The Coalition States are not the bad guy

[Tor]

they thaght they had no other way

Source?

Not a single person knew the Circle of Travel spell? Sure, it's level 15, but you would only need one to get people out.

they new for years that the CS was going to come for them. In fact the CS even had earlier failed attacks.

Tolkeen was militarizing years before the unauthorized military assault (the Folley)

If there is an earlier attack than that, I'd like to hear when.

You claim would be like if Mexico invaded Texas and Texans fought back claiming Texas chose to go to war, war brought to them and they where part of it even if they chose not to be.

Was Texas part of a Coalition that had previously invaded Mexico? Was Texas suspected of harboring or supporting anti-Mexico terrorists? Of planning an assassination campaign of the Mexican president?

Tolkeen was a major nation on north America How many places had the infrastructure in place to accept such a large amount of refugees. Lazlo could not, Kingsdale could not, the Indian nations would most likely not.

Pretty sure I had read something about Lazlo doing just that. Maybe not all in one fell swoop but Tolkeen could've let them trickle out at a manageable rate while the strong guys held the borders long enough to make the transition.

They could've gone to growing places like New Lazlo or Magestar if Lazlo was overstressed. I'm sure Dweomer and Psyscape could've gradually picked up some people in secret.

Also: since there were normal people living in Minnesota within the Tolkeen Kingdom, people who aren't mages or d-bees, just some normal humans, they could've probably gone and applied for CS citizenship.

[Shark_Force]

since tolkeen got destroyed, the city of lazlo is explicitly having problems with handling just the refugees (ie not the full population, just the ones that survived and didn't decide to go someplace else). so no, lazlo didn't (and still doesn't) have the resources to handle tolkeen moving there. nobody else offered to take them in either.

honestly, i don't think lazlo ever volunteered to take in *any* refugees from tolkeen. their whole thing was basically that tolkeen should've abandoned everything they'd worked for and move their city somewhere else, with the precise location being basically undefined.

[Killer Cyborg]

One of the problems with cities like Tolkeen is that with their access to magic, they could actually have moved their population to another, infinitely safer and more peaceful dimension.
Of all the worlds in the Megaverse, Rifts Earth isn't one that anybody should want to stay at, unless they're power-hungry like the Splugorth, or fanatical like the Coalition.

[Tor]

I think maybe Lazlo just got spooked by the shock. First Tolkeen said nobody was coming, then they all came in a rush. Had Tolkeen actually been open to evacuation and co-operated with Lazlo they could've found a plan for dealing with the refugees manageably. Being able to predict and prepare for the numbers would've made them more able to do it. If not as a permanent residence then as a waystation ready to send them to other places, giving them time to broker talks with other living spaces.

[Blue_Lion]

they thaght they had no other way

Source?

Not a single person knew the Circle of Travel spell? Sure, it's level 15, but you would only need one to get people out.

they new for years that the CS was going to come for them. In fact the CS even had earlier failed attacks.

Tolkeen was militarizing years before the unauthorized military assault (the Folley)

If there is an earlier attack than that, I'd like to hear when.

You claim would be like if Mexico invaded Texas and Texans fought back claiming Texas chose to go to war, war brought to them and they where part of it even if they chose not to be.

Was Texas part of a Coalition that had previously invaded Mexico? Was Texas suspected of harboring or supporting anti-Mexico terrorists? Of planning an assassination campaign of the Mexican president?

Tolkeen was a major nation on north America How many places had the infrastructure in place to accept such a large amount of refugees. Lazlo could not, Kingsdale could not, the Indian nations would most likely not.

Pretty sure I had read something about Lazlo doing just that. Maybe not all in one fell swoop but Tolkeen could've let them trickle out at a manageable rate while the strong guys held the borders long enough to make the transition.

They could've gone to growing places like New Lazlo or Magestar if Lazlo was overstressed. I'm sure Dweomer and Psyscape could've gradually picked up some people in secret.

Also: since there were normal people living in Minnesota within the Tolkeen Kingdom, people who aren't mages or d-bees, just some normal humans, they could've probably gone and applied for CS citizenship.

So wait the existence of 1 high level spell changes how a nation thinks. The whole feel and text is that was that war with the CS was inevitable means they felt they had no choice.
But lets say that they did evacuate without fighting before the war and went to near by nation such as Lazlo (not that Lazlo could take them) then when the CS invaded their territory with no resistance they would fallow the fleeing mages and attack Lazlo.

Tolkeen knew from CS posturing that the CS was planning to attack before the folly there is no evidence that they used any dark magic they relied on defensive ability to withstand the assault then attacked with what was on hand to drive back the small CS force. AS to CS attacks before that the CS often sends patrols and troops into others territories and these are small invasions and or attacks if they go into another nations territory.

Tolkeen was not part of any collation that attacked the CS nor did they actively promote terrorist against the CS. So you are misdirecting.

The number of people in the nation if they all left would be to much of a strain for most of NA, it is more than just planning ahead they need food and shelters and most nations do not have large surplus of that in rifts.
So your solution to not go to war is send your strongest men to your boarders to cover peoples escape, yea there is no chance the Cs would misread that and attack. In addition the Cs command had a personal grudge against Tolkeen and the people in it, they may not have let them escape. During the final siege the CS leveled and destroyed every small town and village they came a crossed including the all human no magic pro CS ones. Even if the humans where not fighting and would have liked to join the CS they got attacked.

[Blue_Lion]

I think maybe Lazlo just got spooked by the shock. First Tolkeen said nobody was coming, then they all came in a rush. Had Tolkeen actually been open to evacuation and co-operated with Lazlo they could've found a plan for dealing with the refugees manageably. Being able to predict and prepare for the numbers would've made them more able to do it. If not as a permanent residence then as a waystation ready to send them to other places, giving them time to broker talks with other living spaces.

Maybe in an ideal world but food production would be an issue there is only so much food planted and grown every where and as people move in you need more space for farming and for them to live. Even growing nations have a limit and you are talking about a nation that had two large cities to evacuate.
Doing it in a way that would not stress would take decades to do. In addition travel in rifts is not always the safest. So for many it turns into which is a more immediate threat to survival leaving or staying.

[Tor]

So wait the existence of 1 high level spell changes how a nation thinks.

It does mean that some members would be aware of the option to escape easily, and how they could evacuate people with this tool.

Admittedly, the upper echelon of Tolkeen might have hidden the existence of this spell from their people so they thought there was no easy way out.

Only goes to show how evil the rulership of Tolkeen was though, if they did that.

For a point of consideration, per Siege on Tolkeen 6 (Final Siege) page 92 the Scrupulous Human Techno-Wizard ,e,ber pf tje Circle of Twelve named Malik Savant knows the Circle of Travel spell. He opposed the war and supported evacuation. If anyone was equipped to do this CoT evacuation, it was him.

Malik probably learned it from Baarrtk Krror, who also knows it. That this did not happen is testimony to Malik being over-ruled by the others.

The main problem is that he only got to do this too late in the game. If he had been given this chance earlier on and allowed to dedicate more resources to it, Tolkeen's people could've been long-gone before the CS showed up.

The whole feel and text is that was that war with the CS was inevitable means they felt they had no choice.

Who felt this? Guys like Robert Creed knew they had a choice, they just felt compelled to stand and fight on principle.

But lets say that they did evacuate without fighting before the war and went to near by nation such as Lazlo (not that Lazlo could take them) then when the CS invaded their territory with no resistance they would fallow the fleeing mages and attack Lazlo.

Eventually, sure, given a few decades. Lazlo's way further off than Tolkeen, I'm not aware of it being a former member of the Federation of Magic, it's helping out with the Xiticix genocide, it isn't suspected in the Old Bones revival or the Joseph Prosek assassination. It would not be a target for a long while, the CS would probably more to focus on the Kingdom of Brass and Dweomer, if they could find either of them.

The amount of time it would take to invade Lazlo would give Lazlo a similarly adequate amount of time to evacuate or alter their policies to be acceptable to the CS.

Tolkeen knew from CS posturing that the CS was planning to attack before the folly there is no evidence that they used any dark magic they relied on defensive ability to withstand the assault then attacked with what was on hand to drive back the small CS force.

When Mercs 67 mentions "magic war machines unleashed by Tolkeen", what do you think it was referring to? Sounds a heck of a lot like what eventually became known to us as the Juggernauts. I wouldn't initially think 'oh, probably just some wing boards' hearing that. He is described at the time as saying that teaching the Coalition the meaning of fear is only the beginning.

As of 89PA, this gave the CS complete justification to invade, with threats like that being made. Had the defense/pacifist faction won out, they might not have invaded.

The CS did invade Minnesota and obliterate 6 villages in 70 PA. It was a time of mourning, without any solid leadership. CS Military High Command only ordered raids on communities outside CS borders who harbor/trade with mages/D-Bees/enemies. High Command is not describing as ordering obliteration. As soon as Tolkeen responded to stop this, Cabot took control and backed off and held the CS together another 1 1/3 years until Karl got elected Chairman.

A key time to look at would be 88 PA, in Sedition page 102. Post-Gravandar and the 2 factions, one wanting to continue defensive/pacifist policies and another wanting to militarize and be aggressive with the CS. The CS increased military buildup on Minnesota borders at this time. Creed got appointed in 89 PA as a militant leader. This is about 19 years since (probably rogue elements of) the CS had obliterated the 6 villages in Minnesota, prior to Karl's leadership.

