The Coalition States are not the bad guy

[eliakon]

This one way street you guys are arguing for is a magical place of moral righteousness...

No one has right to a land other than what they can enforce.

RUE page 290. The Alignment section. BOTH good alignments are prohibited from taking 'dirty money' (which is explicitly listed as taking the property of evil doers)
Though I guess technically a scrupulous person can steal from bad guys so it might be possible.
This pretty clearly demonstrates that the palladium universe does consider there to be property rights that exist beyond force. Otherwise stealing would not be a moral issue.

[eliakon]

An interesting side note......
Since the only alignments that are allowed to deliberately kill an innocent are (possibly) Miscreant Evil and Diabolic Evil that sets a boundary threshold for any polity who has as a stated outcome the murder of innocent......

[Alrik Vas]

So is fighting the CS immoral, then? War at it's very basis is. Living beings, I believe, do have an obligation to defend themselves, but is killing the enemy moral?

[eliakon]

So is fighting the CS immoral, then? War at it's very basis is. Living beings, I believe, do have an obligation to defend themselves, but is killing the enemy moral?

No fighting a war is not immoral. Deliberately trying to kill innocents though is. Unless you offer a good reason for why we should consider the CS to be 'an innocent' then its probably fair game......

[Killer Cyborg]

This one way street you guys are arguing for is a magical place of moral righteousness...

No one has right to a land other than what they can enforce.

Back in the day, nobody respected your "right" to land unless you conquered and held it by force anyway.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sure, the act of displacing people is immoral. Yeah. They were living there, doing what they can...Then uncle Skullhead comes along and chases them off, or outright annihilates them. That's immoral. No argument.

I'm not saying the CS is the good guy. Never really have. Not saying Karl Prosek and his lackies aren't evil. Never really have.

What I AM saying (again) is that living on land doesn't give you right to it, so that shouldn't be a part of our conversation. It isn't a factor in the Coalition's evil. The only thing, even when a government "gives" you land that makes it yours, is your ability to hold it when challenged (whether legally by law of the land, or through force of arms).

Should the CS stop displacing and murdering innocent beings? Absolutely. That would be the moral choice. They won't, however, as it conflicts with their goals. When their goals change, things might be different and they'll look back on this chapter of their history with shame, but continue on regardless.

How could one living on the land particular for generations NOT give them a right to it? What could possibly give one the right to it if that doesn't?

Good questions.
But some people still think that the land the US is doesn't "rightfully" belong to us, and the whole West Bank thing is still a deal.

Heck by that argument those D-bees attacking the CS and trying to take their land have every right to do so because the CS has NO right to the land either if living somewhere for generations gives you no right to the land meaning no one has any right to anything going by that logic.

Not really, since the claim is that the CS essentially have the original deed to the land, and the D-Bees are essentially squatters.
Some laws give squatters rights to the land after a while, some laws don't.
IF somebody lives on your land for a long time before you get around to evicting them, does that land really belong to them?

[Alrik Vas]

So is fighting the CS immoral, then? War at it's very basis is. Living beings, I believe, do have an obligation to defend themselves, but is killing the enemy moral?

No fighting a war is not immoral. Deliberately trying to kill innocents though is. Unless you offer a good reason for why we should consider the CS to be 'an innocent' then its probably fair game......

Uhhhh...

What?

There's nothing moral about killing, or war. Fair game? That's laughable. "I'm just shooting, if the enemy happens to be in the way, it's their own fault."

[Killer Cyborg]

So is fighting the CS immoral, then? War at it's very basis is. Living beings, I believe, do have an obligation to defend themselves, but is killing the enemy moral?

No fighting a war is not immoral. Deliberately trying to kill innocents though is. Unless you offer a good reason for why we should consider the CS to be 'an innocent' then its probably fair game......

Why should anybody else be considered "an innocent?"

[eliakon]

So is fighting the CS immoral, then? War at it's very basis is. Living beings, I believe, do have an obligation to defend themselves, but is killing the enemy moral?

No fighting a war is not immoral. Deliberately trying to kill innocents though is. Unless you offer a good reason for why we should consider the CS to be 'an innocent' then its probably fair game......

Uhhhh...

What?

There's nothing moral about killing, or war. Fair game? That's laughable. "I'm just shooting, if the enemy happens to be in the way, it's their own fault."

I am not arguing some random personal real world philosophy though. If you want to do that you can go to Sound Off.
In THIS thread we are talking about the Palladium Game Universe. And in that one there are things like Good and Evil. Innocents and Morals. And thus in this thread those discrete rules considerations would apply to a discussion of how to consider something that exists in that universe. *shrugs*

[Killer Cyborg]

So is fighting the CS immoral, then? War at it's very basis is. Living beings, I believe, do have an obligation to defend themselves, but is killing the enemy moral?

No fighting a war is not immoral. Deliberately trying to kill innocents though is. Unless you offer a good reason for why we should consider the CS to be 'an innocent' then its probably fair game......

Uhhhh...

What?

There's nothing moral about killing, or war. Fair game? That's laughable. "I'm just shooting, if the enemy happens to be in the way, it's their own fault."

I am not arguing some random personal real world philosophy though. If you want to do that you can go to Sound Off.
In THIS thread we are talking about the Palladium Game Universe. And in that one there are things like Good and Evil. Innocents and Morals. And thus in this thread those discrete rules considerations would apply to a discussion of how to consider something that exists in that universe. *shrugs*

There are things like Good and Evil.
But that doesn't mean that those concepts apply to anything and everything within the game universe.

[eliakon]

So is fighting the CS immoral, then? War at it's very basis is. Living beings, I believe, do have an obligation to defend themselves, but is killing the enemy moral?

No fighting a war is not immoral. Deliberately trying to kill innocents though is. Unless you offer a good reason for why we should consider the CS to be 'an innocent' then its probably fair game......

Uhhhh...

What?

There's nothing moral about killing, or war. Fair game? That's laughable. "I'm just shooting, if the enemy happens to be in the way, it's their own fault."

I am not arguing some random personal real world philosophy though. If you want to do that you can go to Sound Off.
In THIS thread we are talking about the Palladium Game Universe. And in that one there are things like Good and Evil. Innocents and Morals. And thus in this thread those discrete rules considerations would apply to a discussion of how to consider something that exists in that universe. *shrugs*

There are things like Good and Evil.
But that doesn't mean that those concepts apply to anything and everything within the game universe.

They would apply to any action that falls under their purview.
When the alignment system says "good people can not deliberately murder innocent people" then by definition anyone or anything that deliberately murders innocent people is not good.

[Killer Cyborg]

In THIS thread we are talking about the Palladium Game Universe. And in that one there are things like Good and Evil. Innocents and Morals. And thus in this thread those discrete rules considerations would apply to a discussion of how to consider something that exists in that universe. *shrugs*

There are things like Good and Evil.
But that doesn't mean that those concepts apply to anything and everything within the game universe.

