Coalition States - Good, Bad, or In-Between?

[HWalsh]

If Evil is an absolute, how can both be correct, while both say the other is wrong?

Answer: There are a few possible.

It can be as simple as "one is right, the other is wrong."

You *can't* disprove objective morality. No philosopher ever has been able to. It can't be debunked.

If person A thinks person B is evil, that doesn't mean person A is right. Person A can think it's right but actually be wrong.

Evil is absolute if morality is not a creation of man and is, instead, a constant.

IE:
If I am a Game Designer and I make a game that says, "Those who do X are evil." Then, you do X. Then regardless of what you think I defined the state. You can try to redefine it, you can call a dog a cat, but that doesn't stop it from being a dog.

That is an example of divine morality and/or objective morality.

If Good and Evil are objective forces that can be quantified in some way (as they can be in Palladium, see "sense evil") then subjective interpretations that do not align with observable fact are invalid and wrong.

In order to disprove the theory of objective or divine morality you have to prove that Evil and Good cannot be detected and/or that there is no existence of the Divine.

Good luck with that.

Many an armchair and professional philosopher has tried. They have failed. Remember I'm not doing what you're doing. You're claiming subjective morality is a law. You can only do that by proving that Good and Evil do not exist as measurable and that there is no Divine.

I'm only claiming that Subjective Morality has not been proven... Because it hasn't been.

[Prysus]

...Not really.

You're mixing versions for one. I'd keep it to Post Crisis.

For two Superman specifically doesn't lie about not being Superman. He simply says he's Clark, which he is.

Superman (at least Post Crisis) has never attacked an unarmed for.

Throwing a guy "over the horizon" was probably Golden/Silver Age and yes you'd have a point.

He's never tortured.

He can't really break the law either as he's a legally empowered "Special Officer" canonically.

If you have proof of that being the version of Superman Kevin had in mind when he came up with the alignment system you'd have a point. But unless Kevin comes forward and says which version he was thinking of, every version should be taken into consideration.

Greetings and Salutations. Just for the record, we can know Kevin was NOT referring to the Post Crisis Superman when he first posted that in the alignment system. The reason for that is that it's listed in the original Heroes Unlimited book released in 1984. The Crisis of Infinite Earths took place in 85-86, after Palladium started using the reference. As such, Kevin could NOT have been thinking of a version of Superman that did not yet exist. Judging by the other references used in the alignment system (Charles Bronson and Clint Eastwood movies for Scrupulous, Han Solo for Unprincipled), I'd actually say the safest bet would be the Superman movies with Christopher Reeves. Though, admittedly, I'm not sure I can prove he was thinking of the movie version when he wrote that.

Beyond any claims of not being Superman, there are lots of other lying issues including things such as: Making up excuses for needing to leave, making up excuses of where he's been, making up excuses why he's not hurt or still alive, and any time he says he doesn't know how something happened that he just caused while trying to maintain his disguise. His U.S. Citizenship is questionable at best. I'd have to suspect his tax forms are a nightmare of lies. Whenever someone asks him his place of birth and he tells them Kansas is a lie. In some of these cases he's breaking the law with his lies. He does all sorts of other bad things, but those are the more basic ones.

Yeah, the original post was definitely set up to NOT be a discussion. The terms of the original post more or less do make everyone evil. Of course, I also feel the alignment system is way too rigid to represent most characters anyways. Using it's line by line restrictions to prove anything is a mistake (because almost everyone will fail until we get pretty low on the scale).

Of course, if the whole argument is that the ability to Sense Evil is a real, in-world thing, then I should add Sense Evil (at least the psionic power of that name, unless there's another I'm unaware of) will NOT detect most members of the CS. Even if every member of the CS were Diabolic evil (which they're not), the power wouldn't detect most of them. For the power to work on them they'd have to Supernatural (the CS does not qualify), or psychic (only 25%) or psychotic (we don't have numbers on this, but it's highly dubious to suggest a number of 25% or higher), AND have an immediate evil intention (so even a Diabolic Evil CS Psychic wouldn't trigger the power unless he plans to do something evil at that very moment). So if the qualifier is Sense Evil, then the CS are not evil. Of course, that's making it almost everyone human is NOT evil, and goes the opposite issue of the original post.

If the qualifier is alignments only, then we'd need to figure out what the book says. Now Pepsi Jedi said the book states most are good or selfish. If he has a quote to back that up (I don't know Rifts that well), then that would solve the issue as well. That would be a statement from "the Divine."

Now from my personal stance, I'd say the CS are designed as evil bad guys who you might be able to understand and respect. You might even consider them a necessary evil (which is what they were described as at one point in Savage Rifts). But of course, that's not objective, so I guess I should stop posting in this thread toe the OP's rigid line. And how did I get caught up in some Rifts thread about the good or evil of the Coalition States anyways?! Oh ... right ... I felt the need to provide information about which version of Superman that Palladium was using in the alignment system. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Wise_Owl]

Haven't done this in a while;

The CS is evil. They are Illinois Nazi's, and obviously written to be 'the bad guys'. Franky, they are cartoonishly evil at points, I mean they literally use skulls as a motif. Shades of "Are we the Baddies"...

For kicks @Pepsi; Merely because two sides disagree on a subject does not mean the subject is subjective. One side can be wrong if there is an objectively true answer. If Daseh is correct than the creator of the Universe supports them and their actions and the US is objectively evil...

Actually, even if one accepts a sort of universal subjective morality, your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow. We can hold that moral principals are subjective; that they change dependent on the perception and orientation of the subject(i.e. It's not wrong of the wolf to eat the dear in the eyes of the wolf, it is in the eyes of the dear) and still arrive at potential moral judgements. That is, even under subjective determinations we can still arrive at the CS being evil. I mean they are incompetant, so if one accepts their moral judgements they are centrally failing in their duty. Their held positions are ignorant even for their leadership. That is their leadership knows what they are saying and doing will not result in what they say it will. Again, a degree of cartoonishness is involved here(Secret army in a world of Psychics?) Also the Palladium Multiverse appears to have actual moral forces as objectively existing things within that multiverse.

[eliakon]

There are more ways in game to sense evil than just the Sense Evil psionic.
There are several 'more sensitive' tools in the realm of Magic, super powers, and some various other advanced abilities. These abilities will react to or sense if someone is Good, or Evil. Period, dot end of story which means that yes, in the PU there IS a concrete, definite, objective universal force of good and evil and that they can be sensed, that they are not subjective or up for debate, and that evil is evil, even if you don't think it is, because the books clearly say that it is so. You can house rule things to make it subjective if you like, or you can even do like I do in my games and remove alignments completely (which does make the discussion of morality more like the real world and allow for conflicting views of good and evil, but it is a house rule, and thus the results are not official)

And before people start arguing that since its magic the CS cant use it. That doesn't exempt them from the morality EXISTING. Just because biomancers don't use technology and thus can not measure contra-gravity waves, or quantum entanglements, or relativity doesn't mean that those physical properties and laws don't apply to them, just that they refuse to use the tools needed to check it out. Not accepting that the truth exists does not make the truth go away.

[Alrik Vas]

But do what? I mean, the CS is a government, it's evil by virtue that sentient beings are at the helm. The people themselves may not be wicked (though many are) but again, so what?

I know, objectively, how the CS could improve the continent. I also know they don't feel it's in their best interest. This is a selfish act easily fosters evil. Yet it's their decision, they make it, they implemented policy to deal with the consequences.

It's a government. Morality is important to the people in it, but what use does it have to the body itself? Acting from moral conviction is often disastrous for a government (certainly not always). Welfare to foreign powers might be the right thing to do, but governments do it too win hearts and minds, as well as bargaining chips at the treaty table. Look all around the world, the CS isn't any different than what you see today.

That's kind of the point, as well. We see what they do, we reflect on our past. We see what they do, we see others doing the same. You can be a true believer or a cynic, but that doesn't matter to a government as long as you shut up, pay taxes and smile for the camera.

Man, it's an RPG. Make them as evil or misunderstood or even as justified as you want. House rule is best rule, don't let any smarmy smirk-face belittle you for having your own idea.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Shark force.. you realize that many people WOULD kill you in our world... "If they could get away with it"

Human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent.

You know that right?

[eliakon]

Shark force.. you realize that many people WOULD kill you in our world... "If they could get away with it"

Human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent.

You know that right?

Some people argue that yes.
Its a hotly debated issue in philosophy though since there is no consensus on the subject, and what evidence there is doesn't help since there are examples of wildly different behaviors in different times/places.

[HWalsh]

Shark force.. you realize that many people WOULD kill you in our world... "If they could get away with it"

Human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent.

You know that right?

I believe for every person that would kill someone, just if they could, that there are 10 who would not. So, sure, there are a lot. There are a lot more of us then of them though.

