saves to low ?

victor15065 · Unread post by **victor15065** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:06 pm

Dose anyone else think spell strength is to low in high level games?

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:11 pm

Don't dedicated casters get spell strength bonuses at higher levels?

Or did you mean something different when you said "high level games"?

--flatline

victor15065 · Unread post by **victor15065** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:38 pm

Most classes rather get bonuses to pe so high through physical skills or just bonuses from their occ that with miscellaneous bonuses everyone ends up with like a +7 or 8 even a lvl 15 mage save is only 18 the save just seems to low

kiralon · Unread post by **kiralon** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:20 pm

The game is even less balanced at high level, but its the same as penetrating armour, but spells like carpet of adhesion, increase weight, float (warlock style), river of lava and the like where the save is mostly irrevelant or they don't get one. Increase weight is great, costs 4 ppe and its specifically says items get no save. At level 10 it adds 1000lbs of weight. cast it on a shirt, or a helmet, a filling, the fighters runesword, or the ring on his finger. Don't just cast it once, cast it 15 times on the fighters chainmail and watch him ooze through the gaps in the chain as 7 tonnes of chainmail weighs down on him. The knight is charging on his horse, carpet of adhesion will bring him to a dead stop, the warlock float in air spell also gets no save, makes the critter float, halves his speed and his attacks per round and his combat bonuses (good spell for fighting dragons with). So yes the bonus to spell strength sucks (I have a will power stat that is rolled like iq, and gives bonuses to spell strength like pp does for hth but at half what the pp bonuses are in the book) but often it wont matter.

victor15065 · Unread post by **victor15065** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:09 pm

That sound like a good deal IQ bonus to spell saves ty

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:40 pm

I have found a few solutions.
One that I have used in some of my games was I allowed a 'spell breaker' proficiency. This allows a trained mage to 'punch through resistant wills with their own.'. In game terms it allows mages with access to it (I usually restrict it to level 5+ characters) to use their ME bonus as a penalty to someone's save bonus. This can never reduce your save below 0.
So. If you have a +11 to save vs spell, and the mage has a SS 16, and a ME bonus of +4....you only get a +7 to save. If you had only had a +3 save vs Spell, then you would be knocked down to a +0 (not a -1).

Yes, this is only for 'high magic' games where punching out saves is a desired feature. For some games the high saves is not a bug but a feature.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:05 pm

I agree that spell strength is too low. It makes spells that allow a save to completely ignore their effects worthless in my opinion - especially if the spell has a high P.P.E. cost! I don't think I've ever been in a game where majority of the players didn't have a bonus to save vs magic from an exceptional P.E.. Once you start adding in O.C.C. or R.C.C. bonuses to save as well, you may as well just never cast a spell that allows a saving throw again.

victor15065 · Unread post by **victor15065** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:08 am

Agreed I think I like the me bonus more

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:10 am

You know, it's amazing that with a +8 to save vs magic on many of the NPC's I've been running, that I continuously roll under a 5 to save vs spell magick.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:19 am

Conversely, the last G.M. I gamed with couldn't seem to roll below a 10 so even a tiny bonus to save (which his N.P.C.'s most assuredly did not have) meant magic was consistently saved against.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:22 pm

for sure, but the randomness is supposed to be there. I think I make about 1 in 4 saving throws vs my players. They do about the same, except when it comes to HF checks, they always blow them out of the water.

Oh, evil demon lord of apocalyptic power? Yeah, they call him Mr. Snuggles and laugh at his cheesy lion cloth. /sigh

victor15065 · Unread post by **victor15065** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:11 am

Mabey its because I tend to be lucky with dice and roll high most of the time lol

MADMANMIKE · Unread post by **MADMANMIKE** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:30 am

victor15065 wrote:Most classes rather get bonuses to pe so high through physical skills or just bonuses from their occ that with miscellaneous bonuses everyone ends up with like a +7 or 8 even a lvl 15 mage save is only 18 the save just seems to low

Most races in Palladium Fantasy have a base P.E. of 3D6.. the average roll of 3D6 is 10-11.. and taking all of the physical skills available in Palladium Fantasy provides a bonus to P.E. of 5.. So how is 'everyone ends up with like a +7 or 8' a possibility? To get a +7 to save vs. Magic you need to have a minimum P.E. of 28, which with every physical skill is a base of 25, 1 point higher than is possible on a base attribute roll... I'm not saying it's impossible to get that, I'm saying it's crazy that 'everyone' gets it..