They would apply to any action that falls under their purview.

When the alignment system says "good people can not deliberately murder innocent people" then by definition anyone or anything that deliberately murders innocent people is not good.

The exact quote is that Principled and Scrupulous characters "Never harm an innocent."

So if a rock falls down a mountainside, and it harms an innocent, that means that the rock cannot be of Good alignment, yes?
Unprincipled has the same restriction, so the rock cannot be Unprincipled.
Anarchist can get away with harming an innocent person, especially by accident.
So that rock must be Anarchist or Evil alignment.

[Alrik Vas]

So is fighting the CS immoral, then? War at it's very basis is. Living beings, I believe, do have an obligation to defend themselves, but is killing the enemy moral?

No fighting a war is not immoral. Deliberately trying to kill innocents though is. Unless you offer a good reason for why we should consider the CS to be 'an innocent' then its probably fair game......

Uhhhh...

What?

There's nothing moral about killing, or war. Fair game? That's laughable. "I'm just shooting, if the enemy happens to be in the way, it's their own fault."

I am not arguing some random personal real world philosophy though. If you want to do that you can go to Sound Off.
In THIS thread we are talking about the Palladium Game Universe. And in that one there are things like Good and Evil. Innocents and Morals. And thus in this thread those discrete rules considerations would apply to a discussion of how to consider something that exists in that universe. *shrugs*

Unless there's some kind of track to determine how many bad things you need to do to become evil, how many bad guys you have to kill to be good, or.how many times you have to.kill bad guys for free to not be selfish...It is entirely personal because it requires arbitration..

[Pepsi Jedi]

The CS has no intention of sharing with the various other humans who have as much (if not better) claim to the land. Ask the Native Americans who have been on North America for millennium who has rights to the land.....but the CS says that they need to go....

Hm.
Do you consider the United States of America to be Evil?

At times our policy towards them have been.
The treatment of Native Americans during much of our nations expansion is a dark chapter in our history.

Humans aren't native to North America, they are just another immigrant to North America.

Its really hard to claim that the CS is the 'rightful owner' of the land though and that the D-Bees are simply invaders.....when the CS doesn't have any more right to (and in fact in many cases LESS right to) the land they claim than the D-Bees.
My point is simple. The CS has no moral claim to the North American Continent. They can claim it yes, but they do not have standing as having a pre-existing claim to the land.

Of course they do. They're humans on earth. The Dbees and others came through dimensional rifts and invaded. The CS are the regrown remnants of the humans that possessed the planet prior to the coming of rifts.

Just because DBees have been squatting for 1.. 2... 300 years, doesn't mean it's simply there. The humans never ceeded the land to them. The invasion happened and the CS are repelling Alien invaders.

Their 'moral claim' is to the entire planet, as humans, being the first sentient species on Earth, hold.

Your logic is the sort of thing that lets squatters move into your house while you're on vacation and when you get home the cops say they can't kick them out, due to little vagerys in the law and that you have to go to court to get the squatters out of your own home.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pffft, divine right, handed down by God to the emperor.

CS totally has claim.

But the CS doesn't believe in gods....at least ones they cant kill.......

They still have Christmas...

[Pepsi Jedi]

At times our policy towards them have been.
The treatment of Native Americans during much of our nations expansion is a dark chapter in our history.

Humans aren't native to North America, they are just another immigrant to North America.

Its really hard to claim that the CS is the 'rightful owner' of the land though and that the D-Bees are simply invaders.....when the CS doesn't have any more right to (and in fact in many cases LESS right to) the land they claim than the D-Bees.
My point is simple. The CS has no moral claim to the North American Continent. They can claim it yes, but they do not have standing as having a pre-existing claim to the land.

They have the same claim that started at least half the wars in history: "At some point in the past, this land belonged to our ancestors, therefore it is ours by right."

EXACTLY
Which means that when it is claimed in this thread that the CS is simply taking back what is theirs and that the D-Bees are just invaders taking others land.....that it is not true. Or more accurately it is not True. The CS can claim that it is so sure....but that does not mean that they have the actual True moral right to it, just that they feel entitled. There is a rather large difference.
The first case makes it an actual issue of Good and Evil. The second is just an opinion.

Isn't all "Good vs evil" a matter of opinion?

It's going to be really hard to articulate how humans on earth don't have a right to earth, vs beings from other dimensions that invaded...

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well, you do have to admit that there's a difference between, "This land is claimed by X" and, "Well...guess we'll settle here..."

One is active and seeks order, the other is just rolling with the chaos and seeks no responsibility.

Don't get me wrong, the CS is murdering it's way to gain land for humans, but those in the way don't have to be there, and are rather foolish to stay considering uncle Skullhead's rep.

Not that it's always the settler's fault, but that's the situation.

Not really.....remember the majority of these people were here before the CS went all Evil Empire on people. Blaming people for living in their city is like saying "Well those Russians should have just moved away, its their fault that they got killed by the Nazis".....
Its blaming the victim for the actions of the abuser and then saying that they had the gall to not give their victimizer what they wanted "Gee if they had just given that mugger their money they wouldn't have been shot"....which soon becomes "Well if they hadn't lived in the same town as that known sex offender they wouldn't have been raped".....
This is the fault of the CS and trying to shift the blame to the victims is disingenuous at best.

That's enough words in my mouth, thank you.

Besides, who guarantees rights in Rifts, and who has authority to do so? When it comes down to it, you fight for your claim, or you choose non-violence and flee or submit yourself to the aggressor's mercy. How am I saying the CS is in the right and d-bees should leave and that it's their fault for being there? I pointed out facts in the situation, those being that the CS is murdering their way across NA and that people who stay in the way fight, flee or submit. How is it the victim's fault? How are you getting that I'm saying it's their fault when I literally said, "it isn't always the settler's fault"...?

Pointing out that they can move away doesn't make the CS right, what I AM saying is that things aren't so simple when you built a farm on land an enemy lays claim to, no matter who that enemy is.

The argument that Tolkeen (which as a nation btw existed before the CS was formed....) should move because the CS says that the now own that land is ludicrous.
The argument that a D-Bee villiag that has existed for centuries should move because someone moves in and thinks that they have claim to the land is silly.
And what is sillier is that somehow that not moving means that the aggressor has some sort of moral authority. They don't. At least in Palladium they don't, because in the Palladium universe we can look at what the definition of good and evil are and see where stealing lies......

Tolkeen was a city, that had dimensional beings that had invaded earth. Humans were not saying the lad was 'now' theirs. They were establishing that Earth was -always- theirs.

