Coalition States - Good, Bad, or In-Between?

[HWalsh]

Now... This is another, "Is the CS evil?" Thread... Kind of... The old one would be necro-posting so it is a new one.

This one is going to have a twist.

First:
Nobody is talking about the CS, as in every single person in it. We know that there are good individuals, evil individuals, and the general population of the CS are too ignorant to make informed decisions.

Second:
There should be no propaganda in this one. We are going off of not why they say what they do, but what they do. So, in this case, actions speak louder than words. So, we all know that they claim that they don't want to make people learn to read because they don't want to "trouble people" to have to learn to do it (reading is hard!) as they say in the fiction insert in RUE. We all also know that isn't the real reason. So, lets separate the facts from the fiction.

Third:
To determine Good, Evil, or Selfish we are going to use Palladium's rules. So, to be Good, the Coalition (in this case, the leadership of the Coalition and the Coalitions acts as an entity) must meet the requirements as set out by Principled and/or Scrupulous as alignments. Evil? Aberrant, Miscreant, and Diabolic. Selfish? Unprincipled or Anarchist.

Finally:
We will also look at these things objectively. We will not look at them from, "The perspective" of the CS, or Lazlo. We are the players. We will look at this from the view of total objectivity.

I'll reply to this with my opinions on things, but I don't want to pollute the main post.

[HWalsh]

Here are some of the arguments I have for evil...

In SoT it was stated that any Deebee, or Magic User, even a child, would be killed on the field. Any soldier who "hesitated" was subject to harsh discipline, and usually were executed by their own squad as a sign of mercy.

This meets the requirement for evil under "Diabolic" and "Miscreant" as:
"Most certainly attack or kill an unarmed foe" or "Kill an unarmed foe as readily as he would a potential threat or competition."

In SoT it was stated that the CS will use torture to obtain information. This was so much normal procedure that they, in fact, put R&D time in on implants to put in mages that stopped them from being able to sleep.

This meets the requirement for evil under "Aberrant' for:
Never torture for pleasure, but will use it to extract information and intimidate others.

In general the CS lies all the time. They lie to their own people on a daily basis. That makes the case for Miscreant or Diabolic.
How do you know a CS propaganda officer is lying? Their lips are moving.

They do have some positive traits as well they will go to bat for any humans they find, without a doubt, unless they use magic. So I don't think they fit for Principled or Scrupulous... But that could easily fit for, "Not likely to help someone without some kind of ulterior motive." As saving humans and protecting humans are absolutely something which the CS does for their benefit. They'd have to be willing to save Magic Users and Deebees to fit the more noble alignments. This might also fall under Aberrant as well.

I don't think the CS works well within a group. They have always been more of the, "Join us or die" type. However they can work well with others who share their views. So I'd be willing to go with, "Work with others if it will help him attain his goals." Which would put them in Miscreant maybe?

Are they Principled?

No.

Going down the list, without quoting it (see RUE 290)
1. No.
2. No. Nooooo. Nooooooooooo. They have an entire division devoted to no.
3. No.
4. No.
5. No.
6. Yes, maybe?
7. No. Absolutely no.
8. Yes, maybe?
9. No.
10. No. They attack other cities. Which shows no regard for their authority.
11. No. As discussed above. They only work well in groups that align to their beliefs.
12. No.
13. Yes? Maybe?

Scrupulous:
1. Nope.
2. Nope.
3. Nope.
4. Ha! No.
5. Nope. They will use it on good characters.
6. Nope.
7. Nope.
8. Yes, maybe?
9. Nope. They will use it on anyone.
10. No. They are actually really good about fighting crime.
11. Unsure?
12. No.
13. Maybe?

So that is my stance. I think they have too many marks against them to be good. Possibly selfish or evil. What say you guys?


I am thinking miscreant:

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. No. I don't think they do it for pleasure.
6. No, again, not for pleasure.
7. No, at least not where Humans are concerned.
8. Yes.
9. Yes.
10. These one is hard when you talk about an empire.
11. Yes.
12. Yes.
13. I don't know.
14. Yes.

So in my opinion that gives them 9/14 yes on Miscreant.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Your stipulations are rigged to get the result you're looking for. If you ask a question but add so many stipulations to it to only allow for one answer, then it's not really a question, but you phrasing your viewpoint with a question mark.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just pointing out that your query is too narrowly focused, and defined, and stipulated and limited in it's scope to get anything but what you're looking for.

Your third stipulation alone, would have "Superman" As an evil alignment. (Not being figurative, if you look at what he's done in the past, he couldn't hit 'Good' alignments, or even selfish for the most part. The best Superman, the all time 'boy scout' could hit would be Aberrant, and even that's a stretch. MAaaaybe Anarchist, but likely one of the other evil alignments. It's one of the failings of the system. By literal 'yes/no" ruling on the alignment charts. Superman is 'evil' or at very best the lessor and more evil of the two selfish alignments.

[Blue_Lion]

Most the upper leadership is clearly corrupt and or evil(stated as such in the books). Many of the policies the CS fallow are set by upper leadership.

By the books the CS violated the rules of war that we use to determine if some one is wrong in war. So the CS military command and many of the soldiers from tolkeen can be classified as war criminals by modern values recognized in war. (Targeting of Civilians on the battlefield, use of force on none tactical targets and attacking refugees. All happened as part of SoP in the war with Tolkeen.)

By the books the people themselves are not evil most are unaware of the CS evil goals. The CS propaganda policy wraps the darkness of the CS in the flag of nationalism to hide its true meaning. Demonizing any one not like them to justify there dark agenda. Similar to how the Nazis got Germany to fallow there flag in WWII.

The CS military as I understand it has become ripe with corruption that can make the actions of there army be on the evil to be well known. With corrupt leadership it is unlikely they will take steps to remove corruption.

(To my understanding of Superman he comes a crossed as principle over all. There may have been a few times where writers show a laps of judgment, and he only takes ill-gotten goods when it is to safeguard them or prevent there misuse. The use of PB aliments was likely to avoid a philosophical debate on what is good and evil, the first one recognizes that it not the individuals we are talking about, the second makes it about how they act not what they say. so it is about avoiding the usual pro/anti CS debates and find what people think the CS is. Not about a guided reply to just one solution.)

[HWalsh]

Your stipulations are rigged to get the result you're looking for. If you ask a question but add so many stipulations to it to only allow for one answer, then it's not really a question, but you phrasing your viewpoint with a question mark.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just pointing out that your query is too narrowly focused, and defined, and stipulated and limited in it's scope to get anything but what you're looking for.

Your third stipulation alone, would have "Superman" As an evil alignment. (Not being figurative, if you look at what he's done in the past, he couldn't hit 'Good' alignments, or even selfish for the most part. The best Superman, the all time 'boy scout' could hit would be Aberrant, and even that's a stretch. MAaaaybe Anarchist, but likely one of the other evil alignments. It's one of the failings of the system. By literal 'yes/no" ruling on the alignment charts. Superman is 'evil' or at very best the lessor and more evil of the two selfish alignments.

I disagree. Superman? I could justify principled. Doesn't take 12/12.

[Alrik Vas]

Contrast what other "good" governments have done as well during times of war. I don't think it'll make a huge difference for how the CS is viewed, but it will help is understand that in war, no one is the good guy.

Look at the CS track record outside war time though and they're still subversive, still wipe out villages of people they see as a threat without mercy, still coerce and torture.

Yeah, the CS government is evil. We get it. It's evil is born of self interest,.motivated by hate that's cultivated at an early age. It's up to the citizens to see what is happening around them and act out, or keep their heads down.

We see it in our world all throughout history and today.

I'm wondering why we keep having this discussion, what good does it do?

[The Beast]

Your stipulations are rigged to get the result you're looking for. If you ask a question but add so many stipulations to it to only allow for one answer, then it's not really a question, but you phrasing your viewpoint with a question mark.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just pointing out that your query is too narrowly focused, and defined, and stipulated and limited in it's scope to get anything but what you're looking for.

Your third stipulation alone, would have "Superman" As an evil alignment. (Not being figurative, if you look at what he's done in the past, he couldn't hit 'Good' alignments, or even selfish for the most part. The best Superman, the all time 'boy scout' could hit would be Aberrant, and even that's a stretch. MAaaaybe Anarchist, but likely one of the other evil alignments. It's one of the failings of the system. By literal 'yes/no" ruling on the alignment charts. Superman is 'evil' or at very best the lessor and more evil of the two selfish alignments.

I disagree. Superman? I could justify principled. Doesn't take 12/12.

Even after the time he leveled a neighborhood because it was full of poor people?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Your stipulations are rigged to get the result you're looking for. If you ask a question but add so many stipulations to it to only allow for one answer, then it's not really a question, but you phrasing your viewpoint with a question mark.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just pointing out that your query is too narrowly focused, and defined, and stipulated and limited in it's scope to get anything but what you're looking for.

Your third stipulation alone, would have "Superman" As an evil alignment. (Not being figurative, if you look at what he's done in the past, he couldn't hit 'Good' alignments, or even selfish for the most part. The best Superman, the all time 'boy scout' could hit would be Aberrant, and even that's a stretch. MAaaaybe Anarchist, but likely one of the other evil alignments. It's one of the failings of the system. By literal 'yes/no" ruling on the alignment charts. Superman is 'evil' or at very best the lessor and more evil of the two selfish alignments.

I disagree. Superman? I could justify principled. Doesn't take 12/12.

You're wrong. As written the palladium alignment system has many "Would never" or "Would always" In its bullet points, going by that, Superman could not land in either 'Good' alignments. Nor unprincipaled. Only by really stretching one's definitions can you get him in anything other than the evil alignments. For Example. In "Principled" The first bullet point is "Always keep his word" number two is 'avoid lies' Superman lies daily. He has a secret identity and lies about being superman. Number 3 is 'Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.' Which he does when ever he sees need. not all are superpowered either and could be considered to be "Armed" with powers. he once threw a normal human guy over the horizon. Number 5 "never toture for any reason" has been broken. Number 9 is broken all the time "Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. this means no breaking an entering, theft, totrue, unprovoked assaults etc. Again, tennant broken all the time.

Superman couldn't rate principled due to these "NEVERS" that he does. This goes for Scrupulous and Unprincipaled too. You might be able to squeese him into Anarchist, but he likely couldn't even rate Aberrant.

[HWalsh]

Your stipulations are rigged to get the result you're looking for. If you ask a question but add so many stipulations to it to only allow for one answer, then it's not really a question, but you phrasing your viewpoint with a question mark.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just pointing out that your query is too narrowly focused, and defined, and stipulated and limited in it's scope to get anything but what you're looking for.

Your third stipulation alone, would have "Superman" As an evil alignment. (Not being figurative, if you look at what he's done in the past, he couldn't hit 'Good' alignments, or even selfish for the most part. The best Superman, the all time 'boy scout' could hit would be Aberrant, and even that's a stretch. MAaaaybe Anarchist, but likely one of the other evil alignments. It's one of the failings of the system. By literal 'yes/no" ruling on the alignment charts. Superman is 'evil' or at very best the lessor and more evil of the two selfish alignments.

I disagree. Superman? I could justify principled. Doesn't take 12/12.

Even after the time he leveled a neighborhood because it was full of poor people?

Big difference between which Superman you're referring to. Golden Age, Silver Age, Post Crisis, and New 52 are all different characters.

[Alrik Vas]

Same can be said of the CS, chief. Depending on who is writing it and what they're trying to say, Uncle Skullhead can be a righteous, honorable guy...or a paranoid, genocidal maniac.

[HWalsh]

Your stipulations are rigged to get the result you're looking for. If you ask a question but add so many stipulations to it to only allow for one answer, then it's not really a question, but you phrasing your viewpoint with a question mark.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just pointing out that your query is too narrowly focused, and defined, and stipulated and limited in it's scope to get anything but what you're looking for.

Your third stipulation alone, would have "Superman" As an evil alignment. (Not being figurative, if you look at what he's done in the past, he couldn't hit 'Good' alignments, or even selfish for the most part. The best Superman, the all time 'boy scout' could hit would be Aberrant, and even that's a stretch. MAaaaybe Anarchist, but likely one of the other evil alignments. It's one of the failings of the system. By literal 'yes/no" ruling on the alignment charts. Superman is 'evil' or at very best the lessor and more evil of the two selfish alignments.

