Neural Knife ? or other non-mace "neural" weapons

[Tor]

I have been watching this Rifts campaign on YouTube and they keep referring to one of the PCs having a 'neural knife', which I figure is like a more concealable neural mace or something in stabby-knife shape.

Only thing is I don't remember seeing it in a book. Does this ring a bell as something canon? Or maybe something non-canon from the rifters? Or some kind of home-brew?

We must have 2 dozen kinds of vibro-weapons at this point but I don't remember neural things besides the mace.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The closest thing that I can think of would be from HU:AU the Energy weapons in back.....and if the player or GM modifying the text so the stun feature of the Energy Stun Club worked across the board with all the Energy melee weapons in the list.

The other thing that comes to mind is the GM copy and pasting the Stun Baton stats into a Knife format.

[eliakon]

My Home-Brew senses are tingling.....

[Alrik Vas]

Home brew or no, it's a great idea.

[Tor]

Was checking the GMG since I heard that payload for neural mace was in it. Blaster Neural Whip from Triax is on 132, Electro-Mace on 133, AT-N20 Neural Stick on 137 (by Arma-Tech, not sure which book). I guess stick is closer to knife than club is? Still no payload mentioned.

I would think that if you could stab someone, you could possibly deliver an electric charge into them more effectively.

Vaguely remember the stun baton, I think from HU, only remember a stun gun in RMB. RGMG has stun rifle on 139 from Japan, on 150 is a neural disruptor arrow, 214 reprints basics of JAPE Defender from HU which had a Neural Disruptor in the PA.

[Jefffar]

Something like this?

I suspect the author wanted to out in Vibro-knife and had a synaptic misfire .

Edit to add: This little beauty.

[Tor]

I should have made a note of the episode and timestamp for when I heard it mentioned. If it comes up again I hope to reference it. I would have preferred to do it earlier to avoid spoilers though

If anyone wants to start at episode 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIec1Yg-imY and listen, maybe you'll notice it?

[SpiritInterface]

Putting Neural into a lethal weapon would negate the purpose of the less/non-lethal intent of Neural weapons.

[Raze_7]

As far as I know, there is no Neural Knife, or any Neural version of a lethal weapon. It's kind-of pointless; why would you want to stun a dead man?

Also, the Neural Mace is the mace that isn't. It's more like a baton that, on contact, feels like you're getting hit with either A) A mace, or B) Mace (the chemical). It isn't that hard to conceal, it looks like a rather thick, rather high-tech nightstick.

However, the Zapper/Mind-bleeder Neural Touch or Neural Strike attacks can have lethal intent.

[ShadowLogan]

AT-N20 Neural Stick on 137 (by Arma-Tech, not sure which book).

Rifts Japan. Basically it's club not a knife.

As far as a "knife" goes, Bionics SB (pg47 not to be confused with the Stinger system on pg93) has the Neural Stinger and Neural Disrupter Arrows (several books) that I suppose could be wielded like a knife.

Though I suspect it's probably home brewed Neural Mace-type to look like a knife, or something akin to the Amaki blast swords (or Kittani Plasma Weapon) only with neural disrupter (Merc Ops) instead of range weapon since I haven't seen the video.

[flatline]

If it's the youtube campaign that was mentioned here a while ago, it's very specifically a neural knife.

Player wanted it so player and GM negotiated the mechanics. In short, the player isn't interested in non-lethal anything, but wants to make sure the opponent can't defend himself after the first hit.

[Razzinold]

I always picture the neural mace functioning like the ones in Demolition Man.
Stallone barely touches it, if contact is made at all, to the side of her head and she's knocked out, he doesn't actually club her with it.

As for a neural-knife I think it could be a knife and still be used as a non-lethal weapon. You sneak up behind them and stab them in the arm or leg and down they go, it would barely even have to pierce them. If you don't chose to use it as a stun weapon then you have a backup knife for a lethal take down.

[say652]

Neural knife, him stunning an opponent then killing them.
Seems legit.

My sdc campaign character had a ElectroStun Sword that worked like a NeuroStun plus the added benefit of slicing and dicing.
But since it wasn't quite high-tech setting the weapon only had a charge for three or four strikes.

[Tor]

Putting Neural into a lethal weapon would negate the purpose of the less/non-lethal intent of Neural weapons.

