snipers

[Tags]

This has bugged me for a while, but why does Rifts and Chaos Earth, I guess, lack a sniper OCC? Just about everything else has been done. Yea there is a "sniper" skill and some classes can "snipe". But let's face it, sniping requires an advanced level of training, and there are so many more possibilities with a sniper OCC.

[PSI-Lence]

well sure you can make anything into a sniper, since snipers are normally picked from the marksmen of basic ranks

any extra training for snipers would be reflected in the occ related skills. (maybe with special skills like control breathing etc for that class only to make them better snipers than someone with the same stats of a different occ)

that said i would not argue seeing a specialized sniper occ, but i feel ful conversion borgs would probably be the best at it since they'd be less effected by recoil, would not stiffen up even if they sat in the same position for days, would not have to control their breathing for accurate shots etc

[Tags]

I actually wrote something up for a Heros Unlimited game an old GM ran, the whole thing included three variations on snipers each with unique abilities. A Psi-sniper with abilities to remain in one position for extended periods of time, a Mage Sniper, and a mundane sniper, though even this had abilities to set him apart.

In my experience it worked well in our game.

It just seems... Well... lacking to leave something as fundamental as a sniper out the game, only differentiating them with a limited selection of skills.

[dragonfett]

Well, there is the material in the Rifter (can't remember which one off hand) that goes in depth into sniping. But there are, as far as I can tell, two different types of snipers. There is the classic military sniper who lays motionless for days and works with a spotter for long range shots, then there is the police sniper that works with S.W.A.T. teams and generally (from what I have seen) doesn't need to stay still for days (hours sure), and doesn't shoot at extreme ranges.

[Tags]

Pretty up to date on my Rifters, may have to dig through them and take a look.

Honestly I never gave the differences between military and police snipers much thought, guess it never really came up, but you make some good points.

Be that as it may, Rifts lacks any kind of dedicated sniper, and I have to wonder why.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This has bugged me for a while, but why does Rifts and Chaos Earth, I guess, lack a sniper OCC? Just about everything else has been done. Yea there is a "sniper" skill and some classes can "snipe". But let's face it, sniping requires an advanced level of training, and there are so many more possibilities with a sniper OCC.

There is the TAG in one of the Rifters. CS Target Acquisition Group. That show a bit of military Snipers.

But there's two easy answers to this for the RPG.

1) in a MDC setting with stats as they are, "One shot One kill" against an MD Armored opponent is very very hard to ensure. Most rifles do not have the consistent output at minimum to breach a MD helmet and kill a person with one shot. I.E. their dice, when rolled, don't vaporize MD heads with one shot. Surely not the bodies.

There are a few, rifles out of the 100s, that 'might' do so against standard armor, but they're few, far between and exotic, and not very viable for 'most' people.

Thus... Mechanics frowns on it, as the dice make it hard to accomplish. If your gun can only do 3-18 damage per son (3d6, a respectable rifle) And the average MD helmet has 35 MD or more... You're going to need two minimum shots to take out a head but more likely 3 to 4.

The only way around this is to wait till your enemy takes off the helmet and then shoot um in the head with a MD round. Assuming he's wearing a helmet and not just MD himself. (Why even use SDC if it's an option? Just use a MD gun to ensure it works). The problem here is that many players, just 'live' in their armor. They assume (Quite wrongly) that they can wear the armor all the time, with out penalty so are never 'out' of their armor for it to be an option. As most players assume this, a great number of GM's seem to assume it as well. So any bad guy you meet, is going to be in MD armor when you meet him The nature of "prowl" rolls and low starting percentage of prowl, means that in SHORT ORDER you or someone else is going to fail a prowl roll. And just waiting around for the bad guy to pop the top of his MD can, isn't viable by the dice either. Unless your GM is very generous or more realistic. (( I.E. Armor is uncomfortable and you're only going to wear it when you have to and you will have to take it off and wash, clean, move around with out it or you're going to get sick and it'll tear you up PDQ))

2) More of a RP Related note, but if you deputize Snipers into the game, then the enemy can do the same. Would do the same and the game changes enormously. If the first time you take off your MD helmet your GM rolls a D20 and your character who took you an hour to build and you might have played for hours, days weeks, suddenly has no head... it's not going to be pretty. When the rest of the group goes "What happened???" and the GM goes "You don't know. He took off his helmet and suddenly his head dissapeared in a red mist" and your group goes "Where'd the shot come from?" (Assuming... the head was shot. Not a CRAZY Assumption) and the GM goes "You don't know" and your group goes "Why?" and the GM goes "You didn't hear a shot" and the group goes "Well didn't we see it?" and the GM goes "No. Light moves faster than your eye can track. This isn't Star wars where blaster bolts are slower than paint balls. It was a laser. you didn't track it" and the group goes "Well it's a laser! I hone in on the Pew pew pew" and the GM shakes his head and goes 'This is rifts. Lasers don't make sound, unless you PURPOSEFULLY have the sound generator turned on. The only sound would be the click of the trigger. Not something you could hear from 2000 yards away"

Then the player gets pissed, because his char's dead and there's not really anything he could do about it. So the rest of the group keeps their armor on, but the GM points out they have to eat and poop some time...... the next guy decides to keep his helmet on when he goes to pee, but... that part of his body is lazed off..... or the next time someone opens their helmet to sneak in a candy bar... a laser sneaks in through the crack too... etc.

When you start sniping the bad guys they start sniping you. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Most players are HAPPY to snipe mooks/goons/ttash mobs all day long.

You vaporize one or two of their heads via bad guy snipers, and the game is A LOT less fun.

[dragonfett]

Pretty up to date on my Rifters, may have to dig through them and take a look.

Honestly I never gave the differences between military and police snipers much thought, guess it never really came up, but you make some good points.

Be that as it may, Rifts lacks any kind of dedicated sniper, and I have to wonder why.

The way that I see it, the Sniper skill in the RMB/RUE is the equivalent of the Police Sniper/Marksmen, where as the CS TAG from the Rifter is more akin to Military Snipers.

[Tags]

I suppose but limiting the sniper to a few skills feels lazy.

[flatline]

If you want snipers in your game (and who doesn't?), you'll have to house rule a bunch of stuff. Specifically, you'll have to deal with the current imbalance between armor capacity and weapon damage.

Here are some suggestions:

1. eliminate the GI Joe rule. Actually, do this anyways.
2. for aimed called shots, if the attack result is > 19, the weapon does max damage (i.e. instead of rolling 3d6 or 1d6x10, just assume 18 or 60, respectively).
3. allow sniping with pulse weapons using pulses. Laser pulses are milliseconds apart and there's no recoil, so it's stupid to not allow aimed shots with pulse settings in the first place.

With these 3 changes, 1-hit kills are totally possible without any further changes to the rules. Even more so if you treat head shots as critical hits (or whatever).

[Killer Cyborg]

One-show kills are possible anyway. You just have to pick the right target.

But if I wanted snipers to be more deadly, I'd count the Sniper strike bones as a Natural strike bonus, and I'd do the same with certain sniper rifles.