The Dbee village, even if it's been around for centuries, are still squatting on OUR planet. Your logic is akin to a guy out in Montanna that has 1000s of acres of land, and finds out there's a house off up in the woods some where he doesn't often go, and moves to evict the squatters on his land. That's great if your house has been there for years, but that doesn't make it your land by default. Your'e still tresspassing.

As for the comment about not moving means the aggressor has some sort of moral authority. Noone was saying the aggressor had moral authority because they were the aggressor. ther CS were taking back 'stolen' land. The 'You didn't run so you're dumb' comes from the fact that.... they didn't run and were dumb. Right or wrong, everyone told them they'd get trounced. The other magic nations told Tolkeen straight up "Even if we all united, which would never happen, the CS would -still win-. Your battle is useless, You will fight and die and the CS will not care. You won't win any moral victory, because you'll be dead. Those that don't like the CS won't dislike them more. They already dislike them. It just means you'll be dead. When you CAN run from a losing battle, and don't, you're stupid. There wasn't even any moral reason to fight the battle. Annihilation was assured. More over Tolkeen dove into evil to -try- and survive the battle everyone told them they'd lose. The argument that they 'had to' is what's silly. You don't 'have' to become evil because you're attacked. Tolkeen could have run. Relocated. Hid. They could have chosen to fight, but fight honorably with out devolving into evil. They did none of those. They -chose- instead to fully embrace evil in their attempt to kill the CS. That was the choice they made.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well...If that's it, then, humans were there before d-bees...So the CS has greater claim based on their party line of human supremacy.

Other nations don't claim to be there for humanity's sake, so why would they have a leg to stand on?

As to what system is better? "Its too much trouble to dislodge the foe" usually works pretty better than, "because we say so."

Except that's the point. The CS isn't humanity. And they don't claim to be for humanity They claim that humans are better, but they do not claim to represent humanity. This is especially true since the Humans that were here before the CS are being displaced and killed just as much as the D-bees. And when one adds in the fact that it is incontrovertible that there was magic and other races in earths history (since in universe the various religions myths are in fact true) the idea that one bunch of humans has a better claim than any other bunch of humans is pretty laughable on its face.

.,... but the CS IS humanity (in NA) and they -DO- claim to be there for Humanity and doing such for Humanity. I'm not sure where you get the impression that they don't. It's quite literally in the books that much of what the CS does is for the preservation of the human race and the CS preserves the human race so to preserve one is to preserve the other.

The CS don't just mow down humans for no reason. They haven't nuked Northern Gun. Your hyperbole is just unfounded. As for 'incontrovertible fact' that there was magic on earth, there isn't any such thing. Legends of magic do not equate proof of magic. There's takes of the Hulk going back 53 years. Doesn't mean he actually existed. Superman's been around longer. Just because there are countless stories and tales, books, comics, role playing games, tv, movies, etc, doesn't mean that Aliens exist and have been on our planet for decades.

The Idea that one bunch of humans has a better claim than any other bunch of humans is how we've divided up our planet pretty much from the start. In a 'metaphorical sense' you might be right. In any sort of real world application, property and property rights have existed as far back as one group of humans pointed to their side of a river and said 'mine' and the other side of the river and said 'yours' and was willing to defend their own from the other guy in the jungle.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So...being there first only matters if your claim is a moral one. Got it.

There's nothing moral about claim to land.

This thread is about moral aliment of a nation. People are pointing out that displacing people from the place that they lived for quite some time is a immoral action.

Despite claims by the CS as being champions of humanity they do not claim land for all humans (many of the leadership and people of Tolkeen where humans after all) but for there nation. The nation of the CS never owned the land they took by force and if the D-bees that lived there did not move away because the CS told them to the D-bees faced death.

Not all D-bees are invaders many where pulled to earth through rifts, trapped explores or even born on earth. The claim that all D-bees are inhuman invaders is based on racism not fact.

They're not native to earth, they're not human. They -are- all inhuman invaders, or at the very least, inhuman trespassers on our planet.

How they arrived is of little matter once they're here and refuse to leave.

If a bumb gets drunk and some cop picks him up and drops him off in your back yard, he wakes up, has no idea how he got there, but is there now and sets up camp in your back yard, peeing in your pool and eating from your trash, does that make the back yard his? He doesn't know how he got there. Doesn't know how to get back to where he was, but he finds your back yard pretty snazzy, and if you try and 'force' him to leave, does that make you evil? If you told him to leave, should he have to, just because you told him to?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Where does it imply property rights exist, and that they have moral value?

So you are saying that invading another nation to take its land has no moral value?
I think if nothing else it falls under theft and murder. (or in some cases genocide.)

It's always subjective. As stated repeatedly in this thread, if you invade land held by demons and kill them all you're 'heroes of light and have 'liberated the land'. That genocide in that case is not only allowed but applauded. But if you do it to alien creatures, that arern't 'demonic' it's some how wrong.

I'm sure the demons whom are murdered and irradicated by the 'heroes' don't think they got a fair deal. They were attacked and killed off, or driven off their land.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sure, the act of displacing people is immoral. Yeah. They were living there, doing what they can...Then uncle Skullhead comes along and chases them off, or outright annihilates them. That's immoral. No argument.

I'm not saying the CS is the good guy. Never really have. Not saying Karl Prosek and his lackies aren't evil. Never really have.

What I AM saying (again) is that living on land doesn't give you right to it, so that shouldn't be a part of our conversation. It isn't a factor in the Coalition's evil. The only thing, even when a government "gives" you land that makes it yours, is your ability to hold it when challenged (whether legally by law of the land, or through force of arms).

Should the CS stop displacing and murdering innocent beings? Absolutely. That would be the moral choice. They won't, however, as it conflicts with their goals. When their goals change, things might be different and they'll look back on this chapter of their history with shame, but continue on regardless.

How could one living on the land particular for generations NOT give them a right to it?

Your own argument defeats you. Humans have lived on Earth for 1000s of generations. How does this not give them the right to their own planet?

What could possibly give one the right to it if that doesn't?

Which is the CS argument. "Earth is ours. get out"

Heck by that argument those D-bees attacking the CS and trying to take their land have every right to do so because the CS has NO right to the land either if living somewhere for generations gives you no right to the land meaning no one has any right to anything going by that logic.

Humans have lived on Earth, uninterrupted, from when they evolved from apes. Any Dimensional being at best has 300 years of squatting on our planet.

Since that's clearly ridiculous you certainly do have a right to the land you've been living on

So you go on vacation. Someone moves into your house and changes the locks, and they certinly have the right to your house because they've been living in it? Strange sense of right you see there.

and someone insisting it belongs to them because 'well you aren't one of us so that means it belongs to us not you' is clearly a thief and if he kills you a murderer and if you've got a nation that believes that then THEY are thieves and murderers as well.

