Literacy in the Coalition States

[nukeduster]

So, it is my understanding that literacy is basically nil in the coalition states unless you are part of the upper caste. However, HOW do people learn things? How do they get about doing things? It seems cumbersome to think that an electrician could learn his trade without the ability to read, or a gunsmith/armorer how to rebuild and repair firearms and power armor and computer parts without the ability to read.

Maybe I missed something, and that depending on your job you're allowed the ability to read (and thus own certain approved books), or are skills simply passed down as necessary by the educated elite?

It just seems unrealistic that a society could get that high tech and people be able to interface with their high tech devices without at least a rudimentary ability to read and write.

I mean, I know in some ways you could compare it to our own, we live in a high tech society, many people don't understand HOW their Ipod/pad/tablet/etc works, they just smash buttons and off they go, but there are 1000's of technicians and skilled peoples involved with their repair/maintenance/etc which could not do their jobs without the ability to read. Same goes for anything else technical (EOD, navigation, weapons repair, power armor maintenance, computer repair, hoverboard repair).

Help me wrap my head around this idea.

[glitterboy2098]

well, keep in mind that you can learn things without books. schools can teach things to people using pictures, videos, and verbal (talking) material. computers are already voice controlled in reality, so many electronics for the common person can be just given orders by talking to them.

and a lot of things can be imparted by symbols. a red cross means hospital. a picture of something in a circle with a line through it mean "no [whatever the picture represents]". red octogon means "stop" when driving. etc. even on a computer, symbols or icons are a fairly common way to indicate various programs and controls within programs. a solid triangle means play, multiple means skip or fast forward, a solid square means stop, a lightning bolt or circle with a short line through the top means power on/off, etc. not to mention the icons and stuff for apps and such on a tablet or computer.

symbols and icons like that, while having meaning to the viewer, are not language in the traditional sense because they lack a way to string them together to form meaningful complex thoughts.


also, what makes you assume that the technicians and such are illiterate?

the CS does not require illiteracy, it merely does not encourage the learning of reading and controls what is and isn't available in written form. it's schools are not going to teach reading, but at the same time, if you end up in a vocation that requires literacy, your going to be taught to read during the vocational training. at least enough that you can do your job.
so while you can read the instructions for repairing a PA or maintaining a railgun, your not gonna be able to understand Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy In America" or other non-technical works. (especially since the CS works hard to prevent stuff like Tocqueville's work getting to it's citizens)

after all, the goal of the Cs is not to get rid of reading, but rather to control what it's citizens are exposed to in terms of ideas. they don't want them able to get a hold of materials that will give them ideas about how the CS isn't the best place ever, or which conflict the CS's own propoganda and 'official' history. the control of information is always spotty when you try to ban stuff.. but if most of the populace can't read much past "see spot run", and the rest are in jobs where they can be carefully watched, they get an extra layer of control.

[Killer Cyborg]

well, keep in mind that you can learn things without books.

This.

Books are a modern invention. Learning is not.
Most of the armies of history were illiterate.
Most of the civilians were illiterate too, for that matter.

ALSO, keep in mind that you don't necessarily need the Literacy skill to read your own name, or to sound out a simple sentence. Literacy is a spectrum, not a binary equation.

ALSO, also... keep in mind that literacy is not required to read numbers, nor to read universal symbols.

Then maybe watch some old Star Trek episodes, and notice that most of their interactions with computers was via verbal conversation, not via keyboard.
Heck, look at SIRI and such modern programs, and think about the implications with programs that are 100x better.
Oh, and remember that new-style CS armor comes standard with a computer that can read FOR the soldier, if/when necessary.

[Bill]

They whip out their fancy hand-held computer and tell it what they want.

Siri, how do you hotwire a car? <video tutorial plays while the authorities are informed of the infraction, unless the security measures have been disabled>

Cortana, find my friend John Crow. <in a town with an accessible network a map showing the location of John's hand comp; elsewhere my hand comp says it's sorry but John is out of range>

Jarvis, what in the Emperor's name is that?! <shooting a picture of the demon, the hand comp starts flashing its danger icon and plays a clip from a documentary on threats to the Coalition>

Hal, open the pod bay doors. <the hand comp apologizes and says it can't do that>

[kaid]

When you are in a high tech society where everything is icon and voice driven it would be pretty easy for non technical positions to get by without having any need to read. I would imagine all citizens in the city states proper would have some kind of smart phone/pda type thing for information and entertainment that would be capable of voice interactions and reading stuff for you. Why bother to learn how to read something if you have a device that does it for you kind of like people and math. People mostly use calculators and let the machine do the actual work you don't need to know how to do the math you just need to know how to work the machine so it tells you the answer.


The plus side from propaganda perspective is if all your "reading" gets filtered through a device given to you or licensed by the state its easy to put in filters/watch guard triggers/built in censoring on it to put yet more hurdles in the way of people trying to read information they should not be reading and to alert authorities to the beahvior.

[Nox Equites]

Some skills require Literacy to be effective. Trusting the computer to know what you really mean when you say something that is a homophone is less than wise. Sure you can trust that the accounting program has everything figured out but if you can't read you have no idea if you or it forgot something.

