Cormal versus Dominator's Boiaw-powered Star Fortresses

[Tor]

Do you think Impervious to Energy wouldprotect Cormal (DB12p103) from the three prime weapons of the Star Fortress (DB13p49) if it tried to shoot various parts of Cormal?

1) Anti-Matter Cannons (light-speed frozen anti-hydrogen, whatever that is)
2) Heavy Beam Weaponry (nature unclear)
3) Retractible Beam Turrets (nature unclear)

DB13p48 mentions "Cosmic Energy Weapons" and that 'directed cosmic energy' has these properties

protons, alpha particles and heavy nuclei
behaves like a laser
similar wave mechanics to a particle beam
affects magical constructs
shares many of the supernatural attributes of sunlight
contains no photons

Not knowing the nature of 2 and 3 (beam weaponry/turrets) I am inclined to assume that it fires directed cosmic energy. although I guess it could be something else. I am not sure what to make of the anti-matter cannons though, since they sound similar but different.

In either case, I don't know what either of these things would do against Impervious to Energy.

To use any weapons against Cormal, a Star Fortress would have to get in range of it's gravity nodes, limiting it to sub-FTL speeds if it wanted to escape. It can only go Mach 4 so at Mach 15, Cormal would close range at Mach 11. I'm just wondering what capacity a Star Fortress would have to damage/destroy those Gravity Glands to escape before Cormal could get close enough to begin attacking the Fortress with his shorter-range systems.

Even though listed under "MDC by Location" I can't see MDC assigned to the glands, so I figure it's 5x that of a normal Demon Star like the other organs, so each of the 8 (normally Demon Stars have 150-650 glands but Cormal's are stronger so that makes up for it I think) would have 1d4x5000+2500 I guess? Still a 1-shot kill for a Dominator's main guns, so you could take them out in 32 minutes.

Even the secondary guns, if we weigh this in Cormal's favor, 10 000 MD per blast versus 22500 MDC means 3 shots per node or 24 shots needed, and even at a kinda-slow rate of 1 shot per round per cannon, a Fortress has 100 cannons so... less than a melee to destroy all 8 of Cormal's Gravity Nodes if it merely has 5x as much MDC as a normal one.

That's why whether Cormal can bypass these with ItE is such a big deal. If he could, it could be one explanation why a Dominator wouldn't just come along and wreck him. Another being that Dominators might enjoy the havoc that demons are causing.

Once he advances 75 000 he could use a focused gravity beam on the Star Fortress to start drawing them in, which should close the distance even faster, though I'm not sure by how much. Once Cormal advances a further 148 000 (to within 2000 miles) it can attack with maw tentacles and energy blasts.

DB14 (Thundercloud Galaxy) pages 23-31 go into more detail about Dominator Tech, but I'm not sure which if any of this would be applicable to the Star Fortresses' first 3 weapon systems.

[Bill]

Each weapon has an arc of fire of 60 degrees, and creates a beam of energy a mile (1.6 krn) wide.

Impervious to Energy states all forms of energy then goes on to give examples. I'd say it will protect Cormal for the duration of the spell, even from a star fortress's anti-matter cannons.

[say652]

Particle beams??

Magic energy attacks??

Phase weapon??

Cosmic Energy??

[drewkitty ~..~]

Do you think Impervious to Energy would protect Cormal (DB12p103) from the three prime weapons of the Star Fortress (DB13p49) if it tried to shoot various parts of Cormal?

1) Anti-Matter Cannons (light-speed frozen anti-hydrogen, whatever that is)
2) Heavy Beam Weaponry (nature unclear)
3) Retractible Beam Turrets (nature unclear)

1) maybe......there are arguments for both sides.
2&3) yes.
Edit: the OP question is flawed in that demon planets are not 'impervious to energy'.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Do you think Impervious to Energy wouldprotect Cormal (DB12p103) from the three prime weapons of the Star Fortress (DB13p49) if it tried to shoot various parts of Cormal?

1) Anti-Matter Cannons (light-speed frozen anti-hydrogen, whatever that is)
2) Heavy Beam Weaponry (nature unclear)
3) Retractible Beam Turrets (nature unclear)

Yes.
However, the text of the Dominator's tech says it is a mix of tech and magic. So there is supporting text for GMs to rule that they damage the demon planet.

