Hypothetical: What Do You Think Would Happen

[The Beast]

Can you cite a reference where it says that psychics and normal humans can't reproduce together? It was my understanding that psychic humans were just humans with a mutation...

The CS doesn't allow it legally, is what he's saying. Which (is/was) true.

He's asking which book that was written in. I honestly don't recall anything like that either.

SB1, page 12, last sentence on the page, and then continuing into the first paragraph of page 13.

[Proseksword]

Can you cite a reference where it says that psychics and normal humans can't reproduce together? It was my understanding that psychic humans were just humans with a mutation...

The CS doesn't allow it legally, is what he's saying. Which (is/was) true.

He's asking which book that was written in. I honestly don't recall anything like that either.

SB1, page 12, last sentence on the page, and then continuing into the first paragraph of page 13.

Excellent, thanks!

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

You know, i had remembered reading that passage recently, and was literally looking AT THAT PAGE of SB1 not too long ago (to quote the 12% population figure) and didn't even see it.

Some days....

Also, FQ probably threw the stats way off, since FQ's stance was (still is) - here's some cash to start a new life.. now GET OUT. If you stay... you're not a citizen. And well treat you like not a citizen. So leave. Seriously, take the money and leave. Or when you get murdered and rolled into a ditch, there wont even be an investigation.

[dragonfett]

Can you cite a reference where it says that psychics and normal humans can't reproduce together? It was my understanding that psychic humans were just humans with a mutation...

The CS doesn't allow it legally, is what he's saying. Which (is/was) true.

He's asking which book that was written in. I honestly don't recall anything like that either.

SB1, page 12, last sentence on the page, and then continuing into the first paragraph of page 13.

Thanks as well.

[HWalsh]

You know, i had remembered reading that passage recently, and was literally looking AT THAT PAGE of SB1 not too long ago (to quote the 12% population figure) and didn't even see it.

Some days....

Also, FQ probably threw the stats way off, since FQ's stance was (still is) - here's some cash to start a new life.. now GET OUT. If you stay... you're not a citizen. And well treat you like not a citizen. So leave. Seriously, take the money and leave. Or when you get murdered and rolled into a ditch, there wont even be an investigation.

Kinda. That is just the thing, I think there are a lot of players who WANT the CS to be "less evil" than they are according to the lore. So they play them as "less evil" then start to think that they are playing them straight, when they aren't.

There is nothing wrong playing characters different than they are, but you have to own it and accept those changes and differences though.

I think someone, in this thread, insinuated that only "a few" CS establishments ban Psychics.

However RUE pg 139 begs to differ:

"This can be an embarrassing situation as many CS establishments will not allow psychics on the premises."

Not "a few high end" ones, not "some fringe ones" not "a few... "MANY" and it is a big enough deal to be told to the player up front in the beginning of the Psychic OCC's section.

So yeah. The CS treats Psychics like 2nd class citizens at best.

[The Beast]

You know, i had remembered reading that passage recently, and was literally looking AT THAT PAGE of SB1 not too long ago (to quote the 12% population figure) and didn't even see it.

Only reason I could remember it is because back then I used to highlight obscure passages like that.

[Shark_Force]

You know, i had remembered reading that passage recently, and was literally looking AT THAT PAGE of SB1 not too long ago (to quote the 12% population figure) and didn't even see it.

Some days....

Also, FQ probably threw the stats way off, since FQ's stance was (still is) - here's some cash to start a new life.. now GET OUT. If you stay... you're not a citizen. And well treat you like not a citizen. So leave. Seriously, take the money and leave. Or when you get murdered and rolled into a ditch, there wont even be an investigation.

FQ probably doesn't throw it off by *that* much really. i mean, we're presumably looking at official population there (ie not burbs) and when you look at the restrictions on psychic characters (can't have children with non-psychics, so if it's at all genetic there will be a lot fewer, and even when it wasn't illegal people still view psychics as not being real humans). then you have to consider that, even if psychics can get citizenship after waiting for years in the burbs (which seems like it would be much more difficult to say the least), simple things like going to stores or being able to work in a factory are going to frequently be denied to them.

and if i'm not mistaken, it's actually gotten *worse* since that stuff was first written... thanks to the siege on tolkeen, anti-everything sentiment is at an all-time high, such that even places that will tolerate undesirables at all will frequently charge 2-3 times as much (on top of not being able to find a place to work).

so, really, i don't consider it that unlikely that the number would legitimately be as low as 12% for the CS over all, even without free quebec (i mean, seriously, a human supremacist who gets booted out of free quebec is probably just going to move to another coalition state city). again, in terms of official population, not counting the burbs and dog boys.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Well, from the little info in Aftermath, and the stated (and not contradicted) info in CWC and Psyscape, its actually gotten better for loyal psychics, particularly those in service with Psi-Net and Psi-Division or other branches of service (regular army or ISS) - psychics were instrumental in saving hundreds of thousands of troops, particularly Psi-Div troopers, Dog Boys, and Psi-Stalkers. Soldiers returning from war hold them in high esteem and see them as heroes and comrades in arms, and are likely to spread that sentiment to their families and friends ("hey if it wasnt for that sergeant from Psi-Div and his Dog Pack, our entire platoon would be dead! Only reason i made it home!" - we actually see some of that sentiment in the in-character letters in the siege books).

Now, is it going to be an overnight shift? No, but its getting better, and (from Psyscape and CWC) the Propoganda dept is goin to keep pushing it along (its one of Prosek Jrs pet projects).

[HWalsh]

Well, from the little info in Aftermath, and the stated (and not contradicted) info in CWC and Psyscape, its actually gotten better for loyal psychics, particularly those in service with Psi-Net and Psi-Division or other branches of service (regular army or ISS) - psychics were instrumental in saving hundreds of thousands of troops, particularly Psi-Div troopers, Dog Boys, and Psi-Stalkers. Soldiers returning from war hold them in high esteem and see them as heroes and comrades in arms, and are likely to spread that sentiment to their families and friends ("hey if it wasnt for that sergeant from Psi-Div and his Dog Pack, our entire platoon would be dead! Only reason i made it home!" - we actually see some of that sentiment in the in-character letters in the siege books).

Now, is it going to be an overnight shift? No, but its getting better, and (from Psyscape and CWC) the Propoganda dept is goin to keep pushing it along (its one of Prosek Jrs pet projects).

Pretty sure you're incorrect. The CS loves their Dog Boys but they're just Dog Boys, they aren't human. They view Psychics the same way, sort of.

[Axelmania]

Be level 1 Psi-Nullifier, avoid much discrimination since door guards won't sense you coming.

Be level 2, select Electrokinesis. Detect any chip-sensor or psi-scanner devices well before you are in range of them. If you cannot avoid them, use "Manipulate Electric Devices" to make them give negative readings so you look normal. Would need a bound or stalker to know psi is being used.

CS are actively training the class most capable of going undetected as psychics.

the highest ranking military officer still alive takes command. This very well could be the Female General in Lone star.

I could get behind Empress Loni Kashbrook bringing her Texan ways up north. Especially if she and Carol Black become besties. Have Joanne Prosek survive by getting herself kidnapped again. Cue "Deadgirls" comic series.

.I'm thinking the Fed would pray to god that Tolkeen gave them that anti nuke shield before being destroyed (But as the Fed told them to burn in hell when they asked for help.. it's unlikely) BOOOM! The CS takes out one or two magic kingdoms with atomic fire. To show they still have fangs.

Which part of the fed are you talking about? City of Brass is nukeproof due to being in an indestructible castle in another dimension. Stormspire can just teleport away before they hit. Dweomer remains unlocated and has protectors with deific powers. Magestar is too small to waste nukes on.