How does that work?

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:36 am

Because of OCC and Racial bonuses to save vs magic IN ADDITION to any bonus from high PE.

--flatline

MADMANMIKE · Unread post by **MADMANMIKE** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:42 pm

flatline wrote:Because of OCC and Racial bonuses to save vs magic IN ADDITION to any bonus from high PE.

--flatline

Uhm, no.

Classes in Palladium Fantasy (I'm just going by the main book here as it clearly supports my point)

CLERGY:
Priest of Light & Priest of Darkness
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running, both unlikely for the class)
Warrior Monk
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4
Druid
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 2, 6, 10 & 14 (max of +4)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4 (assuming they take Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running, again unlikely for the class)

MEN OF ARMS
Mercenary Warrior
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Soldier
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4 (assuming they take Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running)
Long Bowman
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Knight
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Palladin
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4 (assuming they take Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running)
Ranger
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Thief
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +3 (assuming they take Acrobatics, Tumbling and Running)
Assassin
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +5 (assuming they take Acrobatics, Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running)

OPTIONAL
Merchant
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Noble
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Scholar
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Squire
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Vagabond/Peasant or Farmer
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)

PRACTITIONERS OF MAGIC
Wizard
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 3, 6, 9, 12 & 15 (MAX total +5)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Warlock
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Witch
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. (unless they take the Gift of Union, then +6), Save vs. Magic +2 for Gift of Power OR +1 for Gift of Magic, OR +4 against Illusionary ONLY for Gift of Union
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Diabolist
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 2,5, 10 & 15 (MAX total +4)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Summoner
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 4, 8 & 12 (total +3)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)

PSYCHIC CHARACTER CLASSES
Psychic Sensitive
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +3)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Psi-Healer
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +4)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Psi-Mystic
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +2)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Mind Mage
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +6)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)

And RACES
Humans
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Elves
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Dwarves
P.E. 4D6 straight, +1 to save vs. magic
Gnomes
P.E. 3D6+6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Troglodytes
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Kobolds
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Goblins
P.E. 3D6, +1 to save vs. FAERIE magic only
Hob-Goblins
P.E. 3D6, +1 to save vs. FAERIE magic only
Orcs
P.E. 3D6+2 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Ogres
P.E. 3D6+6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Trolls
P.E. 3D6+6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Changeling
P.E. 2D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Wolfen
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Coyles
P.E. 3D6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic

So, a Changeling's Max P.E. is 21, meaning it would have to be a 12th level Wizard or a 15th level Diabolist to get a +7 to save vs. Magic; an Orcs Max P.E. is 20, meaning it can only get a +7 to save vs. magic by being a Witch with the Gift of Union (and taking both available physical skills).

Again those are the maximum possible rolls for Changeling and Orc.

Dwarves get a 4D6, with an average of 12-13 for a base P.E.

Gnomes, Trolls and Ogres get a 3D6+6, giving an average of 16-17.

All other races have 3D6 getting an average base P.E. of 10-11.

So for everbody to have a bonus of +7 or 8 to save vs. Magic is not possible. At least not by the rules, and if you aren't generating your characters by the rules, how can you be upset that the rules don't give a high enough spell strength?

Even min-maxing it's unlikely for everybody to have that high a bonus..

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:14 pm

MADMANMIKE wrote:
Spoiler:
flatline wrote:Because of OCC and Racial bonuses to save vs magic IN ADDITION to any bonus from high PE.