I disagree. Superman? I could justify principled. Doesn't take 12/12.

You're wrong. As written the palladium alignment system has many "Would never" or "Would always" In its bullet points, going by that, Superman could not land in either 'Good' alignments. Nor unprincipaled. Only by really stretching one's definitions can you get him in anything other than the evil alignments. For Example. In "Principled" The first bullet point is "Always keep his word" number two is 'avoid lies' Superman lies daily. He has a secret identity and lies about being superman. Number 3 is 'Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.' Which he does when ever he sees need. not all are superpowered either and could be considered to be "Armed" with powers. he once threw a normal human guy over the horizon. Number 5 "never toture for any reason" has been broken. Number 9 is broken all the time "Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. this means no breaking an entering, theft, totrue, unprovoked assaults etc. Again, tennant broken all the time.

Superman couldn't rate principled due to these "NEVERS" that he does. This goes for Scrupulous and Unprincipaled too. You might be able to squeese him into Anarchist, but he likely couldn't even rate Aberrant.

Not really.

You're mixing versions for one. I'd keep it to Post Crisis.

For two Superman specifically doesn't lie about not being Superman. He simply says he's Clark, which he is.

Superman (at least Post Crisis) has never attacked an unarmed for.

Throwing a guy "over the horizon" was probably Golden/Silver Age and yes you'd have a point.

He's never tortured.

He can't really break the law either as he's a legally empowered "Special Officer" canonically.

[HWalsh]

Same can be said of the CS, chief. Depending on who is writing it and what they're trying to say, Uncle Skullhead can be a righteous, honorable guy...or a paranoid, genocidal maniac.

No. Not really. One is ACTUALLY different characters. As in they've teamed up. There's only one CS.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Your stipulations are rigged to get the result you're looking for. If you ask a question but add so many stipulations to it to only allow for one answer, then it's not really a question, but you phrasing your viewpoint with a question mark.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just pointing out that your query is too narrowly focused, and defined, and stipulated and limited in it's scope to get anything but what you're looking for.

Your third stipulation alone, would have "Superman" As an evil alignment. (Not being figurative, if you look at what he's done in the past, he couldn't hit 'Good' alignments, or even selfish for the most part. The best Superman, the all time 'boy scout' could hit would be Aberrant, and even that's a stretch. MAaaaybe Anarchist, but likely one of the other evil alignments. It's one of the failings of the system. By literal 'yes/no" ruling on the alignment charts. Superman is 'evil' or at very best the lessor and more evil of the two selfish alignments.

I disagree. Superman? I could justify principled. Doesn't take 12/12.

You're wrong. As written the palladium alignment system has many "Would never" or "Would always" In its bullet points, going by that, Superman could not land in either 'Good' alignments. Nor unprincipaled. Only by really stretching one's definitions can you get him in anything other than the evil alignments. For Example. In "Principled" The first bullet point is "Always keep his word" number two is 'avoid lies' Superman lies daily. He has a secret identity and lies about being superman. Number 3 is 'Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.' Which he does when ever he sees need. not all are superpowered either and could be considered to be "Armed" with powers. he once threw a normal human guy over the horizon. Number 5 "never toture for any reason" has been broken. Number 9 is broken all the time "Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. this means no breaking an entering, theft, totrue, unprovoked assaults etc. Again, tennant broken all the time.

Superman couldn't rate principled due to these "NEVERS" that he does. This goes for Scrupulous and Unprincipaled too. You might be able to squeese him into Anarchist, but he likely couldn't even rate Aberrant.

Not really.

You're mixing versions for one. I'd keep it to Post Crisis.

Nooo... You're adding EXTREAMLY NARROW stipulations to try and dodge the point. "Superman" encompasses "Superman" Not just "Post Crisis" Superman. But even then, Superman has done some REALLY Screwed up stuff. (Batman too. but he's not the current point making topic)

For two Superman specifically doesn't lie about not being Superman. He simply says he's Clark, which he is.

There has been repeated time and again lied about being Superman.

Superman (at least Post Crisis) has never attacked an unarmed for.

I've not read every comic ever written but I bet he has. More over. It's just you tryng to add a "Post crisis" stipulation there. As pointed out, he one time destroyed an entire shanty town, he's locked up lois in a bubble, he's mind controled people, etc etc etc. many many actions that don't fit in the alignments.

Throwing a guy "over the horizon" was probably Golden/Silver Age and yes you'd have a point.

It's still superman. By your logic I could go "Oh the CS, but only the last 15 pages of the HoH book. As... that's the part I like and moooooooooooost recent. Superman has been around since 1938. You're trying to take a narrow sliver of that time and go "Oh your wrong!!" while ignoring the majority of the time the character has been around.

I could do that with the CS too. You could do it with anything. if you took a narrow sliver of Hitler's life he looks like a vegan painter... but that's not representative of who the douchebag is.

He's never tortured.

You need to research your superheroes better.

He can't really break the law either as he's a legally empowered "Special Officer" canonically.[/quote]

Law officers still have to follow the law Walsh.

[Alrik Vas]

Same can be said of the CS, chief. Depending on who is writing it and what they're trying to say, Uncle Skullhead can be a righteous, honorable guy...or a paranoid, genocidal maniac.

No. Not really. One is ACTUALLY different characters. As in they've teamed up. There's only one CS.

It doesn't matter. Superman has been used as propaganda for many different purposes. It doesn't depend on if there's an alternate version, but rather what purpose the writer is fulfilling with the character. One character can be used many different ways.

[taalismn]

The CS may have started as a perfectly rational idea...Preserve humanity, defend Earth, but it's been corrupted by internal power plays.
Yes, co-existence with d-bees is possible, but there's also the argument that even if Humanity makes nice with its new neighbors, it's entirely possible that the nice, kindly d-bees, regardless of the best intentions, either by species fecundity or by the sheer number of different species, would squeeze out Humanity on its own homeworld, forcing us to either make a stand, go full CS human supremacist, or flee to seek refuge with our fellow human-rats elsewhere in the Megaverse.
So from the perspective, the CS can be seen as a 'good' thing, if sheer survival and territory holding is your definition is good, and you excuse the draconian(and often self-serving) polices and attitudes of the Prosek family.

[The Beast]

...Not really.

You're mixing versions for one. I'd keep it to Post Crisis.

For two Superman specifically doesn't lie about not being Superman. He simply says he's Clark, which he is.

Superman (at least Post Crisis) has never attacked an unarmed for.

Throwing a guy "over the horizon" was probably Golden/Silver Age and yes you'd have a point.

He's never tortured.

He can't really break the law either as he's a legally empowered "Special Officer" canonically.

If you have proof of that being the version of Superman Kevin had in mind when he came up with the alignment system you'd have a point. But unless Kevin comes forward and says which version he was thinking of, every version should be taken into consideration.

[Blue_Lion]

WoW people really going out of the way to make it more complex issue than it needs to be.

While being X aliment he may never, but people can change over time and big blue is almost 100 years so while at one time he was a jerk that is no longer the case as he is now he would never do most the things on the list. I do not think the goal of the list was to make once evil always evil set up but to define what some would do with said aliment. The same is true of nations there aliment can change over time, under the Nazi regime Germany was taking actions as a nation that where clearly evil that modern Germany would never do.

I also disagree that there is no good nations in war, many nations officially fallow the laws of war during times of war now that keeps them from doing the things during combat that would make them bad guys. Individuals may break the laws but that is individuals not over all. The CS on the other hand is written in SoT as doing evil things, bombing whole towns, targeting unarmed civilians, genocide as SOP, and takes no action to prevent its troops from doing it.

Surviving and holding territory in themselves are neither good or evil. Evil holds territory and survives same as good but the methods they use to do so can determine weather they are good or evil.

[Blue_Lion]

...Not really.

You're mixing versions for one. I'd keep it to Post Crisis.

For two Superman specifically doesn't lie about not being Superman. He simply says he's Clark, which he is.

Superman (at least Post Crisis) has never attacked an unarmed for.

Throwing a guy "over the horizon" was probably Golden/Silver Age and yes you'd have a point.

He's never tortured.

He can't really break the law either as he's a legally empowered "Special Officer" canonically.

If you have proof of that being the version of Superman Kevin had in mind when he came up with the alignment system you'd have a point. But unless Kevin comes forward and says which version he was thinking of, every version should be taken into consideration.

No need to get he proof, you yourself just recognized there is more than one version of super man. The post crisis one he is talking about is the modern superman that most people are familiar with. Saying super man can not be considered principle ignores how he is now and relies on using old versions of him. (Most movies he is never portrayed right.)


What you are saying is that if at any point some one was considered evil then they are always evil, that has no chance for some one to reform and I do not feel that was the intent of the PB alignment system it defines what you would do while you have said alignment. The dragon hatchling is an example of the alignment not being set they can do things before they have alignment and still get an aliment that should not be possible having done X.

[HWalsh]

The CS may have started as a perfectly rational idea...Preserve humanity, defend Earth, but it's been corrupted by internal power plays.
Yes, co-existence with d-bees is possible, but there's also the argument that even if Humanity makes nice with its new neighbors, it's entirely possible that the nice, kindly d-bees, regardless of the best intentions, either by species fecundity or by the sheer number of different species, would squeeze out Humanity on its own homeworld, forcing us to either make a stand, go full CS human supremacist, or flee to seek refuge with our fellow human-rats elsewhere in the Megaverse.
So from the perspective, the CS can be seen as a 'good' thing, if sheer survival and territory holding is your definition is good, and you excuse the draconian(and often self-serving) polices and attitudes of the Prosek family.

Palladium, like D&D, Pathfinder, and other games with alignment don't deal in subjective morality. It really doesn't matter on perspective at all.

[blackwingedheaven]

The Blues Brothers pretty much summed it up for me: "I hate Illinois Nazis."

[Alrik Vas]

The Blues Brothers pretty much summed it up for me: "I hate Illinois Nazis."

[Nightmask]

Your stipulations are rigged to get the result you're looking for. If you ask a question but add so many stipulations to it to only allow for one answer, then it's not really a question, but you phrasing your viewpoint with a question mark.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just pointing out that your query is too narrowly focused, and defined, and stipulated and limited in it's scope to get anything but what you're looking for.

Your third stipulation alone, would have "Superman" As an evil alignment. (Not being figurative, if you look at what he's done in the past, he couldn't hit 'Good' alignments, or even selfish for the most part. The best Superman, the all time 'boy scout' could hit would be Aberrant, and even that's a stretch. MAaaaybe Anarchist, but likely one of the other evil alignments. It's one of the failings of the system. By literal 'yes/no" ruling on the alignment charts. Superman is 'evil' or at very best the lessor and more evil of the two selfish alignments.

I disagree. Superman? I could justify principled. Doesn't take 12/12.

You're wrong. As written the palladium alignment system has many "Would never" or "Would always" In its bullet points, going by that, Superman could not land in either 'Good' alignments. Nor unprincipaled. Only by really stretching one's definitions can you get him in anything other than the evil alignments. For Example. In "Principled" The first bullet point is "Always keep his word" number two is 'avoid lies' Superman lies daily. He has a secret identity and lies about being superman. Number 3 is 'Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.' Which he does when ever he sees need. not all are superpowered either and could be considered to be "Armed" with powers. he once threw a normal human guy over the horizon. Number 5 "never toture for any reason" has been broken. Number 9 is broken all the time "Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. this means no breaking an entering, theft, totrue, unprovoked assaults etc. Again, tennant broken all the time.

Superman couldn't rate principled due to these "NEVERS" that he does. This goes for Scrupulous and Unprincipaled too. You might be able to squeese him into Anarchist, but he likely couldn't even rate Aberrant.

Not really.

You're mixing versions for one. I'd keep it to Post Crisis.

For two Superman specifically doesn't lie about not being Superman. He simply says he's Clark, which he is.

Superman (at least Post Crisis) has never attacked an unarmed for.

Throwing a guy "over the horizon" was probably Golden/Silver Age and yes you'd have a point.

He's never tortured.

He can't really break the law either as he's a legally empowered "Special Officer" canonically.

