Meanwhile, back at the table...

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:51 pm

GM: "Okay, folks, you've got an hour before the caravan arrives. You're near enough to the ley line to use it while you wait."
Player 1: "My borg doesn't care."
GM: "No, of course not."
Player 2: "My mystic knight will charge up, just in case"
Player 3: (to player 2) "How much damage does your sword do?"
Player 2: (to player 3) "My katana does 3d6SDC, the flaming sword does 4d6MD"
Player 3: "If you help me make the PPE batteries required, I can make you a scroll of Enchant Weapon: Minor with enough PPE to permanently enchant the weapon of your choice"
Player 2: "So I could make the katana do 6d6MD?"
Player 3: "Yup. But get the borg to read the scroll since permanently enchanting a weapon permanently reduces the caster's PPE base by 2d4. He won't care, but you might"
Player 2: "Right. What do you get out of it?"
Player 3: "I'll keep the PPE batteries"
Player 2: "Sounds good to me"
GM: "Okay, you need 1100 PPE to make a scroll of permanent enchant weapon. If your characters provide 500 PPE, you'll need 600 PPE from PPE batteries. A new battery can hold 50 PPE, so you'll need to make 12 batteries and 600 PPE to charge them up."
Player 3: "The mystic knight can draw twice the normal amount of PPE from a ley line, so 20 PPE per melee. My temporal wizard can draw 10 PPE per melee directly and 10 ISP each melee. With my Noro helmet, that's equivalent to 20 ISP which can get me 8 more PPE per melee using Restore PPE, so 18 PPE each melee total for me. 38 PPE between the two of us"
GM: "500 divided by 38 is slightly more than 13, so every 14th melee you'll be able to cast Talisman to create an empty PPE battery. That's an empty battery every 3 and a half minutes. It'll take you 42 minutes to make 12 batteries. 4 more minutes to charge them all. and then another 3.5 minutes to charge yourselves to create the scroll"
Player 3: "50 minutes total"
Player 2: "Wait, how much time do we have?"
GM: "About an hour"
Player 3: "Perfect. We'll make your scroll and still have time to refill the PPE batteries"
GM: "Okay, you complete the scroll and recharge the PPE batteries before you see the caravan in the distance. Do you read the scroll?"
Player 2: "Borg reads the scroll for me"
Player 1: "What? What do I get out of it?"
Player 2: "I charge your e-clips. You owe me"
Player 1: "Oh yeah, sure. The borg reads the scroll...reduce my PPE by...4..."
GM: "Just make it a 1, I won't let you have a negative PPE base. Next time you guys do this, whomever reads the scroll will have to have a PPE base greater than 1. House rule."
Player 3: "Do we still have a couple of minutes before the caravan arrives?"
GM: "Sure"
Player 3: "Okay. I look for a somewhat hidden area to cast a long-term dimensional envelope."
GM: "there's a small obscured area between a large rock and another large rock if you go a little ways down the hill"
Player 3: "Perfect, I cast a long term dimensional portal between the rocks. I go inside, lay a piece of parchment on the floor and write "AA" on it in large letters. Now we can dimensional portal back to dimension "AA" any time we want access to a rural ley line."
GM: "You don't have enough PPE batteries to cast dimensional portal without access to a ley line"
Player 3: "the envelope lasts 20 years per level, so I have plenty of time to make more PPE batteries"
GM: "Fair enough. The caravan arrives a couple of minutes after you complete the dimensional envelope. The guy who recruited you recognizes you and waves for you to join the caravan..."

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:32 pm

I love this. That's about how our games went when I played a Temporal Wizard and we had a Shifter in the group, too. What's missing though is the time spent doing all the math that they just casually talk about.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:39 pm

Kinda curious what level the two mages are since they had 500 PPE between them. (Or did that include each mage over-charging themselves with the ley line?)

Also curious if they used the "freely given PPE" rule which is only 70% efficient.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:19 pm

Mack wrote:Kinda curious what level the two mages are since they had 500 PPE between them. (Or did that include each mage over-charging themselves with the ley line?)

Each mage over-charged on the ley line, so the sum of their PPE bases only had to be 167. Certainly within the realm of possibility according to canon, almost a given with my house rules (my house rules are very generous when it comes to a character's PPE base).

I had 1st level in mind, but I do not have these characters actually speced out.

Also curious if they used the "freely given PPE" rule which is only 70% efficient.

I only apply the 70% limit if the person donating PPE isn't trained in the use of their PPE. All practitioners of magic can donate up to 100% of their current PPE. That's actually my interpretation of canon, but I can't back that up right now with book references. Even if it's not, that's been the house rule for more than 2 decades in every group I've played with.

--flatline

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:21 pm

Glistam wrote:I love this. That's about how our games went when I played a Temporal Wizard and we had a Shifter in the group, too. What's missing though is the time spent doing all the math that they just casually talk about.

