Hypothetical: What Do You Think Would Happen

[Bill]

There's no benefit to going over the same ground again, gentlemen. Opinions have been expressed on both sides and neither will give ground. I think it would be more beneficial to let the argument go and move on with the discussion of what would happen if Chi-Town (the arcology, not the state) were to be suddenly and inexplicably wiped out. Bearing in mind that it is a hypothetical discussion and not necessarily bound by canon.

[Proseksword]

Plenty of businesses in the Jim Crow South were just fine taking black business but still discriminated against them by making them sit in the back, take their food to go, etc,. Presumably some establishments in the CS are similar. Pepsi Jedi is right that besides a few exclusive clubs, most businesses won't turn away good money, but that doesn't mean that all customers get the same level of service.

As minor psychics aren't even chipped, presumably, they usually aren't discriminated against in public because people don't even know who they are. Major psychics, on the other hand, are probably treated very wearily. People don't usually directly insult people carrying deadly weapons no matter their bigotry or if the law is on their side, and a major psychic might as well be a walking machine gun. A major psychic entering an establishment probably elicits a lot of fearful apologetic groveling, curt sub-standard service, excuses & platitudes regarding how they are unequipped to serve psychics because XYZ, and an insistence that they don't disturb the other customers with their presence.

[Razzinold]

Another angle to consider in all this is what kind of impact, if any, do you think this major event would have on the Universal Credit ?

I know it states in the book that the CS is so powerful that the credit is so strong that it would take them literally ceasing to exist to make them worthless. However, they just lost their major seat of power so what their interest rate would drop, exchange rate, now it's two universal credits for every one of someone else's, or maybe nothing at all since their are so many other CS states ?

[Shark_Force]

this is just getting silly now.

the books *explicitly state* that many places will not allow psychics on the premises.

there is no speculation as to whether or not many business in the CS don't let you in if you're psychic. it is explicitly stated in very clear words that if you are psychic, there are many places where you simply are not welcome and will be tossed out. there is no ambiguity there. there is no room to say "oh, but that couldn't possibly happen because reasons" because we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it DOES happen.

like it or not, the official line on the question of "does the CS discriminate heavily against psychics to the point of not allowing them to come into certain establishments" is "yes, they do". you can homebrew whatever you want, but it's right there in print, very clearly stated. we don't know exactly how many, but unless the great majority of business establishments in the CS are high-end shops/restaurants/etc for the elite only, the fact that *many* businesses have these policies tells us that as a matter of fact, even many of the small businesses do that (if it was only a few exceptionally exclusive businesses, then you wouldn't describe that as many).

they don't let them in but make them sit in the back room out of sight. they don't give them poor service or let them in because they're too afraid. they explicitly do not allow them to come in at all. it isn't something that can reasonably be discussed, and in fact the discussion should have ended the moment the first person told everyone else where to find this information in the rulebook, because it is not even a little bit ambiguous.

[Pepsi Jedi]

We know that the CS discriminates against psychics because the books say they do.
Period. Dot. Full stop.
Claiming that they don't requires a book citation proving that this policy has changed or it is just a personal fan head canon.

And no, some argument that it is economically unviable isn't valid unless you can provide a book citation about the economic structure of the CS, and how it works. Otherwise your argument follows the form of "If and only if my unsupported assumption of X is true then Y might be true, there for Y is true" which isn't proof...it barely qualifies as a pet theory.

No it says that SOME Discriminate. Not all.

I am not saying they don't at all. I've met humans. I know there's some jerks out there. You see um on TV often enough.

I'm pointing out it's not as wide spread and in your face as some people in this thread are trying to make out. If for no other reason than yes, if you've ever taken a business class in your life, you know no restaurant is rolling in 25%+Profit, to the point they can cut off 25% of buisness straight off the top and still do well.

Your claims of not being able to provide book citation about economics is a dodge. It's common sense.

[Pepsi Jedi]

well, i can't find the "can't have children with non-psychics" statement in my core books. must be somewhere else.

Such as your imagination. I'm not trying to be mean. We're all often party to this type of.... misremembering. Game has been out for 25 years. Some of us have literally been playing for decades. We read something 5.. 10... 15... literally 25 years ago... and then as time goes on as play happens we 'add to it' in our minds and think that stuff is in the book, that's not.

or, you know, that's actually been located by multiple different people and posted in this thread since then. and those of us who said it are exactly right.

that's also a possibility.

No. It hasn't. The part about them not being able to breed with humans has not been located or posted. In fact it's been UNABLE to be located. Thus is not exactly right.

and in fact, several other points you've automatically denied in that post have also been addressed, including explicit statements right in the setting books that support them.

There is no statement that you've been able to produce in the books that supports the claim. That's the problem. You've added in 'information' that is NOT found in the books, and you're unable to find it to verify your claim.

i have people that can cite which book and page they're reading this information from in this thread on one side, and you making claims that we're imagining it or remembering it wrong (and denying the words that come straight out of the provided source material as inaccurate).

No. You've yet to produce a page number that says the psychics are not allowed to breed with other humans. THAT is the part you made up. There are no page numbers cited that back this claim.

when you make a post like this, where you have quite evidently not gotten informed before answering, it seriously damages any credibility you may have had.

Not at all. You're trying to dodge your own claim. I'm not saying that Psychics face NO discrimiation. I've pointed out that it's not as hyped up as some are making out and I've disputed yoru claim that they're not allowed to breed with other people. Which has NOT been found in the book.

YOU are trying to say because there's a page saying that SOME psychics are given grief, that your other statement is also true. Which it isn't. You've been unable to produce verification.

And remember. If psychics make up 25% of the population by number... and 15% of them aren't chipped or tattooed that leaves 10% that 'are' of those 'Many' are not allowed in some places, not even 'Most' to hit most you'd need 51% of that 10%, so..5% or more... it doesn't reach "Most" just 'Many" so the total number of people that ARE being denyed service is LESS THAN 5%.

So no. It's not as bad as some people are making out.

additionally, it is disrespectful to everyone else in the discussion to declare yourself as the ultimate authority above anything else and that everyone else is wrong when you clearly haven't even listened to what those others have to say, let alone put in the work to genuinely speak from a position of expertise.

I have listened and I've concluded that with out verification and looking at the numbers, those others speaking are doing so incorrectly. Frankly I don't care if they find that disrespectful. The book doesn't verify their claims.

you clearly feel passionate about what you're saying. but it is really hard to treat this or other things you say as having any integrity when you have posts like this staring me in the face.

The post is true. You might not like it but it's so.

You've read some things on psychcis in the cs. and then you added in your own creation. (The part where you stated they were not allowed to breed with other people) Cited it as fact, said it was in the books. When proven wrong, you've yet to substantiate it and are trying to piggyback it on other information.

My point was that maybe you simply misremembered that part. As we all sometimes do with information 25 years old. If you didn't misremember it, then the other option is that you simply made up a falsehood. Which is otherwise defined as a lie. I choose to hope it's the former. I know I've misremembered things in the past, when I look them up. I admit that I misremembered and or was wrong. It's as simple as that.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's pretty circular and illogical.