[Shark_Force]

Shark force.. you realize that many people WOULD kill you in our world... "If they could get away with it"

Human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent.

You know that right?

many, perhaps.

1 in 4, i find that incredibly hard to believe.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Shark force.. you realize that many people WOULD kill you in our world... "If they could get away with it"

Human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent.

You know that right?

Some people argue that yes.
Its a hotly debated issue in philosophy though since there is no consensus on the subject, and what evidence there is doesn't help since there are examples of wildly different behaviors in different times/places.

It's been proven to be true, repeatedly through out history. Even in our own country. The US had to hire independant contracter armies during Katrina to go in and help establish the rule of law due to the looting and stuff from a simple (albit large) Storm.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Shark force.. you realize that many people WOULD kill you in our world... "If they could get away with it"

Human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent.

You know that right?

I believe for every person that would kill someone, just if they could, that there are 10 who would not. So, sure, there are a lot. There are a lot more of us then of them though.

As someone with a degree in psychology with a minor in abnormal psychology. I assure you the number is far far higher than 1 in 10.

[Shark_Force]

Shark force.. you realize that many people WOULD kill you in our world... "If they could get away with it"

Human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent.

You know that right?

Some people argue that yes.
Its a hotly debated issue in philosophy though since there is no consensus on the subject, and what evidence there is doesn't help since there are examples of wildly different behaviors in different times/places.

It's been proven to be true, repeatedly through out history. Even in our own country. The US had to hire independant contracter armies during Katrina to go in and help establish the rule of law due to the looting and stuff from a simple (albit large) Storm.

uh-huh. how many deaths were there in katrina again? i mean, was it 25% of the people in the area (before the policing forces arrived) or something? because if it wasn't, i'm pretty sure one in four people did not just kill anyone they could get away with. there was not a large part of the population that happily killed anyone who was even potentially a threat, there was not a large portion of the population that started torturing others for fun, there was not a large portion of the population that killed just for the enjoyment of the act, etc.

what people will do when their world is turned upside down is not reflective of what they'll do all the time. and the simple fact is, the world of rifts stopped being turned upside down a long, long time ago. but even then, i very much doubt most people would revert to diabolic or miscreant (though they certainly might have certain aspects, like being a lot more willing to lie or steal, i doubt the average person is going to be willing to kill someone just because they might potentially be a threat some day, or derive pleasure from the act of doing so).

[eliakon]

Shark force.. you realize that many people WOULD kill you in our world... "If they could get away with it"

Human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent.

You know that right?

Some people argue that yes.
Its a hotly debated issue in philosophy though since there is no consensus on the subject, and what evidence there is doesn't help since there are examples of wildly different behaviors in different times/places.

It's been proven to be true, repeatedly through out history. Even in our own country. The US had to hire independant contracter armies during Katrina to go in and help establish the rule of law due to the looting and stuff from a simple (albit large) Storm.

Which would say bad things about Americans not Humans (since there is not such behavior in many other places...Japan springs to mind)
If it weren't for the fact that its not true.
There were no "independent contractor armies" in New Orleans. There were US military and US law enforcement personal, and some rioters who killed a small number of people.
Making up facts to 'prove' a case doesn't really do much other than call in question ALL your claims.

[eliakon]

Shark force.. you realize that many people WOULD kill you in our world... "If they could get away with it"

Human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent.

You know that right?

I believe for every person that would kill someone, just if they could, that there are 10 who would not. So, sure, there are a lot. There are a lot more of us then of them though.

As someone with a degree in psychology with a minor in abnormal psychology. I assure you the number is far far higher than 1 in 10.

Care to provide a source then? Besides your opinion?

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's been proven to be true, repeatedly through out history. Even in our own country. The US had to hire independant contracter armies during Katrina to go in and help establish the rule of law due to the looting and stuff from a simple (albit large) Storm.

uh-huh. how many deaths were there in katrina again? i mean, was it 25% of the people in the area (before the policing forces arrived) or something?

No.. only 1,836 people died from the storm.

If you're indicating people murdered, the ability to do a thing doesn't mean you instanlty do it. Most of the population fled, but even with the majority gone there was wide spread looting on the scale that military contractors had to be hired to take up the slack in the city.

because if it wasn't, i'm pretty sure one in four people did not just kill anyone they could get away with.

I didn't say they would kill indiscriminately, the instant it was possible. I said human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent. Which both happened in Katrina.

I didn't say everyone alive would suddenly kill everyone they could. They would need 'reason'. Even if that reason was something as base as "I don't like the way they looked at me" or "I want his watch" More people would kill than people realize, if there were no reprecussions. Morality and society are imaginary concepts developed by man as a survival tactic.. but that's the thing.. they're all in our heads, right up to the point where we, as humans, decide we want to do something else. The only thing that 'enforces' them are other humans thinking they should. They're not universal concepts.

there was not a large part of the population that happily killed anyone who was even potentially a threat,

The largest part of the population fled the city. of those that remained there were many murders, and many more suspected that were conducted under the cover of the storm and 'fed' to the storm never to be found.

there was not a large portion of the population that started torturing others for fun, there was not a large portion of the population that killed just for the enjoyment of the act, etc.

Nor was such claimed. You can do one thing and not the other. You don't have to do "Everything" on palladium's bullet points to be evil. lol heck stealing bubble gum knocks you off the good lists and I'm pretty sure out of unprincipaled too.

what people will do when their world is turned upside down is not reflective of what they'll do all the time.

..... Right. But that's not the point. You said that living in a world where 1 in 4 people -were willing to- kill you, if they could get away with it would be terorfying.

I'm saying that if they could get away with it, a dramatic number of humans ARE willing to kill you, if need be. (The 'need' being determined by that person and place) More than1 in 4 are willing to kill you if need be, even if they do get caught.

and the simple fact is, the world of rifts stopped being turned upside down a long, long time ago.

Billions of MDC bugs to the north, that will spread over the planet and kill all humans (and everything else) if left unchecked.

Millions of Supernatural vampires down south that can take a laser blast to the face and laugh, and would enslave, and or eat all humans ifg they get a chance...

Insane robot intelligence to the east, building a robot army....

Alien invaders further east off the coast with an entire conteninant now of alien invaders that see humans as chattle and or food, and has entire planets worth of military back up...

Literal armies of demons and devils, fighting an inter galactic and inter dimensional war on earth and trying to take it over to turn it into a literal hell for hellgates to continue their war though the multiverse..

These are just problems besetting North America, currently on rifts earth. I'm thinking it's still pretty upside down

but even then, i very much doubt most people would revert to diabolic or miscreant (though they certainly might have certain aspects, like being a lot more willing to lie or steal, i doubt the average person is going to be willing to kill someone just because they might potentially be a threat some day, or derive pleasure from the act of doing so).

There's a vast difference between YES, killing someone that might be a threat some day... and deriving pleasure from the act of doing so.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Shark force.. you realize that many people WOULD kill you in our world... "If they could get away with it"

Human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent.

You know that right?

Some people argue that yes.
Its a hotly debated issue in philosophy though since there is no consensus on the subject, and what evidence there is doesn't help since there are examples of wildly different behaviors in different times/places.

It's been proven to be true, repeatedly through out history. Even in our own country. The US had to hire independant contracter armies during Katrina to go in and help establish the rule of law due to the looting and stuff from a simple (albit large) Storm.

Which would say bad things about Americans not Humans (since there is not such behavior in many other places...Japan springs to mind)
If it weren't for the fact that its not true.
There were no "independent contractor armies" in New Orleans. There were US military and US law enforcement personal, and some rioters who killed a small number of people.
Making up facts to 'prove' a case doesn't really do much other than call in question ALL your claims.

Blackwater which now goes by "Xe" Had boots on the ground during Katrina under federal contract.

Here's an article from CBS

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/blackwater-down/

So... perhaps google before you call someone a liar.

[Shark_Force]

No.. only 1,836 people died from the storm.

If you're indicating people murdered, the ability to do a thing doesn't mean you instanlty do it. Most of the population fled, but even with the majority gone there was wide spread looting on the scale that military contractors had to be hired to take up the slack in the city.

because if it wasn't, i'm pretty sure one in four people did not just kill anyone they could get away with.

I didn't say they would kill indiscriminately, the instant it was possible. I said human civilization is just a few days off violence and anarchy. Literally shooting people in the streets if food runs out or the rule of law is absent. Which both happened in Katrina.

I didn't say everyone alive would suddenly kill everyone they could. They would need 'reason'. Even if that reason was something as base as "I don't like the way they looked at me" or "I want his watch" More people would kill than people realize, if there were no reprecussions. Morality and society are imaginary concepts developed by man as a survival tactic.. but that's the thing.. they're all in our heads, right up to the point where we, as humans, decide we want to do something else. The only thing that 'enforces' them are other humans thinking they should. They're not universal concepts.

there was not a large part of the population that happily killed anyone who was even potentially a threat,

The largest part of the population fled the city. of those that remained there were many murders, and many more suspected that were conducted under the cover of the storm and 'fed' to the storm never to be found.

there was not a large portion of the population that started torturing others for fun, there was not a large portion of the population that killed just for the enjoyment of the act, etc.