--flatline

Uhm, no.

Classes in Palladium Fantasy (I'm just going by the main book here as it clearly supports my point)

CLERGY:
Priest of Light & Priest of Darkness
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running, both unlikely for the class)
Warrior Monk
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4
Druid
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 2, 6, 10 & 14 (max of +4)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4 (assuming they take Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running, again unlikely for the class)

MEN OF ARMS
Mercenary Warrior
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Soldier
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4 (assuming they take Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running)
Long Bowman
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Knight
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Palladin
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4 (assuming they take Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running)
Ranger
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Thief
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +3 (assuming they take Acrobatics, Tumbling and Running)
Assassin
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +5 (assuming they take Acrobatics, Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running)

OPTIONAL
Merchant
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Noble
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Scholar
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Squire
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Vagabond/Peasant or Farmer
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)

PRACTITIONERS OF MAGIC
Wizard
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 3, 6, 9, 12 & 15 (MAX total +5)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Warlock
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Witch
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. (unless they take the Gift of Union, then +6), Save vs. Magic +2 for Gift of Power OR +1 for Gift of Magic, OR +4 against Illusionary ONLY for Gift of Union
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Diabolist
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 2,5, 10 & 15 (MAX total +4)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Summoner
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 4, 8 & 12 (total +3)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)

PSYCHIC CHARACTER CLASSES
Psychic Sensitive
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +3)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Psi-Healer
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +4)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Psi-Mystic
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +2)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Mind Mage
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +6)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)

And RACES
Humans
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Elves
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Dwarves
P.E. 4D6 straight, +1 to save vs. magic
Gnomes
P.E. 3D6+6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Troglodytes
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Kobolds
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Goblins
P.E. 3D6, +1 to save vs. FAERIE magic only
Hob-Goblins
P.E. 3D6, +1 to save vs. FAERIE magic only
Orcs
P.E. 3D6+2 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Ogres
P.E. 3D6+6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Trolls
P.E. 3D6+6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Changeling
P.E. 2D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Wolfen
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Coyles
P.E. 3D6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic

So, a Changeling's Max P.E. is 21, meaning it would have to be a 12th level Wizard or a 15th level Diabolist to get a +7 to save vs. Magic; an Orcs Max P.E. is 20, meaning it can only get a +7 to save vs. magic by being a Witch with the Gift of Union (and taking both available physical skills).

Again those are the maximum possible rolls for Changeling and Orc.

Dwarves get a 4D6, with an average of 12-13 for a base P.E.

Gnomes, Trolls and Ogres get a 3D6+6, giving an average of 16-17.

All other races have 3D6 getting an average base P.E. of 10-11.

So for everbody to have a bonus of +7 or 8 to save vs. Magic is not possible. At least not by the rules, and if you aren't generating your characters by the rules, how can you be upset that the rules don't give a high enough spell strength?

Even min-maxing it's unlikely for everybody to have that high a bonus..

Epic Post in spoiler for length...
Though I guess you could have a +1 (or even +2) if you buy a protective item from an Alchemist (of course the costs here are pretty steep.....)
But yeah.....in PF, by the rules, its hard to rack up the monster saves.

victor15065 · Unread post by **victor15065** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:57 pm

I guess you guys don't have bonuses from magic items and things like spells and ward protections and miscellaneous things

MADMANMIKE · Unread post by **MADMANMIKE** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:00 pm

victor15065 wrote:I guess you guys don't have bonuses from magic items and things like spells and ward protections and miscellaneous things

There's a simple rule to communication that's been lost here; if you don't say what you mean, you won't mean what you've said...

victor15065 wrote:Most classes rather get bonuses to pe so high through physical skills or just bonuses from their occ that with miscellaneous bonuses everyone ends up with like a +7 or 8 even a lvl 15 mage save is only 18 the save just seems to low

There's no mention of "magic items and things like spells and ward protections and miscellaneous things" in that post, which is what led me to point out the facts of character generation..