[Killer Cyborg]

Some skills require Literacy to be effective.

Yes, but not many.

Trusting the computer to know what you really mean when you say something that is a homophone is less than wise.

People are less than wise.

[Bill]

Trusting the computer to know what you really mean when you say something that is a homophone is less than wise.

People are less than wise.

Yup. I don't think anybody is saying that it's a good idea to trust the computer to do all of this for you. Only that it can be done and that it's a way to make sense of the setting assumptions of high technology and low literacy.

[Nightmask]

Trusting the computer to know what you really mean when you say something that is a homophone is less than wise.

People are less than wise.

Yup. I don't think anybody is saying that it's a good idea to trust the computer to do all of this for you. Only that it can be done and that it's a way to make sense of the setting assumptions of high technology and low literacy.

It's hardly a new thing for science-fiction to extrapolate trends to reach a future where high-technology has resulted in literacy dropping until no one could read anymore (Asimov had at least one where even being able to add 2+2 was impossible without calculators as people had become totally dependent on computers to do all math and it was a monumental breakthrough when someone reverses engineers basic mathematics from studying the results of his calculator).

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's also not quite as bad as you think.

According to RUE and CWC, All Coalition Technical officers (AKA, the guys who actually make and maintain all the technical gear) are literate as part of the OCC. Additionally, all EOD Specialists, RCSG Specialists, Military Specialists, and Fly Boy Pilots are all fully literate. All ISS Specters and Officers are Literate. In addition, Both CS Commandos and CS Special Forces get an explicit high bonus to literacy if taken as an OCC Related skill, indicating literacy training for them is provided as needed.

So all of the Technical and Officer corps appear to be literate to some degree. it's only the grunts and shock troopers (SAMAS pilots, cyborgs, juicers, Ect) that don't appear to have the option.

This provides a pretty good veiw as to how civilian life goes. the entire Technical and Political class are probablly literate--it's only banned to the masses.

[Killer Cyborg]

Trusting the computer to know what you really mean when you say something that is a homophone is less than wise.

People are less than wise.

Yup. I don't think anybody is saying that it's a good idea to trust the computer to do all of this for you. Only that it can be done and that it's a way to make sense of the setting assumptions of high technology and low literacy.

It's hardly a new thing for science-fiction to extrapolate trends to reach a future where high-technology has resulted in literacy dropping until no one could read anymore (Asimov had at least one where even being able to add 2+2 was impossible without calculators as people had become totally dependent on computers to do all math and it was a monumental breakthrough when someone reverses engineers basic mathematics from studying the results of his calculator).

I remember that one.
Good story.

[glitterboy2098]

It's also not quite as bad as you think.

According to RUE and CWC, All Coalition Technical officers (AKA, the guys who actually make and maintain all the technical gear) are literate as part of the OCC. Additionally, all EOD Specialists, RCSG Specialists, Military Specialists, and Fly Boy Pilots are all fully literate. All ISS Specters and Officers are Literate. In addition, Both CS Commandos and CS Special Forces get an explicit high bonus to literacy if taken as an OCC Related skill, indicating literacy training for them is provided as needed.

So all of the Technical and Officer corps appear to be literate to some degree. it's only the grunts and shock troopers (SAMAS pilots, cyborgs, juicers, Ect) that don't appear to have the option.

This provides a pretty good veiw as to how civilian life goes. the entire Technical and Political class are probablly literate--it's only banned to the masses.

yep. which is why i wrote this:

if you end up in a vocation that requires literacy, your going to be taught to read during the vocational training. at least enough that you can do your job.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's also not quite as bad as you think.

According to RUE and CWC, All Coalition Technical officers (AKA, the guys who actually make and maintain all the technical gear) are literate as part of the OCC. Additionally, all EOD Specialists, RCSG Specialists, Military Specialists, and Fly Boy Pilots are all fully literate. All ISS Specters and Officers are Literate. In addition, Both CS Commandos and CS Special Forces get an explicit high bonus to literacy if taken as an OCC Related skill, indicating literacy training for them is provided as needed.

So all of the Technical and Officer corps appear to be literate to some degree. it's only the grunts and shock troopers (SAMAS pilots, cyborgs, juicers, Ect) that don't appear to have the option.

This provides a pretty good veiw as to how civilian life goes. the entire Technical and Political class are probablly literate--it's only banned to the masses.

yep. which is why i wrote this:

if you end up in a vocation that requires literacy, your going to be taught to read during the vocational training. at least enough that you can do your job.

I saw that. I wasn't responding to your post, however.

[kaid]

Some skills require Literacy to be effective.

Yes, but not many.

Trusting the computer to know what you really mean when you say something that is a homophone is less than wise.

People are less than wise.

Also its a society designed for the illiterate as well so one has to assume that a lot of their tech stuff is about as simple to use as possible. On the homophone issue just look how far voice activated controls have come in even the last decade. A good voice activated system should be able to pick up context to get the right version of a homophone even today let alone with another hundred or so years of perfecting.

[Library Ogre]

Also its a society designed for the illiterate as well so one has to assume that a lot of their tech stuff is about as simple to use as possible. On the homophone issue just look how far voice activated controls have come in even the last decade. A good voice activated system should be able to pick up context to get the right version of a homophone even today let alone with another hundred or so years of perfecting.

