limits of Insert Memory?

[barna10]

NOTE: This not a "Can you.." thread where I am asking for a ruling!

Given that Insert Memory allows a faster teaching of spells, how far would you allow this to go? Would you allow Insert Memory to be used to teach one a skill? If a skill or spell, why not the memories of an entire O.C.C.? Even memories beyond 1st level should be possible.

For instance, would you allow a 1st level anything to be implanted with a 15th level character's memories, skills, o.c.c. abilities, etc.? If not, why not? Also, if your answer is "It's munchkin" or "unbalancing", please don't bother.

[G]

Are you referring to instill knowledge which is grants temporary skills?

There are ways for someone to gain skills, such as some faerie type beings in spirit west who can teach you one skill a year in a short period of time. There are also memory trees in South America 2(?) that hold knowledge.

If you had a ritual instead of an incantation, and it cost about 10x the ppe, I could see it being more effective, but would be used to more create a clone of yourself using someone else's body - which should be considered an evil act. Possibly used after a permanent mind wipe on the subject.

As for how far it goes, that would entirely depend on the circumstances. The power levels in PB games vary widely... modding a spell to suit your purposes may be more appropriate for some games than others.

[barna10]

Are you referring to instill knowledge which is grants temporary skills?

There are ways for someone to gain skills, such as some faerie type beings in spirit west who can teach you one skill a year in a short period of time. There are also memory trees in South America 2(?) that hold knowledge.

If you had a ritual instead of an incantation, and it cost about 10x the ppe, I could see it being more effective, but would be used to more create a clone of yourself using someone else's body - which should be considered an evil act. Possibly used after a permanent mind wipe on the subject.

As for how far it goes, that would entirely depend on the circumstances. The power levels in PB games vary widely... modding a spell to suit your purposes may be more appropriate for some games than others.

No, I'm referring to the psionic power, Insert Memory.

[Cinos]

Insert Memory is one of those things where I don't feel a blanket ruling is a good idea (as then you set precedent which is then abuse-able) I leave it more in the air, depending on the Level and strength of the Psi User, and the Level of the target, as well as their personality, how the memory relates, etc. For example, inserting the memory of the Psionic and the target being friends is a very broad subject, thus a difficult one to implant, perhaps completely impossible if the target is someone who is very reluctant to make friends for some reason. A general with a very orderly life may take easy to a memory inserted of him filing a paper, but less about bumping into the psionic at a bar.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'm using PF2 for my reference, so if something contradicts what I say give me a book and page number so I can check (things can change). Anyways, on to my answer ...

It wouldn't go very far at all. This isn't really inserting memories so much as hypnotic suggestion. In my book it gives the example of inserting the character's brother being killed by wolfen. The victim is the one who visualizes his/her brother, the family, etc. The psychic doesn't know these things (usually). So the psychic makes the suggestion and the victim's mind fills in the blanks. It also mentions that the character could realize it's fake if he/she never had a brother. So even though it's permanent it has limits of the victim.

With a spell, I can see this helping. Magic requires belief. Each spell must therefore require belief. Insert Memory makes you believe something. Get it?

Won't help so much with skills. Tell someone he's the greatest baker in all the land and he may believe it, but that won't impart the skills. Tell someone they're a palladin and I have this flash of Don Quixote (sp?).

Now the whole comical trying to fill the suggestion as described above ca be fun for a life, but remember it won't change who the character is. Tell a thief he's a palladin and he might think he WAS a palladin, but he left that foolish life behind. It's just not in his nature and reactions can be unpredictable.

Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience. Please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[barna10]

I was thinking of a device that could achieve memory manipulation on par with *Total Recall* or *Dark City*

[Prysus]

I was thinking of a device that could achieve memory manipulation on par with *Total Recall* or *Dark City*

Greetings and Salutations. That's not really the psionic then. At best, even if you could insert actual memories, you'd have to break a skill up into each lesson of that training. So if you train every day for a year to gain level 1 base proficiency in a skill, that's 365 times you'd need to use Insert Memory. It's called Insert Memory, singular, and training consists of many, many, many memories.

If you're looking for something like that in Palladium though, I'm thinking magic. Magic circles to be specific. It was a magic circle that rewrote Xy into Thoth. Now THAT was manipulation. I think there might (can't recall for sure) that can do something similar (on a smaller scale) in PF Book 2: Old Ones in the Old Ones Complex adventure, but I could be wrong.

Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[barna10]

I was thinking of a device that could achieve memory manipulation on par with *Total Recall* or *Dark City*

Greetings and Salutations. That's not really the psionic then. At best, even if you could insert actual memories, you'd have to break a skill up into each lesson of that training. So if you train every day for a year to gain level 1 base proficiency in a skill, that's 365 times you'd need to use Insert Memory. It's called Insert Memory, singular, and training consists of many, many, many memories.

Problem with this reasoning is Mysteries of Magic which describes Insert Memory being used to decrease the time in which a spell can learned/taught. The use of Insert Memory in teaching a spell reduces the time to learn the spell from 2 days per level to 10 minutes per level.

Again, this isn't an "is it possible" thread. Not looking for permission or an argument, just a discussion.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. The Mysteries of Magic reference disproves nothing of what I said. Palladium is very specific in that "belief" is a key element of magic. If Insert Memory makes you believe something is true, then you believe it. Believe and belief are variations of the same word (for note).

And, for the record, your original post asks if you'd allow it, and if not why. I said why not, and it was not a matter of munchinism. If you don't want to hear the why nots, remove that from your original post. Of course, if this is only to hear people say you're right, then that's not really a discussion either. Discussions are two people sharing views. While I disagree with you, you could always try to prove your point instead of asking those who disagree to stop.

Also, I mentioned how I would allow it and the limitations of such. So I followed the point there as well. Don't ask questions like "Would you" and "why not" if you don't want answers. Saves everyone trouble.

Anyways, typing on a phone and need sleep for work. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mysteries of Magic which describes Insert Memory being used to decrease the time in which a spell can learned/taught. The use of Insert Memory in teaching a spell reduces the time to learn the spell from 2 days per level to 10 minutes per level.

Care to quote the relevant passage?

[barna10]

Greetings and Salutations. The Mysteries of Magic reference disproves nothing of what I said. Palladium is very specific in that "belief" is a key element of magic. If Insert Memory makes you believe something is true, then you believe it. Believe and belief are variations of the same word (for note).

And, for the record, your original post asks if you'd allow it, and if not why. I said why not, and it was not a matter of munchinism. If you don't want to hear the why nots, remove that from your original post. Of course, if this is only to hear people say you're right, then that's not really a discussion either. Discussions are two people sharing views. While I disagree with you, you could always try to prove your point instead of asking those who disagree to stop.

Also, I mentioned how I would allow it and the limitations of such. So I followed the point there as well. Don't ask questions like "Would you" and "why not" if you don't want answers. Saves everyone trouble.

Anyways, typing on a phone and need sleep for work. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Belief does not matter for Insert Memory, says so in the description.

Also, your post did not say why "you" wouldn't allow it, it stated why, in absolute terms, it wouldn't work. Not the purpose of this thread. Thanks.

[Killer Cyborg]

Greetings and Salutations. The Mysteries of Magic reference disproves nothing of what I said. Palladium is very specific in that "belief" is a key element of magic. If Insert Memory makes you believe something is true, then you believe it. Believe and belief are variations of the same word (for note).

And, for the record, your original post asks if you'd allow it, and if not why. I said why not, and it was not a matter of munchinism. If you don't want to hear the why nots, remove that from your original post. Of course, if this is only to hear people say you're right, then that's not really a discussion either. Discussions are two people sharing views. While I disagree with you, you could always try to prove your point instead of asking those who disagree to stop.

Also, I mentioned how I would allow it and the limitations of such. So I followed the point there as well. Don't ask questions like "Would you" and "why not" if you don't want answers. Saves everyone trouble.

Anyways, typing on a phone and need sleep for work. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Belief does not matter for Insert Memory, says so in the description.

It DOES work for spells, though, which was his point.
Insert Memory doesn't have to help by instilling spell knowledge, but only the memory of being able to cast the spell, which would instill belief, which would allow you to cast it.
If you follow.
If you don't, then ask more questions.

Also, your post did not say why "you" wouldn't allow it, it stated why, in absolute terms, it wouldn't work. Not the purpose of this thread. Thanks.

I'm pretty sure that the idea not working is most likely the reason why he wouldn't allow it.
Whether or not you agree that the idea wouldn't work, it's pretty clear that would be his reason.

[Prysus]

Mysteries of Magic which describes Insert Memory being used to decrease the time in which a spell can learned/taught. The use of Insert Memory in teaching a spell reduces the time to learn the spell from 2 days per level to 10 minutes per level.

Care to quote the relevant passage?

Greetings and Salutations. First time I've been at home, internet connection, access to my books, and had the time all at the same time (all other posts were from my phone at work). Anyways, I'll answer your request.

