Crafting rune weapons

[Whiskeyjack]

While I never intend to have someone discover the secrets of rune weapon forging in my campaigns, I've always wondered on the steps involved in their construction. Specifically, the soul that powers the weapon.
How does everyone here picture the soul being bound to a rune weapon. Are they chained on an alter and forced to meld into the weapon? Are they willing volunteers looking for a way to do more in the world, expand their power, or escape death? Many are truly evil beings, and many are crusaders of light.
Are they simply melded through magic, or do they have to be slain during the ritual? Do they remember their former life, or are they reborn in the weapon?
Just curious on what others have for thoughts on this.

[Glistam]

I've always envisioned it as a ritual sacrifice where the final quench of the forged weapon is into the body of the sacrificial victim (or an "attack" upon the victim, for blunt items). Upon contact the runes along the weapon glow and the magic draws the soul of the victim into the blade in a ine-way trip, merging its essence within the physical shell. The runes dim as this occurs, and once the bond is finalized the runes flare a brilliant light which completely obliterates/disintegrates/vaporizes the spirits original, now lifeless body. The runes then cease their glow and the weapon is ready.

[Bill]

Rifts Atlantis says that rune magic is a form of biowizardry, most of which involves large vats or crystalline containers of alchemical reagents. So I imagine that the victim is suspended in such a container while the rituals are performed and their soul transferred into its new vessel. I like picturing the arcane laboratory apparatus. If you wanted to have players interrupt the process they'd potentially need to figure out what pieces of it they could disable or destroy without killing the victim in order to free them.

[Whiskeyjack]

The Splugorth and their rune weapons have always kind of bugged me. Until Atlantis came out, they were a lost magic from ages long past, then we find out that the Splugorth manufacture them like cheap Chinese electronics.

[Bill]

The Runic Forge from the Library of Bletherad is a runic anvil. There aren't any details on exactly how it operates. Perhaps the victim is fed to it, either through ritual sacrifice or even fully absorbed as part of a magical ritual, then the weapon is forged on the anvil.

[Whiskeyjack]

I found the anvil interesting and a bit of a paradox. If it is required to forge rune weapons, how was the runic anvil forged?

[Bill]

The text doesn't indicate that it is necessary. It may just be convenient to have one, simplifying the procedures required to perform rune magic. If it is necessary, the anvil could be the creation of a powerful deity which enables its worshippers to make other rune items.

[eliakon]

There is a full Rune Forge in Eastern Territory Page 85-86. While still vague it has some hints on the process that might be of interest here. Of note is that central to the forge is an alter with a drain that leads into the hearth implying sacrifices and that the blood of the sacrifices was used in the forging process.

[Whiskeyjack]

I'll have to look that up eliakon. Several sacrifices makes their creation sound even worse. Pne would wonder how any rune weapon could contain a benevolent setience.

[ShadowLogan]

While I never intend to have someone discover the secrets of rune weapon forging in my campaigns, I've always wondered on the steps involved in their construction. Specifically, the soul that powers the weapon.
How does everyone here picture the soul being bound to a rune weapon. Are they chained on an alter and forced to meld into the weapon? Are they willing volunteers looking for a way to do more in the world, expand their power, or escape death? Many are truly evil beings, and many are crusaders of light.
Are they simply melded through magic, or do they have to be slain during the ritual? Do they remember their former life, or are they reborn in the weapon?
Just curious on what others have for thoughts on this.

Since Atlantis was brought up from Rifts I will bring up Rifts Japan, specifically the (Traditionalist) Samurai (WB8 pg43-50, looking specifically at pg44 & maybe pg46). Their daisho swords are both classified as Rune Weapons (both are "Lesser" or "Minor" category). The creation process is more detailed than in Atlantis, and is likely a variation (since it uses human subjects, where Atlantis/PF2E have it as powerful beings like Dragons and Gods being used), but it probably can give a rough idea of the normal process.

The Samurai's Rune daisho are said "At the instant of death (the first strike, chopping off the head in a single gesture), the criminal's life essence is joined to the sword, making it a living weapon." (pg44) They do add that this is considered a Ritual, though the PPE is spent w/the creation/forging process of the weapon.

The Samurai swords suggest that Rune Weapons in general may be forged "blank" and absorb the life essence of the first person it kills.

[Whiskeyjack]

I'd have to unbury my copy of Japan from the depths of wherever it may be ShadowLogan. Does it give any indication on whether the soul becomes the personality of the sword, or does the sword develop their own persona? While I can see a human being killed with one blow, that becomes much more difficult with a dragon, unless the ritual itself does the killing.

