my bad'
That doesn't negate that what they did.

Um. No. That's just a lie. I'm sorry but you've gone from "Maybe misremembering" to just typing lies now. the CS were never fully committed to theFQ front. They didn't TRY and kill FQ. They were gearing up in border disputes and testing one another resolve there. They didn't get 'beaten' with draw and say opps my bad.

That's not what happened at all. You're fabricating things now. I pointed out what happened and the 'turn' of the CS later on in my previous post. You're just lieing to make the CS look bad now.

Again you're painting some things in the darkest light you can. And I'm not saying the CS are choir boys, but when you exaggerate points and try and inflame them by doing so, you hurt the point you're attempting to make.

I am only using the paint the CS gives me

Well no.. Now you're fabricating things that didn't happen, Both to the start and the end of the war. Making up things that didn't happen is at best 'telling stories' which is what we call it when little children 'lie'.

It's not what happened, it's an untruth, so, it's a lie.

When they are genocidal invaders who conqur other nations and put percetanges of the population to the sword what else am I supposed to say?

In any war you put a percentage of the population to the sword Eli. That's what war is, you're killing some of the people on the other side till they do what you want them to do. It's not like the CS made up the concept.

SoT 1 pg 7 "And we are not talking the normal casualties of war, the Coalition Army has mad it clear in both words and deeds that this is a ware of genocide (emphasis in the text). There will be few, if any prisoners taken or people allowed to live. All practitioners of magic and nonhumans, their supporters, sympathizers and defenders shall be exterminated!"
That sort of doesn't leave any ambiguity about the CS goals or plans in Tolkeen.

Tolkeen at that point was 'evil'. *shrugs* Sorry. Not trying to be nit picky or anything but we've swung back around to "It's pretty much ok to kill evil things if you're a good guy and it doesn't make you 'Evil'. Sort of deal. When a Cyber knight kills a demon, he's not evil. He's killed an evil being. Noone bats an eye.

Tolkeen by the start of the CS/Tolkeen war was -evil-. Period. They may have started 'good' many years ago but their king went bat snit crazy and his people with him. They didn't commit some slow edge and slide into evil. They saw the CS gearing up and Tolkeen DOVE FACE FIRST Into Evil as hard as they possibly could. Not a little evil or kinda evil, but EVIL evil. Lets go break out demons inprisoned for being TOO Demony and dickish, and get their armies to come fight for us. More over lets out fit these horrible demons (Which were SEVERLY lessoned because they were drawn to be lumpy fish on stilts)with techno wizard stuff to help them fight. Lets recruit every bad supernatural creature we can along side those armies of DEMONS to fight the humans. Lets get the shadow dragons and evil evil generals to join in too. Their demons would even eat allied cyberknights on their own side if they tried to stop the demons from doing demony crap.

Yeah gee I wonder why they were desperately looking for any weapon that might save them?

Doesn't justify evil. They could have fled the field of battle and lived in peace. "My enemy is going to come (eventually) So I'm going to make deals with demonic forces" isn't justified, unless one has an evil mindset.

"anything to win" is not a 'good' mindset. It might be an UNDERSTANDABLE Mindset, but it doesn't change the fact that tolkeen wasn't just a little evil when the war happened, but full out, all in blacker than black eeeeeeeeevil at the time the war started.

Hmmmm? Possibly the genocidal maniacs south of them that had sworn to kill every last man, woman and child in the entire nation?

War sucks, but there's options other than "Brook with literal legions of demons". As pointed out both by players and by the other magic nations in the game setting itself. Tolkeen could have (should have) run. Why do I say "should have"? Many reasons. 1) Tolkeen was told in game, that they would die. Everyone knew they'd die. Not one group they talked to thought they could win. 2) Tolkeen was told straight up, that even if all the magic nations banded together, the CS would -still win-. and 3) They could have run. All the magic that they put into freeing demonic armies, out fitting demonic armies with technowizard things. All the elementals and all the time and effort to go into the god button... I mean the "Nukes just don't work because then the war would be over in 5 minutes" button, could have been put into moving the populace, or the entire city. Psychape is phased out. It's not like it's an alien concept.

Tolkeen had too much pride. And due to that pride they ignored what --everyone-- told them. Said they'd do it themself. One could say "well they shouldn't HAVE' to move. Meh. Dbees and aliens are tresspassing on earth to start with. Any land they 'have' has been stolen from humanity. Making out like they're a peaceful plot of beings just so inhabitating invaded ground doesn't change the fact that they invaded first and are squatters at best.

Even ignoring that. If there's 20 of you and 200,000 guys coming over the hill with guns. You run, or you die. If you can run and don't, that's your stupidity. Some people would rather die. That's fine, but that doesn't suddenly make the 200,000 evil for killing you. You could have run. Should have run. You choose to die in that battle. Just like tolkeen.