Of course Superman can break the law, having a badge doesn't mean you're above the law (contrary to what some might think). Anytime he's shown using his X-Ray vision and super-hearing to look into a building he's breaking the law unless he's got a legally justifiable reason to be doing so, like having smelled meth being made in the area and tracking it to that building. It just empowers him with the abilities of a member of law enforcement to legally arrest and detain someone for a crime rather than being just a vigilante (and not sure but I think only the Silver Age version had the badge and even then that only applied in Metropolis).

[Nightmask]

Your stipulations are rigged to get the result you're looking for. If you ask a question but add so many stipulations to it to only allow for one answer, then it's not really a question, but you phrasing your viewpoint with a question mark.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just pointing out that your query is too narrowly focused, and defined, and stipulated and limited in it's scope to get anything but what you're looking for.

Your third stipulation alone, would have "Superman" As an evil alignment. (Not being figurative, if you look at what he's done in the past, he couldn't hit 'Good' alignments, or even selfish for the most part. The best Superman, the all time 'boy scout' could hit would be Aberrant, and even that's a stretch. MAaaaybe Anarchist, but likely one of the other evil alignments. It's one of the failings of the system. By literal 'yes/no" ruling on the alignment charts. Superman is 'evil' or at very best the lessor and more evil of the two selfish alignments.

I disagree. Superman? I could justify principled. Doesn't take 12/12.

Even after the time he leveled a neighborhood because it was full of poor people?

The Golden Age version was way more on the neutral rather than lawful good side of things, making him more Scrupulous to Unprincipled at best (although given how he could use Batman-level techniques of intimidation at times almost makes for Aberrant). Which is why he had no problems destroying the homes of hundreds of people under the flawed reasoning that 'well the government will come in and repair it like they did those homes in the next county after that tornado hit', totally ignoring the fact that the government WOULDN'T be rebuilding a neighborhood subjected to such willful destruction and in fact would have reasonably had an arrest warrant out for him for such destruction. But hey he's Superman and it's depressing how many people will insist that what he does is okay because he's Superman and can do no wrong.

[HWalsh]

Of course Superman can break the law, having a badge doesn't mean you're above the law (contrary to what some might think). Anytime he's shown using his X-Ray vision and super-hearing to look into a building he's breaking the law unless he's got a legally justifiable reason to be doing so, like having smelled meth being made in the area and tracking it to that building. It just empowers him with the abilities of a member of law enforcement to legally arrest and detain someone for a crime rather than being just a vigilante (and not sure but I think only the Silver Age version had the badge and even then that only applied in Metropolis).

Actually no. He's not.

You're making things up and aren't really up on your canon. If a police officer looks through your window and sees you hitting your wife, for example, they can interfere. Superman's not using an external device, his powers aren't even technically powers, his powers are his natural visual and auditory detecting capabilities. He has special deputy status so he is allowed to use force legally, and he is allowed to arrest legally, and he is allowed to stand trial (legally) under the name "Kal El."

In the Post-Crisis Era he was given permission to act unilaterally in every country that was a member of NATO or the United Nations.

So, no, his X-Ray vision? Nope. That is just how his eyes work. He's not using anything external. It is like if you have very keen hearing, you're allowed to use that as reasonable doubt.

[Blue_Lion]

I find it funny a question on the CS turned into superman.

Thing is there are different versions of superman but the person who introduced him, stated that he is not a the boy scout and not good using a version that was not considered the super boy scout. Basically attacking how one version is seen by using another separate version that is not the same. If you are going to attack his boyscout version right to the title you have to stick to what that version did and not drag in spereate ones to justfy the attack.

In truth the whole super man under the buss was a red haring by some one that does not want to admit the CS might be evil.

The question is the current cannon version of the CS over all actions good or evil by the PB standards. (The use of the PB standards was to avoid a philosophical debate on good and evil that the whole superman tangent basically is.)

[Pepsi Jedi]

No it wasn't. It was making a point. using the palladium alignment system. SUPERMAN, can not REMOTELY be of 'good alignment' It was other people trying to break him into 'different versions' of superman attempting the dodge.

The point remains. Using Palladium's alignment system Superman comes in at Anarchist, Diabolic or Miscreant.

This was pointed out, to show that the OP, had so many stipulations on it, that it wasn't actually asking a question, but instead was promoting a view point, in a way that could only be agreed with, or ignored. Due to the stipulations on the front end.

*Shrugs*

The op isn't actually a question. It's a statement in the form of a query.

[Alrik Vas]

The moment you have to split hairs in an argument about morality is the moment you lost sight of the discussion and only want to convince others you're right.

Kevin knows the CS is evil, he made them that way, but he also made them with a capacity for good, because the population is made of everyday people. It's a nearly a statement about how the callous actions of governments erodes the empathy of citizens, though I doubt it was conceptualized that way.

but seriously, who cares? Why does this need to be rehashed over and over again?

[flatline]

but seriously, who cares? Why does this need to be rehashed over and over again?

It's a polarizing topic. As such, the internet requires that we argue about it continuously.

[Nightmask]

Of course Superman can break the law, having a badge doesn't mean you're above the law (contrary to what some might think). Anytime he's shown using his X-Ray vision and super-hearing to look into a building he's breaking the law unless he's got a legally justifiable reason to be doing so, like having smelled meth being made in the area and tracking it to that building. It just empowers him with the abilities of a member of law enforcement to legally arrest and detain someone for a crime rather than being just a vigilante (and not sure but I think only the Silver Age version had the badge and even then that only applied in Metropolis).

Actually no. He's not.

You're making things up and aren't really up on your canon. If a police officer looks through your window and sees you hitting your wife, for example, they can interfere. Superman's not using an external device, his powers aren't even technically powers, his powers are his natural visual and auditory detecting capabilities. He has special deputy status so he is allowed to use force legally, and he is allowed to arrest legally, and he is allowed to stand trial (legally) under the name "Kal El."

In the Post-Crisis Era he was given permission to act unilaterally in every country that was a member of NATO or the United Nations.

So, no, his X-Ray vision? Nope. That is just how his eyes work. He's not using anything external. It is like if you have very keen hearing, you're allowed to use that as reasonable doubt.

I'm not making anything up and his powers are certainly powers, because last I checked being able to see through a solid, non-transparent barrier is not a normal human ability and Superman's regularly shown doing so in clear violation of the rights of people to not have someone intruding into their home and violating their right to privacy. Just because he doesn't need equipment to do it doesn't make it okay those laws don't say it's okay as long as how you're violating someone's privacy is natural to you. And again just because he's got a badge/police powers doesn't mean his actions are automatically legal and that he's no longer bound by the law he can and does in the comics break the law but prosecutors and the public in general don't hold him accountable for it letting him get away with those crimes because of how useful he is dealing with super-powered threats.

[Rallan]

They're unambiguously bad. They're the designated baddies in the books, they do terrible things like genocide, they ape both the style and the practices of despotic regimes, and they put skulls on everything.

Basically the Coalition States in Rifts is every bit as evil as the Imperium of Man in Warhammer 40K, only the CS doesn't even have any of the Imperium's excuses. Supernatural powers aren't inherently evil. Magic and psionics aren't inherently corrupting. D-Bees aren't inherently a threat to mankind's existence. Unorthodox ideologies don't inherently lead to madness and possession. Where the Imperium of Man is terrible because it's the only way they can survive in a universe that's even more terrible, the Coalition States is just terrible because it decided it wants to be a saturday morning cartoon baddy.

[HWalsh]

I'm not making anything up and his powers are certainly powers, because last I checked being able to see through a solid, non-transparent barrier is not a normal human ability

Superman's not human. Does a dog have super powers due to hearing? Does a bird have powers because it can fly? Those are normal Kryptonite traits when under a yellow sun.

and Superman's regularly shown doing so in clear violation of the rights of people to not have someone intruding into their home and violating their right to privacy.

And this was decided as I stated it in the courts of that universe. Hence, he's not breaking the law.

[Nightmask]

I'm not making anything up and his powers are certainly powers, because last I checked being able to see through a solid, non-transparent barrier is not a normal human ability

Superman's not human. Does a dog have super powers due to hearing? Does a bird have powers because it can fly? Those are normal Kryptonite traits when under a yellow sun.

Irrelevant because again the laws don't make exceptions that it's not a crime if you have a power that makes it possible to do something others might need technology for, a crime is a crime is a crime. The fact a Kryptonian doesn't need to drill a hole in your wall to watch you shower doesn't make him watching you shower via his X-ray Vision any less a crime it's still an invasion of privacy and it's ridiculous to try and argue otherwise. He also routinely disregarded the laws of Lexor in the Silver Age until the last time he did he ended up being the proximate cause for destroying the entire planet and killing everyone.

and Superman's regularly shown doing so in clear violation of the rights of people to not have someone intruding into their home and violating their right to privacy.

And this was decided as I stated it in the courts of that universe. Hence, he's not breaking the law.

There's no way Superman is legally empowered to invade the privacy of others in clear violation of the law, absolutely none. It would be a blatantly unconstitutional thing. While there are countries where the police can do pretty much anything that they want for countries like the US Superman cannot simply go around spying into people's houses using his super-powers because law-enforcement or not that's a crime.

[HWalsh]

There's no way Superman is legally empowered to invade the privacy of others in clear violation of the law, absolutely none. It would be a blatantly unconstitutional thing. While there are countries where the police can do pretty much anything that they want for countries like the US Superman cannot simply go around spying into people's houses using his super-powers because law-enforcement or not that's a crime.

You can disagree with it, but that doesn't change the fact about it. This was a thing. It happened. In that world the courts decided that Superman's hearing and sight were not breaches of privacy and he could act on them. You want to complain about it, fight with DC comics.

In any case, back to the Coalition and evil or not.

I think they, by alignment, are absolutely considered evil. While you might be able to try to breach that, "That isn't fair! Then everyone is evil!" That really doesn't work. The Coalition repeatedly, rather than one offs, those things that are considered evil.

[Proseksword]

The justness of a government that revokes 4th Amendment equivalent rights and the minions thereof not withstanding, I think everyone here understands exactly where you stand on this HWalsh. Your beating a dead horse, and this thread is a 10 lb sledgehammer.

[HWalsh]

Prosek - I dunno though. I think that you might be able to make the case for selfish rather than evil.

The thing that makes the Coalition compelling is their racism. You see them helping humans with an intensity that seems noble.

If a peaceful (non-magic using human) settlement gets attacked by demons and the CS will do whatever it takes to save them. They don't care about the cost, or even the benefit, of that settlement.

It is a good quality... If only it didn't come with the "non-magic using" and "human" qualifiers.

I think that's what tips the scales toward true evil. The tragic part of the CS is they could have really been a force for good at one time.

Now, from a narrative sense, they almost certainly have to be destroyed sooner or later.

[Alrik Vas]

but seriously, who cares? Why does this need to be rehashed over and over again?

It's a polarizing topic. As such, the internet requires that we argue about it continuously.

Well, if I must then I must.

The only good d-bee is one that goes back where it came from. Magic is heresy, only approved topics may be discussed, I'll report you to the commissar if I catch you reading.

The CS saved us from tolkeen's demon loving, it's no wonder that filth is coming out of their old nexus, now humanity had to clean up their mess.

This is our planet, get off my lawn.

Yadda yadda yadda

[kaid]

The CS leadership is pretty clearly evil and some are very self serving but in a world of literal demons and monsters running around in a lot of ways their policies are not wrong at least for themselves and their citizens. The biggest problem I have with them is their reaction to DBees and in general it is more of a wasting time hitting mosqitos with hammers.

As long as rifts are open you can't kill enough Dbees to matter. Best to just treat them as triax does. Don't encourage them but don't wast your time attacking non treats and potentially turning them into threats. Save your time and energy for bigger dangers and rifts earth has plenty of them.

[Proseksword]

Prosek - I dunno though. I think that you might be able to make the case for selfish rather than evil.

I don't know that the alignment system really works for countries, as some have said before. When it comes to the populace, we know many aren't evil. When it comes to the leadership, we just have to look at their character profiles to see that as far as Palladium is concerned, their mostly evil alignments.

The intriguing moral ambiguity of the Coalition States for me comes from the way its impossible to judge an individual purely by their actions. Someone mentally incompetent cannot be said to be responsible for a crime. Someone who killed in self defense because they were afraid for their life can be justified in their actions, even if the person they killed was later found to be not so great a threat.