We're also told on page 101 that Karl's hatred and distrust of Tolkeen is 'healthy'

AS to CS attacks before that the CS often sends patrols and troops into others territories and these are small invasions and or attacks if they go into another nations territory.

Tolkeen was not part of any collation that attacked the CS nor did they actively promote terrorist against the CS. So you are misdirecting.

Source?

Sedition page 100 in 49 PA, Tolkeen was suspected of backing the Mok Braun takeover of the Old Chicago Rift. I see no reason to discount that, since FoM was splintered and Dunsconless at the time.

Sedition page 101 we also know that in 70 PA, the "coalition of several independent groups" included brigands with loose ties to Tolkeen. They could have been born in Tolkeen, come from Tolkeen, traded with Tolkeen, associated with Tolkeen communities, or associated with people from Tolkeen. The full extent is not clear.

The 71PA entry is also interesting to look at. We are told that Karl does build permanent outposts inside the borders of old Minesota, that he is fine with a show of force, confronting Tolkeen. Considering that his distrust of Tolkeen is healthy, this seems like a wise move to protect the CS.

We are told that Tolkeen correctly predicts the beginning of a downward spiral to total war. What we are not told though, is who is at fault for the spiral.

The problem with Tolkeen is that after a single ambassador is sent back to them in a body bag, they just "know" that the time for talking is "gone forever".

Really, Tolkeen?

I mean, did you even bother to investigate the death or wonder who was at fault for it? Are we told the CS killed the diplomat, or do people just assume that?

What if Dunscon had the diplomat killed because he loves the idea of the CS taking out Tolkeen?

What if the diplomat tripped and fell on a vibro-blade?

Due to a single death, with no context at all, Tolkeen's policy is to meet ANY military personnel in its territory with lethal force.

I believe RCSG scientists are military personnel. I think the CS probably also has military medics. CS diplomats are also probably part of the military structure. According to Erin Tarn, patrolling SAMAS squads have rescued unaligned villages subject to supernatural monsters. I guess Tolkeen attacks those guys too!

So due to 1 diplomat's death, Tolkeen probably started shooting at ALL of the CS diplomats or aid workers. This was also the "relatively defensive, almost pacifistic" Tolkeen, 17 years before Gravander died. Think of how much worse this got with Creed. I'm actually surprised it took over 15 years for the CS to officially invade the place.

The number of people in the nation if they all left would be to much of a strain for most of NA, it is more than just planning ahead they need food and shelters and most nations do not have large surplus of that in rifts.

This is a city of mages, someone out there has got to know "Create Bread and Milk" from PF, surely. That's not exactly a complete diet but it's enough to tide people over until they can get the earth warlocks setting up some enhanced farming.

A combination of 'Create Wood' and 'Ironwood' would allow MDC log cabins to be set up. PPE donated from people would help cover this, as would a simple ley line if they set up along it.

It is very feasible to do all of this, but you need to dedicate the proper effort to it, and Tolkeen didn't. They were more concerned with killing the CS and defending their pride than their people.

So your solution to not go to war is send your strongest men to your boarders to cover peoples escape, yea there is no chance the Cs would misread that and attack.

You wouldn't have to go right to the borders of Minnesota to cover an escape. I was thinking more the borders of the city, no the kingdom.

In addition the Cs command had a personal grudge against Tolkeen and the people in it, they may not have let them escape.

"Oh look, our enemies are leaving, let's waste resources and attack them on the way out to discourage our enemies from running away from us in the future so that they will fight to the death and destroy our property".

During the final siege the CS leveled and destroyed every small town and village they came a crossed including the all human no magic pro CS ones. Even if the humans where not fighting and would have liked to join the CS they got attacked.

Which all-human no-magic pro-CS towns are we talking about? I will need to review this. More familiar with the first 4 SoT books since I had them longer than the last 3.

This is one of those 'casualties of war' situations to me. Sometimes to bomb a terrorist, you tolerate some innocents in the area also getting bombed, for the greater good.

Pretty sure that Tolkeen fighters were hiding in these small towns and ambushing CS as they passed through which is why they needed to deal with the threats, to avoid getting hit from the sides or the back.

[flatline]

Let's say Tolkeen decided to evacuate via Circle of Travel. As they are evacuating their armed forces (presumably after all civilians are gone), eventually their remaining armed forces are too small to be able to protect themselves. If the CS were to attack during the evacuation, everyone left would die.

Should Tolkeen just accept those losses as unavoidable?

What about all the things that can't be realistically transported via Circle of Travel?

What I'm getting at is that Circle of Travel isn't a "get out of jail free" card like you're making it out to be. It incurs risks, perhaps even larger risks than staying and fighting.

--flatline

[Tor]

The final guys to evacuate could be covered by golems or robots or summoned elemental fragments. The CS have held back to avoid starting a war, why would they start one when the enemy is leaving? I think they want to encourage mages and D-Bees to run so they can continue to stockpile resources for the threats which won't run.

You are right though about having to leave a lot of stuff behind, CoT can't bring your vehicles or homes or whatev, you would have to rebuild, leave a lot of your livelihood behind. I'm just talking about saving lives.

Homes seem easy enough to rebuild if you give the Create/Iron-Wood guys lots of PPE and have golems/elementals do the heavy lifting. Vehicles are already mobile so you could've started driving them out of the Kingdom years ago.

Tolkeen's the one who decided that talking-time is gone-forever and to confront all CS military with lethal force. People who opt to stay in such a xenophobic kingdom ought to know it comes with some risks.

I wonder if Tolkeen bothered to considered the possibility that sometimes diplomats kill themselves on the job[/url] before deciding to end talks forever with the CS and be hostile to them whenever encountered.

Managed to find some IRL examples of this:
*Branislav, Serbia's ambassador to NATO, jumped off roof of a Belgum airport parking lot
*Thomas, American ambassador to Cyprus, stabbed himself in the neck
*Egerton, Canadian ambassador to Egypt, jumped off roof of Swedish embassy in Cairo
*Aleksandr, Soviet Union diplomat to Columbia, took a suicide pill
*Lucien, French envoy to the United States, shot himself

But apparently dead diplomat = "let's blame the place he was sent to". Never mind that diplomats have been killed for other reasons. It isn't automatically a "kill the messenger" decision by the CS government.

[Killer Cyborg]

Let's say Tolkeen decided to evacuate via Circle of Travel. As they are evacuating their armed forces (presumably after all civilians are gone), eventually their remaining armed forces are too small to be able to protect themselves. If the CS were to attack during the evacuation, everyone left would die.

Should Tolkeen just accept those losses as unavoidable?

What about all the things that can't be realistically transported via Circle of Travel?

What I'm getting at is that Circle of Travel isn't a "get out of jail free" card like you're making it out to be. It incurs risks, perhaps even larger risks than staying and fighting.

--flatline

Depending on when and how you use it, you are absolutely correct.
But how old WAS Tolkeen by the time the CS attacked?

At this point, I'm personally not even wondering "why not evacuate when the CS became threatening," but even just "why not move someplace much nicer to begin with," or "with dimensional travel easily available, you could have entire suburbs or neighborhoods in other dimensions to begin with."

[flatline]

At this point, I'm personally not even wondering "why not evacuate when the CS became threatening," but even just "why not move someplace much nicer to begin with," or "with dimensional travel easily available, you could have entire suburbs or neighborhoods in other dimensions to begin with."

I don't know why Tolkeen grew where it grew. Perhaps the confluence of several ley lines made it an optimal location for a magic friendly community to start and they were already established before they knew they had a grumpy neighbor?

[Killer Cyborg]

At this point, I'm personally not even wondering "why not evacuate when the CS became threatening," but even just "why not move someplace much nicer to begin with," or "with dimensional travel easily available, you could have entire suburbs or neighborhoods in other dimensions to begin with."

I don't know why Tolkeen grew where it grew. Perhaps the confluence of several ley lines made it an optimal location for a magic friendly community to start and they were already established before they knew they had a grumpy neighbor?

Most likely.

[Zer0 Kay]

At this point, I'm personally not even wondering "why not evacuate when the CS became threatening," but even just "why not move someplace much nicer to begin with," or "with dimensional travel easily available, you could have entire suburbs or neighborhoods in other dimensions to begin with."

I don't know why Tolkeen grew where it grew. Perhaps the confluence of several ley lines made it an optimal location for a magic friendly community to start and they were already established before they knew they had a grumpy neighbor?

Most likely.

At the same time what kept them from leaving a very small footprint in the physical world and having a ton of mystics make an Astral Kingdom with a doorway leading to a simple house or even a small castle or a stone pyramid or a transplanted millennium tree to mark the nexus and act as a doorway? I mean besides Astral Kingdoms not being a thing until Nightspawn.

Every "magic kingdom" should be just a physical marker for an entrance to a massive (it's bigger on the inside) Astral Kingdom.

"How is it that every magic kingdom"... oh my gosh I just said that too much and now I keep thinking Disney Land

"How is it that every magic kingdom, no matter what the castle looks like looks the same on the inside?"

so there is one in Orlando, Anaheim, Tokyo, Paris, Hong Kong, and Shanghai oh so baaaaaad.

