Clear rule on simultaneous attacks and auto dodge.

[Steve Fang]

A jucier jumps on a cs scout and the scout sees him coming and simultaneously attacks.

Does the juicer get to auto dodge?

[Tinker Dragoon]

No. Under normal circumstances, neither the attacker nor the defender can dodge, parry, or entangle during a simultaneous attack (and I would think other defensive maneuvers like disarm and back flip would be similarly proscribed). The sole exception is that a defender with Paired Weapons can perform a simultaneous attack with one weapon and parry with the other.

[Nekira Sudacne]

A jucier jumps on a cs scout and the scout sees him coming and simultaneously attacks.

Does the juicer get to auto dodge?

canonically, an automatic dodge is a dodge that does not take a melee attack. that is all. You cannot normally dodge a simultaneous attack, therefore, you cannot automatically dodge one either. automatic dodge doesn't let you dodge anything you can't normally dodge, it just lets you dodge things you CAN normally dodge, without losing an attack to do so. it does not allow you to apply a dodge to any situation a normal dodge would not apply to.

[Steve Fang]

Thank you. That's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure.

[Tor]

"dodge on all attacks" might be interpreted by some as over-riding simultaneous attacks, it's like "all" vs "neither". Kinda like SDF1 vs indestructible.

"neither opponent can parry, dodge or entangle" doesn't cover anything else, so you could still do things like defensive disarm, hold, joint lock, or automatic body flip if you got one.

Also worth pointing out to those who keep insisting that automatic dodge doesn't fall under the purvey of dodge: this would mean that automatic dodges still work against simultaneous attacks.

If they don't, since they are dodges, they still get dodge bonuses in some settings like Rifts, but not in HU which outlaws it.

[eliakon]

I get the impression that the intent of the rule is that no one can use any sort of defense against a simultaneous strike.....
But unfortunately that is not what is actually written so RAW its just the 3 defenses that are stopped.

[Tor]

Yay backflip evasion, finally a purpose.

[Nekira Sudacne]

"dodge on all attacks" might be interpreted by some as over-riding simultaneous attacks, it's like "all" vs "neither". Kinda like SDF1 vs indestructible.

"neither opponent can parry, dodge or entangle" doesn't cover anything else, so you could still do things like defensive disarm, hold, joint lock, or automatic body flip if you got one.

Also worth pointing out to those who keep insisting that automatic dodge doesn't fall under the purvey of dodge: this would mean that automatic dodges still work against simultaneous attacks.

If they don't, since they are dodges, they still get dodge bonuses in some settings like Rifts, but not in HU which outlaws it.

RUE outlaws it now, too

[Damian Magecraft]

"dodge on all attacks" might be interpreted by some as over-riding simultaneous attacks, it's like "all" vs "neither". Kinda like SDF1 vs indestructible.

"neither opponent can parry, dodge or entangle" doesn't cover anything else, so you could still do things like defensive disarm, hold, joint lock, or automatic body flip if you got one.

Also worth pointing out to those who keep insisting that automatic dodge doesn't fall under the purvey of dodge: this would mean that automatic dodges still work against simultaneous attacks.

If they don't, since they are dodges, they still get dodge bonuses in some settings like Rifts, but not in HU which outlaws it.

RUE outlaws it now, too

from what I can tell only PP bonuses are allowed to apply.

[Tor]

RUE outlaws it now, too

from what I can tell only PP bonuses are allowed to apply.

For crazies and juicers only, unless a recent printing has copied their limitations over to the glossary (like HU2) or others who get it unimpeded like Cyber-Knights and Commandos.

[Nekira Sudacne]

RUE outlaws it now, too

from what I can tell only PP bonuses are allowed to apply.

For crazies and juicers only, unless a recent printing has copied their limitations over to the glossary (like HU2) or others who get it unimpeded like Cyber-Knights and Commandos.

It's in the combat moves rules on page 344 for automatic dodge for automatic dodge itself for all characters.