Your issue isn't that the spell strength is too low, it's that your characters are over-powered and imbalance the game..

So to address the original post of the thread:

victor15065 wrote:Dose anyone else think spell strength is to low in high level games?

Nope, it's just fine. I've run games with characters that started at 1st level and role-played through months of weekly gaming sessions and never reached seventh level.. and never munched out their saving bonuses either..

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:23 pm

victor15065 wrote:I guess you guys don't have bonuses from magic items and things like spells and ward protections and miscellaneous things

Even if we add in this (which is not what you said before, you were just talking about PE and OCC bonuses). There are not a huge number of 'save vs magic' bonuses that you can stack on in PF. You could buy an amulet (as per the level 12 spell...depends on how common those are) that's +1. You can get +1 from a specific kind of magic (ward, spell, circle) for another 35,000 GP if you buy an alchemist ring.....The ward is +2, with a duration of 10 minutes/level, takes one of the diabolists activations, has to be drawn.....What other spells are you adding in here?
Because to get +7....well if everyone has an amulet, a ring, and a permanent ward!...they would STILL need +3 save from PE/Class which would require most people to have PE scores of 20+.....And that's pretty impressive if every single person in your games has a PE of 20, plus a permanent ward, plus an amulet, plus a set of alchemist rings.......

victor15065 · Unread post by **victor15065** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:50 pm

Just some ward tattoes that a diablost can put on himself can add up to a + 4 vs certain types of magic or at least a +2 to all say another +1 from a witches bottle (of course against witches) they all add up

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:00 pm

but that's if you've got, or are, a diabolist. they aren't that common and their services aren't exactly cheap. items buff, spells buff, but class and stats aren't the greatest factors of saves in PF it seems.

42dragon · Unread post by **42dragon** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:48 am

I think alot of this comes from the fact that there are so many house rules when playing any Palladium Books game that, yes the saving throws and combat bonuses can get out of hand quickly. I have rarely played a game where there wasn't at least minor if not major tweaking to the way stats are rolled. Also now with the additional races particularly from LotD books, there are additional sources for stats and bonuses.

I think I have only ever been in one game where everyone rolled straight up and put the attributes down in the order they were rolled. That game was fun, but many characters didn't feel very heroic. (With my stats, I would have been better suited to be a dishwasher not an adventurer.)

Some examples of attribute rolling rules.
Re-roll 1's and 3's
Unlimited exploding 6's
Re-roll 1's and roll 3 complete sets and take the best set
Mix and match where you put any rolls that use the same number of dice
Human example start with 8 of the best rolls; 18, 17, 16, ect.. put them where you want and then roll the potential expoloding dice on those top three
Or any combination of the above

Based on these paractices yes, saves can be excessive.

However the saving throw targets that don't make lots of sense to me are the psychic ones. I get that if you have psychic powers you should be better at saving but perhaps that should have been an bonus to save for the class instead of a different target for each person. And why isn't it harder to save vs. a master psychic than a minor or major. They also don't grow in potency like a mage. A warrior with minor abilities and telepathy at level 1 has the same chance to read surface thoughts with telepathy as a level 15 Mind Mage. Since the target to save is based on the target not the strength of the psychic.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:16 am

Even taking away all the possible bonuses for saving throws versus spells, you're left with a base spell saving throw of 12. That means on average 40% of the people - two out of every five people - you cast magic against will succeed in resisting the magic. Just, outright resisting it and not being affected in any way. Here's some of the spells that 40% of targets will just statistically ignore:

Blinding Flash (1+)
Concealment (6)
Charismatic Aura (10)
Fools Gold (10)
Apparition (20)
Circle of Concealment (15 or 100)
Life Drain (25)
Hallucination (30)
any Curse spell (35 or more)
Wisps of Confusion (40)
Age (50)
Havoc (50)
Mute (50)
Speed of the Snail (50)

Personally, I would prefer to see either saving throws be made harder to make, or the spells that allow a saving throw to have a lesser effect (but still an effect!) if the save is made. As it stands now, spells like the ones I listed above just can't be relied on, and in many cases would be too risky to even try. Not if 2 out of every 5 people can ignore their effects.