Were a Cyber-Knight to be ambushed by a Gigantes and slew him, and it was later revealed it was a Scrupulous aligned Gigantes operating under the mind control of a Cernun Mystic, would we question the alignment of the Cyber-Knight? As best he knew, the Gigantes was out to kill him. Point in fact, the Gigantes would have killed him given the chance, because at the moment he had no free will.

Judging the Coalition States evil is very much dependent upon having an objective, outside understanding of the world. For the overwhelming majority of the people of the CS, they have no way of objectively knowing that d-bees aren't out to kill them and devour their flesh or that the magic spells cast by Ley Line Walkers won't backfire and endanger the entire community. How can you blame them for defending themselves & their family the only way they know how? Canonically speaking, we know there are whole species in the megaverse that are completely evil and desire to devour the flesh of other sentient beings AND that magic use has led to world-shattering disasters such as that which sunk Atlantis! How is the CS Citizen to definitively know whether a d-bee is truly friendly or a polymorphed demon? I don't think even Karl Prosek can be said to definitively know.

In a world such as RIFTs, paranoia is well-founded, and an overabundance of caution the only key to survival. Yes, innocent D-bees are getting killed, and it's terrible, but the Coalition is acting on the intelligence it has to fulfill the role of every government to the best of its abilities - to protect its people. So when the CS razes a 'burb to the ground, do they do it out of fear of what may lurk within, or do they do it for the lulz? Since it's most likely not the latter, I can't in good conscience condemn them for doing so, even while I might mourn the tragedy and hope for their future enlightenment.

[eliakon]

My question here...
While people have provided all sorts of reasons why the CS should be considered evil...
...People love to argue that the CS isn't really evil. Which suggests that there is some sort of actual, canonical support for the claim. I am curious to see some of it.
As the OP said though, it has to be actual reasons, since in their own eyes any one is justified. While I do not think that many people here would argue that the Spanish Inquisition, ISIS, the Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, or the Mafia are 'good' organizations, to members of each of them they ARE shining beacons of hope and light against what they deem to be evil. Its just that most people in our world do not consider "anyone who disagrees with me" as a valid definition of Evil.

And to be perfectly frank, when talking about good/evil in a game that has a detectable, in universe definition of good/evil it make sense to use it. One would not talk about the magnetic properties of materials based on their opinions of if something was a magnet... you would test it. In our world there is not (as far as we know) a way to test for good or evil, but in the Palladium Universe there is. Which means that while discussions of morality and good/evil in our world are philosophical...in Palladium it is a matter of physics.

[HWalsh]

My question here...
While people have provided all sorts of reasons why the CS should be considered evil...
...People love to argue that the CS isn't really evil. Which suggests that there is some sort of actual, canonical support for the claim. I am curious to see some of it.
As the OP said though, it has to be actual reasons, since in their own eyes any one is justified. While I do not think that many people here would argue that the Spanish Inquisition, ISIS, the Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, or the Mafia are 'good' organizations, to members of each of them they ARE shining beacons of hope and light against what they deem to be evil. Its just that most people in our world do not consider "anyone who disagrees with me" as a valid definition of Evil.

And to be perfectly frank, when talking about good/evil in a game that has a detectable, in universe definition of good/evil it make sense to use it. One would not talk about the magnetic properties of materials based on their opinions of if something was a magnet... you would test it. In our world there is not (as far as we know) a way to test for good or evil, but in the Palladium Universe there is. Which means that while discussions of morality and good/evil in our world are philosophical...in Palladium it is a matter of physics.

See, I think people just defend the CS because they like playing CS characters. They don't like being told that they are fans of the evil team. I don't get it though...
I've played CS characters before, kool-aid drinking, deebee hating, magic fearing, illiterate CS characters. They were fun. Its not real. It is a fictional character.
I've played full on mustache twirling Antipaladins. Evil vampires. Dark Lords of the Sith. There is nothing wrong with it.
There is nothing wrong that saying, "In character, with a character who believed the propaganda, that character would support the CS."

Canonically, using our objective view of things, we all know the CS is evil. They are the most powerful evil in North America. They are the Nazis. They are the evil Empire. They are every evil group in the history of humanity rolled into one. That is what makes them great villains.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The books say straight up that the CS by and large is made up of good and or selfish people. While their leadership can be, at times, (Many times) "Evil" The evil is bent to 'good' ends for humanity.

The Emp actually BELIEVES his words. He's not just feeding people a line. (His son on the other hand is actively manipualative).

The majority of the CS don't act in 'evil' ways. They don't see a difference between fighting an army of Demons and an army of Dbees.

We, as 'readers' know there can be a difference, because we've read all the book. In the game world, the CS citizen has grown up with the 'knowledge' that these things are true. That magic is evil and even using a little magic opens one up to corruption, and the supernatural. They're raised "Knowing" That mages and Dbees are dangerous. So they don't question it.

This is helped by such a huge number of people being in the CS military and 'witnessing' the evil of magic and Dbees first hand. How so? Well the Mages see Dead Boys coming and suddenly there's a fight. The mages think (Perhaps correctly) That thre CS will kill them on sight. The CS think, the mages will kill them on sight. So they battle. Everyone knows someon in the military who's fought in the wars, likely knows someone that's died. (Remember estimated population of the CS is like 24-35 million and they have 9 million under arms now... so roughly 1 in 3 people have been or are now in active military service.)

People forget, that due to the climate, it's not like mages and Dbees come strolling up to the CS and try and make buddies either. They know the CS is a threat and treat them as such. (Rightly so) So the hostilities are on both sides.

If you're raised from birth to see Magic and Dbees as the same as Demons and Devils.. then you treat them the same.

Killing demons and Devils isn't 'evil', heck it's an act of 'Good' to battle evil, to destroy evil. Noone cries when a Hero of Light takes out a bunch of demons. He's a -hero- for that.

Same thing for the CS. When a human in the CS takes out a bunch of demons he's not some murderer. he's a hero! He's taken out threats to humanity that everyone KNOOOOOOOOWS is nothing but evil. Noone argues it! Horay for him!

In the CS, it's the same for Mages or Dbees. They 'know' them to be 'evil' so killing them isn't an act of evil but an act of heroism.

It's a matter of perception and ignorance. Not 'evil'.

Now.. with all that said there's still some EVIL schmucks that just want to kill things and do evil acts, but that's not a 'society' thing, that's a 'Some humans are just murdering schmucks" thing.

[HWalsh]

The books say straight up that the CS by and large is made up of good and or selfish people. While their leadership can be, at times, (Many times) "Evil" The evil is bent to 'good' ends for humanity.

Good people in the evil empire doesn't make the empire good. That is a myth. That is even touched on in my original post. This isn't about that.

The Emp actually BELIEVES his words. He's not just feeding people a line. (His son on the other hand is actively manipualative).

No he doesn't. Karl Prosek? He is feeding a line. Joseph is better at it, but the Emperor knows they use propaganda, he knows that the things he targets aren't as bad as he claims they are. He knows he manipulates. That is outright stated in the books.

The majority of the CS don't act in 'evil' ways. They don't see a difference between fighting an army of Demons and an army of Dbees.

Nobody is talking about individual soldiers. However the majority of "good" characters in the CS would have problems with things. Like, for example, gunning down children. Then they refuse to... And are killed by their own companions... This is canonical. Yes, there are a lot of Good people in the CS. There are also a lot of complete holes. The problem is the complete holes are in charge. That is how this is judged, on the actions of the Empire as a whole.

We, as 'readers' know there can be a difference, because we've read all the book. In the game world, the CS citizen has grown up with the 'knowledge' that these things are true. That magic is evil and even using a little magic opens one up to corruption, and the supernatural. They're raised "Knowing" That mages and Dbees are dangerous. So they don't question it.

Again. This ENTIRE thread is being taken from the OBJECTIVE perspective. Not from the perspective of the CS. Palladium doesn't use subjective morality, it is objective morality. Thus the arguments of, "Well they think they are good." Doesn't matter. Genocide of people who aren't trying to kill you, who are fleeing from you, who are children is evil. Period. It doesn't matter if you think they are evil magic users or not.

This is helped by such a huge number of people being in the CS military and 'witnessing' the evil of magic and Dbees first hand. How so? Well the Mages see Dead Boys coming and suddenly there's a fight. The mages think (Perhaps correctly) That thre CS will kill them on sight.

Perhaps? Oh no. The CS will to kill them.

The CS think, the mages will kill them on sight. So they battle. Everyone knows someon in the military who's fought in the wars, likely knows someone that's died. (Remember estimated population of the CS is like 24-35 million and they have 9 million under arms now... so roughly 1 in 3 people have been or are now in active military service.)

People forget, that due to the climate, it's not like mages and Dbees come strolling up to the CS and try and make buddies either. They know the CS is a threat and treat them as such. (Rightly so) So the hostilities are on both sides.

This isn't true. Not all Deebee's know that the CS is a threat. Many innocent DeeBee's come out of the rifts completely and totally unaware of what the CS is.

If you're raised from birth to see Magic and Dbees as the same as Demons and Devils.. then you treat them the same.

That doesn't excuse it. Evil is evil. In a universe, like Rifts, where morality isn't subjective, you can totally be evil while thinking you aren't.

Killing demons and Devils isn't 'evil', heck it's an act of 'Good' to battle evil, to destroy evil. Noone cries when a Hero of Light takes out a bunch of demons. He's a -hero- for that.

Yeah, because the Hero of Light is usually fighting demons who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him.

Same thing for the CS. When a human in the CS takes out a bunch of demons he's not some murderer. he's a hero! He's taken out threats to humanity that everyone KNOOOOOOOOWS is nothing but evil. Noone argues it! Horay for him!

Again. Just because he thinks he's good doesn't change anything. Look at the good alignments. There are rules there.

Principled and Scrupulous:
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.

This one doesn't care if you think they are good or bad. If they are unarmed and aren't trying to fight. You can't do that if you are good.

In the CS, it's the same for Mages or Dbees. They 'know' them to be 'evil' so killing them isn't an act of evil but an act of heroism.

It's a matter of perception and ignorance. Not 'evil'.

See above.

Now.. with all that said there's still some EVIL schmucks that just want to kill things and do evil acts, but that's not a 'society' thing, that's a 'Some humans are just murdering schmucks" thing.

Unfortunately most of the principled and/or scrupulous soldiers in the CS wouldn't be principled or scrupulous for very long. If they were at Tolkeen most of them are probably dead by their own allies.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The books say straight up that the CS by and large is made up of good and or selfish people. While their leadership can be, at times, (Many times) "Evil" The evil is bent to 'good' ends for humanity.

Good people in the evil empire doesn't make the empire good. That is a myth. That is even touched on in my original post. This isn't about that.

No. That's your opinion. Eliakon had asked for canonial support. in CWC it straight up says the majority of people in the CS are good or selfish. Which means the minority is evil. THUS.. it depends on how one defines a good or evil empire. The leadership is often evil, but the people aren't.

The Emp actually BELIEVES his words. He's not just feeding people a line. (His son on the other hand is actively manipualative).

No he doesn't. Karl Prosek? He is feeding a line. Joseph is better at it, but the Emperor knows they use propaganda, he knows that the things he targets aren't as bad as he claims they are. He knows he manipulates. That is outright stated in the books.

Well.. Lets see... Just from what I read last night.

Heroes of Humanity. Page 9
"Dispute what some of his critics may say about him, Karl Prosek sincerely believes in this cold harsh "Truth" with every fiber of his being"

Now... that's pretty explicitly clear that I was correct. This is after half a page expounding how the minion war has demonstraighted his viewpoints justified.

Not trying to be nit picky but "Dispute what some of his critics may say about him, Karl Prosek sincerely believes in this cold harsh "Truth" with every fiber of his being" Is not only very clear, it points straight at you for being wrong.

The majority of the CS don't act in 'evil' ways. They don't see a difference between fighting an army of Demons and an army of Dbees.

Nobody is talking about individual soldiers.

I think I was pretty clear when, I said "THE MAJORITY".

However the majority of "good" characters in the CS would have problems with things.

Depends on the things. (Not trying to be funny)

Like, for example, gunning down children.