Thing is, Tolkeen 'tried' to cheat. they went evil and brought in demonic armies. Which, is exactly the sort of thing the CS feared, and were proven right TO fear. "We have to take out tolkeen because they are evil magic users with demonic allies"

Oh wow.. they really were. In that light the CS was 100% justified in their actions. Just like if a group of cyberknights took out a town of vampires.

As the quote makes QUITE clear the CS chose a helpless nation that had never threatened them, and swore to kill every last one of them....And then proceded to do so.

Your quote means little. It's taken out of context. There are what 6 books of quotes? I could put up 30 to point it the other way. Taken out of context yeah it looks damming but if you read the entire books, it see saws back and forth for 100s of pages. (Why? To sell books! Palladium is a book company. Of Course it's going to swing back and forth, other wise there's just the one book)

That Tolkeen went into darkness trying to resist themselves was horrible and made it a double tragedy....

That was their choice. they could have ran, vs becoming evil. They --chose-- evil. And evil they were. The "why's" of bringing in demonic armies are very seldom of import. Once you're the dude with armies of demons on the field, you're not the good guy.

But this was not some 'mercy killing of evil' The CS MADE that evil, by its deliberate actions.

But it was. that's the thing. The CS went to war with tolkeen because it was a threat, a nation of dark magic users that brooked with evil forces.

When the war happened, Tolkeen was a threat, a dark nation of dark magic users that brooked with demons. It was a choice that Tolkeen made. the CS didn't make them do that. Tolkeen choose to do that. Willingly. They could have run. Is it ironic that, the CS called them that before they were that? Sure. If anything it makes the CS look smarter (Than they really are) because tolkeen became exactly what the CS feared they -were-. They fulfilled that prophecy.

Yes, the CS was the initial aggressor, but by the time the war actually happened, the irony of it wa Tolkeen was ----exactly----- what the CS said it feared, when it was gearing up to go after them. Tolkeen became the evil that needed to be taken out.

The nation was not evil until it was attacked.

Very wrong. Go read the books. Tolkeen became evil far in advance of the actual war. They didn't get all that build up overnight. It was years prior to the actual war that tolkeen dove into evil and did what they did.

The books are QUITE clear on this.

They are, but not the way you're saying. Tolkeen's King went nuts and the military build up and what not happened years prior to the actual war. Tolkeen didn't sit around peaceful till the first shot was fired then flick a switch and put on a black hat. They built up for years previous and their descent was meteoric before the war.

Until the CS declaired that they were going to wipe them off the face of the planet and kill them ALL they were an innocent, harmless nation. Their 'crime' was that they did not murder all their B-Bees, that they educated their children, that they dared to dream on not being Proseks slaves.

You really should actually read the books. Tolkeen started as a peaceful nation. The threat from the CS was issued, then instead of remaining peaceful, Tolkeen decided to become worse than any Disney villain. It took years for them to get all that stuff done. The books are clear about it. You just have to read past the "CS are mean" bits and read about what Tolkeen DID.

Therefor the CS were attacking an evil nation of supernaturals and magic users. Tolkeen painted the CS as the Heroes when it went full out as evil as they could be. It's ironic it ended up like that, but that's how it DID end up. The CS went to war with an Evil nation of mages, magic users, supernatural beings and literal armies of demons.

It is a bit ironic yes....that the CS unjustified fears and evil turns their victims into people willing to try anything to not be murdered.

Lets be very clear. My fears and suspicions about you, doesn't MAKE you do ANYTHING. You can CHOOSE to do things, and either live up to those fears and suspicions, or you can choose not to and defy those fears and suspicions. Tolkeen didn't 'HAVE' to become evil. They CHOOSE to become evil. (Gleefully so.). It was still a choice. They weren't forced or tricked in any way. They saw two paths. Retreat and maintain their 'good' morals and ideals. Or go down the path of evil. Tolkeen didn't even blink. They SPRINTED down the path of evil as fast as they possibly could, ignoring all warnings and suggestions otherwise. That was their choice.

Yes, the irony is present, but it was still a choice that was made by the city/nation and 'supported' by it's people.

The CS Didn't force them to be evil. Tolkeen chose to be evil.

Which ironically makes the CS even MORE evil.

Tolkeen's actions where their own. You can't put tolkeen's actions on the CS. Tolkeen, if they really were the peace loving nation they claimed to be. Would have chosen not to fight, and fled. Even if they didn't flee, they could have kept their morals and honor and fought, WITH OUT Choosing to do so in an evil way.

They didn't do either. They didn't stand as a wall of shining light and freedom. Good and pure. They chose to embrace evil. That's on them.

If the CS had never sworn to wipe out Tolkeen, if they had nto started it.....then Tolkeen would never have gotten those demons

You can't prove that. That's your guess. The fact that they did do all the evil things and did get those demons shows that it's a possibility that could be realized. If the CS didn't target them, tolkeen might have seen the CS as a threat and gotten those Demons to go after the CS.