[Tor]

Been over 344 before, the glossary only tells you to use PP and auto-dodge bonuses, not to exclude dodge bonuses.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Been over 344 before, the glossary only tells you to use PP and auto-dodge bonuses, not to exclude dodge bonuses.

Actually it does. "Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. Attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill, or enhancement will say "automatic dodge")."

Thus, any dodge bonus that does not say automatic dodge is excluded.

[say652]

Juicer can't AutoDodge but if paired weapons is possessed an autoparry is allowed.

[Tor]

Been over 344 before, the glossary only tells you to use PP and auto-dodge bonuses, not to exclude dodge bonuses.

Actually it does. "Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. Attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill, or enhancement will say "automatic dodge")."

Thus, any dodge bonus that does not say automatic dodge is excluded.

"come from P and S" is not "only come from P and S", to be exhaustive a list must say so

[Nekira Sudacne]

Been over 344 before, the glossary only tells you to use PP and auto-dodge bonuses, not to exclude dodge bonuses.

Actually it does. "Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. Attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill, or enhancement will say "automatic dodge")."

Thus, any dodge bonus that does not say automatic dodge is excluded.

"come from P and S" is not "only come from P and S", to be exhaustive a list must say so

Disagreed. There is no reason to say that unless it was to be exclusive. you are of course free to disagree, I don't mind you being wrong

[Tor]

There is a reason to give examples of things that pertain to a situation without implying a situation where those are the only things which pertain to that situation.

Like for example if I wrote "missiles and grenades can damage a SAMAS" it doesn't mean only those 2 things can damage them.

I believe I brought up an equivalent example of attacks per melee, us being told that this can come from HtH or Boxing but not mentioning stuff like being a Juicer or Cyber-Knight doesn't mean those attack bonuses suddenly can't apply just because they weren't included in the overview.

[eliakon]

The part where it says "and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill, or enhancement will say "automatic dodge")." Seems to me to be pretty clear. any bonus to auto dodge will say that it applies to automatic dodge. Anything that doesn't say this, doesn't apply.

[Tor]

The last 2 sentences don't reflect the text. We are told 2 things apply (PP and specific auto-D) not that only 2 things apply. Like being told HtH and Boxing apply not being the same as only them applying.

[Killer Cyborg]

Been over 344 before, the glossary only tells you to use PP and auto-dodge bonuses, not to exclude dodge bonuses.

Actually it does. "Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. Attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill, or enhancement will say "automatic dodge")."

Thus, any dodge bonus that does not say automatic dodge is excluded.

"come from P and S" is not "only come from P and S", to be exhaustive a list must say so

Disagreed. There is no reason to say that unless it was to be exclusive. you are of course free to disagree, I don't mind you being wrong

Seconded.

[eliakon]

The last 2 sentences don't reflect the text. We are told 2 things apply (PP and specific auto-D) not that only 2 things apply. Like being told HtH and Boxing apply not being the same as only them applying.

Its that whole "(the bonus, skill, or enhancement will say "automatic dodge.")" part. When the book says that bonuses to automatic dodge will say automatic dodge, then they need to say automatic dodge to add. Otherwise we can claim that anything can add to automatic dodge "well it doesn't say that I cant add my speed stat to my automatic dodge, so that's +34...."
The book provides a list of things that adds to Automatic dodge. The list is not all inclusive, however it does set forth the criterion for any additional additions to the list (that being that any bonus that seeks to add to Automatic Dodge must say that it adds to Automatic Dodge)

[say652]

I punch, target simostrike=we both get hit regardless if my character can autododge or not.

[Tor]

Its that whole "(the bonus, skill, or enhancement will say "automatic dodge.")" part.

That's only explaining example B of bonuses that apply to auto-dodging, it is explaining the phrase not the bonus pool as a whole.

When the book says that bonuses to automatic dodge will say automatic dodge, then they need to say automatic dodge to add.

It isn't saying all bonuses will say that (PP doesn't) it's saying that this is what bonuses to auto-dodge say.