Cinos · Unread post by **Cinos** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:06 pm

So Glistam, are you then also for missed melee and/or ranged attacks to do partial damage? You miss a great deal more of the time then you do with spells, since generally the target with have a relatively equal bonus so about 1 in 2 people will avoid damage, much worse then your 2 in 5 for spells.

At 60% hit rate, the caster is still pretty favored, and that's assuming they're at a base spell power. While I'm not wholly opposed to rethinking how spells hit and miss simply because I see no reason not to operate it the same as a strike / dodge with a different bonus feeding it on both ends, but you can't just blindly go "a handful of spells miss 40% of the time, so all casters get +4 to Spell Power.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:45 pm

Cinos wrote:So Glistam, are you then also for missed melee and/or ranged attacks to do partial damage? You miss a great deal more of the time then you do with spells, since generally the target with have a relatively equal bonus so about 1 in 2 people will avoid damage, much worse then your 2 in 5 for spells.

At 60% hit rate, the caster is still pretty favored, and that's assuming they're at a base spell power. While I'm not wholly opposed to rethinking how spells hit and miss simply because I see no reason not to operate it the same as a strike / dodge with a different bonus feeding it on both ends, but you can't just blindly go "a handful of spells miss 40% of the time, so all casters get +4 to Spell Power.

That's an interesting proposal. I do really like the idea that someone trying to resist a spell would have to use up an attack, as if it were a "dodge." I think I could better justify having a mage expend 50 P.P.E. to cast a spell on an enemy if, worst case scenario, when they try to resist the effect it at least still costs them an attack to have succeeded.

Thanks, I like that approach. I'm not sure it's the right one, but it is an interesting way to address my issue.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:23 pm

eliakon wrote:
MADMANMIKE wrote:
Spoiler:
flatline wrote:Because of OCC and Racial bonuses to save vs magic IN ADDITION to any bonus from high PE.

--flatline

Uhm, no.

Classes in Palladium Fantasy (I'm just going by the main book here as it clearly supports my point)

CLERGY:
Priest of Light & Priest of Darkness
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running, both unlikely for the class)
Warrior Monk
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4
Druid
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 2, 6, 10 & 14 (max of +4)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4 (assuming they take Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running, again unlikely for the class)

MEN OF ARMS
Mercenary Warrior
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Soldier
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4 (assuming they take Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running)
Long Bowman
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Knight
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Palladin
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +4 (assuming they take Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running)
Ranger
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Thief
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +3 (assuming they take Acrobatics, Tumbling and Running)
Assassin
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +5 (assuming they take Acrobatics, Gymnastics, Tumbling and Running)

OPTIONAL
Merchant
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Noble
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Scholar
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Squire
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Vagabond/Peasant or Farmer
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)

PRACTITIONERS OF MAGIC
Wizard
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 3, 6, 9, 12 & 15 (MAX total +5)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Warlock
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Witch
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. (unless they take the Gift of Union, then +6), Save vs. Magic +2 for Gift of Power OR +1 for Gift of Magic, OR +4 against Illusionary ONLY for Gift of Union
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Diabolist
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 2,5, 10 & 15 (MAX total +4)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Summoner
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E., Save vs. Magic +1 at levels 4, 8 & 12 (total +3)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)

PSYCHIC CHARACTER CLASSES
Psychic Sensitive
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +3)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Psi-Healer
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +4)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Psi-Mystic
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +2)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)
Mind Mage
•No O.C.C. bonus to P.E. or Save vs. Magic (except Charms, +6)
•Max skill bonus to P.E. = +2 (assuming they take Tumbling and Running)