Thinking someone like New Lazlo or Kingsdale would end up getting chosen.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Well, from the little info in Aftermath, and the stated (and not contradicted) info in CWC and Psyscape, its actually gotten better for loyal psychics, particularly those in service with Psi-Net and Psi-Division or other branches of service (regular army or ISS) - psychics were instrumental in saving hundreds of thousands of troops, particularly Psi-Div troopers, Dog Boys, and Psi-Stalkers. Soldiers returning from war hold them in high esteem and see them as heroes and comrades in arms, and are likely to spread that sentiment to their families and friends ("hey if it wasnt for that sergeant from Psi-Div and his Dog Pack, our entire platoon would be dead! Only reason i made it home!" - we actually see some of that sentiment in the in-character letters in the siege books).

Now, is it going to be an overnight shift? No, but its getting better, and (from Psyscape and CWC) the Propoganda dept is goin to keep pushing it along (its one of Prosek Jrs pet projects).

Pretty sure you're incorrect. The CS loves their Dog Boys but they're just Dog Boys, they aren't human. They view Psychics the same way, sort of.

Read the letters in the Siege books. At one point the viewpoint character colludes with the attatched Dog Boys to scrag their C/O (who is a real Diabolical sumbitch who more than had it coming), and (earlier) writes his wife and kids about how awesome the Psi-stalkers and Dog Boys are and how many lives theyve saved.

I wasnt speaking to he plight of dog boys, though, but rather to Human Psychics. CWC and Psyscape make it clear that Joe Prosek's propoganda dept is pushing the "loyal psychics are self sacrificing heroes" line *hard*, and Aftermath notes in passing that the various Psi-Battalions (now Psi-Division) served with distinction and saved lots of lives.

Like i said, its not an overnight dramatic shift or anything, but Prosek Jr has made it his pet project and hes head of Propoganda.... And hundreds of thousands of soldiers coming home from war are also singing their praises. So, its getting better, and will continue to do so.

An example of what id consider a reasonable hypothetical encounter, for instance:

A number of soldiers and their families are eating at a restraunt that doesnt allow psychics. We know they dont necessarily have signs, just the chip readers. A psychic tries to come in and eat - say, an off-duty Psi-Div, Psi-Net or psychic ISS or Army - and gets stopped at the door by the staff. The soldiers take note, and decide theyre not going to eat there anymore. Maybe they make a scene about it, maybe not... But its a start.

[HWalsh]

Well, from the little info in Aftermath, and the stated (and not contradicted) info in CWC and Psyscape, its actually gotten better for loyal psychics, particularly those in service with Psi-Net and Psi-Division or other branches of service (regular army or ISS) - psychics were instrumental in saving hundreds of thousands of troops, particularly Psi-Div troopers, Dog Boys, and Psi-Stalkers. Soldiers returning from war hold them in high esteem and see them as heroes and comrades in arms, and are likely to spread that sentiment to their families and friends ("hey if it wasnt for that sergeant from Psi-Div and his Dog Pack, our entire platoon would be dead! Only reason i made it home!" - we actually see some of that sentiment in the in-character letters in the siege books).

Now, is it going to be an overnight shift? No, but its getting better, and (from Psyscape and CWC) the Propoganda dept is goin to keep pushing it along (its one of Prosek Jrs pet projects).

Pretty sure you're incorrect. The CS loves their Dog Boys but they're just Dog Boys, they aren't human. They view Psychics the same way, sort of.

Read the letters in the Siege books. At one point the viewpoint character colludes with the attatched Dog Boys to scrag their C/O (who is a real Diabolical sumbitch who more than had it coming), and (earlier) writes his wife and kids about how awesome the Psi-stalkers and Dog Boys are and how many lives theyve saved.

I wasnt speaking to he plight of dog boys, though, but rather to Human Psychics. CWC and Psyscape make it clear that Joe Prosek's propoganda dept is pushing the "loyal psychics are self sacrificing heroes" line *hard*, and Aftermath notes in passing that the various Psi-Battalions (now Psi-Division) served with distinction and saved lots of lives.

Like i said, its not an overnight dramatic shift or anything, but Prosek Jr has made it his pet project and hes head of Propoganda.... And hundreds of thousands of soldiers coming home from war are also singing their praises. So, its getting better, and will continue to do so.

An example of what id consider a reasonable hypothetical encounter, for instance:

A number of soldiers and their families are eating at a restraunt that doesnt allow psychics. We know they dont necessarily have signs, just the chip readers. A psychic tries to come in and eat - say, an off-duty Psi-Div, Psi-Net or psychic ISS or Army - and gets stopped at the door by the staff. The soldiers take note, and decide theyre not going to eat there anymore. Maybe they make a scene about it, maybe not... But its a start.

I wish that was how things worked, but... You don't know racists. I have had more than my share of interactions with them but I'll use more public examples...

There is a long history of minorities serving in Wars with distinction. Be they of race, orientation, or even sex. I mean "long history" of it. The problem is that, when they get back, things don't change.

Things don't change because even the people they served with, generally, accept, "That's how things are" or "That's how things are supposed to be."

It takes decades for change to happen. Way longer of a time jump than Palladium has ever done. Realistically the kind of changes you're expecting took, in the real world, around 25-30 years and that wasn't under a racist regime that denied education and free speech.

I know from your posts that you don't like the CS really being seen as bad guys but... They are. If they change, then they change, but don't expect the Psychic situation in the CS to change before 135 PA anything less is unrealistic.

Also... RUE states clearly that all businesses have the Anti-Psi scanners. All of them.

[Shark_Force]

it says many, not all. that said, if random people are paranoid enough that many of them have scanners in their home, well... i can't imagine that represents psychics being popular.

furthermore, psi-division is tiny. even if they are recognized as heroes (and many of them are also dog boys as i recall), that doesn't mean they're recognized as heroic *humans* (the dog boys aren't... and sure, people feel affectionate towards them, but they're not about to start worrying about whether the dog boys deserve to be indoctrinated as slaves from birth and sent off to die for their master's whims any time soon).

and it's also a drop in the bucket. twelve percent of the CS population is over 1.5 million people. psi-division is how many people, many of which aren't even regular humans but human mutants and dog boys? well, gosh, at this rate it should only be a few thousand years before you can be a regular psychic and not be treated like scum. if that's progress, it's glacial progress.

[HWalsh]

it says many, not all. that said, if random people are paranoid enough that many of them have scanners in their home, well... i can't imagine that represents psychics being popular.

furthermore, psi-division is tiny. even if they are recognized as heroes (and many of them are also dog boys as i recall), that doesn't mean they're recognized as heroic *humans* (the dog boys aren't... and sure, people feel affectionate towards them, but they're not about to start worrying about whether the dog boys deserve to be indoctrinated as slaves from birth and sent off to die for their master's whims any time soon).

and it's also a drop in the bucket. twelve percent of the CS population is over 1.5 million people. psi-division is how many people, many of which aren't even regular humans but human mutants and dog boys? well, gosh, at this rate it should only be a few thousand years before you can be a regular psychic and not be treated like scum. if that's progress, it's glacial progress.

You are correct, I was mis-remembering the "all" part.

It says:
"Psi-Scanner mechanisms are located at all government facilities, at most industrial complexes, and even at many businesses, stores, restaurants, and private homes."

Which, yeah, the point is that this kind of thing is very common.

[HWalsh]

I think that there is a disconnect that people are having with the CS. Kevin clearly wrote them taking the worst examples of humanity in mind...

The inspiration for them are groups like the Nazis and other racist groups. There are clear parallels. They are literally all of the bad parts of human history rolled up into a ball.