You mean like discrimination and phobias? The kind that the CS are built on.

Actually, their phobias are quite real.

Theyve been preyed upon to exacerbate the situation, but the prejudices the people of the CS have, have a real, legitimate foundation in the reality of Rifts Earth.

Monsters DO exist. Monsters ARE trying to wipe out humanity (and everyone else..). There ARE evil magic users out to get them.

Again, those fears are being manipulated and blow way out of proportion...

but they aren't imaginary.

I actually fully agree with that part. I've been pointing it out for years.

[Proseksword]

Sorry, Shark Force, but I think the equivocating began when you started reinterpreting the word "many" to mean "most". Those aren't the same terms.

I agree that the equivocation has gone in both directions in this thread, and many doesn't mean "a few" any more than it means "most", but no amount of dancing around the word "many" is going to give us a clearer indication of whether Mr. Siembieda intended us to read that as 28% or 66% of businesses (Personally, my money is on Mr. Siembieda deliberately being vague so the GM can have it how he wants).

All we can establish is that some ("many") businesses in the Coalition States do bar psychics on the basis of their detection by chip scanners. Anything else is assumption that's not particularly worth arguing about.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Plenty of businesses in the Jim Crow South were just fine taking black business but still discriminated against them by making them sit in the back, take their food to go, etc,. Presumably some establishments in the CS are similar. Pepsi Jedi is right that besides a few exclusive clubs, most businesses won't turn away good money, but that doesn't mean that all customers get the same level of service.

As minor psychics aren't even chipped, presumably, they usually aren't discriminated against in public because people don't even know who they are. Major psychics, on the other hand, are probably treated very wearily. People don't usually directly insult people carrying deadly weapons no matter their bigotry or if the law is on their side, and a major psychic might as well be a walking machine gun. A major psychic entering an establishment probably elicits a lot of fearful apologetic groveling, curt sub-standard service, excuses & platitudes regarding how they are unequipped to serve psychics because XYZ, and an insistence that they don't disturb the other customers with their presence.

Exactly 100% this.

[Proseksword]

@Pepsi-Jedi

"Psionic mutants (and all other mutants) are forbidden, by law, to engage in sexual activity with non-psionics/non-mutants."

RIFTS Sourcebook 1 unrevised, pg.13

[Pepsi Jedi]

this is just getting silly now.

the books *explicitly state* that many places will not allow psychics on the premises.

there is no speculation as to whether or not many business in the CS don't let you in if you're psychic. it is explicitly stated in very clear words that if you are psychic, there are many places where you simply are not welcome and will be tossed out. there is no ambiguity there. there is no room to say "oh, but that couldn't possibly happen because reasons" because we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it DOES happen.

like it or not, the official line on the question of "does the CS discriminate heavily against psychics to the point of not allowing them to come into certain establishments" is "yes, they do". you can homebrew whatever you want, but it's right there in print, very clearly stated. we don't know exactly how many, but unless the great majority of business establishments in the CS are high-end shops/restaurants/etc for the elite only, the fact that *many* businesses have these policies tells us that as a matter of fact, even many of the small businesses do that (if it was only a few exceptionally exclusive businesses, then you wouldn't describe that as many).

they don't let them in but make them sit in the back room out of sight. they don't give them poor service or let them in because they're too afraid. they explicitly do not allow them to come in at all. it isn't something that can reasonably be discussed, and in fact the discussion should have ended the moment the first person told everyone else where to find this information in the rulebook, because it is not even a little bit ambiguous.

No. That's a misrepresentation of the situation.

25% of people are psychic.
only 10% are major psychics. By the book minor psychics (The other 15% are not chipped or marked.

Absolute most that "Could" be turned away in this instance... 10%.

Of the establishements that turn them away it's listed as 'Many'. Not 'most'

To get most you'd need 51% of places. So we know that it's less than half or the sentence would have read "MOST places" turn them away.

So going by the above numbers it has to be less than 5% of the population being turnd away.

Which, while a problem. is a minor problem. Even among psychics (Remember 25% of the population) that 5% represents only one in FIVE.

So.... does it happen? yes. At the rate pointed out above. Less than 1 in 5 psychics are being turned away.

Which would back up the staments in the books. If you have a population of 100 people... and 25 of them are psychic... 10 are chipped and less than half are turned away.. that means... less than 5 people out of that 100 are turned away. 5 might be 'many' but it's not most, and it's surely not as big a problem as some are making out.

5 out of 100 is still a problem. If you're one of those 5. If you choose to go to those choice places that wouldn't allwo you in. if 5% of blacks were denyed serrvice at tacobell it'd be a problem. if 5% of women were denyed service it'd be a problem, but it's not the entire society doing it. The numbers don't back it up.

[Bill]

And it still has nothing to do with the hypothetical destruction of Chi-Town. Reported.

[Pepsi Jedi]

@Pepsi-Jedi

"Psionic mutants (and all other mutants) are forbidden, by law, to engage in sexual activity with non-psionics/non-mutants."

RIFTS Sourcebook 1 unrevised, pg.13

There ya go. A cited source.

*Reads* Interesting. It does say in that book, that psychics are considered mutants and not allowed to breed with others.

The later books have dropped this aspect and harshness, and SB1:Revised has none of it in there.

But that would likely be where people saw it. Good find Proseksword.

As it was purposefully exisized in later books I would say it's no longer held canon, but, it was in a book somewhere at one point. Good find.

[Shark_Force]

oh really, the reference to psychics not being allowed to breed with regular humans wasn't posted multiple times? you're sure about that?

because, signs point to someone making stuff up to fit what they want to believe, and it isn't me.

Can you cite a reference where it says that psychics and normal humans can't reproduce together? It was my understanding that psychic humans were just humans with a mutation...

The CS doesn't allow it legally, is what he's saying. Which (is/was) true.

He's asking which book that was written in. I honestly don't recall anything like that either.

SB1, page 12, last sentence on the page, and then continuing into the first paragraph of page 13.

oh hey look, there's one. and it was quoted by a few other people also.

For a total of 1 in 4 people in the population being psionic in the CS.

SB1 says 12%. of the CS population is psychics. The reason for there being less psychics in the CS probably largely revolve around the fact that they are treated as second class citizens, so a lot of them choose to leave.

12% is still an awful lot of people, though. (SB1 also included (at the time) Free Quebec, so the stats might be off slightly, since FQ throw Psychics out on their asses)

That passage (SB1, p12) indicates that up to an additional 5% of CS citizens may have unreported psychic abilities as well, making it 17%. The term citizen is also important to note. Burb residents are not considered citizens, and have not been counted. Which is especially important because children disowned for being mutants or displaying psychic powers are likely to end up there. I don't think it's a stretch to say that 25% of humans in the setting are psychic.