[Shark_Force]

One of the problems with cities like Tolkeen is that with their access to magic, they could actually have moved their population to another, infinitely safer and more peaceful dimension.
Of all the worlds in the Megaverse, Rifts Earth isn't one that anybody should want to stay at, unless they're power-hungry like the Splugorth, or fanatical like the Coalition.

except that home is home, no matter where it is. i can understand that rationally, it is safer to leave than it would be to try and fight to defend it against a very powerful enemy.

but at the same time, i also understand that this is where they live. they've given of themselves to make a place that was, for a time, safe, an oasis in a wasteland desert full of monsters and bandits. they've taken wilderness land and made it into a home, cleared room for crops, laboured over them for years in some cases. it isn't easy to just walk away from that.

it would be like telling someone they should just walk away from a house that they built for their family with their own hands and after years they've finally paid off all the debts they incurred to be able to afford that, and then telling them "well you should just abandon that home without a fight". yeah, something dangerous might be coming, but some things are worth fighting for. this is not just some random patch of land. it is their home.

[Zer0 Kay]

One of the problems with cities like Tolkeen is that with their access to magic, they could actually have moved their population to another, infinitely safer and more peaceful dimension.
Of all the worlds in the Megaverse, Rifts Earth isn't one that anybody should want to stay at, unless they're power-hungry like the Splugorth, or fanatical like the Coalition.

except that home is home, no matter where it is. i can understand that rationally, it is safer to leave than it would be to try and fight to defend it against a very powerful enemy.

but at the same time, i also understand that this is where they live. they've given of themselves to make a place that was, for a time, safe, an oasis in a wasteland desert full of monsters and bandits. they've taken wilderness land and made it into a home, cleared room for crops, laboured over them for years in some cases. it isn't easy to just walk away from that.

it would be like telling someone they should just walk away from a house that they built for their family with their own hands and after years they've finally paid off all the debts they incurred to be able to afford that, and then telling them "well you should just abandon that home without a fight". yeah, something dangerous might be coming, but some things are worth fighting for. this is not just some random patch of land. it is their home.

But it is also like telling the Eskimo that the house that he moved ice brick by ice brick to a warm climate the same thing. The place and city was poorly planned to start with. Kind of like Seattle. It should be a city of magic instead of a city with magic.

[Killer Cyborg]

One of the problems with cities like Tolkeen is that with their access to magic, they could actually have moved their population to another, infinitely safer and more peaceful dimension.
Of all the worlds in the Megaverse, Rifts Earth isn't one that anybody should want to stay at, unless they're power-hungry like the Splugorth, or fanatical like the Coalition.

except that home is home, no matter where it is. i can understand that rationally, it is safer to leave than it would be to try and fight to defend it against a very powerful enemy.

but at the same time, i also understand that this is where they live. they've given of themselves to make a place that was, for a time, safe, an oasis in a wasteland desert full of monsters and bandits. they've taken wilderness land and made it into a home, cleared room for crops, laboured over them for years in some cases. it isn't easy to just walk away from that.

it would be like telling someone they should just walk away from a house that they built for their family with their own hands and after years they've finally paid off all the debts they incurred to be able to afford that, and then telling them "well you should just abandon that home without a fight". yeah, something dangerous might be coming, but some things are worth fighting for. this is not just some random patch of land. it is their home.

Yeah... there are other patches of land, and other homes.

[Shark_Force]

Yeah... there are other patches of land, and other homes.

sure, but once you've built one, i just don't see how we can fault them for wanting to keep the one they have.

yeah, it turns out that there is a definite drawback to the place they chose... but we have no indication that when they chose the location, that drawback was evident.

also, it seems likely they had some hefty investment into the ley line triangle thing... they developed a few spells that can only work in such a location, and created a special machine for it... it is possible that in some way, they actually had need of three ley line nexuses in such close proximity, which wouldn't generally be available just anywhere.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah... there are other patches of land, and other homes.

sure, but once you've built one, i just don't see how we can fault them for wanting to keep the one they have.

yeah, it turns out that there is a definite drawback to the place they chose... but we have no indication that when they chose the location, that drawback was evident.

"Monster-infested planet" seems like a pretty evident drawback.

also, it seems likely they had some hefty investment into the ley line triangle thing... they developed a few spells that can only work in such a location, and created a special machine for it... it is possible that in some way, they actually had need of three ley line nexuses in such close proximity, which wouldn't generally be available just anywhere.

Yup.
That does offer something fairly unique.

[Alrik Vas]

This is not my personal point of view, but something others have pointed out:

Tolkeen shouldn't have to move. The CS was being a bully. These people made their homes there, not everyone could dimensional travel, so they set up where it was, to them, safest in a bad, bad world. Now they're expected to give it up or fight for it?

[eliakon]

This is not my personal point of view, but something others have pointed out:

Tolkeen shouldn't have to move. The CS was being a bully. These people made their homes there, not everyone could dimensional travel, so they set up where it was, to them, safest in a bad, bad world. Now they're expected to give it up or fight for it?

No it seems that they are expected to simply give it up and move.
The argument I am seeing here is that some how choosing to defend themselves from an aggressor makes them the bad guy some how.....

[Blue_Lion]

So wait the existence of 1 high level spell changes how a nation thinks.

It does mean that some members would be aware of the option to escape easily, and how they could evacuate people with this tool.

Admittedly, the upper echelon of Tolkeen might have hidden the existence of this spell from their people so they thought there was no easy way out.

Only goes to show how evil the rulership of Tolkeen was though, if they did that.

For a point of consideration, per Siege on Tolkeen 6 (Final Siege) page 92 the Scrupulous Human Techno-Wizard ,e,ber pf tje Circle of Twelve named Malik Savant knows the Circle of Travel spell. He opposed the war and supported evacuation. If anyone was equipped to do this CoT evacuation, it was him.

Malik probably learned it from Baarrtk Krror, who also knows it. That this did not happen is testimony to Malik being over-ruled by the others.

The main problem is that he only got to do this too late in the game. If he had been given this chance earlier on and allowed to dedicate more resources to it, Tolkeen's people could've been long-gone before the CS showed up.

The whole feel and text is that was that war with the CS was inevitable means they felt they had no choice.

Who felt this? Guys like Robert Creed knew they had a choice, they just felt compelled to stand and fight on principle.

But lets say that they did evacuate without fighting before the war and went to near by nation such as Lazlo (not that Lazlo could take them) then when the CS invaded their territory with no resistance they would fallow the fleeing mages and attack Lazlo.

Eventually, sure, given a few decades. Lazlo's way further off than Tolkeen, I'm not aware of it being a former member of the Federation of Magic, it's helping out with the Xiticix genocide, it isn't suspected in the Old Bones revival or the Joseph Prosek assassination. It would not be a target for a long while, the CS would probably more to focus on the Kingdom of Brass and Dweomer, if they could find either of them.

The amount of time it would take to invade Lazlo would give Lazlo a similarly adequate amount of time to evacuate or alter their policies to be acceptable to the CS.

Tolkeen knew from CS posturing that the CS was planning to attack before the folly there is no evidence that they used any dark magic they relied on defensive ability to withstand the assault then attacked with what was on hand to drive back the small CS force.

When Mercs 67 mentions "magic war machines unleashed by Tolkeen", what do you think it was referring to? Sounds a heck of a lot like what eventually became known to us as the Juggernauts. I wouldn't initially think 'oh, probably just some wing boards' hearing that. He is described at the time as saying that teaching the Coalition the meaning of fear is only the beginning.

As of 89PA, this gave the CS complete justification to invade, with threats like that being made. Had the defense/pacifist faction won out, they might not have invaded.

The CS did invade Minnesota and obliterate 6 villages in 70 PA. It was a time of mourning, without any solid leadership. CS Military High Command only ordered raids on communities outside CS borders who harbor/trade with mages/D-Bees/enemies. High Command is not describing as ordering obliteration. As soon as Tolkeen responded to stop this, Cabot took control and backed off and held the CS together another 1 1/3 years until Karl got elected Chairman.

A key time to look at would be 88 PA, in Sedition page 102. Post-Gravandar and the 2 factions, one wanting to continue defensive/pacifist policies and another wanting to militarize and be aggressive with the CS. The CS increased military buildup on Minnesota borders at this time. Creed got appointed in 89 PA as a militant leader. This is about 19 years since (probably rogue elements of) the CS had obliterated the 6 villages in Minnesota, prior to Karl's leadership.

We're also told on page 101 that Karl's hatred and distrust of Tolkeen is 'healthy'

AS to CS attacks before that the CS often sends patrols and troops into others territories and these are small invasions and or attacks if they go into another nations territory.

Tolkeen was not part of any collation that attacked the CS nor did they actively promote terrorist against the CS. So you are misdirecting.

Source?

Sedition page 100 in 49 PA, Tolkeen was suspected of backing the Mok Braun takeover of the Old Chicago Rift. I see no reason to discount that, since FoM was splintered and Dunsconless at the time.

Sedition page 101 we also know that in 70 PA, the "coalition of several independent groups" included brigands with loose ties to Tolkeen. They could have been born in Tolkeen, come from Tolkeen, traded with Tolkeen, associated with Tolkeen communities, or associated with people from Tolkeen. The full extent is not clear.

