Whom can use the mirrorwalk ability?

[ghost2020]

It says the Hounds can (pg 157 main book), but their stats do not specifically state this, and i could have missed it.

Who else can use the mirrorwalk?

The pictures show Doppelgangers using it, but it's never stated that they can in their stats or their fluff info.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Only Nightbane and Reshapers have the Mirror Walk ability, per se. However, some magic spells can bring creatures through the Mirrorwall, and Nightlords can transport themselves and their minions via their "Breach the Mirrorwall" ability.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The offical Nightbane FAQ from Rifter 48 says that hounds, hunters, and houndmasters naturally have the mirrorwalk ability, same as the Nightbane ability, and don't need anyone to bring them through.

Dopplegangers do not have any natural ability to do so however, and must be granted the ability via a nightlord or some other magical item or means.

(Rifter 48, page 22/23, the section is marked Offical answers from Kevin Siembedia and the two current Authors of Nightbane Survival Guide)

[Tinker Dragoon]

That directly contradicts the main book, but whatever. It always seemed like Hounds et al. were originally intended to be able to mirror walk (as in the OP's example), but the ability was removed for some reason. Perhaps this restores things to the way they were always meant to be.

[Tor]

Removed, or accidentally omitted?

Am wondering if there's any refs prior to rifter 48, otherwise I give it as much stock as 'nightbane are humans' retcons.

Worth noting that Shadow Warlocks can also mirror walk.

[auyl]

For me it makes sense that hounds and their ilk can mirror-walk, makes them that much more dangerous. At the same time my house rule would be that it is more difficult for them to do so. Give Nightbane's some advantage in that field.

[Tor]

Why does giving them a new ability to make them more dangerous make more sense? Could easily just have Night Priests or evil Mirror Mages make portals.

[auyl]

True but that takes time, ppe and portals are very obvious. Mirror-walking, not so much.

[eliakon]

Removed, or accidentally omitted?

Since they say accidentally omitted, and there is evidence of this (the fact that they mention the ability to mirror walk in the first book, but don't stat it out). Then it would seem that either
1) they did accidentally make a mistake
or
2) there is deliberate conspiracy by the staff at Palladium to make people think things that are not true.

Since I generally do not assign to malice things that appear to be mistakes I am going to go with #1 as the more likely here.

Am wondering if there's any refs prior to rifter 48, otherwise I give it as much stock as 'nightbane are humans' retcons.

As the original poster noted it was mentioned in the first book on page 157. Which sort of implies that yes, it was originally there and the stats were accidentally not printed to represent the official design.

[auyl]

Removed, or accidentally omitted?

Since they say accidentally omitted, and there is evidence of this (the fact that they mention the ability to mirror walk in the first book, but don't stat it out). Then it would seem that either
1) they did accidentally make a mistake
or
2) there is deliberate conspiracy by the staff at Palladium to make people think things that are not true.

Since I generally do not assign to malice things that appear to be mistakes I am going to go with #1 as the more likely here.

Am wondering if there's any refs prior to rifter 48, otherwise I give it as much stock as 'nightbane are humans' retcons.

As the original poster noted it was mentioned in the first book on page 157. Which sort of implies that yes, it was originally there and the stats were accidentally not printed to represent the official design.

Have to agree with these points. Can't throw away a piece of actual cannon just because you don't like it. We all know PB has made editing mistakes and asking for evidence that fits your criteria isn't fair. Page 157 of the main book plainly says they can. The stats were plainly forgotten and over looked, which the office admitted. You may not like it, but there is more evidence in favour that hounds can mirror-walk vesus no evidence that they can't.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Have to agree with these points. Can't throw away a piece of actual cannon just because you don't like it. We all know PB has made editing mistakes and asking for evidence that fits your criteria isn't fair. Page 157 of the main book plainly says they can. The stats were plainly forgotten and over looked, which the office admitted. You may not like it, but there is more evidence in favour that hounds can mirror-walk vesus no evidence that they can't.

Well, let's look at the evidence in the book.

Nightbane RPG, p. 157:

The Nightlords and a few of their minions (especially the Hounds) can also cross over through mirrors.

Nightbane RPG, p. 175:

Before Dark Day, the Ba'al were imprisoned in the Nightlands. Only their minions or astral Avatars could visit the Earth, and the former only if they were summoned by evil magicians. The resulting effects of that day have allowed them to escape their ancient prison, and to send out their minions in great numbers.

The first quote implies that Hounds can cross over from the Nightlands at will; the latter that they must be transported by a Nightlord. Both are "canon."

It is easy to say that there was a mistake 20 years after the fact, but given the trends of the time, accidental omission and intentional nerfing are equally plausible. Regardless of what the original intent was, though, the Rifter ruling is official. GMs are free to use whichever version of the rules they wish.

[auyl]

I fail to see the point there. The game isn't taking place before Dark Day but after. Since it's after, both quotations are true.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Before Dark Day: minions are summoned by spells.

After Dark Day: minions are transported directly by the Nightlords.

Then again, maybe the Nightlords don't use their powers to send Hounds; maybe they only use it to send Doppelgangers and Ashmedai and the like. In that case, the Nightlords' ability to Breach the Mirrorwall would not be redundant.

[Shark_Force]

or maybe the nightlords after dark day just send their minions to go get their lazy behinds through the mirrorwall themselves.

there is nothing about sending troops that inherently suggests the nightlord personally opened up any sort of portal. it could just mean that the nightlord issued orders for their minions to go from point A to point B. the fact that point A and B are in different dimensions is beside the point. just as they might have sent a few hundred hounds to travel to another city in the darklands without needing to open any dimensional portals, relying on the troops inherent ability to walk (or fly, etc) where they need to go, they could have sent their troops to earth and expected the troops to get there using their own inherent abilities.

[auyl]

Before Dark Day: minions are summoned by spells.

After Dark Day: minions are transported directly by the Nightlords.

Then again, maybe the Nightlords don't use their powers to send Hounds; maybe they only use it to send Doppelgangers and Ashmedai and the like. In that case, the Nightlords' ability to Breach the Mirrorwall would not be redundant.

You're arguing for a retroactive viewpoint that within the setting presented in the main book doesn't exist. The fact of the matter is that the book takes place after Dark Day and Rifter 48 says they can use the mirror walk and it's an official ruling. This "Before Dark Day" point simply isn't valid within the scope of what the setting provides.

[eliakon]

So wait? Because we all know that prior to Dark Day the Night Lords and their baddies were trapped in the Nightlands that means that everything written about them is wrong because it does not tell us the stats for when they were trapped (which is not during the game) as well as the stats for the current game time when they are no longer free?
huh?
That is like saying that since they don't have the stats of Moloch as a human that they are contradictory??

[auyl]

So wait? Because we all know that prior to Dark Day the Night Lords and their baddies were trapped in the Nightlands that means that everything written about them is wrong because it does not tell us the stats for when they were trapped (which is not during the game) as well as the stats for the current game time when they are no longer free?
huh?
That is like saying that since they don't have the stats of Moloch as a human that they are contradictory??

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that the fact the couldn't mirrorwalk before Dark Day isn't a factor anymore since the game takes place after Dark Day. Arguing that they can't mirrorwalk because they couldn't do it before Dark Day isn't a valid point. The stats aren't wrong, but saying something that goes against what the company has published and corrected in official errata isn't fair to the game. The fact they couldn't mirrorwalk before Dark Day was more as an FYI point rather than one to base an argument that they can't mirrorwalk off of.