The final sentence on that page is where the Coalition's prohibition on intercourse between psychics and normal humans appears too. The revised book may have removed it, but it appears in my copy of the original.

oh hey look, there's another. right in this thread. just like i said it was. do i need to put the citation in giant neon flashing lights for you, or do i get to not be called a liar when i say it was posted in the thread now?

as to most, i never said "most". i said many repeatedly in my point. but there is one thing we know about many: it isn't few. it isn't a few exclusive businesses. it isn't a few prejudiced people. it's many. you don't use many to describe a small number. so we have a large enough number that the books went so far as to specifically mention this being what can happen when a sensor goes off. it doesn't say people won't like you when they realize you're psychic, but will let you into their business anyways. it doesn't say they'll make you sit in the back room with poor service. it says that they won't let you into their business, and it uses the word "many" to describe what portion of the businesses do that.

no, it doesn't mean all. stop trying to tell me that i ever said all or most, because i didn't. but if many businesses are doing that, it still means it isn't just a few, because few is not the same as many. any child should be able to tell you that. it isn't uncommon. it isn't rare. it isn't unheard of. many places do it. how much exactly is many? i don't know. but i do know it isn't uncommon, because if it was uncommon, they wouldn't be telling us that many businesses do this, they would be telling us that a few places do it. something like "a few restaurants even go so far as to deny access to psychics", for example... that would tell us that people don't like psychics, but only a few places actually deny access. but that isn't what it says. it says that *many* places deny access. not a few. not a handful. not the most exclusive ones. many.

many may not be a very specific figure, but it *is* very specifically *not* few.

[Proseksword]

I can't take credit, others earlier in the thread found it for me.

Determining how older, OOP books interact with canon with RIFTs is always hazy. I can't blame some folks for assuming it's still canon, but a lot of the information in that section of sourcebook 1 has been superseded, and the correlation of psychics with mutants is indicative of an early description of the RIFTs setting that has fallen by the wayside. Does the absence of the material in the Revised Sourcebook 1 indicate it is invalid, or would it take a source explicitly saying that psychics and humans are allowed to procreate to undo that description?

I do believe it's worth pointing out that World Book 11 has a rather extensive section on the laws of the Coalition States. A prohibition on psychic/non-psychic sexual relations is never mentioned. It also indicates that psychics in the CS often use their powers for hire as consultants, private detectives, bodyguards, and researchers, as well as adventurers.

It goes on to state that "After more than two decades of operation, [Psi-Net] is fairly well received by the population of the Coalition at large. The unit has an excellent record of success and has earned the confidence of the ISS, military, politicians and the average citizen. ......This is in part due to the same propaganda that has promoted the "honest psychics" of Psi-Net "dedicated to making the Coalition States a safe place." & "Psi-Net has also taken steps to protect its members from persecution and strives for greater understanding and acceptance of psychics. Colonel Black, the head of the Psi-Battalion of the Army, and Psi-Net agents have lobbied for laws to protect psychics from unwarranted acts of racism, cruelty or violence by regular CS citizens and soldiers. Emperor Prosek has been surprisingly cooperative.......The psychic is no longer an outsider but a respected member of society whom others value and trust."

I feel it's pretty safe to assume that the passage about it being illegal to procreate with a psychic was deliberately dropped, but without a clear indication from on-high, that's just my personal assessment.

[HWalsh]

No it says that SOME Discriminate. Not all.

Many. Not some. Many.

[HWalsh]

Another angle to consider in all this is what kind of impact, if any, do you think this major event would have on the Universal Credit ?

I know it states in the book that the CS is so powerful that the credit is so strong that it would take them literally ceasing to exist to make them worthless. However, they just lost their major seat of power so what their interest rate would drop, exchange rate, now it's two universal credits for every one of someone else's, or maybe nothing at all since their are so many other CS states ?

I think the credit would take a hit, but not significant enough if one. It depends if the guaranteeing capital was in Chi-Town or not.

If the guaranteeing capital was in Chi-Town there would be a huge economic collapse across the board and North America would fall into recession.

[Shark_Force]

Another angle to consider in all this is what kind of impact, if any, do you think this major event would have on the Universal Credit ?

I know it states in the book that the CS is so powerful that the credit is so strong that it would take them literally ceasing to exist to make them worthless. However, they just lost their major seat of power so what their interest rate would drop, exchange rate, now it's two universal credits for every one of someone else's, or maybe nothing at all since their are so many other CS states ?

I think the credit would take a hit, but not significant enough if one. It depends if the guaranteeing capital was in Chi-Town or not.

If the guaranteeing capital was in Chi-Town there would be a huge economic collapse across the board and North America would fall into recession.

well, chi-town does have a lot of the CS manufacturing capabilities iirc. i don't know of any gold reserves or anything like that, but that alone is probably going to do unpleasant things to the economy of the CS, which in turn is going to have to have a trickle-down effect on the economy of basically everywhere else in north america.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Why would gold reserves matter? Their currency isn't based on gold.

And people often confuse the STATE of Chi-Town (which is most of northern Illinois and all of Iowa) with the CITY of Chi-town. There are half a dozen other fortress cities in the Illinois area alone, with a new city coming online (Waukegan) that is bigger than Chi-town.

A large portion of the CS' industrial might is in Chi-town the STATE, not necessarily Chi-town the CITY (though the City surely does have a lot of industry).

[HWalsh]

Why would gold reserves matter? Their currency isn't based on gold.

And people often confuse the STATE of Chi-Town (which is most of northern Illinois and all of Iowa) with the CITY of Chi-town. There are half a dozen other fortress cities in the Illinois area alone, with a new city coming online (Waukegan) that is bigger than Chi-town.

A large portion of the CS' industrial might is in Chi-town the STATE, not necessarily Chi-town the CITY (though the City surely does have a lot of industry).

Nobody said gold.

Said Capital. Every nation with currency keeps capital. Be it Gold (as the US does) or whatever. This is a guarantee that the credits issued by the state have something to back them up with.

[Shark_Force]

Why would gold reserves matter? Their currency isn't based on gold.

And people often confuse the STATE of Chi-Town (which is most of northern Illinois and all of Iowa) with the CITY of Chi-town. There are half a dozen other fortress cities in the Illinois area alone, with a new city coming online (Waukegan) that is bigger than Chi-town.

A large portion of the CS' industrial might is in Chi-town the STATE, not necessarily Chi-town the CITY (though the City surely does have a lot of industry).

well, you need something as a reserve, and gold has been used for some fairly good reasons as a reserve for basically most currencies that needed it. specifically, gold is for some reason valued by everyone in spite of the fact that it largely isn't particularly useful for anything vital. it doesn't rot or decay or corrode for the most part either, so you have this oddly valuable substance that you can take out of circulation with negligible impact and store it for a long time without it losing value.

you could use something else, i suppose (various precious metals are all possibilities), but really there's a reason gold is used as a reserve today.

as to the books not saying their currency is based on gold reserves, well, i'm pretty sure that if we review the books we'll find that they're quite silent on the matter. frankly, i don't think kevin gave it much thought. but it pretty much has to be based on something.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Why would gold reserves matter? Their currency isn't based on gold.

And people often confuse the STATE of Chi-Town (which is most of northern Illinois and all of Iowa) with the CITY of Chi-town. There are half a dozen other fortress cities in the Illinois area alone, with a new city coming online (Waukegan) that is bigger than Chi-town.