You do understand -every nation that has ever existed- operates under that logic. Right? They claim land and defend it by force of arms. You're acting like it's crazy but that's the only way land has ever been claimed and then defended.

[Pepsi Jedi]

An interesting side note......
Since the only alignments that are allowed to deliberately kill an innocent are (possibly) Miscreant Evil and Diabolic Evil that sets a boundary threshold for any polity who has as a stated outcome the murder of innocent......

Only when the definition of 'innocent' is ironclad. Sadly it's not. Any dbee, by definition is a being from another dimension on our planet, either invading, or trespassing. Law redialy allows one to shoot tress passers upon their land. Earth is the "Humans" planet, so ANY other dimensional beings are at the very best, trespassing, or at worst invading.

So by the letter of the law, they are not innocent. (Ignorance of a law does not preclude or protect you of it).

[Pepsi Jedi]

So is fighting the CS immoral, then? War at it's very basis is. Living beings, I believe, do have an obligation to defend themselves, but is killing the enemy moral?

Depends on whom you talk to and often 'when' you talk to them too.

Christians for example, are often quick to quote 'Thou shall not kill', as a means for defining morality. But the translation doesn't actually say 'Thou shall not kill'. Any linguistics scholar that knows, will tell you that the rule is 'Thou shall not -murder-'. That 'Kill' and 'murder' are very different words. They cannot be mistaken for one another any more than someone would mistake 'Princess" and "Tatertot" or "Sunshine" and "Tunafish". Even the bible allows for killing and war. While it forbids the act of "Murder".

Heck if you follow all the rules in the book, by which many judge modern morality, you are required to kill your own daughter for minor infraction and people are to be put to death for working on the sabbath.

Morality is always subjective, as it's a 'creation' of the imagination solidified into 'law' by humankind to help prolong our collective existence. It's not inborn nor native to the species and must be learned.

[Alrik Vas]

See, Pepsi, I agree more or less with what you're saying. Eliakon's argument is that morality isn't subjective in Rifts on account of the alignment system.

[flatline]

See, Pepsi, I agree more or less with what you're saying. Eliakon's argument is that morality isn't subjective in Rifts on account of the alignment system.

Pragmatism is evil according to the Palladium alignment system.

Go figure.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

Pragmatism is evil according to the Palladium alignment system.

Go figure.

--flatline

[Tor]

Note that 'take you as a servant' often means 'slave' and slaves often die under them.

True, I'm not talking about those ones

their ways, given a choice on their part, usually are very negative for the humans

Usually, yes. But do the demons who don't do this stuff deserve a kill-on-sight just because a lot of their species do this?

If so, what of the Vanguard Brawler?

If a being is 'almost certainly' going to, then it's not completely out of the question, especially if there is a very large body of evidence backing that almost-certainty.

The certainness felt by many in the CS regarding mages or supernaturals they execute may equal that which others feel solely for demons.

the CS is not doing any due diligence in actually confirming whether their way is true, and even has mages right on their doorstep who don't try and kill them.

The CS spares some diligence but a shortage of time and resources may limit how much research they can put in. They have other priorities. When more humans are safer there may be more time and manpower available to be a bit gentler figuring out which spellcasters and aliens are bad guys. At present: it's probably the ones giving the CS lots of space and not interfering with them, in their view. It's entirely possible the Dwarven TWs in Cordoba could receive such a consideration in the future.

Dweomer has demons on its doorstep who don't try and kill them. Wouldn't this serve as equal proof against anti-demon biases that many warriors of light take?

The least-fighty demons still leave body counts in their wake, and, importantly, aren't going to be convinced not to do so.

Alu are described as not liking confrontations. Although assassination is one alternative to battling, they also like doing spying or instigation, neither of which are necessarily going to lead to violence. Most are honorable.

Banshee, though miscreant, at worst will just try to affect your emotions so that something dies, and they need death to feed to stay alive, so it's hard to hate on them for it (like hating a tiger who eats a gazelle). There's plenty of violence on its own for them to get by without interference.

Couril, though evil, love flowers, birds, silver and instrumental music. The do things like work recon or treasure retrieval.

Ghouls, sure they're evil, but they just wanna eat corpses, nobody's using them anymore, where's the harm? They'll attack the living if they need to, but it's not really necessary if we'd just stop burying our dead. They mostly attack if ordered to by a Lord, cause they're afraid, victims.

Shedim can be anarchist, they could find some non-evil obbies.

Baalrog: 1 in 10 are selfish, they may just want to do some recon and intelligence gathering. They might go establish their own kingdom and be decent with it. They are capable of healing people they rule over, stopping undead armies, removing evil spirits or curses from people. Plenty of non-evil potental here.

Gallu: 1 in 50 are unprincipled, "basically, good"

Jinn are victims of slavery (1 in 5 selfish), who can blame them for being jaded? Especially the air ones.

Raksasha: 3 out of 20 are merely selfish. They just want power, lots of people want that but don't sink to evil to do it. Highly capable psionic healers who can help protect people with circles, diabolism or wizardry.

1 in 20 Deevils/Devilkins are merely selfish, 1 in 5 are honorable, both know healing magic. Devilkins don't wanna kill you, just provoke you into decadence, maybe with a touch of despair to thicken the soul.

Gorgons per DB11 wanna get it on! Nothing wrong with that. Sure they might get you stoned to keep you hard but they can stone2flesh when it's all over, and like the Baalrog they know how to get evil spirits out of people, that's helpful.

Imps want to get shinies, pig out, get drunk, do perverte stuff, engage in michief and excess. Half are selfish, a tenth are honorable, and I think only the diabolic/miscreant ones are going to bother with stuff like torture. These cute guys brighten up rooms.

Arch Fiends are 1/4 selfish while normal Fiends are 1/5 selfish. They know how to heal people. Sure they feed on PPE, but do they need to, or is it just a hobby of the evil ones?

Serpents are 1/4 honorable, 1 in 20 being selfish. Sure they like to manipulate, plot and tempt people, nothing inherently wrong there. Sometimes blackmail or terrorism, or fighting for fun, but that trend could have exceptions. If they beat you up, they can opt to heal you after.

Beasts are 1/5 selfish, 1/2 honorable, can get rid of evil spirits controlling people, heal people. Sure they love to fight (perhaps they would enjoy a sporting boxing or wrestling match) and strategy (chess, anyone?) but they need not serve evil. Like Balrog, they sometimes just name themselves king and go protect a kingdom of their own on other worlds.

I also don't think that a society that embraces psionics as much as the Coalition does would remain independent of psionic control or extreme influence, so I run the elites of Coalition Society, including the Proseks, as being Master Psychics of one flavor or another, usually Mind Melters

If I were to make the Proseks anything, it'd be a family of Nega-Psychics, to explain the anti-magic views and why nobody would know they were psychics (is there even a way to tell if someone is a Nega-Psychic with them being closed off, aside from closed offedness being evidence of something, to those willing to cross boundaries?)

there was a good couple of hundred years where entire classes of people were enslaved, killed, or abused based on their ethnicity, and I have a hard time coming up with anything better than "evil" to describe that.