Nor was such claimed. You can do one thing and not the other. You don't have to do "Everything" on palladium's bullet points to be evil. lol heck stealing bubble gum knocks you off the good lists and I'm pretty sure out of unprincipaled too.

what people will do when their world is turned upside down is not reflective of what they'll do all the time.

..... Right. But that's not the point. You said that living in a world where 1 in 4 people -were willing to- kill you, if they could get away with it would be terorfying.

I'm saying that if they could get away with it, a dramatic number of humans ARE willing to kill you, if need be. (The 'need' being determined by that person and place) More than1 in 4 are willing to kill you if need be, even if they do get caught.

and the simple fact is, the world of rifts stopped being turned upside down a long, long time ago.

Billions of MDC bugs to the north, that will spread over the planet and kill all humans (and everything else) if left unchecked.

Millions of Supernatural vampires down south that can take a laser blast to the face and laugh, and would enslave, and or eat all humans ifg they get a chance...

Insane robot intelligence to the east, building a robot army....

Alien invaders further east off the coast with an entire conteninant now of alien invaders that see humans as chattle and or food, and has entire planets worth of military back up...

Literal armies of demons and devils, fighting an inter galactic and inter dimensional war on earth and trying to take it over to turn it into a literal hell for hellgates to continue their war though the multiverse..

These are just problems besetting North America, currently on rifts earth. I'm thinking it's still pretty upside down

but even then, i very much doubt most people would revert to diabolic or miscreant (though they certainly might have certain aspects, like being a lot more willing to lie or steal, i doubt the average person is going to be willing to kill someone just because they might potentially be a threat some day, or derive pleasure from the act of doing so).

There's a vast difference between YES, killing someone that might be a threat some day... and deriving pleasure from the act of doing so.

yeah, all that stuff happening? that's not the world turned upside down in rifts. that's just tuesday. it was happening yesterday, it will be happening tomorrow, and (at least in human communities) nobody can really remember a time when it was not happening, and nobody has a time frame on when it will not be happening.

and no, 1 in 4 people irl are not cursing the fact that the law is there to stop them from murdering and getting away with it. they might be willing to kill me if put into an extreme situation where i stand between them and survival. maybe. that is not remotely the same as 1 in 4 people being willing to kill me just because i might become a threat someday, or just because they feel like it and there's nobody around to stop them.

[Pepsi Jedi]

yeah, all that stuff happening? that's not the world turned upside down in rifts. that's just tuesday. it was happening yesterday, it will be happening tomorrow, and (at least in human communities) nobody can really remember a time when it was not happening, and nobody has a time frame on when it will not be happening.

That doesn't mean that the world isn't turned up side down by it. It's still the state of the world. yes the state of the world is pretty fracked up, but you act like it's no big deal. It's still a big deal. All those threats are still out there, threatening to wipe humanity from the face of the earth.

and no, 1 in 4 people irl are not cursing the fact that the law is there to stop them from murdering and getting away with it. they might be willing to kill me if put into an extreme situation where i stand between them and survival. maybe. that is not remotely the same as 1 in 4 people being willing to kill me just because i might become a threat someday, or just because they feel like it and there's nobody around to stop them.

I don't think it's a matter of cursing the fact. It's more a matter of 'If there were no reprecussions, many more people would causally kill, than do now"

Remember, morality is a CREATED CONSTRUCT, invented to help the human race survive. In the past when there were fewer humans, it was often benifical to have more humans round. To help the tribe or clan or what have you breed and better a hostile enviroment.

Now a days we have an excess of humanity. The entire tribe isn't going to die if a few people aren't around any more. The created moraltiy doesn't hold the same 'need' in society.

But we have the laws and traditions that came with that created morality.

With out LAWS to stop, yes, people would kill much more frequently. You cut someone off in traffic. If they knew there were no reprecussions, that guy might actually pull out a gun and blow your head off. Someone sleeps with your girlfriend, the guy might hit you in the face with an axe. It's not a matter of a bunch of psychotics running around, but the fact that if there were NO reprecussions from it, many more people would yes, act on the urges that we all possess as apex predators that we TAMPER DOWN, due to societal constraints.

[Alrik Vas]

If you're standing between someone and their perception of survival, they'll eliminate you to survive. That's what the CS created to operate the way they do. Whether it was real or not (in some cases yes, in some no) they're acting in their self interest to survive. That's the anarchy outside their safe havens, that's how the regard the world. They aren't wrong all the time.

This is getting tiresome, guys.

[Pepsi Jedi]

If you're standing between someone and their perception of survival, they'll eliminate you to survive. That's what the CS created to operate the way they do. Whether it was real or not (in some cases yes, in some no) they're acting in their self interest to survive. That's the anarchy outside their safe havens, that's how the regard the world. They aren't wrong all the time.

This is getting tiresome, guys.

Nicely put, and succinct.

[Shark_Force]

yeah, all that stuff happening? that's not the world turned upside down in rifts. that's just tuesday. it was happening yesterday, it will be happening tomorrow, and (at least in human communities) nobody can really remember a time when it was not happening, and nobody has a time frame on when it will not be happening.

That doesn't mean that the world isn't turned up side down by it. It's still the state of the world. yes the state of the world is pretty fracked up, but you act like it's no big deal. It's still a big deal. All those threats are still out there, threatening to wipe humanity from the face of the earth.

and no, 1 in 4 people irl are not cursing the fact that the law is there to stop them from murdering and getting away with it. they might be willing to kill me if put into an extreme situation where i stand between them and survival. maybe. that is not remotely the same as 1 in 4 people being willing to kill me just because i might become a threat someday, or just because they feel like it and there's nobody around to stop them.

I don't think it's a matter of cursing the fact. It's more a matter of 'If there were no reprecussions, many more people would causally kill, than do now"

Remember, morality is a CREATED CONSTRUCT, invented to help the human race survive. In the past when there were fewer humans, it was often benifical to have more humans round. To help the tribe or clan or what have you breed and better a hostile enviroment.

Now a days we have an excess of humanity. The entire tribe isn't going to die if a few people aren't around any more. The created moraltiy doesn't hold the same 'need' in society.

But we have the laws and traditions that came with that created morality.

With out LAWS to stop, yes, people would kill much more frequently. You cut someone off in traffic. If they knew there were no reprecussions, that guy might actually pull out a gun and blow your head off. Someone sleeps with your girlfriend, the guy might hit you in the face with an axe. It's not a matter of a bunch of psychotics running around, but the fact that if there were NO reprecussions from it, many more people would yes, act on the urges that we all possess as apex predators that we TAMPER DOWN, due to societal constraints.

except that when they find out that isn't the case (for example, a group of CS soldiers that exterminates a d-bee village without even getting shot at), many (most, even) still continue to act in this way. or the people who live in the 'burbs with a bunch of d-bees and psychics that haven't done a damned thing to them (and some who have, but then, that is likely no different from the regular humans they also live with). not that most of them actually put even the tiniest bit of effort into even asking if that is actually the case (there is no indication, for example, that after coming back from the war against tolkeen and having a good idea of what war against a magic nation *actually* looks like, anyone bothered to say "hey, that isn't at all what it's been like here for the past 50 years").

and no, the presence of more people doesn't suddenly mean that everyone's morality changes and they're willing to just commit murder because hey, plenty more where that came from. it just isn't the case. certainly, some people are like that. but they are not common, and especially not close to 1 in 4. that's just nonsense. if you're going to insist that is factually true, i'm going to need to see something less vague than an assertion that you totally definitely know these things because you're the greatest psychological genius in the entire world and you don't need anything silly like research or psychological studies to prove that what you say is definitely incontrovertibly true.

[Axelmania]

except that when they find out that isn't the case (for example, a group of CS soldiers that exterminates a d-bee village without even getting shot at), many (most, even) still continue to act in this way. or the people who live in the 'burbs with a bunch of d-bees and psychics that haven't done a damned thing to them (and some who have, but then, that is likely no different from the regular humans they also live with). not that most of them actually put even the tiniest bit of effort into even asking if that is actually the case (there is no indication, for example, that after coming back from the war against tolkeen and having a good idea of what war against a magic nation *actually* looks like, anyone bothered to say "hey, that isn't at all what it's been like here for the past 50 years").

and no, the presence of more people doesn't suddenly mean that everyone's morality changes and they're willing to just commit murder because hey, plenty more where that came from. it just isn't the case. certainly, some people are like that. but they are not common, and especially not close to 1 in 4. that's just nonsense. if you're going to insist that is factually true, i'm going to need to see something less vague than an assertion that you totally definitely know these things because you're the greatest psychological genius in the entire world and you don't need anything silly like research or psychological studies to prove that what you say is definitely incontrovertibly true.