Still bet they won't be able to handle Scottish accents.

[Tor]

Maybe the Scottish accent no longer exists in North America.

I blame the undefined deities we shall someday see in Rifts Scotland, because Palladium promised.

[Bill]

Scots are classified as D-Bees and have been hunted mercilessly due to a translation error.

[Rallan]

I think we ought to deal with the elephant in the room here instead of tiptoeing around it and trying to rationalise things.

The CS illiteracy thing is wildly, stupidly unrealistic. It's a flight of fancy. It's a hoary old two-fisted pulp SF cliche that's been dug up to help portray the CS as an evil empire.

It's a nation fielding technology way more advanced than what we've got in the real world, and it has the infrastructure to keep this tech running all the damn time, and it has to produce absolutely everything (including most of the raw materials) itself, which means that it also has a pretty sophisticated administration and economy. And there is just no way in hell that all of that is gonna function if the majority of the population are uneducated unskilled menial workers.

So how do you figure out how it works? You don't. Any attempt to explain it or rationalise it or tweak it so it works will just run into other problems with the setting, and addressing them will lead to others, until you realise it's wildly unrealistic cartoon-trope turtles all the way down. So just let it be. It's a stylistic choice in a heavily stylised setting, and it's never going to make sense any more than the inner workings of society in Judge Dredd or Mad Max make sense. You just roll with it and use it as the vivid backdrop for larger than life adventure, you don't try and smoosh it up until it's plausible enough to run a realistic story around.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's not an elephant. It's just a sofa.
Hardly improbable or hard to understand

[eliakon]

I think we ought to deal with the elephant in the room here instead of tiptoeing around it and trying to rationalise things.

The CS illiteracy thing is wildly, stupidly unrealistic. It's a flight of fancy. It's a hoary old two-fisted pulp SF cliche that's been dug up to help portray the CS as an evil empire.

It's a nation fielding technology way more advanced than what we've got in the real world, and it has the infrastructure to keep this tech running all the damn time, and it has to produce absolutely everything (including most of the raw materials) itself, which means that it also has a pretty sophisticated administration and economy. And there is just no way in hell that all of that is gonna function if the majority of the population are uneducated unskilled menial workers.

So how do you figure out how it works? You don't. Any attempt to explain it or rationalise it or tweak it so it works will just run into other problems with the setting, and addressing them will lead to others, until you realise it's wildly unrealistic cartoon-trope turtles all the way down. So just let it be. It's a stylistic choice in a heavily stylised setting, and it's never going to make sense any more than the inner workings of society in Judge Dredd or Mad Max make sense. You just roll with it and use it as the vivid backdrop for larger than life adventure, you don't try and smoosh it up until it's plausible enough to run a realistic story around.

Its not really as impossible as this because as they point out the technical class CAN read.
But yes, there is a major real world precedent for the idea of controlling people by making sure that they cant read stuff that might challenge the party line.
The commoners don't have to read, and so in the CS they don't. Techs do, and the Elite do but the masses don't have any need to, and so we are back to the way things were for most of human history.....no education beyond what was needed.

[Nox Equites]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June". If they can't read they won't be able to use more than the standard radio presets programmed in by HQ.

Expecting the supply system to be completely automated without an AI is getting deep into flights of fancy territory. This might explain why it takes them so long to change over to the new equipment.

[eliakon]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June". If they can't read they won't be able to use more than the standard radio presets programmed in by HQ.

Expecting the supply system to be completely automated without an AI is getting deep into flights of fancy territory. This might explain why it takes them so long to change over to the new equipment.

If that unit has lost every single suit of body armor then I will say that they have bigger problems than long term planning on what to do when their rations expire....(for the record many military rations have expiration dates years in the future)
Remember the CS has almost completely automated every single piece of equipment.
And also remember that reading is NOT a perquisite for any radio skill. You don't need to read to know how to program radios (trust me I know this from experience)

[Blue_Lion]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June". If they can't read they won't be able to use more than the standard radio presets programmed in by HQ.

Expecting the supply system to be completely automated without an AI is getting deep into flights of fancy territory. This might explain why it takes them so long to change over to the new equipment.

If that unit has lost every single suit of body armor then I will say that they have bigger problems than long term planning on what to do when their rations expire....(for the record many military rations have expiration dates years in the future)
Remember the CS has almost completely automated every single piece of equipment.
And also remember that reading is NOT a perquisite for any radio skill. You don't need to read to know how to program radios (trust me I know this from experience)

grunt a. What channel do I need to set the radio to?
grunt b. 1657.5
oh thanks.
yea no reading. there just have to teach them which symbol is to start entering the frequency. I work in single corps for years and half our radios can be set up and programed by trained monkeys.

[Library Ogre]

grunt a. What channel do I need to set the radio to?
grunt b. 1657.5
oh thanks.
yea no reading. there just have to teach them which symbol is to start entering the frequency. I work in single corps for years and half our radios can be set up and programed by trained monkeys.

Hell, the channels might be "Blue" "Green" "Yellow" "Red", with most of the work being done by computers.