Magic energy dosn't work on Impervious to Energy and it never has, it stops magical energy just fine. you are confusing it with Invunerability the superpower.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Do you think Impervious to Energy wouldprotect Cormal (DB12p103) from the three prime weapons of the Star Fortress (DB13p49) if it tried to shoot various parts of Cormal?

1) Anti-Matter Cannons (light-speed frozen anti-hydrogen, whatever that is)
2) Heavy Beam Weaponry (nature unclear)
3) Retractible Beam Turrets (nature unclear)

DB13p48 mentions "Cosmic Energy Weapons" and that 'directed cosmic energy' has these properties

protons, alpha particles and heavy nuclei
behaves like a laser
similar wave mechanics to a particle beam
affects magical constructs
shares many of the supernatural attributes of sunlight
contains no photons

Not knowing the nature of 2 and 3 (beam weaponry/turrets) I am inclined to assume that it fires directed cosmic energy. although I guess it could be something else. I am not sure what to make of the anti-matter cannons though, since they sound similar but different.

In either case, I don't know what either of these things would do against Impervious to Energy.

To use any weapons against Cormal, a Star Fortress would have to get in range of it's gravity nodes, limiting it to sub-FTL speeds if it wanted to escape. It can only go Mach 4 so at Mach 15, Cormal would close range at Mach 11. I'm just wondering what capacity a Star Fortress would have to damage/destroy those Gravity Glands to escape before Cormal could get close enough to begin attacking the Fortress with his shorter-range systems.

Even though listed under "MDC by Location" I can't see MDC assigned to the glands, so I figure it's 5x that of a normal Demon Star like the other organs, so each of the 8 (normally Demon Stars have 150-650 glands but Cormal's are stronger so that makes up for it I think) would have 1d4x5000+2500 I guess? Still a 1-shot kill for a Dominator's main guns, so you could take them out in 32 minutes.

Even the secondary guns, if we weigh this in Cormal's favor, 10 000 MD per blast versus 22500 MDC means 3 shots per node or 24 shots needed, and even at a kinda-slow rate of 1 shot per round per cannon, a Fortress has 100 cannons so... less than a melee to destroy all 8 of Cormal's Gravity Nodes if it merely has 5x as much MDC as a normal one.

That's why whether Cormal can bypass these with ItE is such a big deal. If he could, it could be one explanation why a Dominator wouldn't just come along and wreck him. Another being that Dominators might enjoy the havoc that demons are causing.

Once he advances 75 000 he could use a focused gravity beam on the Star Fortress to start drawing them in, which should close the distance even faster, though I'm not sure by how much. Once Cormal advances a further 148 000 (to within 2000 miles) it can attack with maw tentacles and energy blasts.

DB14 (Thundercloud Galaxy) pages 23-31 go into more detail about Dominator Tech, but I'm not sure which if any of this would be applicable to the Star Fortresses' first 3 weapon systems.

Yes, all three are energy and impervious to energy stops them just fine.

[glitterboy2098]

and for those wondering..

anti-hydrogen is the antimatter version of regualr hydrogen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihydrogen

it has one positron (anti-electron) and one anti-proton, as well as various numbers of Anti-neutrons.*

basically, the antimatter cannons can be considered a kind of ion cannon, firing clumps of anti-hydrogen atoms at high velocity at things. when the clumps of anti-atoms hit they would react with the electrons, protons, and nuetrons in the matter of the target, and generate big explosions od energy release in the form of thermal energy, light, neutrino's, and radiation.

in a sense, they're like antimatter missiles without the missile.

[Tor]

Now wondering how hard it would be for a Dominator to buy TW upgrades like Impervious to Energy to protect his vehicle.

RMB never did make distinctions about added PPE costs to build these features into things with larger sizes, but then, vehicles only got so big (largest maybe being the Death's Head Transport or the Behemoth Explorer) in RMB, so it may not have been thinking ahead to miles-long spaceships.

Considering the huge advantages, you'd almost need there to be a reason not to have these features on major CCW/TGE ships, yet we don't even necessarily see them on all of the UWW ones. Even though the cost of adding these features in RMB is cheap compared to the cost of these vehicles.

Energy weapons will always have a huge in space for things like shooting down missiles or damaging force fields (I know of know way to make a force field impervious to energy) but there must be something stopping the mass ItE for spacecraft from happening.

Perhaps a distrust for Techno-Wizards or the UWW keeping some kinda monopoly on them?

[eliakon]

Now wondering how hard it would be for a Dominator to buy TW upgrades like Impervious to Energy to protect his vehicle.