We don't know.

What we -know- is that Tolkeen was perfectly willing to deal with armies of demons, and to more over make those demons even stronger in war.

The fact they DID this (When even the CS doesn't team up with demons) Shows their capacity for evil and the fact that they would contemplate such things. As... they -did- such things.

......The CS conjured evil where their was none.....
The entire blood, from both sides is on Prosek hands.

Nope. The CS responded to a perceived threat. A threat that was -proven- to be 100% correct. Had tolkeen fled the field, the CS would have been wrong. Had Tolkeen stayed "good" and used only good magics and heroic heroes of light in a fight of 'defense'. It could be seen as mostly a CS fault.
Didn't happen.
What happened was the CS perceived a threat and Evil. When the war happened the CS fought a threat and evil.

The CS Didn't make Tolkeen evil. Tolkeen did. The irony is that, the threat perceived, was incorrect... untill it was 100% correct and worse than the CS even thought.

Sot 2 pg 15 "This book might come a sa bit of a shock to die-hard Coalition fans, because it will not (emphasis theirs) paint a very pretty picture of our boys in black. In fact for the most part, Coalition Overkill is all about how the Coalition is the bad guy, the aggressor, the oppressor. After all, is this really so hard to believe? Sometimes, folks lose sight of this, perhaps because the Coalition employs such a dazzling array of technology tat from a playing standpoint, its easy to forget that the CS espouses many of the things we have grown to detest in modern society -- xenophobia, totalitarianism, overt racism, and genocide."
This is in the Authors Notes section. He then goes on to say that the CS is betraying its claims to heroism by using its justified fears to attack those who are not threatening. He explicitly goes on to say "...which makes the Coalition's aggression all the more questionable, its heroics all the more hollow"

Yes and if you read the other books in the series it see saws back and forth a number of times, depending on which book you're reading and what not.

There is only one quote about the CS before the war kicks off.
And I was unable to find ANYTHING saying that they were ever the heroes.

Read past the first page. The books literally bounce the good guy/bad guy thing back and forth. Your post reads like you've only read the first chapter of the first book in the SoT series.

In the end, it points out that Tolkeen had descended into evil in anticipation of the CS attack, becoming the exact thing the CS feared, so those fears were 100% justified because it's what tolkeen WAS.

No they were NOT justified.

Evil generals. Evil supernaturals. Evil dragons, Evil -armies- of demons.... how was the fear not justified??

The 'fears' were the "your evil demon mages we must murder you all"

And when the war started, they were....

That was said BEFORE Tolkeen turned evil. Unless you are now credititng the CS with precognition and the moral ability to kill people because of crimes they MIGHT commit.

Works out amazingly well. The CS does have a lot of psychics in it, but no.

The point is they were perceived as a threat to the CS. The threat was ascribed to magic and dealings with dbees and the supernatural.

When the war -started- the threat was 100% realized. Dark magic, dbees and the supernatural (Demons). The CS fears were proven to be correct. had tolkeen staied 'peaceful and good' the CS would have been wrong. The fact that Tolkeen became evil demon loving bad guys, proves them right. yes. The CS went 'You're a threat due to bad things' and bad things they were when the CS came over to deal with the threat.

What they were in the 'past' makes little difference in the present.

You can call it hollow but when the time came, the CS engaged, Tolkeen was every bit the nation of evil mages that the CS always said they were. lol. They didn't have to be. They chose to become that. It would have been just as easy if not easier to flee. Instead they stood, chose to become evil and deal with armies of demons instead. That was their choice. All the other Magic nations they TRIED To get to kill the CS with them, turned them down. Told them straight up "Even if all the magic nations teamed up, we'd STILL Lose to the CS. You gotta run" Tolkeen effectivly grabbed thier crotches, called the other magic nations cowards and said they'd do it themselves, and.. dove further into evil to try it.

I don't say it was Hollow the author says it was hollow
And no, I do not consider "I am sorry, evil genocidal maniacs want your home, you have to leave because fighting back would be wrong."

Your argument is neutered by the fact that one doesn't HAVE to fight back. One can leave. Even if one does fight back, fighting back doesn't have to be done in evil ways. Tolkeen was a nation of magic users. They could have kept the high ground, stayed good guys and fought back in 'defense'. instead tolkeen embraced evil and wanted to destroy the CS. Thus, yes, wrong.

Your Logic is akin to 'The bully is coming to punch me in the mouth.. so I'm fully justified in buying a black market machine gun and killing him and his entire family." Tokeen could have avoided the fight. They didn't. They could have fought with out embracing evil. they didn't. They chose, when threatened, to become overly aggressive and destroy those that threatened them, by -any means nessisary- (I.E. evil troops, demons, magic, generals etc) And still got killed.

Just like -everyone- said they would.

They failed. Just like ----everyone---- on the planet (Except tolkeen itself) Knew and said they would.