In some ways, I also see the military as being a way ahead for a lot of people... my number for CS civil society had up to 80% of the population with some military experience post-Tolkeen, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of kids join the military specifically for the shot at an education... you're not going to get one as a Lowlie, but if you stand out in training, you might make it into the motorpool... which means a better job out of the military, and an education.

Pre-RUE, I wrote a few MOS options for the Tech Officer.

[Killer Cyborg]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June".

That is incredibly incorrect.
"Illiterate" does NOT mean "This person can NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ever read even a single word."
Although that level of illiteracy is possible, it's far from the only possible level of illiteracy.
If a person can only read their own name, they're illiterate.
If a person can only read their own name, and the months in the year, then they're still illiterate.
If a person can only read their own name, the months in the year, and the days of the week, then they're still illiterate.
"Illiterate" doesn't mean "100% illiterate, always."

Somebody growing up in a civilization that uses written names for months is very likely to be able to read those names, or at least to recognize them enough to identify them. Same with certain other key words.
Alternately, yes, there may be a color coding system or something. Or just numbers, really.
You don't have to be literate to read an expiration date of "12/22/109."

[Killer Cyborg]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June". If they can't read they won't be able to use more than the standard radio presets programmed in by HQ.

Expecting the supply system to be completely automated without an AI is getting deep into flights of fancy territory. This might explain why it takes them so long to change over to the new equipment.

If that unit has lost every single suit of body armor then I will say that they have bigger problems than long term planning on what to do when their rations expire....(for the record many military rations have expiration dates years in the future)
Remember the CS has almost completely automated every single piece of equipment.
And also remember that reading is NOT a perquisite for any radio skill. You don't need to read to know how to program radios (trust me I know this from experience)

grunt a. What channel do I need to set the radio to?
grunt b. 1657.5
oh thanks.
yea no reading. there just have to teach them which symbol is to start entering the frequency. I work in single corps for years and half our radios can be set up and programed by trained monkeys.

Recognizing numbers isn't literacy in any case, unless the radio spells it out as "one six five seven point five" or something.

[Incriptus]

I've often noticed that my nephew navigated my smart phone perfectly well without being literate.
He may not even know it's a word, but he recognizes "Accept" & "Cancel" as if they were pictures.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think we ought to deal with the elephant in the room here instead of tiptoeing around it and trying to rationalise things.

The CS illiteracy thing is wildly, stupidly unrealistic. It's a flight of fancy. It's a hoary old two-fisted pulp SF cliche that's been dug up to help portray the CS as an evil empire.

It's a nation fielding technology way more advanced than what we've got in the real world, and it has the infrastructure to keep this tech running all the damn time, and it has to produce absolutely everything (including most of the raw materials) itself, which means that it also has a pretty sophisticated administration and economy. And there is just no way in hell that all of that is gonna function if the majority of the population are uneducated unskilled menial workers.

So how do you figure out how it works? You don't. Any attempt to explain it or rationalise it or tweak it so it works will just run into other problems with the setting, and addressing them will lead to others, until you realise it's wildly unrealistic cartoon-trope turtles all the way down. So just let it be. It's a stylistic choice in a heavily stylised setting, and it's never going to make sense any more than the inner workings of society in Judge Dredd or Mad Max make sense. You just roll with it and use it as the vivid backdrop for larger than life adventure, you don't try and smoosh it up until it's plausible enough to run a realistic story around.

Mostly this. I was going to type a reply but it's mostly this.

The concept is stupid and wasn't thought out. In palladium fantasy it might work but in a society with nuclear power plants the size of coffee cans or hockey pucks it's just stupid. Sorry but it is. Stupid.

No. Symbols don't get you from A to B in a hyper science envrioment, and if you no more than 20 or so 'symbols' you're reading. just a different language. the CS citizens would need "Literacy CS Symbol language" to get by that way.

The concept was "This will help keep people under the thumb" but it's silly. In application it's absurd to think they could even try this.

More over Kevin/Palladiums version of illiteracy IS much more dramatic than real world. In their world yes, it does mean that most people don't even know their ABCs. Only a portion of the population could even use the alphabet to spell things for a computer. That's beyond illiteracy, that's crazy sorts.

Even looking at just the military it's absurd. The average grunt couldn't tell what unit he's in or even his armor from everyone elses armor, or his gun from everyone elses gun. Again, Symbols just don't do it. People like to think "Hey mcdonalds tried it with some of their order machines for a whle. It can work, but not really. A ultra high tech society simply could not function as written in Rifts.

So you're left with a few options.
1) Keep it and just roll with it, but if you're asking the question in the OP you realize how stupid it is. So not really an option
2) Ignore it. Just ignore the illiteracy and accept that the government controls MEDIA. Not LITERACY. I.E. they burn books they don't like and control the news. Not the aspect of reading in and of itself in a ULTRA HIGH TECH sci fi society.
or split the difference
3) Have the CS be 'functionally literate'. The average person having a reading ability of about 5th grade. Enough to get by in day to day life, with scientists, tech jobs, military, having higher levels.

But the OP's not wrong. It's stupid as written. I've never held to it. As it didn't make any sense and clearly wasn't thought through at the start.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June". If they can't read they won't be able to use more than the standard radio presets programmed in by HQ.