And RACES
Humans
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Elves
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Dwarves
P.E. 4D6 straight, +1 to save vs. magic
Gnomes
P.E. 3D6+6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Troglodytes
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Kobolds
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Goblins
P.E. 3D6, +1 to save vs. FAERIE magic only
Hob-Goblins
P.E. 3D6, +1 to save vs. FAERIE magic only
Orcs
P.E. 3D6+2 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Ogres
P.E. 3D6+6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Trolls
P.E. 3D6+6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic
Changeling
P.E. 2D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Wolfen
P.E. 3D6, no bonus to save vs. magic
Coyles
P.E. 3D6 straight, no bonus to save vs. magic

So, a Changeling's Max P.E. is 21, meaning it would have to be a 12th level Wizard or a 15th level Diabolist to get a +7 to save vs. Magic; an Orcs Max P.E. is 20, meaning it can only get a +7 to save vs. magic by being a Witch with the Gift of Union (and taking both available physical skills).

Again those are the maximum possible rolls for Changeling and Orc.

Dwarves get a 4D6, with an average of 12-13 for a base P.E.

Gnomes, Trolls and Ogres get a 3D6+6, giving an average of 16-17.

All other races have 3D6 getting an average base P.E. of 10-11.

So for everbody to have a bonus of +7 or 8 to save vs. Magic is not possible. At least not by the rules, and if you aren't generating your characters by the rules, how can you be upset that the rules don't give a high enough spell strength?

Even min-maxing it's unlikely for everybody to have that high a bonus..

Epic Post in spoiler for length...
Though I guess you could have a +1 (or even +2) if you buy a protective item from an Alchemist (of course the costs here are pretty steep.....)
But yeah.....in PF, by the rules, its hard to rack up the monster saves.

The monster save vs magic thing in my experience tends to be more of a rifts issue than an PFRPG issue. The PFRPG has less stacking of skills and crazy augmentations that allows those things to inflate to nasty levels you can see in rifts with some of the weirder combos. Even in rifts though that kind of save vs magic is not on everybody or even a majority its just that you do bump into it more frequently.

Edit

In a lot of cases wizards and spell users just need to be aware of their targets and use spells appropriately. Some spells like call lightning have no resists and do not miss. Other spells may do more damage but this spell if cast will always strike and do its damage. Other spells can have more debilitating effects but then you risk it being saved against. So using the right spells on the right targets matters most spell casters will have enough variety in their arsenal that they will always have some viable options.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:29 pm

One point I forgot to make is a lot of the spells that have saving throws are also area of effect spells. While they have a 2/5 chance of not working on one particular target when used in a fight there is a high chance they are effecting at least some of your opponents per cast.

victor15065 · Unread post by **victor15065** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:54 pm

Just had a thought mabey add PPE to add to the save

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:55 pm

victor15065 wrote:Just had a thought mabey add PPE to add to the save

I have house rules to allow all sorts of things like that if your level as a caster is greater than or equal to the spell level.

Keeps things interesting.

--flatline

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:59 pm

victor15065 wrote:Just had a thought mabey add PPE to add to the save

If your interested in this there is a pretty interesting set of focus skills in Rifter #30, that allow mages to spend extra PPE to boost their spells in all sorts of ways. Combined with the Magic Proficiency rules from Nightbane you can get some pretty unique specialized mages that are really nasty in their area of expertise....of course that's assuming that you WANT to buff mages up to be even more scary than they currently are....

the ancient gamer · Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:41 pm

I don't do the 2nd edition rules, and never will. But the save vs. magic bonus for P.E. should be discarded, out of hand, for either edition.

kiralon · Unread post by **kiralon** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:27 am

the ancient gamer wrote:I don't do the 2nd edition rules, and never will. But the save vs. magic bonus for P.E. should be discarded, out of hand, for either edition.

First edition for the win.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:38 am

victor15065 wrote:Just had a thought mabey add PPE to add to the save

Maybe something like with Mind Bolt, spend 10 PPE to add +4 to the Spell Strength?

