State of England in the opening salvos of the Minion War...

[greengrunt1]

I can't find any official source material about what's happening in England when the demons and deevils invade.

[drewkitty ~..~]

As far as I know there is none.
The Alien Intel. there would resist any invasion there from ether side of the MW.

[1stTimeGM]

And the Millennium Trees. Not to mention all those fomorian demons, blood druids, Cernun Mystics, and Splynn having an outpost there.

Perhaps, if you're looking for ideas, any of them (besides Splynn) could be proxies/dupes/allies of/for either side?

[greengrunt1]

Thanks. Conjecturing here- The Millennium Trees control several ley lines in England but not all of them, so their powers (the Millennial Storms) would curb some hordes from pouring through. One would think that the deevils/demons would make a push to seize the Stonehenge Complex and begin constructing a Hell Pit there. London-Splynn and Camelot's forces are woefully understrength to deal with a major demon/deevil incursion. Even Zazshan and his splintered essences would have a rough go with the invasion. I'd say that at least some parts of England would fall to the demons in a few months time if not sooner. Any thoughts?

[eliakon]

I think that for once the Splugorth base in London is going to be an advantage.
Since both sides are trying to not attract Splyncryths attention (since if he decides to enforce his 'no taking over the world' policy it would get ugly, fast) I would think they would avoid most of England.
Especially since you don't want any ley line that has a Millennium Tree on it.

Most of the forces trying to take Stonehenge would be unprepared for the level of resistance they would face as well. (Myrlyn lives there as I recall...)

What I do think is very likely though is that they would send in some forces to make sure that the forces of England did not get involved and were to busy dealing with problems at home to meddle elsewhere.

[The Grand Poobah]

Let's be honest here. The MW would roll all over and crush England. First the islands underpopulated, second they have no "large" armies and lastly there tech level isn't the greatest. If the MW can threaten NA and the CS/large kingdoms what chance does England have?

[The Dark Elf]

Don't forget faerie are in their hundreds of thousands and are powerful.

[eliakon]

And apparently according to MiF Stonehendge is not suitable for use as a Hell Pit either.

So lets see....
Hundreds of thousands of Fairies
Splugorth
Most of the ley lines are unusable
A hostile Alien Intelligence AND a Hostile Pantheon
its full of crusading do-gooders
And its not really that big (which also means that they don't have room to maneuver themselves)

Sounds like someplace to leave for later

Now where I would say is in deep trouble is Australia.
Almost no native magic users, TONS of ley lines, very low tech, no allies, no friendly pantheons.....

[glitterboy2098]

Now where I would say is in deep trouble is Australia.
Almost no native magic users, TONS of ley lines, very low tech, no allies, no friendly pantheons.....

protected by the Rainbow Serpent though. and its heavily implied that the aborigines have potent, if unconventional, magic.

[FrankSerpico]

I think there's been a trend to underestimate the non-North American powers because they haven't been focused on for so long. The Problem with England is not only does it have a Splynncryth presence plus Camelot, a Millennium Tree and types of magic the Demons or Deevils may be unfamiliar with, you can't mess with England without the NGR, Gargoyles and Phoenix Empire taking notice.

[Alrik Vas]

The gargoyles would likely ally with the demon side, though, and do it under Splynn's nose. They wouldn't come to England's defense anyway, they'd take advantage of the NGR shifting focus to aid them if anything.

[FrankSerpico]

From what I remember in the literature that came out prior to the Minion War, (I have yet to read any of the Megaverse in Flames books) gargoyles were very much second class citizens in Hades and Dyval. That, and the fact that if they allied with either the demons or Deevils in the event they moved into Europe, they'd essentially be declaring war on Atlantis and the Phoenix Empire, as well. I don't see the Gargoyles allying with either demonic faction for those two main reasons.

[glitterboy2098]

if the gargoyle and brodkil empires did choose sides, i suspect they'd take the risk and ally with the Deevils.. they Know the Demons of hades will just subjugate them again into sub-demons. the Deevils of Dyval may be more open to according the Gargoyle Empire and the Brodkil Empire better status both in the war itself and after.

agreed though that they'd likely not want to get involved with either. the Deevils may(!) be more open to negotiations, but siding with Dyval means that the Empires become targets for hades. and that siding with either means that support from the Splugorth and Phoenix Empire will dry up. (though splugorth support had been drying up some already post-PA106)

as far as england is concerned.. whether the monster empires get involved would depend, i think, on what Myrlynn does. if the entity that is pulling New Camelot's strings decides to arrange some covert alliances, and manipulates events in new Camelot, the Gargoyles and Brodkil may well send forces to get involved. i could see Myrrlynn using a demon conflict to help get rid of some of the more good aligned Knights and elevate the Knights more conductive to the evil goals of New Camelot. after the kingdom has lost some of its best knights, and Arthuu's council start getting filled with ones that are less principled, Arthuu could be talked into stuff New Camelot wouldn't have considered before, like say allying with a monster kingdom, even if only 'until the war ends'.

[Alrik Vas]

Thought the whole point of the minion war spilling into everything is that you have to choose a side.

Really, if you know the power if hades/dyvaal, are you going to think Splynncryth ultimately stands a chance?

Or am I overestimating endless hordes again?

[glitterboy2098]

Thought the whole point of the minion war spilling into everything is that you have to choose a side.