Again you're ignoring the situation though. A) Many do have problems with that. They feel bad about it, but.... B) You're looking at things from a 'meta' perspective. I.E. above. Like a god gazing down from the heavens. You have 'all' the information from the books and can look down and 'know' that some viewpoints are wrong or misguided. You're failing to appreciate the SETTING.

Again I point you back to the 'Demon' problem. "Heroes" can kill demons by the thousands and be though heroic, but killing 'Dbees' by the thousands and you say it's evil. In the CS they see little if any difference between the two. "Demon" is another 'type' of "DBee". If you're raised from day 1, to believe, that Demons are evil, and trying to kill humanity, and dbees are evil and trying to kill humanity, then killing demons and dbees is NOt evil, it's heroic. You're saving humanity by fighting off inhuman threats.
Now... killing kids can be hard, but again you're looking at it meta. In Rifts, a kid might not be a kid. It might be a 2,000 year old great horned dragon that can --literally-- rip you in half and laugh while doing it. That or being a DBee, it might not age like humans. They may get smaller and look 'younger' as they age. Or they may 'only' age to look about 5 or 6 but infact be an adult. They're aliens, They might not work on any preconceived notion you have. This is ADDRESSED DIRECTLY IN THE BOOK. There's an aside about "Thought the Dbee was a kid and it took out my best friend (Or squad, something or another).

If killing 'Evil" is ok, and you're not looked down upon for it but instead are risen up, then the people doing so aren't 'evil' in and of themselves. Unless you can call the 'genocide of demons and deevils' an evil act, you can't say that the CS citizens are performing evil acts when they do such (FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE).

Then they refuse to... And are killed by their own companions... This is canonical.

This circles back around to the "Some people in the army are sadistic evil people. And sometimes they get in power" Yes, that sort of thing is canonical. So is some of the troops go of women and or children when they don't think they'll get caught, etc.

You find that the SoT (and now minion war) Justify the CS's fears, and 'paint' mages, dbees and supernatural creatures in exactly the light that YES the propaganda machine does, and exasperates the presumption.

Yes, there are a lot of Good people in the CS. There are also a lot of complete holes.

As with any nation. Even ours.

The problem is the complete holes are in charge. That is how this is judged, on the actions of the Empire as a whole.

That is A problem yes. The actions of the empire as a whole also Safe guard the lives of millions of humans and defend them with a zealousness seen few places elsewhere on earth. You're choosing ONE ASPECT and focusing on it.

if you only do that, you paint what ever picture you want. if you ignore the bad and focus on ONE ASPECT "the CS keeps millions of humans alive every day in a hostile planet full of alien invaders, supernatural evil , armies of the undead and alien intelligences" Then they look like heroes.

The truth isn't so simple. the truth is.. they're BOTH.

We, as 'readers' know there can be a difference, because we've read all the book. In the game world, the CS citizen has grown up with the 'knowledge' that these things are true. That magic is evil and even using a little magic opens one up to corruption, and the supernatural. They're raised "Knowing" That mages and Dbees are dangerous. So they don't question it.

Again. This ENTIRE thread is being taken from the OBJECTIVE perspective. Not from the perspective of the CS. Palladium doesn't use subjective morality, it is objective morality.

There's many many pages in multiple books about the topic (The CS) that say you're wrong. And again, this claim you've made circles back around to "The way you set it up, you're not asking a question, you're trying to stear other people to accept your statement. The CS does alot of good as well. You're just refusing to acknowledge that part.

Thus the arguments of, "Well they think they are good."

no. CWC tells us in direct terms, the majority of the Cs ___ARE__Good, or Selfish. Not evil. Not 'thinks' (Which they do think they are) but tells us directly their alignments.

Doesn't matter. Genocide of people who aren't trying to kill you, who are fleeing from you, who are children is evil. Period. It doesn't matter if you think they are evil magic users or not.

Of course it does. All morality is subjective. ALL of it. It's 100% fabricated by humans. It's not a scientific constant. More over the CS contend that the people aren't trying to flee, and 'children' mean little when they're aliens and might rip off your head a few minutes after being born. (Literally. Dragons, alien Dimensional beings from another planet/universe, can do such minutes after birth. it's not an exaggeration. So can many Dbees with superhuman or supernatural strength).

Again you're throwing around 'Genocide' but.. we don't call fighting the armies of Hell "Genocide" though.. it is. That's 'being a hero"

This is helped by such a huge number of people being in the CS military and 'witnessing' the evil of magic and Dbees first hand. How so? Well the Mages see Dead Boys coming and suddenly there's a fight. The mages think (Perhaps correctly) That thre CS will kill them on sight.

Perhaps? Oh no. The CS will to kill them

Not always. Sometimes. Funny enough. LESS NOW THAN BEFORE. There's an entire section in the new book that goes on at length. not only talking about letting Magical and Dbee forces live, but letting them fight the demons. if they do a good job. Letting them go to fight more demons. It's even common practice to help supply them if needed. Food and or medical supplies might.. "Fall off a truck"

it goes into this, now it's not 100% on either side. it's clear to say some people be they CS Humans or Dbees or mages can't 'forvgive' and they try and kill one another.

but the CS is starting to bend, during the war. The section also goes into detail about how this is dangerous for the CS. That troops in the field, are seeing that 'Not EVERY Dbee or Mage is a supervillian. Some fight just as hard as the CS to kill the demons."

So alas, you're not correct... again.

The CS think, the mages will kill them on sight. So they battle. Everyone knows someon in the military who's fought in the wars, likely knows someone that's died. (Remember estimated population of the CS is like 24-35 million and they have 9 million under arms now... so roughly 1 in 3 people have been or are now in active military service.)

People forget, that due to the climate, it's not like mages and Dbees come strolling up to the CS and try and make buddies either. They know the CS is a threat and treat them as such. (Rightly so) So the hostilities are on both sides.

This isn't true. Not all Deebee's know that the CS is a threat. Many innocent DeeBee's come out of the rifts completely and totally unaware of what the CS is.

Oh give me a break. Speeking of generalities here Walsh. Clearly so. No a Dbee that fell through the rift 5 minutes before may not know the guys dressed as skeletons packing mega damage blasters aren't friendly... but come on. In the setting it's a 'known' fact that the CS aren't buddies with mages or Dbees. Heck it's known on other planets and in other dimensions.

If you're raised from birth to see Magic and Dbees as the same as Demons and Devils.. then you treat them the same.

That doesn't excuse it. Evil is evil. In a universe, like Rifts, where morality isn't subjective, you can totally be evil while thinking you aren't.

Not only is ALL MORALITY 100% subjective, we're 100% told in the books, THIS IS 100% WHY the majority of CS citizens are NOT evil. It's literally explained, point for point in CWC

Killing demons and Devils isn't 'evil', heck it's an act of 'Good' to battle evil, to destroy evil. Noone cries when a Hero of Light takes out a bunch of demons. He's a -hero- for that.

Yeah, because the Hero of Light is usually fighting demons who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him.

Now take a very close look at your quote there. "Fighting demons who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him."

Well neither is fighting Dbees who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him"

Remember "Demon" is just a TYPE of DBee. "Dimensional being' it's a sub catagory. To the CS they're almost synonyms. They're told from the start, they're both intrinsicly evil and here to kill you or at best invade your world.

If you're ok with Demonic Genocide, you can't complain about Dimensional being genocide. Genocide is genocide.

Same thing for the CS. When a human in the CS takes out a bunch of demons he's not some murderer. he's a hero! He's taken out threats to humanity that everyone KNOOOOOOOOWS is nothing but evil. Noone argues it! Horay for him!

Again. Just because he thinks he's good doesn't change anything. Look at the good alignments. There are rules there.

Oh there are, and they're stupid. lol As pointed out and proven, "Superman" the ultimate good guy, is Evil by palladium's alignment system.

Principled and Scrupulous:
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.

This one doesn't care if you think they are good or bad. If they are unarmed and aren't trying to fight. You can't do that if you are good.

Demons and Dbees are considered "Armed" because they possess supernatural strength that could pop your head like a grape, or have alien powers that could affect you otherwise. So there fore no Demon or Dbee is considered 'unarmed', by those in the CS.

In the CS, it's the same for Mages or Dbees. They 'know' them to be 'evil' so killing them isn't an act of evil but an act of heroism.

It's a matter of perception and ignorance. Not 'evil'.

See above.

It's still true, if you're ok with Demonic genocide then you can't change the rules for other genocides. It's ALL a matter of perception.

Now.. with all that said there's still some EVIL schmucks that just want to kill things and do evil acts, but that's not a 'society' thing, that's a 'Some humans are just murdering schmucks" thing.

Unfortunately most of the principled and/or scrupulous soldiers in the CS wouldn't be principled or scrupulous for very long. If they were at Tolkeen most of them are probably dead by their own allies.

Untrue. We're told in the books clearly not only are most of the troops good or selfish, that DUE TO THE SUBJECTIVE NATURE OF MORALITY, that they are not knocked down the alignment scale for the actions.

If you can be a heroic paladin of light killing demons because someone growing up told you they were evil.
you can be a heroic paladin (In Dead boy armor) Killing Demons and Dbees because someone growing up told you they were evil.

Yes, that's how it works. How do we know? because kevin has said that's --exactly-- how it works, in the books.

Yes, in this instance, from a META perspective, the CS are wrong on some things, but that doesn't change the other facts of their own existence.

Edit: Small note. The "horrors of war" and what one does in war may very well degrade one's alignment down the scale. But that goes for anyone in any war. War is hell and people do things they never thought they would, but the killing of your enemy in war, an enemy you've been bread to see as 100% evil no matter what, will not, in and of itself, move you down the alignment chart.

[HWalsh]

The books say straight up that the CS by and large is made up of good and or selfish people. While their leadership can be, at times, (Many times) "Evil" The evil is bent to 'good' ends for humanity.

Good people in the evil empire doesn't make the empire good. That is a myth. That is even touched on in my original post. This isn't about that.

No. That's your opinion. Eliakon had asked for canonial support. in CWC it straight up says the majority of people in the CS are good or selfish. Which means the minority is evil. THUS.. it depends on how one defines a good or evil empire. The leadership is often evil, but the people aren't.

The Emp actually BELIEVES his words. He's not just feeding people a line. (His son on the other hand is actively manipualative).

No he doesn't. Karl Prosek? He is feeding a line. Joseph is better at it, but the Emperor knows they use propaganda, he knows that the things he targets aren't as bad as he claims they are. He knows he manipulates. That is outright stated in the books.

Well.. Lets see... Just from what I read last night.

Heroes of Humanity. Page 9
"Dispute what some of his critics may say about him, Karl Prosek sincerely believes in this cold harsh "Truth" with every fiber of his being"

Now... that's pretty explicitly clear that I was correct. This is after half a page expounding how the minion war has demonstraighted his viewpoints justified.

Not trying to be nit picky but "Dispute what some of his critics may say about him, Karl Prosek sincerely believes in this cold harsh "Truth" with every fiber of his being" Is not only very clear, it points straight at you for being wrong.

The majority of the CS don't act in 'evil' ways. They don't see a difference between fighting an army of Demons and an army of Dbees.

Nobody is talking about individual soldiers.

I think I was pretty clear when, I said "THE MAJORITY".

However the majority of "good" characters in the CS would have problems with things.

Depends on the things. (Not trying to be funny)

Like, for example, gunning down children.

Again you're ignoring the situation though. A) Many do have problems with that. They feel bad about it, but.... B) You're looking at things from a 'meta' perspective. I.E. above. Like a god gazing down from the heavens. You have 'all' the information from the books and can look down and 'know' that some viewpoints are wrong or misguided. You're failing to appreciate the SETTING.

Again I point you back to the 'Demon' problem. "Heroes" can kill demons by the thousands and be though heroic, but killing 'Dbees' by the thousands and you say it's evil. In the CS they see little if any difference between the two. "Demon" is another 'type' of "DBee". If you're raised from day 1, to believe, that Demons are evil, and trying to kill humanity, and dbees are evil and trying to kill humanity, then killing demons and dbees is NOt evil, it's heroic. You're saving humanity by fighting off inhuman threats.
Now... killing kids can be hard, but again you're looking at it meta. In Rifts, a kid might not be a kid. It might be a 2,000 year old great horned dragon that can --literally-- rip you in half and laugh while doing it. That or being a DBee, it might not age like humans. They may get smaller and look 'younger' as they age. Or they may 'only' age to look about 5 or 6 but infact be an adult. They're aliens, They might not work on any preconceived notion you have. This is ADDRESSED DIRECTLY IN THE BOOK. There's an aside about "Thought the Dbee was a kid and it took out my best friend (Or squad, something or another).