[ShadowLogan]

The personality description isn't really any different than what is found in PF2E/WB2 as far as "Independent Personality", though they are much more descriptive in assigning an IQ and that the alignments of both swords have to be the same, and what the typical alignments are for these weapons (as they are Samurai weapons, the alignment field is restricted to"honorable" ones).

Based on specific write ups I've seen for other Rune Weapons (off hand from an early Rifters, but I don't recall off hand if it was "official" material or not) that actually had information on their specific personalities, I would say that the personality of each is that of the sacrifice and not something it develops on its own. That doesn't mean the person can't develop multiple personalities though.

As for killing a high powered being (dragon, god, etc), it probably is some facet of the ritual, but one should also remember that if a being is being sacrificed they are likely to be immobilized, making them far more vulnerable to attacks such that "normal" SDC/HP/MDC rules don't apply IINM (though off-hand I don't recall where I saw it in Rifts/PF2E, I know of something similar in 1E RT's REF Field Guide for Point-Blank-Range attacks, including being tied up being far more effective in terms of damage) so that large amount of SDC/HP might not be as big a factor as it would be in regular combat.

[Hotrod]

I've occasionally wondered why Soul Drinkers don't ever seem to use the souls they drink, since this power seems so analogous to the creation process of rune weapons in the first place.

I've also occasionally wondered what other types of applications there might be for rune magic.

[Alrik Vas]

Mostly atlantean graffiti, Hotrod.

"FREE ATLANTIS!"
"SPLYNNY SUCKS TENTACLES!"
"OVERLORD = OVER PAID. DOWN WITH THE MINION RACES!"
"1000 YEARS UNDER SPLYNN
NO NEW JOBS
SLAVE LABOR CONDITIONS
RICH GET RICHER
SECRET DEALS WITH GARGOYLES

SPLYNN: THE SLAVERY PARTY"

Rune graffiti is impossible to clean up.

[ShadowLogan]

@WhiskyJack
I reviewed WB2 Atlantis from the Rifts line, and PF2E's section on Rune Magic/Weapons. I thought they where identical, they aren't. WB2 specifically states on pg127 "Because the object is infused with the life essence of the creature that empowers it, the object possesses the alignment of that life essence, as well as its personality and intelligence." So the sacrifice victim does form the personality/intelligence of the Rune item.

I've occasionally wondered why Soul Drinkers don't ever seem to use the souls they drink, since this power seems so analogous to the creation process of rune weapons in the first place.

I've also occasionally wondered what other types of applications there might be for rune magic.

WB2states the creature's life essence is imprisoned w/n a dimensional vortex. What if Soul Drinkers draw new souls into this same dimensional vortex, but the souls don't have anything to "imprison" them giving them a link to the physical world because the link is only big enough for one soul to latch onto so any other souls it draws into are lost to this vortex (off hand I don't know what happens to the trapped soul when the Rune item is destroyed). So in a sense it is like become lost in the Astral Plane, only worse (WB2 might have something more appropriate as it also has that Rift that switches alignments and grants bonus psionic powers if you come to close, but if you go to far in you are GONE FOREVER per the text).

That is my take on the Soul Drinkers at least. I always wondered why the Soul Drinkers don't get more powerful with each "soul" they drink, even if for a short time.

[Glistam]

Heroes Unlimited's sourcebook Armageddon Unlimited has a toned-down take on the Soul Drinker aspect, allowing those whose souls have been taken to 1) survive soulless for a time, and 2) the souls to be recovered - though it isn't easy. If I were running a game with soul drinkers I would probably adopt those rules regardless of whether I was in Rifts or Palladium Fantasy because the "instant death if you fail a save vs 14" doesn't sit well with me.

[Whiskeyjack]

So if the personality is that of the sacrifice, I would assume there would be a lot of very bitter/insane rune weapons out there. It would take a serious commitment to sacrifice yourself to a prison like that, especially for a dragon/god or other powerful being. I would imagine most would be in the swords against their wills.
This ties in nicely with Hotrods comments in the "keeping a rune weapon" thread. Never mind the history of their experience as a weapon, some of them may have been around during the age of chaos, as well as during the battle against the old ones. The lore they would contain would literally be priceless.
I love Hotrods and ShadowLogans line of thought on the soul drinkers as well. Having them gain additional power, even temporary, when they consume a soul would be an awesome power.
As to what happens, I've always assumed the soul was literally consumed, making it as if the person never existed, hence the no chance at resurrection. It would be a neat twist to have the soul held by the sword for a limited amount of time, during which there could be the chance for the sword to release the soul. It would be a great roleplaying angle. Deathkiss will release your friends soul back to his body, but only if you.....". It would also give the weapons a more direct impact on the story, as well as give them much more character.