Or maybe something like Block Breaker in Between the Shadows.

drewkitty ~..~ · Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:43 am

flatline wrote:Don't dedicated casters get spell strength bonuses at higher levels?

Or did you mean something different when you said "high level games"?

--flatline

Generally speaking, unless there are other bonuses involved the invocation spell str tops out at 16 and ritual spell str depending how the rules are interpreted they ether top out at 20 or they never change from 16.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:47 am

House Rule by Memnoc. (I swore mages suck)

First. Spells function like psionics. One per action.

Second. Within one mile of a leyline all victims are at -4 to save vs magic (most of my characters have at least +10vs magic)
On a Nexus -8 to save and failed saves have triple duration.

kiralon · Unread post by **kiralon** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:46 am

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Generally speaking, unless there are other bonuses involved the invocation spell str tops out at 16 and ritual spell str depending how the rules are interpreted they ether top out at 20 or they never change from 16.

17 or 21 for a wizard as at level 15 wizard its +5 to spell strength, or 18 for a warlock (+4 from high level warlock +2 from elemental stone of power from western empire book)

Library Ogre · Unread post by **Library Ogre** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:23 am

victor15065 wrote:Dose anyone else think spell strength is to low in high level games?

Generally, no, I don't. There's a few reasons for this.

One is that many spells simply don't have saves, or the save is irrelevant. A high level wizard can be tossing fireballs, lightning bolts, and any number of other spells that don't have a traditional save v. spells. One of the most powerful (some may say broken) spells in the game is Carpet of Adhesion, which HAS a save, but it cuts the duration from minutes to melees, which is still a sizable amount of time.

The spells that DO have saves? They are, themselves, pretty powerful. Charms, Slumber spells, offensive transformations... all are pretty nasty, and keeping the save at 55% failure (i.e. "If you roll between a 1 and an 11, you fail") is pretty rough... even with bonuses adjusting it for PCs and some races.

It's part of the "whiff punishment" wizards get. Their powers are great, but the opportunity cost alone for failing with their powers (lost PPE, lost actions) means they have to be careful about how they apply them.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:30 pm

Kind of liking the idea of one's spell strength bonus increasing on a nexus the same way damage does. +2 to spell strength (14) becoming +6 (18) if damage is x3 or something. Cool house rule. No benefit for the +0 strength 12 guys tho. They don't know how to harness the power!

The Dark Elf · Unread post by **The Dark Elf** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:20 am

I dont think theyre too low although perhaps more spell strength when levelling might be a nice application for casters.

In general, when looking at rules like this I contemplate one simple logic- if I can do it, so can my enemies.
So if Im annoyed that my enemies keep saving against my spells, do I also feel that I should be put to sleep (& potentially murdered) by low level wizards more? The answer should be "yes"....

drewkitty ~..~ · Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:33 am

kiralon wrote:snip....
or 18 for a warlock (+4 from high level warlock +2 from elemental stone of power from western empire book)

So you mean that Warlock top out at spell str.16. And then there is a 'I can get a +2 boost to spell str. from an object if I can get one' bonus.

Yes, I was speaking in generalities not specifics.
-----------------------------------------------------
As for the saving throws being low, yes I am of that opinion. However, I would just raise the base target numbers by +2. I would do so across the settings to Un-Nerf the magic since KS have been putting more and more restrictions on magic so his pet technological baddies can't be defeated.

kiralon · Unread post by **kiralon** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:38 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
kiralon wrote:snip....
or 18 for a warlock (+4 from high level warlock +2 from elemental stone of power from western empire book)

So you mean that Warlock top out at spell str.16. And then there is a 'I can get a +2 boost to spell str. from an object if I can get one' bonus.

snip [quote]
Looked like you were talking about wizard magic as warlocks don't do ritual magic, I just added warlockery (and the item as plus to spell strength items are rare) to show the difference, my mistake and apologies if I'm wrong.

the ancient gamer · Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:26 pm

kiralon wrote:First edition for the win.

Represent.