Knives aren't necessarily that lethal though, particularly if you're stabbing a toughy like a juicer. They are moreso if we apply blood loss rules, but then you have some guys with regen who can recover from it. Or else when they're knocked out and tied up, you might be able to psychicly heal them.

[taalismn]

Technological equivalents of enchanted or TW weapons, I see, like magic blades with a paralysis spell built in, or TW blackjacks with Sleep or Befuddlement tacked on.
Neural Whips, on the other hand, would likely have a fetish following in some parts of society.

[say652]

Neuro whip fetishes,
Lolololol

[SpiritInterface]

Putting Neural into a lethal weapon would negate the purpose of the less/non-lethal intent of Neural weapons.

Knives aren't necessarily that lethal though, particularly if you're stabbing a toughy like a juicer. They are moreso if we apply blood loss rules, but then you have some guys with regen who can recover from it. Or else when they're knocked out and tied up, you might be able to psychicly heal them.

Knives are Lethal Weapons! Cherry picking very rare cases where due to special powers, tech, Magic, or Psionics are less likely to die from being stabbed does not negate the fact that a knife is a LETHAL weapon.

[Blue_Lion]

I think it is most likely a home brewed knife shaped weapon with a blunt blade. used like a knife and the leading edge has a nero mace like affect.

It may be inspired by real life shock knifes.

[say652]

I think the goal was to cut and stun at the same time.

Which would be very awesome, you don't need to kill your foe in order to win.

[Blue_Lion]

The shock knifes we use in the army do not cut. It is a less than lethal weapon wielded like a knife. Cutting as well kind of defeats the primary purpose of less than lethal weapons.

[eliakon]

I am pretty sure that this was not intended to be a less than lethal weapon...
I am pretty sure this was intended to be a "more lethal than regular" weapon, that stunned the person while damaging them so they cant fight back and you can kill them more efficiently.

[Blue_Lion]

I am pretty sure that this was not intended to be a less than lethal weapon...
I am pretty sure this was intended to be a "more lethal than regular" weapon, that stunned the person while damaging them so they cant fight back and you can kill them more efficiently.

Well I did not watch the cast where they used it. But assuming it is like real life model is a good place to start.

[Tor]

Knives are Lethal Weapons! Cherry picking very rare cases where due to special powers, tech, Magic, or Psionics are less likely to die from being stabbed does not negate the fact that a knife is a LETHAL weapon.

I don't think Rifts got blood loss rules until the conversion book and even then it was only 1 SDC per minute. We didn't have any clotting rules and no rules on how long it took to apply first aid or a bandage, so I guess by RCB yes they were potentially lethal, but still not impossible to intervene with.

Ancient Conventional Weapons (RMBp243) just were not that impressive. Not even when they were edged or stabby weapons which should logically hack you up.

D4 from a throwing axe; only as good as your basic punch or kick, but you got some range
D6 from a short sword, short spear or javelin; only as good as a karate chop, judo flip or higher-level kick
D8 from a military fork, scythe, long spear, trident, falchion, broadsword or morning star; only as good as a level 3 martial artist kick attack

Even guns had issues like this, with the .22 or .25 revolver only doing D6. Even if you used the optional gunshot rules from RCB, we're talking a 1/3 chance of 1 HP, 1/3 chance of 2 HP, 1/6 chance of 3 HP, so it wasn't that horrid.

If blood loss had been direct to HP like in HU instead of SDC then those new rules could've been a bigger problem with the cutting/stabbing weapons. Otherwise your average man at arms could have about a 1/2 hour to get the wound patched up. Although I can see how that would be a problem, and multiple wounds would stack up, will give ya that.

[PSI-Lence]

never heard of them in the books but have home brewed some similar giving the option to either cut/stab or to use the flat side or back of the knife to stun/disorient but doing less than a neural mace with the compacted size

[eliakon]

Knives are Lethal Weapons! Cherry picking very rare cases where due to special powers, tech, Magic, or Psionics are less likely to die from being stabbed does not negate the fact that a knife is a LETHAL weapon.

I don't think Rifts got blood loss rules until the conversion book and even then it was only 1 SDC per minute. We didn't have any clotting rules and no rules on how long it took to apply first aid or a bandage, so I guess by RCB yes they were potentially lethal, but still not impossible to intervene with.

Ancient Conventional Weapons (RMBp243) just were not that impressive. Not even when they were edged or stabby weapons which should logically hack you up.