Expecting the supply system to be completely automated without an AI is getting deep into flights of fancy territory. This might explain why it takes them so long to change over to the new equipment.

If that unit has lost every single suit of body armor then I will say that they have bigger problems than long term planning on what to do when their rations expire....(for the record many military rations have expiration dates years in the future)
Remember the CS has almost completely automated every single piece of equipment.
And also remember that reading is NOT a perquisite for any radio skill. You don't need to read to know how to program radios (trust me I know this from experience)

grunt a. What channel do I need to set the radio to?
grunt b. 1657.5
oh thanks.
yea no reading. there just have to teach them which symbol is to start entering the frequency. I work in single corps for years and half our radios can be set up and programed by trained monkeys.

Incorrect. It's been stated in the books that most troops can't even read off letters or numbers. Which again is silly. In ---Rifts---- yes, being illiterate mans you don't even know letters or numbers.

Which again is absurd, as they have an economy and get paid money, but if you can't count... lol .

[Pepsi Jedi]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June".

That is incredibly incorrect.
"Illiterate" does NOT mean "This person can NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ever read even a single word."
Although that level of illiteracy is possible, it's far from the only possible level of illiteracy.
If a person can only read their own name, they're illiterate.
If a person can only read their own name, and the months in the year, then they're still illiterate.
If a person can only read their own name, the months in the year, and the days of the week, then they're still illiterate.
"Illiterate" doesn't mean "100% illiterate, always."

Somebody growing up in a civilization that uses written names for months is very likely to be able to read those names, or at least to recognize them enough to identify them. Same with certain other key words.
Alternately, yes, there may be a color coding system or something. Or just numbers, really.
You don't have to be literate to read an expiration date of "12/22/109."

In the real world that may be. In RIFTS that's NOT as it's written. In Rifts yes, being Illiterate means they can't even read their names, or even letters. It's why the concept in rifts is so silly. because as written it really is that black and white. A binary sort of system. "You can either read perfectly or not at all and all letters just look like weird shapes to you with no dawinig comprehension.

I forget the percentage but it's as small percentage of 'illiterate' people that can even read -letters- to a computer to read for them. Which again is absurd.

In rifts. "Illiterate" DOES mean 100% illiterate, always.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June". If they can't read they won't be able to use more than the standard radio presets programmed in by HQ.

Expecting the supply system to be completely automated without an AI is getting deep into flights of fancy territory. This might explain why it takes them so long to change over to the new equipment.

If that unit has lost every single suit of body armor then I will say that they have bigger problems than long term planning on what to do when their rations expire....(for the record many military rations have expiration dates years in the future)
Remember the CS has almost completely automated every single piece of equipment.
And also remember that reading is NOT a perquisite for any radio skill. You don't need to read to know how to program radios (trust me I know this from experience)

grunt a. What channel do I need to set the radio to?
grunt b. 1657.5
oh thanks.
yea no reading. there just have to teach them which symbol is to start entering the frequency. I work in single corps for years and half our radios can be set up and programed by trained monkeys.

Recognizing numbers isn't literacy in any case, unless the radio spells it out as "one six five seven point five" or something.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think so, i think it's stipulated in the text some where that most of the CS don't even have that recognition. That only a small percent 20%? (I forget the exact number it's low) could even use letters or numbers to spell out things to a computer to read for them. That they indeed do NOT understand numbers.

[Prysus]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June". If they can't read they won't be able to use more than the standard radio presets programmed in by HQ.

Expecting the supply system to be completely automated without an AI is getting deep into flights of fancy territory. This might explain why it takes them so long to change over to the new equipment.

If that unit has lost every single suit of body armor then I will say that they have bigger problems than long term planning on what to do when their rations expire....(for the record many military rations have expiration dates years in the future)
Remember the CS has almost completely automated every single piece of equipment.
And also remember that reading is NOT a perquisite for any radio skill. You don't need to read to know how to program radios (trust me I know this from experience)

grunt a. What channel do I need to set the radio to?
grunt b. 1657.5
oh thanks.
yea no reading. there just have to teach them which symbol is to start entering the frequency. I work in single corps for years and half our radios can be set up and programed by trained monkeys.

Recognizing numbers isn't literacy in any case, unless the radio spells it out as "one six five seven point five" or something.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think so, i think it's stipulated in the text some where that most of the CS don't even have that recognition. That only a small percent 20%? (I forget the exact number it's low) could even use letters or numbers to spell out things to a computer to read for them. That they indeed do NOT understand numbers.

Greetings and Salutations. I'm guessing you're thinking of RWB11: CWC, page 100. 70% of Grunts (or at least 70% of the 85% that's illiterate) don't know the alphabet. However, numbers aren't part of literacy (in Palladium). That's why you can take Mathematics skills without a Literacy requirement. Though if you don't know your alphabet AND you don't have Mathematics ... well, you might not know your numbers either. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[eliakon]

If that unit has lost every single suit of body armor then I will say that they have bigger problems than long term planning on what to do when their rations expire....(for the record many military rations have expiration dates years in the future)
Remember the CS has almost completely automated every single piece of equipment.
And also remember that reading is NOT a perquisite for any radio skill. You don't need to read to know how to program radios (trust me I know this from experience)

grunt a. What channel do I need to set the radio to?
grunt b. 1657.5
oh thanks.
yea no reading. there just have to teach them which symbol is to start entering the frequency. I work in single corps for years and half our radios can be set up and programed by trained monkeys.