A large portion of the CS' industrial might is in Chi-town the STATE, not necessarily Chi-town the CITY (though the City surely does have a lot of industry).

Nobody said gold.

Orly?

well, chi-town does have a lot of the CS manufacturing capabilities iirc. i don't know of any gold reserves or anything like that, but that alone is probably going to do unpleasant things to the economy of the CS, which in turn is going to have to have a trickle-down effect on the economy of basically everywhere else in north america.

Said Capital. Every nation with currency keeps capital. Be it Gold (as the US does) or whatever. This is a guarantee that the credits issued by the state have something to back them up with.

YOU said capital. You're making a huge, totally unfounded and not-backed-up-by-anything-in-canon-whatsoever that there is such a thing. The UC system works because the CS says it does. There is no insuring capital. You're trying to press modern day economics on a system that nothing in common with the modern day.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

well, you need something as a reserve,

Uh... why?

[Shark_Force]

well, you need something as a reserve,

Uh... why?

because otherwise your money isn't worth anything. it doesn't necessarily need to be backed 100% for every credit you issue, but it needs to be backed by something.

[HWalsh]

YOU said capital. You're making a huge, totally unfounded and not-backed-up-by-anything-in-canon-whatsoever that there is such a thing. The UC system works because the CS says it does. There is no insuring capital. You're trying to press modern day economics on a system that nothing in common with the modern day.

I see what you are trying to do, but that isn't going to work.

You're throwing that out because we called out the facts that by the book the CS isn't as good as you want them to be by reasoning based on real world systems. Why I was right there was because the real world systems contradicted the book. In that case, the book takes precedent. Your argument would be valid here, if, and only if, the books told us that the CS has no kind of insured capital.

There are only 2 ways a currency can work:

1. The currency itself has value
This is the old standby of where "Gold Pieces" come from. They were coins made of precious materials. Thus they inherently possessed value. It is very possible that the CS uses such a system. This is difficult to quantify because I always assumed a credit was printed currency (something which has no inherent value) but if CS credits are metal coins of some valuable material then there would be no need for capital.

2. The currency itself is a representation of value
This is the current system used in the real world. Paper money (and coins) are this kind of currency. This also covers digital currency (such as Bank Account values, credit cards, and the like) and these are all based on some kind of capital holding.

Now, to say that wiping out Chi-Town would absolutely cripple their currency isn't sensible. They may not have their holdings there. They have have multiple sites of holdings. They may have any number of different ways to represent capital holdings.

What could happen, theoretically, is that places like Triax and the NGR might suspend supplying the CS until the CS situation fully stabilized.

[eliakon]

The UC in Rifts, by the books at least appears to be a fiat currency that works because the setting requires that it works.
The fact that there are so many people that can issue the currency, that the currency is accepted all over the place, and that the value of the credit is stable with no fluctuations in its value, even as the value of goods changes suggests that it really isn't an actual economically modeled currency that works off of any real system. It just works because it makes the game a lot easier to run. Just like why e-clips happen to work for every weapon, or how all missiles are interchangeable, or all the other simplifications that defy 'realism' but make the story, as envisioned by Palladium, work.
Which means that losing the city of Chi-Town would have no effect on the currency, just like the loss of Tolkeen had no effect, or any of the dozens of other events that should have had some change to the money supply if it was in the least bit volatile.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

YOU said capital. You're making a huge, totally unfounded and not-backed-up-by-anything-in-canon-whatsoever that there is such a thing. The UC system works because the CS says it does. There is no insuring capital. You're trying to press modern day economics on a system that nothing in common with the modern day.

I see what you are trying to do, but that isn't going to work.

You're throwing that out because we called out the facts that by the book the CS isn't as good as you want them to be

Stop. Stop it. Seriously. You're just making yourself look like an idiot. I will repeat, for the fourty billionth time.... (and ill go slow)

I. have said. Numerous Times. That i think. That the entire setting. Including the CS, as presented. DOES. NOT. WORK.

I'm not Pepsi. I dont think the CS (as a body) are good guys. I think they make no sense - hell, the entire setting is a gigantic conflicting mess. Stop trying to append some agenda here. If i have one, it is "the entire game needs a serious rules rework to throw out 80% of the trash, and the setting needs a giant ret-con to make it make sense" 2nd Edition agenda.

by reasoning based on real world systems. Why I was right there was because the real world systems contradicted the book. In that case, the book takes precedent. Your argument would be valid here, if, and only if, the books told us that the CS has no kind of insured capital.

A middle school debate class can serve you well. You cant argue that something exists because its existence isn't denied. You have to have proof of it's existence.

There are only 2 ways a currency can work:

1. The currency itself has value
This is the old standby of where "Gold Pieces" come from. They were coins made of precious materials. Thus they inherently possessed value. It is very possible that the CS uses such a system. This is difficult to quantify because I always assumed a credit was printed currency (something which has no inherent value) but if CS credits are metal coins of some valuable material then there would be no need for capital.

Uh.. what? You assumed a credit was printed currency when it is outright stated that it is entirely electronic and handled via encrypted cards? I dont even know what to say to this. The entire system and how it works is described in several books (New West, pg 17, for one). The CS utterly controls the Universal Credit system.

2. The currency itself is a representation of value
This is the current system used in the real world. Paper money (and coins) are this kind of currency. This also covers digital currency (such as Bank Account values, credit cards, and the like) and these are all based on some kind of capital holding.

No. Just.. no. You're applying modern thoughts about what is and is not possible (which are themselves near-falsehoods, as if every currency required true capital to back it up, there would be no way to create NEW wealth, just pass existing wealth back and forth) to a situation that has no bearing on modern day anything. The CS isn't a democratic state that has to redeem its money to its own citizens - the credits are good because it says they are good. The CS does not create money for the government by taxing people - it just creates the money. EVERYTHING is nationalized. Even private businesses (like manufacturing plants) can simply be taken over by the CS government at a whim. When the CS pays its soldiers, that money doesn't come from some fund that was built up using taxes. Their pay is just added to their account - *poof* - out of the electronic ether. The soldier isn't worried about his pay not being honored - because everywhere he cares about (the CS) will honor them.

Unlike the modern world, where a country has to be responsible to other world governments, the CS doesn't give one good fart about what anyone else thinks. If NG doesn't take CS credits, the CS does not care in the slightest. It really doesn't. If NG wont accept their money (they will, as detailed in the New West "The Trouble with Credits" article) - the CS will just work out a deal in hard trade.

Now, to say that wiping out Chi-Town would absolutely cripple their currency isn't sensible. They may not have their holdings there. They have have multiple sites of holdings. They may have any number of different ways to represent capital holdings.

What could happen, theoretically, is that places like Triax and the NGR might suspend supplying the CS until the CS situation fully stabilized.

They dont need capital holdings. Those holding exist in the modern world to placate foreign powers/other governments that your currency is good. I mean, what's going to happen if the CS decides not to honor credits from the NGR or something - theyre going to what, seize CS territory? File a lawsuit with... who?