[ShadowLogan]

As flatline suggested, you're going to need to house rule things to make it work mechanically. I'd add that:
- the first shot or two should also constitute a surprise attack, which based on critical strike from behind (in HTH skills), should do more damage since it would also be "surprise attack".
-declare certain sections/areas to be more "vulnerable" to attack, like joints or other areas that are less likely to take hits (armor would not be evenly distributed), but to exploit require called aimed shot (so not practical in regular combat) and likely at penatly

[Zer0 Kay]

This has bugged me for a while, but why does Rifts and Chaos Earth, I guess, lack a sniper OCC? Just about everything else has been done. Yea there is a "sniper" skill and some classes can "snipe". But let's face it, sniping requires an advanced level of training, and there are so many more possibilities with a sniper OCC.

What skills? Breathing techniques? Gauging bullet fall at target distance? How far to lead the target? Targets rate of travel? Coping with discomfort in uncomfortable climates? All of those are taken care of by the equipment. Only stealth is an issue.

[Zer0 Kay]

One-show kills are possible anyway. You just have to pick the right target.

But if I wanted snipers to be more deadly, I'd count the Sniper strike bones as a Natural strike bonus, and I'd do the same with certain sniper rifles.

Give snipers deathstrike with a bullet, there supposed to know where to hit just as well as a hth person does so why cant you do deathstrike with a gun.

Sniper allows use of all hand to hand strike abilities and bonuses of selected hth skill.

[Alrik Vas]

Pretty much any or even all of the suggestions given work pretty good.

I remember hearing about an old sniper rule from PF that let you critical an aimed shot on a modified 20+.

[Mack]

I'd make a Sniper OCC ability (or possibly a difficult to learn skill for Men at Arms) that consumes 4 or 5 actions but automatically inflicts triple damage. Essentially it would represent the character picking out the target's weak spot and hitting it.

The high action cost is to account for the uninterrupted concentration needed, and to prevent the shooter from spamming it. And triple damage should be enough to blast through most helmets with a decent rifle.

[Blue_Lion]

As flatline suggested, you're going to need to house rule things to make it work mechanically. I'd add that:
- the first shot or two should also constitute a surprise attack, which based on critical strike from behind (in HTH skills), should do more damage since it would also be "surprise attack".
-declare certain sections/areas to be more "vulnerable" to attack, like joints or other areas that are less likely to take hits (armor would not be evenly distributed), but to exploit require called aimed shot (so not practical in regular combat) and likely at penatly

Snipers are about waiting for the right time to strike a high value target. No house rules are not needed a good sniper would stalk his prey and wait for his time to strike. Such as when his target is eating or drinking. (Snipers are about finding a way to take out a target and get away not blowing through armor.) Snipers do not kill tanks they kill the crew when exposed and PA and MD armor is a walking tank.
The key to a good sniper is wait for the right time to strike the target and get away without being found.

[Tor]

Any OCC that gets a bonus to strike or called shot on gun attacks would qualify as being a sniper OCC, as they go above and beyond what you can acquire via sharpshooting / sniper / HtH Assassin which are available to a wider variety of classes.

Note that disarm-based snipers also exist, but would be more of the non-lethal sort of sniper.

Classes that fall under this include
*Controller (Federation of Magic page 75)
*Headhunter Assassin (Brutal Killer) Canada page 115
*Headhunter Techno-Warrior (Canada page 110) disarm-only
*Man-Hunter OCC (Merc Adventures page 29) disarm-only
*Reaver Assassin (Warlords of Russia page 82)

There are some I did not include due to a lack of specificity, like they include a disarm bonus but one which does not explicitly refer to either guns or called shots (guns by default) although it is possible that generic non-specified strike/disarm bonuses could apply to guns, I think a lot of people assume they do not. If so, that would add more to the list.

[ShadowLogan]

Snipers are about waiting for the right time to strike a high value target. No house rules are not needed a good sniper would stalk his prey and wait for his time to strike. Such as when his target is eating or drinking. (Snipers are about finding a way to take out a target and get away not blowing through armor.) Snipers do not kill tanks they kill the crew when exposed and PA and MD armor is a walking tank.
The key to a good sniper is wait for the right time to strike the target and get away without being found.

I do not dispute that Snipers can be used in this manner, but they can also be used in other ways. So the rules should allow them to be effective in all situations they could be expected to find themselves in.

The reality of the game mechanics however will require some fixes to really work with all aspects of a Sniper's role. How does real world sniper approach work when the target is MDC (FCB, natural MDC critter, etc)? You can't wait for them to take off their part-of/all-of their armor off to become more vulnerable since they are as tough (if not tougher) than EBA when they do take their armor off? So it would make sense that you would target more vulnerable areas. The surprise attack aspect I mention is to make it that much more of an effective attack.

[Killer Cyborg]

Snipers are about waiting for the right time to strike a high value target. No house rules are not needed a good sniper would stalk his prey and wait for his time to strike. Such as when his target is eating or drinking. (Snipers are about finding a way to take out a target and get away not blowing through armor.) Snipers do not kill tanks they kill the crew when exposed and PA and MD armor is a walking tank.
The key to a good sniper is wait for the right time to strike the target and get away without being found.

I do not dispute that Snipers can be used in this manner, but they can also be used in other ways.

However the reality of the game mechanics will require some fixes to really work with all aspects of a Sniper's role.
How does real world sniper approach work when the target is MDC (FCB, natural MDC critter, etc)? You can't wait for them to take off their part-of/all-of their armor off to become more vulnerable since they are as tough (if not tougher) than EBA?

The reality of a Sniper's role is that they are not intended as the right soldier for every job. If they were, then every military would consist of nothing but snipers.

What would a real-world sniper do if he faced a tank where the crew never came out, that had no vulnerabilities that he could exploit?
He'd call in an air strike, or otherwise get somebody else to do that job.

Same deal in Rifts. The apocalypse didn't change the role of snipers into universal death-machines that can defeat any and every opponent. Sometimes you just gotta look at your laser rifle, look at the Adult Dragon in your scope, and realize that you're in over your head.

[Alrik Vas]

That's right for the most part, CK. In 98% of situations, you need a bigger gun, a weaker target or both.

For instance, the designated marksmen in a unit might spot the incoming tank well off range. There unit hides, he the heavy and a rifle move to the flank. The marksman lines up a shot on the mounted gunner. Pop, he dies or takes cover inside. The weapons on the tank turn and open fire. The unit stays down.

The heavy pops up with guys rocket launcher, has time to aim and call his shot with an armor piercing mini-missile. Boom, surprise crit, AP triggers, dead hover jet or tread.

Unit pops smoke and repositions. Heavy hides and reloads. Tank is much less mobile. They can leave it disabled or push their luck and try to take out the turret.

Regardless, the "sniper" has a job there, and it isn't surgically kill, it's scare the crap out, and distract the tank crew. Normal riflemen probably wouldn't make the headshot at 300+ meters, which is what you want to keep the tank using direct fire so your cover actually means something.

I know that's a bunch of blah, but everyone has a job, it isn't always to be the 1 hit kill hero.

[Pepsi Jedi]

One-show kills are possible anyway. You just have to pick the right target.

But if I wanted snipers to be more deadly, I'd count the Sniper strike bones as a Natural strike bonus, and I'd do the same with certain sniper rifles.

yes if you shoot a sdc Dog with a MD rifle you can get a one shot kill.

Most humans in MD armor with most rifles you're not getting one. especially with the GI Joe rule being canon.
Sadly when you're trying to snipe something, you don't often get to 'choose' the right target. You're trying to kill a specific person, or whom ever is there that are attacking. Strike bonus won't help when most of the rifles can't get through a MD Helmet with one shot.