Was there? I was under the impression that there were freed slaves who could not be re-enslaved. If you could be enslaved purely based on your ethnicity, wouldn't freeing a slave be a pointless gesture because then someone else could just come along and re-enslave them?

Also: was it actually illegal to own white slaves? Or did this just not happen as much because slave-taking happened most often in Africa where there was no large established nation to offend in the act, and they would kidnap their own people to trade for western products?

At the time they did. In fact it was doing gods work to do such.

Wasn't there some kind of "we're teaching christianity to the pagans" and "they will benefit from observing our civilization" type of narrative going on? Makes me wonder if the CS might take this attitude towards D-Bees in other respects (ie teaching them the dangers of magic and literacy)

[Alrik Vas]

Tor, that would be hilarious. CS missionaries going into the wild, untamed hellscape (Lazlo) to teach the heathens a true and pure way.

I actually wouldn't doubt there are "well meaning" CS citizens who would take that as a just cause.

[Tor]

Places like Lazlo are more cemented evil, those good citizens are more likely doing their duty on the small towns in the expanse between the CS and magical cities.

the CS doesn't believe in gods....at least ones they cant kill.......

CWCp13 has Erin Tarn end with "God help us all", I couldn't find that in Karl's speech but it makes me wonder if I'm forgetting something. Anyone remember if he made any other speeches to mine?
CWCp186 mentions "Cavanaugh mentally thanked god", showing theism of some sort exists even in a NTSET officer in Chi-Town.
SoT5p54 mentions that Vosberg being "god-fearing people" is part of why they can't fathom the CS would hurt them.
SoT5p103 has Drogue use the phrase "god damned" and then mention Christmas, though the CS might celebrate a secular version of that.
Sot5p104 has Sgt. Canton say "God Damn" as well. It's possible that the CS version of this phrase's etymology (assuming they could not stamp it out) was reinterpreted as some kind of "X, damn the gods" rather than "gods, please damn X" though.

The argument that Tolkeen (which as a nation btw existed before the CS was formed....) should move because the CS says that the now own that land is ludicrous.

1) what year was Tolkeen the nation formed, as opposed to Tolkeen the city? Gets a bit fuzzy to me since a 'kingdom' may be a king ruling over a city or a kingdom ruling over a nation.

2) I don't think it's a matter of the CS merely saying they own the land, but that Tolkeen was militarizing and suspect in terrorist activity, both the resurrection of Old Chicago and the assassination of Joseph Prosek. They were not regulating magic as Chi-Town requested that the Great City did. Leaving was not enough, they should have stopped summoning supernatural creatures, and they wouldn't. Instead, they let dragons build a city under their nose. The CS was kicking out shape-shifters and supernatural beings (fully capable of teleporting to less instructive pastures) even before the Federation attacked. Tolkeen should've known better.

The argument that a D-Bee villiag that has existed for centuries should move because someone moves in and thinks that they have claim to the land is silly.

Tolkeen threatened CS troops in Minnesota when they were investigating Joseph the First's assassination in Minnesota, even though the CS did not attack Tolkeen itself. The CS backed off but Tolkeen kept militarizing. It was a threatning move.

in the Palladium universe we can look at what the definition of good and evil are and see where stealing lies......

The concept of stealing relies first on establishing who the owner is, which is a fuzzy pickle. Humans had the land, then D-Bees came and started occupying it. Sure, the D-Bees have been there a while, but some humans still believe they have an ancestral claim. The Israel/Palestine thing is a lot of this, and there's not a clear answer, as ownership itself is artificial and based on, if you trace back far enough, people just walking into places and grabbing it.

Can theft even exist if ownership doesn't? Palladium needs to define the metaphysical idea of ownership (would also help with that temporal spell) before we force alignment changes based on appropriating goods.

The CS isn't humanity. And they don't claim to be for humanity

So what exactly is the "Crusade for Humanity" military campaign, if not Karl claiming to be for humanity?

CWCp9 "we will not allow the destruction of human civilization" .. "This is my promise to humankind" .. "humankind's place in the world" .. "peace and prosperity for all humankind"

CWCp11 "to protect our human neighbours" CWCp12 "for the good of our nation... and all of humankind"

They claim that humans are better, but they do not claim to represent humanity.

CWCp11 "to defy the Coalition States is to spit in the face of humanity"

Maybe not 'all humanity' (Karl acknowledges neighbours, distinguish the CS nation from humankind) but even if they do not 100% represent it, they are among its representatives, and as protectors, an offense to humanity's protectors is an offense to humanity.

the Humans that were here before the CS are being displaced and killed just as much as the D-bees.

Who're you talking about, the sorcerers, or their thralls?

Non-mage humans living in Tolkeen were warned to evacuate, and if they had done so, they could've eventually came back once the CS settled the area.

when one adds in the fact that it is incontrovertible that there was magic and other races in earths history (since in universe the various religions myths are in fact true) the idea that one bunch of humans has a better claim than any other bunch of humans is pretty laughable on its face.

The CS isn't claiming they own the entire earth, just that humanity owns the earth and that they are agents in this reclamation. Karl wouldn't be encouraging the protection of neighbours if the CS message was 'screw the neighbours'.

Despite claims by the CS as being champions of humanity they do not claim land for all humans (many of the leadership and people of Tolkeen where humans after all) but for there nation.

Their personal claims are CS ones, yes, but they do help secure allies' claims as well. That's what the CS was to begin with, Chi-Town helped to secure Iron Heart's claims, then Free Quebec, then not so much Quebec when they wanted to ignore chain of command and be sitting ducks for wizards.

The nation of the CS never owned the land they took by force and if the D-bees that lived there did not move away because the CS told them to the D-bees faced death.

The CS is composed of humans descended from those who have lived throughout north america. Who's to say that the sorcerers who ruled the Federation of Magic (which Tolkeen was once part of) didn't displace non-mage human farmers at the start?

Not all D-bees are invaders many where pulled to earth through rifts, trapped explores or even born on earth. The claim that all D-bees are inhuman invaders is based on racism not fact.

I'd say most of the Xiticix alive on Rifts Earth right now were also born here. They're still invading human lands. Same with D-Bees.

If D-Bees were willing to bow to human sovereignty I don't think this problem would exist. But they are prideful and want to own lands, hold authority equal to or possibly over humans.

the act of displacing people is immoral. Yeah. They were living there, doing what they can...Then uncle Skullhead comes along and chases them off, or outright annihilates them. That's immoral. No argument.