The treatment of the psychics is a nod to the racism practiced in the US, and especially the South, following the civil war. Especially the laws against Psychics and "Humans" mating? That is basically the interracial relationship parallel. Human psychics are basically a stand in for interracial humans actually, hence the line of them not being, "real humans." The Psi-Stalkers? That is a nod to the attitudes that were prevalent regarding the Native Americans. The Dog Boys? They represent a slave race that is bred to serve and are taught that it is their "place" to do so.

That is simply the CS. That is what they are. No sugar coating, no drinking the kool-aid. This doesn't mean that they are 100% evil. They will totally risk their lives to protect "humanity." ... As long as that humanity meets a very specific definition that they happen to use... Namely human, as opposed to humanoid, from Rifts Earth, who don't practice magic, and who aren't psychic. Due to the fact that they use lies and propaganda though, that doesn't make everyone evil in the CS, it just means that the "Good People" in the CS have bought the lies. They have been duped. Which, by the narrative, makes good people in the CS even more tragic.

That having been said (and to bring this back onto point) even if the CS capital was destroyed I don't think that it would change much of the beliefs of the CS citizens. So I think even if it did break up as we have discussed the broken groups would still have that common ground. Thus attacks against one by forces of "undesirables" would likely cause the others to rally to their aid, so the power block would still effectively be there.

[Proseksword]

It's fairly easy to understand why people are leery of sharing a space with a psychic, though. Empathy? Clairvoyance? Remote Viewing? See Aura? Telepathy? A lot of even the most common psychic powers are highly invasive of people's privacy and easily abusable. Sure, any psychic caught committing a crime is probably toast, but how would anyone catch them? The Coalition's registration system and appearance of keeping a tight leash on psychics is probably all that stands between them and mob justice and populist witch hunts! I'm not all that convinced that most communities in North America are all that more accepting of psychics than the Coalition is. A good paragraph is dedicated in RUE in describing how the most common reaction to psychics is fear and loathing, due to the concern over the way they pose an undetectable threat to those around them. How does a shop owner not know he wasn't just robbed blind, or mind-controlled into giving a discount? Did I go home with that lady because I was drunk or because she manipulated my emotions psychically? The discrimination against psychics might not be fair, but it's pretty readily understandable.

[Proseksword]

I think that there is a disconnect that people are having with the CS. Kevin clearly wrote them taking the worst examples of humanity in mind...

I'm sure I can track down several places where Kevin has written quite clearly that the CS is neither monolithically evil, nor intended to be. Yes, the Coalition is written to be a bigoted, fascist superpower bent on global domination, but it is also intended to be an understandably frightened, desperate nation with the potential to evolve.

Just as the US of slavery and Jim Crow laws has evolved for the better, so too are the CS's prejudices not set in stone - Cyborgs, Juicers & Psychics are slowly gaining greater acceptance. If Joseph Prosek has his way, magic might even make an eventual return to acceptance in the Coalition States! A story is not a single snapshot in time - it is a journey, and evolution of darkness into the light is one of the most interesting of journeys.

[HWalsh]

I think that there is a disconnect that people are having with the CS. Kevin clearly wrote them taking the worst examples of humanity in mind...

I'm sure I can track down several places where Kevin has written quite clearly that the CS is neither monolithically evil, nor intended to be. Yes, the Coalition is written to be a bigoted, fascist superpower bent on global domination, but it is also intended to be an understandably frightened, desperate nation with the potential to evolve.

Just as the US of slavery and Jim Crow laws has evolved for the better, so too are the CS's prejudices not set in stone - Cyborgs, Juicers & Psychics are slowly gaining greater acceptance. If Joseph Prosek has his way, magic might even make an eventual return to acceptance in the Coalition States! A story is not a single snapshot in time - it is a journey, and evolution of darkness into the light is one of the most interesting of journeys.

I don't think acceptance will ever happen. It just isn't in the cards for the CS.

[Proseksword]

I don't think acceptance will ever happen. It just isn't in the cards for the CS.

Well, if you don't believe in the story, then that explains why you don't care for the CS. Regardless of how believable you find the narrative, that is what the narrative has been ever since the storyline began advancing with the Juicer Uprising.

[Nightmask]

I don't think acceptance will ever happen. It just isn't in the cards for the CS.

Well, if you don't believe in the story, then that explains why you don't care for the CS. Regardless of how believable you find the narrative, that is what the narrative has been ever since the storyline began advancing with the Juicer Uprising.

I've never seen anything in the narrative to suggest that the CS wasn't an evil empire or that it had any chance of developing out of that. It's entire nature is set up to purge anyone who even remotely looks like they might want to see more discriminating treatment of non-CS beings particularly non-humans and magic-users. Without eliminating the people in power who aggressively enforce that policy there's no chance of the CS ever stopping its policies of genocide or being anything but an evil empire.

[Proseksword]

The whole Heroes of Humanity preview with page upon page of how the Coalition is going to fight alongside non-humans and magic users and how this is going to inspire whole swathes of Coalition Soldiers to question their propaganda isn't at least a suggestion of that to you? I don't even know what to say.

[HWalsh]

The whole Heroes of Humanity preview with page upon page of how the Coalition is going to fight alongside non-humans and magic users and how this is going to inspire whole swathes of Coalition Soldiers to question their propaganda isn't at least a suggestion of that to you? I don't even know what to say.

Just because you are forced by circumstance to work with enemies doesn't indicate that you are going to switch stances. It could also lead to a revolt and desertion of the CS by the soldiers which could force the CS to become even more strongly anti-non what they consider human.

I could see it, easily, with Prosek's propaganda department:

"Some of you have heard some of our own soldiers talking about how D-Bees and Magic Users aren't as evil as we thought. Yes, it is true, we fought alongside many of them in order to drive the demons out. That was because we had, at the time, a mutual enemy. The enemy of my enemy is not, however, my friend. These magic users, D-bees, and other enemies of humanity have used their dark powers to turn some of your brothers and sisters against us. That is, exactly, why we have been telling you, for years, to not listen to their words. Do not think of these traitors to the Coalition as true traitors. They are victims, victims of mental manipulation by the enemies that wish to see us dead and buried. Enemies who wish to see the Coalition destroyed and her children destroyed as well."

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I wish that was how things worked, but... You don't know racists.

Why thank you for unilaterally declaring 40 years of life experience null and void. I know racists extremely well. I spent several years in southern texas when i was younger, then moved back to MI and lived in places like Pontiac, Flint, and Detroit. Ive also lived in nicer places, (like Ann Arbor, Livonia) and experienced it from all sides. The town i live in now, while nice, still has "DWB" on its list of stoppable offenses (that'd be "Driving While Black").

I have had more than my share of interactions with them but I'll use more public examples...

There is a long history of minorities serving in Wars with distinction. Be they of race, orientation, or even sex. I mean "long history" of it. The problem is that, when they get back, things don't change.

Things don't change because even the people they served with, generally, accept, "That's how things are" or "That's how things are supposed to be."

It takes decades for change to happen. Way longer of a time jump than Palladium has ever done. Realistically the kind of changes you're expecting took, in the real world, around 25-30 years and that wasn't under a racist regime that denied education and free speech.

... the very system you're saying makes it harder, is what is making it easier, because the State, the ever loving, never-wrong, we-get-all-the-truth-from-the-State, is telling them loyal psychics are heroes.

I know from your posts that you don't like the CS really being seen as bad guys but...

Then you dont know anything. Ive never stated anything of the sort, ever, because i firmly believe the Coalition States, as an entity, ARE the bad guys. In fact, their domination of the continent is one of the glaring inconsistencies i point out often with the setting as a whole. (How about them Burbs, literally right outside Chi-town, that are full of dangerous D-bees and supernatural creatures... that the CS just... lets exist. Makes sense, right?)