Most of the groups I played with were heavy on math (engineers, physics majors, and, oddly enough, musicians). The math that you read in the original post was about as fast as things would have actually gone in one of those groups. It was a given that in a party of 5, there would be at least 3 graphing calculators at the table.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:12 pm

Oh, and about the math, in all likelihood, the temporal wizard player probably had the numbers already figured out when he made his proposal to the mystic knight player.

At least, if I were the player, I would have.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:29 pm

I want to read this conversation in character, using terms in the setting.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:42 pm

flatline wrote:I had 1st level in mind, but I do not have these characters actually speced out.

A level 1 character had:
-- Level 11: Create Magic Scroll
-- Level 13: Talisman
-- Level 15: Enchant Weapon

:?:

I think your game table is a bit different than any one I've sat at. (I know Temporal Wizards are allowed to chose spells from any level, but I've never seen a GM give that much latitude.)

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:58 pm

Mack wrote:
flatline wrote:I had 1st level in mind, but I do not have these characters actually speced out.

A level 1 character had:
-- Level 11: Create Magic Scroll
-- Level 13: Talisman
-- Level 15: Enchant Weapon

I think your game table is a bit different than any one I've sat at. (I know Temporal Wizards are allowed to chose spells from any level, but I've never seen a GM give that much latitude.)

Temporal Wizard gets four spells from any level to start. That's not an unusual spell selection.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:12 pm

Mack wrote:
flatline wrote:I had 1st level in mind, but I do not have these characters actually speced out.

A level 1 character had:
-- Level 11: Create Magic Scroll
-- Level 13: Talisman
-- Level 15: Enchant Weapon

I think your game table is a bit different than any one I've sat at. (I know Temporal Wizards are allowed to chose spells from any level, but I've never seen a GM give that much latitude.)

I figure in a game where folks routinely start with multi-million-credit equipment, there's no reason why a magic user shouldn't be able to start with a similarly valuable spell list. The GMs I've played with have always had a similar view. It saddens me to think that not every player has had as charmed an existence as I have.

--flatline

Killer Cyborg · Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:54 pm

flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:
flatline wrote:I had 1st level in mind, but I do not have these characters actually speced out.

A level 1 character had:
-- Level 11: Create Magic Scroll
-- Level 13: Talisman
-- Level 15: Enchant Weapon

I think your game table is a bit different than any one I've sat at. (I know Temporal Wizards are allowed to chose spells from any level, but I've never seen a GM give that much latitude.)

I figure in a game where folks routinely start with multi-million-credit equipment, there's no reason why a magic user shouldn't be able to start with a similarly valuable spell list. The GMs I've played with have always had a similar view. It saddens me to think that not every player has had as charmed an existence as I have.

--flatline

I suppose that "years-long training in warping reality to conform to your will" has little material value?

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:31 am

Killer Cyborg wrote:I suppose that "years-long training in warping reality to conform to your will" has little material value?

Only in its potential and that potential is expressed through spells. Without spells, it's not worth anything except as part of the character's back-story.

Pre-RUE, high level spells required teamwork and planning to be able to use due to their high PPE costs (hence the singular importance of Talisman). Energy Sphere changed that a little, being able to temporarily hold 3x your base changed that a lot, but the revamping of ley lines in RUE turned it all on its head. Now two characters can do in 50 minutes what might have taken a whole team weeks or months to accomplish.

I'm still exploring the implications to the setting. That was actually the inspiration for the original post, although now that I've started this thread, I may go through my notes and try to capture some of the more interesting or nostalgic scenes from around the table. And I invite you and others to do the same.

--flatline

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:10 am

The worst implication, to me, is that with all these new spells and rules it made rituals worthless. I had to completely reconsider the system for how mages draw P.P.E. from other sources and then also take a closer look at rituals before I was ultimately satisfied.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:30 am

Alrik Vas wrote:I want to read this conversation in character, using terms in the setting.

Well, magic users must be keenly aware of how much PPE they have, how much each spell costs, and how quickly it can be replenished from a ley line, so that part of the conversation probably wouldn't have been much different.

The open question is how aware characters are of how much damage particular weapons do. It might not have been obvious to the characters that an enchanted katana would be more damaging than the flaming sword, for example. Even so, I expect the Mystic Knight would have been interested in the proposal anyways, so the conversation might not have changed much in that regard, either.

--flatline

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:02 am

flatline wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:I want to read this conversation in character, using terms in the setting.

Well, magic users must be keenly aware of how much PPE they have, how much each spell costs, and how quickly it can be replenished from a ley line, so that part of the conversation probably wouldn't have been much different.

The open question is how aware characters are of how much damage particular weapons do. It might not have been obvious to the characters that an enchanted katana would be more damaging than the flaming sword, for example. Even so, I expect the Mystic Knight would have been interested in the proposal anyways, so the conversation might not have changed much in that regard, either.

--flatline

I feel like it could have gone something like this:

Upon arriving at the agreed upon rendezvous point the party of three companions discovered they still had about an hour before the caravan they intend to meet arrived. As they pondered what to do, the two mages could feel the comforting feeling of magical power emanating from a nearby ley-line and suffusing the area with its power.