Really, if you know the power if hades/dyvaal, are you going to think Splynncryth ultimately stands a chance?

Or am I overestimating endless hordes again?

Splynncryth though had some very massive forces of his own though, thanks to the Kydian worlds of his. and i suspect he'd use diplomacy to get himself declared neutral, and as a result be able to sell to both sides.

[Alrik Vas]

Ok...so Atlantis won't protect the gargoyles. I'd say that puts them in a place where they're forced to choose between the two sides.

[Nox Equites]

Splynncryth could rift in thousands of Metzlas and wipe all but billion strong assaults. He doesn't conquer RE because he loves to watch lesser beings struggle.

[eliakon]

Yeah Splugorth are just crazy strong.
While Splyncryth is a 'young' and realativly 'weak' one...that is by Splugorth standards. Considering that some of the other individuals we know of have.....Dispossessed (and nearly killed off) the entire pantheon of India, Stand off the Kreghor Empire, and similar parlor tricks.....and even that young, weak SPlyncryth is able to protect Atlantis against the combined might of the entire Atlantian race and all of their allies.
Yeah, they are in the Do Not Taunt Cthulhu level of Bad News.

[Alrik Vas]

They're strong, among the strongest in all the megaverse. Part of that strength is their holdings, which require manpower to protect. Though I myself have suggested that a splugorth keeps a few hundred thousand kittani as a QRF that's ready to be rifted anywhere they want to obliterate whoever they choose, there comes a point of the weight of numbers.

I mean, what happens to the force accustomed to having the steamroller advantage when it's turned against them very abruptly?

Splynny doesn't crap where he eats for many reasons, not just good policy, there are other, stronger beings out there with more followers.

Not saying it's a foregone conclusion if it comes to a fight, but I think Atlantis would settle off the battlefield and shift it's focus to keep profits up.

[eliakon]

They're strong, among the strongest in all the megaverse. Part of that strength is their holdings, which require manpower to protect. Though I myself have suggested that a splugorth keeps a few hundred thousand kittani as a QRF that's ready to be rifted anywhere they want to obliterate whoever they choose, there comes a point of the weight of numbers.

I mean, what happens to the force accustomed to having the steamroller advantage when it's turned against them very abruptly?

Splynny doesn't crap where he eats for many reasons, not just good policy, there are other, stronger beings out there with more followers.

Not saying it's a foregone conclusion if it comes to a fight, but I think Atlantis would settle off the battlefield and shift it's focus to keep profits up.

One thing people need to remember is this isn't D&D
Hades and Dyval are not infinite planes brimming with infinite numbers of infernals.
Each of them is basically working with the population of a single world....which to be honest makes the whole Minion War a bit....questionable. Though it does explain why they are so heavily recruiting additional troops.
But every singe member of both sides is out numbered, significantly, by Splyncryths troops. And if by some miracle they manage to take HIM out, one of the other Splugorth would move in on the now open territory with a fresh, likely larger force.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Splynny doesn't crap where he eats for many reasons, not just good policy, there are other, stronger beings out there with more followers.

It's not presented this way though. It's presented as "Splynncryth could easily conquer the entire planet, but that would draw other powers into a giant war and would not be profitable, so he doesn't bother, and helps to enforce the "no one gets to have all of earth" unofficial policy to keep this from happening so it doesn't spoil the pot".

At no point is it ever intimated that Splynncryth is afraid of.. well, anything. The Splugorth pretty much consider themselves top dogs in the Multiverse with the Old Ones out of the picture, and apart from a few single unique entities (Like the dweller beneath), nothing has ever been presented to counter this in canon.

One thing people need to remember is this isn't D&D
Hades and Dyval are not infinite planes brimming with infinite numbers of infernals.
Each of them is basically working with the population of a single world....which to be honest makes the whole Minion War a bit....questionable. Though it does explain why they are so heavily recruiting additional troops.
But every singe member of both sides is out numbered, significantly, by Splyncryths troops. And if by some miracle they manage to take HIM out, one of the other Splugorth would move in on the now open territory with a fresh, likely larger force.

Pretty much everything Eli says. For shiggles, i went through the Hades book just now and totalled up the populations of each region and city, as given.

The grand total of the "endless armies of Hades"?

52.5 million. If they strip every single demon out. Now, even though it never says this, lets assume there's a lot more demons out there than are presented because the book usually focuses on cities and only a few times gives populations for an entire region.

Lets say its 10x as many. 525 million. Hell, 100x as many. 5.25 Billion.

Right on. If you strip every Demon out of Hades, you can field 5.25 Billion Demons.

Splynncryth, who is apparently a young, poor upstart of a Splugorth at only controlling three planets (I really think Kevin's intention was for this to seem super-impressive, and when the Splugorth were later expanded to being interstellar empire owning bad-asses, we probably should have ret-conned Splynnie being one of those Splugorth in the Three Galaxies with a few hundred or a thousand planets or so in his regime, but.. whatever, well stick with canon). Three planets, two of which are primarily Kydian, and third that is Kydian/Kittani. Kydians breed in litters starting from a young age and mature insanely quickly. (Faster than Demons sent back to Hades can return to 'life', actually). Their planets were noted for having TRILLIONS of citzens, that they couldn't feed until the Splugorth rescued them. They were then encouraged to KEEP UP THE BREEDING, because expendable troops are great. And while the Kittani certainly aren't THAT plentiful, its fair to say that "billions" is probably a good number to go with since they have super-high tech medicine and an advanced society.