[Prince Artemis]

The closest class to a sniper in rifts I've seen would be the paratrooper in the mercenary adventures book.

Incidentally, a true sniper in rifts needs more than just the sniper skill. For a true sniper they would need, at minimum:
Sniper, Optics Systems, WP Energy Rifle, WP Rifle, land navigation, astronomy and basic math.

Sniper is obvious. Optics systems for the advanced scopes needed to do the job. The WP's are obvious, though including Heavy would be option since there are sniper rail guns. Land navigation would be needed for understanding the lay of the land and how the land between you and the target may effect your shots. Astronomy since that's the skill that also covers weather, which is needed understanding for any long range shot. Basic math is obvious though it could easily be argued advanced math would be needed as well.

Optional skills would be wilderness survival, since as mentioned snipers are required to find a sniper spot and wait. Mechanical engineer/armor for determining the weak points in the targets armor to maximize damage (anti-tank snipers were armed with anti-tank rifles that were mean to completely incapacitate a tank in a few shots, while not necessarily killing the crew), with other mechanical skills being useful as well. In the high tech world, you'd also needed radio basic and possibly even laser communications, since you'd want to make sure the orders were coming from a secure channel. Paramedic at least for determining the kill zones of your target. Etc.

Really, a sniper class in and of itself may be a waste just considering the setting, but there are certainly ways to craft a character into a sniper version of a set class. It's what OCC skills are for after all.

[eliakon]

There are a number of specialist skills (and weapons, and ammunitions and other goodies) out there that can allow you to produce a very, very effective, very, very deadly sniper. If your willing to be very specialized in your skill set, and if your willing to accept that a sniper is not going to be much use in most combat situations. Snipers are incredibly dangerous against foes like Gargoyles or Broadkil who have low enough MDC that a head shot with a high power weapon has a good chance of killing them and do not usually wear armor (so no GI Joe rule to worry about). But it requires being a very hyper specialized character who is useful in only a handful of highly specific missions. The sniper is really good in their specialized role (shooting high value targets from surprise, at a time and place of the snipers choosing). They are not so good in general roles (like say making one shot kills against enemy infantry in a battlefield). A lot of FPS games aside being a sniper does not mean you jut fort up and pick of every enemy that you see with super well placed one shot hits.

[Tor]

Strike bonus won't help when most of the rifles can't get through a MD Helmet with one shot.

Killing the enemy in one shot isn't always necessary. By taking advantage of a sniper rifle's range, you may be able to get more than one head shot off (or even a body shot) before your target is able to take cover or his underlings are able to get in range to attack you. A higher strike bonus will make sure that more of your shots hit, fewer misses means less time to take the required number of shots to disable your target.

That and, with strike bonuses for shooting outside your weapon's range, higher strike bonuses also allow you to attack from further away, enhancing your defensive situation (strike penalties to hit you) and reducing chances of being detected. Even if you can reliably make hits, strike bonuses effectively allow you to build on your weapon's range.

The closest class to a sniper in rifts I've seen would be the paratrooper in the mercenary adventures book.

I was so disappointed that their + to strike was in hand to hand that I utterly failed to notice their 3rd ability. They seem a high-ranked candidate compared to the others I mentioned.

A lot of FPS games aside being a sniper does not mean you jut fort up and pick of every enemy that you see with super well placed one shot hits.

Yeah, in the Tribes 1/2 games the laser rifle, even when fully charged, and hitting the head (which I think enhanced the damage) was not enough to take out even a light armor at full health. You had to go after weakened opponents, or else hide until your energy pack recharged to make a second shot, at which point if you were spotted, the guy was after you. It was a good combo with the Shrike Jet or Gravcycle since you could put distance between you and your targets again.

[Shorty Lickens]

I really dont think we need a whole new OCC for every stupid little specialty. I much prefer the idea of broad OCC's with packages that determine your starting skills.

A Headhunter could BE a sniper. He could also be a lot of other things. Bounty Hunter, army mercenary, vehicle pilot, demolitions, explorer (trailblazer), courier, body guard, loads of things.

I also dont like the Mercenaries book OCC's for that reason. Too many of them are basically the same thing, just a different skill package. Meaningless.

And some of the Three Galaxies OCC's are the same way.

[Tor]

Sniping isn't a stupid or a little specialty, it's just something a lot of classes are able to do with varying degrees of exceptionalism.

Kind of concur about Mercs though. What sets OCCs apart these days is their unique class bonuses, and they are what multi-class lovers salivate over, and Mercs had too few.

[Blue_Lion]

The closest class to a sniper in rifts I've seen would be the paratrooper in the mercenary adventures book.

Incidentally, a true sniper in rifts needs more than just the sniper skill. For a true sniper they would need, at minimum:
Sniper, Optics Systems, WP Energy Rifle, WP Rifle, land navigation, astronomy and basic math.

Sniper is obvious. Optics systems for the advanced scopes needed to do the job. The WP's are obvious, though including Heavy would be option since there are sniper rail guns. Land navigation would be needed for understanding the lay of the land and how the land between you and the target may effect your shots. Astronomy since that's the skill that also covers weather, which is needed understanding for any long range shot. Basic math is obvious though it could easily be argued advanced math would be needed as well.

Optional skills would be wilderness survival, since as mentioned snipers are required to find a sniper spot and wait. Mechanical engineer/armor for determining the weak points in the targets armor to maximize damage (anti-tank snipers were armed with anti-tank rifles that were mean to completely incapacitate a tank in a few shots, while not necessarily killing the crew), with other mechanical skills being useful as well. In the high tech world, you'd also needed radio basic and possibly even laser communications, since you'd want to make sure the orders were coming from a secure channel. Paramedic at least for determining the kill zones of your target. Etc.

Really, a sniper class in and of itself may be a waste just considering the setting, but there are certainly ways to craft a character into a sniper version of a set class. It's what OCC skills are for after all.

You missed a few basic skills they would need.
prowel-stelth
Detect ambush and or detect concealment-counter sniper operations.
camouflage-Setting up hiding spots.
Forward observer for the stuff he cant take out without help.

Pepsi Jedi- sure most peoples md body armor is can stop a sniper shot but remember not every one is button up in full eba 24-7. Some suits have no cover in places-this is often the case in mages with ley line walker armor. They need to expose part of themselves to do things like eat, use the rest room, and lets not forget human nature making them targets. Many people despite the protection of helmets will take off helmets or remove plates from there vests, this is a issue that NCOs in our army have to address to make sure that troops a band of bandits may very well not travel with there helmets on. In addition most snipers trying to stop movement do not need to kill the target in one shot. Attacking a group from hiding often makes them either find cover or try to find/attack you. This times them up for your heavy units to come in and mop up or delay help to another unit. Some nations snipers shoot to wound some one out in the open so they can wound the people that go in to help. (The only time a sniper really needs a 1 sot kill is to take out a VIP and typically that is the only attack he makes when he does and they are likely to stalk the target for the right chance.)

Snipers are not mearly assasins but a tactical as

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pepsi Jedi- sure most peoples md body armor is can stop a sniper shot but remember not every one is button up in full eba 24-7.

I know. I actually point that out myself. But you can bet when you need to blow off someone's head, they're going to be trying to blow off your head and put their armor on. You might get one shot before everyone scrambles for their helmet and armor, but still. What are you going to do then? And remember my other point. you start waiting till they're out of their armor (a viable tactic in the real world) and they're going to do the same to you. You blow off a head and some how escape and get back (Harderr to do when there's power armor and flying vehicles to help find you.) you get back to camp, take off your helmet to give your report and suddenly your head is gone because.... what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

YES it would happen in the real world.