"Can you feel that?" The Mystic Knight asked, sitting down and laying back against a tree. "The energy from the ley-line can reach us here. I think I'll take this opportunity to just bask in it and soak it up."

The 'Borg just grunted and shrugged in response. She couldn't care any less about all this mystic mumbo-jumbo and went about her own business, making sure the area they were waiting at was safe. The Temporal Wizard, however, suddenly grinned with an idea.

"Tell me again about your melee weapons," The Temporal Wizard directed to the Mystic Knight.

Lazily, eyes half-closed, she replied "I have a flaming sword - you know, the Techno-Wizard kind that will cut through modern armor. I also carry a katana sword but it would be little use against high tech or supernatural threats. I carry it because I like it for the intimidation value against other mortals." She closed her eyes and grinned at the thoughts that went through her mind. They went way beyond intimidation with the weapon.

The Temporal Wizard nodded, as if this was the answer she expected. "What if I told you I could make you a magical scroll which would let you enchant that katana you like so much so that it would be useful against supernatural or technological enemies? Or, another melee weapon - it wouldn't have to be the katana."

"I would ask, 'What's in it for you?'"

"That would be my payment to you for helping me make some magical talismen to store magical energy. Using that scroll could drain your magical reserves, though, but I think we could convince our 'Borg friend to read the scroll. It's not like she cares about her magical reserves anyway."

The Mystic Knight thought about this. "So I help you make these talismen... batteries for you and in return, you'll make me this scroll?"

"Yes, that's right." The Temporal Wizard smiled and waited for her response. She tried not to show it, but she needed her help. This wasn't something she could do alone and she didn't know when she'd get another opportunity like this. Se resisted the urge to nervously tap her foot. Time was precious if they were to do this before the caravan arrived but if she let on how much this meant to her, who knew how much more the Mystic Knight would demand in payment?

"Okay, Sounds good to me," the Mystic Knight finally responded. She jumped up onto her feet and walked over to the Temporal Wizard. "Where do we start?"

The Temporal Wizard went to work setting out the objects she intended to enchant, including a blank piece of paper for the scroll. "Just keep drawing in that magical energy. Hold as much as you can. Once you don't think you can hold anymore let me know, and I'll combine that energy with my own to enchant the talismen."

"Fine. It should only take a couple of minutes. I can do that pretty fast."

The Temporal Wizard and the Mystic Knight both began to meditate, drawing in energy. The Temporal Wizard also used an otherdimensional psychic device that allowed her to almost match the speed with which the Mystic Knight could take the energy naturally. The 'Borg just rolled her eyes at her two companions as she finished her perimeter survey. Once she was satisfied they were safe for the time being she loaded up an old pre-Rifts novel onto her H.U.D. and continued from where she left off. In no time at all she was back in a world fifty shades greyer and easily able to ignore the two mages and their blathering.

The Techno Wizard and the Mystic Knight worked like they were on an assembly line. It took about fifty minutes for the pair of them to enchant the talismen, fill the talismen with energy, make the scroll, and re-fill the talismen. The Temporal Wizard looked at the finished talismen and scroll and smiled, pleased at the results. She began to pick up and put away these talismen in a specially prepared dimensional pocket.

The Mystic Knight would never admit it but she was a bit impressed. These were seriously powerful spells the Temporal Wizard was casually throwing around here. She made a mental note of these capabilities the Wizard had shown. They were allies for now, but who knew what the future held? Off in the distance she could just start to make out the caravan they were waiting for. They were still about ten minutes away.

The Mystic Knight picked up her scroll, rolled it up and walked over to the seemingly still 'Borg. She knew the 'Borg did that sometimes - just stood there as if powered down or something. She didn't know why, and didn't really care. She tapped her on the shoulder with the rolled up parchment and said, "Read this scroll for me."

The 'Borg sighed inwardly and bookmarked her place in the book. As she saved the file she took note of the caravan off in the distance, zooming in and checking that nothing appeared amiss with them. Satisfied, she turned to the Mystic Knight. "What? What do I get out of it?"

The Mystic Knight tapped the rolled-up parchment against one of the 'Borg's holstered weapons. "I charge your e-clips. You owe me."

"Oh yeah, sure," The 'Borg replied. She didn't really care. Something was said earlier about losing magical energy? She played back through the saved video log of the conversations they had and found that part. This will make me lose magical energy? She thought. Good riddance. She read the scroll out loud while the Mystic Knight pulled out her katana and held it in front of the 'Borg, as if presenting it to her. When the 'Borg finished reading the scroll the katana glowed briefly, to the Mystic Knight's delight. The 'Borg however suddenly felt... exhausted... in a way she hadn't felt for a very long time. Her bio-comp registered no physical issues, and the feeling lessened to a dull, lingering fatigue that remained with her. The 'Borg suddenly regretted being party to their magical madness. "I don't think I can ever do this again for you. I don't care how much I owe you." The Mystic Knight just shrugged, entranced with her new toy.