The CS ended up taking out the city of evil mages, their allies (Yep, you start shooting at me from the side of evil and you get lumped in. Sucks for you) and their demonic hordes.

And hundreds of thousands of civilians. That is not a war, that is genocide. Pure Evil.

Oh give me a break. Those civilians were supporting the combatants. They had years to get out of dodge if they didn't want to be there. Were they civilians? yes. Civilians get killed in any war. It doesn't make every act of war 'Pure evil". The people of Tolkeen supported the military build up. They built the technowizard things for the ARMIES OF DEMONS. They built the munitions and war machines for the war. They supplied the food and clothing for those fighting the war. They wern't some innocent populace that just so happened to be there. ther King went nuts YEARS before the war actually happened. The "good" people got the hell out of there. (or the smart).

If you support evil, you get put in the same bucket. Sorry but if you feed and clothe a terrorist, I don't care if you never actually bombed a school yourself. You're on "Team Terrorst" and if you get blown up because you let a terrorist hide in your house, that's on you. that's not 'Pure evil'. That's being a part of a war. If you let terrorists hider in schools under your children and the school gets blown up. You put your kids there to act as a shield for terrorists. That's on you. Not 'evil'.

The 'people' of tolkeen supported tolkeens military build up. if they didn't. They were free to leave. (If the demons didn't eat them)

And again, even if you ignore it, people don't have a problem killing all demons, it's not 'genocide' then. It's an act of heroes.

It's hard to say that's 'evil' but when a group of cyberknights takes out a town of Demons, it's a shining image of the light.

This though is nothing of the kind.

Isn't it? Tolkeen fielded literal armies of demons. LITERALLY. They ATE some of the cyberknights that were on their 'side' and tried to stop them from doing evil stuff.

This is an army marching in and murdering the entire population of cities,

A city of evil magic users and demons....

Every last child and baby put to death.

They really wern't. Sounds dramatic, but most of the non combatants fled when it finally became clear to those delusional people that... everyone else in the world was right. They were going to lose. They fled west and some how also seemed to flee east, through the lines of the CS, through the entirety of the Coalition states itself and over to lazlo and such. lol

This is a nation swearing to murder an entire people, and then carrying through on their threat.

Ohh those poor evil mages. Those poor evil generals. Those poor poor armies of thousands of giant mutant fish demons. Awwwwwww. lol seriously. it's exactly as I pointed out.

This is, pure and simple, the CS revealing that they are a true evil on par with the Vampires and Splugorth.

No more evil than a cyberknight that kills a demon preying on a town. And that's the point you seem to be missing. When "good guys" Kill demons they're "GOOD GUYS" When the CS takes out armies of demons and evil magic users and superntural evil things, you say they're 'Pure and simple evil on par with vampires"

Why is that? Because the CS dress in black? How come it's ok for a Cyberknight to kill a demon, but not a CS troop? Demon just wants to be demony! He just wants to do what demons do! Right? lol

The only light in here was the Juicers and Cyberknights evacuating civlians.

CK's even fought with other CK's over this. Their leader said to stay out of it. (He wasn't quite as dumb as some) he wasn't listened to by about half the CK's. What thanks did those 'heroes' get? Well Tolkeen's own forces ate some of them when they tried to stop tolkeen's evil things from doing evil things. lol.

Yeah the JLA did cover some refugees. That was cool and all. Doesn't change the fact that Tolkeen was evil when it went down.

The CS was pure demon level evil fighting a foe whom they had driven through desperation and fear into foolish evil

Ohhhh no. You don't get to call the army of 'humans' responding to a threat demons, when the other side actually -fielded armies of --DEMONS--. lol. That's not even clever wordplay.

Guys in black armor...... vs... actual DEMONS. Come on. lol You must feel a little silly trying to play off the army of DEMONS as the poor pitiful peaceful victims.... the city with armies of thousands of DEMONS, isn't a city of peaceful victims.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Spoiler:

SoT may not paint the CS in a good light, but War is War. Once battle is joined both sides do what they must or feel is right, from their point of view (i.e. Sorcerer's Revenge).

However when the CS enters the battle with the intention of total extermination from the outset then the claim rings hollow. They are not reacting to situations but causing them deliberately.

When you enter into a battle against an army of Demons, it's evil to intend to kill them all? .... Hurm.. I'm not sure everyone would agree with you.[/quote]
Unless you are calling the civilians, and their children Demons......
The CS said that they wanted to kill EVERYONE. [/quote]

If you're supporting the army of demons, either with food or other support, then you get lumped in with um. yep. Don't want to be lumped in? Don't back the team using demons.

However, history is history, how they move forward may change. If I may be allowed to use history as an example, the US Army, that once subdued the American West evolves to be the Army that liberates France in WW2. Fast forward, that same institution liberates Kuwait then a decade later invades Iraq (on questionable grounds). Things can change over time, but there is certainly room in the CS forces for heroic people and actions.