I'd argue with that, if the people you were displacing had displaced others' claims to begin with. Or if they were militarizing and their people had assaulted you before.

Tolkeen broke from the Federation of Magic in the early days of the Great City's assault on Chi-Town the same way The Three of Dweomer broke from the assault in the later days. It was a smart move. But I don't take that as a sign of goodness, just tactics.

Where does it imply property rights exist, and that they have moral value?

Come to think of it, while principled 'never break the law unless conditions are desperate' and scrupulous 'bend and occasionally break when deemed necessary', theft being forbidden does not seem like an absolute rule, but rather, it seems like something condition on theft being illegal.

So if the CS laws say it is not theft to conquer Tolkeen, there's no violation of a 'never break the law' thing, so a Principled CS soldier can steal whatever he wants from Tolkeen.

So you are saying that invading another nation to take its land has no moral value? I think if nothing else it falls under theft and murder.

Invading another nation doesn't require murder. Alignment seems more restrictive against murder than it does against theft.

If we look at principled: you can't attack an unarmed foe (but 'armed' is flexible so it's pretty meaningless) and you can't kill for pleasure. Nothing wrong with trying to take a guy's stuff (though legal government-approved procedures) and shooting him if he tries to hurt you to stop you from taking his stuff, because then you're just defending yourself.

How could one living on the land particular for generations NOT give them a right to it? What could possibly give one the right to it if that doesn't?

The Splugorth will be happy to hear this. It might upset the True Atlanteans a bit to hear it though.

Lazlo are awful people, engaging in genocide against the Xiticix who have been living in Canada for generations and have a right to that land.

I feel bad for the zombies in Dead Reign and the vamps in Vampire Kingdoms. Sure, they've been occupying the land for years, but undead aren't technically 'living' there so we can't recognize their rights. I think the bugs in Systems Failure are alive though, so props to them, humans should shove off, bugs have invaded long enough to be rightful occupants.

Lucky for the CS, if they just occupy the ruins of Tolkeen for a couple periods of childbirth, anyone who tries to kick them out will be the bad guys.

Heck by that argument those D-bees attacking the CS and trying to take their land have every right to do so because the CS has NO right to the land either if living somewhere for generations gives you no right to the land meaning no one has any right to anything going by that logic.

Perhaps it is a question of quantity. Humanity has occupied North America for centuries, D-Bees for decades.

RUE page 290. The Alignment section. BOTH good alignments are prohibited from taking 'dirty money'

Huh, seems like alignment metaphysics work differently in RUE than in RMB. Wasn't any problem with dirty money or ill-gotten goods before. Seems to be HU-inherited weirdness.

An interesting side note......Since the only alignments that are allowed to deliberately kill an innocent are (possibly) Miscreant Evil and Diabolic Evil that sets a boundary threshold for any polity who has as a stated outcome the murder of innocent......

Innocent of what though? Innocent of impeding upon CS territories? Innocent of eating human food, of breathing human air?

Deliberately trying to kill innocents though is.

The CS do not deliberately try to kill innocents, they merely tolerate it as acceptable losses in trying to wipe out the mostly-aggressive alien invaders.

Totally passive D-Bees can surrender and may be taken on as slaves, escaping death. Or if there is no CS available to surrender to, go live elsewhere, and move on again if the CS grows near.

Unless you offer a good reason for why we should consider the CS to be 'an innocent' then its probably fair game......

Innocence is hard enough to evaluate on a personal level, I don't think we should consider applying it to nations. Even Psyscape has evil people in it.

When the alignment system says "good people can not deliberately murder innocent people" then by definition anyone or anything that deliberately murders innocent people is not good.

Even if the books describe the CS as murdering an innocent person (I'm sure that's come up at some point), for them to be deliberately murdering someone innocent, wouldn't they have to know that the person is innocent?

Are we told anywhere that the CS believes the people they killed were innocent?

I'm thinking of a cop mistaking a squirt/BB gun for a real gun and firing when they perceive a threat. The 'threat' was innocent, but the intent behind killing them was defense, not to kill an innocent, so I wouldn't say it's evil to do that.

The CS may be a case of this on a large scale. There's so many real guns out there (cannibalistic D-Bees, human-sacrificing wizards) that the squirt/BB (innocent D-bees, mages who just want to make bread) are mistaken as threats.

Humans have lived on Earth, uninterrupted, from when they evolved from apes.

Although that's the going IRL viewpoint, it's probably worth considering in the Palladium Megaverse that we don't know for sure that this is the case. Is this stated for certain in any Rifts books?

The closest thing to an argument I can see for this would be in the TMNT timeline since Transdimensional actually had precursor species statted out and stuff. Since TMNT led up to a modern earth similar to our own (but with weird stuff added) I know we're inclined to assume it is the same for alternate earths which have (or had) a similar modern earth, but there's no telling for sure that was so.

I think we'd need to be told we evolved here in each setting to know for sure.

Nonetheless, originating here or on PF, we've certainly lived here for exponentially more generations than the vast majority of these incoming species. Least so far as the books tell us.

Some exceptions could exist. I have to wonder about the Sasquatch, for example. I guess either could be d-bees from other dimensions too, but they also might not be, right?

There exist some non-humans who the CS would assume are D-Bees who may not actually be from another dimension. Those are the moral situations we should be worrying about. But those are minority situations to judge case by case and unrelated to other stuff which isn't known to have lived here in the past.

Any Dimensional being at best has 300 years of squatting on our planet.

I wouldn't say that, it seems a few ancient dragons (Rama Set and Lo Fung) were around when the Coming of the Rifts came, right? Dreamer (immortal in mercs) has definitely been here longer. Plus all the weird deities who set up pantheons millenia before the coming of the rifts (although it seems like they all ditched the planet so they could forfeit their rights, it was not continuous occupancy, and it still seems like they still initially invaded the place back then)

[Blue_Lion]

Well, you do have to admit that there's a difference between, "This land is claimed by X" and, "Well...guess we'll settle here..."

One is active and seeks order, the other is just rolling with the chaos and seeks no responsibility.

Don't get me wrong, the CS is murdering it's way to gain land for humans, but those in the way don't have to be there, and are rather foolish to stay considering uncle Skullhead's rep.

Not that it's always the settler's fault, but that's the situation.

Not really.....remember the majority of these people were here before the CS went all Evil Empire on people. Blaming people for living in their city is like saying "Well those Russians should have just moved away, its their fault that they got killed by the Nazis".....
Its blaming the victim for the actions of the abuser and then saying that they had the gall to not give their victimizer what they wanted "Gee if they had just given that mugger their money they wouldn't have been shot"....which soon becomes "Well if they hadn't lived in the same town as that known sex offender they wouldn't have been raped".....
This is the fault of the CS and trying to shift the blame to the victims is disingenuous at best.

That's enough words in my mouth, thank you.