The 71PA entry is also interesting to look at. We are told that Karl does build permanent outposts inside the borders of old Minesota, that he is fine with a show of force, confronting Tolkeen. Considering that his distrust of Tolkeen is healthy, this seems like a wise move to protect the CS.

We are told that Tolkeen correctly predicts the beginning of a downward spiral to total war. What we are not told though, is who is at fault for the spiral.

The problem with Tolkeen is that after a single ambassador is sent back to them in a body bag, they just "know" that the time for talking is "gone forever".

Really, Tolkeen?

I mean, did you even bother to investigate the death or wonder who was at fault for it? Are we told the CS killed the diplomat, or do people just assume that?

What if Dunscon had the diplomat killed because he loves the idea of the CS taking out Tolkeen?

What if the diplomat tripped and fell on a vibro-blade?

Due to a single death, with no context at all, Tolkeen's policy is to meet ANY military personnel in its territory with lethal force.

I believe RCSG scientists are military personnel. I think the CS probably also has military medics. CS diplomats are also probably part of the military structure. According to Erin Tarn, patrolling SAMAS squads have rescued unaligned villages subject to supernatural monsters. I guess Tolkeen attacks those guys too!

So due to 1 diplomat's death, Tolkeen probably started shooting at ALL of the CS diplomats or aid workers. This was also the "relatively defensive, almost pacifistic" Tolkeen, 17 years before Gravander died. Think of how much worse this got with Creed. I'm actually surprised it took over 15 years for the CS to officially invade the place.

The number of people in the nation if they all left would be to much of a strain for most of NA, it is more than just planning ahead they need food and shelters and most nations do not have large surplus of that in rifts.

This is a city of mages, someone out there has got to know "Create Bread and Milk" from PF, surely. That's not exactly a complete diet but it's enough to tide people over until they can get the earth warlocks setting up some enhanced farming.

A combination of 'Create Wood' and 'Ironwood' would allow MDC log cabins to be set up. PPE donated from people would help cover this, as would a simple ley line if they set up along it.

It is very feasible to do all of this, but you need to dedicate the proper effort to it, and Tolkeen didn't. They were more concerned with killing the CS and defending their pride than their people.

So your solution to not go to war is send your strongest men to your boarders to cover peoples escape, yea there is no chance the Cs would misread that and attack.

You wouldn't have to go right to the borders of Minnesota to cover an escape. I was thinking more the borders of the city, no the kingdom.

In addition the Cs command had a personal grudge against Tolkeen and the people in it, they may not have let them escape.

"Oh look, our enemies are leaving, let's waste resources and attack them on the way out to discourage our enemies from running away from us in the future so that they will fight to the death and destroy our property".

During the final siege the CS leveled and destroyed every small town and village they came a crossed including the all human no magic pro CS ones. Even if the humans where not fighting and would have liked to join the CS they got attacked.

Which all-human no-magic pro-CS towns are we talking about? I will need to review this. More familiar with the first 4 SoT books since I had them longer than the last 3.

This is one of those 'casualties of war' situations to me. Sometimes to bomb a terrorist, you tolerate some innocents in the area also getting bombed, for the greater good.

Pretty sure that Tolkeen fighters were hiding in these small towns and ambushing CS as they passed through which is why they needed to deal with the threats, to avoid getting hit from the sides or the back.

Did the RMB not mention sending troops beyond there borders in patrols? And here I thought that was how most hostile encounters started.

Think it was SOT 1 that mention that some towns where pro CS if I recall right it was mentioned around the adventure in a town with a vampire.

There is more to the logistics of refugees than just food and water. A large population without a job leads to higher crime rate, there is the matter of transport and protection. There is a mater of space for them to live, sanitation and medical needs. Many refugees do not have high demand skills as more people compete for the same number of paying jobs pay drops and demand for products goes up so does cost. Then as local workers loose jobs to refugees this breads resentment. (such as the Mexicans faced.)

The potential to live without food is there with magic but I do not know of any by the books kingdoms that rely on it.

Claiming lands in Rifts has many risks as does holding them.

The reason I said that the CS would fallow the Tolkeen refuges if they had no fight to take the land was the CS had a personal grudge with Tolkeen. So if the people from the nation went to say Lazlo the CS would see them as supporting the part of tolkeen has a problem. As the suffered no loss of troops and combat power they would be inclined to pursue and kill there foes. So Lazlo would not likely have years but maybe months at most before they felt the CS boots in Tolkeens place.

[Blue_Lion]

So wait the existence of 1 high level spell changes how a nation thinks.

It does mean that some members would be aware of the option to escape easily, and how they could evacuate people with this tool.

Admittedly, the upper echelon of Tolkeen might have hidden the existence of this spell from their people so they thought there was no easy way out.

Only goes to show how evil the rulership of Tolkeen was though, if they did that.

For a point of consideration, per Siege on Tolkeen 6 (Final Siege) page 92 the Scrupulous Human Techno-Wizard ,e,ber pf tje Circle of Twelve named Malik Savant knows the Circle of Travel spell. He opposed the war and supported evacuation. If anyone was equipped to do this CoT evacuation, it was him.

Malik probably learned it from Baarrtk Krror, who also knows it. That this did not happen is testimony to Malik being over-ruled by the others.

The main problem is that he only got to do this too late in the game. If he had been given this chance earlier on and allowed to dedicate more resources to it, Tolkeen's people could've been long-gone before the CS showed up.

The whole feel and text is that was that war with the CS was inevitable means they felt they had no choice.

Who felt this? Guys like Robert Creed knew they had a choice, they just felt compelled to stand and fight on principle.

But lets say that they did evacuate without fighting before the war and went to near by nation such as Lazlo (not that Lazlo could take them) then when the CS invaded their territory with no resistance they would fallow the fleeing mages and attack Lazlo.

Eventually, sure, given a few decades. Lazlo's way further off than Tolkeen, I'm not aware of it being a former member of the Federation of Magic, it's helping out with the Xiticix genocide, it isn't suspected in the Old Bones revival or the Joseph Prosek assassination. It would not be a target for a long while, the CS would probably more to focus on the Kingdom of Brass and Dweomer, if they could find either of them.

The amount of time it would take to invade Lazlo would give Lazlo a similarly adequate amount of time to evacuate or alter their policies to be acceptable to the CS.

Tolkeen knew from CS posturing that the CS was planning to attack before the folly there is no evidence that they used any dark magic they relied on defensive ability to withstand the assault then attacked with what was on hand to drive back the small CS force.

When Mercs 67 mentions "magic war machines unleashed by Tolkeen", what do you think it was referring to? Sounds a heck of a lot like what eventually became known to us as the Juggernauts. I wouldn't initially think 'oh, probably just some wing boards' hearing that. He is described at the time as saying that teaching the Coalition the meaning of fear is only the beginning.

As of 89PA, this gave the CS complete justification to invade, with threats like that being made. Had the defense/pacifist faction won out, they might not have invaded.

The CS did invade Minnesota and obliterate 6 villages in 70 PA. It was a time of mourning, without any solid leadership. CS Military High Command only ordered raids on communities outside CS borders who harbor/trade with mages/D-Bees/enemies. High Command is not describing as ordering obliteration. As soon as Tolkeen responded to stop this, Cabot took control and backed off and held the CS together another 1 1/3 years until Karl got elected Chairman.

A key time to look at would be 88 PA, in Sedition page 102. Post-Gravandar and the 2 factions, one wanting to continue defensive/pacifist policies and another wanting to militarize and be aggressive with the CS. The CS increased military buildup on Minnesota borders at this time. Creed got appointed in 89 PA as a militant leader. This is about 19 years since (probably rogue elements of) the CS had obliterated the 6 villages in Minnesota, prior to Karl's leadership.

We're also told on page 101 that Karl's hatred and distrust of Tolkeen is 'healthy'

AS to CS attacks before that the CS often sends patrols and troops into others territories and these are small invasions and or attacks if they go into another nations territory.

Tolkeen was not part of any collation that attacked the CS nor did they actively promote terrorist against the CS. So you are misdirecting.

Source?

Sedition page 100 in 49 PA, Tolkeen was suspected of backing the Mok Braun takeover of the Old Chicago Rift. I see no reason to discount that, since FoM was splintered and Dunsconless at the time.

Sedition page 101 we also know that in 70 PA, the "coalition of several independent groups" included brigands with loose ties to Tolkeen. They could have been born in Tolkeen, come from Tolkeen, traded with Tolkeen, associated with Tolkeen communities, or associated with people from Tolkeen. The full extent is not clear.

The 71PA entry is also interesting to look at. We are told that Karl does build permanent outposts inside the borders of old Minesota, that he is fine with a show of force, confronting Tolkeen. Considering that his distrust of Tolkeen is healthy, this seems like a wise move to protect the CS.

We are told that Tolkeen correctly predicts the beginning of a downward spiral to total war. What we are not told though, is who is at fault for the spiral.

The problem with Tolkeen is that after a single ambassador is sent back to them in a body bag, they just "know" that the time for talking is "gone forever".

Really, Tolkeen?

I mean, did you even bother to investigate the death or wonder who was at fault for it? Are we told the CS killed the diplomat, or do people just assume that?