And modern Germany is a great country. That does not mean that the Nazis were not evil.

You're actually making the point for the other side there. By this logic the CS is a great country, but could have been evil when they did things in the past. I.E. They're a great country 'now' As they fight the minion wars, even if they were 'evil' in the past.[/quote]
No the CS is not great now. [/quote]

They're fighting armies of demons and devils to keep them from taking over rifts earth. That's not a good thing? How so?

They have done nothing to change. Now if you have a citation someplace that they have had a change of heart, abandoned their desires for genocide and.....oh wait, even in the previews of the next too books we see yet more of their genocidal ways......nope, they are still Nazi evil.

Ignorant bad PR. The CS are rallying humanity to fight back agsinst invading armies of demons and deevils.

While the CS is a product of it's environment, I think it could be a force for good or evil. A lot depending on your point of view. It's not totally bad, it's definitely not totally good (reading is fundamental!), it's more grey.

No its not in any way grey.

Oh it very much is. If you're a human wanting to live a life in rifts earth, and not get eaten by any of 1000 kinds of monsters, have safty, prosperity, food, clothes, tv, etc, the CS is very good. Sure there's alot of rules, and it's a bit harsh at times but rules and harshness beats getting eaten by what you THOUGHT was your cat the day before.[/quote]
The CS makes monsters (look at tolkeen) [/quote]

No. You're obsolving tolkeen of any act of free will. Which is a lie. The CS didn't mind control Tolkeen to become evil.

Tolkeen CHOSE to become evil.

Nice try though, but a lie.

since EVERY OTHER HUMAN NATION ON THE PLANET gets by with out genocide.....nope

What other human nations are you claiming?

this is not self defense.

You need to read the Megaverse in flames book. the CS fighting demons and devils is very much self defense. They state clearly what the demons and devils are up to. You don't seem to comprehend that. I'm not sure if you don't have the books or what, but there's no if's ands or butts about the Minion war.

Sorry you cant claim its 'necisary' when no one else, on the planet has to do it. It is a choice. They are evil because they WANT to be evil. That is the opposite of grey.

You've yet to prove they're evil. Fighting againstg armies of demons is not an evil act. You call it genocide, but.. again it's armies of demons. Noone's buying it. (Except the poor evil supernatual invading demons))

It is pretty much the dictionary definition of evil.

Only from outside points of view. If you're a demon, the CS seems evil because it'll kill you with out question. If you're in a city state that say... .fields armies of 1000s of demons to fight the CS and the CS shoot you, they might seem evil. [/quote]
Murder because you choose to murder is evil. No one else has to do it to survive its a CHOICE of the CS. [/quote]

You really don't seem to understand or know the Rifts earth setting....

From the CS point of view, Earth belongs to the humans. Any non humans are alien invaders, whom have preyed on humanity for 300 years. Killing an alien invader who's preyed on humanity for 300 years isn't 'evil' it's an act of a hero. KILL THOSE ALIEN INVADERS! PUSH THEM BACK AND OFF ___OUR___ Planet!

Genocide is evil. Period.

So your contention is that it's evil to kill demons? That we should just let them kill us instead? Intresting look at it, but I don't think people are going to agree with that take.

We already had this discussion that the alignment system doesn't make for such fine distictions......let alone the fact that its a pure lie. The CS is anti-mage as well. And their leaders know, for a fact, that magic existed before.

Being anti-magic isn't evil. It's a choice. I traditionally don't play magic users. Does that make me evil?

They are only 'good' if you are exactly like them, and subservient to their needs. Genocidal Dictatorial regimes are pretty hard to call 'good'

Not at all. What you paint as genocidal, they see as surviving against insurmountable odds against alien and supernatural invaders to their planet. And.... thing is. They're right. It might suck for the Dbees and stuff that didn't ask to be here, but earth was Human's first. The rest came later and.. yes. Invaded the planet and killed off billions of humans. As called to point before, it's very much like Kuwait being invaded. Fighting back didn't make the Kuwait people 'evil'.

They are not doing anything that is needed for survival. [/quote]

Yes, they are. When the other side wants to eat or enslave you, yes, it's out of survival.

It is a wilful choice to CHOOSE to be evil and genocidal.

But you've yet to prove either. Unless you consider killing demons and stuff genocidal. Which isn't a common viewpoint.

Not one of the other human nations on Rifts Earth does this. Not ONE.

lol again, you need to read the rifts books.

Even ones with less resources. This means that no, its not survival its a choice.

Sure it is. What works for one nation might not work for another. Very few nations on rifts earth are as large as the CS. those that are have their own problems. the NGR is fighting a war too. Killing every single gargoyle or allie they can find. They even asked the CS for help in doing it.

You act like the CS is the only one doing things. They're not. They're just hte one you see most often as they're central in the canon.