RMB never did make distinctions about added PPE costs to build these features into things with larger sizes, but then, vehicles only got so big (largest maybe being the Death's Head Transport or the Behemoth Explorer) in RMB, so it may not have been thinking ahead to miles-long spaceships.

Considering the huge advantages, you'd almost need there to be a reason not to have these features on major CCW/TGE ships, yet we don't even necessarily see them on all of the UWW ones. Even though the cost of adding these features in RMB is cheap compared to the cost of these vehicles.

Energy weapons will always have a huge in space for things like shooting down missiles or damaging force fields (I know of know way to make a force field impervious to energy) but there must be something stopping the mass ItE for spacecraft from happening.

Perhaps a distrust for Techno-Wizards or the UWW keeping some kinda monopoly on them?

The implications from the books would seem to be that TW Spaceships need to be custom built from the keel up as TW vessels and that this is a very expensive process that seems to need additional resources than just a couple carats of gems and a few hours of work.
I would personally doubt that there are any TWs qualified to work on Dominator Technology in anywhere near the capacity necessary to modify their tech to have TW additions....and the Dominator's seem a particularly bad candidate for sharing their technology in the first place.

[Tor]

Could always pull an Astral Nightlord and "sure, I'll let you enhance my realm, then you will be rewarded" and kill them afterward

[eliakon]

Could always pull an Astral Nightlord and "sure, I'll let you enhance my realm, then you will be rewarded" and kill them afterward

Yeah but I don't see the Dominators being willing to train the TWs on how Elder Race Technology works, then allow them to modify their ships. Both actions seem to be contrary to the very basic core of the idea of the Dominators.

[Tor]

Do TWs even need to know how it works to tack on their doohicky? Do they need Robot Mechanics/Electronics to add Shadow Meld to a Robot Vehicle?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Is changing my answer to "No Imp. to Energy will not protect demon planets" because they are only 'resistant to energy' most forms of energy attacks. So the energy attacks Demon planets are resistant to they take only have damage from.

[eliakon]

Do TWs even need to know how it works to tack on their doohicky? Do they need Robot Mechanics/Electronics to add Shadow Meld to a Robot Vehicle?

Since as of RUE, the answer is a clear "Yes"
They explicitly need to build the device that has the power (they no-longer can simply just 'enchant' random stuff), and they must roll against the normal skills needed to build the device in question.

Thus if you can not build a Star Fortress, you can not make a TW Fortress. And if the Fortress is not built TW it can not be retroactively made into one.

Which also neatly answers the question of why the CCW doesn't use TW spaceships. Since no more than half the work on building the space ship can be done by non-TWs most places simply don't have enough Techno Wizards who are also competent ship builders to make them (or even design for them) TW space ships.

[Alrik Vas]

Do TWs even need to know how it works to tack on their doohicky? Do they need Robot Mechanics/Electronics to add Shadow Meld to a Robot Vehicle?

Since as of RUE, the answer is a clear "Yes"
They explicitly need to build the device that has the power (they no-longer can simply just 'enchant' random stuff), and they must roll against the normal skills needed to build the device in question.

Thus if you can not build a Star Fortress, you can not make a TW Fortress. And if the Fortress is not built TW it can not be retroactively made into one.

Which also neatly answers the question of why the CCW doesn't use TW spaceships. Since no more than half the work on building the space ship can be done by non-TWs most places simply don't have enough Techno Wizards who are also competent ship builders to make them (or even design for them) TW space ships.

TW's have telemechanic psionic powers. They can understand the machines they work on using those abilities, even if they don't actually have the proper skills.

[drewkitty ~..~]

TW's have telemechanic psionic powers. ...snip

Some TW's have that power, yes...not all.

Yep, I agree that the dominators wouldn't let TW's anywhere near their tech.

[eliakon]

Do TWs even need to know how it works to tack on their doohicky? Do they need Robot Mechanics/Electronics to add Shadow Meld to a Robot Vehicle?

Since as of RUE, the answer is a clear "Yes"
They explicitly need to build the device that has the power (they no-longer can simply just 'enchant' random stuff), and they must roll against the normal skills needed to build the device in question.

Thus if you can not build a Star Fortress, you can not make a TW Fortress. And if the Fortress is not built TW it can not be retroactively made into one.

Which also neatly answers the question of why the CCW doesn't use TW spaceships. Since no more than half the work on building the space ship can be done by non-TWs most places simply don't have enough Techno Wizards who are also competent ship builders to make them (or even design for them) TW space ships.