They are.

You may want to read Kev's half a dozen treatises on the CS. The States, as an entity, are the bad guys. The leadership definitely is. The average citizen and soldier.... not so much.

If they change, then they change, but don't expect the Psychic situation in the CS to change before 135 PA anything less is unrealistic.

Also... RUE states clearly that all businesses have the Anti-Psi scanners. All of them.

"All businesses have scanners" != "All businesses ban psychics".

There's a (good) reason for wanting to know if someone comes in to do business with you and can say, read your mind or potentially influence you.

furthermore, psi-division is tiny.

Sure, but not all (or even a large fraction) of serving "loyal" psychics are in Psi-Div. Psi-Div is basically psychic special forces. There are tons of regular psychics who serve in the line, or work for the ISS. There's also Psi-Net personnel, which heavily outnumber Psi-Div. They run the PRP system.

even if they are recognized as heroes (and many of them are also dog boys as i recall),

Nope, zero Dog Boys in Psi-Div or Psi-Net. Human psychics only (no Psi-stalkers either); Now, Dog Boys are often assigned to work with Psi-Div or Psi-Net (seconded from regular Army or ISS duty) when called in, but they are not part of Psi-Div or Psi-Net. Psi-Net and Psi-Div are the ones who have to hunt down rogue Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers.

that doesn't mean they're recognized as heroic *humans*

The Propoganda ministry certainly recognizes them as such.

(the dog boys aren't... and sure, people feel affectionate towards them, but they're not about to start worrying about whether the dog boys deserve to be indoctrinated as slaves from birth and sent off to die for their master's whims any time soon).

and it's also a drop in the bucket. twelve percent of the CS population is over 1.5 million people. psi-division is how many people, many of which aren't even regular humans but human mutants and dog boys?

Again.. none. All humans.

well, gosh, at this rate it should only be a few thousand years before you can be a regular psychic and not be treated like scum. if that's progress, it's glacial progress.

Except that in this society (with its obvious parallel to Nazi germany.... propoganda goes a loooooonng way. Sentiments can change in just a few years.

Propaganda, especially in a State like the CS, where citizens believe that the state literally NEVER lies, is extremely strong.

Joseph will be Emperor one day. He's been behind almost every policy shift - allowing Juicers en masse (with his ally Cabot), mass-deployment of Cyborgs, raising psychics up as heroes... and he deliberately works with the Vanguard. Especially as thousands or millions of CS troops see how powerful a tool magic is in the upcoming Minion War, if the Propaganda ministry starts to shift its tone...

By the time Joe is Emperor, Psychics could easily have equal rights and the Vanguard could be officially sanctioned.

[Bill]

For a total of 1 in 4 people in the population being psionic in the CS.

SB1 says 12%. of the CS population is psychics. The reason for there being less psychics in the CS probably largely revolve around the fact that they are treated as second class citizens, so a lot of them choose to leave.

12% is still an awful lot of people, though. (SB1 also included (at the time) Free Quebec, so the stats might be off slightly, since FQ throw Psychics out on their asses)

That passage (SB1, p12) indicates that up to an additional 5% of CS citizens may have unreported psychic abilities as well, making it 17%. The term citizen is also important to note. Burb residents are not considered citizens, and have not been counted. Which is especially important because children disowned for being mutants or displaying psychic powers are likely to end up there. I don't think it's a stretch to say that 25% of humans in the setting are psychic.

The final sentence on that page is where the Coalition's prohibition on intercourse between psychics and normal humans appears too. The revised book may have removed it, but it appears in my copy of the original.

[eliakon]

I will accept that the Heroes of Humanity books are making a canon change to the CS attitudes...
...when the books are in print, available, and the entire text can be read.
Because the preview copy had stuff that made them seem MORE evil, not less.
IF the actual book goes and changes the CS from the current Evil Empire, then sure I will accept that the story has them change. Otherwise any claims that the CS is not really as evil as portrayed in the books, and that they are changing/redeeming/getting better/whatever are just personal headcanon and nothing more.

[Pepsi Jedi]

well, i can't find the "can't have children with non-psychics" statement in my core books. must be somewhere else.

Such as your imagination. I'm not trying to be mean. We're all often party to this type of.... misremembering. Game has been out for 25 years. Some of us have literally been playing for decades. We read something 5.. 10... 15... literally 25 years ago... and then as time goes on as play happens we 'add to it' in our minds and think that stuff is in the book, that's not.

You may have read that 10% or fewer of the CS population are chipped and persecuted against and just added the other part due to RP, or a conversation witha buddy 20 years ago that told you the non breeding thing was in the book too and it just got 'added in' to what you ""Knew"" About the CS. Even though it was wrong.

that said, it's pretty easy to find the part where they something like 85+ percent of the population supported having them chipped because they don't consider them to be real humans, and let's face it that doesn't exactly imply people are going to react favourably towards breeding with them.

Isn't it written as the PR campaign implied they were less than human and -dangerous- and that's why people supposedly voted for it? Again, it's the CS. you really think they use actual numbers in their polls or just make them up to justify their actions? ANd I'm not a CS hater but if you were given the illusion of voting and were told that 80 some percent of peoppe backed this thing up (What ever that thing was) it'd be easier to accept. yes?

as to it being rare for a psychic to be stopped... well, i doubt that. all government buildings,

How often do you go into a government building other than a post office? And as the majority of the CS (In canon. It's stupid but it's there) can't read, they're not going to be sending or receiving alot of mail. In a strict militaristic government how often do you think THEY are running into governmental buildings? Especially if you need a two man escourt to do so? I'm going to say, hardly ever.

most industrial complexes (good luck getting work, by the way),

Not that hard. Join the military. Or just don't work in a factory. More over just because industrial complexes have sensors to detect psychics, it doens't mean they can't come in. Once you're known you just hold up your ID card or let them scan your neck and you walk on through security.

and many businesses, stores, restaurants, and *private homes* have the scanners, and further explicitly states that many establishments do not allow those psychics in.

Scanners arne't laser turrents. They ping when someone comes in that's a psychic. So the people can keep an eye on them. Again less than half the psychics that ARE psychic are even chipped. Only the major ones. Of those... well they're Major psychics. Non psychcis aren't going to be spitting on them too openly... because.. well... they're major psychics. lol they could retalite with out even lifting a finger and non psychics would never know how. It's not like they get to see the psychic's character sheet.

you're acting like the scanners are some how lethal death traps or slam down steel security doors. The way it reads it sets off a chime or sends the owner a text alerting him that the person that just walked in is psychic. Nothing more.

And I pointed out that some establishments not allowing htem in is fine, but you can't excize a full FOURTH... 25% of your population in business and expect to stay in business. So other than ultra high end exclusive places you won't see it terribly often. Sure some rednecky sort of dive places might spit on the floor and sneer "We don't serve yo kind 'roun' ere' " and tell them they can't come in, but by and large businesses and such aren't cutting out 1 in 4 people off the top of all revenue and profit.

so, uhhh... actually, it is pretty typical for a restaurant to just turn down psychics, per the books. page 138-139 in my copy of the RUE goes over how psychics are treated in the CS, and it isn't good.

No. It says that some don't let them in, but again if you look at it most places couldn't possibly afford to cut 25% of people away at the door (Even though they can only detect 10% of them) and many would fear doign so even if they could. Psychics could just wait out side. You step out after being a bigot that night and suddely you get the urge to step into traffic and well.. one less bigoted store owner. Etc.