The Temporal Wizard looked off in the distance and noticed the caravan for the first time. She asked her companions, "Do you think we still have a couple of minutes before the caravan arrives?"

The 'Borg looked back at the caravan and ran some numbers in her internal calculator. "At least," she replied.

"Okay," the Temporal Wizard said. She began looking around for a somewhat hidden area. She found what she was looking for a little ways away, down a hill: a small, obscured area between two large rocks. "Perfect," she said to no-one in particular as she went over there. In front of the rocks she began to gather the energy from the ley-line to use in casting the spell Dimensional Envelope. Upon its completion a small extra-dimensional room was created which she could access from this obscured location. She entered it and found herself within a familiar non-descript room, about ten feet wide, ten feet long, and six feet high. Here she was completely cut off from the world she just left behind, in her own little dimension. She pulled out a piece of parchment and laid it on the floor, then marked it with the letters AA. That done, she left the solitary room and re-entered the reality she had left behind only moments ago.

Returning to the top of the hill, the Temporal Wizard found her companions in much the same state as she had left them. "I've made a small dimensional room that I named AA just down that hill. Now we can use Dimensional Portal to travel back to this spot any time we want access to a rural ley-line."

"You have enough magical energy in those batteries to just create a Dimensional Portal when you don't have access to a ley-line or nexus?" The Mystic Knight tried to ask casually, intending to file this information away with all the other nuggets she'd gleaned in this short time.

"No, but that envelope should last for twenty years. I'll have plenty of time before then to make more talismen and store up the energy in them to allow me to cast a Dimension Portal from anywhere," the Temporal Wizard boasted proudly.

"Good to know," the Mystic Knight muttered. She tried to sheath her Katana but the magical blade instead cut the now-too fragile sheathe in half. "Oh," the Mystic Knight observed. She picked up the sheathe pieces and stared at them in consideration before letting them fall back to the ground. She improvised a sling instead and walked up next to the 'Borg. The Temporal Wizard followed.

The three of them stood together, ready, watching as the caravan slowly approached. Once the guy who recruited them was close enough to recognize the trio he waved a them to join up with the caravan...

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:25 am

flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:
flatline wrote:I had 1st level in mind, but I do not have these characters actually speced out.

A level 1 character had:
-- Level 11: Create Magic Scroll
-- Level 13: Talisman
-- Level 15: Enchant Weapon

I think your game table is a bit different than any one I've sat at. (I know Temporal Wizards are allowed to chose spells from any level, but I've never seen a GM give that much latitude.)

I figure in a game where folks routinely start with multi-million-credit equipment, there's no reason why a magic user shouldn't be able to start with a similarly valuable spell list. The GMs I've played with have always had a similar view. It saddens me to think that not every player has had as charmed an existence as I have.

--flatline

I.don't entirely disagree with your point, flatline, but I'd like to point something out.

They can routinely begin with an excessively expensive gear list, you are correct. However, when that gear becomes damaged repair is an issue. When that gear runs out of juice, it's a bigger issue. If you lack the tools to repair and recharge far from the usual facilities, you really have hunks of metal and circuitry that are only taking up space.

Magic on the other hand, especially in rifts,, is a vastly more renewable resource. PPE comes back on is own, can be tapped from a ley line, person or even a summoned creature. It doesn't fail because of lack of repair. If you look at the costs of having spells cast or the expense of TW items, magic is worth a great deal more in the long run.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:42 am

Glistam, that was great! Thanks for writing that.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:37 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:
flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:
flatline wrote:I had 1st level in mind, but I do not have these characters actually speced out.

A level 1 character had:
-- Level 11: Create Magic Scroll
-- Level 13: Talisman
-- Level 15: Enchant Weapon

I think your game table is a bit different than any one I've sat at. (I know Temporal Wizards are allowed to chose spells from any level, but I've never seen a GM give that much latitude.)

I figure in a game where folks routinely start with multi-million-credit equipment, there's no reason why a magic user shouldn't be able to start with a similarly valuable spell list. The GMs I've played with have always had a similar view. It saddens me to think that not every player has had as charmed an existence as I have.

--flatline

I.don't entirely disagree with your point, flatline, but I'd like to point something out.

They can routinely begin with an excessively expensive gear list, you are correct. However, when that gear becomes damaged repair is an issue. When that gear runs out of juice, it's a bigger issue. If you lack the tools to repair and recharge far from the usual facilities, you really have hunks of metal and circuitry that are only taking up space.

Magic on the other hand, especially in rifts,, is a vastly more renewable resource. PPE comes back on is own, can be tapped from a ley line, person or even a summoned creature. It doesn't fail because of lack of repair. If you look at the costs of having spells cast or the expense of TW items, magic is worth a great deal more in the long run.

I agree that it's not an apples to apples comparison, but I think it helps to add some perspective.