[zyanitevp]

Heroes Unlimited's sourcebook Armageddon Unlimited has a toned-down take on the Soul Drinker aspect, allowing those whose souls have been taken to 1) survive soulless for a time, and 2) the souls to be recovered - though it isn't easy. If I were running a game with soul drinkers I would probably adopt those rules regardless of whether I was in Rifts or Palladium Fantasy because the "instant death if you fail a save vs 14" doesn't sit well with me.

FYI- since you sometimes guest in my game, this is what I have done- so if you get done over by a soul drinker it is not all over....

[Ldelandy]

im planning to craft rune weapons but i dont know how, what are the materials i'll be needed to craft this weapon?

[Glistam]

im planning to craft rune weapons but i dont know how, what are the materials i'll be needed to craft this weapon?

Like the process of making magic items in 2nd Edition D&D, you will need to coordinate this with your G.M..

[The Grand Poobah]

I've always envisioned it as a ritual sacrifice where the final quench of the forged weapon is into the body of the sacrificial victim (or an "attack" upon the victim, for blunt items). Upon contact the runes along the weapon glow and the magic draws the soul of the victim into the blade in a ine-way trip, merging its essence within the physical shell. The runes dim as this occurs, and once the bond is finalized the runes flare a brilliant light which completely obliterates/disintegrates/vaporizes the spirits original, now lifeless body. The runes then cease their glow and the weapon is ready.

I agree with this version

[cosmicfish]

So if the personality is that of the sacrifice, I would assume there would be a lot of very bitter/insane rune weapons out there. It would take a serious commitment to sacrifice yourself to a prison like that, especially for a dragon/god or other powerful being. I would imagine most would be in the swords against their wills.

I always assumed one of two circumstances:

1) Constrained beings. It would make sense that many of the sacrificial victims were bitter, angry, insane, and/or evil*, but the soul is not given free reign over the weapon in any case so that may not matter much to the creator - if the spells hold (in many cases they clearly do NOT!) then the soul's attitude has no impact on anything.

2) Dying fanatics. The rune weapon needs a soul, not a body. Some fanatics, strong in psyche but with a tortured or dying physical body, may choose to end their life slightly early in return for an immortal contribution to their cause. Bear in mind that up until the ritual itself they may not know what they are getting into, and may become bitter, angry, insane, and/or evil over time, but they may go willingly to the slaughter. Also bear in mind that at the time most rune weapons were being forged, there may have been a greater density of "greater beings" and other circumstances that would make their decisions easier to make.

*: By "evil" I mean "opposed to the alignment of the creator", as that is what would be really problematic.

[Whiskeyjack]

Between this thread and the keeping a rune weapon thread, I think my rune weapons are going to have quite a lot more flavour in future games.

[tuvermage]

The weapon must be carefully made before hand, usually taking months as it requires thousands of PPE to prepare the item. During the creation, the rune smith not only shapes the weapon but the enchantments on the item. Depending on how they shape the prison for the soul will determine how cursed the rune object is (as the curses are usually the soul inside trying to influence the world around it) if they create a paradise of a prison, then there will be no curses, but will take longer to make and use more PPE. If they do the bare minimum then it will have 2 or more curses. To make it a rune object, it must drink the blood out of the still beating heart of the victim. These is one of the problems, the victim must be exceptional in power, which means holding them down, cutting open their chest and having the object drink their blood, won't be easy. As for soul drinkers, in my game, the power of the soul drank will get added to the blade, PPE base increases. These gets complex as if the prison wasn't design to hold more then curse rules pop up again, depending on the power level of the soul trap, each soul can add up to 3 curses. Or the blade can be design to fizz the soul. A rune smith has to be 9th level or higher to reshape the enchantments on their rune objects and 15th to change any object they didn't make.

While none of my players have learned rune magic, they befriended a lizard mage who could. The quests to make just a single object became epic and lasted months. They had to track the high powered creature, plan out how they were going to attack it. How to keep the thing contained and alive until the ritual was over, plus the aftermath of attacking high powered creatures.