It's not like they're 'Just' rednecks telling people of color they can't eat in this bar. These are people that can control aspects of the world with their minds. You spit on them and you might get that urge to jump infront of the train later and never know how or why. or a telekinetic push infront of that train or dozens of other negative thigns from the psychic section.

Do such elite exclusive places exist? Sure, they'll be the same ones that don't let in the 'common' folk or what have you. But they'll be fewer than some people are implying.

Other than being feared by some (or even many) Which is... frankly not that strange of a reaction, and the major ones 10% or fewer, being chipped, it's not that bad. They're still in the CS and such. if they have to put up with idiot bigots now and then (I'm sure thye do) They would do so, and more than a few would likely use those powers to make the bigots pay for their actions. I know I would.

[HWalsh]

well, i can't find the "can't have children with non-psychics" statement in my core books. must be somewhere else.

Such as your imagination. I'm not trying to be mean. We're all often party to this type of.... misremembering. Game has been out for 25 years. Some of us have literally been playing for decades. We read something 5.. 10... 15... literally 25 years ago... and then as time goes on as play happens we 'add to it' in our minds and think that stuff is in the book, that's not.

You may have read that 10% or fewer of the CS population are chipped and persecuted against and just added the other part due to RP, or a conversation witha buddy 20 years ago that told you the non breeding thing was in the book too and it just got 'added in' to what you ""Knew"" About the CS. Even though it was wrong.

that said, it's pretty easy to find the part where they something like 85+ percent of the population supported having them chipped because they don't consider them to be real humans, and let's face it that doesn't exactly imply people are going to react favourably towards breeding with them.

Isn't it written as the PR campaign implied they were less than human and -dangerous- and that's why people supposedly voted for it? Again, it's the CS. you really think they use actual numbers in their polls or just make them up to justify their actions? ANd I'm not a CS hater but if you were given the illusion of voting and were told that 80 some percent of peoppe backed this thing up (What ever that thing was) it'd be easier to accept. yes?

as to it being rare for a psychic to be stopped... well, i doubt that. all government buildings,

How often do you go into a government building other than a post office? And as the majority of the CS (In canon. It's stupid but it's there) can't read, they're not going to be sending or receiving alot of mail. In a strict militaristic government how often do you think THEY are running into governmental buildings? Especially if you need a two man escourt to do so? I'm going to say, hardly ever.

most industrial complexes (good luck getting work, by the way),

Not that hard. Join the military. Or just don't work in a factory. More over just because industrial complexes have sensors to detect psychics, it doens't mean they can't come in. Once you're known you just hold up your ID card or let them scan your neck and you walk on through security.

and many businesses, stores, restaurants, and *private homes* have the scanners, and further explicitly states that many establishments do not allow those psychics in.

Scanners arne't laser turrents. They ping when someone comes in that's a psychic. So the people can keep an eye on them. Again less than half the psychics that ARE psychic are even chipped. Only the major ones. Of those... well they're Major psychics. Non psychcis aren't going to be spitting on them too openly... because.. well... they're major psychics. lol they could retalite with out even lifting a finger and non psychics would never know how. It's not like they get to see the psychic's character sheet.

you're acting like the scanners are some how lethal death traps or slam down steel security doors. The way it reads it sets off a chime or sends the owner a text alerting him that the person that just walked in is psychic. Nothing more.

And I pointed out that some establishments not allowing htem in is fine, but you can't excize a full FOURTH... 25% of your population in business and expect to stay in business. So other than ultra high end exclusive places you won't see it terribly often. Sure some rednecky sort of dive places might spit on the floor and sneer "We don't serve yo kind 'roun' ere' " and tell them they can't come in, but by and large businesses and such aren't cutting out 1 in 4 people off the top of all revenue and profit.

so, uhhh... actually, it is pretty typical for a restaurant to just turn down psychics, per the books. page 138-139 in my copy of the RUE goes over how psychics are treated in the CS, and it isn't good.

No. It says that some don't let them in, but again if you look at it most places couldn't possibly afford to cut 25% of people away at the door (Even though they can only detect 10% of them) and many would fear doign so even if they could. Psychics could just wait out side. You step out after being a bigot that night and suddely you get the urge to step into traffic and well.. one less bigoted store owner. Etc.

It's not like they're 'Just' rednecks telling people of color they can't eat in this bar. These are people that can control aspects of the world with their minds. You spit on them and you might get that urge to jump infront of the train later and never know how or why. or a telekinetic push infront of that train or dozens of other negative thigns from the psychic section.

Do such elite exclusive places exist? Sure, they'll be the same ones that don't let in the 'common' folk or what have you. But they'll be fewer than some people are implying.

Other than being feared by some (or even many) Which is... frankly not that strange of a reaction, and the major ones 10% or fewer, being chipped, it's not that bad. They're still in the CS and such. if they have to put up with idiot bigots now and then (I'm sure thye do) They would do so, and more than a few would likely use those powers to make the bigots pay for their actions. I know I would.

Sorry Pepsi, not buying it. If they intended for only a very small number of places to refuse to allow entry they'd say it. That is wholly created in your imagination. They said, "many" in the book. That is at least 40% likely higher.

[HWalsh]

I cannot fathom why there is an argument saying that the CS can't have many businesses discriminate against psychics due to economic theory.

Why?

Because NOTHING in the CS works if they had to follow economic theory. The CS can't afford a military of the size they have. The CS can't afford to PRODUCE the Power Armor and Robot Vehicles and Robots that they do. The CS can't afford the genetic labs.

So, if they can do that, then businesses can work while discriminating against psychics.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think all of you forget one important fact
Someone has clones of someone, so the fact the original was killed has no real negative impact on the CS." Karl Prosek "addresses the remaining CS states from Lone Star Complex, with a moving speech touching on elements are mourning leader, husband ,father and grandfather. So some civil war isn't going happen, CS isn't going to fall apart. The mad doctor will be running the show and his puppet will be the star.

[Proseksword]

Ooooooooohh, that's right! Nice one, Mech-Viper!

[eliakon]

I think all of you forget one important fact
Someone has clones of someone, so the fact the original was killed has no real negative impact on the CS." Karl Prosek "addresses the remaining CS states from Lone Star Complex, with a moving speech touching on elements are mourning leader, husband ,father and grandfather. So some civil war isn't going happen, CS isn't going to fall apart. The mad doctor will be running the show and his puppet will be the star.

With out more information than we have though we don't know if those clones will 'work' for this.
Especially since the CS is pretty paranoid about imposters (they are one of the few groups to know about the Auto-G for instance) and I would suspect that there are passwords, code phrases and the like. What about fingerprints and retina scans? Those are not based on your genes...
Even voiceprints would be influenced by knowledge...
These clones are nice... But with out a canon "this will work" its not more than just a possibility (in my game for instance I wouldn't let it fly for a second, WAY to many problems)

[eliakon]

I cannot fathom why there is an argument saying that the CS can't have many businesses discriminate against psychics due to economic theory.

Why?

Because NOTHING in the CS works if they had to follow economic theory. The CS can't afford a military of the size they have. The CS can't afford to PRODUCE the Power Armor and Robot Vehicles and Robots that they do. The CS can't afford the genetic labs.

So, if they can do that, then businesses can work while discriminating against psychics.

Because there are a LOT of CS fans in these forums. Who spend a lot of time arguing that the books are wrong and that the CS is not nearly as bad as written because otherwise their favorite group would have to be evil villains, and they don't want to be supporting evil. So the solution is to just make the books wrong, change the canon to match their head canon and presto now the CS is not evil.