Besides, who guarantees rights in Rifts, and who has authority to do so? When it comes down to it, you fight for your claim, or you choose non-violence and flee or submit yourself to the aggressor's mercy. How am I saying the CS is in the right and d-bees should leave and that it's their fault for being there? I pointed out facts in the situation, those being that the CS is murdering their way across NA and that people who stay in the way fight, flee or submit. How is it the victim's fault? How are you getting that I'm saying it's their fault when I literally said, "it isn't always the settler's fault"...?

Pointing out that they can move away doesn't make the CS right, what I AM saying is that things aren't so simple when you built a farm on land an enemy lays claim to, no matter who that enemy is.

The argument that Tolkeen (which as a nation btw existed before the CS was formed....) should move because the CS says that the now own that land is ludicrous.
The argument that a D-Bee villiag that has existed for centuries should move because someone moves in and thinks that they have claim to the land is silly.
And what is sillier is that somehow that not moving means that the aggressor has some sort of moral authority. They don't. At least in Palladium they don't, because in the Palladium universe we can look at what the definition of good and evil are and see where stealing lies......

Tolkeen was a city, that had dimensional beings that had invaded earth. Humans were not saying the lad was 'now' theirs. They were establishing that Earth was -always- theirs.

The Dbee village, even if it's been around for centuries, are still squatting on OUR planet. Your logic is akin to a guy out in Montanna that has 1000s of acres of land, and finds out there's a house off up in the woods some where he doesn't often go, and moves to evict the squatters on his land. That's great if your house has been there for years, but that doesn't make it your land by default. Your'e still tresspassing.

As for the comment about not moving means the aggressor has some sort of moral authority. Noone was saying the aggressor had moral authority because they were the aggressor. ther CS were taking back 'stolen' land. The 'You didn't run so you're dumb' comes from the fact that.... they didn't run and were dumb. Right or wrong, everyone told them they'd get trounced. The other magic nations told Tolkeen straight up "Even if we all united, which would never happen, the CS would -still win-. Your battle is useless, You will fight and die and the CS will not care. You won't win any moral victory, because you'll be dead. Those that don't like the CS won't dislike them more. They already dislike them. It just means you'll be dead. When you CAN run from a losing battle, and don't, you're stupid. There wasn't even any moral reason to fight the battle. Annihilation was assured. More over Tolkeen dove into evil to -try- and survive the battle everyone told them they'd lose. The argument that they 'had to' is what's silly. You don't 'have' to become evil because you're attacked. Tolkeen could have run. Relocated. Hid. They could have chosen to fight, but fight honorably with out devolving into evil. They did none of those. They -chose- instead to fully embrace evil in their attempt to kill the CS. That was the choice they made.

So let me get this straight a kingdom with human leaders who have right to the land according to you allows and sells land to dimensional beings looses all rights to the land because they allowed non humans to buy it?

Now then did the CS or its citizens every control or have dead to such land. (kind of hard to prove.) You are claiming that they have rights to it just because it is where there ancestors came from even if there ancestors never owned the land in question.

You are also making a false statement that they are invaders as not all D-bees are invaders, many where trapped on earth by the rifts that humans caused, others where summoned, some where even invited by the nation that ruled the area of land at the time. A group trapped on earth do to the actions of humans are not invaders.

And lets check a nation on earth with human leadership is attacked and conquered by CS because the land belongs to humans and the CS are reclaiming stolen land. That means they are retaking land from humans or land that was sold/traded by humans.

You really need to take off that rose colored helmet take a look at your propaganda from another stand point.

[Alrik Vas]

Yah, but the point of the Tolkeen war is that neither side was good. Both sides could be portrayed as the antagonist or protagonist.

Baby killing human supremacists vs demon summoning arrogance.

Whoever had more force to enforce won.

[Blue_Lion]

Yah, but the point of the Tolkeen war is that neither side was good. Both sides could be portrayed as the antagonist or protagonist.

Baby killing human supremacists vs demon summoning arrogance.

Whoever had more force to enforce won.

I never claimed Tolkeen was good.
Just that the justification of reclaiming human land that where stolen when the people you are taking them from got them from humans.

Do not think arrogance was the right word, maybe demon summoning fanatics might fit better.

I am not sure force was all in the CS favor if I recall right the main CS force was driven back in the sorcerers revenge. The CS then had a come back (that some debate) if was possible to do a massive surprise attack. to me it is something that should be impossible against most human/d-bee nations do to powers that can give warnings of impending danger. For example if Atlantis launched a massive surprise attack on Chi town the psi-battalion should receive advanced warning. Small scale surprise attacks can work but when the attack leads to the death of thousands it should have a warning by various powers and spells.

[Alrik Vas]

That isn't the issue, though. Maybe a better point is that Tolkeen was an allied race nation, who happen to be lead by humans.

[Blue_Lion]

That isn't the issue, though. Maybe a better point is that Tolkeen was an allied race nation, who happen to be lead by humans.

That was my point it was a nation led by humans that the CS attacked and claimed land from as part of their reclaiming land for humanity campaign. Giving that the nation was led by human it was not land stolen from humans, defeats that the CS was just reclaiming stolen land.

[Shark_Force]

i'm pretty sure you can't paint tolkeen as the antagonist. or at least, no more so than anyone else (the only difference between antagonist and protagonist is that the protagonist is the main character of a story. you could take the kindest, gentlest, most good-aligned person in the megaverse and they'd be the antagonist of the story was written from the perspective of an evil person who is annoyed that the good person keeps helping their victims).

basically everything tolkeen did was in response to the CS promising to come there and murder them for the last few decades. they certainly aren't altogether good (allying with demons is both stupid and evil, because you know they're going to commit atrocities, and you can be pretty sure they're going to screw you over as well... though i would say most of the mercenaries and such were more likely anarchist or scrupulous rather than evil, and likely didn't really understand that tolkeen was allied with demons... the first mention of the daemonix actually being deployed is the sorcerer's revenge, at which point tolkeen lost most of their support).

on a side note, if humanity owns the earth, and tolkeen has some humans that invite other non-humans in and give them some land, that gives just as much legitimacy to the non-humans as the humans have. only if all that land is somehow inherently the property of the CS, rather than humans in general, can the claim be made that the d-bees in tolkeen are squatters or trespassers or invaders.

[Nightmask]

See, Pepsi, I agree more or less with what you're saying. Eliakon's argument is that morality isn't subjective in Rifts on account of the alignment system.

That's because morality ISN'T subjective in Rifts BECAUSE we have an alignment system that spells out just what is and is not moral behavior. People in RL might get away with declaring 'well I don't subscribe to that as being immoral and I'm in fact quite moral and decent' while blood drips from his hands from his latest victim and have people agree but someone like that in Rifts isn't going to get away with it because it's stated quite clearly how immoral and evil that is.