I'd like to see the CS without Karl Prosec running it for a start. There's a lot of things I don't like about the coalition, that doesn't mean they can never be heroic. Heroes of Humanity certainly makes it seem like they can lean towards the heroic end of the spectrum.

Yes if we totally remake them then sure they could be good....

Not at all. You only need two or three policy shifts for the CS to be good. That and paint the armor red white and blue.
1) "Allow for DBee immigration. Make it like the NGR. Military service (or substantial public service) rewards citizenship. BOOM hugest hurtle done.
2) "Allow for SOME magic, under strict supervision and registration" This wouldn't be alien to anyone. We have to register our guns these days. Mages can throw mega damage from their fingers. Registration and overview of magic, could be allowed and regulated. Boom second hugest hurtle down.
3) (And i consider this conditional as it addresses what is a moronic aspect of canon) Educate the populace. The old 'keep them from reading so they don't read history books' is pretty useless. Noone's gong to frigging CARE about the past in Rifts earth. If there's a dragon that ate your cousin Ted, and his entire family out on the farm, the citizen of the CS that can read isn't going to suddenly throw down his CS Citizenship card and leave a megacity to go out and live in the wilds with out CS protection. The huge illiterate population in an advanced technological society is silly. When KS did it to start it was silly and over the pst 25 years it's just gotten more and more silly as time goes on. Still Not argueing how impossible it would be to have a society like that. As the provisional 3rd policy, *shrugs* teach your population to read.

Three policies that would change the CS (That and the paint job) and boom You're done. Shining good guys in the US.
More over these aren't totally alien concepts to the CS. The CS "Used" To have magic users. They still do in the form of the Vanguard. Instead of doing their thing in secret it'd be easy to pull them off. paint them in paterotic colors, and announce "Magic is scary, but after many years of research, some of our best minds have found a way... .a way, to USE this WEAPON against those that would use it against us! BEHOLD!! THE VANGUARD!!! THE CS MAGIC SQUAD! Who's purpose is to stop those that would use -magic- against our people. Fighting fire with fire!!

BOOM one announcement by the Emp. The nation rallys and backs up the Vanguard. People swell to recruiting stations and the numbers of the vanguard grow.

The Dbee thing? Well. the NGR does it. Sure they're treated as second class citizens but it's still possible. the CS deals with the NGR and sees this. They deal with Northern Gun who is perfectly happy to deal with DBees, even if they put on a show for the CS watchers. More over the Disavowed shows us that the Emp's son, is more than willing to use magic users and Dbees if he sees the need.

So what would it take for the CS to drop the 'evil' look?

Emp Dies. Son takes over. Makes ONLY THREE Policy Changes.

Boom. Done.

SO lets see.....we reverse every single policy that descripes the CS as it is now (genocidal, anti-Dee-Bee, Anti-Magic, Anti-Educations....)

Not every single policy. Three policies. The CS is a nation of millions of people. Your use of the 'trigger word' genocidal, doesn't do anything. If you use it once it looks shocking. Writing it 50 times just makes it filler.

Yeah that's pretty much the definition of 'totally remake them'. Thank you, you have made my point.

It's not totally remaking them. it's changing three policies. The CS could still exist as a nation of humans on rifts Earth, with minor changes they'd be shining basitions of light. My point is that your black wash of them and oh dhey're ebbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbil!" is that thin. That they are evil because you choose to see them that way. Three simple policy changes (Two really as there's no way the third could actually exist to be addressed) and suddenly they're everyone's good guys ( and of course the Red white and blue skins for their armor outfits. *nodnod*)

As for what HoH will do.....I will wait till the actull book is out and not the sample bits from the sneak peek.

In other words, units of the CS, soldiers of the CS are capable of heroic action, even if the CS itself is not a good guy.

A unit of Splugorth minions is capable of heroic action as well....that doesn't mean that you could mistake the Splugorth for good guys.

Well one are a group of humans, free to be good or bad by choice, fighting for the survival of humanity on a planet beset by 1000s of types of monsters trying to kill them.
The other is a group of aliens, working for evil supernatural intelligence, here to acquire slaves or food stock to be sold at interdimensional market.
yes the Sploog unit could kill a band of demons, just like a CS squad could, but at the end of the day.....

Again. The CS is not 'fighting for the survival of humanity' any more than the Nazis were fighting for the survival of True Man. [/quote]

Thing is. They are. What you (and those like you that just see the black uniform and scream Nazzi) fail to realize or remember, is that humanity was almost destroyed. That wasn't imagined. That humanity was preyed upon by countless demons and devils for 200 years of the dark ages. That happened. That when humanity was pulling itself back together after the loss of billions and billions of people, that humanity -was- attacked by a nation of evil magic users trying to kill them off. These were not faked threats. They were real live threats for 200 years of the dark ages and the last 100 years in the regrowth of humanity.