D4 from a throwing axe; only as good as your basic punch or kick, but you got some range
D6 from a short sword, short spear or javelin; only as good as a karate chop, judo flip or higher-level kick
D8 from a military fork, scythe, long spear, trident, falchion, broadsword or morning star; only as good as a level 3 martial artist kick attack

Even guns had issues like this, with the .22 or .25 revolver only doing D6. Even if you used the optional gunshot rules from RCB, we're talking a 1/3 chance of 1 HP, 1/3 chance of 2 HP, 1/6 chance of 3 HP, so it wasn't that horrid.

If blood loss had been direct to HP like in HU instead of SDC then those new rules could've been a bigger problem with the cutting/stabbing weapons. Otherwise your average man at arms could have about a 1/2 hour to get the wound patched up. Although I can see how that would be a problem, and multiple wounds would stack up, will give ya that.

I am going to have to say that claiming that guns, knives and swords are not lethal weapons because they don't do enough damage seems to be an example of....well I don't know what it is an example of actually. Those are sort of the definitions of lethal weaponry.....
to claim that just because the damage is not 'high enough' and thus they are not lethal sort of makes a mockery of the entire concept of lethal weapons. Especially if we are using the damage soak of a mid level adventurer as the cut off, not that of a generic 1st level common person......

[flatline]

Knives are Lethal Weapons! Cherry picking very rare cases where due to special powers, tech, Magic, or Psionics are less likely to die from being stabbed does not negate the fact that a knife is a LETHAL weapon.

I don't think Rifts got blood loss rules until the conversion book and even then it was only 1 SDC per minute. We didn't have any clotting rules and no rules on how long it took to apply first aid or a bandage, so I guess by RCB yes they were potentially lethal, but still not impossible to intervene with.

Ancient Conventional Weapons (RMBp243) just were not that impressive. Not even when they were edged or stabby weapons which should logically hack you up.

D4 from a throwing axe; only as good as your basic punch or kick, but you got some range
D6 from a short sword, short spear or javelin; only as good as a karate chop, judo flip or higher-level kick
D8 from a military fork, scythe, long spear, trident, falchion, broadsword or morning star; only as good as a level 3 martial artist kick attack

Even guns had issues like this, with the .22 or .25 revolver only doing D6. Even if you used the optional gunshot rules from RCB, we're talking a 1/3 chance of 1 HP, 1/3 chance of 2 HP, 1/6 chance of 3 HP, so it wasn't that horrid.

If blood loss had been direct to HP like in HU instead of SDC then those new rules could've been a bigger problem with the cutting/stabbing weapons. Otherwise your average man at arms could have about a 1/2 hour to get the wound patched up. Although I can see how that would be a problem, and multiple wounds would stack up, will give ya that.

I am going to have to say that claiming that guns, knives and swords are not lethal weapons because they don't do enough damage seems to be an example of....well I don't know what it is an example of actually. Those are sort of the definitions of lethal weaponry.....
to claim that just because the damage is not 'high enough' and thus they are not lethal sort of makes a mockery of the entire concept of lethal weapons. Especially if we are using the damage soak of a mid level adventurer as the cut off, not that of a generic 1st level common person......

It highlights that the game mechanics don't do a good job simulating what we expect to happen if you slit a juicer's throat from ear to ear with a 1d4 knife.

[eliakon]

Knives are Lethal Weapons! Cherry picking very rare cases where due to special powers, tech, Magic, or Psionics are less likely to die from being stabbed does not negate the fact that a knife is a LETHAL weapon.

I don't think Rifts got blood loss rules until the conversion book and even then it was only 1 SDC per minute. We didn't have any clotting rules and no rules on how long it took to apply first aid or a bandage, so I guess by RCB yes they were potentially lethal, but still not impossible to intervene with.

Ancient Conventional Weapons (RMBp243) just were not that impressive. Not even when they were edged or stabby weapons which should logically hack you up.

D4 from a throwing axe; only as good as your basic punch or kick, but you got some range
D6 from a short sword, short spear or javelin; only as good as a karate chop, judo flip or higher-level kick
D8 from a military fork, scythe, long spear, trident, falchion, broadsword or morning star; only as good as a level 3 martial artist kick attack

Even guns had issues like this, with the .22 or .25 revolver only doing D6. Even if you used the optional gunshot rules from RCB, we're talking a 1/3 chance of 1 HP, 1/3 chance of 2 HP, 1/6 chance of 3 HP, so it wasn't that horrid.