In a game. "I take off my helmet to ea..... what do you mean roll up a new character?? This one took me three hours to create and we've played it for 3 weeks! What? A sniper blew off my head?? Don't I get a savings roll? It did 500SDC in one shot?? What?? That's not fair!! Well sure I did it to three bad guys but... they're just bad guys! You mean they got tired of me popping their heads and sent someone to pop my char's head?? THAT'S CRAP MAN!!!"

Noone likes it when suddenly their char can die at any moment with ZERO they can do about it.

Some suits have no cover in places-this is often the case in mages with ley line walker armor. They need to expose part of themselves to do things like eat, use the rest room, and lets not forget human nature making them targets.

Again. I've pointed this out in my previous post. But many players don't see it that way. If you look back over the history of the boards there's many pages devoted to a LARGE number of people seeming to think that MDC armor is the lightest of feathers and you can wear it 24/7 with no penalty what so ever, and have their characters do so, with no penalty. The assumption being 'Sure we take off our armor, but that's in down time between games. During the RP session our armor is on." Why? "So someone doesn't just blow off our heads at any given time" lol

It's sort of a gentelman's agreement with the GM. "If my char doesn't live in his armor 24/7, you don't take advantage and just vaporize my head at any random moment in the game" because... that makes people angry.

Many people despite the protection of helmets will take off helmets or remove plates from there vests, this is a issue that NCOs in our army have to address to make sure that troops a band of bandits may very well not travel with there helmets on.

I know.. but in the game where the vast majority of GM's don't enforce any penalties for long term time in armor. It's safer to keep your char's helmet on. That way your head doesn't go away quite so easily. it's not like most people care if their char is a bit uncomfortable. They just go "Well sure he's uncomfortable but it beats having no head, so MY char keeps his helmet on"

In addition most snipers trying to stop movement do not need to kill the target in one shot.

harrying an enemy force is but one of many jobs a sniper can do. They're highly trained marksmen, who's primary function is to kill. They can be used in other applications but the extra time, training and money has been spent to make a sniper someone to make the shot that indeed kills with one pull of the trigger. Other wise it's a waste of time and money to make a sniper.

Yes anti material is another function of a sniper, but in Rifts that falls under the same problem that the 'One shot, one kill' thing does. one pull of the trigger is seldom gong to 'break' anything MDC. It takes 10..20.. 50 shots to do that. And if you're shooting one thing 20 times to try and stop it. You're not a sniper. That's not their 'gig'.

The -mechanics- of the system. SDC/MDC, and MD damage with dice, invalidate the sniper's benifits.

Attacking a group from hiding often makes them either find cover or try to find/attack you. This times them up for your heavy units to come in and mop up or delay help to another unit.

And a kid with a cheep knock off black market laser pistol can do the same thing.... that doesn't make him a sniper.

Some nations snipers shoot to wound some one out in the open so they can wound the people that go in to help. (The only time a sniper really needs a 1 sot kill is to take out a VIP and typically that is the only attack he makes when he does and they are likely to stalk the target for the right chance.)

yes Liono We've seen movies where that happens. We've read the stories. Wounding someone to draw out others is great, if they can't retaliate and take out the sniper. but those others coming out to try and help the wounded are killed. Snipers don't go around knee capping people for giggles.

And as much as it happens in the movies, as it makes for great drama. IRL, a sniper taking more than one shot from the same position is quickly found and receives heavy counter fire or an airstrike.

Snipers are not mearly assasins but a tactical as

Not merely. No. They've more usages and training that just that. That just happens to be what they excell at. Snipers are highly trained marksmen who just so happen to be mathematicians, and are able to do what they do in high stress environments.

Movies have made a mythos up around them. They are force multipliers. One sniper can often cause more fear and break the will of many number of ground troops. It's the terror of that one shot kill from nowhere that makes them effective.

That one shot kill, which is hard to pull off in Rifts, due to the -mechanics- of the game. The rules just don't allow for it to happen out side of circumstances, that while they DO occur... would mean that your own char could die at any second if the bad guys use your own tactics.

[Tor]

PCs don't get their heads popped if they stay inside their robots Or basically general stuff like putting up walls.

[ShadowLogan]

The reality of a Sniper's role is that they are not intended as the right soldier for every job. If they were, then every military would consist of nothing but snipers.

What would a real-world sniper do if he faced a tank where the crew never came out, that had no vulnerabilities that he could exploit?
He'd call in an air strike, or otherwise get somebody else to do that job.

I get the reality of the Sniper's role and that they would use the most appropriate weapon for a given target including passing the buck. Since sniper weapons do exist with MDC capacity, they should logically be used for appropriate MDC rated targets. I don't think anyone expects a Sniper to be able to drop an Adult Dragon with one shot, but something like a Larmac or Horune are in a different weight class. Sniping in some respects amounts to Hunting, and Rifts Dinosaur Swamp does talk about hunting dinosaurs (which can be MDC) using ranged weapons, the critical strikes can be as potent as x3 in those cases, so there would be precedent.

Incidentally, a true sniper in rifts needs more than just the sniper skill. For a true sniper they would need, at minimum:
Sniper, Optics Systems, WP Energy Rifle, WP Rifle, land navigation, astronomy and basic math.

&

You missed a few basic skills they would need.
prowel-stelth
Detect ambush and or detect concealment-counter sniper operations.
camouflage-Setting up hiding spots.
Forward observer for the stuff he cant take out without help.

I would add WP: Sharpshooting. The bonus action it provides will be eaten up by the RUE rules for aimed/called shots, but it can potentially allow for a follow-up shot(s) that much quicker if it is needed (multiple targets). The special called & aimed shot aspects aren't as useful unless you have the PP to back it up though.

[flatline]

Who wants to play a game where your character's head CAN'T be instantly vaporized?

Almost all the GMS I played with used insta-kills. It's one of the reasons we all had multiple characters ready at the beginning of each session.

We also adopted rules that let us build characters in less time than canon.

[Killer Cyborg]

The reality of a Sniper's role is that they are not intended as the right soldier for every job. If they were, then every military would consist of nothing but snipers.

What would a real-world sniper do if he faced a tank where the crew never came out, that had no vulnerabilities that he could exploit?
He'd call in an air strike, or otherwise get somebody else to do that job.

I get the reality of the Sniper's role and that they would use the most appropriate weapon for a given target including passing the buck. Since sniper weapons do exist with MDC capacity, they should logically be used for appropriate MDC rated targets. I don't think anyone expects a Sniper to be able to drop an Adult Dragon with one shot, but something like a Larmac or Horune are in a different weight class. Sniping in some respects amounts to Hunting, and Rifts Dinosaur Swamp does talk about hunting dinosaurs (which can be MDC) using ranged weapons, the critical strikes can be as potent as x3 in those cases, so there would be precedent.

Dinosaur Swamps makes a lot more sense if you use the original dinosaur stats, where a T-Rex would only have 1d4x10 MDC.

I don't know how much MDC a Larmac or Horune has, but YES, a sniper with a MD weapon should be able to drop appropriate MDC targets. The problem seems to be that people disagree on which targets are appropriate, and how difficult it should be.
Personally, I tend to use a lot of randomly rolled critters out of the back of the RMB, where they have 2d4x10 MD. That's low enough that a good headshot can potentially drop the target with the right weapon.
But a lot of people seem to think that snipers should be reliable one-shot-killers against enemies in heavy EBA or other foes.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The reality of a Sniper's role is that they are not intended as the right soldier for every job. If they were, then every military would consist of nothing but snipers.