What if Dunscon had the diplomat killed because he loves the idea of the CS taking out Tolkeen?

What if the diplomat tripped and fell on a vibro-blade?

Due to a single death, with no context at all, Tolkeen's policy is to meet ANY military personnel in its territory with lethal force.

I believe RCSG scientists are military personnel. I think the CS probably also has military medics. CS diplomats are also probably part of the military structure. According to Erin Tarn, patrolling SAMAS squads have rescued unaligned villages subject to supernatural monsters. I guess Tolkeen attacks those guys too!

So due to 1 diplomat's death, Tolkeen probably started shooting at ALL of the CS diplomats or aid workers. This was also the "relatively defensive, almost pacifistic" Tolkeen, 17 years before Gravander died. Think of how much worse this got with Creed. I'm actually surprised it took over 15 years for the CS to officially invade the place.

The number of people in the nation if they all left would be to much of a strain for most of NA, it is more than just planning ahead they need food and shelters and most nations do not have large surplus of that in rifts.

This is a city of mages, someone out there has got to know "Create Bread and Milk" from PF, surely. That's not exactly a complete diet but it's enough to tide people over until they can get the earth warlocks setting up some enhanced farming.

A combination of 'Create Wood' and 'Ironwood' would allow MDC log cabins to be set up. PPE donated from people would help cover this, as would a simple ley line if they set up along it.

It is very feasible to do all of this, but you need to dedicate the proper effort to it, and Tolkeen didn't. They were more concerned with killing the CS and defending their pride than their people.

So your solution to not go to war is send your strongest men to your boarders to cover peoples escape, yea there is no chance the Cs would misread that and attack.

You wouldn't have to go right to the borders of Minnesota to cover an escape. I was thinking more the borders of the city, no the kingdom.

In addition the Cs command had a personal grudge against Tolkeen and the people in it, they may not have let them escape.

"Oh look, our enemies are leaving, let's waste resources and attack them on the way out to discourage our enemies from running away from us in the future so that they will fight to the death and destroy our property".

During the final siege the CS leveled and destroyed every small town and village they came a crossed including the all human no magic pro CS ones. Even if the humans where not fighting and would have liked to join the CS they got attacked.

Which all-human no-magic pro-CS towns are we talking about? I will need to review this. More familiar with the first 4 SoT books since I had them longer than the last 3.

This is one of those 'casualties of war' situations to me. Sometimes to bomb a terrorist, you tolerate some innocents in the area also getting bombed, for the greater good.

Pretty sure that Tolkeen fighters were hiding in these small towns and ambushing CS as they passed through which is why they needed to deal with the threats, to avoid getting hit from the sides or the back.

Did the RMB not mention sending troops beyond there borders in patrols? And here I thought that was how most hostile encounters started.

Think it was SOT 1 that mention that some towns where pro CS if I recall right it was mentioned around the adventure in a town with a vampire.

There is more to the logistics of refugees than just food and water. A large population without a job leads to higher crime rate, there is the matter of transport and protection. There is a mater of space for them to live, sanitation and medical needs. Many refugees do not have high demand skills as more people compete for the same number of paying jobs pay drops and demand for products goes up so does cost. Then as local workers loose jobs to refugees this breads resentment. (such as the Mexicans faced.)

The potential to live without food is there with magic but I do not know of any by the books kingdoms that rely on it.

Claiming lands in Rifts has many risks as does holding them.

The reason I said that the CS would fallow the Tolkeen refuges if they had no fight to take the land was the CS had a personal grudge with Tolkeen. So if the people from the nation went to say Lazlo the CS would see them as supporting the part of tolkeen has a problem. As the suffered no loss of troops and combat power they would be inclined to pursue and kill there foes. So Lazlo would not likely have years but maybe months at most before they felt the CS boots in Tolkeens place.

[Alrik Vas]

I believe they do follow the refugees, actually. The ones going west are hunted in Aftermath. The Juice and Cyberknight bros escort them.

[Blue_Lion]

This is not my personal point of view, but something others have pointed out:

Tolkeen shouldn't have to move. The CS was being a bully. These people made their homes there, not everyone could dimensional travel, so they set up where it was, to them, safest in a bad, bad world. Now they're expected to give it up or fight for it?

No it seems that they are expected to simply give it up and move.
The argument I am seeing here is that some how choosing to defend themselves from an aggressor makes them the bad guy some how.....

That is a false logic, as self defense does not make you the bad guy. How you do it can. So defending themselves was not the problem but how they did it. Although I can understand why they did it I do not think they chose the best path to defend themselves.

I would also point out as this is a topic about the CS that the Cyberknights that fought often did so for a few reason 1 join the lessor of two evils to stop the spread of evil(tolkeen was not expansionist like CS), 2 the evil CS needed to be stopped, or 3 to protect noncombatants caught between the CS and Tolkeen.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, but that divided the knights and more or less made them ineffective.

I think all beings have right of self-defense. Though yeah, there's a difference between fending off an attacker at the point of aggression and blowing up his house to scare him into submission.

[Shark_Force]

"Monster-infested planet" seems like a pretty evident drawback.

not particularly. anywhere has troubles. tolkeen was never noted for having particularly major problems with monsters; they've got enough force to generally speaking keep the monsters from being a problem. in much the same way, earth of today has a lot of bears, wolves, lions, tigers, and other animals which can kill a typical human with relative ease (even today in south america, jaguars are a fairly large worry as i understand it). we could argue that the earth is a pretty dangerous place, but since we have the tools to largely deal with that danger, in spite of the fact that there are creatures around which could relatively easily kill individuals, we largely do not see people dying to mountain lion attacks or similar with any great amount of frequency.

in much the same way, if you have access to powerful psychics, a literal army of dragons, thousands of elementals (because you have thousands of warlocks), powerful and common techno-wizardry devices, etc... well, sure there're monsters, and they're probably a problem for someone. but it seems unlkely that the someone they were a problem for would be tolkeen as a nation.

[Killer Cyborg]

Guess you're not counting Xiticix and such.

[Alrik Vas]

The X-bugs are a bIgger, more different problem, though. I don't see a lot of hub-hub regarding anyone exterminating them. Even Lazlo's getting in on that act. Tolkeen, in the face if sudden, rapid X-bug expansion, I believe, would have picked up sticks pretty fast.

[Shark_Force]

Guess you're not counting Xiticix and such.

we don't know if the CS was a problem when tolkeen was founded, but we *do* know that the xiticix were not there (or at least, not a major problem) when tolkeen was founded, because we know that the CS was threatening to brutally murder them for something like 15 years (which would set that as a bare minimum for the date of founding... though honestly, probably earlier because if they got a death threat on day 1, they would presumably have moved on day 2).

at the time of the RMB being published, the organization that had the highest estimate for xiticix population was the CS at ~60,000 (which presumably included workers as well, so they weren't even all warriors). most assumed 20,000 although the book does mention some wilderness scouts claimed hundreds of thousands.

*nobody* was saying there were millions of them, let alone the hundreds of millions that are indicated in some places. and that isn't even 15 years in the past as far as the siege on tolkeen is concerned; going back 15 years, estimates were probably even lower.

and honestly, if you have a thousand adult dragons, i don't think even 60,000 xiticix are that big of a threat (not all warriors, and workers in the RMB were pretty weak offensively what with being able to deal 1d6 MD on a power punch; very slow MDC regeneration, and they'd have a hard time reloading all those guns faster than dragons recover their MDC and just come back and slaughter them). you wouldn't necessarily want to get into a slugfest with them, but since dragons can teleport, hit-and-run should be an option.

at the time of tolkeen's founding, it is quite possible that nobody had even heard of the xiticix.

[Alrik Vas]

Let's not talk about how to fight the bugs. It's really not for this thread.

Though, my.point from before still stands. If Tolkeen were still around when the bugs exploded into the billions population wise, and they were in the path of the expansion...They would move.

[Killer Cyborg]

Guess you're not counting Xiticix and such.

we don't know if the CS was a problem when tolkeen was founded, but we *do* know that the xiticix were not there (or at least, not a major problem) when tolkeen was founded, because we know that the CS was threatening to brutally murder them for something like 15 years (which would set that as a bare minimum for the date of founding... though honestly, probably earlier because if they got a death threat on day 1, they would presumably have moved on day 2).

Right.
But they became pretty darned well aware of it over time, and it's not like it was any kind of secret that Rifts Earth has Rifts that monsters fairly regularly come through.
You don't think that, if you were living in Tolkeen for over a decade, and living on Rifts Earth for your entire life, and you knew about interdimensional travel, and you knew that there were nice, quiet, unpopulated worlds out there for the taking, that you might have had the thought at some point, "Man, I think I'll put MY house on the flower-planet Zebor, and just commute to my job in Tolkeen by circle"....?
Or anything like that?

Hell, I don't even live in a bad neighborhood or anything, but if I had access to dimensional teleportation, I'd sure as heck have my real house be in some other dimension, and make this address just a front for my comings and goings when I felt like being social.

[Avighna]

Guess you're not counting Xiticix and such.

we don't know if the CS was a problem when tolkeen was founded, but we *do* know that the xiticix were not there (or at least, not a major problem) when tolkeen was founded, because we know that the CS was threatening to brutally murder them for something like 15 years (which would set that as a bare minimum for the date of founding... though honestly, probably earlier because if they got a death threat on day 1, they would presumably have moved on day 2).