If killing 'Evil" is ok, and you're not looked down upon for it but instead are risen up, then the people doing so aren't 'evil' in and of themselves. Unless you can call the 'genocide of demons and deevils' an evil act, you can't say that the CS citizens are performing evil acts when they do such (FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE).

Then they refuse to... And are killed by their own companions... This is canonical.

This circles back around to the "Some people in the army are sadistic evil people. And sometimes they get in power" Yes, that sort of thing is canonical. So is some of the troops go of women and or children when they don't think they'll get caught, etc.

You find that the SoT (and now minion war) Justify the CS's fears, and 'paint' mages, dbees and supernatural creatures in exactly the light that YES the propaganda machine does, and exasperates the presumption.

Yes, there are a lot of Good people in the CS. There are also a lot of complete holes.

As with any nation. Even ours.

The problem is the complete holes are in charge. That is how this is judged, on the actions of the Empire as a whole.

That is A problem yes. The actions of the empire as a whole also Safe guard the lives of millions of humans and defend them with a zealousness seen few places elsewhere on earth. You're choosing ONE ASPECT and focusing on it.

if you only do that, you paint what ever picture you want. if you ignore the bad and focus on ONE ASPECT "the CS keeps millions of humans alive every day in a hostile planet full of alien invaders, supernatural evil , armies of the undead and alien intelligences" Then they look like heroes.

The truth isn't so simple. the truth is.. they're BOTH.

We, as 'readers' know there can be a difference, because we've read all the book. In the game world, the CS citizen has grown up with the 'knowledge' that these things are true. That magic is evil and even using a little magic opens one up to corruption, and the supernatural. They're raised "Knowing" That mages and Dbees are dangerous. So they don't question it.

Again. This ENTIRE thread is being taken from the OBJECTIVE perspective. Not from the perspective of the CS. Palladium doesn't use subjective morality, it is objective morality.

There's many many pages in multiple books about the topic (The CS) that say you're wrong. And again, this claim you've made circles back around to "The way you set it up, you're not asking a question, you're trying to stear other people to accept your statement. The CS does alot of good as well. You're just refusing to acknowledge that part.

Thus the arguments of, "Well they think they are good."

no. CWC tells us in direct terms, the majority of the Cs ___ARE__Good, or Selfish. Not evil. Not 'thinks' (Which they do think they are) but tells us directly their alignments.

Doesn't matter. Genocide of people who aren't trying to kill you, who are fleeing from you, who are children is evil. Period. It doesn't matter if you think they are evil magic users or not.

Of course it does. All morality is subjective. ALL of it. It's 100% fabricated by humans. It's not a scientific constant. More over the CS contend that the people aren't trying to flee, and 'children' mean little when they're aliens and might rip off your head a few minutes after being born. (Literally. Dragons, alien Dimensional beings from another planet/universe, can do such minutes after birth. it's not an exaggeration. So can many Dbees with superhuman or supernatural strength).

Again you're throwing around 'Genocide' but.. we don't call fighting the armies of Hell "Genocide" though.. it is. That's 'being a hero"

This is helped by such a huge number of people being in the CS military and 'witnessing' the evil of magic and Dbees first hand. How so? Well the Mages see Dead Boys coming and suddenly there's a fight. The mages think (Perhaps correctly) That thre CS will kill them on sight.

Perhaps? Oh no. The CS will to kill them

Not always. Sometimes. Funny enough. LESS NOW THAN BEFORE. There's an entire section in the new book that goes on at length. not only talking about letting Magical and Dbee forces live, but letting them fight the demons. if they do a good job. Letting them go to fight more demons. It's even common practice to help supply them if needed. Food and or medical supplies might.. "Fall off a truck"

it goes into this, now it's not 100% on either side. it's clear to say some people be they CS Humans or Dbees or mages can't 'forvgive' and they try and kill one another.

but the CS is starting to bend, during the war. The section also goes into detail about how this is dangerous for the CS. That troops in the field, are seeing that 'Not EVERY Dbee or Mage is a supervillian. Some fight just as hard as the CS to kill the demons."

So alas, you're not correct... again.

The CS think, the mages will kill them on sight. So they battle. Everyone knows someon in the military who's fought in the wars, likely knows someone that's died. (Remember estimated population of the CS is like 24-35 million and they have 9 million under arms now... so roughly 1 in 3 people have been or are now in active military service.)

People forget, that due to the climate, it's not like mages and Dbees come strolling up to the CS and try and make buddies either. They know the CS is a threat and treat them as such. (Rightly so) So the hostilities are on both sides.

This isn't true. Not all Deebee's know that the CS is a threat. Many innocent DeeBee's come out of the rifts completely and totally unaware of what the CS is.

Oh give me a break. Speeking of generalities here Walsh. Clearly so. No a Dbee that fell through the rift 5 minutes before may not know the guys dressed as skeletons packing mega damage blasters aren't friendly... but come on. In the setting it's a 'known' fact that the CS aren't buddies with mages or Dbees. Heck it's known on other planets and in other dimensions.

If you're raised from birth to see Magic and Dbees as the same as Demons and Devils.. then you treat them the same.

That doesn't excuse it. Evil is evil. In a universe, like Rifts, where morality isn't subjective, you can totally be evil while thinking you aren't.

Not only is ALL MORALITY 100% subjective, we're 100% told in the books, THIS IS 100% WHY the majority of CS citizens are NOT evil. It's literally explained, point for point in CWC

Killing demons and Devils isn't 'evil', heck it's an act of 'Good' to battle evil, to destroy evil. Noone cries when a Hero of Light takes out a bunch of demons. He's a -hero- for that.

Yeah, because the Hero of Light is usually fighting demons who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him.

Now take a very close look at your quote there. "Fighting demons who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him."

Well neither is fighting Dbees who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him"

Remember "Demon" is just a TYPE of DBee. "Dimensional being' it's a sub catagory. To the CS they're almost synonyms. They're told from the start, they're both intrinsicly evil and here to kill you or at best invade your world.

If you're ok with Demonic Genocide, you can't complain about Dimensional being genocide. Genocide is genocide.

Same thing for the CS. When a human in the CS takes out a bunch of demons he's not some murderer. he's a hero! He's taken out threats to humanity that everyone KNOOOOOOOOWS is nothing but evil. Noone argues it! Horay for him!

Again. Just because he thinks he's good doesn't change anything. Look at the good alignments. There are rules there.

Oh there are, and they're stupid. lol As pointed out and proven, "Superman" the ultimate good guy, is Evil by palladium's alignment system.

Principled and Scrupulous:
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.

This one doesn't care if you think they are good or bad. If they are unarmed and aren't trying to fight. You can't do that if you are good.

Demons and Dbees are considered "Armed" because they possess supernatural strength that could pop your head like a grape, or have alien powers that could affect you otherwise. So there fore no Demon or Dbee is considered 'unarmed', by those in the CS.

In the CS, it's the same for Mages or Dbees. They 'know' them to be 'evil' so killing them isn't an act of evil but an act of heroism.

It's a matter of perception and ignorance. Not 'evil'.

See above.

It's still true, if you're ok with Demonic genocide then you can't change the rules for other genocides. It's ALL a matter of perception.

Now.. with all that said there's still some EVIL schmucks that just want to kill things and do evil acts, but that's not a 'society' thing, that's a 'Some humans are just murdering schmucks" thing.

Unfortunately most of the principled and/or scrupulous soldiers in the CS wouldn't be principled or scrupulous for very long. If they were at Tolkeen most of them are probably dead by their own allies.

Untrue. We're told in the books clearly not only are most of the troops good or selfish, that DUE TO THE SUBJECTIVE NATURE OF MORALITY, that they are not knocked down the alignment scale for the actions.

If you can be a heroic paladin of light killing demons because someone growing up told you they were evil.
you can be a heroic paladin (In Dead boy armor) Killing Demons and Dbees because someone growing up told you they were evil.

Yes, that's how it works. How do we know? because kevin has said that's --exactly-- how it works, in the books.

Yes, in this instance, from a META perspective, the CS are wrong on some things, but that doesn't change the other facts of their own existence.

Edit: Small note. The "horrors of war" and what one does in war may very well degrade one's alignment down the scale. But that goes for anyone in any war. War is hell and people do things they never thought they would, but the killing of your enemy in war, an enemy you've been bread to see as 100% evil no matter what, will not, in and of itself, move you down the alignment chart.

No. Simply no.

Morality isn't subjective in a world where evil can be sensed.

The CS is evil. Got canonical statements to that effect.

Kevin S.
"They are the bad guys that people love to hate."

And yes. In this thread we DO look at things from the objective stance. So please follow the rules in this thread. Thank you.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The books say straight up that the CS by and large is made up of good and or selfish people. While their leadership can be, at times, (Many times) "Evil" The evil is bent to 'good' ends for humanity.

Good people in the evil empire doesn't make the empire good. That is a myth. That is even touched on in my original post. This isn't about that.

No. That's your opinion. Eliakon had asked for canonial support. in CWC it straight up says the majority of people in the CS are good or selfish. Which means the minority is evil. THUS.. it depends on how one defines a good or evil empire. The leadership is often evil, but the people aren't.

The Emp actually BELIEVES his words. He's not just feeding people a line. (His son on the other hand is actively manipualative).

No he doesn't. Karl Prosek? He is feeding a line. Joseph is better at it, but the Emperor knows they use propaganda, he knows that the things he targets aren't as bad as he claims they are. He knows he manipulates. That is outright stated in the books.

Well.. Lets see... Just from what I read last night.

Heroes of Humanity. Page 9
"Dispute what some of his critics may say about him, Karl Prosek sincerely believes in this cold harsh "Truth" with every fiber of his being"

Now... that's pretty explicitly clear that I was correct. This is after half a page expounding how the minion war has demonstraighted his viewpoints justified.

Not trying to be nit picky but "Dispute what some of his critics may say about him, Karl Prosek sincerely believes in this cold harsh "Truth" with every fiber of his being" Is not only very clear, it points straight at you for being wrong.

The majority of the CS don't act in 'evil' ways. They don't see a difference between fighting an army of Demons and an army of Dbees.

Nobody is talking about individual soldiers.

I think I was pretty clear when, I said "THE MAJORITY".

However the majority of "good" characters in the CS would have problems with things.

Depends on the things. (Not trying to be funny)

Like, for example, gunning down children.

Again you're ignoring the situation though. A) Many do have problems with that. They feel bad about it, but.... B) You're looking at things from a 'meta' perspective. I.E. above. Like a god gazing down from the heavens. You have 'all' the information from the books and can look down and 'know' that some viewpoints are wrong or misguided. You're failing to appreciate the SETTING.

Again I point you back to the 'Demon' problem. "Heroes" can kill demons by the thousands and be though heroic, but killing 'Dbees' by the thousands and you say it's evil. In the CS they see little if any difference between the two. "Demon" is another 'type' of "DBee". If you're raised from day 1, to believe, that Demons are evil, and trying to kill humanity, and dbees are evil and trying to kill humanity, then killing demons and dbees is NOt evil, it's heroic. You're saving humanity by fighting off inhuman threats.
Now... killing kids can be hard, but again you're looking at it meta. In Rifts, a kid might not be a kid. It might be a 2,000 year old great horned dragon that can --literally-- rip you in half and laugh while doing it. That or being a DBee, it might not age like humans. They may get smaller and look 'younger' as they age. Or they may 'only' age to look about 5 or 6 but infact be an adult. They're aliens, They might not work on any preconceived notion you have. This is ADDRESSED DIRECTLY IN THE BOOK. There's an aside about "Thought the Dbee was a kid and it took out my best friend (Or squad, something or another).