[Nightmask]

Yah, but the point of the Tolkeen war is that neither side was good. Both sides could be portrayed as the antagonist or protagonist.

Baby killing human supremacists vs demon summoning arrogance.

Whoever had more force to enforce won.

The Tolkeen was isn't that simplistic. Tolkeen was certainly good to start and the CS was ALWAYS evil but what we saw was the slow slide in morality that can occur due to war as Tolkeen went from on the Good side and edged towards Evil as the higher ups did everything they could to protect their people and stop the evil seeking to kill them all and destroy their peaceful way of living. They needed more power to fight back with and hold what belonged to them and eventually fell to using demonic help to fight an equally demonic force.

[Alrik Vas]

These are misconceptions about good and evil, but you're arguing inside of Palladium alignment so I'll just sit here and take it.

Nations aren't good or evil, they commit atrocities that benefit themselves, they also aid those in need with supplies, even if they know those supplies will only help the dictator faction murdering it's own people.

Tolkeen is good? Get real. They had a hand in creating the monster that is the CS, then militarized to protect themselves from it. Karl Prosek is a villain, Tolkeen never intended for this to happen. Well like you guys keep saying, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

And Tolkeen walked right down it, then the remnants had the arrogance to blame their attacker when their actions helped make them what they are.

It's laughable.

[Killer Cyborg]

What alignment is a shark?

[Alrik Vas]

I think the closest thing for most any wild animal would be anarchist. If you buy into alignments.

[flatline]

I think the closest thing for most any wild animal would be anarchist. If you buy into alignments.

Cats are diabolic. Have you ever seen a cat torture a mole or mouse? Just for fun?

[Tor]

Considering that the CS would also reclaim land for humanity even if it was solely populated by human mages (let's say, a Society of Sages town) I think the question is: are there any cities in North America bereft of magic prevalence where humans have sold land to D-Bees and the Coalition has stamped on that?

[Shark_Force]

Tolkeen is good? Get real. They had a hand in creating the monster that is the CS, then militarized to protect themselves from it. Karl Prosek is a villain, Tolkeen never intended for this to happen. Well like you guys keep saying, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

the CS was already pretty much what it was before tolkeen had a hand in anything. oh, they're more convinced of what they were already convinced of since the war, but it isn't like there was a lot of doubt before the war anyways. they were already a brutal oppressive dictatorship with plans to murder any non-human, educated human, magically capable human, or human that doesn't join their organization before the war with tolkeen.

as to the rest, i can somewhat agree. nations don't have alignments in the same way that individuals do, because individual humans within the nation can go against the nation's expected behaviour. and tolkeen definitely went down a path to evil.

but tolkeen is not to blame for the CS. if there was no tolkeen, lazlo or the federation of magic would have been the scapegoat. if there was no lazlo or federation of magic either, wandering mages or rogue scholars and random monsters from the rifts would have been the scapegoat. you can tell, because that's exactly who the CS used as their boogie man for decades before declaring war on tolkeen.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the closest thing for most any wild animal would be anarchist. If you buy into alignments.

Sharks kill innocents regularly, every time they eat.
That doesn't fit with anarchist.

Which is my point; the alignment system was designed to apply to individual sapients, not to rocks, plants, animals, or nations.

[say652]

Mainly being the cs refuses to even negotiate with nonhumans even if goodly aligned. That in itself is evil.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mainly being the cs refuses to even negotiate with nonhumans even if goodly aligned. That in itself is evil.

I don't remember that on the alignment charts.

[Tor]

Found another fun bit, CWCp199..

paragraph at top of left column:
"outrageous atrocities cannot be ignored and the soldier may find himself court martialed or have an accident while on duty"

paragraph at bottom of left column
"the majority of CS troops and law enforcers do conduct themselves with some degree of morality and compassion"
"They don't, as a rule, go around pushing, beating, harassing, raping and killing"

right column (refugees and rejects)
"Many of those rejected .. see life, even in the Burbs, as better and safer than other alternatives"
"gives one a good idea of just how terrible and frightening life cna be outside the Coalition States

Also worth noting the Spiny Ravagers on page 212-214.

Admittedly, since they only arrived the last 2 years, we can't attribute keeping them back as a long-term benefit the CS has provided, but at present, things like this being around are exactly why people need the CS.

Ravagers are monsters "common" to the Burbs. This in spite of the CS conducting a campaign of extermination on them. They would likely be even more common to other population centers with fewer defenses. One along is ridiculous, and they hunt in packs.

[Zer0 Kay]

I think the closest thing for most any wild animal would be anarchist. If you buy into alignments.

Sharks kill innocents regularly, every time they eat.
That doesn't fit with anarchist.

Which is my point; the alignment system was designed to apply to individual sapients, not to rocks, plants, animals, or nations.

But regardless of an alignment system a government can still be generalized as either good or evil. Just because the alignment system wasn't meant for rocks, plants, animals or nations doesn't mean that the label or concept of good or evil can not be attributed to said thing. A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses. If a larger mass of sapients believed the xiticix were good rather than evil then they would most likely be classified good. Based on their behavior however and who is writing the "history" books the xits are maligned as the consuming horde. It would be dang funny if they saved the Earth by consuming the demons which somehow heavily declined their population making them easy pickings for the less swarmlike sapients of Earth to pick off.

[Alrik Vas]

Are other sea animals innocent? Shark feeds off an injured whale, whale eats plankton. Same with lands animals. Bear eat fish, so so humans. We keep cattle for slaughter.

We eat meat prepared by others. Oh snap, we're all evil unless we fight against it...

[Alrik Vas]

I think the closest thing for most any wild animal would be anarchist. If you buy into alignments.

Sharks kill innocents regularly, every time they eat.
That doesn't fit with anarchist.

Which is my point; the alignment system was designed to apply to individual sapients, not to rocks, plants, animals, or nations.

But regardless of an alignment system a government can still be generalized as either good or evil. Just because the alignment system wasn't meant for rocks, plants, animals or nations doesn't mean that the label or concept of good or evil can not be attributed to said thing. A fly would think a Venus fly trap was evil. It is all really based on the perception of the individual but solidified by the perception of the masses. If a larger mass of sapients believed the xiticix were good rather than evil then they would most likely be classified good. Based on their behavior however and who is writing the "history" books the xits are maligned as the consuming horde. It would be dang funny if they saved the Earth by consuming the demons which somehow heavily declined their population making them easy pickings for the less swarmlike sapients of Earth to pick off.

ZK, I'm okay with that, but much of the argument here is that evil is a quantifiable force in Palladium's reality. Alignment is attributed to beings, labeling them and condemning them by the system, which doesn't care about circumstance.

It's very binary.

Which is why I prefer actual morality and ethics to be applied instead.