TW's have telemechanic psionic powers. They can understand the machines they work on using those abilities, even if they don't actually have the proper skills.

I am going to have to assume that the information in the books that say that Elder Race technology can not be understood by lesser races I would assume that this means that simple Telemechanics can not bypass this.
Especially important is the fact that Dominator Ships are expressly ALIVE, they regenerate because they are linked to the life essence of the Boiaw. Which suggest that they do not fall under the 'non-living machine' clause.
A GM is free to house rule how they wish of course. But the implications of the books seems to be that Elder Tech is to advanced for lesser races to understand and is not decipherable with a mere psionic ability.

[Alrik Vas]

You say it's your assumption, then say GM's can houserule.

Telemechanics says it can interface with AI's and the such, it's part object read, part telepathy. The point of it is to understand the machine while the power is in use, up to the limit of the phantom skill you gain, and the duration of the power itself.

If a GM wants to rule the power doesn't work on it, that's fine as well.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The dominators' ships can be considered to have a transferred intelligence in them, as such Tele-mech only lets the user At Most 'communicate' with the controlling intelligence. The other end of the spectrum is to consider there ship very large borgs and the ship gets a save vs psionics when Tele-mech is used on them.

AK is correct that "The point of it is to understand the machine while the power is in use,..." however, this is a generalization/commentary about why some TWs have psionic powers at all. And the understanding of the machine is blocked when there is a controlling intelligence (AI or transferred) in the device.
------------------------
What do you all think about the OP's question since the question in the OP is flawed?

[Tor]

Is changing my answer to "No Imp. to Energy will not protect demon planets" because they are only 'resistant to energy' most forms of energy attacks. So the energy attacks Demon planets are resistant to they take only have damage from.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about...

Demon Planets have some natural energy resistance, I'm talking about supplementing that with the spell.

Does something about one/two/three of the dominator weapon systems fall outside the scope of energy that ItE protects from?

[eliakon]

Is changing my answer to "No Imp. to Energy will not protect demon planets" because they are only 'resistant to energy' most forms of energy attacks. So the energy attacks Demon planets are resistant to they take only have damage from.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about...

Demon Planets have some natural energy resistance, I'm talking about supplementing that with the spell.

Does something about one/two/three of the dominator weapon systems fall outside the scope of energy that ItE protects from?

The Anti-Hydrogen beam might be considered a 'special snowflake' and not an energy attack.....maybe, if the GM wanted to do it that way.....but personally I would say its just a really fancy Particle Beam and since those are blocked it is too.....

[drewkitty ~..~]

Is changing my answer to "No Imp. to Energy will not protect demon planets" because they are only 'resistant to energy' most forms of energy attacks. So the energy attacks Demon planets are resistant to they take only have damage from.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about...

Demon Planets have some natural energy resistance, I'm talking about supplementing that with the spell.

Does something about one/two/three of the dominator weapon systems fall outside the scope of energy that ItE protects from?

The meaning of two words in the PB lexicon.
Impervious: that particular does absolutely no damage.
Resistant: that particular attack does only half damage.

You used the former while the book used the latter. As you can see Zero in much less then Half so there is a significant difference between the two.

Later in the stats for the demon planet the definition of Resistant is confirmed within its' anti-body stats.

[eliakon]

Is changing my answer to "No Imp. to Energy will not protect demon planets" because they are only 'resistant to energy' most forms of energy attacks. So the energy attacks Demon planets are resistant to they take only have damage from.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about...

Demon Planets have some natural energy resistance, I'm talking about supplementing that with the spell.

Does something about one/two/three of the dominator weapon systems fall outside the scope of energy that ItE protects from?

The meaning of two words in the PB lexicon.
Impervious: that particular does absolutely no damage.
Resistant: that particular attack does only half damage.

You used the former while the book used the latter. As you can see Zero in much less then Half so there is a significant difference between the two.

Later in the stats for the demon planet the definition of Resistant is confirmed within its' anti-body stats.

What does their natural resistance have to do with anything? They are not using their resistance, they are casting the spell Impervious to Energy on themselves. Unless you are making the claim that Impervious to Energy does not work on beings that have a natural resistance to energy, then there is no relevance what so ever to them possessing resistance.