[Library Ogre]

I think all of you forget one important fact
Someone has clones of someone, so the fact the original was killed has no real negative impact on the CS." Karl Prosek "addresses the remaining CS states from Lone Star Complex, with a moving speech touching on elements are mourning leader, husband ,father and grandfather. So some civil war isn't going happen, CS isn't going to fall apart. The mad doctor will be running the show and his puppet will be the star.

Interesting possibility. Secret visit to the Lone Star complex, lucky to be alive, etc., etc..

I think you'd run into problems of knowledge and such, though... he doesn't have true doppleganger technology, just "genetic replication".

[Bill]

I think all of you forget one important fact
Someone has clones of someone, so the fact the original was killed has no real negative impact on the CS." Karl Prosek "addresses the remaining CS states from Lone Star Complex, with a moving speech touching on elements are mourning leader, husband ,father and grandfather. So some civil war isn't going happen, CS isn't going to fall apart. The mad doctor will be running the show and his puppet will be the star.

With out more information than we have though we don't know if those clones will 'work' for this.
Especially since the CS is pretty paranoid about imposters (they are one of the few groups to know about the Auto-G for instance) and I would suspect that there are passwords, code phrases and the like. What about fingerprints and retina scans? Those are not based on your genes...
Even voiceprints would be influenced by knowledge...
These clones are nice... But with out a canon "this will work" its not more than just a possibility (in my game for instance I wouldn't let it fly for a second, WAY to many problems)

Clonesek™ leading half the Coalition to reunite the whole of it against allegations that he is an impostor could be a good story.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think all of you forget one important fact
Someone has clones of someone, so the fact the original was killed has no real negative impact on the CS." Karl Prosek "addresses the remaining CS states from Lone Star Complex, with a moving speech touching on elements are mourning leader, husband ,father and grandfather. So some civil war isn't going happen, CS isn't going to fall apart. The mad doctor will be running the show and his puppet will be the star.

With out more information than we have though we don't know if those clones will 'work' for this.
Especially since the CS is pretty paranoid about imposters (they are one of the few groups to know about the Auto-G for instance) and I would suspect that there are passwords, code phrases and the like. What about fingerprints and retina scans? Those are not based on your genes...
Even voiceprints would be influenced by knowledge...
These clones are nice... But with out a canon "this will work" its not more than just a possibility (in my game for instance I wouldn't let it fly for a second, WAY to many problems)

Clones of Bradford are already canon, so Prosek clones wouldn't to far out of canon since the adventure that has the Bradford clones asks if there are clones of Karl and Joseph out there to.
So if Bradford (top CS scientist/ doctor , high of lone star complex)shows up with with his "old friend Karl" with memory loss, side effect of that horrible attack, no one in the CS is going to accuse him of being a imposter , they going to be happy their beloved leader is alive even if with a memory loss, and don't think Bradford wouldn't take safe guards to protect his star.

[HWalsh]

I cannot fathom why there is an argument saying that the CS can't have many businesses discriminate against psychics due to economic theory.

Why?

Because NOTHING in the CS works if they had to follow economic theory. The CS can't afford a military of the size they have. The CS can't afford to PRODUCE the Power Armor and Robot Vehicles and Robots that they do. The CS can't afford the genetic labs.

So, if they can do that, then businesses can work while discriminating against psychics.

Because there are a LOT of CS fans in these forums. Who spend a lot of time arguing that the books are wrong and that the CS is not nearly as bad as written because otherwise their favorite group would have to be evil villains, and they don't want to be supporting evil. So the solution is to just make the books wrong, change the canon to match their head canon and presto now the CS is not evil.

Arrg. That is just silly. I love the Joker. He's still evil. Nothing wrong with liking a fictional evil character or group.

The CS is, hands down, evil.

The economic theory is just weird. The 1.2 million New Style SAMAS at only 100,000 a pop is $120,000,000,000,000. The CS did this in 4 years. Even at 1/4 this price that's still $30,000,000,000,000 we also know that 1 credit does equal roughly $1 based on prices of modern items.

Even at the ludicrously low cost of 1/4 value then spread out over 4 years that's $7,500,000,000,000 just for the SAMAS.

To contrast the US Military, the hands down, most expensive military in world history operates *everything* on only $625,000,000,000 per year.

So if the CS can operate running at well over 10 times the spending *for one item* than the real world US military, the military that spends more than the top 5 closest nations added together, spends in a year in total... Then, yes, CS businesses can shirk 25% of the CS citizens and make it just fine.

For the same reason the CS has an insane military... Because the books say so.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think all of you forget one important fact
Someone has clones of someone, so the fact the original was killed has no real negative impact on the CS." Karl Prosek "addresses the remaining CS states from Lone Star Complex, with a moving speech touching on elements are mourning leader, husband ,father and grandfather. So some civil war isn't going happen, CS isn't going to fall apart. The mad doctor will be running the show and his puppet will be the star.

Interesting possibility. Secret visit to the Lone Star complex, lucky to be alive, etc., etc..

I think you'd run into problems of knowledge and such, though... he doesn't have true doppleganger technology, just "genetic replication".

Honestly you could see a number of clones as "Karl's mental and physical well being" improves.
And his reappearance could be raw video of a search and rescue team video footage every bit of it staged, sure some will realize it's not the real Karl but then again they will go along with the idea for the "good"of the coalition. Secret pacts and all that fun stuff.

[Proseksword]

Corollary: How do we know the current Karl Prosek isn't already a clone? It'd certainly explain why no-one has ever been able to assassinate him!

[Nightmask]

I cannot fathom why there is an argument saying that the CS can't have many businesses discriminate against psychics due to economic theory.

Why?

Because NOTHING in the CS works if they had to follow economic theory. The CS can't afford a military of the size they have. The CS can't afford to PRODUCE the Power Armor and Robot Vehicles and Robots that they do. The CS can't afford the genetic labs.

So, if they can do that, then businesses can work while discriminating against psychics.

All you have to do is look at RL discrimination to see why something like an ideal model in economic theory doesn't play out ideally. In the bad old days of 'coloreds only' discrimination almost every white business refused to provide service to blacks because they didn't care at all about losing out on that money as long as they could look down on blacks and deny them what they felt only whites should have. Psychics in the CS are close to being the new blacks when it comes to discrimination.

[Pepsi Jedi]

well, i can't find the "can't have children with non-psychics" statement in my core books. must be somewhere else.

Such as your imagination. I'm not trying to be mean. We're all often party to this type of.... misremembering. Game has been out for 25 years. Some of us have literally been playing for decades. We read something 5.. 10... 15... literally 25 years ago... and then as time goes on as play happens we 'add to it' in our minds and think that stuff is in the book, that's not.

You may have read that 10% or fewer of the CS population are chipped and persecuted against and just added the other part due to RP, or a conversation witha buddy 20 years ago that told you the non breeding thing was in the book too and it just got 'added in' to what you ""Knew"" About the CS. Even though it was wrong.

that said, it's pretty easy to find the part where they something like 85+ percent of the population supported having them chipped because they don't consider them to be real humans, and let's face it that doesn't exactly imply people are going to react favourably towards breeding with them.

Isn't it written as the PR campaign implied they were less than human and -dangerous- and that's why people supposedly voted for it? Again, it's the CS. you really think they use actual numbers in their polls or just make them up to justify their actions? ANd I'm not a CS hater but if you were given the illusion of voting and were told that 80 some percent of peoppe backed this thing up (What ever that thing was) it'd be easier to accept. yes?

as to it being rare for a psychic to be stopped... well, i doubt that. all government buildings,

How often do you go into a government building other than a post office? And as the majority of the CS (In canon. It's stupid but it's there) can't read, they're not going to be sending or receiving alot of mail. In a strict militaristic government how often do you think THEY are running into governmental buildings? Especially if you need a two man escourt to do so? I'm going to say, hardly ever.

most industrial complexes (good luck getting work, by the way),

Not that hard. Join the military. Or just don't work in a factory. More over just because industrial complexes have sensors to detect psychics, it doens't mean they can't come in. Once you're known you just hold up your ID card or let them scan your neck and you walk on through security.

and many businesses, stores, restaurants, and *private homes* have the scanners, and further explicitly states that many establishments do not allow those psychics in.