Easily half of the Kydian population and perhaps 25% or more of the Kittani are warriors, maybe more. (That's how the Atlantis population breaks down, at least - and on Atlantis, EVERY Kydian noted in the population is a warrior)...

So Splynncryth alone could put Hades and Dyval in their places at a whim. Even trading dozens of men per demon, he can keep up the attrition for l onger than they can and send them packing back to their holes... not that he's going to have to - Splynncryth's (and any Splugorth's) forces are both highly magical AND highly tech oriented - entire battalions of demons can be obliterated by a single Kittani pressing a button to launch volley after volley of long-range missiles into their formation for which they have practically zero defense and which the Splugorth can provide in essentially unlimited ammounts.

In addition, even on the ground, all Minion are armed with powerful high-tech, long-range weapons; demons will be cut down in job lots just trying to close the distance on Splugorthian forces, and then theyre going to find that by and large, except for the Greater Demons that Powerlords, Overlords, Altara, and Kittani are more than a match, even in hand-to-hand, for the lesser demons. Armed with bio-wizardry weapons, supernatural strength (Powerlords, Overlords), extreme skill and high tech weaponry (Kittani and Altara) most lesser demons are going to be in for a rough day coming up against a Minion of the Splugorth. Serpent Power armor vs most of the lesser demons? Thats a lot of dead demons.

Accounting for high-tech advantages (like long range bombardment, ability to engage, even in army-on-army fights, for a few minutes before the demons can close the distance for their few ranged weapons/get into melee) and the fact that are also a highly MAGICAL force with Overlords, High Lords, and Tatooed Men (even a greater demon might himself having issues wtih a Maxi-Man or two, what with their renewable 75MDC/level shields, supernatural strength and magic weapons) - the Demons aren't going to have a good day.

So not only does Splynncryth (a Splugorth with a "paltry" three worlds + Atlantis) have the Demons of Hades handily outnumbered even when using extremely wild assumptions on the true demon population, he doesn't even have to worry about paying a high attrition rate - he can probably expect to lose 2 men for every demon, but he can more than afford to without even putting a dent in his available forces. And if things get really hairy, the Splugorth, while selfish and often competing with each other, are not happy with Hades and Dyval at the moment and will probably be happy (for a price) send in their forces as well. Its shown in Dimensional Outbreak that the Splugorth empires in the Galaxies are simply not having this upstart Demon invasion and put the demons down hard at every single opportunity.

[eliakon]

Splynny doesn't crap where he eats for many reasons, not just good policy, there are other, stronger beings out there with more followers.

It's not presented this way though. It's presented as "Splynncryth could easily conquer the entire planet, but that would draw other powers into a giant war and would not be profitable, so he doesn't bother, and helps to enforce the "no one gets to have all of earth" unofficial policy to keep this from happening so it doesn't spoil the pot".

At no point is it ever intimated that Splynncryth is afraid of.. well, anything. The Splugorth pretty much consider themselves top dogs in the Multiverse with the Old Ones out of the picture, and apart from a few single unique entities (Like the dweller beneath), nothing has ever been presented to counter this in canon.

Well to be fair, they seem to consider the collective might of the Promethian race to be their equal. Possibly the Dominator civilization as well.....but that's really not saying much now is it

One thing people need to remember is this isn't D&D
Hades and Dyval are not infinite planes brimming with infinite numbers of infernals.
Each of them is basically working with the population of a single world....which to be honest makes the whole Minion War a bit....questionable. Though it does explain why they are so heavily recruiting additional troops.
But every singe member of both sides is out numbered, significantly, by Splyncryths troops. And if by some miracle they manage to take HIM out, one of the other Splugorth would move in on the now open territory with a fresh, likely larger force.

Pretty much everything Eli says. For shiggles, i went through the Hades book just now and totalled up the populations of each region and city, as given.

The grand total of the "endless armies of Hades"?

52.5 million. If they strip every single demon out. Now, even though it never says this, lets assume there's a lot more demons out there than are presented because the book usually focuses on cities and only a few times gives populations for an entire region.

So.....right around the same population size as the CS then.....

Which means that just Rifts Earth, all on its own, if every mortal nation pooled their militaries could field an army almost as large as Modeus, possibly larger.

Never mind some one like the UWW or the CAF...
(nations which I might hasten to add are leery of starting wars with a single Splugorth....because they are not sure they could win)

[glitterboy2098]

Hades and Dyvall can pretty much punch way above their weight because while their numbers are fairly small compared to what the Splugorth can throw around, even 52 million is a pretty big number compared to most of the opponents they'd be taking on.. meaning stuff like the disunified militaries/freelancers of the various earth's, backwaters like PFRPG, etc. combine the fact that they can throw tens of millions of troops around when most of their targets would be in the hundreds of thousands or low millions, the fact that every Demon/Deevil is [at minimum!] on par with a Main Battle Tank if not a company or battalion of them, and the fact that any Demons/Deevils that DO manage to be brought down aren't actually dead, just cut off from coming back for a period of time.. and they can pretty much steamroller anything EXCEPT the big powers like deities, the Splugorth, and the major stellar nations of places like phase world.