Recognizing numbers isn't literacy in any case, unless the radio spells it out as "one six five seven point five" or something.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think so, i think it's stipulated in the text some where that most of the CS don't even have that recognition. That only a small percent 20%? (I forget the exact number it's low) could even use letters or numbers to spell out things to a computer to read for them. That they indeed do NOT understand numbers.

Greetings and Salutations. I'm guessing you're thinking of RWB11: CWC, page 100. 70% of Grunts (or at least 70% of the 85% that's illiterate) don't know the alphabet. However, numbers aren't part of literacy (in Palladium). That's why you can take Mathematics skills without a Literacy requirement. Though if you don't know your alphabet AND you don't have Mathematics ... well, you might not know your numbers either. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

so we are back to 30% of the illiterate don't know the alphabet. And have to rely on others.
If I may put this in some Real World Terms here.....
When I was in the military when in Iraq I had to work with troops from other nations. Many times we did not share a language, we did not even always share an ALPHABET. But that didn't stop us from doing stuff. We had picture cards we pantomimed, we used drawings....we made do. We preferred to use translators but that wasn't always an option.
This sounds like what the 70% of the 85% do...they get by and let the others do the heavy lifting (or the computers)....
They have been enslaved by the CS by invisible chains and they don't even realize it.

[eliakon]

I would especially like to point out that it is a fallacy to claim that because the CS society uses high tech that people have to read.
The TECHNICAL CLASS CAN READ. Its the commoners that cant. The same commoners that for tens of thousands of years never could read anyway. It has only been in the last couple hundred years that the concept of teaching anyone but a scholar 'their letters' has even been a thing. But society has managed to work just fine. You don't have to know how to read to fire a rifle, to talk on a radio, to drive a truck, to cook a hamburger, to mop a floor.....and in the CS if you don't have to know how to read.....you don't.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've often noticed that my nephew navigated my smart phone perfectly well without being literate.
He may not even know it's a word, but he recognizes "Accept" & "Cancel" as if they were pictures.

Excellent example.

[glitterboy2098]

and things like radio don't need numbers technically. if there are only a couple channels you want the grunts using, you just simplify the interface to have just those, and use symbols.
"hey, what channel are we supposed ot be one again?"
"green triangle, like the LT said."
"ah, i had it on red square"

[Pepsi Jedi]

so we are back to 30% of the illiterate don't know the alphabet. And have to rely on others.
If I may put this in some Real World Terms here.....
When I was in the military when in Iraq I had to work with troops from other nations. Many times we did not share a language, we did not even always share an ALPHABET. But that didn't stop us from doing stuff. We had picture cards we pantomimed, we used drawings....we made do. We preferred to use translators but that wasn't always an option.
This sounds like what the 70% of the 85% do...they get by and let the others do the heavy lifting (or the computers)....
They have been enslaved by the CS by invisible chains and they don't even realize it.

No.. we're not back to 30% of illiterate. We're at 30% that know their letters.

To quote the book:
"(85% of all grunts are illiterate). This is done either by reading the letters composing the word (assuming the character knows the alphabet; 70% don't) "

So that could be read as a flat 70% don't know their alphabet, (which is how I think it's meant) or the some what confusing 70% of 85%. Either way it's far more tham 30% of total troops.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I would especially like to point out that it is a fallacy to claim that because the CS society uses high tech that people have to read.
The TECHNICAL CLASS CAN READ. Its the commoners that cant. The same commoners that for tens of thousands of years never could read anyway. It has only been in the last couple hundred years that the concept of teaching anyone but a scholar 'their letters' has even been a thing. But society has managed to work just fine. You don't have to know how to read to fire a rifle, to talk on a radio, to drive a truck, to cook a hamburger, to mop a floor.....and in the CS if you don't have to know how to read.....you don't.

Those commoners for tens of thousands of years wern't in a society with nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks. Your reference to them not needing to read when they were in mud huts, doesn't matter.

[Pepsi Jedi]

and things like radio don't need numbers technically. if there are only a couple channels you want the grunts using, you just simplify the interface to have just those, and use symbols.
"hey, what channel are we supposed ot be one again?"
"green triangle, like the LT said."
"ah, i had it on red square"

Again, if you turn all words and numbers into symbols, then the society would need "Literacy CS symbol language"

[Goliath Strongarm]

I think a lot of the debate is circled around "what, exactly, constitutes being literate, and what is a language?"

Schematics aren't words. They're pictures, with symbols representing different things.

Hair dryers and radios have pictures on the tags that show not to use them in the shower.

Like Eliakon, I can think of many times of dealing with foreign nationals that I couldn't speak with, where symbols and pantomimes got me through. A picture is worth a thousand words, after all. (I disagree, I'd say maybe more like 250 words, depending on the pic).