I get that you're having trouble wrapping your head around the concept of an entirely electronic currency that exists solely to exist, but that's what the UC system represents in Rifts, and it makes just as much sense as the rest of the setting.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The UC in Rifts, by the books at least appears to be a fiat currency that works because the setting requires that it works.
The fact that there are so many people that can issue the currency, that the currency is accepted all over the place, and that the value of the credit is stable with no fluctuations in its value, even as the value of goods changes suggests that it really isn't an actual economically modeled currency that works off of any real system. It just works because it makes the game a lot easier to run. Just like why e-clips happen to work for every weapon, or how all missiles are interchangeable, or all the other simplifications that defy 'realism' but make the story, as envisioned by Palladium, work.
Which means that losing the city of Chi-Town would have no effect on the currency, just like the loss of Tolkeen had no effect, or any of the dozens of other events that should have had some change to the money supply if it was in the least bit volatile.

This too. (Though, there are some mention (Atlantis, Splynn, Black Market) of credits not always trading evenly. While there are "Universal Credits" issued by the CS, Northern Gun also has its own NGMI credits, and the Black Market has 'black' untraceable credits. You can spend UC's and NGMIc's in Splynn, but you wont get full value, etc.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

well, you need something as a reserve,

Uh... why?

because otherwise your money isn't worth anything. it doesn't necessarily need to be backed 100% for every credit you issue, but it needs to be backed by something.

Again.. why?

That's how things work in the modern day, and how your brain is wired to believe the world must work...

but ...

why?

In the modern world it's a hold-over from real currency; you used to be able to take a dollar bill to the US government (or a pound bill to the UK government) and they had to give you 1$ worth of gold/silver/currency. That's no longer true. In the modern world, the "holdover" of having hard capital to back your money is to insure other countries that you're playing along in the great big shell game (because in this electronic age, that's all it is). The US is responsible to the other countries of the world for its currency. If the US scews up, the other nations of the world have legal recourse. That entire concept is alien/nonexistent in Rifts Earth.

No government in Rifts Earth is similarly responsible to anyone else. At all.

[glitterboy2098]

money with nothing bu the promises of the government issuing it is called Fiat money, and it is how pretty much all of the world's common currencies work. there are very few commodity currencies (where the money is backed by some physical material, and the amount of money in circulation is thus supposed to be limited by the amount of that material you have in reserve), and they almost all operate more like stocks and bonds rather than dollars, pounds, etc.


even before most nations switched over to Fiat money, it was the effective nature of the economics involved because once you have Banking, loans, etc, the amount of money in actual circulation/use in a society exceeds the amount that officially can exist based on the reserve. because when banks loan out money they are loaning out money that has been deposited into their accounts by people. as a result that money ends up in two (or more) places at once. this is one of the reasons that the gold standard had to be constantly fiddled with in regards to how much gold a dollar equated to.. because a degree of inflation is a natural result of modern banking, and every few years they had to adjust to ensure the reserve and the money supply matched up. eventually they gave up and went full fiat currency.

the only time that an amount of a material directly matched it's value was in the ancient world and the middle ages.. when money meant coins directly pressed from silver, gold, etc. and even then the face value was generally out of sync with the actual value due to market forces and issues like [url-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debasement]Debasement[/url] (where the coins were made with less valuable materials to try and "get money for free" by making a given volume of gold/silver form more coins.) and the like. and this wasn't forgers doing it (though those existed too, and control of the mints was very important), but rather the governments involved.


the Credits the CS uses are more likely a cryptocurrency, however. a type of digital fiat money that relies on the security of the managing agency, and the rate of new issue, to moderate the value of the money in question.

[Shark_Force]

well, you need something as a reserve,

Uh... why?

because otherwise your money isn't worth anything. it doesn't necessarily need to be backed 100% for every credit you issue, but it needs to be backed by something.

Again.. why?

That's how things work in the modern day, and how your brain is wired to believe the world must work...

but ...

why?

In the modern world it's a hold-over from real currency; you used to be able to take a dollar bill to the US government (or a pound bill to the UK government) and they had to give you 1$ worth of gold/silver/currency. That's no longer true. In the modern world, the "holdover" of having hard capital to back your money is to insure other countries that you're playing along in the great big shell game (because in this electronic age, that's all it is). The US is responsible to the other countries of the world for its currency. If the US scews up, the other nations of the world have legal recourse. That entire concept is alien/nonexistent in Rifts Earth.

No government in Rifts Earth is similarly responsible to anyone else. At all.

oh, sure, the CS has just advanced super quickly in economic theory to the point where they've discovered the magical SCIENCE!!!! secret of making everyone in the world trust their currency for absolutely no reason whatsoever (even when they were nothing more than a single town), including their enemies (which are many). because, i mean, hey, in an apocalypse, that's definitely the thing they're going to make sure they keep, all their economy textbooks. i'm sure when demons were popping up all over the place and entire countries were being hit by catastrophic natural disasters that smashed cities and reshaped continents, everyone was totally cool with accepting visa in exchange for all kinds of goods and services.

if it was basically corporate scrip that has value within the CS and nowhere else, sure. but it has value all across north america, and even in europe. they may not be accountable in the world courts, but nobody else is going to honour their credit as having more value than any other set of electronic pulses unless it actually has some worth. the credit is super stable, as well. if it was backed by nothing, you'd see it bouncing all over the place like the bitcoin does any time it gets into the news.

now sure, the CS doesn't need to have 1 billion credits worth of gold (or whatever) to back their currency. but they need something, because otherwise nobody else in the world would use it. it wouldn't be valuable for anyone who doesn't live in the CS if the only places that honour it are government-owned businesses located within the CS.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

oh, sure, the CS has just advanced super quickly in economic theory to the point where they've discovered the magical SCIENCE!!!! secret of making everyone in the world trust their currency for absolutely no reason whatsoever (even when they were nothing more than a single town), including their enemies (which are many). because, i mean, hey, in an apocalypse, that's definitely the thing they're going to make sure they keep, all their economy textbooks.

Actually, its not even about economy textbooks. It's about usability and reliability. So yeah, even your enemies use it (our enemies use the US Dollar all the time - though the Euro is the new dark money of choice with that sweet 500 Euro note) because its not about wether they can walk in to town and use it - it's that someone they trade with eventually will. And yeah, its not hard to convince outlying settlements to use your currency. The farmer knows your city has survived the cataclysm and centuries of the Dark Age, so if someone offers to pay him in credits, hell take them - because he can come to your city and buy stuff there with it. Eventually it becomes the defacto currency everywhere because you're the biggest, most stable guy on the block.

i'm sure when demons were popping up all over the place and entire countries were being hit by catastrophic natural disasters that smashed cities and reshaped continents, everyone was totally cool with accepting visa in exchange for all kinds of goods and services.

Random hyperbole is fun.

if it was basically corporate scrip that has value within the CS and nowhere else, sure. but it has value all across north america, and even in europe.