Right.
But they became pretty darned well aware of it over time, and it's not like it was any kind of secret that Rifts Earth has Rifts that monsters fairly regularly come through.
You don't think that, if you were living in Tolkeen for over a decade, and living on Rifts Earth for your entire life, and you knew about interdimensional travel, and you knew that there were nice, quiet, unpopulated worlds out there for the taking, that you might have had the thought at some point, "Man, I think I'll put MY house on the flower-planet Zebor, and just commute to my job in Tolkeen by circle"....?
Or anything like that?

Hell, I don't even live in a bad neighborhood or anything, but if I had access to dimensional teleportation, I'd sure as heck have my real house be in some other dimension, and make this address just a front for my comings and goings when I felt like being social.

I think you're making a number of assumptions that may not be well founded.

1. That there is an easily accessible and peaceful world to port to... That has everything Tolkeen needs. The Incan gods ran away from the mechanoids to land on a world where they didn't have enough PPE to sustain themselves. Tolkeen is filled with powerful magic users who need a PPE rich world in order to practice their arts. There simply aren't many of those is existence which is why so many forces have actually chosen to come to, or stay on rifts earth. Add to that the need to move a whole city state and you have greater problems of logistics.

2. While there are lots of people in Tolkeen who are not of earth, there are many to whom it is home. Many are rifts earth native humans who want their homeworld to remain their world. Many others were brought there by the ricts, but know not how to get to their original home, and maybe a "home" they never knew except in the stories of their elders.

3. Everyone who thought it was wise to leave probably left already. This means the remainder population was more self-reinforcing of the idea to stay and fight. The CS had to dedicate a massive portion of its forces to this fight, much more than had been mobilized before. While the relative strength of forces may have been known. The idea that so much of it would be levied against Tolkeen may not have been truly understood. After all there are many threats out there.

[Tor]

Astral Kingdoms not being a thing until Nightspawn.

NS/NB was around by the time KS wrote SoT though, and Psyscape has apparently been one for centuries. One gets the impression that Dyval might also be this, or the place the Spirit West deities took their people.

[flatline]

Astral Kingdoms not being a thing until Nightspawn.

NS/NB was around by the time KS wrote SoT though, and Psyscape has apparently been one for centuries. One gets the impression that Dyval might also be this, or the place the Spirit West deities took their people.

Are there any Rifts OCCs that can create astral realms/kingdoms/whatever?

If not, why do you think that the ability to create private sub-dimensions would have been available to Tolkeen?

[eliakon]

Guess you're not counting Xiticix and such.

we don't know if the CS was a problem when tolkeen was founded, but we *do* know that the xiticix were not there (or at least, not a major problem) when tolkeen was founded, because we know that the CS was threatening to brutally murder them for something like 15 years (which would set that as a bare minimum for the date of founding... though honestly, probably earlier because if they got a death threat on day 1, they would presumably have moved on day 2).

Right.
But they became pretty darned well aware of it over time, and it's not like it was any kind of secret that Rifts Earth has Rifts that monsters fairly regularly come through.
You don't think that, if you were living in Tolkeen for over a decade, and living on Rifts Earth for your entire life, and you knew about interdimensional travel, and you knew that there were nice, quiet, unpopulated worlds out there for the taking, that you might have had the thought at some point, "Man, I think I'll put MY house on the flower-planet Zebor, and just commute to my job in Tolkeen by circle"....?
Or anything like that?

Hell, I don't even live in a bad neighborhood or anything, but if I had access to dimensional teleportation, I'd sure as heck have my real house be in some other dimension, and make this address just a front for my comings and goings when I felt like being social.

How do you plan to commute?
Are you going to open a dimensional portal and make it permanent with a diabolist ward? (so now the CS has a path to your new world too....) Because I am not aware of any other ways that are 100% effective and even 98% chance of not having instant death and disaster means that on average I will run into a critical failure in less than 6months of commuting.....I don't know about you but that doesn't sound 'safe' to me.....

[Tor]

That does offer something fairly unique.

Tolkeen just needs to get their hands on a Nazca Line Maker with the top-secret 'create ley line spell', then you can use it at any existing nexus to make it into a triangle.

Tolkeen shouldn't have to move. The CS was being a bully.

Tolkeen was building up a bunch of war machines, do you expect the CS to just wait and get attacked like last time? Tolkeen was following in the footsteps of the Great City so this time they got pre-empted. It's not bullying, it's self defense. Tolkeen waved off any chance to negotiate with the CS and started engaging with their military whenever encountered in Minnesota. They initiated these hostilities, and used a diplomat's death as an excuse. Guy probably tripped and cracked his head falling out of a hover car, and Creed's faction couldn't have been happier since they finally got the excuse they were gunning for.

The argument I am seeing here is that some how choosing to defend themselves from an aggressor makes them the bad guy some how.....

I'm going to posit that the CS are not the aggressors. Tolkeen aggressed first by attacking the CS military, and through the reckless anarchy they permit to exist in their land.

49 PA: Tolkeen suspected of supporting terrorist sect setting up in Old Chicago

70 PA: Tolkeen threatens "retaliation" when the CS obliterates 6 towns in Minnesota while the CS is routing out the assassins of their Chairman. Apparently Minnesota is "their territory". The assassins of Joseph Prosek are found to have ties with Tolkeen, and since Tolkeen is taking credit for Minnesota, they are taking responsibility for the actions of terrorists operating there whom they failed to regulate.

71 PA: Karl is elected and reasonably establishes outposts within old Minnesota to protect the Coalition States. Tolkeen decides to stop talking with the CS and opts to meet ANY military personnel of the Coalition in their territory with lethal force.

88 PA: A faction that wishes to militarize Tolkeen and become aggressive with the CS wings the kingship for Creed. He says teaching the CS fear is only the beginning. They begin recruiting practitioners of magic "of all kinds" (witches? necromancers? soul harvesters?). Rather than allow free market, Creed ORDERS industry to make military items. Convinces his populace to "welcome war".

100 PA: Creed is cruel, hard, merciless, unforgiving. He's assembling cronies from other dimensions. Rumors of consorting with Neuron Beasts and Brodkil.

101 PA: The CS learns of the magical machines and weapons of war that Tolkeen's been building, possibly for 13 years now.

103 PA: Skeleton Raiders raid locations in 'Tolkeen territory' in Minnesota. The 'siege' effectively begins.

104 PA: Chalk's unauthorized missile strike.

105 PA: Tolkeen sucks up a bunch of Juicer Uprising survivors, 'hungry for revenge' folks, never mind that the CS was offering something they thought would extend Juicer lifespans and that they were all duped by aliens, let's blame the humans.

106 PA: CS officially begins the siege, preventing exit/enter of Minnesota borders. Monstrosities summoned from other dimensions by Tolkeenites.

Seems to me like Tolkeen is at fault for:

1) not accepting any of the terms offered to the Great City when the CS was negotiating with them, back when Tolkeen was part of GC's FoM
2) not policing their lands properly
3) threatening the CS when they come to do this policing in their stead
4) refusing to talk with the CS
5) attacking their military units no matter what
6) adopting pro-terrorism ("teach fear") and pro-war sentiments
7) wrecklessly allowing even the worse kind of mages to be recruited to them
making deals with interdimensional supernatural creatures of evil

This all progressed over time, but it was layered on top of errors they were progressively at fault for.

Did the RMB not mention sending troops beyond there borders in patrols? And here I thought that was how most hostile encounters started.

RMBp139 has Erin Tarn write #10 "Minnesota, a place under siege!", but I do not know how much stock we should put in that woman's words. Especially since this is unauthorized so we don't even know if she stands behind what she allegedly wrote here.

Even she admits that there are 'Minnesota human neighbours', bitter while northern D-Bee towns prosper, perhaps at the expense of their southern human neighbours. Who knows if they are damming up rivers or other stuff?

What is confusing is that there is an "Editor's Note" but I am not sure if that is supposed to mean Alex or Thom or if it was the editor who compiled Tarn's letters into a book without unauthorization.

It mentions August 101 PA that troops have been dispatched "to Minnesota". Which seems fine to me. There are human towns there who are bitter and probably would welcome the CS.

It's one thing for the Kingdom of Tolkeen to claim Minneapolis, but all of the surrounding regions as well? Who gave them that kind of authority over these human towns? Maybe they don't want to be ruled over by dragons and mages?

Tarn says that Psi-Stalkers and Dog Packs 'progress ever northward' and they do recon and S+D missions. So what? Minnesota has Xiticix problems, maybe they were just dealing with that to protect the human towns because the City of Tolkeen wasn't protecting the people in the territories they claimed to hold authority over.

Tarn even says that Xiticix scouting parties were reported in Minesota. She even posits "Perhaps the CS has decided to eliminate the potential alien threat".

So if anything, even though Tolkeen threatened the CS, even though they confront the CS with lethal force and refuse to speak with them, the CS troops bravely venture forth into hostile territories to battle an alien menace and save the innocent humans of Minnesota from these bugs. They're basically helping Tolkeen but Tolkeen still assaults them in the midst of it!