Not getting shot at when you wipe out a village does not mean the village was not a threat. It might mean that you stopped them minutes before they cast a giant Meteor ritual at your nearby APC or gave your location to armed enemies or similar indirect or delayed threats.

As terrorist-justifying as it sometimes sounds, Lord Rahl's eventual anti-Jagang tactical orders are explained in a way that the target selection does seem rational.

[HWalsh]

except that when they find out that isn't the case (for example, a group of CS soldiers that exterminates a d-bee village without even getting shot at), many (most, even) still continue to act in this way. or the people who live in the 'burbs with a bunch of d-bees and psychics that haven't done a damned thing to them (and some who have, but then, that is likely no different from the regular humans they also live with). not that most of them actually put even the tiniest bit of effort into even asking if that is actually the case (there is no indication, for example, that after coming back from the war against tolkeen and having a good idea of what war against a magic nation *actually* looks like, anyone bothered to say "hey, that isn't at all what it's been like here for the past 50 years").

and no, the presence of more people doesn't suddenly mean that everyone's morality changes and they're willing to just commit murder because hey, plenty more where that came from. it just isn't the case. certainly, some people are like that. but they are not common, and especially not close to 1 in 4. that's just nonsense. if you're going to insist that is factually true, i'm going to need to see something less vague than an assertion that you totally definitely know these things because you're the greatest psychological genius in the entire world and you don't need anything silly like research or psychological studies to prove that what you say is definitely incontrovertibly true.

Not getting shot at when you wipe out a village does not mean the village was not a threat. It might mean that you stopped them minutes before they cast a giant Meteor ritual at your nearby APC or gave your location to armed enemies or similar indirect or delayed threats.

As terrorist-justifying as it sometimes sounds, Lord Rahl's eventual anti-Jagang tactical orders are explained in a way that the target selection does seem rational.

That still would have some kind of signs. That is the thing that the CS Defense Force™ (my term for the pro-CS posters) can't do. They can't understand that we objectively know that such isn't normally the case. The CS controls its people by lying to them and elevating the danger of deebees to the point that it causes paranoia and fear. They limit their ability to gather knowledge by restricting literacy. They limit their ability to critically think by restricting education.

The most dangerous thing for the CS is if the general population really starts to understand the concept of:
"A rhombus is not always a square, but a square is always a rhombus."

Or:
"A deebee is not always a demon, but a demon is always a deebee."

The CS can never afford an informed populace. An informed populace would destroy the CS faster than the greatest weapon on the planet.

[Nightmask]

except that when they find out that isn't the case (for example, a group of CS soldiers that exterminates a d-bee village without even getting shot at), many (most, even) still continue to act in this way. or the people who live in the 'burbs with a bunch of d-bees and psychics that haven't done a damned thing to them (and some who have, but then, that is likely no different from the regular humans they also live with). not that most of them actually put even the tiniest bit of effort into even asking if that is actually the case (there is no indication, for example, that after coming back from the war against tolkeen and having a good idea of what war against a magic nation *actually* looks like, anyone bothered to say "hey, that isn't at all what it's been like here for the past 50 years").

and no, the presence of more people doesn't suddenly mean that everyone's morality changes and they're willing to just commit murder because hey, plenty more where that came from. it just isn't the case. certainly, some people are like that. but they are not common, and especially not close to 1 in 4. that's just nonsense. if you're going to insist that is factually true, i'm going to need to see something less vague than an assertion that you totally definitely know these things because you're the greatest psychological genius in the entire world and you don't need anything silly like research or psychological studies to prove that what you say is definitely incontrovertibly true.

Not getting shot at when you wipe out a village does not mean the village was not a threat. It might mean that you stopped them minutes before they cast a giant Meteor ritual at your nearby APC or gave your location to armed enemies or similar indirect or delayed threats.

As terrorist-justifying as it sometimes sounds, Lord Rahl's eventual anti-Jagang tactical orders are explained in a way that the target selection does seem rational.

You're trying to rationalize an evil act by claiming it was okay based on something that wasn't provable and nothing more than an extremely prejudiced and fact-lacking view. No matter how much you want to insist that 'well I was sure my neighbor was going to kill me someday so I killed him first' when said neighbor had done literally nothing to justify that view is okay will make it okay. So no matter how much one wants to invent to justify a massacre because 'well I had no proof but I'm sure they were bad people who needed to die' will make it not evil. On the remote chance said act for a change did actually stop a threat it's more in the category of even a stopped clock being right twice a day, meaning eventually while you're killing innocent people you'll eventually kill some actually deserving people along the way. It doesn't even remotely make it right having a 'better a hundred innocents die rather than one guilty remain alive' mentality, it makes it horrendously evil.

[Axelmania]

If you can be a heroic paladin of light killing demons because someone growing up told you they were evil.
you can be a heroic paladin (In Dead boy armor) Killing Demons and Dbees because someone growing up told you they were evil.

Yes, that's how it works. How do we know? because kevin has said that's --exactly-- how it works, in the books.

Yes, in this instance, from a META perspective, the CS are wrong on some things, but that doesn't change the other facts of their own existence.

The titular princess protagonist Star Buttery in "Star vs the Forces of Evil" serves as a really great example of this dichotomy between the good intentions one can have behind one's actions versus whether in a sightlines going back centuries if you are the defender or aggressor.

She fights monsters a very long time, usually pretty ruthlessly, with rare exceptions like if one is rejected by the others and not engaging her she would hesitantly converse.

It is only through coincidence and a convenient uninvolved outsider she does not consider hostile to her (Marco Diaz) that she is.actually able to reexamine her long term role and an alternate perspective on how hostility began and who the bad guys are.

All stuff I hope they revisit in seasons two and three as it was only hinted at in one of thirteen episodes and not very fleshed out.

Doctor Who had some underground reptile people within conquered view towards the surface apes. Who verse probably explores that morality on several occasions.

The of course you have stuff like sitting bull and crazy horse vs the US in similar turf wars vs immigrants building on land you had thought of as yours.

[Pepsi Jedi]

yeah, all that stuff happening? that's not the world turned upside down in rifts. that's just tuesday. it was happening yesterday, it will be happening tomorrow, and (at least in human communities) nobody can really remember a time when it was not happening, and nobody has a time frame on when it will not be happening.

That doesn't mean that the world isn't turned up side down by it. It's still the state of the world. yes the state of the world is pretty fracked up, but you act like it's no big deal. It's still a big deal. All those threats are still out there, threatening to wipe humanity from the face of the earth.

and no, 1 in 4 people irl are not cursing the fact that the law is there to stop them from murdering and getting away with it. they might be willing to kill me if put into an extreme situation where i stand between them and survival. maybe. that is not remotely the same as 1 in 4 people being willing to kill me just because i might become a threat someday, or just because they feel like it and there's nobody around to stop them.

I don't think it's a matter of cursing the fact. It's more a matter of 'If there were no reprecussions, many more people would causally kill, than do now"

Remember, morality is a CREATED CONSTRUCT, invented to help the human race survive. In the past when there were fewer humans, it was often benifical to have more humans round. To help the tribe or clan or what have you breed and better a hostile enviroment.

Now a days we have an excess of humanity. The entire tribe isn't going to die if a few people aren't around any more. The created moraltiy doesn't hold the same 'need' in society.

But we have the laws and traditions that came with that created morality.

With out LAWS to stop, yes, people would kill much more frequently. You cut someone off in traffic. If they knew there were no reprecussions, that guy might actually pull out a gun and blow your head off. Someone sleeps with your girlfriend, the guy might hit you in the face with an axe. It's not a matter of a bunch of psychotics running around, but the fact that if there were NO reprecussions from it, many more people would yes, act on the urges that we all possess as apex predators that we TAMPER DOWN, due to societal constraints.

except that when they find out that isn't the case (for example, a group of CS soldiers that exterminates a d-bee village without even getting shot at), many (most, even) still continue to act in this way. or the people who live in the 'burbs with a bunch of d-bees and psychics that haven't done a damned thing to them (and some who have, but then, that is likely no different from the regular humans they also live with). not that most of them actually put even the tiniest bit of effort into even asking if that is actually the case (there is no indication, for example, that after coming back from the war against tolkeen and having a good idea of what war against a magic nation *actually* looks like, anyone bothered to say "hey, that isn't at all what it's been like here for the past 50 years").

The war with tolkeen VERIFIED All the CS's fears about magic users and Dbees. They'd been told from birth that magic was dangerous and mages consorted with evil beings, demons and what have you.

They went to war with tolkeen and saw.... evil magic users.. consorting with evil bings (Witches, neuron beasts, evil dragons) and demons. The Sorcerers revenge killed tons and tons of CS troops.