Example provided in the interests of clarity
-Mr. Demon planet is floating along.
-Mr. Dominator flies by and takes a pot shot with his cannon. *rolls 2d6x1,000,000 and gets 10,000,000*
-Mr. Planet is resistant to energy so take 5,000,000 MD and says "In the name of all things unholy! That thing could kill me" *Casts Impervious to Energy*
-Mr. Dominator fires again. He rolls 12,000,000
-Mr. Demon Planet is Impervious to Energy and takes 0MD.

[say652]

Dominator weapons deal full damage to Cosmo knights, who are naturally highly energy resistant.

In this case tech trumps magic.

The velvetta affect is a house rule. Imho.

[eliakon]

Dominator weapons deal full damage to Cosmo knights, who are naturally highly energy resistant.

In this case tech trumps magic.

The velvetta affect is a house rule. Imho.

I am trying to find the book reference that says this.
I know that the Dominators have some weapons that fire 'Cosmic Energy'. Presumably the various 'Beam Canon' are such since their beam is not specified.
We do know that the main gun is an anti-hydrogen beam which rules out being Cosmic Energy. Also we know that their Gravity Wave weapons do not by pass the Cosmo Knights defenses.

[say652]

With the super power Invulnerablility being the ultimate in protection vs non magic or psionic damage, I HOUSE RULED anything that hurts them would have equal effect on "Impervious" targets.
If it hurts Big Blue it's gonna just Dr Weird. Js.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Is changing my answer to "No Imp. to Energy will not protect demon planets" because they are only 'resistant to energy' most forms of energy attacks. So the energy attacks Demon planets are resistant to they take only have damage from.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about...

Demon Planets have some natural energy resistance, I'm talking about supplementing that with the spell.

Does something about one/two/three of the dominator weapon systems fall outside the scope of energy that ItE protects from?

The meaning of two words in the PB lexicon.
Impervious: that particular does absolutely no damage.
Resistant: that particular attack does only half damage.

You used the former while the book used the latter. As you can see Zero in much less then Half so there is a significant difference between the two.

Later in the stats for the demon planet the definition of Resistant is confirmed within its' anti-body stats.

What does their natural resistance have to do with anything? They are not using their resistance, they are casting the spell Impervious to Energy on themselves. Unless you are making the claim that Impervious to Energy does not work on beings that have a natural resistance to energy, then there is no relevance what so ever to them possessing resistance.
Example provided in the interests of clarity
-Mr. Demon planet is floating along.
-Mr. Dominator flies by and takes a pot shot with his cannon. *rolls 2d6x1,000,000 and gets 10,000,000*
-Mr. Planet is resistant to energy so take 5,000,000 MD and says "In the name of all things unholy! That thing could kill me" *Casts Impervious to Energy*
-Mr. Dominator fires again. He rolls 12,000,000
-Mr. Demon Planet is Impervious to Energy and takes 0MD.

So Tor dropped/left out two words from his OP....."...the spell..." so it got misunderstood.*nods*

[eliakon]

So Tor dropped/left out two words from his OP....."...the spell..." so it got misunderstood.*nods*

I am trying to get how you get 'dropped/left out two words' from

Do you think Impervious to Energy wouldprotect Cormal (DB12p103) from the three prime weapons of the Star Fortress (DB13p49) if it tried to shoot various parts of Cormal?

Its pretty clear that the words he chose were the exact ones needed to convey the meaning "if you use the specific ability that goes by the name Impervious to Energy would X occur"

[eliakon]

With the super power Invulnerablility being the ultimate in protection vs non magic or psionic damage, I HOUSE RULED anything that hurts them would have equal effect on "Impervious" targets.
If it hurts Big Blue it's gonna just Dr Weird. Js.

Ah okay. So its a total house rule with no basis in the books. Got it. I was thinking that I had missed something saying that Dominator Weapons did full damage to Cosmo-Knights someplace.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Do you think Impervious to Energy would protect Cormal (DB12p103) from the three prime weapons of the Star Fortress (DB13p49) if it tried to shoot various parts of Cormal?

"Do you think the spell Impervious to Energy would protect..." would of been more specific.
There are powers/abilities out there that are named just that too.. And less apt to be being misunderstood as just another overstatement once someone actually got out and looked at the DP text.

[eliakon]

Do you think Impervious to Energy would protect Cormal (DB12p103) from the three prime weapons of the Star Fortress (DB13p49) if it tried to shoot various parts of Cormal?

"Do you think the spell Impervious to Energy would protect..." would of been more specific. And less apt to be being misunderstood as just another overstatement.