What would a real-world sniper do if he faced a tank where the crew never came out, that had no vulnerabilities that he could exploit?
He'd call in an air strike, or otherwise get somebody else to do that job.

I get the reality of the Sniper's role and that they would use the most appropriate weapon for a given target including passing the buck. Since sniper weapons do exist with MDC capacity, they should logically be used for appropriate MDC rated targets. I don't think anyone expects a Sniper to be able to drop an Adult Dragon with one shot, but something like a Larmac or Horune are in a different weight class. Sniping in some respects amounts to Hunting, and Rifts Dinosaur Swamp does talk about hunting dinosaurs (which can be MDC) using ranged weapons, the critical strikes can be as potent as x3 in those cases, so there would be precedent.

Dinosaur Swamps makes a lot more sense if you use the original dinosaur stats, where a T-Rex would only have 1d4x10 MDC.

I don't know how much MDC a Larmac or Horune has, but YES, a sniper with a MD weapon should be able to drop appropriate MDC targets. The problem seems to be that people disagree on which targets are appropriate, and how difficult it should be.
Personally, I tend to use a lot of randomly rolled critters out of the back of the RMB, where they have 2d4x10 MD. That's low enough that a good headshot can potentially drop the target with the right weapon.
But a lot of people seem to think that snipers should be reliable one-shot-killers against enemies in heavy EBA or other foes.

But again you're circling back around to saying 'Well if you hit an SDC target in his unarmored head sure you can kill it. or a very minor mdc being in the head, yuou might be able to kill it.

it's not like it's 'heavy eba ' only that stops the one shot one kill. Pretty much any armor that gives stats for the helmet, shy of light mdc armor, is going to have too much MDC for a one shot one kill. And the GI Joe rule would mean anyone in armor negates the ability.

Snipers aren't 'meant' to be used to kill fleas and rats. (Or their equivilent) Yes, they're 'supposed' to be able to drop someone, almost ANYONE with one shot. And the mechancis of the game prevent that in numerous ways.

[eliakon]

Why should a sniper (a specialized anti-personal weapon) be the perfect anti-tank weapon too?

[Svartalf]

Why should a sniper (a specialized anti-personal weapon) be the perfect anti-tank weapon too?

Because the ATL7?

[Killer Cyborg]

The reality of a Sniper's role is that they are not intended as the right soldier for every job. If they were, then every military would consist of nothing but snipers.

What would a real-world sniper do if he faced a tank where the crew never came out, that had no vulnerabilities that he could exploit?
He'd call in an air strike, or otherwise get somebody else to do that job.

I get the reality of the Sniper's role and that they would use the most appropriate weapon for a given target including passing the buck. Since sniper weapons do exist with MDC capacity, they should logically be used for appropriate MDC rated targets. I don't think anyone expects a Sniper to be able to drop an Adult Dragon with one shot, but something like a Larmac or Horune are in a different weight class. Sniping in some respects amounts to Hunting, and Rifts Dinosaur Swamp does talk about hunting dinosaurs (which can be MDC) using ranged weapons, the critical strikes can be as potent as x3 in those cases, so there would be precedent.

Dinosaur Swamps makes a lot more sense if you use the original dinosaur stats, where a T-Rex would only have 1d4x10 MDC.

I don't know how much MDC a Larmac or Horune has, but YES, a sniper with a MD weapon should be able to drop appropriate MDC targets. The problem seems to be that people disagree on which targets are appropriate, and how difficult it should be.
Personally, I tend to use a lot of randomly rolled critters out of the back of the RMB, where they have 2d4x10 MD. That's low enough that a good headshot can potentially drop the target with the right weapon.
But a lot of people seem to think that snipers should be reliable one-shot-killers against enemies in heavy EBA or other foes.

But again you're circling back around to saying 'Well if you hit an SDC target in his unarmored head sure you can kill it. or a very minor mdc being in the head, yuou might be able to kill it.

Not at all.
What I'm saying is that a lot of people seem to have the wrong definition of "minor."

it's not like it's 'heavy eba ' only that stops the one shot one kill. Pretty much any armor that gives stats for the helmet, shy of light mdc armor, is going to have too much MDC for a one shot one kill.

Gee. I guess you should shoot for something other than the helmet. And/or you should take more than one shot when necessary. And/or you should use a good gun.

Say you're up against somebody in Crusader armor. It's a good, reliable lighter EBA. It's got 35 MDC in the helmet, 55 MDC to the Main Body, 20 MDC for the arms, and 30 MDC for the legs.
If you've got an L-20 Pulse Rifle, that's going to inflict an average of 21 MD on a pulse. Which means that on an average shot, you're going to blow the arm right off somebody in Crusader Armor.
If you play without the GI-Joe Rule (as many people do), and you're shooting from the side so that extra 1 MD goes through the shoulder, then the person inside the armor is most likely dead instantly. At the least, they're now missing an arm and if the GM uses the blood loss rules, they're likely to die pretty soon.
Even with the GI-Joe Rule, all it means is that you'll need to take a second shot to kill them once their armor is cracked open.

(Now, somebody is going to point out that the rules state that an Aimed or a Called Shot "can only be tried with a single sniper-style shot, not a burst or when shooting wild," as per the rules. And I'll point out that also as per the rules, energy pulses are considered "a single, heavy blast" as per RUE 361, and that pulses are listed as suffering no penalties to strike "except on an Aimed or Called Shot, in which case any strike bonus is reduced by half."
Pulses are apparently considered to be single-shots under RUE, therefore eligible for sniping.)

And the GI Joe rule would mean anyone in armor negates the ability.

Nah. The GI-Joe rule has a limit to it, albeit a vague, undefined limit.
If you do enough damage, then the GI-Joe rule doesn't protect you, and it's up to the GMs to determine how much damage is enough.
Let's say you want to one-shot that guy in Crusader, and you're dealing with the GI-Joe Rule.
You'll want to switch from the L-20 to something like the JA-12, which can fire a pulse for 1d6x10 MD for an average damage of 35 MD. That's 175% the damage capacity of the armor of the arm, and a few GMs will likely accept that as enough to get through and damage the target.
Otherwise, just hope you roll higher than average damage, and that the GM allows it to blow through.
The example in the book is somebody with 3 MDC taking an attack for 21 MD, and having it all absorbed. That's a lot of damage... depending on how the GM looks at it. If the GM sees it as "armor can absorb at least 7x the remaining MDC," then you'd have to do one hell of a lot of damage (140+ MD) to get through that 20 MDC arm. If the GM looks at it as "armor can absorb at least 18 points of MD past its current total," then a roll of 4 through 6 on that 1d6x10 MD could well blow through, taking off the arm and/or killing the person inside the armor.

Snipers aren't 'meant' to be used to kill fleas and rats. (Or their equivilent) Yes, they're 'supposed' to be able to drop someone, almost ANYONE with one shot. And the mechancis of the game prevent that in numerous ways.