RUEp342

Bonuses to auto dodge come from

the character's P.P. attribute
and
any special bonuses specifically for it

That last part? I'm going to call it ASBSFI.
This part you mention:

the bonus, skill or enhancement will say "automatic dodge"

The parenthesis explanation here is explaining what ASBSFI is.

It is not a general rule for bonuses to auto-dodge, because the PP bonus would violate that, since it is not ASBSFI.

Otherwise we can claim that anything can add to automatic dodge "well it doesn't say that I cant add my speed stat to my automatic dodge, so that's +34...."

False logic, my basis for adding bonuses is because automatic dodges are dodges, so dodge bonuses would be applied.

That said, it's funny you mention speed: you can get a dodge bonus from Speed if you play using the TMNT attribute tables, so yeah, that could also add to auto-dodge. But you wouldn't add the stat, just what the TMNT table shows. I think we're expected to use the RUE table which sadly doesn't though

The book provides a list of things that adds to Automatic dodge. The list is not all inclusive

Glad we are agree.

it does set forth the criterion for any additional additions to the list (that being that any bonus that seeks to add to Automatic Dodge must say that it adds to Automatic Dodge)

That's not a criteria for the list as a whole, it's a criteria for ASBSFI.

We are told that bonuses come from PP and ASBSFI, but not that only those 2 things add to it, like in HU2.

[eliakon]

Its that whole "(the bonus, skill, or enhancement will say "automatic dodge.")" part.

That's only explaining example B of bonuses that apply to auto-dodging, it is explaining the phrase not the bonus pool as a whole.

When the book says that bonuses to automatic dodge will say automatic dodge, then they need to say automatic dodge to add.

It isn't saying all bonuses will say that (PP doesn't) it's saying that this is what bonuses to auto-dodge say.

RUEp342

Bonuses to auto dodge come from

the character's P.P. attribute
and
any special bonuses specifically for it

That last part? I'm going to call it ASBSFI.
This part you mention:

the bonus, skill or enhancement will say "automatic dodge"

The parenthesis explanation here is explaining what ASBSFI is.

It is not a general rule for bonuses to auto-dodge, because the PP bonus would violate that, since it is not ASBSFI.

No its PP and ASBSFI. There are no listed bonuses besides PP and ASBSFI. There are two bonuses that you can add (two and only two) you can add your PP bonus and you can add your ASBSFI bonuses. It does not attempt to list all possible ASBSFI bonuses but it doesn't have to, because by definition it must be ASBSFI (or PP) to be on the list of "things that add to Autododge"

Otherwise we can claim that anything can add to automatic dodge "well it doesn't say that I cant add my speed stat to my automatic dodge, so that's +34...."

False logic, my basis for adding bonuses is because automatic dodges are dodges, so dodge bonuses would be applied.

Except for two things
1) that dodges are a different maneuver than dodges.
And since the dodge bonus does not add to Autodoge (which is easily noticed by looking at the stats of those beings with Autododge....they do not seem to get to add their Autododge bonuses to their dodge bonuses).

2) As pointed out dodge bonuses are not PP (unless the claim is that you can add PP twice....) nor are they ASBSFI.
As those are the only two things that are said to add to Autododge then it follows they do not add to Autododge. If the list had said that you add PP, Dodge, and ASBSFI then we would add the dodge bonus to it. But it didn't, there fore the regular dodge bonus is not on the list of approved things to add

I believe that this is intended to avoid the fact that if you can stack the two bonuses it is simple to make characters that can dodge any attack on a 2+

That said, it's funny you mention speed: you can get a dodge bonus from Speed if you play using the TMNT attribute tables, so yeah, that could also add to auto-dodge. But you wouldn't add the stat, just what the TMNT table shows. I think we're expected to use the RUE table which sadly doesn't though

Considering that only the TMNT rules had that ability....it would seem that yes, that is a special different rule for that specific game that does not apply to any other game. This is made clear because the stat tables for every other game have Spd providing no bonus. In any case though TMNT does not say that Spd gives a bonus to Autododge, just dodge. As such the Spd bonus fails the ASBSFI test and is not able to be added.