But, there are LOTS of ways that the written word can be replaced. So, literacy isn't needed for as everything, contrary to what people seem to think.

[implementor]

Rifts, and the Palladium system in general, is meant to be interpreted by the GM running it, he or she can (and should) make the interpretation that works best for that game. I personally go with the "illiteracy does not mean someone doesn't recognize letters, or some commonly used words" interpretation.

One thing, however, as a real-world example. There have been news reports of US troops training Afghani commanders that could not count higher than 10, and they just drew a box in the dirt and said "a platoon (or whatever) of soldiers is how many fit in a box this size" - and these were effective commanders who have been leading soldiers for quite some time, able to fully use, and train in the use, of their weapons, vehicles, and other equipment, and versed in military tactics. So, it's not unreasonable, just difficult for many who have been raised in a society where the vast majority of people are literate by age 6 to understand.

[Jorick]

China is pretty good proof that this can happen and work in a completely modern society. No knock against China. You gotta memorize each word symbol. I can't conceive of doing such a thing.

I'm sure many commonly used characters are known by most. But that doesn't mean one can read a newspaper, or hold a conversation via text. "Literacy" in China is understood as being able to read and write some large number of characters.

Pictographs and color codes can express a lot. On top of which, in a world where so much is automated, I think it would be even easier to get away with being illiterate than in mud hut times. And many town and villages, outside the supercities, aren't much better than mud hut versions (or, you know, are mud hut versions). Maybe worse.

I think it makes sense.

[Killer Cyborg]

so we are back to 30% of the illiterate don't know the alphabet. And have to rely on others.
If I may put this in some Real World Terms here.....
When I was in the military when in Iraq I had to work with troops from other nations. Many times we did not share a language, we did not even always share an ALPHABET. But that didn't stop us from doing stuff. We had picture cards we pantomimed, we used drawings....we made do. We preferred to use translators but that wasn't always an option.
This sounds like what the 70% of the 85% do...they get by and let the others do the heavy lifting (or the computers)....
They have been enslaved by the CS by invisible chains and they don't even realize it.

No.. we're not back to 30% of illiterate. We're at 30% that know their letters.

To quote the book:
"(85% of all grunts are illiterate). This is done either by reading the letters composing the word (assuming the character knows the alphabet; 70% don't) "

So that could be read as a flat 70% don't know their alphabet, (which is how I think it's meant) or the some what confusing 70% of 85%. Either way it's far more tham 30% of total troops.

Either way, you don't have to know the alphabet in order to recognize a word.

[eliakon]

so we are back to 30% of the illiterate don't know the alphabet. And have to rely on others.
If I may put this in some Real World Terms here.....
When I was in the military when in Iraq I had to work with troops from other nations. Many times we did not share a language, we did not even always share an ALPHABET. But that didn't stop us from doing stuff. We had picture cards we pantomimed, we used drawings....we made do. We preferred to use translators but that wasn't always an option.
This sounds like what the 70% of the 85% do...they get by and let the others do the heavy lifting (or the computers)....
They have been enslaved by the CS by invisible chains and they don't even realize it.

No.. we're not back to 30% of illiterate. We're at 30% that know their letters.

To quote the book:
"(85% of all grunts are illiterate). This is done either by reading the letters composing the word (assuming the character knows the alphabet; 70% don't) "

So that could be read as a flat 70% don't know their alphabet, (which is how I think it's meant) or the some what confusing 70% of 85%. Either way it's far more tham 30% of total troops.

no we are back to what I said
85% of the grunts are illiterate
Of the illiterate 30% don't even know their letters

[eliakon]

I would especially like to point out that it is a fallacy to claim that because the CS society uses high tech that people have to read.
The TECHNICAL CLASS CAN READ. Its the commoners that cant. The same commoners that for tens of thousands of years never could read anyway. It has only been in the last couple hundred years that the concept of teaching anyone but a scholar 'their letters' has even been a thing. But society has managed to work just fine. You don't have to know how to read to fire a rifle, to talk on a radio, to drive a truck, to cook a hamburger, to mop a floor.....and in the CS if you don't have to know how to read.....you don't.

Those commoners for tens of thousands of years wern't in a society with nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks. Your reference to them not needing to read when they were in mud huts, doesn't matter.

SO? No really SO?
It doesn't matter what magical tech they are using. They just have to know enough to push the button that turns it on and how to clean it. The guys that have to actually work on it? Yeah those are the Technical people. You know the ones who CAN read. But you don't have to be able to read to fire a rifle, or drive a tank, or talk on a radio, or even to use a laser designator to illuminate targets for cruise missiles. I know this because I have seen first hand all three done by people who can not read a word.....they just had to be taught by rote how to do things. Which is fine since most of those things don't even have labels.

[eliakon]

and things like radio don't need numbers technically. if there are only a couple channels you want the grunts using, you just simplify the interface to have just those, and use symbols.
"hey, what channel are we supposed ot be one again?"
"green triangle, like the LT said."
"ah, i had it on red square"

Again, if you turn all words and numbers into symbols, then the society would need "Literacy CS symbol language"

Its not turning all words and numbers into symbols. Its turning a tiny handful of things into symbols. Unless your claiming that everyone in our worlds Western societies has the Literacy: Common Symbols skill because we all understand all the various symbols and signs. And that every peasant and person in the middle ages had Literacy since they knew what the various signs and symbols of their time (like that 3 balls was a pawn shop) meant.
In which case we have just defined away the entire concept of Illiteracy as being not possible......