Think it was SOT 1 that mention that some towns where pro CS if I recall right it was mentioned around the adventure in a town with a vampire.

Yup, the Hamlet of Vosberg, page 122-126.

All the more reason for the CS to establish outposts and a presence, to protect these southern towns.

You think vampires could set up that easily in an area under CS control? This is an example of what horrible care that Tolkeen is taking of Minnesota. The CS had to step in, to protect innocent humans from vampires.

There is more to the logistics of refugees than just food and water. A large population without a job leads to higher crime rate

They can all have jobs building new houses with magically-created wood and tilling new fields.

there is the matter of transport and protection.

Circle of Travel is adequate transport to get there, odds are you can transport over horses with that spell if you need them.

There is a mater of space for them to live, sanitation and medical needs.

Magic makes this all seem pretty easy. MDC Ironwood would be very easy to build with, able to support more weight and stuff. There's a cleanliness spell and you can have earth and water elementals route rivers to wash gunk away and Create Water to supplement that. Lots of healing spells too.

Many refugees do not have high demand skills as more people compete for the same number of paying jobs pay drops and demand for products goes up so does cost. Then as local workers loose jobs to refugees this breads resentment. (such as the Mexicans faced.)

Tolkeenites can create their own jobs, and set up in new locations to avoid competing too much with their neighbours. Setting up in competetive places like Lazlo would only be temporary, and growing places like New Lazlo or Magestar would welcome the influx.

The potential to live without food is there with magic but I do not know of any by the books kingdoms that rely on it.

You only have to do it long enough to set up your farms.

Claiming lands in Rifts has many risks as does holding them.

The CS has had to deal with these risks claiming and holding their lands and the proximity of a nation like Tolkeen far too liberal with their magic and who do not adequately police their lands hasn't helped.

The reason I said that the CS would fallow the Tolkeen refuges if they had no fight to take the land was the CS had a personal grudge with Tolkeen.

What grudge are you talking about?

They were invaded because they were militarizing against the CS, the grudge was formed in the course of the war. If they' spent effort getting out instead of building to attack, there wouldn't be a grudge.

As the suffered no loss of troops and combat power they would be inclined to pursue and kill there foes. So Lazlo would not likely have years but maybe months at most before they felt the CS boots in Tolkeens place.

Lazlo's helping kill Xiticix, Tolkeen's getting in the way and I haven't heard of them helping. Tolkeen's an ex-member of the FoM and suspected in Old Chicago terrorism, far as I know Lazlo wasn't part of the FoM and not a suspect. So I think they have more room for leeway.

If the CS focused on anything but the Xiticix I think it would be the Pecos Empire and Federation of Magic (demon-ridden Brass/Dweomer/Kingsdale/Soulharvest/Stormspire) not Lazlo.

Lazlo has plenty of time to clean up their act, stop summoning supernatural beings, get rid of their more dangerous forms of magic, make a show of good gesture, police their area, do what Great City / Tolkeen did not do, and engage in some actual diplomacy.

The CS is willing to deal with Columbia even though they have D-Bees (dwarves) and mages (Techno-Wizards). The Vanguard exist as a remnant of CS acceptance of magic (techno-wizards, LLWs, mystics, conjurers). The CS is friendly with NGR even though they don't ban magic and allow D-Bees citizenship.

It's really not impossible. Karl's going to die or get soft in his old age, Joseph is more liberal and could off the old man if he becomes a problem. Lazlo has hope.

I believe they do follow the refugees, actually. The ones going west are hunted in Aftermath. The Juice and Cyberknight bros escort them.

At this late in the game, there is good reason to suspect these supposed refugees are merely disguised regrouping guerilla fighters. The CS has dealt with supposedly innocent people lying in wait in towns to ambush them before.

The majority of innocents would've already left, those that were casualties of Tolkeen-bred ignorance of the danger are the fault of Creed, not the CS.

the CS was threatening to brutally murder them for something like 15 years (which would set that as a bare minimum for the date of founding... though honestly, probably earlier because if they got a death threat on day 1, they would presumably have moved on day 2).

No idea what you're talking about here. Tolkeen has existed since before FoM invaded Chi-Town. They were part of it, though they left because they thought it was unwise to provoke the CS (they were right). As thanks, they were excepted from Joseph's genocide, he kept it to the Magic Zone and didn't extend it northward. Tolkeen should be grateful, they could've done more to oppose their former allies and aid the CS in defense.

if you have a thousand adult dragons, i don't think even 60,000 xiticix are that big of a threat

SoT6p136 mentions Freehold as having at best 144 adults and 332 hatchlings. It's impressive but I think even a thousand warriors equipped with TK rifles could cause serious problems for them.

Are there any Rifts OCCs that can create astral realms/kingdoms/whatever?

If not, why do you think that the ability to create private sub-dimensions would have been available to Tolkeen?

Rifts is not limited to OCCs that originate here, look at all the Diabolists/Summoners littering Kingsdale.

Even if Tolkeen doesn't have someone of the required class, they could simply outsource the job. I'm sure a Millek could be convinced to do it.

World Book 10 added the Technical Skill of Lore: Psychic which includes myths and legends about the Astral Plane and Dreamstream and something called "The Enclave" which I'm drawing a blank on. There should be enough sensitives with Astral Projection (or mages with the spell) to do the required networking.

Summoners (surely Tolkeen must have a few when you look at how many are in Kingsdale) can also use the 'Summon Spirits' circle to bring "beings, monsters and travelers from the astral plane" not to mention beings from the Dreamstream. Even if you don't get a Millek right away, it's hard to believe they didn't run into some eventually.

Are you going to open a dimensional portal and make it permanent with a diabolist ward? (so now the CS has a path to your new world too....)

Although the permanence ward makes the entire phrase indestructible, I don't think it does the same to whatever surface you affix it to, so if you destroy the surface that would un-anchor the ward from the proximity of the spell, which should allow you to end it. Maybe plant a fusion block inside a crate, do the ward on the crate to tether the D-portal, explode the fusion block when you're done.

[Nox Equites]

The CS actively attacks uninvolved groups. That isn't good behavior. It might be Aberrant, but the people at the very top are Diabolic and Miscreant. They lie wholesale to encourage their population to make broad assumptions about the world and how it needs to be cleansed.

[Killer Cyborg]

Guess you're not counting Xiticix and such.

we don't know if the CS was a problem when tolkeen was founded, but we *do* know that the xiticix were not there (or at least, not a major problem) when tolkeen was founded, because we know that the CS was threatening to brutally murder them for something like 15 years (which would set that as a bare minimum for the date of founding... though honestly, probably earlier because if they got a death threat on day 1, they would presumably have moved on day 2).

Right.
But they became pretty darned well aware of it over time, and it's not like it was any kind of secret that Rifts Earth has Rifts that monsters fairly regularly come through.
You don't think that, if you were living in Tolkeen for over a decade, and living on Rifts Earth for your entire life, and you knew about interdimensional travel, and you knew that there were nice, quiet, unpopulated worlds out there for the taking, that you might have had the thought at some point, "Man, I think I'll put MY house on the flower-planet Zebor, and just commute to my job in Tolkeen by circle"....?
Or anything like that?

Hell, I don't even live in a bad neighborhood or anything, but if I had access to dimensional teleportation, I'd sure as heck have my real house be in some other dimension, and make this address just a front for my comings and goings when I felt like being social.

How do you plan to commute?
Are you going to open a dimensional portal and make it permanent with a diabolist ward? (so now the CS has a path to your new world too....) Because I am not aware of any other ways that are 100% effective and even 98% chance of not having instant death and disaster means that on average I will run into a critical failure in less than 6months of commuting.....I don't know about you but that doesn't sound 'safe' to me.....

That's one way. The CS wouldn't be much concern until recent years, and even then it's not like they're going to come through a rift after you.
Or use a magic circle.
Or use a TW device, if possible.
Or a spell, combined with Beat a Insurmountable Odds.

[eliakon]

Guess you're not counting Xiticix and such.

we don't know if the CS was a problem when tolkeen was founded, but we *do* know that the xiticix were not there (or at least, not a major problem) when tolkeen was founded, because we know that the CS was threatening to brutally murder them for something like 15 years (which would set that as a bare minimum for the date of founding... though honestly, probably earlier because if they got a death threat on day 1, they would presumably have moved on day 2).

Right.
But they became pretty darned well aware of it over time, and it's not like it was any kind of secret that Rifts Earth has Rifts that monsters fairly regularly come through.
You don't think that, if you were living in Tolkeen for over a decade, and living on Rifts Earth for your entire life, and you knew about interdimensional travel, and you knew that there were nice, quiet, unpopulated worlds out there for the taking, that you might have had the thought at some point, "Man, I think I'll put MY house on the flower-planet Zebor, and just commute to my job in Tolkeen by circle"....?
Or anything like that?

Hell, I don't even live in a bad neighborhood or anything, but if I had access to dimensional teleportation, I'd sure as heck have my real house be in some other dimension, and make this address just a front for my comings and goings when I felt like being social.

How do you plan to commute?
Are you going to open a dimensional portal and make it permanent with a diabolist ward? (so now the CS has a path to your new world too....) Because I am not aware of any other ways that are 100% effective and even 98% chance of not having instant death and disaster means that on average I will run into a critical failure in less than 6months of commuting.....I don't know about you but that doesn't sound 'safe' to me.....