No.
Snipers are supposed to "deliver discriminatory, highly accurate rifle fire against enemy targets that cannot be engaged successfully by the regular rifleman because of range, size, location, fleeting nature, or visibility."
The whole "one-shot kill" thing is nice when they can get it, but it's not their raison d'être.
And they're certainly not expected to do it against heavily armored opponents who are capable of shrugging off standard rifle fire, not as a rule.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The reality of a Sniper's role is that they are not intended as the right soldier for every job. If they were, then every military would consist of nothing but snipers.

What would a real-world sniper do if he faced a tank where the crew never came out, that had no vulnerabilities that he could exploit?
He'd call in an air strike, or otherwise get somebody else to do that job.

I get the reality of the Sniper's role and that they would use the most appropriate weapon for a given target including passing the buck. Since sniper weapons do exist with MDC capacity, they should logically be used for appropriate MDC rated targets. I don't think anyone expects a Sniper to be able to drop an Adult Dragon with one shot, but something like a Larmac or Horune are in a different weight class. Sniping in some respects amounts to Hunting, and Rifts Dinosaur Swamp does talk about hunting dinosaurs (which can be MDC) using ranged weapons, the critical strikes can be as potent as x3 in those cases, so there would be precedent.

Dinosaur Swamps makes a lot more sense if you use the original dinosaur stats, where a T-Rex would only have 1d4x10 MDC.

I don't know how much MDC a Larmac or Horune has, but YES, a sniper with a MD weapon should be able to drop appropriate MDC targets. The problem seems to be that people disagree on which targets are appropriate, and how difficult it should be.
Personally, I tend to use a lot of randomly rolled critters out of the back of the RMB, where they have 2d4x10 MD. That's low enough that a good headshot can potentially drop the target with the right weapon.
But a lot of people seem to think that snipers should be reliable one-shot-killers against enemies in heavy EBA or other foes.

But again you're circling back around to saying 'Well if you hit an SDC target in his unarmored head sure you can kill it. or a very minor mdc being in the head, yuou might be able to kill it.

Not at all.
What I'm saying is that a lot of people seem to have the wrong definition of "minor."

Or you have a wrong mental image of a sniper as someone that lays down heavy fire until he chews through an enemy to do damage.

it's not like it's 'heavy eba ' only that stops the one shot one kill. Pretty much any armor that gives stats for the helmet, shy of light mdc armor, is going to have too much MDC for a one shot one kill.

Gee. I guess you should shoot for something other than the helmet. And/or you should take more than one shot when necessary. And/or you should use a good gun.

Oh Gee. To kill you need to take off the head or the main body. Main body has more MDC than the head. And Gee, if you can't take out the head in one shot, you're not taking out the main body which will have more, and Gee if you need more than one shot to do it, you're not a sniper, you're a soldier with a rifle, and gee, as has been pointed out the mechancis of the game show that most guns are not remotely able to take out an armored head, consistantly with one shot. Their minimum damage per shot does not exceed the MDC of most EBA helmets.

If you need 5 head shots to kill someone your'e not a sniper. You're a grunt with a rifle.

Say you're up against somebody in Crusader armor. It's a good, reliable lighter EBA. It's got 35 MDC in the helmet, 55 MDC to the Main Body, 20 MDC for the arms, and 30 MDC for the legs.

So to start off your attempt to make a point, we use some of the lightest EBA in the game..... which 'Most' people are going to have better than, if by no other point, in that it's some of the lightest EBA in the game. So using the weakest armor to try and make your point, pretty much makes mine.

If you've got an L-20 Pulse Rifle, that's going to inflict an average of 21 MD on a pulse.

Then naturally, after you choose one of the weakest armors, you purposefully choose one of the stronger rifles with a damage rating of 6D6. And of course using the pulse function to acheive said high damage rating.

Which means that on an average shot, you're going to blow the arm right off somebody in Crusader Armor.

No. On an average pulse blast, consisting of three shots, you're going to blow the arm ARMOR off someone on crusader Armor

If you play without the GI-Joe Rule (as many people do),

House rules are great but don't work for talk about general rules. You can house rule anything to fit the way you want it to.

and you're shooting from the side so that extra 1 MD goes through the shoulder, then the person inside the armor is most likely dead instantly. At the least, they're now missing an arm and if the GM uses the blood loss rules, they're likely to die pretty soon.

So, your sniper has found one of the stronger rifles. And has set up in a spot, and his target is in one of the weakest armors, and you wait to shoot him from the side. and of course house rule this so it could work, and then carry over bleed through damage on top of it all, to try and make your point?

Sure a sniper could wait for the shot, but your contrived attempt to get there is pretty transparent.

Even with the GI-Joe Rule, all it means is that you'll need to take a second shot to kill them once their armor is cracked open.

Right, Because someone just having the armor blown off their arm. will stand there, in the same position, letting you line up another aimed shot to do so. LOL

Do your games actually WORK like this? Are they populated by brain dead morons?? They must be pretty easy. Someone blows the armor off my arm, I'm taking cover and rolling my unprotected side away from where ever the hell the shot came in from.

(Now, somebody is going to point out that the rules state that an Aimed or a Called Shot "can only be tried with a single sniper-style shot, not a burst or when shooting wild," as per the rules. And I'll point out that also as per the rules, energy pulses are considered "a single, heavy blast" as per RUE 361, and that pulses are listed as suffering no penalties to strike "except on an Aimed or Called Shot, in which case any strike bonus is reduced by half."
Pulses are apparently considered to be single-shots under RUE, therefore eligible for sniping.)

Again, your house rules are nice for your table, but don't work across the board out side the house games you run.

And the GI Joe rule would mean anyone in armor negates the ability.

Nah. The GI-Joe rule has a limit to it, albeit a vague, undefined limit.
If you do enough damage, then the GI-Joe rule doesn't protect you, and it's up to the GMs to determine how much damage is enough.
Let's say you want to one-shot that guy in Crusader, and you're dealing with the GI-Joe Rule.
You'll want to switch from the L-20 to something like the JA-12, which can fire a pulse for 1d6x10 MD for an average damage of 35 MD. That's 175% the damage capacity of the armor of the arm, and a few GMs will likely accept that as enough to get through and damage the target.

Which is good for speculation but technically is still house ruling. Even if you blow off an arm you're not auto killing the char and unless he's the only one present, you've just wasted a sniper shot and revealed you're there, where in you're going to start taking return fire or people looking to find you and kill you.

Otherwise, just hope you roll higher than average damage, and that the GM allows it to blow through.
The example in the book is somebody with 3 MDC taking an attack for 21 MD, and having it all absorbed. That's a lot of damage... depending on how the GM looks at it. If the GM sees it as "armor can absorb at least 7x the remaining MDC," then you'd have to do one hell of a lot of damage (140+ MD) to get through that 20 MDC arm. If the GM looks at it as "armor can absorb at least 18 points of MD past its current total," then a roll of 4 through 6 on that 1d6x10 MD could well blow through, taking off the arm and/or killing the person inside the armor.

And if the GM decides that you can fly via rainbows shooting out of your butt you can fly, but it's not per RAW and just speculation about house rules, which we don't all abide by.

Snipers aren't 'meant' to be used to kill fleas and rats. (Or their equivilent) Yes, they're 'supposed' to be able to drop someone, almost ANYONE with one shot. And the mechancis of the game prevent that in numerous ways.

No.

Yes.

lol see how easy that was?