The book provides a list of things that adds to Automatic dodge. The list is not all inclusive

Glad we are agree.

I don't think we do.
I think that ASBSFI and PP is all inclusive however we do not know all bonuses that apply to ABSFI
All bonuses will either be PP or ASBSFI. One of the two, as those two bonuses are the only ones that are listed as being applicable to Autododge.

it does set forth the criterion for any additional additions to the list (that being that any bonus that seeks to add to Automatic Dodge must say that it adds to Automatic Dodge)

That's not a criteria for the list as a whole, it's a criteria for ASBSFI.

I beg to differ it is a criteria for any bonus that is not PP.

We are told that bonuses come from PP and ASBSFI, but not that only those 2 things add to it, like in HU2.

[/quote]
The fact that HU2 for instance does clarify this further suggests that yes, Automatic dodge only comes from PP and ASBSFI.

[Tor]

No its PP and ASBSFI.

The parenthesis is not referring to PP, the attribute tables don't specify auto-dodge as the parenthesized statement indicates. TBSOEWSAD exclusively is explaining ASBSFI.

There are two bonuses that you can add
(two and only two)

Text supports line 1 but not line 2.

It does not attempt to list all possible ASBSFI bonuses but it doesn't have to

Correct, other non-mentioned bonuses can be included by merit of referring to it indirectly by categories which it is a part of. Like for example "+1 to dodge" or "+1 to defensive actions" or "+1 to combat rolls".

by definition it must be ASBSFI (or PP) to be on the list of "things that add to Autododge"

The glossary definition does not require it be one of those two, only Crazies and Juicers and Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition do.

1) that dodges are a different maneuver than dodges.

wut?

the dodge bonus does not add to Autodoge (which is easily noticed by looking at the stats of those beings with Autododge....they do not seem to get to add their Autododge bonuses to their dodge bonuses).

Full bonuses are not always listed on NPCs. In Dragons and Gods for example we are told "in addition to attribute bonuses". Writers can expect GMs to do the grunt work of totalling up what is appropriate.

dodge bonuses are not PP (unless the claim is that you can add PP twice....) nor are they ASBSFI.

Correct, our dispute centers on whether it says "add PP and ASBSFI" or "add only PP and ASBFI". Restrictive language is lacking so you're relying on assumption of restrictiveness, even though other examples like attacks per melee clearly contradict that stance.

if you can stack the two bonuses it is simple to make characters that can dodge any attack on a 2+

I don't see how. Crazies/Juicers explicitly can't use their dodge bonuses on an auto-dodges and Commandos/Cyber-Knights don't get auto-dodge until higher levels, Commandos with low ASBSFI and Cyber-Knights restricted in who they can use it against.

Considering that only the TMNT rules had that ability....it would seem that yes, that is a special different rule for that specific game that does not apply to any other game.

Or one of those cases where they omit something but it can still be considered existing in other settings if not directly contradicted, like Chi.

TMNT does not say that Spd gives a bonus to Autododge, just dodge. As such the Spd bonus fails the ASBSFI test and is not able to be added.

The problem being that I dispute the need for an ASBSFI test, since a dodge bonus does not need to be ASBSFI to be added to an auto-dodge. The difference being that ASBSFI would not apply to normal dodges.

All bonuses will either be PP or ASBSFI

Your paraphrasing here changing the meaning. We are not told they WILL be either, we are only told that these things add bonuses.

I beg to differ it is a criteria for any bonus that is not PP.

This is not reflected in the sentence.

any special bonuses specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say "automatic dodge")

If it meant what you say then it would read something like:

any bonus that is not PP must be a special bonus specifically for it, saying "automatic dodge"

The fact that HU2 for instance does clarify this further suggests that yes, Automatic dodge only comes from PP and ASBSFI.

HU2 has different combat rules just as N&SS does, we can't rely on them to clarify Rifts ones. It only makes sense to use them for maneuvers utterly unaddressed.

For example, you can use disarm bonuses on a defensive disarm in HU, you need a natural roll in RUE.