It could have been more clear sure......but that is NOT the same as him forgetting to put in something.
The second implies that he 1) did something wrong and 2) that the other way was the only correct way to do it.

Especially considering that the capitalized Impervious to Energy has one, specific, unique meaning in Palladium (it is the proper name of a spell) I don't see why redundantly stating that he is using the spell and its name is his fault. This would be like not saying "The Spulogrth Alien Intelligence" before the name "Splyncryth" was grounds for confusing the discussion with a Dog Boy of the same name.........

[Bill]

Seemed obvious to me. Cormal isn't inherently impervious to energy but does have access to the spell. It was the first thing I confirmed before offering my opinion.

[Tor]

That I meant the spell may have seemed more obvious since I had just come from discussing Impervious to Fire versus Mechanoid Mothership plasma weapons in another thread.

Tor dropped/left out two words from his OP....."...the spell..." so it got misunderstood.*nods*

I didn't figure it was necessary since the planets didn't have an ability called 'Impervious to Energy'.

"Do you think the spell Impervious to Energy would protect..." would of been more specific.

Perhaps I was keeping in mind that it could also be cast as a ritual, or be the inherent power of a talisman made by the African Pygmies

There are powers/abilities out there that are named just that too

Only one that comes to mind is the Mystic Knight, which Cormal isn't.

[say652]

With the super power Invulnerablility being the ultimate in protection vs non magic or psionic damage, I HOUSE RULED anything that hurts them would have equal effect on "Impervious" targets.
If it hurts Big Blue it's gonna just Dr Weird. Js.

Ah okay. So its a total house rule with no basis in the books. Got it. I was thinking that I had missed something saying that Dominator Weapons did full damage to Cosmo-Knights someplace.

The vallax weapons do.

[say652]

Dominator weapons being of equal technology isn't unreasonable, they do conquer planets and all, maybe this is where the Vallax stole the technology.

[eliakon]

With the super power Invulnerablility being the ultimate in protection vs non magic or psionic damage, I HOUSE RULED anything that hurts them would have equal effect on "Impervious" targets.
If it hurts Big Blue it's gonna just Dr Weird. Js.

Ah okay. So its a total house rule with no basis in the books. Got it. I was thinking that I had missed something saying that Dominator Weapons did full damage to Cosmo-Knights someplace.

The vallax weapons do.

The Vallax weapons are some sort of 'variable beam' that can be dialed to overcome any resistance or immunity.....
Which combined with their magical level nano-tech, and the completely unreplicable nature of their tech......
makes me wonder if the Vallax are another Elder Race.....

[Tor]

If they're contenders, I want the Intruders considered too.

[glitterboy2098]

Intruders have the 'lack of data problem'. since none of their tech has lasted long enough after being capture to have more than a cursory examination done before it exploded into little bits. (specifically mentioned.. no big ships ever captured intact enough for study, and the rest explode within hours of their user being killed.)

that said, i'd have little problem giving them 'elder race' status for their tech, since it clearly uses principles very different from standard 3G's or rifts tech, and even if they aren't an elder race by age, their tech is just as inscrutable.

[eliakon]

Intruders have the 'lack of data problem'. since none of their tech has lasted long enough after being capture to have more than a cursory examination done before it exploded into little bits. (specifically mentioned.. no big ships ever captured intact enough for study, and the rest explode within hours of their user being killed.)

that said, i'd have little problem giving them 'elder race' status for their tech, since it clearly uses principles very different from standard 3G's or rifts tech, and even if they aren't an elder race by age, their tech is just as inscrutable.

I agree. Their tech screams "Elder Race" to me. Though they themselves may simply be an Elder Race's servitor race equipped with enigmatic toys by their masters and off doing their inscrutable business. The K!ozon sound like a race on the cusp of being an Elder Race, as well as possibly the Xodian's.

[glitterboy2098]

K!ozon and Xodian have the opposite lack of data problem.. we don;t have any details about what they use in terms of weapons, ships, etc. so they could be elder races, or they could just be really advanced standard stuff.

[ShadowLogan]

Not knowing the nature of 2 and 3 (beam weaponry/turrets) I am inclined to assume that it fires directed cosmic energy. although I guess it could be something else. I am not sure what to make of the anti-matter cannons though, since they sound similar but different.

The Anti-matter cannons would be able to bypass the Spell Impervious to Energy.