Snipers are supposed to "deliver discriminatory, highly accurate rifle fire against enemy targets that cannot be engaged successfully by the regular rifleman because of range, size, location, fleeting nature, or visibility."
The whole "one-shot kill" thing is nice when they can get it, but it's not their raison d'être.
And they're certainly not expected to do it against heavily armored opponents who are capable of shrugging off standard rifle fire, not as a rule.

The point is, Cyborg, that via the mechanics of the palladium system, in MDC Envrionments, that infact, Snipers are not able to ply their trade in the traditional sense. I.E. they're no better than a grunt with a rifle, save for a what +2 to strike? The mechanics don't 'work' for snipers in rifts. If you have to shoot someone with an aimed shot, two or three times in the head to kill them, you're not sniping. you're just shooting at someone same as any other troop. After the first shot, they're not likely to just stand there as you seem to think to let you keep tryng. lol.

Yes, logic would dictate that "Should a target be "TOO" Armored, you wouldn't try the shot"

My point is, by the rules, all but totally unarmored SDC targets are going to fall into that category, thus negating the Sniper's usage in Rifts, because the rules don't support it.

[Tor]

Wouldn't a lot of the damage problem be fixed by sniping in pairs?

Also: don't some HtH skills give automatic critical hits from behind and/or surprise at higher levels?

If you've got an L-20 Pulse Rifle, that's going to inflict an average of 21 MD on a pulse. Which means that on an average shot, you're going to blow the arm right off somebody in Crusader Armor.

I thought you could only snipe with single-shot rifles, not bursts/pulses.

Sides, the L-20's range doesn't impress me. May as well use a classic CS plasma rifle, same range and damage but single-shot.

[eliakon]

I am rather confused about why people are complaining that the bonus from the Sniper Skill is not sufficient to make a specialist sniper into a one-shot-kills-everything-dead killing machine?
If you really have to make a dedicated sniper. MAKE A DEDICATED SNIPER. Don't complain that one skill doesn't make you good enough. Taking Boxing will not make you Mike Tyson either.
Sniper + Weapon Proficiency + Stalking + Sharpshooter + a really good solid sniper rifle If your GM allows you to use the other game books grab the Vital Strikes skill from Splicers, and or the Critical Strike skill from the Rifter (If the Rifter is on the table there are a lot of other skills to look at as well...) Take a look at using the rule from Mysteries of Magic to buy up skill level with extra slots.
Take that cyber eye for another +1 to strike. Magic can be helpful to grab a few spells (Surmount Impossible Odds, QuickStrike, Mystic Marksmanship), take a look at some specialist weapons (like the Rifles in Dinosaur Swamp, or the Sonic and Microwave weapons from Aliens Unlimited), specialist ammo (explosive bullets for instance). Now add in the support function (stealth, concealment skills/spells/gear) etc.
It certainly IS possible to make a very deadly sniper in the game. It is just that you wont get there by taking a regular infantry person, with regular infantry gear and regular infantry skills and slapping the sniper skill on them.
And as pointed out by many. A sniper is not supposed to be going around one-shotting tanks. Its not that the sniper can't do its role....its that some people have an unrealistic assumption on what that role is.

[Killer Cyborg]

Pepsi, reread my post and try again.

[say652]

Let's make a "real" sniper.

Rogue scholar.
3 slots sharpshooter energy rifle.
1 slot sniper.
1 slot prowl.
1 slot camoflauge.
1 slot Navigation.
1 slot Wilderness Survival.

Then spend as many skill slots left on Physical Prowess building physical skills.

[Tags]

What is this hot mess... And it all started so innocently.

Just going to stick with my homegrown snipers.

[Alrik Vas]

Say, scholars don't get sharpshooter. Unless it changed in RUE, only fighter types and gunslinger types can get it.

[say652]

My mistake.
Cb1 says no vagabond, Dragon, Mindmelter.

The bonuses are lower than the Gunslinger and unlike the Gunfighter only apply to that specific type of rifle.

So Energy Rifle, I got mad skills(sharpshooter applies) using an M-16 or My favorite an old school lever action the bonuses do not apply.

[Incriptus]

Sharing my story, I played a sniper for a while.
I had one small bending of the rules.
In particular my Combat Techno-Wizard (Rifter #2 page 70) got permission to have Sharp Shooting.

I guess most importantly, I saw my character as a "Sharp Shooter" rather than a "One Shot, One Kill" Sniper.
His usual tactic was to claim overwatch and shoot missiles out of the sky for defense. I was also quite proud of the time he severed a samas's ammo belt to his rail gun. Should the opportunity arise to end the life of some fool without a helmet he would have taken it. Despite a sharpshooter being a specialist in a combat field, by focusing on his stealth (magic does stealth well) he had a secondary job, and it's not as if he can't pull out a standard laser rifle and shoot as well as anyone else when stuck in enclosed spaces.

On the mechanical aspect (Using original RMB rules)
+1 to strike with TW weapons (from the OCC)
+2 to strike (Sniper)
+3 to strike (TW Sniper Rifle)
+2 to strike (Sharpshooting, 25 PP)
+3 to strike (Standard Aimed Shot)
for +11 to strike, so he was fairly good at pulling off some stunt shots.
4d6 damage, average of 14 points, clearly not fight ending but every point is welcome in a shoot out.

I was looking forward to the day when my character could get (the equivalent) of a Dinosaur Swamp superior rifle, perhaps upgrade my Body Armor + Jet Pack to a real boy's power armor ...

[Tor]

grab the Vital Strikes skill from Splicers

This book has a lot of interesting stuff, like "WP Armor" on page 203 (finally something for Shredder in TMNT or Liang Hsung from Mystic China to use!) or WP Reverse Stroke on page 205 (great for stacking with a Blunt/Staff or Forked/Polearm/Spear/Trident combo for 2 handers). I can't recall if these re statted out in any other games.

Also the MD-inflicting variant of Fencing on page 196 along with Outdoorsmanship and Physical Labor, and Aerobic Athletics (DISARM) on 195. I think one of two of these might have made it into Dead Reign or Robotech Shadow Chronicles.

Vital Strikes is an espionage skill (like sniper) on page 192, if anyone is lost looking for it under physical/WP. Definitely cool, I gotta remember this. Unfortunately, while it does widen the range needed for critical strikes (at least for lower-level guys, not much of an advantage later on for some HtHs which give equal or higher ranges) it still requires a 'natural' roll.

The best reflection of a sniper IMO is the Martial Art Technique from N&SS of One Life One Shot One Hit One Kill (or something like that, I may have mixed up the order). It gives an unlimited bonus to strike depending on how many melees you stay focused on aiming (lose everything if interrupted) and allows you to get a critical strike if you get a high enough MODIFIED number, so none of this 'luck of the roll' nonsense.

Take a look at using the rule from Mysteries of Magic to buy up skill level with extra slots.

assuming this means book 1 Heart of Magic as in retrospect people might confuse with the upcoming book 2 Dark Magicks.

Not sure which page this is on, does it let you buy levels in any skill category?

Rogue scholar.
1 slot sniper.
1 slot camoflauge.

Rifts Main Book these were possible to select.

It is no longer possible in RUE for Rogue Scholars to select these skills, they are not among the limited number of Espionage/Military skills now available to Rogue Scholars (in RMB they could 'any' either of them).

I was about to include Wilderness Survival because of their Espionage restrictions but then noticed it's also now a Wilderness skill.

If it makes you feel any better, Sniper/Camo is also not available to Body Fixers, City Rats, Cyber-Docs, Rogue Scientists or Vagabonds.