You make it out like they're making up things and then overreacting to them. They're really not. They're reacting (and yes sometimes over reacting) To very very VERY REAL Threats, both during the past 300 years and threats that remain to this day (In rifts earth) The monsters really are out there. The Sploog really are out there, the vamps really are out there, the -nations of evil mages- really are out there, the invading armies of demons really are out there, the invading armies of deevils really are out there.

All those things really do want to prey on humanity, eat or enslave them. It's not the CS freaking out for no reason. All those reasons very much do exist.

Do 'Non violent Dbees' often get lumped in with the list of actual threats 50 miles long? yeah. Why? 300 years of violent threats of every shape size and color. To take the time to weed out the non violent ones would be a danger to humanity. So sad as it is, the non violent invading aliens get lumped in with the demons and the violent ones. Sucks to be them, but the evil ones ruined it for everyone.

They are fighting for the enslavement of the world to the Prosek Ambition.

Naa. the CS don't want to enslave the world. Other than a few hard to find sentences, the CS don't really condone slavery. They just want all the aliens and demons and stuff to leave humans alone.

The environment that spawned the CS needs to be taken into account as well. Time, place, people, total situation. I feel this question needs to be asked, 'what does it take for humanity to survive, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth?' It's highly debatable.

Since we see a LOT of examples of humanity surviving, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth that are not evil genocidal empires

Really? Do we? Do we see a LOT of examples with numbers anywhere close to the CS? Where? The NGR? They ship debees to their borders and kick them out. Doesn't sound quite soooo bad, untill you realize that once you're out side the NGR boarders you're in the territory of invading demons. That or let the Dbees be cannon fodder for 20 years to earn citizenship.

You see a lot of small human communities, but not nations. Not millions of humans. As pointed out previously if you added up all the other humans in North america together you wouldn't come close to the numbers in the CS.[/quote]
Ummmm lets look
Arnzo, Lazlo, Tolkeen, New Kenonia, Kingsdale, [/quote]

All those added together don't equal one CS state. You're talking about small towns, and isn't Arnzo fulla vampires? Tolkeen was a nation of evil mages with demmonic armies. Etc. Your point fails.

New German Republic,

The NGR is in a generations long war of genocide against... demons.....

Colombia, Silver River Republics, Itcho,

From books disavowed to be indulgances of a buddy...

The Republic of Japan, The Japanese Empire,

Skipped 100s of years of predation and are still at war with the powers around them.

the Geofront,

Hidden away and at war with the menions of 'hel' in china if memory serves.

The Warcamps, Tarnow, Krackow,

All at war with one another, who's societies revolve around being at war with one another....

New Camelot, Bath..... [/quote]

Beset by demons and at war with the evil of the area...

I could go on and on.

But you've gone nowhere. The list you have are either towns and cities being compaired to nations of tens of millions or, pretty much all of them fighting their own wars with one another or the evil in the area they're in. You've made no point. You've just listed off other nations that war on one another or are comitting genocide themselves.

But... it's ok when they do it... demons and stuff. yeah?

There are literally HUNDREDS of plaes that don't do this.

There's not. You just name off places that do the same things in differnt ways, or with different enemies. The NGR has been at war with demons for years and years. conducting "Their' genocidal war. The only difference being that they let their people read. lol

And the most damning thing is that each of the states that makes up the CS didn't do it before they became the CS. Chi Town allowed mages for instance. And it is mentioned that the Genocide policies are new to the Proseks.

Before there was a CS they didn't have the power to do anything. Your statement is akin to saying "When mike tysion was 4 he didn't actually beat up professional boxers in the ring. It was only after he grew in strength and power and ferocity, was he able to win in the ring and take opponents apart (Sometimes literally)

No kidding. When the CS was forming and was scattered settlements of humans, fighting to survive against insurmountable odds, they wern't the military juggernaunt they are now? No kidding! Only after they joined together and gained strength, technology and military might, could they be a large military Power? lol

Really? You don't say!

Sure it's easy to have a town of 10 people that are frendly and not militant towards their neighbors (But don't bet on it) Gets alot harder when there's 50 of you, alot harder when there's 100. 500. 5000, 50,000, 500,000, 5,000,000, etc.

It was easy enough for Chi Town, Free Quebec, Iron Heart et all to do it before they went all meglo...

And again it's really easy to police 10 people and watch out for criminals. When there's only 9 other people, it's really easy to figure out who a theif is.. or a murderer. When you have 100 people it's 10 times as hard. when you have 1000 people it's 100 times as hard. etc etc etc. The CS is the largest Human population on that side of the planet.

And again you're painting the cs as 'genocidal empire' is a paint job. It's bad PR. Does it sometimes fit? Sure, if you concider killing armies of demons and such 'genocide' and not 'a war to preserve humanity from genocidal demons intent on our destruction'.

Its not a paint job.

Thing is, that's all it is. Which is sad. There are points you could make to back your side of the debate that would be harder to dispute, but you fail to use them (and I'm not gonna tell ya. lol )

Its what they self proclaim as.