That's one way. The CS wouldn't be much concern until recent years, and even then it's not like they're going to come through a rift after you.
Or use a magic circle.
Or use a TW device, if possible.
Or a spell, combined with Beat a Insurmountable Odds.

Well the Circle needs a Beating Dragon Heart....
TW Devices would have the same % problem...
Beat Insurmountable Odds explicitly can not be used in conjunction with magic....
Taking us back to the 'the only way to safely regularly commute between dimensions is to make permanent portals' (which in game require either the use of Wards carved from the bones of a Demon/Devil/Dragon/Godling, the expenditure of Permanent PPE, or the permanent sacrifice of Souls.) AND the permanent ones made with wards cant be closed ever. I am failing to see how this is 'safer' in any way, shape or form.

[Killer Cyborg]

You don't think that, if you were living in Tolkeen for over a decade, and living on Rifts Earth for your entire life, and you knew about interdimensional travel, and you knew that there were nice, quiet, unpopulated worlds out there for the taking, that you might have had the thought at some point, "Man, I think I'll put MY house on the flower-planet Zebor, and just commute to my job in Tolkeen by circle"....?
Or anything like that?

Hell, I don't even live in a bad neighborhood or anything, but if I had access to dimensional teleportation, I'd sure as heck have my real house be in some other dimension, and make this address just a front for my comings and goings when I felt like being social.

I think you're making a number of assumptions that may not be well founded.

1. That there is an easily accessible and peaceful world to port to... That has everything Tolkeen needs. The Incan gods ran away from the mechanoids to land on a world where they didn't have enough PPE to sustain themselves. Tolkeen is filled with powerful magic users who need a PPE rich world in order to practice their arts. There simply aren't many of those is existence which is why so many forces have actually chosen to come to, or stay on rifts earth. Add to that the need to move a whole city state and you have greater problems of logistics.

I'd say that in a Megaverse filled with infinite dimensions, that there are bound to be some quiet places here or there.
Rifts Earth doesn't seem to have much more PPE than most other Palladium dimensions, so I think it'd be fairly easy to find something else that works. If not, that's why you commute.

2. While there are lots of people in Tolkeen who are not of earth, there are many to whom it is home.

You've never known anybody who moved away from home...?

3. Everyone who thought it was wise to leave probably left already.

If you read my post, you might notice that I wasn't even talking about leaving, just commuting and such.

[Tor]

The CS actively attacks uninvolved groups. That isn't good behavior.

It can be good behavior if you attack someone you THINK is involved, even if they turn out not to be. Also kind depends on what degree of involvement we're talking about. Even if a mage isn't directly involved in a plot, they can be involved on the looser level of seducing humanity to the dark side of unstable PPE-mixing.

They lie wholesale to encourage their population to make broad assumptions about the world and how it needs to be cleansed.

An assumption, or an educated assessment?

Trying to remember what wholesale lies are told to the CS population by its leaders. Drawing a blank. Is it a lie if you believe it?

[guardiandashi]

yes the coalition tells lies wholesale.

1 ALL prerifts material is 100% banned to anyone not in the "inner Circle"

if you are caught with material books, movies (in multiple medias) etc. at best you get a warning and fines, a permanent black mark on your record, at worst you get summarily executed.

2 in lone star it does not go into explicit detail about what the censored history claims... but it explicit ally points out that the coalition has a FABRICATED history that does NOT match the truth, and they deny large parts of our history ever happened.

[Shark_Force]

why would it stand to reason that there is a peaceful plentiful dimensional location just sitting around waiting to be exploited?

if it's capable of sustaining life, odds are good that there is already life there. in order to live there, you're going to have to kick something else out.

meanwhile, your method of finding said theoretical place which probably doesn't exist... is to basically send people blind into who-knows-what, because there are a lot more dimensions that aren't peaceful happy lands with tons of natural resources and nobody interested in using them.

[Killer Cyborg]

why would it stand to reason that there is a peaceful plentiful dimensional location just sitting around waiting to be exploited?

if it's capable of sustaining life, odds are good that there is already life there. in order to live there, you're going to have to kick something else out.

Not necessarily anything threatening.
Species move into new habitats all the time where they find little to no competition.

meanwhile, your method of finding said theoretical place which probably doesn't exist...

Have fun with your theory that the majority of the Megaverse is chock-full of powerful hostiles.
If that's how you want to think about things, I doubt I can change your mind.

is to basically send people blind into who-knows-what,

Yeah... the way that Shifters and other mages and adventurers fairly often do anyway.
Heck, there's even a Tolkeen Artifact Hunter OCC, whose entire job was to gather intelligence on new dimensions, potential dimensional threats/allies, exlplore new worlds, and discover powerful magic items and technologies and such.
It's not like Tolkeenites shied away from dimensional travel.

because there are a lot more dimensions that aren't peaceful happy lands with tons of natural resources and nobody interested in using them.

Source?

[Q99]

why would it stand to reason that there is a peaceful plentiful dimensional location just sitting around waiting to be exploited?

if it's capable of sustaining life, odds are good that there is already life there. in order to live there, you're going to have to kick something else out.

meanwhile, your method of finding said theoretical place which probably doesn't exist... is to basically send people blind into who-knows-what, because there are a lot more dimensions that aren't peaceful happy lands with tons of natural resources and nobody interested in using them.

I'd say plentiful peaceful mostly empty dimensions may exist... but in turn, they'd also be pretty hard to *find*, since when someone finds them, they're gonna use 'em.

The places that are easy to get to are your Rifts Earth, Three Galaxies, even Wormwood.

Earth a million years ago was plentiful, peaceful, and empty. On the flip side, it was also not a dimensional nexus. And there was no one on this side who'd even try and open a rift until humans came along, only once the first mage arose was a rift ever going to lead here. And the easiest ones to get to are the most busy places.

So any world you can easily get to, is likely to have either natives (if they opened the other side), or other dimensional travels (if it's naturally occurring rifts), or both. Any world with neither, is likely to be very hard to get to. You likely can find some good ones, but it takes significant effort.

[Killer Cyborg]

why would it stand to reason that there is a peaceful plentiful dimensional location just sitting around waiting to be exploited?

if it's capable of sustaining life, odds are good that there is already life there. in order to live there, you're going to have to kick something else out.

meanwhile, your method of finding said theoretical place which probably doesn't exist... is to basically send people blind into who-knows-what, because there are a lot more dimensions that aren't peaceful happy lands with tons of natural resources and nobody interested in using them.

I'd say plentiful peaceful mostly empty dimensions may exist... but in turn, they'd also be pretty hard to *find*, since when someone finds them, they're gonna use 'em.

The places that are easy to get to are your Rifts Earth, Three Galaxies, even Wormwood.

Earth a million years ago was plentiful, peaceful, and empty. On the flip side, it was also not a dimensional nexus. And there was no one on this side who'd even try and open a rift until humans came along, only once the first mage arose was a rift ever going to lead here. And the easiest ones to get to are the most busy places.

So any world you can easily get to, is likely to have either natives (if they opened the other side), or other dimensional travels (if it's naturally occurring rifts), or both. Any world with neither, is likely to be very hard to get to. You likely can find some good ones, but it takes significant effort.

According to DB7, knowledge of the Phase World, Palladium, and HU Earth is "easily available" in any of the magic cities, including Tolkeen (or what's left of it now). It's "common knowledge and word on the street" type stuff.
Granted, those places aren't necessarily paradises, but the majority of HU Earth seems to be thriving, in spite of the occasional super-being attack and such. Palladium would also be a pretty nice place to settle, if you picked the right part of it.
Yes, those places have populations, but there are plenty of parallel Earths (i.e., infinite), and some of them are bound to be unpopulated by sapients and/or monsters. Life is statistically less likely to thrive than not, and intelligent life even less so.
I see no reason not to assume that dimensions are kind of like Rifts Earth areas; there are any number of relatively peaceful places, it's just that the authors don't like to talk about them, and we ARE discussing the central topic of the original post.

[Tor]

yes the coalition tells lies wholesale.

1 ALL prerifts material is 100% banned to anyone not in the "inner Circle"

if you are caught with material books, movies (in multiple medias) etc. at best you get a warning and fines, a permanent black mark on your record, at worst you get summarily executed.

Banning access to information is not lying.

2 in lone star it does not go into explicit detail about what the censored history claims... but it explicit ally points out that the coalition has a FABRICATED history that does NOT match the truth, and they deny large parts of our history ever happened.

Is this word-of-god or is it a statement given from a character? Would like to check the page you refer to.

[flatline]

Don't they claim to have invented all the golden age stuff they stumbled into? Like the SAMAS?

[cosmicfish]

Quick poll: Has anyone convinced anyone to change their position in this thread? Show of hands, speak up if you feel your opinion of the CS has materially changed from your first post.

[flatline]

Quick poll: Has anyone convinced anyone to change their position in this thread? Show of hands, speak up if you feel your opinion of the CS has materially changed from your first post.

I still think it's a meaningless question without specifying whose perspective we're supposed to be examining. So, no, I haven't changed my mind at all.

But the discussion has been somewhat interesting at times, which is about as good as most threads get.