If blood loss had been direct to HP like in HU instead of SDC then those new rules could've been a bigger problem with the cutting/stabbing weapons. Otherwise your average man at arms could have about a 1/2 hour to get the wound patched up. Although I can see how that would be a problem, and multiple wounds would stack up, will give ya that.

I am going to have to say that claiming that guns, knives and swords are not lethal weapons because they don't do enough damage seems to be an example of....well I don't know what it is an example of actually. Those are sort of the definitions of lethal weaponry.....
to claim that just because the damage is not 'high enough' and thus they are not lethal sort of makes a mockery of the entire concept of lethal weapons. Especially if we are using the damage soak of a mid level adventurer as the cut off, not that of a generic 1st level common person......

It highlights that the game mechanics don't do a good job simulating what we expect to happen if you slit a juicer's throat from ear to ear with a 1d4 knife.

That is a GM problem not a mechanics problem.....
if you stab the juicer randomly with a 1d4 knife I can buy that it wont hurt him much...
but if you hold him down and slit his throat its not just 1d4+PS damage.....that is where the GM checks out the rules on automatic kills and deathblows and the like....

[13eowulf]

Merc Ops has Neural Knuckle Dusters.... Not sure if that helps or anything, but since the topic heading mentioned 'other non-mace "neural" weapons' I figured I would throw it out there.

[Raze_7]

That is a GM problem not a mechanics problem.....
if you stab the juicer randomly with a 1d4 knife I can buy that it wont hurt him much...
but if you hold him down and slit his throat its not just 1d4+PS damage.....that is where the GM checks out the rules on automatic kills and deathblows and the like....

Interesting. However, the question is: Can the Bio-comp or any of the other regeneration systems synthesize new blood, or oxygenate the blood itself long enough to allow regeneration?

I would think not.

[eliakon]

That is a GM problem not a mechanics problem.....
if you stab the juicer randomly with a 1d4 knife I can buy that it wont hurt him much...
but if you hold him down and slit his throat its not just 1d4+PS damage.....that is where the GM checks out the rules on automatic kills and deathblows and the like....

Interesting. However, the question is: Can the Bio-comp or any of the other regeneration systems synthesize new blood, or oxygenate the blood itself long enough to allow regeneration?

I would think not.

No, which is why slitting their throat will kill them. But just stabbing them is not, because it seems that they heal so fast that they may not bleed significantly before their body patches the comparatively tiny cut up...and their body has been reinforced and toughened anyway so that knife has a harder time penetrating....

[Raze_7]

That is a GM problem not a mechanics problem.....
if you stab the juicer randomly with a 1d4 knife I can buy that it wont hurt him much...
but if you hold him down and slit his throat its not just 1d4+PS damage.....that is where the GM checks out the rules on automatic kills and deathblows and the like....

Interesting. However, the question is: Can the Bio-comp or any of the other regeneration systems synthesize new blood, or oxygenate the blood itself long enough to allow regeneration?

I would think not.

No, which is why slitting their throat will kill them. But just stabbing them is not, because it seems that they heal so fast that they may not bleed significantly before their body patches the comparatively tiny cut up...and their body has been reinforced and toughened anyway so that knife has a harder time penetrating....

Which would mean that whoever slit a Juicer's throat, with it's extra muscle and "reinforced skin" would have to have a large PS stat. I'd rule at at least 14 or 15.

[eliakon]

That is a GM problem not a mechanics problem.....
if you stab the juicer randomly with a 1d4 knife I can buy that it wont hurt him much...
but if you hold him down and slit his throat its not just 1d4+PS damage.....that is where the GM checks out the rules on automatic kills and deathblows and the like....

Interesting. However, the question is: Can the Bio-comp or any of the other regeneration systems synthesize new blood, or oxygenate the blood itself long enough to allow regeneration?

I would think not.

No, which is why slitting their throat will kill them. But just stabbing them is not, because it seems that they heal so fast that they may not bleed significantly before their body patches the comparatively tiny cut up...and their body has been reinforced and toughened anyway so that knife has a harder time penetrating....

Which would mean that whoever slit a Juicer's throat, with it's extra muscle and "reinforced skin" would have to have a large PS stat. I'd rule at at least 14 or 15.