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:35 pm

Anyone ever thought to add spell strength to a spell based on the spell's ppe cost? I mean, little 1 ppe spell, ouch; but 1500 ppe spell, brace the nervous system.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:46 pm

SittingBull wrote:Anyone ever thought to add spell strength to a spell based on the spell's ppe cost? I mean, little 1 ppe spell, ouch; but 1500 ppe spell, brace the nervous system.

Many GMs that I've played with let you pay extra PPE to enhance the spell being cast. Possible enhancements included (but was not limited to) bonus to spell strength, extra range, extra duration, extra damage, and area effect. As your level went up, the amount of PPE required became cheaper, so high level mages were way more scary than low level mages.

kiralon · Unread post by **kiralon** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:35 am

Make high IQ good for a wizard and give a spell strength bonus like PP gets to strike, or do as I did and make a new stat called willpower that does the same and use it for plusses to save vs magic as well rather then PE.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:18 pm

The problem I have found with allowing boosts to spell strength is that it takes an already insanely powerful class of characters (magic users) and makes them even more powerful. The only time I have ever been tempted to get involved in the SS/SvM arms race was when I ran a very high power game. The average player had +5 saves and they went up quickly (As I recall the best save vs magic was in the neighborhood of +23. Which was amusing because he still failed all three critical saves when everything was on the line.....).
The issue with simply increasing SS in some manner is that it simply increases the arms race. If you make the mages more powerful, now the non-mages will simply have to stock up even more bonuses to stay safe. That will mean the average protection goes up.....and now your back to the same level of saves passed but just with a higher SS.

To be perfectly honest though......I don't shed a single tear for the mage and his high spell save foes. And I play mages as a matter of preference. The reason is that I fully realize just how insanely powerful those spells I am tossing around are. This is not some 4d6+4 attack, please roll a parry. You don't get to save against those (and they often do way more damage than our groups warriors weapons can ever hope to do). No these are fare more likely than not to be "Thou Art Dead" type magics. Sleep, Curses, Mind Control......stuff where if the person fails their save then the fight is over. As such I don't mind that out of the gate I have a 55% of success. If the person gets a whopping +4 save then I am down to 35%....so one third of the time I can simply end the fight regardless of their weaponry, their skill, how many hit points they have..........Do I really need to be more likely to wipe out stuff?

As I said before in the few times I have tinkered with this I have either allowed the Rifter/Nightbane proficiency system to be used, or I allowed my custom 'spell breaker' skill to lower the bonuses with out increasing the SS. (this has worked best in my opinion....so that the people with no bonuses are not being penalized.......If you boost SS by 4 suddenly its now 75% success rate for spells......)

kiralon · Unread post by **kiralon** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:35 pm

eliakon wrote:The problem I have found with allowing boosts to spell strength is that it takes an already insanely powerful class of characters (magic users) and makes them even more powerful. The only time I have ever been tempted to get involved in the SS/SvM arms race was when I ran a very high power game. The average player had +5 saves and they went up quickly (As I recall the best save vs magic was in the neighborhood of +23. Which was amusing because he still failed all three critical saves when everything was on the line.....).
snip

I also have a bunch of other rules like none of the magic using classes are immune to their own magic (if you put a guy to sleep with cloud of slumber and you want to kill him go in, see if you fall asleep, this has happened to whole parties and they have awoken at the same time as the people they were fighting). If you put up a wall of fire and stand in it, you burn. If someone is in hand to hand with the wizard he can interfere with the spell casting of the wizard and I have perks that help boost magic power and magic defense, but generally because of the minimum amount of attacks the mage gets with magic, if the spell doesn't down the fighter the fighter pulls him apart like pizza, with gooey bits stretching out and then dropping on the floor(I have never seen a wizard cast 12 spells in a round, but have seen fighters do 16). Oh yeah, no sdc for things without an exoskeleton or special creatures, only HP) Longbowman gank wizards, often from further away then the wizard can effect them.