eliakon wrote: Pepsi Jedi wrote:
ehhhhhhhhhhhh Kinda...
It's more like saying your neighbor is a psychotic gun nut that might kill my kids. and the neighbor who did have guns but wasn't psychotic going, "Oh yeah? Well I'll show you!! and killing your kids, doing nasty sexual things to them, then chopping them up for BBQ.
Remember, tolkeen had other options they chose not to take. They went from 'good' to --REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALY EVIL--- REALLY quick and with gusto, far worse than the CS had even accused them of.
The threat was present. The CS highlighted the threat and yes, did some heavy anti tolkeen military posturing (Straight up threats), but tolkeen took it and ran with it like crazy. I mean the entire nation went crazy sauce over it.
in the end, Tolkeen was exactly what the CS accused them of, worse actually.
The saddest thing of the entire CS/Tolkeen war, was that Tolkeen -used- to be good. They --chose-- to become evil.
I would say that promising to murder every man woman and child in the nation is a bit more than 'military posturing' and 'threats'
Well.. untill they -do it- ... that's exactly what it is. Military posturing and threats. Remember the CS said they were going to do it like 7 to 10 years before they came over the hill to do so.
eliakon wrote:
And Tolkeens options were always either stay and fight or give in to evil and run away (not really an option for a nation)
They're not especially good choices, but they were choices none the less. Yes. Tolkeen -could- have stayed "good" and fought. They'd have still lost (Which isn't a surprise. Everyone told them they would) but they would not have descended into evil to do so. That would have been the mark of a truely 'good' nation. One that resists the urge to go evil when times get rough.
That's not the choice Tolkeen went with.
Yes they -could- have run. If nothing else it took the CS years to mobalize and actually come to carry out their threats. In that time Tolkeen could have run. They were a nation of magic users. Instead of using years of time to build up military might, and untold billions in resources to outfit a (Literal) Demonic army with technowizardry arms and magical items. They could have used that magic and money to run. To get out of dodge. To transport their entire city/nation's worth of people across the US and over to Cali, where the CS don't reach.
They didn't choose that either.
They could have -hidden-. Other magic nations do it, and have for years. It's not that 'hard' for them to pull it off. Tolkeen was a major magical city. They could have hidden using their magic to basicly get out of dodge that way. Or even phased into another dimension, like Psyscape.
They didn't choose that either.
They chose to dive, headlong and fast into evil. Not mosy. Not stroll. They ran and dove into evil with a vengeance.
This choice defines them. More over the choice that they made, not only defines how they 'ended' but it tarnishes how they were from the start. It's 'easy' to make the right choices and stuff in good times. When things are good and nothing is at state, making 'good' choices is easy. It's when times are tough, when times look impossible, when you're truely put to the test, it's THEN that your actions define you.
In tolkeen's case, they were put to the test. They didn't choose good. They didn't even chose 'Run and or hide' to save their people. They were put to the test and went' EVIL! YEP!! LETS DO IT!!"
And that shows that while they may have appeared good at the start. They were evil deep down, because when put to that test, they not only chose evil they embraced it with speed and vigor and never looked back.
eliakon wrote:
Over a decade of building up for the inevitable war
The thing is it didn't have to be. Tolkeen chose to go into the war.
eliakon wrote: they got on a rather slippery moral slope and while they may have started with the best intentions they ended up falling into being just as much of an evil as the CS that they sought to stop.
That's the thing though. Even if you consider the CS 'evil'. Tolkeen didn't become 'just as much of an evil as the cs" Tolkeen, far far surpassed the CS. The CS might be pro human, anti Dbee, they mightkill magic users, but at their worst, the CS never broke out demons, so vile and dastardly, that even other demons locked them in jail, free armies of those Demons and spend billions to outfit them with magical arms and armor, and then unleash them on earth.
Tolkeen's "Evil" makes the CS look like pissy ants, in comparison. And some would say, that takes some doing.
eliakon wrote:
The sad irony is that Tolkeen being evil turned out to be a self fulfilling prophecy. If the CS had not been trying to murder them all then Tolkeen would not have had to try and find better ways to defend themselves. And thus they would not have had any reason to give into the temptation of demons (note that they didn't start using demons till after they started militarizing and found that mundane magic was insufficient to their needs).
The thing is, as pointed out above this isn't a given. The fact that they did so willingly go evil, so fast and to such depths, shows that they couldn't have been 'good' to start with. If they were honestly 'good' when the choice of such demonic evil was brought up, they would have made the choice. "Tis better to die, with our morals, With our honor. With the right, following the light, than to live, having devolved to such depths of evil" type thing. Instead Tolkeen went "WE NEED MOAR POWAAAAH!!! SUMMON ZEE DEMONZZ!!
eliakon wrote:
I am not condoning the use of dark magic and demons here, just saying that the Tolkeen people would never have used it if they had not thought their lives were in such danger that it seemed to be the only way to save themselves.
Thing is it wasn't the only way. And that's not just me speculating. The other magic nations TOLD them to run. Tolkeen basicly grabbed their crotches and said "Fine we'll do it with out you cowards" the other magic nations told Tolkeen "No dude. We're not teaming up with you, because --even if we did team up, the CS would --still win-- and kill us all. You gotta RUN or you'll die"
The misconception that Tolkeen had no other option than mindcrushing evil that make the Nazi party look like fussy first graders, is part of the problem. Even the books show leaders in world (Erin Tarn, plato etc) Telling Tolkeen they had to bail. To stand would just lead to destruction and the deaths of 100s of 1000s.
In the end. Tolkeen was as the CS saw them. A huge threat, a nation of magic users and DBees whom embraced dark magic and consorted with the supernatural and Demons. They were that thing, because when provoked by the CS they -chose- to be that thing. They wern't -forced-. They made the willing choice. Which says they were that thing all along, They just hadn't had to show it yet.