If killing 'Evil" is ok, and you're not looked down upon for it but instead are risen up, then the people doing so aren't 'evil' in and of themselves. Unless you can call the 'genocide of demons and deevils' an evil act, you can't say that the CS citizens are performing evil acts when they do such (FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE).

Then they refuse to... And are killed by their own companions... This is canonical.

This circles back around to the "Some people in the army are sadistic evil people. And sometimes they get in power" Yes, that sort of thing is canonical. So is some of the troops go of women and or children when they don't think they'll get caught, etc.

You find that the SoT (and now minion war) Justify the CS's fears, and 'paint' mages, dbees and supernatural creatures in exactly the light that YES the propaganda machine does, and exasperates the presumption.

Yes, there are a lot of Good people in the CS. There are also a lot of complete holes.

As with any nation. Even ours.

The problem is the complete holes are in charge. That is how this is judged, on the actions of the Empire as a whole.

That is A problem yes. The actions of the empire as a whole also Safe guard the lives of millions of humans and defend them with a zealousness seen few places elsewhere on earth. You're choosing ONE ASPECT and focusing on it.

if you only do that, you paint what ever picture you want. if you ignore the bad and focus on ONE ASPECT "the CS keeps millions of humans alive every day in a hostile planet full of alien invaders, supernatural evil , armies of the undead and alien intelligences" Then they look like heroes.

The truth isn't so simple. the truth is.. they're BOTH.

We, as 'readers' know there can be a difference, because we've read all the book. In the game world, the CS citizen has grown up with the 'knowledge' that these things are true. That magic is evil and even using a little magic opens one up to corruption, and the supernatural. They're raised "Knowing" That mages and Dbees are dangerous. So they don't question it.

Again. This ENTIRE thread is being taken from the OBJECTIVE perspective. Not from the perspective of the CS. Palladium doesn't use subjective morality, it is objective morality.

There's many many pages in multiple books about the topic (The CS) that say you're wrong. And again, this claim you've made circles back around to "The way you set it up, you're not asking a question, you're trying to stear other people to accept your statement. The CS does alot of good as well. You're just refusing to acknowledge that part.

Thus the arguments of, "Well they think they are good."

no. CWC tells us in direct terms, the majority of the Cs ___ARE__Good, or Selfish. Not evil. Not 'thinks' (Which they do think they are) but tells us directly their alignments.

Doesn't matter. Genocide of people who aren't trying to kill you, who are fleeing from you, who are children is evil. Period. It doesn't matter if you think they are evil magic users or not.

Of course it does. All morality is subjective. ALL of it. It's 100% fabricated by humans. It's not a scientific constant. More over the CS contend that the people aren't trying to flee, and 'children' mean little when they're aliens and might rip off your head a few minutes after being born. (Literally. Dragons, alien Dimensional beings from another planet/universe, can do such minutes after birth. it's not an exaggeration. So can many Dbees with superhuman or supernatural strength).

Again you're throwing around 'Genocide' but.. we don't call fighting the armies of Hell "Genocide" though.. it is. That's 'being a hero"

This is helped by such a huge number of people being in the CS military and 'witnessing' the evil of magic and Dbees first hand. How so? Well the Mages see Dead Boys coming and suddenly there's a fight. The mages think (Perhaps correctly) That thre CS will kill them on sight.

Perhaps? Oh no. The CS will to kill them

Not always. Sometimes. Funny enough. LESS NOW THAN BEFORE. There's an entire section in the new book that goes on at length. not only talking about letting Magical and Dbee forces live, but letting them fight the demons. if they do a good job. Letting them go to fight more demons. It's even common practice to help supply them if needed. Food and or medical supplies might.. "Fall off a truck"

it goes into this, now it's not 100% on either side. it's clear to say some people be they CS Humans or Dbees or mages can't 'forvgive' and they try and kill one another.

but the CS is starting to bend, during the war. The section also goes into detail about how this is dangerous for the CS. That troops in the field, are seeing that 'Not EVERY Dbee or Mage is a supervillian. Some fight just as hard as the CS to kill the demons."

So alas, you're not correct... again.

The CS think, the mages will kill them on sight. So they battle. Everyone knows someon in the military who's fought in the wars, likely knows someone that's died. (Remember estimated population of the CS is like 24-35 million and they have 9 million under arms now... so roughly 1 in 3 people have been or are now in active military service.)

People forget, that due to the climate, it's not like mages and Dbees come strolling up to the CS and try and make buddies either. They know the CS is a threat and treat them as such. (Rightly so) So the hostilities are on both sides.

This isn't true. Not all Deebee's know that the CS is a threat. Many innocent DeeBee's come out of the rifts completely and totally unaware of what the CS is.

Oh give me a break. Speeking of generalities here Walsh. Clearly so. No a Dbee that fell through the rift 5 minutes before may not know the guys dressed as skeletons packing mega damage blasters aren't friendly... but come on. In the setting it's a 'known' fact that the CS aren't buddies with mages or Dbees. Heck it's known on other planets and in other dimensions.

If you're raised from birth to see Magic and Dbees as the same as Demons and Devils.. then you treat them the same.

That doesn't excuse it. Evil is evil. In a universe, like Rifts, where morality isn't subjective, you can totally be evil while thinking you aren't.

Not only is ALL MORALITY 100% subjective, we're 100% told in the books, THIS IS 100% WHY the majority of CS citizens are NOT evil. It's literally explained, point for point in CWC

Killing demons and Devils isn't 'evil', heck it's an act of 'Good' to battle evil, to destroy evil. Noone cries when a Hero of Light takes out a bunch of demons. He's a -hero- for that.

Yeah, because the Hero of Light is usually fighting demons who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him.

Now take a very close look at your quote there. "Fighting demons who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him."

Well neither is fighting Dbees who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him"

Remember "Demon" is just a TYPE of DBee. "Dimensional being' it's a sub catagory. To the CS they're almost synonyms. They're told from the start, they're both intrinsicly evil and here to kill you or at best invade your world.

If you're ok with Demonic Genocide, you can't complain about Dimensional being genocide. Genocide is genocide.

Same thing for the CS. When a human in the CS takes out a bunch of demons he's not some murderer. he's a hero! He's taken out threats to humanity that everyone KNOOOOOOOOWS is nothing but evil. Noone argues it! Horay for him!

Again. Just because he thinks he's good doesn't change anything. Look at the good alignments. There are rules there.

Oh there are, and they're stupid. lol As pointed out and proven, "Superman" the ultimate good guy, is Evil by palladium's alignment system.

Principled and Scrupulous:
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.

This one doesn't care if you think they are good or bad. If they are unarmed and aren't trying to fight. You can't do that if you are good.

Demons and Dbees are considered "Armed" because they possess supernatural strength that could pop your head like a grape, or have alien powers that could affect you otherwise. So there fore no Demon or Dbee is considered 'unarmed', by those in the CS.

In the CS, it's the same for Mages or Dbees. They 'know' them to be 'evil' so killing them isn't an act of evil but an act of heroism.

It's a matter of perception and ignorance. Not 'evil'.

See above.

It's still true, if you're ok with Demonic genocide then you can't change the rules for other genocides. It's ALL a matter of perception.

Now.. with all that said there's still some EVIL schmucks that just want to kill things and do evil acts, but that's not a 'society' thing, that's a 'Some humans are just murdering schmucks" thing.

Unfortunately most of the principled and/or scrupulous soldiers in the CS wouldn't be principled or scrupulous for very long. If they were at Tolkeen most of them are probably dead by their own allies.

Untrue. We're told in the books clearly not only are most of the troops good or selfish, that DUE TO THE SUBJECTIVE NATURE OF MORALITY, that they are not knocked down the alignment scale for the actions.

If you can be a heroic paladin of light killing demons because someone growing up told you they were evil.
you can be a heroic paladin (In Dead boy armor) Killing Demons and Dbees because someone growing up told you they were evil.

Yes, that's how it works. How do we know? because kevin has said that's --exactly-- how it works, in the books.

Yes, in this instance, from a META perspective, the CS are wrong on some things, but that doesn't change the other facts of their own existence.

Edit: Small note. The "horrors of war" and what one does in war may very well degrade one's alignment down the scale. But that goes for anyone in any war. War is hell and people do things they never thought they would, but the killing of your enemy in war, an enemy you've been bread to see as 100% evil no matter what, will not, in and of itself, move you down the alignment chart.

No. Simply no.

Morality isn't subjective in a world where evil can be sensed.

ALL MORALITY IS SUBJECTIVE, as Morality is a human concept that is defined differently by different humans, even humans in the same society don't all agree. Morality is a concept defeloped and defined by humans, not a scientific constant.

More over, Kevin who created the system. DISAGEES WITH YOUR CLAIM in the book about the CS. lol

The CS is evil. Got canonical statements to that effect.

Kevin S.
"They are the bad guys that people love to hate."

And yes. In this thread we DO look at things from the objective stance. So please follow the rules in this thread. Thank you.

By that logic
Kevin S.

"Coalition States: Heroes of Humanity"

Most recent book. I win.

And no. I will not be held by constraints I don't agree to. More over I don't have to be. The creator of the system, the alignments themselves, disagrees with you and says I'm correct. So not only am I right on a conceptual level but the guy that created the universe in which we're discussing it, and created the rules to said universe, agrees with me. Not you.

[HWalsh]

The books say straight up that the CS by and large is made up of good and or selfish people. While their leadership can be, at times, (Many times) "Evil" The evil is bent to 'good' ends for humanity.

Good people in the evil empire doesn't make the empire good. That is a myth. That is even touched on in my original post. This isn't about that.

No. That's your opinion. Eliakon had asked for canonial support. in CWC it straight up says the majority of people in the CS are good or selfish. Which means the minority is evil. THUS.. it depends on how one defines a good or evil empire. The leadership is often evil, but the people aren't.

The Emp actually BELIEVES his words. He's not just feeding people a line. (His son on the other hand is actively manipualative).

No he doesn't. Karl Prosek? He is feeding a line. Joseph is better at it, but the Emperor knows they use propaganda, he knows that the things he targets aren't as bad as he claims they are. He knows he manipulates. That is outright stated in the books.

Well.. Lets see... Just from what I read last night.

Heroes of Humanity. Page 9
"Dispute what some of his critics may say about him, Karl Prosek sincerely believes in this cold harsh "Truth" with every fiber of his being"

Now... that's pretty explicitly clear that I was correct. This is after half a page expounding how the minion war has demonstraighted his viewpoints justified.

Not trying to be nit picky but "Dispute what some of his critics may say about him, Karl Prosek sincerely believes in this cold harsh "Truth" with every fiber of his being" Is not only very clear, it points straight at you for being wrong.

The majority of the CS don't act in 'evil' ways. They don't see a difference between fighting an army of Demons and an army of Dbees.

Nobody is talking about individual soldiers.

I think I was pretty clear when, I said "THE MAJORITY".

However the majority of "good" characters in the CS would have problems with things.

Depends on the things. (Not trying to be funny)

Like, for example, gunning down children.

Again you're ignoring the situation though. A) Many do have problems with that. They feel bad about it, but.... B) You're looking at things from a 'meta' perspective. I.E. above. Like a god gazing down from the heavens. You have 'all' the information from the books and can look down and 'know' that some viewpoints are wrong or misguided. You're failing to appreciate the SETTING.

Again I point you back to the 'Demon' problem. "Heroes" can kill demons by the thousands and be though heroic, but killing 'Dbees' by the thousands and you say it's evil. In the CS they see little if any difference between the two. "Demon" is another 'type' of "DBee". If you're raised from day 1, to believe, that Demons are evil, and trying to kill humanity, and dbees are evil and trying to kill humanity, then killing demons and dbees is NOt evil, it's heroic. You're saving humanity by fighting off inhuman threats.
Now... killing kids can be hard, but again you're looking at it meta. In Rifts, a kid might not be a kid. It might be a 2,000 year old great horned dragon that can --literally-- rip you in half and laugh while doing it. That or being a DBee, it might not age like humans. They may get smaller and look 'younger' as they age. Or they may 'only' age to look about 5 or 6 but infact be an adult. They're aliens, They might not work on any preconceived notion you have. This is ADDRESSED DIRECTLY IN THE BOOK. There's an aside about "Thought the Dbee was a kid and it took out my best friend (Or squad, something or another).