Demons and Deevils are in some ways like the Goa'uld of stargate in strategy.. they have to rely heavily on a massive power imbalance and terror tactics to come out ahead.

[eliakon]

Hades and Dyvall can pretty much punch way above their weight because while their numbers are fairly small compared to what the Splugorth can throw around, even 52 million is a pretty big number compared to most of the opponents they'd be taking on.. meaning stuff like the disunified militaries/freelancers of the various earth's, backwaters like PFRPG, etc. combine the fact that they can throw tens of millions of troops around when most of their targets would be in the hundreds of thousands or low millions, the fact that every Demon/Deevil is [at minimum!] on par with a Main Battle Tank if not a company or battalion of them, and the fact that any Demons/Deevils that DO manage to be brought down aren't actually dead, just cut off from coming back for a period of time.. and they can pretty much steamroller anything EXCEPT the big powers like deities, the Splugorth, and the major stellar nations of places like phase world.

Demons and Deevils are in some ways like the Goa'uld of stargate in strategy.. they have to rely heavily on a massive power imbalance and terror tactics to come out ahead.

True. They can walk all over lesser forces. But that is only against lesser forces. Both sides are basically megaversal school yard bullies. Able to beat up the first graders, take their lunch money and rule the kindergarten sandbox...but the idea that they can do anything to the real big boys is simply....well it would be short, painful, and might be amusing to watch from a safe distance.

[Alrik Vas]

So what I gather from this conversation is that the splugorth are bigger than hell.

That is amusing.

It is also very disappointing.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

So what I gather from this conversation is that the splugorth are bigger than hell.

That is amusing.

It is also very disappointing.

To be fair, they were always presented this way, even in WB2.

There are more Kydians in Splynn (all of them Overlords or Powerlords) than the entirety of the CS Armed forces (as presented in CWC/SoT/Aftermath), and that was way back when in 104 PA since Atlantis hasn't really been revisited in the same fashion (not that Splynncryth has likely added much to the mix, he doesnt need to).

And that's just in Splynn. A bunch of the other Atlantean cities have hundreds of thousands more Kydians... and about 8 million Kittani, and 3-4 million Altarra.

That's just whats sitting in Atlantis (and.. yeah... 500,000! High Lords in Splynn.).

But, yeah.. "Splugorth are huge and powerful" has been a thing since Day 1, pretty much.

[eliakon]

So what I gather from this conversation is that the splugorth are bigger than hell.

That is amusing.

It is also very disappointing.

Well there is also the fact that Palladium doesn't really do 'hell'
The closest is that they started to do a hell in Rifts China. Which by the way as written has just an insane number of infernals....
But most of the Neatherworlds are just 'nasty places full of monsters' and not any sort of metaphysical 'place of punishment' or afterlife

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Hades and Dyvall can pretty much punch way above their weight because while their numbers are fairly small compared to what the Splugorth can throw around, even 52 million is a pretty big number compared to most of the opponents they'd be taking on.. meaning stuff like the disunified militaries/freelancers of the various earth's, backwaters like PFRPG, etc.

I agree with you here. Though keep in mind that number is if they are stripping Hades totally bare. And the Deevils have substantially less numbers, actually (I didnt want to go dig out Dyval, but there is a passage in Hades where it says that once the Deevils got operatives into Hades through a back door, they were appalled at how badly outnumbered they were by the Demons and immediately started trying to recruit every sucker they could to fight with them. And given the nature of the Minion War (its happening in lots of places at once, and the big one is the Three Galaxies where they are up against civilizations with tens of millions of men under arms and fleets of warships, you have to know that a large chunk of available forces are committed there, limiting what they can send to any one other warzone) - they cant field their full might at one place. Thats why the Coalition and North America aren't just going to get turned into paste in "Heroes of Humanity" - because the Demons can only field a force that the CS is actually pretty capable of dealing with.

combine the fact that they can throw tens of millions of troops around when most of their targets would be in the hundreds of thousands or low millions,

Again, agreed. But considering the next part....

the fact that every Demon/Deevil is [at minimum!] on par with a Main Battle Tank if not a company or battalion of them,

Umm.. nope, not really. Other than, Ironically, the Gargoyles (who get treated like scum), most of the lesser demons sorta suck, actually. Very few of them even have more than 100 MDC. The Deevils aren't a lot better, in fact, a lot of them are even weaker than Demons (but they have a lot more in the way of magic, psionics, and trickery up their sleeves that more than offsets that). Even the greater demons dont really have more than ~450 on average (or less), until you get to the really tough buggers like a Baal-Rog and a Demon Locust and tougher, and there are a LOT less of those than the lesser demons.

Ironically, as i said, the Gargoyles are the toughest of the lot barring the top-end greaters. Unlike the Gargoyles of Europe, though, these guys aren't packing modern energy weapons and body armor. So, they're tough, but they have to close to melee range for the most part, and even the ones armed with the few ranged weapons the Demons have still have to close WELL into the range of even CS infantry before they can fire back.

and the fact that any Demons/Deevils that DO manage to be brought down aren't actually dead, just cut off from coming back for a period of time..

Years to decades, in most cases.

and they can pretty much steamroller anything EXCEPT the big powers like deities, the Splugorth, and the major stellar nations of places like phase world.