[Dog_O_War]

Tor, does it say anywhere under dodge or any entry detailing dodge that dodge bonuses apply to auto-dodge?

[eliakon]

Tor, does it say anywhere under dodge or any entry detailing dodge that dodge bonuses apply to auto-dodge?

Tor's stance has always been that Auto-Dodge is just a type of dodge and not Its Own Thing. As such it stacks all bonuses.

[Damian Magecraft]

Tor, does it say anywhere under dodge or any entry detailing dodge that dodge bonuses apply to auto-dodge?

Tor's stance has always been that Auto-Dodge is just a type of dodge and not Its Own Thing. As such it stacks all bonuses.

Does anyone besides him believe that tho?

[glitterboy2098]

Tor, does it say anywhere under dodge or any entry detailing dodge that dodge bonuses apply to auto-dodge?

Tor's stance has always been that Auto-Dodge is just a type of dodge and not Its Own Thing. As such it stacks all bonuses.

Does anyone besides him believe that tho?

no because the rifts books have made it clear (for the last two decades) that autododge only receives bonuses listed as autododge bonuses.

[Dog_O_War]

Gents, the word-trap was for Tor, not you bunch.

[Damian Magecraft]

Gents, the word-trap was for Tor, not you bunch.

Just getting our say in before the wall o' text begins anew.

[Dog_O_War]

Gents, the word-trap was for Tor, not you bunch.

Just getting our say in before the wall o' text begins anew.

Heh, fair enough

[Spinachcat]

A jucier jumps on a cs scout and the scout sees him coming and simultaneously attacks.

Does the juicer get to auto dodge?

Absolutely yes...in my games.

I care about setting info, not rules. I rarely play any RPGs RAW, especially PB games. A juicer is a tweaked out hyper active killing machine who's hyper aware 24/7. Somebody simply doing a simo attack doesn't negate the juicers insane reflexes in my view. TO ME, that would damage immersion in the setting.

FOR ME, the Juicer having auto-dodge at all times is what allows a lone Juicer to leap into an entire squad of CS scouts who think it matters that they saw the Juicer coming and think it matters they all readied their simultaneous attacks, but lo and behold, the chemically enhanced super soldier gets a free dodge against every attack from every foe because that's the beauty of the juice.

This is why I sometimes use Juicers as villains.

[Alrik Vas]

Sometimes? Juice is best villain. They see everyone as lesser than them. Squish isn't a term they use ONLY because they think it's funny. They also think it's true. Roid rage is the dark side of humanity.

Though I don't give them auto dodge vs simultaneous attack, but they can use an action to dodge them, then take a penalty on their next attack. Squirming like that is tricky, even for them.

Though I like the jib of your jab just the same.

[Myrrhibis]

So general consensus is:

AutoDodge bonus (PP + specifically stated bonuses) won't be as high as a character's Dodge (PP+HTH+skills+class+anything else), but it's a free action?

In short, a character w/ AutoDodge (in most cases) will have to decide: Free action vs Very Good Chance to Dodge?

[flatline]

Do you allow autododge to move the dodging character out of the area of effect of such things as explosions?

[Killer Cyborg]

A jucier jumps on a cs scout and the scout sees him coming and simultaneously attacks.

Does the juicer get to auto dodge?

Not against simultaneous attack.
Auto dodge just means that it doesn't take an attack to dodge.
Simultenous Attack is not dependent on whether or not it takes an attack to dodge.

Juicers also get to dodge against attacks that would normally be surprise attacks, but Simultaneous Attack isn't dependent on surprise either.

[Killer Cyborg]

"neither opponent can parry, dodge or entangle" doesn't cover anything else, so you could still do things like defensive disarm, hold, joint lock, or automatic body flip if you got one.

Those moves, IIRC, can be used "in place of" a dodge/parry.
If you don't get to dodge/parry, then you don't get to replace the dodge/parry that you don't have with something else.

[Killer Cyborg]

Do you allow autododge to move the dodging character out of the area of effect of such things as explosions?

I would, unless it's in the area of "it takes two dodges to get out of the AoE."