If killing 'Evil" is ok, and you're not looked down upon for it but instead are risen up, then the people doing so aren't 'evil' in and of themselves. Unless you can call the 'genocide of demons and deevils' an evil act, you can't say that the CS citizens are performing evil acts when they do such (FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE).

Then they refuse to... And are killed by their own companions... This is canonical.

This circles back around to the "Some people in the army are sadistic evil people. And sometimes they get in power" Yes, that sort of thing is canonical. So is some of the troops go of women and or children when they don't think they'll get caught, etc.

You find that the SoT (and now minion war) Justify the CS's fears, and 'paint' mages, dbees and supernatural creatures in exactly the light that YES the propaganda machine does, and exasperates the presumption.

Yes, there are a lot of Good people in the CS. There are also a lot of complete holes.

As with any nation. Even ours.

The problem is the complete holes are in charge. That is how this is judged, on the actions of the Empire as a whole.

That is A problem yes. The actions of the empire as a whole also Safe guard the lives of millions of humans and defend them with a zealousness seen few places elsewhere on earth. You're choosing ONE ASPECT and focusing on it.

if you only do that, you paint what ever picture you want. if you ignore the bad and focus on ONE ASPECT "the CS keeps millions of humans alive every day in a hostile planet full of alien invaders, supernatural evil , armies of the undead and alien intelligences" Then they look like heroes.

The truth isn't so simple. the truth is.. they're BOTH.

We, as 'readers' know there can be a difference, because we've read all the book. In the game world, the CS citizen has grown up with the 'knowledge' that these things are true. That magic is evil and even using a little magic opens one up to corruption, and the supernatural. They're raised "Knowing" That mages and Dbees are dangerous. So they don't question it.

Again. This ENTIRE thread is being taken from the OBJECTIVE perspective. Not from the perspective of the CS. Palladium doesn't use subjective morality, it is objective morality.

There's many many pages in multiple books about the topic (The CS) that say you're wrong. And again, this claim you've made circles back around to "The way you set it up, you're not asking a question, you're trying to stear other people to accept your statement. The CS does alot of good as well. You're just refusing to acknowledge that part.

Thus the arguments of, "Well they think they are good."

no. CWC tells us in direct terms, the majority of the Cs ___ARE__Good, or Selfish. Not evil. Not 'thinks' (Which they do think they are) but tells us directly their alignments.

Doesn't matter. Genocide of people who aren't trying to kill you, who are fleeing from you, who are children is evil. Period. It doesn't matter if you think they are evil magic users or not.

Of course it does. All morality is subjective. ALL of it. It's 100% fabricated by humans. It's not a scientific constant. More over the CS contend that the people aren't trying to flee, and 'children' mean little when they're aliens and might rip off your head a few minutes after being born. (Literally. Dragons, alien Dimensional beings from another planet/universe, can do such minutes after birth. it's not an exaggeration. So can many Dbees with superhuman or supernatural strength).

Again you're throwing around 'Genocide' but.. we don't call fighting the armies of Hell "Genocide" though.. it is. That's 'being a hero"

This is helped by such a huge number of people being in the CS military and 'witnessing' the evil of magic and Dbees first hand. How so? Well the Mages see Dead Boys coming and suddenly there's a fight. The mages think (Perhaps correctly) That thre CS will kill them on sight.

Perhaps? Oh no. The CS will to kill them

Not always. Sometimes. Funny enough. LESS NOW THAN BEFORE. There's an entire section in the new book that goes on at length. not only talking about letting Magical and Dbee forces live, but letting them fight the demons. if they do a good job. Letting them go to fight more demons. It's even common practice to help supply them if needed. Food and or medical supplies might.. "Fall off a truck"

it goes into this, now it's not 100% on either side. it's clear to say some people be they CS Humans or Dbees or mages can't 'forvgive' and they try and kill one another.

but the CS is starting to bend, during the war. The section also goes into detail about how this is dangerous for the CS. That troops in the field, are seeing that 'Not EVERY Dbee or Mage is a supervillian. Some fight just as hard as the CS to kill the demons."

So alas, you're not correct... again.

The CS think, the mages will kill them on sight. So they battle. Everyone knows someon in the military who's fought in the wars, likely knows someone that's died. (Remember estimated population of the CS is like 24-35 million and they have 9 million under arms now... so roughly 1 in 3 people have been or are now in active military service.)

People forget, that due to the climate, it's not like mages and Dbees come strolling up to the CS and try and make buddies either. They know the CS is a threat and treat them as such. (Rightly so) So the hostilities are on both sides.

This isn't true. Not all Deebee's know that the CS is a threat. Many innocent DeeBee's come out of the rifts completely and totally unaware of what the CS is.

Oh give me a break. Speeking of generalities here Walsh. Clearly so. No a Dbee that fell through the rift 5 minutes before may not know the guys dressed as skeletons packing mega damage blasters aren't friendly... but come on. In the setting it's a 'known' fact that the CS aren't buddies with mages or Dbees. Heck it's known on other planets and in other dimensions.

If you're raised from birth to see Magic and Dbees as the same as Demons and Devils.. then you treat them the same.

That doesn't excuse it. Evil is evil. In a universe, like Rifts, where morality isn't subjective, you can totally be evil while thinking you aren't.

Not only is ALL MORALITY 100% subjective, we're 100% told in the books, THIS IS 100% WHY the majority of CS citizens are NOT evil. It's literally explained, point for point in CWC

Killing demons and Devils isn't 'evil', heck it's an act of 'Good' to battle evil, to destroy evil. Noone cries when a Hero of Light takes out a bunch of demons. He's a -hero- for that.

Yeah, because the Hero of Light is usually fighting demons who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him.

Now take a very close look at your quote there. "Fighting demons who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him."

Well neither is fighting Dbees who aren't human children who are trying to run away from him"

Remember "Demon" is just a TYPE of DBee. "Dimensional being' it's a sub catagory. To the CS they're almost synonyms. They're told from the start, they're both intrinsicly evil and here to kill you or at best invade your world.

If you're ok with Demonic Genocide, you can't complain about Dimensional being genocide. Genocide is genocide.

Same thing for the CS. When a human in the CS takes out a bunch of demons he's not some murderer. he's a hero! He's taken out threats to humanity that everyone KNOOOOOOOOWS is nothing but evil. Noone argues it! Horay for him!

Again. Just because he thinks he's good doesn't change anything. Look at the good alignments. There are rules there.

Oh there are, and they're stupid. lol As pointed out and proven, "Superman" the ultimate good guy, is Evil by palladium's alignment system.

Principled and Scrupulous:
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.

This one doesn't care if you think they are good or bad. If they are unarmed and aren't trying to fight. You can't do that if you are good.

Demons and Dbees are considered "Armed" because they possess supernatural strength that could pop your head like a grape, or have alien powers that could affect you otherwise. So there fore no Demon or Dbee is considered 'unarmed', by those in the CS.

In the CS, it's the same for Mages or Dbees. They 'know' them to be 'evil' so killing them isn't an act of evil but an act of heroism.

It's a matter of perception and ignorance. Not 'evil'.

See above.

It's still true, if you're ok with Demonic genocide then you can't change the rules for other genocides. It's ALL a matter of perception.

Now.. with all that said there's still some EVIL schmucks that just want to kill things and do evil acts, but that's not a 'society' thing, that's a 'Some humans are just murdering schmucks" thing.

Unfortunately most of the principled and/or scrupulous soldiers in the CS wouldn't be principled or scrupulous for very long. If they were at Tolkeen most of them are probably dead by their own allies.

Untrue. We're told in the books clearly not only are most of the troops good or selfish, that DUE TO THE SUBJECTIVE NATURE OF MORALITY, that they are not knocked down the alignment scale for the actions.

If you can be a heroic paladin of light killing demons because someone growing up told you they were evil.
you can be a heroic paladin (In Dead boy armor) Killing Demons and Dbees because someone growing up told you they were evil.

Yes, that's how it works. How do we know? because kevin has said that's --exactly-- how it works, in the books.

Yes, in this instance, from a META perspective, the CS are wrong on some things, but that doesn't change the other facts of their own existence.

Edit: Small note. The "horrors of war" and what one does in war may very well degrade one's alignment down the scale. But that goes for anyone in any war. War is hell and people do things they never thought they would, but the killing of your enemy in war, an enemy you've been bread to see as 100% evil no matter what, will not, in and of itself, move you down the alignment chart.

No. Simply no.

Morality isn't subjective in a world where evil can be sensed.

ALL MORALITY IS SUBJECTIVE, as Morality is a human concept that is defined differently by different humans, even humans in the same society don't all agree. Morality is a concept defeloped and defined by humans, not a scientific constant.

More over, Kevin who created the system. DISAGEES WITH YOUR CLAIM in the book about the CS. lol

The CS is evil. Got canonical statements to that effect.

Kevin S.
"They are the bad guys that people love to hate."

And yes. In this thread we DO look at things from the objective stance. So please follow the rules in this thread. Thank you.

By that logic
Kevin S.

"Coalition States: Heroes of Humanity"

Most recent book. I win.

And no. I will not be held by constraints I don't agree to. More over I don't have to be. The creator of the system, the alignments themselves, disagrees with you and says I'm correct. So not only am I right on a conceptual level but the guy that created the universe in which we're discussing it, and created the rules to said universe, agrees with me. Not you.

The name of the book is not him agreeing with you. Seriously. This thread had criteria. If you don't agree to them then stop posting in it.

In any case.

Any further posts insisting points that violate the thread criteria will be ignored. I'm done debating a point that is directly outside the scope of this thread in this thread.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The name of the book states that they are the Heroes of Humanity. Its the title of the entire book.

To be fair, it was a humored response to your cherry picked statement but one that invalidates your statement so it was used.

[HWalsh]

The name of the book states that they are the Heroes of Humanity. Its the title of the entire book.

To be fair, it was a humored response to your cherry picked statement but one that invalidates your statement so it was used.

You already agreed with the assertion of the thread. The CS is evil when viewed objectively. When viewed subjectively they can be seen as non-evil.

I disagree with your assertion that morality is subjective. The theory of subjective morality is a theory. As is the theory of objective morality. As is the theory of divine morality.

That, however, is not the scope of this thread to debate. I will state that I do not believe in the theory of subjective morality in real life. I feel the theory serves only to remove morality in general rather than perform any sort of legitimate study of it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I said that the CS was both good and evil at the same time. Not that they were just evil.

As for your views of morality, they're easily disproved. A simple "US vs ISIS" Break down would show that both sides consider themselves righteous, while their enemy 'evil' (Or amoral) .

If Evil is an absolute, how can both be correct, while both say the other is wrong? (Note two sides can 'both' be evil, but if, as in the example, one side think's it's actions are moral while the OTHER side is the evil one, they can't 'both' be right) It's the perceptions and beliefs of the respective sides which 'define' evil and morality. To those in the US, ISIS is clearly evil. No need to even discuss it. It's taken as an absolute and a given. The opposite is also true. For ISIS America is evil, Taken as an absolute, and a given.

Another example would be laws in the Middle east that would allow a man to stone his wife for the suspicion of cheating on him.

Here in the US, that's clearly the act of an evil murderer, killing someone for suspicions, with out any facts, taking the law into their own hands.
Some places over seas, it's considered a given, and nothing to be excited about.

Morality. ALL MORALITY, is subjective. Every time.

[Shark_Force]

there is an important difference between "i am comfortable doing things that might be horrible without checking if they actually are horrible, just because doing those things might be necessary to my survival" and "i am willing to do something that might horrible if i'm forced into it, but i'm going to do my best to check if doing that something is a horrible thing to do, and if i do it accidentally i'm going to feel a lot of guilt about it.

and on a side note, i'm pretty sure that the majority of the CS are selfish (as defined by palladium alignments) period. you can pretty much say that the majority of the CS are selfish or <insert other type of alignment descriptor here> and be correct, because the selfish alignment people basically put you over or close to over the line right off the bat.


(and frankly, having something like 30% of your population be the kind of people that fit the evil alignments is frankly terrifying. seriously, think about that... that is crazy. try to imagine what the world you live in would be like if, say, roughly 1 in 4 people were willing to kill you if they could get away with it. that is a *terrifying* thought to me.