No.. It's what you claim they are. There's a difference.

And no, its not a 'war to preserve humanity from genocidal demons intent on our destruction.' That is proveably false as no one else has to do it.

*Hands you a copy of megaverse in flames* Talk to me when you've read it.

then I think we can pretty safely rule out the need to be an evil empire to survive.

Please tell us these huge empries of humanity living in peace on rifts earth? [/quote]
The other places are not involved in genocide. This sort of proves that genocide is not needed to survive. [/quote]

Except they are... but noone cares because the genocide is against gargyoles, or whatever they call the demons in china, or the demons in where ever else they are.... or ther other places don't have the military might to do any of the sort.

If Rhode Island isn't involved in taking over countries in Africa.. noone's REALLY surprised.. it's just Rhode island... I guess a better example might be... Ok..> Greenland isn't over in Asia taking over countries. Really? Nooo! The Armies of Greenland aren't doing it? Cuz.... they can't?

ESPECIALLY since the CS is recent. They have nothing what so ever to do with the survival of humanity through the dark age.
The nation we call the CS is recent.

They've grown up over the last 100 years after the 200 years of dark ages.

By this theory any and all nations in Rifts earth are' recent'

It is a conglomeration of multiple other survivor states true. But the CS is recent.
Chi Town helped people survive.....but so did Free Quebec. Even Tolkeen is said to have been one of those 'survivor states' if I recall correctly.

Till they went evil and had to be put down like a rabid dog.

The CS can not claim the mantle of "ohhh with out us humans would have died"....because they are not the reason humans survived.

They're the main reason that humanity has survived in North America. yes. if you can't see that, then you're not reading the books.

[cosmicfish]

Getting long so I'll put it in a spoiler tag for those that want to read it. If not, it's easily skipped.

Course, no one can tell to whom you are responding unless they click on the spoiler tag anyway...

[Alrik Vas]

True, anyone can be good or evil, I'll take the guy who was trained to have my back. More often than not, that's a fellow soldier.

Except that in this case, odds are pretty good that the "fellow soldier" was actually trained to watch you for any deviation from CS norms and then either refuse to "have your back" or even kill you as soon as you are the biggest threat to the CS in the room. Seriously, the CS might work with fellow humans, but if you show any of a dozen different traits (many involuntary!) the fact that you are human and good will not matter!

Give me an example.

[Killer Cyborg]

Getting long so I'll put it in a spoiler tag for those that want to read it. If not, it's easily skipped.

Course, no one can tell to whom you are responding unless they click on the spoiler tag anyway...

True... but not everybody cares.

[cosmicfish]

True, anyone can be good or evil, I'll take the guy who was trained to have my back. More often than not, that's a fellow soldier.

Except that in this case, odds are pretty good that the "fellow soldier" was actually trained to watch you for any deviation from CS norms and then either refuse to "have your back" or even kill you as soon as you are the biggest threat to the CS in the room. Seriously, the CS might work with fellow humans, but if you show any of a dozen different traits (many involuntary!) the fact that you are human and good will not matter!

Give me an example.

Being a practitioner of magic, being a user of magical items, being sympathetic to those who use magic, being a human mutant, being a human from another dimension, being a body fixer or rogue scientist or rogue scholar or just being educated... the list gets pretty long!

[Alrik Vas]

I meant an example of how CS troops turn on each other in battle.

[cosmicfish]

I meant an example of how CS troops turn on each other in battle.

I didn't get that. You had said:

CS is a lying, cheating sunuvabish, but I'd rather a human behind me, even if it puts a demon in front of me.

And it was not clear that the "me" in that statement was also a CS soldier. I was considering it as a generic Rifts PC "me", and for the majority of OCCs and RCCs, a CS soldier behind you is probably going to shoot you at the earliest opportunity.

Even still, considering the treatment of soldiers who defy the evil orders of their superiors, I am still not convinced that I would want any CS soldier behind me. Because even if I was a CS soldier, I would be exactly the kind they would want to hang for treason.

[Alrik Vas]

It's a fair point of view. I don't think they're great heroes or anything myself. Yet I look at the CS army like I do most militaries. They need the soldiers alive to fight. Personnel matters are going to be looked at from a point of taking the best possible people for a billet (which isn't always the best in reality, even happy shining hand holding armies have this issue). In the end, they're not going to stick a bunch of white knights with a bunch of backstabbing coots. There going to put capable soldiers on the field, people trained to work together and save each other's lives if need be. The narrative doesn't like the enemy being relatable, though, so here we have this discussion. Lastly, the CS has much further to go until it's a force for pure evil than it has for being a positive power in Rifts moral compass. This is perhaps for the very reason that good and evil are measurable in the setting as has been pointed out. Killing mortals with ruthless, merciless tactics they do, and there's nothing morally sound about it...But one thing they'll never get caught doing is summoning demons.