Oh I didn't say it would be easy.....but if you do it then its not some random 1d4 damage attack. Its a deathblow....

[SummerRider]

I should have made a note of the episode and timestamp for when I heard it mentioned. If it comes up again I hope to reference it. I would have preferred to do it earlier to avoid spoilers though

If anyone wants to start at episode 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIec1Yg-imY and listen, maybe you'll notice it?

In that episode that you linked at 28:00 he describes what a "neural knife" is. It's sort of like a tazzer that stuns you when it hits you. He goes on to mention that the "character's" main method in combat is to disable you with the "neural knife" and then slit their throat.

[Tor]

I am going to have to say that claiming that guns, knives and swords are not lethal weapons because they don't do enough damage seems to be an example of....well I don't know what it is an example of actually. Those are sort of the definitions of lethal weaponry.....
to claim that just because the damage is not 'high enough' and thus they are not lethal sort of makes a mockery of the entire concept of lethal weapons. Especially if we are using the damage soak of a mid level adventurer as the cut off, not that of a generic 1st level common person......

Throwing axes IRL would be lethal weapons, just pointing out that the in-game stats make them do as much damage as a punch, the only difference being you lose 1 SDC per minute until you bind the wound.

Punches can be lethal weapons to, anything that inflicts damage can be lethal. Just saying that some of these aren't particularly frightening compared to unarmed attacks.

game mechanics don't do a good job simulating what we expect to happen if you slit a juicer's throat from ear to ear with a 1d4 knife.

To do that with any decent force you'd probably need to pull from behind (like the cute mouse lady did in the Lone Star comic) and some HtHs give auto-crit from behind. The lack of called shot hit locations for living beings might also have something to do with it. There's those %s we could use from ... the weapons and armor book? I need to make a note of where those are since they sound useful.

[say652]

Technically enough bee stings or papercuts can kill you.
Goal is doing it fast.

[Tor]

papercuts can kill you

A terrifying way to go

[Blue_Lion]

I am going to have to say that claiming that guns, knives and swords are not lethal weapons because they don't do enough damage seems to be an example of....well I don't know what it is an example of actually. Those are sort of the definitions of lethal weaponry.....
to claim that just because the damage is not 'high enough' and thus they are not lethal sort of makes a mockery of the entire concept of lethal weapons. Especially if we are using the damage soak of a mid level adventurer as the cut off, not that of a generic 1st level common person......

Throwing axes IRL would be lethal weapons, just pointing out that the in-game stats make them do as much damage as a punch, the only difference being you lose 1 SDC per minute until you bind the wound.

Punches can be lethal weapons to, anything that inflicts damage can be lethal. Just saying that some of these aren't particularly frightening compared to unarmed attacks.

game mechanics don't do a good job simulating what we expect to happen if you slit a juicer's throat from ear to ear with a 1d4 knife.

To do that with any decent force you'd probably need to pull from behind (like the cute mouse lady did in the Lone Star comic) and some HtHs give auto-crit from behind. The lack of called shot hit locations for living beings might also have something to do with it. There's those %s we could use from ... the weapons and armor book? I need to make a note of where those are since they sound useful.

Would slitting a throat not be a death blow dealing damage straight to hp, making it much more lethal. Even in real life a slit throat is not instant death (can be quick but not instant) and some people survive it some how. The ones that survive it are what charters in a rpg represent not the thousands of people that have died going number 2.

[infernocanuck]

Hi there! GM of the Youtube campaign you have been mentioning, Tor.

As has been postulated, the neural-knife is 100% home brew. The Player character liked the idea of the neural mace, but wanted something more concealable and something that was congruent with his WP knife skill. All I did was use the stats of a usual SDC knife, and added in the effects of the neural mace. It has been used in the campaign with some very good efficacy against specific targets and hasn't created any issues, at least for our group!

[PSI-Lence]

Hi there! GM of the Youtube campaign you have been mentioning, Tor.

As has been postulated, the neural-knife is 100% home brew. The Player character liked the idea of the neural mace, but wanted something more concealable and something that was congruent with his WP knife skill. All I did was use the stats of a usual SDC knife, and added in the effects of the neural mace. It has been used in the campaign with some very good efficacy against specific targets and hasn't created any issues, at least for our group!

i have been listening to this since i saw this post and episode 50 it is the same stats as the neural mace (which does seem a bit over powered for something half the size)

but i am liking it as it goes along anyway