Certain psychic abilities can cut down on this time, however. If the student or the teacher has Telepathy, he can directly see the metnal imaging and constructs, word sequence, and focus in his teacher's mind, rather than trying to imagine them or work them out from descriptions and observation, reducing the learning time by half. In the rare case of a teacher with Insert Memory Super-Psionic power, teaching can be reduced to 10 minutes per level of the spell! While the recipient usually needs a day or two to practice, the knowledge itself is transferred in minutes, along with whatever else the teacher might wish to implant.

It goes on a bit more about how using this can be risky (at the mercy of the power) and rare (most casters don't have super psionics). It also goes on to say ...

Insert Memory and other psionics can not be used to give spell casting abilities to those who don't already know Wizardry.

Of course, this passage indicates that you can't teach a character an O.C.C. via the power.

Insert Memory (psionic) can be found in PF2 (as well as PF1, but shorter and less detailed) and HU2. I can't find any mention of it in Rifts, Nightbane, or BtS. I stopped looking at that point. To help look at the power we see things like ...

...innocuous false memories or ones that deal with something that character wanted to know/remember, may not be resisted at all

I found this one interesting because non-harmful ones can't be resisted. This is all the more interesting since things the character would want to know (such as a spell) can't be resisted, but Mysteries of Magic mentions (same section I quoted above, but a little bit later) how the student has to open his mind (making himself vulnerable) in order to learn a spell. Either this means that learning a spell is harmful, or it means that this is an inconsistency, change, or possible oversight.

The memory is completely convincing ...

But even if the victim disbelieves the memory or realizes it's false, it still remains.

The first quote is one of those things that made me start with the whole belief thing, though I'll admit the second quote does mention disbelieving (which is what I think barna10 was referencing earlier).

For example, the psionic could tell the victim ...

Things like, "We met at the travern last night;" or, "I heard a rumor about ..." and similar. When asked where he heard that, the character won't remember ...

I mention these two because it shows no actual memory being implanted. The first mentions "tell the victim" along with a quote that follows. Later they show more quotes, and it even says the victim won't remember where/how he heard it. If a memory was implanted, he'd have that false memory. Things like this are why I say it's more a Hypnotic Suggestion variation than any implanting memories or knowledge.

Similarly, if implanting a memory of childhood (as mentioned in the psionic description) this means that the psychic must either have a detailed knowledge of the victim (how his brother looked, home, where every item was located, etc.) to make the memory realistic (otherwise it would fail immediately), or the victim fills in the gaps (which means it can't impart knowledge the victim has no way of knowing). The former would make the power nearly useless (especially since in PF you won't have videos or even photographs to help). This suggests to me the latter is far more likely.

Of course, the Mysteries of Magic quote does suggest imparting actual knowledge (as far as I can tell). This seems to contradict the original write-up (or I haven't figured out how the two work together yet). Again this could mean an inconsistency, a change, or an oversight by the writer (maybe just an interpretation I'm missing, but I'm guessing it's more of a literal reading of the psi-power name).

Another potential issue is that in the Mysteries of Magic passage, it mentions how the knowledge is transmitted over several minutes. Now Insert Memory doesn't really discuss how long it takes to implant (other than it lasts permanent), but having it take several minutes isn't even hinted at. Actually, psionics tend to be instant unless stated to be otherwise, and they show examples of using simple lines to implant the memory. This is another instance of me just not seeing the psionic write-up and the Mysteries of Magic blurb meshing together.

Anyways, I think that's all for now. That should be enough to make a fairly informed decision (though if I left something key out someone else can feel free to add it). Hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. For the record, with my previous posts I was going solely off of the PF2 psionic power description. I didn't recall the Mysteries of Magic variation until I read it for this post.

[barna10]

there is a spell that doese all the things you want. psionically, A mind bond does it temporarily.
but using instill memory... is not a permanent solution. unless your burning ME points..
so the only other way is teaching it, (And as others mentioned psionic training of spells reduces learning time)

Sorry, not following. The only spell I can think of is Instill Knowledge, and it's temporary. Insert Memory is permanent and DOES NOT burn ME points. Not sure what you are referring to.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Your OP is odd, Barna. Not asking for anyone's opinion on a "ruling", then asking how they'd rule it...

Using Insert Memory as a learning aide is one thing.

If an "Insert Memory" effect like you are describing was used, I'd say that straight up duplication of skills, memories, and/or knowledge would serve as something like a neural transfer. You wouldn't get a person with a bunch of new junk stuffed in their skull, you'd get a new body for the person who'd served as a template for the transfer. Without a precautionary Mind Wipe to clean the slate, you might even end up with two whole sets of memories, personalities, etc. vying for control or mashed into one dysfunctional whole.