Only because the NGR uses an extremely similar system (a little more secure, even) and decided to offer parity to facilitate trade and treaties/make friends. Go to Tarnow with those CS credits and you're going to get laughed at. NGR Credits, on the other hand, are good in Tarnow.

they may not be accountable in the world courts, but nobody else is going to honour their credit as having more value than any other set of electronic pulses unless it actually has some worth. the credit is super stable, as well. if it was backed by nothing, you'd see it bouncing all over the place like the bitcoin does any time it gets into the news.

Thats because modern currency is traded like a commodity. The Credit is not.

now sure, the CS doesn't need to have 1 billion credits worth of gold (or whatever) to back their currency. but they need something, because otherwise nobody else in the world would use it. it wouldn't be valuable for anyone who doesn't live in the CS if the only places that honour it are government-owned businesses located within the CS.

It has value because it has value as a trade good. Farmer Joe will take your credits because Farmer John will take those credits and give them to Shop Owner Frank who buys farm stuff from BusinessMan Jim (none of whom are CS citizens) - and Businessman Jim buys his goods at Chi-town with CS credits. And, since they are on anonymous cards, you dont have to worry about the authorities screwing with you.

Also, see Glitterboys post above. He said it better than i could, but our money today isn't real or backed by capital. Its fiat money, just like the UC. It's worth something because our government says it is and the other governments of the world go along with that fiction because then we also say their currency is real and worth something. Its a gentlemans agreement that keeps the whole (rather illusion-like) system running. But none of it is backed by capital anymore. Even if the US possessed every ounce of gold in the world, we couldnt cover a tenth of the money we have in print, and everyone knows it.

[Proseksword]

I think its best that we all just admit that none of the economics in RIFTs make any sense whatsoever.

[Shark_Force]

ah, of course.

so the US is just keeping all that gold in the federal reserve instead of using it for other things because they like having tons of it around for no good reason.

no, it isn't enough to cover everything or remotely close to everything. but it also isn't no reserve at all.

and actually, from what we can tell the CS doesn't sell much of anything to anyone. if anything, they're doing their best to limit trade with much of the rest of the continent, considering their deal with NG. and really, the credit should pretty much drop like a rock anywhere you have to go through a whole bunch of people to get to someone who is even able to buy anything useful in CS territory.

fiat money in an post-apocalypse is an absurdity. in times of shortage, nobody wants your stupid useless paper (or in this case, plastic. or whatever). and in the world of rifts earth, that is pretty much the situation outside of a few small areas; regular shortages of all kinds of things. it can hold value inside the megacities where the CS presumably keeps supplies of everything in stock because SCIENCE!!!

but anywhere else, that money isn't going to be worth squat, because the moment there's a tight supply of something important, nobody is going to honour the fiat money over money that *is* backed by something.

(also, being an electronic currency, credits being anonymous is completely absurd).

[Proseksword]

There's no way that anyone could operate an anonymous electronic currency in a post-apocalyptic setting. Anyone with a decent laptop could generate counterfeit currency effortlessly and without a direct connection to Chi-Town's central banking system there'd be no way to verify whether or not a currency was valid. Likewise, it wouldn't be in Chi-Town's interest to allow the accounts to be anonymous - an authoritarian regime with a paranoid security apparatus like the Coalition is going to want every user traceable. The realistic end result of the system as written in the sourcebooks would be the complete collapse of the economy outside the CS and a reversion to barter as the only means of trade.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

There's no way that anyone could operate an anonymous electronic currency in a post-apocalyptic setting. Anyone with a decent laptop could generate counterfeit currency effortlessly and without a direct connection to Chi-Town's central banking system there'd be no way to verify whether or not a currency was valid. Likewise, it wouldn't be in Chi-Town's interest to allow the accounts to be anonymous - an authoritarian regime with a paranoid security apparatus like the Coalition is going to want every user traceable. The realistic end result of the system as written in the sourcebooks would be the complete collapse of the economy outside the CS and a reversion to barter as the only means of trade.

Problem with your theory (though i agree, the Credit system doesnt make a lot of sense as presented, much like.. i dunno, the entire rest of the setting) is that this HASN'T happened, therefore, it can't/won't.

The setting shows that it works.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

ah, of course.

so the US is just keeping all that gold in the federal reserve instead of using it for other things because they like having tons of it around for no good reason.

Actually... yes.

There was a decent documentary about Fort Knox (its not new, i'd say.. from the late 90s) that pops up on History Channel every now and again. There was a time (late 80s) when a bunch of the Reps wanted to tour the place to see that the gold was really there.

Several treasury department officials were caught on video/record saying that it was basically just a giant illusion. Yeah, the gold is there. They aren't legally allowed to remove it. But it's basically just a placebo. It doesn't secure anything.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

fiat money in an post-apocalypse is an absurdity.

I find fiat money to be an absurdity in real life, much less a post-post-apocalypse setting like Rifts.

I'm not disagreeing with you on principle - i think it's absurd too. One of the many, many, many things in the setting that just do not make sense and do not work.

I also think that regardless of how absurd you think it is, the setting says that is what it is and that it works. Its right there on the page in plain English. You can hate it all you want, that doesn't change the truth of it.

[Razzinold]

Why would gold reserves matter? Their currency isn't based on gold.

And people often confuse the STATE of Chi-Town (which is most of northern Illinois and all of Iowa) with the CITY of Chi-town. There are half a dozen other fortress cities in the Illinois area alone, with a new city coming online (Waukegan) that is bigger than Chi-town.

A large portion of the CS' industrial might is in Chi-town the STATE, not necessarily Chi-town the CITY (though the City surely does have a lot of industry).

I don't disagree with anything you've stated above, but I was looking at the point of view of how stable would the CS still appear by losing their commander in chief ?

For instance lets say that all currency was based out of Washington D.C. and out of no where it was wiped out. That may effect the stability of the US.
That's all I meant.

[Shark_Force]

fiat money in an post-apocalypse is an absurdity.

I find fiat money to be an absurdity in real life, much less a post-post-apocalypse setting like Rifts.

I'm not disagreeing with you on principle - i think it's absurd too. One of the many, many, many things in the setting that just do not make sense and do not work.

I also think that regardless of how absurd you think it is, the setting says that is what it is and that it works. Its right there on the page in plain English. You can hate it all you want, that doesn't change the truth of it.

so, uhhh... where's your source for definitively stating it's fiat currency then?

i mean, i'm certainly not aware of a place that says it *isn't* fiat currency. mostly because i'm not aware of any place that actually discusses whether the credit is or is not fiat currency at all.

but considering fiat currency's value is based on the authority of the issuer, which doesn't even exist in many places where it isn't used, if the books are silent on the matter it seems much more plausible that it is in fact not fiat currency. considering that there's basically no plausible way for fiat currency to survive through an apocalypse, that is.