Demons and Deevils are in some ways like the Goa'uld of stargate in strategy.. they have to rely heavily on a massive power imbalance and terror tactics to come out ahead.

If they could bring their full power to bear on a single target like the CS, then yeah, theyd win pretty handily. Numbers alone would handle it. But, ironically, if they field a force roughly the size of the CS armed forces, or those of the CS + its allies... the nations of earth actually have a good chance of winning, because a lot of the technical advantages possessed by the Splugorth forces are possessed by the CS as well (LRM bombardments against Demons.. who have almost no defense of any kind against it will be devestating in and of itself) - like the ability to engage the enemy for several minutes from far outside their range before they can close on you - and thats IF you are rooted (defending a city or something) and cant fire and maneuver. A fast moving battalion of SAMs will murder demons in job lots (nothing can match the range of that trusty old C-40R, or catch up to the SAMs when they turn away to make another firing pass)... infantry fighting in fight-and-maneuver, mounted on fast APCs and supported by CS Hovertanks fighting a retreating line (with those 6000-8000ft ranges on their main rail guns and laser cannons, and medium range missile armaments) will kill many times their own number.

Like you said, they can only get away with it via brute power, and it doesn't look li ke theyre going to be able to bring that to bear on Rifts Earth (largely because the Minion War wont let them concentrate their forces that heavily).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

In that whole Splynncryth/Splugorth thing, i somehow forgot the Metzla, too. Well just let that one go, i guess.

[eliakon]

and they can pretty much steamroller anything EXCEPT the big powers like deities, the Splugorth, and the major stellar nations of places like phase world.

Demons and Deevils are in some ways like the Goa'uld of stargate in strategy.. they have to rely heavily on a massive power imbalance and terror tactics to come out ahead.

If they could bring their full power to bear on a single target like the CS, then yeah, theyd win pretty handily. Numbers alone would handle it. But, ironically, if they field a force roughly the size of the CS armed forces, or those of the CS + its allies... the nations of earth actually have a good chance of winning, because a lot of the technical advantages possessed by the Splugorth forces are possessed by the CS as well (LRM bombardments against Demons.. who have almost no defense of any kind against it will be devestating in and of itself) - like the ability to engage the enemy for several minutes from far outside their range before they can close on you - and thats IF you are rooted (defending a city or something) and cant fire and maneuver. A fast moving battalion of SAMs will murder demons in job lots (nothing can match the range of that trusty old C-40R, or catch up to the SAMs when they turn away to make another firing pass)... infantry fighting in fight-and-maneuver, mounted on fast APCs and supported by CS Hovertanks fighting a retreating line (with those 6000-8000ft ranges on their main rail guns and laser cannons, and medium range missile armaments) will kill many times their own number.

Like you said, they can only get away with it via brute power, and it doesn't look li ke theyre going to be able to bring that to bear on Rifts Earth (largely because the Minion War wont let them concentrate their forces that heavily).

It's worse than that though....
They are not the attackers they are the defenders. They have to try and defend fixed immobile positions (the hell pits)
Which means that they are the ones who have to deal with raids, with attrition warfare, with long range bombardment, and all the other things that make defending fixed locations miserable in warefare.....but they haven't been there long enough to get all the neat perks like built up defenses in depth, nor do they really use technology enough to have the sorts of advanced defenses (air defense batteries, radar stations, interceptor wings, etc)

Granted they do have an amazing QRF ability in their Dimensional Teleport abilities....but that still takes time, and if your target is moving you either have to teleport to where you think they are going, or where they were....and if your not moving as fast as they are you don't get a lot of time to engage.

And on top of that those positions are locations where the dimensional bleed can make them die permanently.
So if they do manage to activate a Hell Pit....if someone drops a nuke on it every demon or devil in the area dies forever.

[glitterboy2098]

and actually they are on par with a MBT. remember than a suit of rifts EBA and laser rifle can match the durability and firepower of an MBT.

even the weakest Demon is on par with several such troops. the power extreme becomes even bigger in SDC world, where Demons don't usually lose too much in power, but they're usually facing opponents quite a bit lower on the power scale.

[eliakon]

and actually they are on par with a MBT. remember than a suit of rifts EBA and laser rifle can match the durability and firepower of an MBT.

even the weakest Demon is on par with several such troops. the power extreme becomes even bigger in SDC world, where Demons don't usually lose too much in power, but they're usually facing opponents quite a bit lower on the power scale.

True. In the HU world they are a serious threat.
A full scale invasion of the HU, BTS, or ATB worlds would be a bloodbath most likely followed by an annexation of that world.
I leave the PF world off the list simply because there are enough gods active personally on that world that a full scale invasion of the PF world would trigger a counter invasion by the troops of those gods. The resulting godswar would devastate the world, decimate civilization and generally be a full scale Apocalypse...but it probably wouldn't end in an infernal victory. (though it has the horrifying worse result of releasing the various trapped and sleeping beings there. And if the Old Ones wake up everybodies party is over.)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

and actually they are on par with a MBT. remember than a suit of rifts EBA and laser rifle can match the durability and firepower of an MBT.