The war with tolkeen didn't have troops coming home going 'Oh maybe they're not so bad' The troops EACH saw dozens if not 100s of people die at the hands of these things. They came home going 'God I never knew HOW BAD IT REALLY WAS"

Again that's part of the sad irony of Tolkeen. Before it all started the CS fears were unfounded. Due to tolkeen's pride, and hubris, they --became-- everything the CS feared, and thus JUSTIFIED their fears 100%.

and no, the presence of more people doesn't suddenly mean that everyone's morality changes

I'm not saying it changes. We still have it as hold over from the previous time. I'm saying that morality is no longer a concept dreamed up for speices survival. Back when we were packs or tribes of 20 or fewer people, losing two or three might mean they all die. If they can't properly get food or make fire, or protect themselves. The loss of every member of the tribe was keenly felt. Morality grew out of a need to stop being 'animals' and start being social people. I.E. to prolong the life of the indivitual as he's needed by the tribe/group.

Now days there's billions and billions and billions of people on earth. The loss of 1.. or 100, or 1,000,000, isn't the downfall of the tribe, or civilization.

and they're willing to just commit murder because hey, plenty more where that came from. it just isn't the case. certainly, some people are like that. but they are not common, and especially not close to 1 in 4.

Again you're missing the point. I'm not saying people are sitting in their homes plotting murders and looking out their peep holes cursing the cops, for preventing them from doing so (Though some certinly are) I'm saying that with out reprecussions in place, that there would be many more murders, as yes, people WOULD follow their more base instincts.

Yes.. living in a society and having laws that PUNISH one for breaking the laws, is by and large what keeps people from breaking the law. Not that people are intrinsicly 'good'.

that's just nonsense. if you're going to insist that is factually true, i'm going to need to see something less vague than an assertion that you totally definitely know these things because you're the greatest psychological genius in the entire world and you don't need anything silly like research or psychological studies to prove that what you say is definitely incontrovertibly true.

I don't think I'm the greatest anything in the world. Far from it on most every count. At the very best I'm decent at a few things.

That said you don't pay me. So I'm not going to do research papers or even itemized lists of other people's research papers for you. You have google. Have a party. heck just replyhing to forums takes up more time than I really like to think about. lol. I'm not doing research for you too.

[Pepsi Jedi]

except that when they find out that isn't the case (for example, a group of CS soldiers that exterminates a d-bee village without even getting shot at), many (most, even) still continue to act in this way. or the people who live in the 'burbs with a bunch of d-bees and psychics that haven't done a damned thing to them (and some who have, but then, that is likely no different from the regular humans they also live with). not that most of them actually put even the tiniest bit of effort into even asking if that is actually the case (there is no indication, for example, that after coming back from the war against tolkeen and having a good idea of what war against a magic nation *actually* looks like, anyone bothered to say "hey, that isn't at all what it's been like here for the past 50 years").

and no, the presence of more people doesn't suddenly mean that everyone's morality changes and they're willing to just commit murder because hey, plenty more where that came from. it just isn't the case. certainly, some people are like that. but they are not common, and especially not close to 1 in 4. that's just nonsense. if you're going to insist that is factually true, i'm going to need to see something less vague than an assertion that you totally definitely know these things because you're the greatest psychological genius in the entire world and you don't need anything silly like research or psychological studies to prove that what you say is definitely incontrovertibly true.

Not getting shot at when you wipe out a village does not mean the village was not a threat. It might mean that you stopped them minutes before they cast a giant Meteor ritual at your nearby APC or gave your location to armed enemies or similar indirect or delayed threats.

As terrorist-justifying as it sometimes sounds, Lord Rahl's eventual anti-Jagang tactical orders are explained in a way that the target selection does seem rational.

That still would have some kind of signs. That is the thing that the CS Defense Force™ (my term for the pro-CS posters) can't do. They can't understand that we objectively know that such isn't normally the case. The CS controls its people by lying to them and elevating the danger of deebees to the point that it causes paranoia and fear. They limit their ability to gather knowledge by restricting literacy. They limit their ability to critically think by restricting education.

The most dangerous thing for the CS is if the general population really starts to understand the concept of:
"A rhombus is not always a square, but a square is always a rhombus."

Or:
"A deebee is not always a demon, but a demon is always a deebee."

The CS can never afford an informed populace. An informed populace would destroy the CS faster than the greatest weapon on the planet.

Ahhh and you've hit on a large point IN the new book.

This is 100% directly addressed and you're correct in that the CS Leadership fears exactly this. Because if their troops start to question, they may not follow orders. Orders that may.. at one point or another... hinge the survival of the human race.

The assioation with Dbees and Magic users in the field, in the Minion war brings up _____THESE EXACT POINTS______ and CS troops are seeing such things.

That not all Dbees are "EVIL KILL YOU ON SIGHT" that some mages fight with honor and intensity for the survival of earth. They they might save the lives of even CS troops from demons. Etc.

CS Troops might.... make friends... with Dbees and Magic users.

This is all directly addressed in the new book.

[Shark_Force]

of course their experiences verified their expectations... they didn't examine their experiences at all. if you refuse to open your mind and consider that you might be wrong, you will always have everything confirm your expectations, because you will ignore anything that might disprove them.

like i said, if they were not more or less a mindless murder-machine, they would be realizing right now that they have definitely NOT been under siege for decades. they now know what an all-out war with the things they're afraid of looks like, and they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it does not look anything at all like what happened in the many decades prior to that.

but instead of asking themselves if what they're doing is right, and examining whether they need to do anything different, they've decided that they should just keep right on murdering without remorse or hesitation. murder anything that looks different. murder anyone that says something you don't agree with. murder anyone who isn't as much of a murderer as you.

they are not good. i don't care if they think they are good or not. they are a gang of remorseless killers who do not care enough about doing the right thing to even ask themselves if they are doing the right thing. the fact that they are stupid enough to be afraid of everything in spite of the fact that they are by far the most powerful force of evil around does not make that any less true.

[Pepsi Jedi]

of course their experiences verified their expectations... they didn't examine their experiences at all. if you refuse to open your mind and consider that you might be wrong, you will always have everything confirm your expectations, because you will ignore anything that might disprove them.

like i said, if they were not more or less a mindless murder-machine, they would be realizing right now that they have definitely NOT been under siege for decades.

But that's the problem. They HAVE and they ARE still under siege. There's billions of MDC bugs to the north, Millions or Billions On atlantis with entire planets ready to warp in if needed. Millions of Vamps to the south. The FoM, Dragons. Demon armies.

People "FORGET THE SETTING" and just hand wave such huge massive things. When they do they take huge motivators out of play and act like they don't exist. But they do. They ARE present. They do influence the setting. To ignore them is absurd.

they now know what an all-out war with the things they're afraid of looks like, and they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it does not look anything at all like what happened in the many decades prior to that.

I'm not even sure what you're talkng about here... but the FoM did attack and almost destroy the CS. Tolkeen, when the CS finally went to war with them was not only exactly what they feared tolkeen was, they were WORSE.

but instead of asking themselves if what they're doing is right, and examining whether they need to do anything different, they've decided that they should just keep right on murdering without remorse or hesitation. murder anything that looks different. murder anyone that says something you don't agree with. murder anyone who isn't as much of a murderer as you.

Because you ignore 300 years and 15 generations of 'Poof' that they are right, and that any hesitation brings about the deaths of those that hesitate. but... 200 years of dark ages and 100 years of crawling up from said dark ages, beset on every side by unimaginable enimes from other dimensions and planets, that have preyed on FIFTEEN GENERATIONS of humanity is easy to hand wave and get over, right?

they are not good. i don't care if they think they are good or not. they are a gang of remorseless killers who do not care enough about doing the right thing to even ask themselves if they are doing the right thing. the fact that they are stupid enough to be afraid of everything in spite of the fact that they are by far the most powerful force of evil around does not make that any less true.

Your statement is just wrong on many levels.
They do care about doing the right thing. Their right thing is "Making sure humanity survives in a sea of monsters." But more importantly 'Making sure you survive" is the biological imperative. Period.
You say they're stupid enough to be afraid of everything. Have you read a rifts bbook? lol are there actually creatures in Rifts weaker than humans? (Honestly asking) Most Dbees have at least human minimum stats with by far most being better than humans in one or many ways, if not MD creatures with MD attacks.

You're acting like the CS is overreacting to a bunch of kittens playing with their toes. Seriously.. Open a Rifts book. Most any Rifts book. lol

You say they're 'by far the most powerful force of evil around" Just tells me you're by far not paying attention. They're dwarfed by the Xits in North america. The Vamps in North America, And Atlantis off the shore of North America. That's with out touching the gargoyles in europe, or the demon armies in china, and the rest of the evil all over the planet.