In a campaign where everyone else is playing body fixers, vagabonds, and city rats, then being limited to spell levels 1-4 is fine, but if the other characters are full conversion borgs, anti-monsters, PA, or other high power classes, then I would not hesitate to select higher level spells.

--flatline

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:03 pm

Something else about this was bothering me, and it finally bubbled up from my subconscious this morning.

Permanently enchanting a weapon has two costs: 1000 PPE and the permanent loss of 2D4 PPE from the creator. In the above description, those two costs were somehow divorced from one another. When the Temporal Wizard created the scroll, he should also have suffered the loss of 2D4 PPE from his base. The 1000 and the 2D4 are inextricably bound together and both would be required to create the scroll.

Having said that, I don't believe what I just described as "the only way it shall ever be..." If it works for a GM to break the two apart at his/her gaming table, who am I to say otherwise?

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:18 pm

Mack wrote:Something else about this was bothering me, and it finally bubbled up from my subconscious this morning.

Permanently enchanting a weapon has two costs: 1000 PPE and the permanent loss of 2D4 PPE from the creator. In the above description, those two costs were somehow divorced from one another. When the Temporal Wizard created the scroll, he should also have suffered the loss of 2D4 PPE from his base. The 1000 and the 2D4 are inextricably bound together and both would be required to create the scroll.

Having said that, I don't believe what I just described as "the only way it shall ever be..." If it works for a GM to break the two apart at his/her gaming table, who am I to say otherwise?

Maybe it's the Nightbane Enchant Weapon spell? That spell permanently empowers a weapon without causing permanent PPE losses (which is certainly better than the Rifts version).

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:23 pm

The 2d4 PPE permanently lost is a price paid by the caster of the spell. The spell is cast when the scroll is read, therefore the caster is the person who reads the scroll, not the person who creates the scroll.

It's possible that this is a house rule based on a misinterpretation of canon.

Edit: let me state more clearly what I think is going on here: the price for casting the spell is 1000 PPE. This PPE is supplied when creating the scroll and is then consumed when the scroll is read and the spell is cast. Losing 2d4 PPE permanently is part of the effect of the spell. Since it is the scroll reader, not the scroll creator, that is casting the spell, it is the scroll reader that suffers the effect of having their PPE base reduced.

Killer Cyborg · Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:27 pm

flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:I suppose that "years-long training in warping reality to conform to your will" has little material value?

Only in its potential and that potential is expressed through spells. Without spells, it's not worth anything except as part of the character's back-story.

Actually, most mage classes do have other abilities as well.
But yes, spells are the majority of it, which is why most mage OCCs do start with spells.
They just don't start with x million credits worth of spells on top of their x y-illion credits worth of training.

As Glistam points out, spells never run out. A first level spell is a spell that you keep for life.

As a GM, I'm careful to not neglect my spellcasters, but I generally keep them by-the-book to start, as far as spells go.
I just make sure that they have plenty of opportunity along the way to learn more spells.

Pre-RUE, high level spells required teamwork and planning to be able to use due to their high PPE costs (hence the singular importance of Talisman). Energy Sphere changed that a little, being able to temporarily hold 3x your base changed that a lot, but the revamping of ley lines in RUE turned it all on its head. Now two characters can do in 50 minutes what might have taken a whole team weeks or months to accomplish.

I'm still exploring the implications to the setting. That was actually the inspiration for the original post, although now that I've started this thread, I may go through my notes and try to capture some of the more interesting or nostalgic scenes from around the table. And I invite you and others to do the same.

--flatline

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:28 pm

Nightmask wrote:
Mack wrote:Something else about this was bothering me, and it finally bubbled up from my subconscious this morning.

Permanently enchanting a weapon has two costs: 1000 PPE and the permanent loss of 2D4 PPE from the creator. In the above description, those two costs were somehow divorced from one another. When the Temporal Wizard created the scroll, he should also have suffered the loss of 2D4 PPE from his base. The 1000 and the 2D4 are inextricably bound together and both would be required to create the scroll.

Having said that, I don't believe what I just described as "the only way it shall ever be..." If it works for a GM to break the two apart at his/her gaming table, who am I to say otherwise?

Maybe it's the Nightbane Enchant Weapon spell? That spell permanently empowers a weapon without causing permanent PPE losses (which is certainly better than the Rifts version).

No, the example used Enchant Weapon (Minor), the Level 15 spell from Federation of Magic and Rifts: Book of Magic. There is some precedent in the books for doing something like this, indicated in the section on Charms in the Nightbane book: Through the Glass Darkly. Whether or not the permanent cost should've been paid by the original caster or the scroll wielder was less important to me than the fact that it was dramatically fun and provided a reason to involve the 'Borg in their magical shenanigans.

But yeah, ultimately "house rules" is probably the answer. And technically the spell has three costs - in addition to the P.P.E. costs the spell is physically exhausting, allowing it to only be able to be cast once every three months. I tried to roll all that into the 'Borg's perspective when I wrote it up in the narrative.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:32 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:
flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:I suppose that "years-long training in warping reality to conform to your will" has little material value?