(and on a side note, if the CS credit was *really* untraceable, then why would the black market have their own credits? i'll give a more plausible explanation regarding the CS credit: nobody cares enough to trace most transactions. they don't care if you spend 50 credits at a pub somewhere, generally speaking, but if they do suddenly care, they can probably track it down. they also most likely keep an eye on any particularly large transactions... they don't want to keep track of every time someone buys a pack of cards or a bicycle, but you can bet they want to keep an eye on people blowing 50 million credits in one shot for sure, and once they figure out what account is tied to various arms dealers you can bet they'll be keeping an eye on those even for smaller transactions. storage is cheap... interpreting all that data in realtime, not so much. also, of course, there's going to be delays in information getting into their system... eventually just about anything will show up in their system, but if you buy a laser rifle in the middle of nowhere it isn't going to show up until someone there gets in touch to confirm the transaction. depending on how much the person accepting your credits trusts you, and how easy it is to transfer information to the CS, that could be anywhere from 1 second to a week).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Unless it is a "real" currency - as in, the currency IS the commodity, like gold coins, etc - its fiat currency.

What commodity/capital could POSSIBLY back up a purely electronic crypto-currency? (And matter on the global scale, considering a LOT of governments would NEVER deal with the CS to get their currency "redeemed" for the capital/commodity in question).

Like i said, i dont disagree that it's silly and makes little sense. Half the setting contradicts the other half and little of it makes sense if you sit down and think it through. ("It's hard to get around - can take days to travel a few miles!" - books are full of cheap vehicles that can cross the entire domain of man in 10 hours. And airports in major cities with daily flights across the continent. "Magic and Psionics are SUPER RARE!" - literally every civilized town described in any book that is not magic-phobic has SIZEABLE percentages of the population who do magic or are psionic. etc, etc, etc..)

But it is what it is. A lot of nations use another nation's currency for convenience. Its already set up, already has value, and they dont need to do anything. (There are a dozen nations - and im not talking protectorates of the US or US territories, that use the US Dollar as their OFFICIAL currency, and just as many that use the Pound Sterling or AUS$).

As for everything being traceable - eventually, perhaps. Transactions are verified locally; (WB14, "TWC" article) transferred directly from card to card. Now, im sure those "credits" keep track of where they've been, and once they get transfered back into a system that is tied into the CS system, that data is probably transferred to the CS and can then be data-dumped and sifted through.. but that might be years down the road, depending on who is using them.

And, at least according to that article, the cards are anonymous, with cards that are keyed to a certain individual (with eyeprints, finterprints, etc being standard to release funds) being quite rare.

[The Beast]

well, i can't find the "can't have children with non-psychics" statement in my core books. must be somewhere else.

Such as your imagination. I'm not trying to be mean. We're all often party to this type of.... misremembering. Game has been out for 25 years. Some of us have literally been playing for decades. We read something 5.. 10... 15... literally 25 years ago... and then as time goes on as play happens we 'add to it' in our minds and think that stuff is in the book, that's not.

or, you know, that's actually been located by multiple different people and posted in this thread since then. and those of us who said it are exactly right.

that's also a possibility.

No. It hasn't. The part about them not being able to breed with humans has not been located or posted. In fact it's been UNABLE to be located. Thus is not exactly right.

The guy that made the very first post on page 2 seemed to have little trouble finding it...

[The Beast]

@Pepsi-Jedi

"Psionic mutants (and all other mutants) are forbidden, by law, to engage in sexual activity with non-psionics/non-mutants."

RIFTS Sourcebook 1 unrevised, pg.13

There ya go. A cited source.

*Reads* Interesting. It does say in that book, that psychics are considered mutants and not allowed to breed with others.

The later books have dropped this aspect and harshness, and SB1:Revised has none of it in there.

But that would likely be where people saw it. Good find Proseksword.

As it was purposefully exisized in later books I would say it's no longer held canon, but, it was in a book somewhere at one point. Good find.

Not necessarily. Seeing how that entire section, along with everything before the skelebot info was taken out it could just reflect a change in tone to have the book focus more on tech stuff, robots, Archie, and the Republicans.

[HWalsh]

So...

The current consensus is that the the CS would survive more-or-less intact due to mad cloning of Prosek which places the Lonestar doctor in power. There wouldn't be much of a break up of the CS over the loss of one city.

The Credit wouldn't suffer so life would go on as normal for most. The CS couldn't attack the FoM but might strike Lazlo, New Lazlo, Whykin, or Kingsgate. They might do this to show that they weren't vulnerable.

There is little chance of the FoM, Lazlo, or anyone striking them either. So even a monumental loss is unable to significantly wound the Coalition States. Kind of sad really.

The only real danger then is if Lord Splynny decides that whatever did it has to be investigated. That would require a push further inland. The reason, of course, is if it were a weapon of some kind it could be a threat to Atlantis and him directly.

[Shark_Force]

Unless it is a "real" currency - as in, the currency IS the commodity, like gold coins, etc - its fiat currency.

What commodity/capital could POSSIBLY back up a purely electronic crypto-currency? (And matter on the global scale, considering a LOT of governments would NEVER deal with the CS to get their currency "redeemed" for the capital/commodity in question).

Like i said, i dont disagree that it's silly and makes little sense. Half the setting contradicts the other half and little of it makes sense if you sit down and think it through. ("It's hard to get around - can take days to travel a few miles!" - books are full of cheap vehicles that can cross the entire domain of man in 10 hours. And airports in major cities with daily flights across the continent. "Magic and Psionics are SUPER RARE!" - literally every civilized town described in any book that is not magic-phobic has SIZEABLE percentages of the population who do magic or are psionic. etc, etc, etc..)

But it is what it is. A lot of nations use another nation's currency for convenience. Its already set up, already has value, and they dont need to do anything. (There are a dozen nations - and im not talking protectorates of the US or US territories, that use the US Dollar as their OFFICIAL currency, and just as many that use the Pound Sterling or AUS$).

As for everything being traceable - eventually, perhaps. Transactions are verified locally; (WB14, "TWC" article) transferred directly from card to card. Now, im sure those "credits" keep track of where they've been, and once they get transfered back into a system that is tied into the CS system, that data is probably transferred to the CS and can then be data-dumped and sifted through.. but that might be years down the road, depending on who is using them.

And, at least according to that article, the cards are anonymous, with cards that are keyed to a certain individual (with eyeprints, finterprints, etc being standard to release funds) being quite rare.

the difference between having a reserve and not having a reserve is that if someone comes to redeem the money, they know you keep a reserve so you shouldn't be out unless something has happened that is so bad that you pretty much don't exist. see, i can totaly believe that concerns about shortages are not really a thing *in* the fortress cities. but you need to be able to know that there will be something when you go to use your money in the CS, something that isn't going to go to citizens first. i mean, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if they have food, and there is a major food shortage, their own citizens are going to be at the top of their priority list and everyone else is going to need to pay dozens of times as much, or pay in commodities, if you can find someone selling it at all.

if the credit represents a commodity (even if there isn't enough gold to represent every single credit), you can keep some stability in that situation. otherwise, well, history has plenty of examples of fiat currency going down the toilet. because there isn't going to be a "gold shortage" such that the CS cannot afford to give up their gold, the way there could be with other goods that actually get used for something important.

now again, it doesn't have to be gold. gold just happens to have some advantages when it comes to being used as a commodity that other things don't have. but if you don't have *something* with value as a commodity, then your currency is going to fluctuate wildly in a world where scarcity of resources is a major concern, especially in places where the issuing government has no authority of any kind.