Your statements are incorrect, and hyperbolic in the extreme.

[HWalsh]

You say they're 'by far the most powerful force of evil around" Just tells me you're by far not paying attention. They're dwarfed by the Xits in North america. The Vamps in North America, And Atlantis off the shore of North America. That's with out touching the gargoyles in europe, or the demon armies in china, and the rest of the evil all over the planet.

Your statements are incorrect, and hyperbolic in the extreme.

Yeah. Not agreeing with you here.

If they were worried, really worried, about Atlantis, or the Xits, or the Vamps, then they'd be mobilizing their 9,000,000 strong army to deal with them. Instead, their first target was the, at the time, peaceful non-aggressive City-State of Tolkeen that, until then, had never attacked them and everyone, even the CS due to sheer numbers, knew wasn't really a threat. In fact the CS thought Tolkeen would fall in seconds, and it wasn't until they had a way to stop their nukes that they were taken seriously. If they were truly worried about the Xits they would have said:

"Okay Tolkeen, okay Lazlo, I don't like you guys and you guys don't like me, but those guys are much worse than you guys, and I am sure that, to you, I seem less worse than they do too. So lets strike a truce here, crush the bugs, then later on we can get back to killing each other."

That would be the rational decision. Instead they attacked Tolkeen. Which we were made abundantly clear did not pose a legitimate threat to the Coalition States even with all of their weakest demons ever army.

You don't get it Pepsi, which is why you and the anti-CS group will never agree.

Attacking, even threatening Tolkeen, was wrong. The CS was wrong. They should not have done it.

In fact I want to hear you admit that:
"The CS was wrong to attack, or threaten, Tolkeen. That was clearly an evil action."

Tolkeen was a self-fulfilling prophesy. They were only what the CS feared because the CS threatened them and scared the heck out of them. I find it laughable that you insist that Tolkeen was so evil for trying to defend themselves against the CS aggressors, but then you don't demonize the CS for being the aggressors. You demonize them for freeing the weakest demons of hell who were being oppressed in order to defend themselves against the CS but what the CS does with Dogboys, Psychics, and the atrocities they committed against children are all okay.

So, if I play the Defenders of the CS™ game...

From the prospective of the people of Tolkeen they were being attacked by an evil force (the CS) who wanted to kill them all, including the women and children. They did not wish to abandon their rightful homes and so did whatever they could believing that the Daemonix were far less of a threat to real humanity (you know, the kind that act Humane, unlike the CS) and freedom than the CS who are, by far, the greatest threat to real humanity and freedom on the planet.

The Coalition States: The Enemies of Freedom

[eliakon]

yeah, all that stuff happening? that's not the world turned upside down in rifts. that's just tuesday. it was happening yesterday, it will be happening tomorrow, and (at least in human communities) nobody can really remember a time when it was not happening, and nobody has a time frame on when it will not be happening.

That doesn't mean that the world isn't turned up side down by it. It's still the state of the world. yes the state of the world is pretty fracked up, but you act like it's no big deal. It's still a big deal. All those threats are still out there, threatening to wipe humanity from the face of the earth.

and no, 1 in 4 people irl are not cursing the fact that the law is there to stop them from murdering and getting away with it. they might be willing to kill me if put into an extreme situation where i stand between them and survival. maybe. that is not remotely the same as 1 in 4 people being willing to kill me just because i might become a threat someday, or just because they feel like it and there's nobody around to stop them.

I don't think it's a matter of cursing the fact. It's more a matter of 'If there were no reprecussions, many more people would causally kill, than do now"

Remember, morality is a CREATED CONSTRUCT, invented to help the human race survive. In the past when there were fewer humans, it was often benifical to have more humans round. To help the tribe or clan or what have you breed and better a hostile enviroment.

Now a days we have an excess of humanity. The entire tribe isn't going to die if a few people aren't around any more. The created moraltiy doesn't hold the same 'need' in society.

But we have the laws and traditions that came with that created morality.

With out LAWS to stop, yes, people would kill much more frequently. You cut someone off in traffic. If they knew there were no reprecussions, that guy might actually pull out a gun and blow your head off. Someone sleeps with your girlfriend, the guy might hit you in the face with an axe. It's not a matter of a bunch of psychotics running around, but the fact that if there were NO reprecussions from it, many more people would yes, act on the urges that we all possess as apex predators that we TAMPER DOWN, due to societal constraints.

except that when they find out that isn't the case (for example, a group of CS soldiers that exterminates a d-bee village without even getting shot at), many (most, even) still continue to act in this way. or the people who live in the 'burbs with a bunch of d-bees and psychics that haven't done a damned thing to them (and some who have, but then, that is likely no different from the regular humans they also live with). not that most of them actually put even the tiniest bit of effort into even asking if that is actually the case (there is no indication, for example, that after coming back from the war against tolkeen and having a good idea of what war against a magic nation *actually* looks like, anyone bothered to say "hey, that isn't at all what it's been like here for the past 50 years").

The war with tolkeen VERIFIED All the CS's fears about magic users and Dbees. They'd been told from birth that magic was dangerous and mages consorted with evil beings, demons and what have you.

They went to war with tolkeen and saw.... evil magic users.. consorting with evil bings (Witches, neuron beasts, evil dragons) and demons. The Sorcerers revenge killed tons and tons of CS troops.

The war with tolkeen didn't have troops coming home going 'Oh maybe they're not so bad' The troops EACH saw dozens if not 100s of people die at the hands of these things. They came home going 'God I never knew HOW BAD IT REALLY WAS"

Again that's part of the sad irony of Tolkeen. Before it all started the CS fears were unfounded. Due to tolkeen's pride, and hubris, they --became-- everything the CS feared, and thus JUSTIFIED their fears 100%.

and no, the presence of more people doesn't suddenly mean that everyone's morality changes

I'm not saying it changes. We still have it as hold over from the previous time. I'm saying that morality is no longer a concept dreamed up for speices survival. Back when we were packs or tribes of 20 or fewer people, losing two or three might mean they all die. If they can't properly get food or make fire, or protect themselves. The loss of every member of the tribe was keenly felt. Morality grew out of a need to stop being 'animals' and start being social people. I.E. to prolong the life of the indivitual as he's needed by the tribe/group.

Now days there's billions and billions and billions of people on earth. The loss of 1.. or 100, or 1,000,000, isn't the downfall of the tribe, or civilization.

and they're willing to just commit murder because hey, plenty more where that came from. it just isn't the case. certainly, some people are like that. but they are not common, and especially not close to 1 in 4.

Again you're missing the point. I'm not saying people are sitting in their homes plotting murders and looking out their peep holes cursing the cops, for preventing them from doing so (Though some certinly are) I'm saying that with out reprecussions in place, that there would be many more murders, as yes, people WOULD follow their more base instincts.

Yes.. living in a society and having laws that PUNISH one for breaking the laws, is by and large what keeps people from breaking the law. Not that people are intrinsicly 'good'.

that's just nonsense. if you're going to insist that is factually true, i'm going to need to see something less vague than an assertion that you totally definitely know these things because you're the greatest psychological genius in the entire world and you don't need anything silly like research or psychological studies to prove that what you say is definitely incontrovertibly true.

I don't think I'm the greatest anything in the world. Far from it on most every count. At the very best I'm decent at a few things.

That said you don't pay me. So I'm not going to do research papers or even itemized lists of other people's research papers for you. You have google. Have a party. heck just replyhing to forums takes up more time than I really like to think about. lol. I'm not doing research for you too.

I would remind you of your collage days then
When you make a claim, it is YOUR burden of proof to support it.
Especially when you make a wild assertion that no one else believes.
You can either cite a source for your claim, or you can with draw your claim, or you can accept that everyone is going to believe that you are making stuff up.
It is not the duty of other people to research YOUR EVIDENCE FOR YOU to find out if you are lying or not. It is your job to be able to support your own claim.
This is why, when someone here makes a claim about the game, THEY have to back it up, they can't just say "I'm right duh, look it up"

[Pepsi Jedi]

You say they're 'by far the most powerful force of evil around" Just tells me you're by far not paying attention. They're dwarfed by the Xits in North america. The Vamps in North America, And Atlantis off the shore of North America. That's with out touching the gargoyles in europe, or the demon armies in china, and the rest of the evil all over the planet.

Your statements are incorrect, and hyperbolic in the extreme.

Yeah. Not agreeing with you here.

If they were worried, really worried, about Atlantis, or the Xits, or the Vamps, then they'd be mobilizing their 9,000,000 strong army to deal with them.

Nine million..... vs... Billions of bugs....

Or millions/billions on atlantis AND Literal entire planets of back up that could be rifted in vs 9 million... .

Or millions of supernatural vampires that could take most of your weaponry with out a scratch... vs 9 million.

And yet. you think they should just saddle up.. and... *Motions* kill themselves for giggles?