Only in its potential and that potential is expressed through spells. Without spells, it's not worth anything except as part of the character's back-story.

Actually, most mage classes do have other abilities as well.
But yes, spells are the majority of it, which is why most mage OCCs do start with spells.
They just don't start with x million credits worth of spells on top of their x y-illion credits worth of training.

As Glistam points out, spells never run out. A first level spell is a spell that you keep for life.

As a GM, I'm careful to not neglect my spellcasters, but I generally keep them by-the-book to start, as far as spells go.
I just make sure that they have plenty of opportunity along the way to learn more spells.

Then you're not objecting to a temporal wizard starting with the 3 spells used since, by the book, they are valid starting spells for the temporal wizard. Correct?

--flatline

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:43 pm

not particularly, no. Then again, I tend to object to starting characters having millions of credits worth of gear unless there's some kind of precedent for it. The book allowing something isn't good enough reason for me when I take a step back and look at the big picture.

Killer Cyborg · Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:45 pm

flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:I suppose that "years-long training in warping reality to conform to your will" has little material value?

Only in its potential and that potential is expressed through spells. Without spells, it's not worth anything except as part of the character's back-story.

Actually, most mage classes do have other abilities as well.
But yes, spells are the majority of it, which is why most mage OCCs do start with spells.
They just don't start with x million credits worth of spells on top of their x y-illion credits worth of training.

As Glistam points out, spells never run out. A first level spell is a spell that you keep for life.

As a GM, I'm careful to not neglect my spellcasters, but I generally keep them by-the-book to start, as far as spells go.
I just make sure that they have plenty of opportunity along the way to learn more spells.

Then you're not objecting to a temporal wizard starting with the 3 spells used since, by the book, they are valid starting spells for the temporal wizard. Correct?

--flatline

If it's by-the-book, then it's by-the-book.
:ok:

Killer Cyborg · Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:47 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:not particularly, no. Then again, I tend to object to starting characters having millions of credits worth of gear unless there's some kind of precedent for it. The book allowing something isn't good enough reason for me when I take a step back and look at the big picture.

I'm fine with it... but I take it into the context of the overall party and the adventure/campaign.

A Glitterboy starting off with his suit is fine, if his companions are dragons and mages and such, and if the adventure won't be screwed up by the party having that kind of power level.

It's only if we're running a Davy Crockett kind of adventure, and we've got 1d4+1 Wilderness Scouts and Vagabonds, and somebody wants to play a dragon, GB, or high-powered magic/psychic type, that I have any issue.

Conversely, if most of the party is GBs and Dragons and such, and one guy insists that he wants a Vagabond, I'm okay with that.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:49 pm

flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:I suppose that "years-long training in warping reality to conform to your will" has little material value?

Only in its potential and that potential is expressed through spells. Without spells, it's not worth anything except as part of the character's back-story.

Actually, most mage classes do have other abilities as well.
But yes, spells are the majority of it, which is why most mage OCCs do start with spells.
They just don't start with x million credits worth of spells on top of their x y-illion credits worth of training.

As Glistam points out, spells never run out. A first level spell is a spell that you keep for life.

As a GM, I'm careful to not neglect my spellcasters, but I generally keep them by-the-book to start, as far as spells go.
I just make sure that they have plenty of opportunity along the way to learn more spells.

Then you're not objecting to a temporal wizard starting with the 3 spells used since, by the book, they are valid starting spells for the temporal wizard. Correct?

--flatline

For me, it depends on the scale of the game. For a low powered game, yes I'd object. For a high powered one, not so much. It's relative.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:54 pm

For example my campaign has been running a few years and our GB has lasted the longest, but honestly he's only been in his armor for about half the fights they've been in. Yet characters have never had real issues competing with him even when he's got room to run wild, and sometimes he's been problematic as well.

If you're sneaking, a GB isn't the best hardware to bring, for instance. Even silenced and invisible it still leaves an imprint where ever it goes.

That's just an example, though. If there GM is wise and the players are accepting of the setting and reality both, you can have an effective group even with large disparity between power levels.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:45 pm

Mack wrote:For me, it depends on the scale of the game. For a low powered game, yes I'd object. For a high powered one, not so much. It's relative.

No objection with that. With few exceptions, all our Rifts campaigns were pretty high powered which has almost certainly skewed my perspective.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:00 pm

As I mentioned earlier, my house rules for character generation in general, and PPE base in particular, are pretty generous and result in pretty capable characters. Here's a quick summary of how it works:

Stats: roll stats using whatever rules the players agree on. For a high powered campaign, typically re-roll all 1's and 2's.

ISP: use the maximum possible roll.

PPE: add the OCC dice to the racial dice and assume the maximum possible roll. For example, a human starts with 2d6 and the OCC has 2d6x10 + 20, then assume 12 + 120 + 20 = 152 as your PPE base.

Starting credits: use the maximum possible roll.

If skills or powers give a bonus based on a die roll, assume the maximum possible roll.