"Impervious to Energy" does not protect against explosives. Based on the Annihilate spell (BoM pg150) that creates anti-matter, it does damage by explosion (stated under point 2 in the text) and so would not be countered by ItoE. Unless one wants to argue that the Annihilate Anti-matter is behaving differently enough from the Anti-Matter in the Anti-Matter Cannons, they would bypass the ItoE spell effects.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So you are also saying?? that anti-matter warheads and the Anti-Matter space magic spell will also ignore the Imp. to Energy spell effects?

[Alrik Vas]

Explosive damage ignores impervious to energy...so yes.

[ShadowLogan]

@drewkitty~..~
Yes Anti-matter weaponry will ignore Impervious to Energy because it is viewed as an "explosive". Annihilate Spell describes the effect of the spell in terms of being an explosive and the source reaction being a matter-anti-matter-annihilation (MAMA) reaction. Unless you want to view other MAMA-type attacks (Magic, TW, Tech) as working differently than this, then yes ItoE would not protect against a MAMA-explosion (be it a bomb or stream of particles).

[Tor]

"Impervious to Energy" does not protect against explosives. Based on the Annihilate spell (BoM pg150) that creates anti-matter, it does damage by explosion (stated under point 2 in the text) and so would not be countered by ItoE.

Don't plasma missiles also do damage by explosion? I figured ItFire/Energy protected against those. I think that's also why you can't roll with impact to reduce plasma damage.

Or the 'Firebomb' (Misc TW weapon page 117) says "creates an explosion of magical flame".

Being an explosion alone doesn't seem to indicate that something isn't energy damage. So the question boils down to whether anti-matter interaction is energy or not. Is it an explosion of force? An explosion of energy? An explosion of shrapnel? No idea.

This makes me wonder... if you were fighting in space, if Annihilate works by the anti-matter contacting matter, could it even be used to damage force fields? Do force fields have a matter component? Obviously no problems if you can hit the hull, just not sure about force fields.

[eliakon]

@drewkitty~..~
Yes Anti-matter weaponry will ignore Impervious to Energy because it is viewed as an "explosive". Annihilate Spell describes the effect of the spell in terms of being an explosive and the source reaction being a matter-anti-matter-annihilation (MAMA) reaction. Unless you want to view other MAMA-type attacks (Magic, TW, Tech) as working differently than this, then yes ItoE would not protect against a MAMA-explosion (be it a bomb or stream of particles).

Devils Advocate time here but....
What is there 'explosive' in an Anti-Matter reaction. The matter and anti-matter turn into a mass of pure gamma rays (and some other energy types) and radiates outwards. The key being that matter and anti-matter combine to turn into pure energy.......
That sounds about as definitional as an 'energy weapon' as it gets....

[ShadowLogan]

@drewkitty~..~
Yes Anti-matter weaponry will ignore Impervious to Energy because it is viewed as an "explosive". Annihilate Spell describes the effect of the spell in terms of being an explosive and the source reaction being a matter-anti-matter-annihilation (MAMA) reaction. Unless you want to view other MAMA-type attacks (Magic, TW, Tech) as working differently than this, then yes ItoE would not protect against a MAMA-explosion (be it a bomb or stream of particles).

Devils Advocate time here but....
What is there 'explosive' in an Anti-Matter reaction. The matter and anti-matter turn into a mass of pure gamma rays (and some other energy types) and radiates outwards. The key being that matter and anti-matter combine to turn into pure energy.......
That sounds about as definitional as an 'energy weapon' as it gets....

That is how PB characterises the reaction though: an explosion.

The release of energy though is post impact and the result of the interaction between matter and anti-matter. So you have lost matter (ie MDC) from the reaction. ItoE doesn't stop the reaction from occurring, which is the source of at least some of the damage. ItoE doesn't stop KE attacks, so MAMA might be considered a phsycial attack in terms of Palladium.

I think for ItoE to work it has to prevent the attack from doing any damage. Since getting struck by the anti-matter itself doesn't constitute an energy attack, but a physical attack it is allowed to bypass.

Don't plasma missiles also do damage by explosion? I figured ItFire/Energy protected against those. I think that's also why you can't roll with impact to reduce plasma damage.

No they are also described as being covered by ItoE/F due to other characteristics (they are heat/fire based).

We have no defining characteristic w/n Palladium about how the MAMA release is treated. Due to its nature it might be one of those extreme exceptions to impervious type abilities/spells (HU2E Invulnerability Major Power does note that some things can over ride it at the GM call).