But not a Rifts MBT. a Rifts MBT, such as a Coalition Linebacker MBT, has hundreds of MDC (just shy of 800) and is armed with (oddly enough, shorter ranges for most of its weapons than modern MBTs by a decent amount) long-range weapons (6000ft on the main guns, 4000ft on the "backup" railguns, 40+ miles from MRMs, a mile from Mini Missiles, 4000ft on the backup guns (the rear facing turret and cupola gun). All of them do very decent damage - the lowest is 6d6 for the rear-facing turret; the cupola gun is either a Missile Rifle or the CTT-Particle beam weapon used by the Striker SAM and Mauler, or a C-40R Railgun.

That's the kind of tank theyre facing in Rifts. No single lesser demon, not even a gargoyle (maybe - MAYBE- a Lord?) is on par with that. Even the Lord is unlikely, though, because he still has to get close to the thing and its got a gunner for every weapon system, so thats a LOT of incoming fire to weather. Even packs of non-gargoyle lesser demons stand no chance. They cant even move as fast it can in most cases. It can just ride away from them while shooting them to death.

And in an SDC setting? Again, the lesser demons, and even the more common greater ones, dont have a lot of SDC. Its more than their MDC total, but, again, in an SDC setting, an MBT has hundreds (sometimes a thousand or more) of SDC... and oddly enough, that old SDC tech has far better range. Miles on an MBT's main gun.

even the weakest Demon is on par with several such troops.

Uh... they have less MDC, no ranged weaponry to speak of, and do less damage, on average. Seriously, im looking at the book right now. Apart from Gargoyles (which we've already discussed, are quite literally tougher than anything other than the toughest of the Major Demons), only one or two of the lesser demons can even break 200MDC. Most have issue breaking 100.

A CS Grunt is in 100MDC body armor and carrying a weapon capable of doing at least 6d6 MD (or more). Rarely, a little less (if armed with a Dead-Man's railgun) - but the 4000ft range sorta equals out on that. No lesser demon is worth "several such troops".

the power extreme becomes even bigger in SDC world, where Demons don't usually lose too much in power,

Most of them convert down 1:1 or very, very close to it, several of them LOSE total SDC/HP compared to their MDC total, and some of the more powerful ones end up with more SDC/HP than their MDC total.

but they're usually facing opponents quite a bit lower on the power scale.

Again, not really. The average soldier in body armor in a modern SDC setting has over 100 SDC/HP, and is carrying a weapon that inflicts 4d6 damage per shot, and potentially a great deal more in burst fire. And grenades, etc.

I'm not really sure why you think the demons are all that tough. Their stats dont represent that. Again, apart from Gargoyles. Theyre flying tanks, damn near literally.

The lack of wide-spread ranged weapons is what the big equalizer is. The lower tech the society theyre invading (once we're down into SDC settings) does vastly lower the chances of the indigs. But a modern day setting... wouldn't necessarily fare any worse than Rifts earth.

The only thing making the Gargoyle Empire in Europe dangerous, at all, is that they adopted High tech weaponry. Otherwise... even their high MDC wouldnt have stopped the NGR from just exterminating them at its leisure. Even the old X-10Z Predator - a sqaud of 10-12 of those could have killed any number of Gargoyles without ever being harmed. The gargoyles cant catch them or escape from them, and without tech weapons have no way of even replying. The PA pilots could just loiter out at range and pick them off like so many game turkeys.

That gets a lot more dangerous when the turkeys start packing energy weapons and fire back, though. The Demons of Hades, though, (including 'their' Gargoyles), eschew modern weapons entirely, dont really like TW weapons (too much like modern weapons) and only really like to use Bone/Blood magic weapons and Bio-wizard type weapons (which they cant produce themselves) - so almost none of them have personal ranged weapons, and the few they do have are super short range (pistol ranges or even less) and dont do particularly dazzling damage. (just ran across this passage in the Hades book, in case you're wondering where im getting that from).

Think trench warfare in WW1, if you will... when a bunch of Brits charged a trench that was defended by the first machine guns deployed in a war like that - they lose 60,000 guys in ONE DAY, the germans... lost about 100.

Its a lot like that for the Demons/Deevils. They have to charge into withering enemy fire and storm across 6000+ feet of battlefield before they can even begin to do damage. Its pretty lopsided.

[Alrik Vas]

They gave demons and deevils finite numbers while they keep the splugorth ambiguous. That's the issue.

[The Dark Elf]

They gave demons and deevils finite numbers while they keep the splugorth ambiguous. That's the issue.

Dont forget infernals come back to life over time unless they're killed in their own dimension (Hades or Dyval). Every little helps.

[eliakon]

They gave demons and deevils finite numbers while they keep the splugorth ambiguous. That's the issue.

Dont forget infernals come back to life over time unless they're killed in their own dimension (Hades or Dyval). Every little helps.

That 'come back to life' thing though is actually moot really....
....as there is no official way for them to breed like mortals it is rather nebulous how they get more demons or deevils. Basically this is their way of 'replacing through birth' losses that the rest of their foes get by just raising some kids to be soldiers.....
....except of course the don't get to ever ADD to that number just subtract.....
In the long run (other than the Death Demons) they lose out over the mortals every single time.

[kaid]

And apparently according to MiF Stonehendge is not suitable for use as a Hell Pit either.