[Rallan]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June".

That is incredibly incorrect.
"Illiterate" does NOT mean "This person can NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ever read even a single word."
Although that level of illiteracy is possible, it's far from the only possible level of illiteracy.
If a person can only read their own name, they're illiterate.
If a person can only read their own name, and the months in the year, then they're still illiterate.
If a person can only read their own name, the months in the year, and the days of the week, then they're still illiterate.
"Illiterate" doesn't mean "100% illiterate, always."

The thing is that in the Coalition States, that's the level of illiteracy the government is aiming for. It's not a case of them being functionally illiterate because of a crummy underfunded education system that thinks Welding is more important than Wordsworth or something. It's a case of the state trying to make sure most of its population can't read because the ruins of Rifts Earth are full of dangerous old books that tell the truth of how the world really was.

Hence why "Rogue Scholar" is apparently an archetypal character so central to what the setting's all about that it's a character class in the main book. (although this entire facet of Rifts seems to have been forgotten by Palladium about five minutes after they realised that sourcebooks full of shiny new robots and monsters sell really well).

[Incriptus]

It's kind of ironic, due to this discussion I've spent some time looking into what is considered literacy ... and I think I've found that nobody knows. There seem to be as much disagreement on the definition among academia as there is on these very boards.

I guess it comes down to the game master's interpretation.

You'll have those who take the Illiterates can't recognize any symbol based visual images, and say they have to change the setting to make CS people at least partially literate.

Then you'll have those who think that Illiterates can't pick up an unfamiliar likely prose based literature and understand it. . . And thus the system works fine

And you'll have some inbetween.

They all end up in the same place though. They just disagree if they had to make a big change in the setting, or if they simply interpreted it in the correct way in the first place.

[Killer Cyborg]

So the grunt squad that loses their Mil-spec commander is sunk if they are in the hinterland for any length of time. You better hope their ration packs have a "gone off" color coding to save on the "does it say this is good until January or June".

That is incredibly incorrect.
"Illiterate" does NOT mean "This person can NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ever read even a single word."
Although that level of illiteracy is possible, it's far from the only possible level of illiteracy.
If a person can only read their own name, they're illiterate.
If a person can only read their own name, and the months in the year, then they're still illiterate.
If a person can only read their own name, the months in the year, and the days of the week, then they're still illiterate.
"Illiterate" doesn't mean "100% illiterate, always."

The thing is that in the Coalition States, that's the level of illiteracy the government is aiming for.

Source?

It's not a case of them being functionally illiterate because of a crummy underfunded education system that thinks Welding is more important than Wordsworth or something. It's a case of the state trying to make sure most of its population can't read because the ruins of Rifts Earth are full of dangerous old books that tell the truth of how the world really was.

I'm pretty certain that people being able to read the months of the year, or being able to read which room is the Men's Room, isn't the kind of thing that the CS is worried about.

Hence why "Rogue Scholar" is apparently an archetypal character so central to what the setting's all about that it's a character class in the main book. (although this entire facet of Rifts seems to have been forgotten by Palladium about five minutes after they realised that sourcebooks full of shiny new robots and monsters sell really well).

True dat.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's kind of ironic, due to this discussion I've spent some time looking into what is considered literacy ... and I think I've found that nobody knows. There seem to be as much disagreement on the definition among academia as there is on these very boards.

I guess it comes down to the game master's interpretation.

A Game Master can interpret the setting in such a way that he thinks that the setting makes sense, or he can interpret the setting in such a way that he thinks the setting does not make sense.
It always boggles me a bit when people deliberately choose the second option, then complain about the result.

In the real world,
-If a person can read their own name, and a handful of other words, they are not considered to be literate.
-If a person can recognize universal symbols (such as traffic signs, restroom signs, disabled parking, and don't-stick-these-scissors-in-the-electric-outlet type warnings), but cannot read a book, then they are not considered to be literate.
-If a person can recognize numbers, but cannot read a book, they are not considered to be literate.

But for some reason, when it comes to Rifts, suddenly people start using the word "Literate" in ways that nobody ever does in the real world. They go with overly-literal views to the extreme where it has been argued in the past that if you can read or write anything, then you're literate--that the moment a person draws their first letter 'A', that they transform from an illiterate into a literate person. OR they go with bizarrely metaphorical views, claiming that the ability to transform any visual icons into meaning is not only a kind of literacy, but that it is a kind of literacy that the writers had in mind when they describe the population as being "illiterate."

For me, I tend to take the words in the books to mean the same things that they mean in the real world, unless I have a specific reason not to.

In the real world, "literacy" means that you can read and write well enough to make it through a book.
The CS doesn't want people reading books.
I don't see any reason to believe that the CS is discouraging any level of literacy other than the kind that would allow a person to read the books that the CS doesn't want them to read.

If other people DO see reasons to believe that... I cannot fathom what those reasons are.