The CS has to expand and get bigger and stronger before they can mobilize aginst those threats.

You don't take an army of 9 million against armies of literal billions or entire planet's worth of foes.

Instead, their first target was the, at the time, peaceful non-aggressive City-State of Tolkeen that, until then, had never attacked them and everyone, even the CS due to sheer numbers, knew wasn't really a threat. In fact the CS thought Tolkeen would fall in seconds, and it wasn't until they had a way to stop their nukes that they were taken seriously.

Yeah the deux ex machina that made the war on tolkeen last more than a few seconds was a surprise. To everyone.

That said, it circles back around to the other. You solidify your power base before you do anything else. the CS needs more power before they can take on armies of billions head on.

If they were truly worried about the Xits they would have said:

"Okay Tolkeen, okay Lazlo, I don't like you guys and you guys don't like me, but those guys are much worse than you guys, and I am sure that, to you, I seem less worse than they do too. So lets strike a truce here, crush the bugs, then later on we can get back to killing each other."

In essnese that's what they're doing with the Minion war.

That would be the rational decision. Instead they attacked Tolkeen. Which we were made abundantly clear did not pose a legitimate threat to the Coalition States even with all of their weakest demons ever army.

Oh they were a threat. They just couldn't WIN. ANd you don't leave a threat at your back to continue to grow stronger or they might just stab you when you're handeling other things. Tolkeen couldn't perveil in war against the CS but they could hurt them. (As they did). They were a hostile neighbor and had to be taken out before expansion of the CS could continue or they'd always be a threat in close proximity.

You don't get it Pepsi, which is why you and the anti-CS group will never agree.

I get it. You just chose to ignore HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE parts of the setting as non entities. In essence you look at the problem like a young person would. Like a 5th grader not understanding why wars happen. "Well wouldn't it be logical to just sit down and make friends with the people trying to kill you? That way your people don't die and our people don't die and we save all the people?"

Well.. yeah... sure... but that's not how things actually happen in the real world. Oh we try. We try hard to avoid war (now) but in the end, people tend not to agree. Look at the middle east. Wouldn't it be logical for them all to stop fighting over imaginary people in the sky? Yes.

Do you think they're going to suddenly come to that realization any time soon? If history is any indication... NOPE!

Attacking, even threatening Tolkeen, was wrong. The CS was wrong. They should not have done it.

The CS saw tolkeen as a threat. They were thought to be a dangerous nation of Mages, and Dbees. That consorted with dark powers.

When the war came to pass... Tolkeen was a dangerous nation of mages and dbees, that consorted with dark powers.

Was the CS wrong? or just smarter than everyone else?

They didn't attack Lazlo did they? They attacked Tolkeen, who's people did exactly what the CS thought they would __EXACTLY__......

In fact I want to hear you admit that:
"The CS was wrong to attack, or threaten, Tolkeen. That was clearly an evil action."

1) You're not my dad. You're not going to force me to say anything. lol
2) Tolkeen proved they were a threat, they went evil and consorted with numerous evil beings up to and including freeing demons and empowering them.

Tolkeen was a self-fulfilling prophesy.

One they CHOSE to fullfill.

They were only what the CS feared because the CS threatened them and scared the heck out of them.

WRONG!

This absolves Tolkeen of all consiquence for THEIR actions. They wern't mind controlled into their actions. They __CHOSE__ to go evil. They had other options. Those that try and claim Tolkeen was innocent of everything, just stick their fingers in their ears when this point comes up. Tolkeen had at least three other options.
1) Flee, avoid the fight. Leave the land to the CS and not die.
2) Hide, magically, avoid the fight. Hide magically as other magic kingdoms have done and leave it to the CS. And not die
3) Fight for their 'rights' (As tolkeen perceives) but do so in an honorable and 'good' and 'righteous' fashion. Keep their lofty ideals. Let the CS be the naked aggressors and fight and defend themselves (Yet die anyway because they didn't have the power to win.)

OR

4) Descend into evil. Make deals with witches, neuron beasts, and entire armies of sub demons, up to empowering those demons to be stronger than ever in 1000s of years, and become the evil that they were accused of being, to fight the CS (and still die anyway after doing all that. Same as -everyone- told them they would)

Tolkeen CHOSE number 4. They could have chosen 1, 2, or 3.

I find it laughable that you insist that Tolkeen was so evil for trying to defend themselves against the CS aggressors,

NO! I don't think tolkeen was evil for trying to defend themselves.

Tolkeen was evil DUE TO HOW THEY TRIED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

A very important point. If you look up. Third option up there was to stand and defend themselves, but do so with out embracing evil. this was also an option.

One Tolkeen chose not to take.

but then you don't demonize the CS for being the aggressors.

The CS were the aggressors. They saw a threat and moved to take it out for their own safty.

You demonize them for freeing the weakest demons of hell who were being oppressed in order to defend themselves

Yes I do. When you team up with armies of demons, you're the bad guy. lol when you empower armies of demons you're the bad guy. You're quite literally conspiring with dark forces to kill humans. lol

against the CS but what the CS does with Dogboys,

Dog boys aren't enslaved. Nor oppressed. They're much loved members of CS society and heroes. Everyone loves them. The troops love them for poiinting out supernatural threats and keeping humans alive. The citizens love them due to the love of dogs andthe dog boys fighting to keep them alive. The dog boys love their spot in human society.

Psychics,

Psychics are no longer treated as was described in SB 1. They're the CS' secret weapon agaisnt the other forces and used all the time and seen as a powerful weapon against evil now. Sometimes it's unnerving, but your point no longer is valid. At one time? yes. Now? no.

and the atrocities they committed against children are all okay

Which children would those be?

So, if I play the Defenders of the CS™ game...

You realize that's an attack against other posters and against the forum rules right? You're giving other posters a label and then trying to mock them with it.

From the prospective of the people of Tolkeen they were being attacked by an evil force (the CS) who wanted to kill them all, including the women and children.

True.

They did not wish to abandon their rightful homes

They were squatters on the human's planet. But as per THEIR perceptions. yes.

and so did whatever they could

Yes. They chose to embrace evil and demons. Thus becoming evil.

believing that the Daemonix were far less of a threat to real humanity

No. They broke them out and armed them to use in battle against humanity.

(you know, the kind that act Humane, unlike the CS)

Wait.. your'e saying it's humane to sick all manner of LITERAL Demons and evil supernatural creatures on someone?

and freedom than the CS who are, by far, the greatest threat to real humanity and freedom on the planet.

Tolkeen likely saw the Cs as a threat to THEM, yes. But many wern't even human. Trying to hide behind that shield is a fake out. You can't say that armies of demons are more human than armies of humans who are fighting armies of demons with a straight face. Just because the demons were on tolkeens' side doesn't make them less demonic. They were demons. So bad they were eating Cyber knights and picking fights with OTHER demons on that side. So bad that 75% of the psistalkers just quit and walked off.

The Coalition States: The Enemies of Freedom

Ahh but that's not the name of the book.

No doubt that's what some in tolkeen thought. What many CK's that went to fight for tolkeen thought. But in the end. Tolkeen had become an evil nation, fielding armies of demons and such. They werr exactly what the CS accused them of.

If you want to accuse the CS of being genocidal against Magic users, you'd be correct. By and large genocidal against Dbees too. (Though they'd be perfectly happy if they just left with out a fight.)

The Cs don't have to be 'Good' for tolkeen to be Evil.

In this case tolkeen just dove into Evil face first and rolled around in it like a pool full of pudding.

[Shark_Force]

there are millions of bugs (maybe a lot of millions, numbers vary based on which paragraph you're reading).

there are not billions of minions of atlantis on north america. in fact, there are probably less than 100,000. in all likelihood, the primary interaction the CS has actually had with the forces of atlantis (with the possible exception of a few kittani that may not have even been recognized as minions of atlantis) are scattered attacks by the splugorth slavers, which most likely target small isolated communities rather than fortified cities like the CS has. even if the CS is aware of the full extent of the forces in atlantis (which they probably are not, since it's not like there are a ton of humans who can access the majority of it), they almost definitely have no idea that splynncryth has planets full of kydians (seeing as how those kydians are primarily on those other planets that they're filling).

as for vampires... last i recall, if you add up every single vampire kingdom together (which would be silly, because they hate each other) you might have 200,000 vampires. maybe. but probably not. more if you include the wild vampires roaming in the wilderness (but seeing as how they're not part of any organized force, not exactly a huge threat. or at least, not to the CS. they're a pretty legitimate threat to the individual communities nearby, but seeing as how the CS doesn't seem to care in the slightest about the vampire threat, i'm pretty sure if anything the CS considers that threat far less than what it is, and what it is is a joke compared to the CS army even if you just gave everyone in that army a pointy stick, MDC armour, and a blindfold to keep the vampires from hypnotizing them).

so, we have one actual significant known threat. of indeterminate numbers (seriously, i don't think we have any numbers we can rely on and we've got access to all the metagame information which is so inconsistent that i don't think even the people writing the books really know how many bugs there are any more).