So lets see....
Hundreds of thousands of Fairies
Splugorth
Most of the ley lines are unusable
A hostile Alien Intelligence AND a Hostile Pantheon
its full of crusading do-gooders
And its not really that big (which also means that they don't have room to maneuver themselves)

Sounds like someplace to leave for later

Now where I would say is in deep trouble is Australia.
Almost no native magic users, TONS of ley lines, very low tech, no allies, no friendly pantheons.....

I think england falls into the bucket of bigger fish to fry. Demons and devils likely would focus more on taking out the biggest threats/obstacles because if they can do it then picking off the remainders would be pretty simple to do. On the large scale of things nothing in england would be that much of a threat to the invasion if it got really moving and unless the demons wanted it for a jump off point for attacking atlantis I don't see that it offers them to much for their initial major theaters of operation.

[kaid]

Thought the whole point of the minion war spilling into everything is that you have to choose a side.

Really, if you know the power if hades/dyvaal, are you going to think Splynncryth ultimately stands a chance?

Or am I overestimating endless hordes again?

Its not so much overestimating endless hordes it is a matter of the demons and devils have to setup beach heads with the hell pits which are a non trivial and pretty obvious point of entry to come in huge numbers. Until those get setup and established for a long period of time their numbers are anything but endless and any demon/devil killed in the area of influence of the hell pit suffer permanent death unlike normal where they just go back to their normal home and have to regenerate over time. The war for earth conducted this way is going to be costly for them in a way we have not seen before and they are forced to defend big obvious and honestly somewhat vulnerable hell pits to maintain their access. Destroy one pylon controlling a hell pit it is likely down until the next solstice destroy all remaining pylons and the hell pit is rendered useless they have to start over from scratch.

[kaid]

and they can pretty much steamroller anything EXCEPT the big powers like deities, the Splugorth, and the major stellar nations of places like phase world.

Demons and Deevils are in some ways like the Goa'uld of stargate in strategy.. they have to rely heavily on a massive power imbalance and terror tactics to come out ahead.

If they could bring their full power to bear on a single target like the CS, then yeah, theyd win pretty handily. Numbers alone would handle it. But, ironically, if they field a force roughly the size of the CS armed forces, or those of the CS + its allies... the nations of earth actually have a good chance of winning, because a lot of the technical advantages possessed by the Splugorth forces are possessed by the CS as well (LRM bombardments against Demons.. who have almost no defense of any kind against it will be devestating in and of itself) - like the ability to engage the enemy for several minutes from far outside their range before they can close on you - and thats IF you are rooted (defending a city or something) and cant fire and maneuver. A fast moving battalion of SAMs will murder demons in job lots (nothing can match the range of that trusty old C-40R, or catch up to the SAMs when they turn away to make another firing pass)... infantry fighting in fight-and-maneuver, mounted on fast APCs and supported by CS Hovertanks fighting a retreating line (with those 6000-8000ft ranges on their main rail guns and laser cannons, and medium range missile armaments) will kill many times their own number.

Like you said, they can only get away with it via brute power, and it doesn't look li ke theyre going to be able to bring that to bear on Rifts Earth (largely because the Minion War wont let them concentrate their forces that heavily).

It's worse than that though....
They are not the attackers they are the defenders. They have to try and defend fixed immobile positions (the hell pits)
Which means that they are the ones who have to deal with raids, with attrition warfare, with long range bombardment, and all the other things that make defending fixed locations miserable in warefare.....but they haven't been there long enough to get all the neat perks like built up defenses in depth, nor do they really use technology enough to have the sorts of advanced defenses (air defense batteries, radar stations, interceptor wings, etc)

Granted they do have an amazing QRF ability in their Dimensional Teleport abilities....but that still takes time, and if your target is moving you either have to teleport to where you think they are going, or where they were....and if your not moving as fast as they are you don't get a lot of time to engage.

And on top of that those positions are locations where the dimensional bleed can make them die permanently.
So if they do manage to activate a Hell Pit....if someone drops a nuke on it every demon or devil in the area dies forever.

Yes and not only are they forced to defend these huge obvious things but within the zone of influance they die the true death. How long once demons and devils figure that out are they going to actually bother putting up strong defenses that are neccessary. Demons/devils in general are more than a bit cowardly in their own way and I am not sure if there are that many that are selfless enough/afraid of their bosses enough to stand and fight to protect a hell pit once word gets out if you die there you are dead dead dead. I am guessing at first sight of a real attack coming in at one half of them break off and flee back to hell or away from the hell pit and the rest mill around trying to decide if they want to stay and maybe die for good or wait till their bosses attention is turned and run like hell too.

[Alrik Vas]

So.is there like a shortage of evil shifters suddenly?

[eliakon]

So.is there like a shortage of evil shifters suddenly?

Well since the Demons and Deevils don't have a huge number of Shifters on their forces......It's not much of an issue.
Neither side is going to contract to mortals to control their troops to defend their pits.
Although they may be amused by having a shifter summon and bind forces from the other side and use them for stuff.

[Alrik Vas]

What I mean is, a shifter at a nexus can do a lot.of damage. Like...a lot. If these demons or deevils can get allegiance from one, two, or better yet a cabal of them, they could summon an army themselves without a pit. In a place like England especially where there's so much forest and not a huge population, you'd think it would happen more often.

[eliakon]

What I mean is, a shifter at a nexus can do a lot.of damage. Like...a lot. If these demons or deevils can get allegiance from one, two, or better yet a cabal of them, they could summon an army themselves without a pit. In a place like England especially where there's so much forest and not a huge population, you'd think it would happen more often.