Scanners arne't laser turrents. They ping when someone comes in that's a psychic. So the people can keep an eye on them. Again less than half the psychics that ARE psychic are even chipped. Only the major ones. Of those... well they're Major psychics. Non psychcis aren't going to be spitting on them too openly... because.. well... they're major psychics. lol they could retalite with out even lifting a finger and non psychics would never know how. It's not like they get to see the psychic's character sheet.

you're acting like the scanners are some how lethal death traps or slam down steel security doors. The way it reads it sets off a chime or sends the owner a text alerting him that the person that just walked in is psychic. Nothing more.

And I pointed out that some establishments not allowing htem in is fine, but you can't excize a full FOURTH... 25% of your population in business and expect to stay in business. So other than ultra high end exclusive places you won't see it terribly often. Sure some rednecky sort of dive places might spit on the floor and sneer "We don't serve yo kind 'roun' ere' " and tell them they can't come in, but by and large businesses and such aren't cutting out 1 in 4 people off the top of all revenue and profit.

so, uhhh... actually, it is pretty typical for a restaurant to just turn down psychics, per the books. page 138-139 in my copy of the RUE goes over how psychics are treated in the CS, and it isn't good.

No. It says that some don't let them in, but again if you look at it most places couldn't possibly afford to cut 25% of people away at the door (Even though they can only detect 10% of them) and many would fear doign so even if they could. Psychics could just wait out side. You step out after being a bigot that night and suddely you get the urge to step into traffic and well.. one less bigoted store owner. Etc.

It's not like they're 'Just' rednecks telling people of color they can't eat in this bar. These are people that can control aspects of the world with their minds. You spit on them and you might get that urge to jump infront of the train later and never know how or why. or a telekinetic push infront of that train or dozens of other negative thigns from the psychic section.

Do such elite exclusive places exist? Sure, they'll be the same ones that don't let in the 'common' folk or what have you. But they'll be fewer than some people are implying.

Other than being feared by some (or even many) Which is... frankly not that strange of a reaction, and the major ones 10% or fewer, being chipped, it's not that bad. They're still in the CS and such. if they have to put up with idiot bigots now and then (I'm sure thye do) They would do so, and more than a few would likely use those powers to make the bigots pay for their actions. I know I would.

Sorry Pepsi, not buying it. If they intended for only a very small number of places to refuse to allow entry they'd say it. That is wholly created in your imagination. They said, "many" in the book. That is at least 40% likely higher.

Many is subjective. "MOST" would be signifigant. Many could be anything more than a 'few', but less than most. That's not in my imagination. They didn't say 'Almost half' which 40% would be.

[HWalsh]

I cannot fathom why there is an argument saying that the CS can't have many businesses discriminate against psychics due to economic theory.

Why?

Because NOTHING in the CS works if they had to follow economic theory. The CS can't afford a military of the size they have. The CS can't afford to PRODUCE the Power Armor and Robot Vehicles and Robots that they do. The CS can't afford the genetic labs.

So, if they can do that, then businesses can work while discriminating against psychics.

All you have to do is look at RL discrimination to see why something like an ideal model in economic theory doesn't play out ideally. In the bad old days of 'coloreds only' discrimination almost every white business refused to provide service to blacks because they didn't care at all about losing out on that money as long as they could look down on blacks and deny them what they felt only whites should have. Psychics in the CS are close to being the new blacks when it comes to discrimination.

No, because the CS does discriminate against Psychics. They discriminate casually with most businesses forbidding Psychics on the property. While the argument is that, "Such a policy wouldn't work economically" simply doesn't hold water when we look at the fact that nothing the CS does works economically. Their military is too large, their military is too expensive, there aren't enough tax payers in the CS to handle it. It is literally not possible for anything in the CS to function. The CS has a smaller population than the United States, and the United States couldn't come up with the money the CS does if they taxed every person at 99.9%

CS supporters, in this case, have no problem with that leap of faith. That doesn't break their immersion.

However...

CS businesses not wanting to serve Psychics by and on the whole, a policy which (actually historically is perfectly viable to be honest) is far more believable than somehow taxing every CS citizen 1785% (and yes, in order for the CS to function they would have to literally take in 1685% more assuming similar levels of wages, which we can based on the value of the credit than a CS citizen can possibly earn) to maintain a military that is so large that it actually makes up over 50% of the total CS population is more viable?

The books are clear. Most CS businesses don't serve Psychics. Period. No economic theory argument can really beat that because it is what the book says. If we want to try to base arguments around economics, again, then the CS instantly collapses under the fact that it is an unsustainable model. They literally spend upwards of 2000% more than the real world US does on their military with 1/10 the population. Our Military costs us 62% of our budget in real life. The CS somehow spends twenty times more than they do, working with 1/10 of the resources. How do they do that? It is a work of fiction. How do businesses survive while being incredibly openly racist? It is a work of fiction.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I cannot fathom why there is an argument saying that the CS can't have many businesses discriminate against psychics due to economic theory.

Why?

Because NOTHING in the CS works if they had to follow economic theory. The CS can't afford a military of the size they have. The CS can't afford to PRODUCE the Power Armor and Robot Vehicles and Robots that they do. The CS can't afford the genetic labs.

So, if they can do that, then businesses can work while discriminating against psychics.

Because there are a LOT of CS fans in these forums. Who spend a lot of time arguing that the books are wrong and that the CS is not nearly as bad as written because otherwise their favorite group would have to be evil villains, and they don't want to be supporting evil. So the solution is to just make the books wrong, change the canon to match their head canon and presto now the CS is not evil.

1) Noone said they 'can't' discriminate. It was pointed out that it wouldn't be huge numbers of them doing it, as most businesses can't afford to roughly cut out 25% of a population of customers. and
2) Eliakon. Side handed insults aside, it doesn't change the fact, that arguing "Many aspects don't make sense, so trying to make this make sense is wrong"

Claiming that Palladium does silly/stupid things with the economy in general is not a 'reason' that one can't apply commonsense and thought to it in specific.

[HWalsh]

Many is subjective. "MOST" would be signifigant. Many could be anything more than a 'few', but less than most. That's not in my imagination. They didn't say 'Almost half' which 40% would be.

Many is also a heck of a lot more than, "Just a few exclusive shops" as you asserted either. Many has to be at least statistically enough to have an impact on the average Psychic or it wouldn't have been mentioned.

If you want to say, "Almost half" would be called out, then I call anything less than 1/4 as not being listed as, "Almost a quarter."

I'd possibly be able to even haggle at 33% about "one third" but I am, by no means, going to allow "many" to be trivialized as "only a few exclusive stores that are normally exclusive anyway."

[Pepsi Jedi]

I cannot fathom why there is an argument saying that the CS can't have many businesses discriminate against psychics due to economic theory.

Why?

Because NOTHING in the CS works if they had to follow economic theory. The CS can't afford a military of the size they have. The CS can't afford to PRODUCE the Power Armor and Robot Vehicles and Robots that they do. The CS can't afford the genetic labs.

So, if they can do that, then businesses can work while discriminating against psychics.