[eliakon]

@drewkitty~..~
Yes Anti-matter weaponry will ignore Impervious to Energy because it is viewed as an "explosive". Annihilate Spell describes the effect of the spell in terms of being an explosive and the source reaction being a matter-anti-matter-annihilation (MAMA) reaction. Unless you want to view other MAMA-type attacks (Magic, TW, Tech) as working differently than this, then yes ItoE would not protect against a MAMA-explosion (be it a bomb or stream of particles).

Devils Advocate time here but....
What is there 'explosive' in an Anti-Matter reaction. The matter and anti-matter turn into a mass of pure gamma rays (and some other energy types) and radiates outwards. The key being that matter and anti-matter combine to turn into pure energy.......
That sounds about as definitional as an 'energy weapon' as it gets....

That is how PB characterises the reaction though: an explosion.

The release of energy though is post impact and the result of the interaction between matter and anti-matter. So you have lost matter (ie MDC) from the reaction. ItoE doesn't stop the reaction from occurring, which is the source of at least some of the damage. ItoE doesn't stop KE attacks, so MAMA might be considered a phsycial attack in terms of Palladium.

I think for ItoE to work it has to prevent the attack from doing any damage. Since getting struck by the anti-matter itself doesn't constitute an energy attack, but a physical attack it is allowed to bypass.

Don't plasma missiles also do damage by explosion? I figured ItFire/Energy protected against those. I think that's also why you can't roll with impact to reduce plasma damage.

No they are also described as being covered by ItoE/F due to other characteristics (they are heat/fire based).

We have no defining characteristic w/n Palladium about how the MAMA release is treated. Due to its nature it might be one of those extreme exceptions to impervious type abilities/spells (HU2E Invulnerability Major Power does note that some things can over ride it at the GM call).

The thing though is that the plasma missiles do NO damage, even though there is presumably some 'explosion' involved, and the kinetic impact of the missile....
Basically Palladium simplifies things a lot if its more or less an energy attack its energy. If its more or less kinetic its kinetic (ignoring the whole 'kinetic energy is energy bit'). This is especially important for stuff like particle beams (which are more or less streams of really fast and really tiny bullets....but still get stopped by ItE....) and since particle beams get stopped.....why shouldn't anti-particle beams?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Don't plasma missiles also do damage by explosion? I figured ItFire/Energy protected against those. I think that's also why you can't roll with impact to reduce plasma damage.

No they are also described as being covered by ItoE/F due to other characteristics (they are heat/fire based).

We have no defining characteristic w/n Palladium about how the MAMA release is treated. Due to its nature it might be one of those extreme exceptions to impervious type abilities/spells (HU2E Invulnerability Major Power does note that some things can over ride it at the GM call).

Plasma Missiles as they are presenting in the books are a Super Napalm dispersing warhead and it is the fuel burning that does the damage.

[ShadowLogan]

The thing though is that the plasma missiles do NO damage, even though there is presumably some 'explosion' involved, and the kinetic impact of the missile....
Basically Palladium simplifies things a lot if its more or less an energy attack its energy. If its more or less kinetic its kinetic (ignoring the whole 'kinetic energy is energy bit'). This is especially important for stuff like particle beams (which are more or less streams of really fast and really tiny bullets....but still get stopped by ItE....) and since particle beams get stopped.....why shouldn't anti-particle beams?

The source of the Plasma missiles damage IS not from the explosion itself though, but as a secondary effect.

I agree Palladium has simplified things in terms of energy.

Anti-matter (beam/bomb) should bypass ItoE because it is hardly conventional energy weapon (there is precedent for exotic/extreme instances bypassing invulnerability). Nor does ItoE stop physical reactions from occurring (chemical energy fuelled explosions, kinetic impacts).

In My Humble Opinion what ItoE (and similar) spell (/power) does is alter energy point(s) (like melting) of the material in question (be in organic or inorganic), and conventional energy weapons do damage by exploiting known energy points (like melting) of materials to do damage, but MAMA reaction destroys the matter it comes into contact with and doesn't require an energy point to be reached to cause harm (plus the energy might be so intense it can bypass it).

Plasma Missiles as they are presenting in the books are a Super Napalm dispersing warhead and it is the fuel burning that does the damage.

Correct, but it is also presented as Plasma/Heat and Plasma/Napalm with the defining characteristic of it being heat transfer as the source of damage.