The bit about the City Rats is odd since it still includes the IQ/PP attribute requirements for the "Assassin" variant. In RMBp74 there is a note about this letting them start off with a bolt-action rifle AND an energy rifle, both of which give the impression of being a Sniper-style assassin (as opposed to the knife-in-the-alley kind).

These equipment notes were removed in RUE, leading one to wonder what exactly the attribute requirements mean at all. Even in RMB they could not select the Sniper skill, yet they served in a sniper-style role relying just upon the modern WP, I guess. Strangely enogh, this did mean that a Rogue Scholar could be a better sniper in RMB than an 'assassin' City Rat. =/

Operators can learn Camouflage but not Sniper. Wilderness Scouts can learn Sniper but not Camouflage. I find both of these kind of absurd. If anything I think scouts would be the more likely to know camouflage and the gear-jockies the more likely to practise sniping. Good realm for house ruling IMO.

Bursters/LLWs/Mystics/Shifters/WildStalkers can't learn either skill. Can learn Camo but not Sniper: the Fusionist (makes sense) and the Techno-Wizard (not so much) and the CSstalker (because domestication increases your camo skills? wut?). Mind Melters and Dog Boys can learn both skills.

Dragons can select Camouflage as a secondary skill, but Sniper is not available as one (RUEp300)

Combat Cyborgs and Juicers and Merc Soldiers (Hired Guns) and Robot Pilots and Coalition Grunts/Elite RPA/TechOfficers can all select Camo with a bonus, but not Sniper.

Crazies and Cyber-Knights and Techno-Warriors and CS Military Specialists can select both. They're, far as I know, the only OCCs in RUE aside from the mystifying Mind Melter where you can combine camouflaging with sniping.

Glitter Boys are unable to learn Sniper or Camouflage.

[Blue_Lion]

Pepsi, reread my post and try again.

I am confused how is 55MD the one of the lightest EBA in the game.(The lightest EBA in the game is plastic man at 35.) I could have sworn that 55 was mid range and the armor you are talking about has no prowl penalty I have taken it on lots of charters as light armor.(but then snipers typically go after heavily armored targets.)

Then the L-20 is one of the strongest weapons in the game. Since when.

Both are mid range of what is out there.

Pepsi seams to think the sniper should one shot things all the time but that is not the only thing snipers do. Kill 1 guy you take 1 guy out of the mission cripple 1 guy and leave him bleeding out you can take allot more out of the fight.

So lets say you shoot a guys leg off he is down unable to move and not likely to be still in the fight. Or you can shoot the SF dominate hand off and take him out of the fight. There are lots of ways to take some one out of a fight that does not leave them dead. And dead men can't be integrated.

[Blue_Lion]

grab the Vital Strikes skill from Splicers

This book has a lot of interesting stuff, like "WP Armor" on page 203 (finally something for Shredder in TMNT or Liang Hsung from Mystic China to use!) or WP Reverse Stroke on page 205 (great for stacking with a Blunt/Staff or Forked/Polearm/Spear/Trident combo for 2 handers). I can't recall if these re statted out in any other games.

Also the MD-inflicting variant of Fencing on page 196 along with Outdoorsmanship and Physical Labor, and Aerobic Athletics (DISARM) on 195. I think one of two of these might have made it into Dead Reign or Robotech Shadow Chronicles.

Vital Strikes is an espionage skill (like sniper) on page 192, if anyone is lost looking for it under physical/WP. Definitely cool, I gotta remember this. Unfortunately, while it does widen the range needed for critical strikes (at least for lower-level guys, not much of an advantage later on for some HtHs which give equal or higher ranges) it still requires a 'natural' roll.

The best reflection of a sniper IMO is the Martial Art Technique from N&SS of One Life One Shot One Hit One Kill (or something like that, I may have mixed up the order). It gives an unlimited bonus to strike depending on how many melees you stay focused on aiming (lose everything if interrupted) and allows you to get a critical strike if you get a high enough MODIFIED number, so none of this 'luck of the roll' nonsense.

Take a look at using the rule from Mysteries of Magic to buy up skill level with extra slots.

assuming this means book 1 Heart of Magic as in retrospect people might confuse with the upcoming book 2 Dark Magicks.

Not sure which page this is on, does it let you buy levels in any skill category?

Rogue scholar.
1 slot sniper.
1 slot camoflauge.

Rifts Main Book these were possible to select.

It is no longer possible in RUE for Rogue Scholars to select these skills, they are not among the limited number of Espionage/Military skills now available to Rogue Scholars (in RMB they could 'any' either of them).

I was about to include Wilderness Survival because of their Espionage restrictions but then noticed it's also now a Wilderness skill.

If it makes you feel any better, Sniper/Camo is also not available to Body Fixers, City Rats, Cyber-Docs, Rogue Scientists or Vagabonds.

The bit about the City Rats is odd since it still includes the IQ/PP attribute requirements for the "Assassin" variant. In RMBp74 there is a note about this letting them start off with a bolt-action rifle AND an energy rifle, both of which give the impression of being a Sniper-style assassin (as opposed to the knife-in-the-alley kind).

These equipment notes were removed in RUE, leading one to wonder what exactly the attribute requirements mean at all. Even in RMB they could not select the Sniper skill, yet they served in a sniper-style role relying just upon the modern WP, I guess. Strangely enogh, this did mean that a Rogue Scholar could be a better sniper in RMB than an 'assassin' City Rat. =/

Operators can learn Camouflage but not Sniper. Wilderness Scouts can learn Sniper but not Camouflage. I find both of these kind of absurd. If anything I think scouts would be the more likely to know camouflage and the gear-jockies the more likely to practise sniping. Good realm for house ruling IMO.

Bursters/LLWs/Mystics/Shifters/WildStalkers can't learn either skill. Can learn Camo but not Sniper: the Fusionist (makes sense) and the Techno-Wizard (not so much) and the CSstalker (because domestication increases your camo skills? wut?). Mind Melters and Dog Boys can learn both skills.

Dragons can select Camouflage as a secondary skill, but Sniper is not available as one (RUEp300)

Combat Cyborgs and Juicers and Merc Soldiers (Hired Guns) and Robot Pilots and Coalition Grunts/Elite RPA/TechOfficers can all select Camo with a bonus, but not Sniper.

Crazies and Cyber-Knights and Techno-Warriors and CS Military Specialists can select both. They're, far as I know, the only OCCs in RUE aside from the mystifying Mind Melter where you can combine camouflaging with sniping.

Glitter Boys are unable to learn Sniper or Camouflage.

I would think we could point out it does seam to be possible to get schooling for skills. rough scholar can teach some and there is the rules for going to college to get skills in HU.

[Shorty Lickens]

When it comes to skill selection, I always pick the book that allows more flexibility. In the case of the Rogue classes thats almost always the RMB. In fact one of these days I'm gonna have to write up my own OCC book and not only compile the best version of everything, but also clarify any issues that have been solved in Rifters or here on the forums.

[Tor]

I would think we could point out it does seam to be possible to get schooling for skills. rough scholar can teach some and there is the rules for going to college to get skills in HU.

I figure Rogue Scholars can only teach skills that they know, and since they can't get Sniper in RUE, they'd have to travel to HU to be able to learn them

Even if you incorporate the HU2p48 rules, HU2p45 states that Espionage Skills are limited to Military Specialist and Trade School, so they are not among the things you could learn through that time-based college route unless you already had those education levels.