There are actually a TON of better ways to do this than these pits. And honestly, the only reason I can see that the pits even exist is so that there can be a super complicated evil doomsday weapon for the PCs to heroically stop in the nick of time....and if the PCs fail well some one else was able to stop it (like its that hard) so the GM doesn't have to explain what happened to the world.

[Alrik Vas]

Righto, just making sure it was the gimmick.

[kaid]

So.is there like a shortage of evil shifters suddenly?

Getting small groups of demons summoned without hell pits is not really the issue. Many demons themselves are adept dimensional teleporters and rifts is not exactly hard to find a opening to enter. To be a true danger though they need multiple hell pits open and active. That is the only way for them to really crank through massive armies of demons/devils + equipment.

[kaid]

Righto, just making sure it was the gimmick.

Its not a gimmick. The hell pits when fully operational are pathways for thousands to tens of thousands of demons to pass through in a short period of time. Basically once they are opened up if you have your demonic army staged on the other side waiting for the portal to open you can flood through entire demon armies through in an evening. Shifters/summoners at nexus is a good way to bring through initial groups and strike groups but not really a way you could lay siege to a world with enough forces to matter.

Hell pits are basically demon/devils version of pyramids for opening and maintaining dimensional rifts in a stable fashion. Once energized they are direct huge doors to demonic staging areas.

[glitterboy2098]

lets not forget a few other factors..

Shifter summoning spells don't bring specific people unless you know true names. so sure you could summon a demon, but how do you know that you'd getting Hacklimb the obliterator instead of f'r'ed the janitor? Demons are loath to give up their true names, because true names give massive power over them in more ways than just being able to be summoned specifically.

also, the Demon forces are a lot more than just Demons. they now have vehicles, heavy weapons, etc. a whole arsenal of force multipliers for their already powerful strength. and this is on top of the magical weapons and armor they already had been using. a random summoing via shifter certainly will not bring in the big gear they need.. and because you don;t know who your getting, there is no way to be sure that the ones that arrive will come fully equipped with the armor and weapons they need.

could you open a rift on a nexus and enter that way? sure. but rifts of that sort are very hard to control unless you have a very experienced magic user.. and those are not exactly common.

plus there is the issue of control. a shifter is a seperate party. one that likely does not understand the goals of hades, and which is likely to clash with the demon way of doing things. plus that shifter gets tired and need to sleep, eat, do things other than cast all day. which means that unless you have a lot of them Hades would have to conform to the whims of caster, not its own timetables.

further, the shifter is a security risk. they know the location of Hades in the megaverse, and how to get there. which means that if your shifter is captured or decides to leave, he could lead enemies of hades there.

not to mention that most shifters are not going to working with hades because they like Hades. they'll have their own agenda's, one that they intended to further by having a demon army present. odds are they will think the army is present to serve them, not to do its own thing. which means that the conflcit of goals and interests i mentioned earlier will happen faster. and that the Shifter is less likely to try and conform to the schedule hades has.


so kaid is right. the pits are meant to allow full mobilization. think about it like the D-day landings. Shifters are the Higgens boats.. landing smallish groups in one place meant to take a beachhead and secure it for the main deployments. the Pits are the Mulberry harbors.. facilities designed to be placed at the beachhead so that massive amounts of troops and logistics can be feed into the combat theatre of operations.

[eliakon]

So ummmm What about that "Create Deific Portal" ability that every Demon Lord, Deevil Lord and some of the next tier down have?
You know the ones that can be opened to any location they can see through any minions eye, be of 'yes' size, can only be closed by divine intervention (or a thought from the opener), do NOT make mile(s) wide zones where your minions die true death, do not have to open on Ley Lines, do not require oodles of plot devices to power a ritual that can only be done on a solstice?

I sort of think that sounds like a great way

Or for some other options:
-Circle of Dimensional Travel, Create Rift + Permanence Ward
-Create and operate an Astral Realm 'central station' that is programed with the spell Astral Portal

Like I said there are lots of other ways that are easier, less resource intensive, have less 'moving parts', are less easy to foul up, and are just as if not more effective.
But they don't have the same 'feel' as an overly complicated villainous plan that takes thousands of sentiments in sacrifice...as I said. The Hell Pits are there because its cool.

[Alrik Vas]

Exactly. They were used as a tool for the conflict, ignoring other pre-existing avenues to accomplish the goal. There's nothing wrong with it from an adventure point of view, but it's not impossible at all that this couldn't happen another way.

I mean, the Calgary rift is like the St. Louis arch, but with no massive CS force suppressing what comes out.

[Axelmania]

Fomorions and Blood Druids seem like possible demon allies. Dyvalians would probably try to recruit the common folk to help like with CCW.

Let's be honest here. The MW would roll all over and crush England. First the islands underpopulated, second they have no "large" armies and lastly there tech level isn't the greatest. If the MW can threaten NA and the CS/large kingdoms what chance does England have?

Camelot seems small but until we know clear limits on how many major or minor life essences that Zazshan can make or how many tectonic entities he can control it doesn't seem right to count him out of this.

England has NGR tech, Nexus Knights use Triax ion pulse rifles. Market Street in New Camelot sells Triad and power armor and rail guns and jet packs. What more do you need?