No way a straight up psionic power or simple spell would produce such effects. This is butting up against super high technology, Splugorth Bio-Wizardry, or a psychic equivalent. The process would be expensive, highly involved, and dangerous, with all sorts of possible side-effects.

It would be an interesting way to cheat death short of using something like the Circle of Soul Transference from PF Old Ones.

[Killer Cyborg]

After reading Prysus' thorough quoting of the text, I'd say that the most likely explanation is that the writer of Mysteries of Magic misunderstood the nature of the power, and the references to that power in learning spells should be ignored.
Barring that (as requested in the original post), I'd say that the new text creates a new function of the power. The power now works as described in each book. It can work like a hypnotic suggestion, OR it can be used to implant visuals and such for the purpose of learning spells.
But ONLY in these two ways, as they are the only two ways described in canon.

So if it's not learning spells, or some kind of hypnotic suggestion, the answer is going to be "No. That won't work."
No skill teaching, no OCC training, nada.

[Tor]

Mysteries of Magic mentions (same section I quoted above, but a little bit later) how the student has to open his mind (making himself vulnerable) in order to learn a spell. Either this means that learning a spell is harmful, or it means that this is an inconsistency, change, or possible oversight.

Maybe it means that they open themselves by not resisting whatever magic spell is being cast on them, but that doesn't impart an awareness of WHAT magic spell is being cast on them? So perhaps the mage that is supposedly helping them learn magic via Insert Memory might REALLY be casting a Domination spell on them or something like that. Kind of like how you make yourself vulnerable if you go to hug someone, not because hugs are harmful (bears aside) but because your hugging partner might be a HeadHunter Assassin about to slip a vibro-rune-blade into your liver.

Mysteries of Magic passage, it mentions how the knowledge is transmitted over several minutes. Now Insert Memory doesn't really discuss how long it takes to implant (other than it lasts permanent), but having it take several minutes isn't even hinted at. Actually, psionics tend to be instant unless stated to be otherwise, and they show examples of using simple lines to implant the memory. This is another instance of me just not seeing the psionic write-up and the Mysteries of Magic blurb meshing together.

One way to interpret this is that to learn a spell, the Insert Memory power would have to be used many times. Like say you had to remember 40 things to learn a spell, and a psychic could use it 4 times per melee, it would take 10 melees (2 and a half minutes) to insert all the required memories associated with a spell.

pf2 version of the power has a me or isp cost for perm aditions. Otherwise they last only hours.

Odd how that is with creating memories since mind wipe allows a permanent deletion of a single memory without a permanent cost.

Also: how lame is the permanet cost of a Dream Maker's dream kill when he can just create a dream portal next to a sleeper, pull them into it, and kill them bodily in the dreamstream simply for a temporary ISP cost?

[barna10]

Also: how lame is the permanet cost of a Dream Maker's dream kill when he can just create a dream portal next to a sleeper, pull them into it, and kill them bodily in the dreamstream simply for a temporary ISP cost?

How lame is most of Palladium that inane permanent effects, like changing a memory, have such high costs as permanent ME or ISP losses yet something like an Annihilate spell does not. Makes no sense. Like the Dream Maker ability, death seems like a bigger effect than screwing with someone's memory, but apparently not in the megaverse.

[Tor]

inane permanent effects, like changing a memory, have such high costs as permanent ME or ISP losses yet something like an Annihilate spell does not. death seems like a bigger effect than screwing with someone's memory

I dunno, killing may rid one of an enemy, but the alteration of memory can create new allies. A fire bolt is cheap enough and can rid you of a street thief out for your wallet, but doing Someone Makes Them or Transformation on the guy, and you have yourself a new minion to ambush and assassinate your enemies in the next alley.

[tuvermage]

Taking the OP "for instance" Yes, I would allow a level 15 level character with insert memory to add to a level 1 character. over time and many uses the level one would be able to gain a skill and or experience. But remember it's "insert memory" not "insert memories" Lets take the skill of chemistry (because I am actually a chemist) If I personally had insert memory, I could help my cousin learn chemistry by giving her my memories of chemistry. However, I could not give her all my knowledge, memories and experiences in one go. I might be able to give her one equation at a time. This would take severial hundreds of insert memories, just to get her to a level one chemistry. As a GM I would require the player to get enough expereince to gain a one level before they got the skill with each insert memory counting as 25 experience.

This would spend up the learning process, but it would still take a lot of time and ISP.

[Mack]

Locked for Necroposting.