[eliakon]

Unless it is a "real" currency - as in, the currency IS the commodity, like gold coins, etc - its fiat currency.

What commodity/capital could POSSIBLY back up a purely electronic crypto-currency? (And matter on the global scale, considering a LOT of governments would NEVER deal with the CS to get their currency "redeemed" for the capital/commodity in question).

Like i said, i dont disagree that it's silly and makes little sense. Half the setting contradicts the other half and little of it makes sense if you sit down and think it through. ("It's hard to get around - can take days to travel a few miles!" - books are full of cheap vehicles that can cross the entire domain of man in 10 hours. And airports in major cities with daily flights across the continent. "Magic and Psionics are SUPER RARE!" - literally every civilized town described in any book that is not magic-phobic has SIZEABLE percentages of the population who do magic or are psionic. etc, etc, etc..)

But it is what it is. A lot of nations use another nation's currency for convenience. Its already set up, already has value, and they dont need to do anything. (There are a dozen nations - and im not talking protectorates of the US or US territories, that use the US Dollar as their OFFICIAL currency, and just as many that use the Pound Sterling or AUS$).

As for everything being traceable - eventually, perhaps. Transactions are verified locally; (WB14, "TWC" article) transferred directly from card to card. Now, im sure those "credits" keep track of where they've been, and once they get transfered back into a system that is tied into the CS system, that data is probably transferred to the CS and can then be data-dumped and sifted through.. but that might be years down the road, depending on who is using them.

And, at least according to that article, the cards are anonymous, with cards that are keyed to a certain individual (with eyeprints, finterprints, etc being standard to release funds) being quite rare.

the difference between having a reserve and not having a reserve is that if someone comes to redeem the money, they know you keep a reserve so you shouldn't be out unless something has happened that is so bad that you pretty much don't exist. see, i can totaly believe that concerns about shortages are not really a thing *in* the fortress cities. but you need to be able to know that there will be something when you go to use your money in the CS, something that isn't going to go to citizens first. i mean, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if they have food, and there is a major food shortage, their own citizens are going to be at the top of their priority list and everyone else is going to need to pay dozens of times as much, or pay in commodities, if you can find someone selling it at all.

if the credit represents a commodity (even if there isn't enough gold to represent every single credit), you can keep some stability in that situation. otherwise, well, history has plenty of examples of fiat currency going down the toilet. because there isn't going to be a "gold shortage" such that the CS cannot afford to give up their gold, the way there could be with other goods that actually get used for something important.

now again, it doesn't have to be gold. gold just happens to have some advantages when it comes to being used as a commodity that other things don't have. but if you don't have *something* with value as a commodity, then your currency is going to fluctuate wildly in a world where scarcity of resources is a major concern, especially in places where the issuing government has no authority of any kind.

The problem with making the UC a acked currency is that the books never say it is one, and implying that it has a backing requires the creation, from whole cloth, of the backing system behind the currency.
Which considering that the UC is supposedly a continuation of the Golden Age Credit which WAS fiat...makes no sense.

[Shark_Force]

it doesn't say it *isn't* a backed currency either.

probably because the authors aren't economists and didn't bother asking themselves that question.

[Rallan]

fiat money in an post-apocalypse is an absurdity.

I find fiat money to be an absurdity in real life, much less a post-post-apocalypse setting like Rifts.

I'm not disagreeing with you on principle - i think it's absurd too. One of the many, many, many things in the setting that just do not make sense and do not work.

I also think that regardless of how absurd you think it is, the setting says that is what it is and that it works. Its right there on the page in plain English. You can hate it all you want, that doesn't change the truth of it.

And yet fiat currency exists in real life and has worked for centuries. And what it replaced was a fiat currency by default, because what makes gold and silver valuable other than the fact that we all agree they're valuable?

I mean there's no denying that Credits in Rifts are incredibly vaguely and badly explained and that absolutely nothing about the economics of that game makes any sense at all, but there's nothing inherently ludicrous about the idea of fiat currency making a comeback. Especially not when it starts in rigidly governed enclosed high tech enclaves, and then ends up spreading organically across North America because the enclaves backing the fiat currency just happen to hold a majority of the population, produce most of the goods, and are the largest import market on the continent.

[Shark_Force]

fiat currency also has a long history of failing miserably. it has worked irl. it has also *not* worked irl at various times.

(in contrast, commodity currency doesn't generally fail unless someone starts debasing it, for example by making coins out of gold alloy instead of gold).

in a society where shortages are consistent and the backing authority has absolutely no authority in the majority of the places where it is being used, having the currency backed by something of value is vastly more plausible than not having the currency backed by something of value. heck, if it's only partially backed, the CS can even make money off of the proposition by basically being the company that buys gold from average people at below market value and sells it to average people at above market value (that is, they'll give you, say, 80% of market value for any gold you sell them, no ID required, and will exchange .8 credits worth of gold for every credit you exchange, no ID required... change % as appropriate, but basically you get the idea). people will generally not make use of that service (because you're losing value), but it's always there in the back of their minds that a credit has a definite value.

it would also explain why gold, silver, various gemstones, etc have set credit values that largely don't vary by much no matter where in north america you are. gold is worth X credits per ounce everywhere in north america because everyone knows how much the CS money exchange will give you for it.

[eliakon]

fiat currency also has a long history of failing miserably. it has worked irl. it has also *not* worked irl at various times.

(in contrast, commodity currency doesn't generally fail unless someone starts debasing it, for example by making coins out of gold alloy instead of gold).

in a society where shortages are consistent and the backing authority has absolutely no authority in the majority of the places where it is being used, having the currency backed by something of value is vastly more plausible than not having the currency backed by something of value. heck, if it's only partially backed, the CS can even make money off of the proposition by basically being the company that buys gold from average people at below market value and sells it to average people at above market value (that is, they'll give you, say, 80% of market value for any gold you sell them, no ID required, and will exchange .8 credits worth of gold for every credit you exchange, no ID required... change % as appropriate, but basically you get the idea). people will generally not make use of that service (because you're losing value), but it's always there in the back of their minds that a credit has a definite value.

it would also explain why gold, silver, various gemstones, etc have set credit values that largely don't vary by much no matter where in north america you are. gold is worth X credits per ounce everywhere in north america because everyone knows how much the CS money exchange will give you for it.

Gold, and gems have value because there is a huge consumer market for them as 'industrial' raw materials. Every TW on the planet (and there are a LOT of TWs, not to mention the huge number of TW using/oriented nations) uses them as raw materials.
Silver is inherently valuable as a strategic material as a huge array of threats are vulnerable to silver weapons (in fact it is so valuable that its price actually changes depending on the year and location.

Which in fact creates the interesting fact that the bulk of fixed value goods are all of interest and worth to people that are NOT CS. The CS has no interest in supporting a TW economy, has no interest in supporting the market in pre-rifts artifacts, no interest in the book economy...

To be blunt though, I suspect that the credit is a fiat currency in a meta-game standpoint...It works, and is worth what it is worth because the game says so.