As you can see, the house rules are pretty generous.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:18 pm

sorry. thought i was saving a draft and posted instead. wasn't ready.

dragonfett · Unread post by **dragonfett** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:18 pm

I do have a question regarding Dimensional Portal as it's use is more or less described in this thread, where does it say that it can be used to go to specific location based on writing? This had me a bit confused...

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:33 pm

The abilities of the spell Dimensional Portal tend to be firmly in the realm of "ask your GM"
As written it has no size factor, no accuracy factor (which as of DB 7 is relevant), no statistics for the 'something always comes through', and a lot of other stuff that needs to be ruled on by the GM.
It, like many other spells are rather incomplete and are only as useful and easy to use as the GM chooses to make them.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:54 pm

dragonfett wrote:I do have a question regarding Dimensional Portal as it's use is more or less described in this thread, where does it say that it can be used to go to specific location based on writing? This had me a bit confused...

The Temporal Wizard created a dimensional envelope (which he named "AA"). Since the envelope is a dimension unto itself, he can target it via Dimensional Portal which allows you to target any dimension you've previously been to. Naming the dimension and marking it is convenient since every dimensional envelope pretty much looks the same.

Since "AA" is only the size of a walk-in closet, it doesn't matter if the portal connects to the "near" or "far" end of the dimension. Once in dimension "AA", he can exit the dimensional envelope and be at the ley line since that is where the dimensional envelope was anchored.

Did that explanation help?

Axelmania · Unread post by **Axelmania** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:05 pm

I agree with Mack over Flatline, the permanent PPE cost is paid when you made the scroll, not when you read it to cast it later. All PPE costs of the spell are spent when you make the scroll, you can't defer it to later for convenience, that's a house rule.

dragonfett · Unread post by **dragonfett** » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:24 am

flatline wrote:
dragonfett wrote:I do have a question regarding Dimensional Portal as it's use is more or less described in this thread, where does it say that it can be used to go to specific location based on writing? This had me a bit confused...

The Temporal Wizard created a dimensional envelope (which he named "AA"). Since the envelope is a dimension unto itself, he can target it via Dimensional Portal which allows you to target any dimension you've previously been to. Naming the dimension and marking it is convenient since every dimensional envelope pretty much looks the same.

Since "AA" is only the size of a walk-in closet, it doesn't matter if the portal connects to the "near" or "far" end of the dimension. Once in dimension "AA", he can exit the dimensional envelope and be at the ley line since that is where the dimensional envelope was anchored.

Did that explanation help?

I was starting to think that after I posted that reply, but yes it does.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:01 am

Allowing for accurate use of Dimensional Portal has always been our primary use for Dimensional Envelope.

It's a huge oversight to not describe the accuracy of Dimensional Portal in the spell description. Most GMs I've played with will at least put you within 1000 miles of your target destination, but not all.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:57 am

flatline wrote:Allowing for accurate use of Dimensional Portal has always been our primary use for Dimensional Envelope.

It's a huge oversight to not describe the accuracy of Dimensional Portal in the spell description. Most GMs I've played with will at least put you within 1000 miles of your target destination, but not all.

I have always seen/run it the same as Dimensional Teleport
6% per level chance of hitting your target, other wise its random.

I personally also have something come through every time as well. This is how entities get into our world and 1d4 of them can enter on each side of the portal. But a lot of GMs skip that part and of the spell.

Axelmania · Unread post by **Axelmania** » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:17 pm

I don't understand how Envelope makes Portal more accurate, what am I missing?

Colonel_Tetsuya · Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:38 pm

Axelmania wrote:I don't understand how Envelope makes Portal more accurate, what am I missing?

You arent portaling to the main dimension (say, Rifts Earth), which would (depending on GM) be very innaccurate. Youre portalling to "Dimension AA" - a Dimensional Envelope the size of a broom closet. Ergo, it doesnt matter how innacurate the spell is, because Dimension AA is timy. So, you portal to Dimension AA, and then step outside into Rofts Earth, where you left to anchor for Dimension AA.

Ingenious, really, and im adding this to my arsenal.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:40 pm

Axelmania wrote:I don't understand how Envelope makes Portal more accurate, what am I missing?

The game in question appears to not have any chance of the spell failing.
Thus since in this game they will always hit the target dimension someplace they still always end up at the right location.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:00 pm

Axelmania wrote:I don't understand how Envelope makes Portal more accurate, what am I missing?

The spell Dimensional Portal doesn't say how much control you have over the destination, so if your GM is cranky, he can put you on the wrong side of the planet or a different planet or even the vacuum of space if he wants to as long as it's in the dimension you wanted to portal to. Some dimensions are really big.

However, if the dimension is the size of a small room, then the portal can't be hundreds or thousands of miles from where you want. And once you're in the Dimensional Envelope, you can leave it and appear in the location that it's anchored to in whatever dimension you created it from.

That's how you use Dimensional Envelope to use Dimensional Portal without the risk of being far away from where you want to go.