All you have to do is look at RL discrimination to see why something like an ideal model in economic theory doesn't play out ideally. In the bad old days of 'coloreds only' discrimination almost every white business refused to provide service to blacks because they didn't care at all about losing out on that money as long as they could look down on blacks and deny them what they felt only whites should have. Psychics in the CS are close to being the new blacks when it comes to discrimination.

At that time, black people didn't make up a quarter of the entire population and weren't able to throw you infront of trains or into traffic with their minds.

[HWalsh]

I cannot fathom why there is an argument saying that the CS can't have many businesses discriminate against psychics due to economic theory.

Why?

Because NOTHING in the CS works if they had to follow economic theory. The CS can't afford a military of the size they have. The CS can't afford to PRODUCE the Power Armor and Robot Vehicles and Robots that they do. The CS can't afford the genetic labs.

So, if they can do that, then businesses can work while discriminating against psychics.

All you have to do is look at RL discrimination to see why something like an ideal model in economic theory doesn't play out ideally. In the bad old days of 'coloreds only' discrimination almost every white business refused to provide service to blacks because they didn't care at all about losing out on that money as long as they could look down on blacks and deny them what they felt only whites should have. Psychics in the CS are close to being the new blacks when it comes to discrimination.

At that time, black people didn't make up a quarter of the entire population and weren't able to throw you infront of trains or into traffic with their minds.

Neither can most Psychics in Rifts who could become citizens of the CS.

By that logic then the CS wouldn't discriminate against Psychics at all because they would all be terrified of them and they'd be the ruling class. I'm willing to bet at least one Psychic has tried that, and willing to bet that they got pinched by Dog Boys and their psychic brains got splattered all over very non-Psychic walls for it. In fact, it is EXACTLY for that reason that most businesses don't allow Psychics and why they have all the scanners, because people are scared of them. If they can kill you for discriminating then they can also make you give them stuff, or walk in and kill you anyway, so there is literally no reason not to discriminate because murderers are going to try to murder anyway.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I cannot fathom why there is an argument saying that the CS can't have many businesses discriminate against psychics due to economic theory.

Why?

Because NOTHING in the CS works if they had to follow economic theory. The CS can't afford a military of the size they have. The CS can't afford to PRODUCE the Power Armor and Robot Vehicles and Robots that they do. The CS can't afford the genetic labs.

So, if they can do that, then businesses can work while discriminating against psychics.

All you have to do is look at RL discrimination to see why something like an ideal model in economic theory doesn't play out ideally. In the bad old days of 'coloreds only' discrimination almost every white business refused to provide service to blacks because they didn't care at all about losing out on that money as long as they could look down on blacks and deny them what they felt only whites should have. Psychics in the CS are close to being the new blacks when it comes to discrimination.

At that time, black people didn't make up a quarter of the entire population and weren't able to throw you infront of trains or into traffic with their minds.

Neither can most Psychics in Rifts who could become citizens of the CS.

10% are major level psychics. Even minor level psychis still get powers. Just not as many. Why couldn't many of the 10% Significantly attack those that would persecute them? Remember 25% have psy powers and 10% are major psychics.

By that logic then the CS wouldn't discriminate against Psychics at all because they would all be terrified of them and they'd be the ruling class.

The ruling class is militaristic, and likely has psychics IN it. Hard to escape the 1 in 4 number unless you willingly ignore it. "Registered" doesn't mean 'exiled'. The CS military has huge psionic forces at it's disposal. They USE them.

I'm willing to bet at least one Psychic has tried that, and willing to bet that they got pinched by Dog Boys and their psychic brains got splattered all over very non-Psychic walls for it.

I'm sure more than one. Lots more than one. No doubt. That's why when you grow up in the CS and you know about Dog boys and see them around, you don't use your psionic powers to disipline the bigots then. It's not like some jerkwad who is so bigoted against psionics that they would spit on them and wouldn't let them in their .... *Shrugs* hotdog shop, is going to keep psionic dogboys on beck and call (As they're military they couldn't if they wanted to). So the Psionic just has to sit out side and wait. Look up and down the street. When there's no BIPEDAL DOGS or MUTANTS WITH CHALK WHITE SKIN AND NO HAIR about, THEN use their powers. That'd take people about 3 seconds to figure out.

Some of them might get caught too, but it's not a hard work around.

In fact, it is EXACTLY for that reason that most businesses don't allow Psychics and why they have all the scanners, because people are scared of them. If they can kill you for discriminating then they can also make you give them stuff, or walk in and kill you anyway, so there is literally no reason not to discriminate because murderers are going to try to murder anyway.

Really? The ability to do something means it's going to happen?

Your thought process is that they're all murderers anyway so it's ok to discriminate against them as they will kill you for discriminating against them so you might as well as they'll kill you anyway?

That's pretty circular and illogical.

The scanners aren't laser turrents. if the door chime goes off there's nothing stopping that PSychc from walking on in, except non psychcis. Sure if there's a problem and there's dog boys near by it might end badly for the psychic, but if not, and the non psychic starts a problem with a MAJOR PSYCHIC (as the minor ones aren't tagged) that's going to be pretty stupid.

I'm pointing out that economically it's not valid for 'MOST' places to disalow them. Some? Sure, some will take the hit but the book didn't even say most. It said "many' which is more than a few and less than most. It's also going to be pretty stupid to do so publicly, as the only people you'd weed out, are... -major psychics- whom are the sorts of people you're not gonna wanna spit on if you're -not- one of them.

[HWalsh]

That's pretty circular and illogical.

You mean like discrimination and phobias? The kind that the CS are built on.

[eliakon]

We know that the CS discriminates against psychics because the books say they do.
Period. Dot. Full stop.
Claiming that they don't requires a book citation proving that this policy has changed or it is just a personal fan head canon.

And no, some argument that it is economically unviable isn't valid unless you can provide a book citation about the economic structure of the CS, and how it works. Otherwise your argument follows the form of "If and only if my unsupported assumption of X is true then Y might be true, there for Y is true" which isn't proof...it barely qualifies as a pet theory.

[Shark_Force]

well, i can't find the "can't have children with non-psychics" statement in my core books. must be somewhere else.

Such as your imagination. I'm not trying to be mean. We're all often party to this type of.... misremembering. Game has been out for 25 years. Some of us have literally been playing for decades. We read something 5.. 10... 15... literally 25 years ago... and then as time goes on as play happens we 'add to it' in our minds and think that stuff is in the book, that's not.

or, you know, that's actually been located by multiple different people and posted in this thread since then. and those of us who said it are exactly right.

that's also a possibility.

and in fact, several other points you've automatically denied in that post have also been addressed, including explicit statements right in the setting books that support them.

i have people that can cite which book and page they're reading this information from in this thread on one side, and you making claims that we're imagining it or remembering it wrong (and denying the words that come straight out of the provided source material as inaccurate). when you make a post like this, where you have quite evidently not gotten informed before answering, it seriously damages any credibility you may have had. additionally, it is disrespectful to everyone else in the discussion to declare yourself as the ultimate authority above anything else and that everyone else is wrong when you clearly haven't even listened to what those others have to say, let alone put in the work to genuinely speak from a position of expertise.

you clearly feel passionate about what you're saying. but it is really hard to treat this or other things you say as having any integrity when you have posts like this staring me in the face.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

That's pretty circular and illogical.

You mean like discrimination and phobias? The kind that the CS are built on.

Actually, their phobias are quite real.

Theyve been preyed upon to exacerbate the situation, but the prejudices the people of the CS have, have a real, legitimate foundation in the reality of Rifts Earth.

Monsters DO exist. Monsters ARE trying to wipe out humanity (and everyone else..). There ARE evil magic users out to get them.

Again, those fears are being manipulated and blow way out of proportion...

but they aren't imaginary.