Colonel_Tetsuya · Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:02 pm

eliakon wrote:
Axelmania wrote:I don't understand how Envelope makes Portal more accurate, what am I missing?

The game in question appears to not have any chance of the spell failing.

Since the Rules As Written do not have a chance for the spell to fail, im not sure i see the issue.

Thus since in this game they will always hit the target dimension someplace they still always end up at the right location.

[/quote]

Eh? He explains it pretty well. You're not actually targeting "Rifts Earth" - you're targetting "Dimension AA", which is the size of a large closet. So, even if the spell is wildly innaccurate, you still appear somewhere in the dimension - which is about 12x12.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:01 pm

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Axelmania wrote:I don't understand how Envelope makes Portal more accurate, what am I missing?

The game in question appears to not have any chance of the spell failing.

Since the Rules As Written do not have a chance for the spell to fail, im not sure i see the issue.

[quote="Colonel_Tetsuya"]
It doesn't say you automatically succeed either.
Which is really important since there is the whole 'oops went the wrong place factor' is pretty big, especially considering how DB7 talks about accuracy, and getting to and from worlds.....
all of which is utterly negated if there is no possible chance of failure or error in the spell used.

I also note that the spell says that something always slips through....

But that its fine to say that the negative side is just 'fluff'

*shrugs* Different strokes for different folks

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:36 pm

eliakon wrote:I also note that the spell says that something always slips through....

But that its fine to say that the negative side is just 'fluff'

Entities are great!

Consider that it costs 250 PPE to cast Summon and Control Entity, it only lasts 24 hours per level, only summons a single entity, and it has to be a ritual. But if you find an entity, or some slip through a portal with you, it only costs 80 PPE to cast Control & Enslave Entity, it lasts 48 hours per level, and you can control 2 entities per level.

From my perspective, having entities slip through with me is a bonus!

If you don't want the entities around, having a Talisman of Expel Demons is a pretty good way to get rid of them. They save against an 18 and have to leave for 1d6 hours. And before anyone claims that won't work on Entities, Entities are specifically mentioned as examples of "lesser supernatural beings" in the description of the Constrain Being spell (BoM p115, and other places I'm too lazy to find).

But as I said, I like entities.

Colonel_Tetsuya · Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:43 pm

eliakon wrote:It doesn't say you automatically succeed either.

That isn't how rules work. 'cause if that's your interpretation of how rules work, it also doesn't say that all characters cant fly by shooting rainbows out of their butt. They can't, because the rules dont say they can. If the spell had a chance to fail, it would say so. It doesn't. The spell will always open a portal to the dimension of choice (random, or one you've been too before and are familiar with).

Which is really important since there is the whole 'oops went the wrong place factor' is pretty big, especially considering how DB7 talks about accuracy, and getting to and from worlds.....
all of which is utterly negated if there is no possible chance of failure or error in the spell used.

The two things have nothing to do with each other. The spell doesn't say anything about accuracy, merely that it opens a portal to the desired dimension. It can be anywhere the GM wants it to be in that Dimension. The spell may always work (the portal always opens), but it wont necessarily put you where you want to be.

That's the whole point of Flatline's workaround. The Dimension you're traveling "to" (Dimension AA) is only 12' x 12'. So the GM can put you wherever he wants in that Dimension - its just irrelevant if you're near the far wall or the near wall or the left wall or right wall, since you're never more than 12' from the exit. That's the point.

I also note that the spell says that something always slips through....

Except it doesn't say that. The line you're looking for is: "One of the real dangers of using this magic is that some "thing" unwanted often slips through."

Underline is mine for emphasis.

But that its fine to say that the negative side is just 'fluff'

*shrugs* Different strokes for different folks

Uh, no that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is a clever use of game mechanics (creating your own small pocket dimension to gate back to as needed, that is linked to "home" via its exit portal) to avoid the downfall. Not pretending it doesn't exist. Avoiding it by clever use of other spells.

As to stuff coming through? From where? Dimension AA has no indigenous beings, and unless there is something in the vicinity of me when i create the portal, nothing can come through from the originating side, particularly if i close it when i pass through.

The GM would still technically be correct if he had something "come through" - because the spell says it often happens - but he'd have to pull a reason out of his posterior.

dragonfett · Unread post by **dragonfett** » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:56 pm

To be honest, I think that where the spell mentions that something often slips through, it means something that is in the tartget dimension that the portal is connected to slips through. Since Dimensional Envelope is such a small dimension, it seems unlikely that there would be anything there to slip through in the first place.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:24 am

I don't know what the Author really intended, but in our game we figured that some entities live in the space between dimensions and so any time you punch a hole between dimensions via Dimensional Portal, there's a chance that one or more entities would use that hole to slip into the world at either end of the portal.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:27 pm

And I think that's a good compromise, though honestly it doesn't have to happen. Dimensional beings slipping in for spring break on earth is usually plot driven anyway, not a random nonsense that mucks up the whole game for several sessions.