[Pepsi Jedi]

I would remind you of your collage days then
When you make a claim, it is YOUR burden of proof to support it.

1) You're not my professor. You can't give me a grade.
2) You're not my boss. You don't pay me.
3) You're an annonimous person on the internet that doesn't like me. Your opinion means slightly ever so slightly more than 'nothing'.

Now. I don't say number three to be mean. Just to have a base to make the next point.

I don't work for you. Especially not for free. My time is worth more to me. If you want me to do scut work, you'll need to pay me, because your opinion, doesn't motivate me enough to do so.

Especially when you make a wild assertion that no one else believes.

Unfounded statement. Two or three annon people on the internet may not believe me. This doesn't mean it's not true, nor is it my job to educate you. If you'd like to pay me for my time, I'd be willing to though. On a contractor sort of basis. You still wouldn't be my 'boss' but you could lease my time for the purposes of education, should you meet the price.

You can either cite a source for your claim, or you can with draw your claim, or you can accept that everyone is going to believe that you are making stuff up.

It's not 'everyone'. It's you. I'm ok with you not believing me. Your opinion, again, only matters slightly less than nothing. In that it may prove intresting, only in context as to what any stranger thinks MAY be interesting, even if they're wrong.

It is not the duty of other people to research YOUR EVIDENCE FOR YOU to find out if you are lying or not.

You claim I'm lieing. Prove it.

Oh wait, you don't want to do work for free? Ahhh... I see where you're coming from. Still you're the one that's claiming it's a lie. Prove it.

It is your job to be able to support your own claim.

Nope because 1) you're not paying me. 2) I'm not seeking a grade from you for a degree. 3) You're not a person who's opnion matters highly to me. and 4) I don't work for you in any way.

It's not my job to do anything for you. Believe me or not. That's up to you

This is why, when someone here makes a claim about the game, THEY have to back it up, they can't just say "I'm right duh, look it up"

Most don't. That or they claim it's in a book and when you look it up you find they've lied or ommited things. I do this often. I'd say almost every week I check people's 'cited sources' on these boards and prove them wrong. Did it just this week two or three times with the claims that those tattoo dragons were native to earth and red giants were native to earth and neither were proben to be true. I do so alot. People don't expect others to have every book and actually check their sources.

I could spend time to cite sources but in that aspect, I choose not to. Not because I can't, but because it's too much like work. lol

I can check palladium books quick and prove people wrong. Doing so with real world things takes more time and effort. I choose not to expend my effort for free.
in short, proving I'm correct in terms of RPGs is easy and amusing.

Doing so for RL things would take effort and work and wouldn't be amusing. So unless I'm getting paid I don't waste time doing it.

Should you wish to make arrangements to pay me for my time. I would be more than happy to do so, but I'm guessing not.

For the record, if I did cite my sources. I doubt you'd believe them anyway, so I'm unsure why you would want me to, other than to waste my time. Something I choose not to do with out compensation.

[Killer Cyborg]

I told Kevin that by my calculations, there were about 1.2 billion Xiticix.
He said, "That sounds about right."

[Killer Cyborg]

As for Evil...
"Evil is a dunghill, Mr. Angel.
Everyone gets on his own and speaks out about someone else's."

[Pepsi Jedi]

there are millions of bugs (maybe a lot of millions, numbers vary based on which paragraph you're reading).

Ok. Millions. A glance said 30,000,000 with in 5 years of the Xit book which was 17 years ago real time. Xit book was written prior to the SoT series by 3 years (From the start.)

SoT started in 105PA, HoH is in 110PA.. So.. at the minimum that time frame has passed. So by estimates (Just the first one I found) The Xits are at 30,000,000.

Not billions. Ok. I was wrong. I've no problem accepting that.

there are not billions of minions of atlantis on north america. in fact, there are probably less than 100,000. in all likelihood, the primary interaction the CS has actually had with the forces of atlantis (with the possible exception of a few kittani that may not have even been recognized as minions of atlantis) are scattered attacks by the splugorth slavers, which most likely target small isolated communities rather than fortified cities like the CS has. even if the CS is aware of the full extent of the forces in atlantis (which they probably are not, since it's not like there are a ton of humans who can access the majority of it), they almost definitely have no idea that splynncryth has planets full of kydians (seeing as how those kydians are primarily on those other planets that they're filling).

Atlantis is off the coast of NA, and to the 'east' of the CS. As to what the CS knows. hard to say. Disavowed implies they know far more than most people think they do. Reguaredless they know that atlantis is a huge island that possesses huge huge numbers of threats. And Splynn DOES have planets full of backups. It's not like they don't exist.

as for vampires... last i recall, if you add up every single vampire kingdom together (which would be silly, because they hate each other) you might have 200,000 vampires. maybe. but probably not. more if you include the wild vampires roaming in the wilderness (but seeing as how they're not part of any organized force, not exactly a huge threat. or at least, not to the CS. they're a pretty legitimate threat to the individual communities nearby, but seeing as how the CS doesn't seem to care in the slightest about the vampire threat, i'm pretty sure if anything the CS considers that threat far less than what it is, and what it is is a joke compared to the CS army even if you just gave everyone in that army a pointy stick, MDC armour, and a blindfold to keep the vampires from hypnotizing them).

Can you cite the source on that? I've not looked at the actual numbers in years, but it was my impression the numbers were far larger than that. Not saying your wrong but if it's so I'd like to see it. Vampire kingdoms was written as a huge massive threat.

so, we have one actual significant known threat. of indeterminate numbers (seriously, i don't think we have any numbers we can rely on and we've got access to all the metagame information which is so inconsistent that i don't think even the people writing the books really know how many bugs there are any more).

I won't argue with that point. lol, the books are very inconsistent and numbers change, often with out reason or any sort of indication that the numbers in previous books were read. ( I still remember the 'Life spans' thing from Lone star, then the radically different numbers in a more recent book that didn't seem to have ever read the rather detailed explination in the lone star book)

Still we'd have 30 million bugs up north. Billions of hostiles to the east (Or easy to rift in, to the east) and even if your numbers are correct, 100s of 1000s of vampires to the south. Still very real threats

[Pepsi Jedi]

I told Kevin that by my calculations, there were about 1.2 billion Xiticix.
He said, "That sounds about right."

Well. There we go.

I don't always take people at their word with anecdotal evidence but as this supports my claim.. it doesn't hurt. lol

(I'd be a liar if I just went BOOM PROOF, because I suspect in the past I've claimed "Hey man your (Whomever's) private talks with Kevin aren't proof till we get um in a book, we don't even know if he actually told you that. You could just be making it up."..... sounds like something I'd say. lol))

[Pepsi Jedi]

As for Evil...
"Evil is a dunghill, Mr. Angel.
Everyone gets on his own and speaks out about someone else's."

Did you just quote Buffy? lol

[Axelmania]

are there actually creatures in Rifts weaker than humans? (Honestly asking) Most Dbees have at least human minimum stats with by far most being better than humans in one or many ways, if not MD creatures with MD attacks.

Not as many as I like but certainly some. Sadly the vest example of mitral weakness, gnomes, didn't make it into the conversion book.

Bearmen and Gigantes are weaker in all 3 mental attributes. Ogre/Elf/Wolfen/Coyle no Affinity for trustwkrthy and intimidating leaders to bring them to goals. Kankorans+Trolls+Algor this and weak wills, Dwarves this and slow. Changelings slow and easily fatigued. Goblins are stupid, Orcs that and weakwilled, Jotan dumb and untrusted, Cyclops slow and weak willed.

In terms of physicality are few inferior but our power is our minds.

[HWalsh]

Pepsi...

So Tolkeen was EVIL NON-HUMANS because they used magic. (So, do you now support that anyone who uses magic isn't human?) Despite you know, humans being there.

Then you're not willing to say the CS is evil and in fact you seem to think that their aggression is completely justified and not-evil.

The CS is *not* the end all be all in defining what humanity is. I find their actions completely inhumane. An inhumane human isn't human.

[Shark_Force]

don't have vampire kingdoms handy (and to be fair, i don't have the revised one at all) but there aren't a huge number of kingdoms, and iirc the largest one has something like 10,000 vampires. (though again, that doesn't include wild vampires, but seeing as how the wild vampires are not a cohesive fighting unit).

the vampire kingdoms are not a realistic threat to the CS. the CS is *crawling* with dog boys and psi-stalkers that can spot them a mile away, so infiltration is a terrible plan. the land itself is not conducive to their existence outside of the permanent shelter of a fortified city-state (it isn't constantly raining by any means, but rain is definitely not rare). and they lack the numbers (even with their servants) to threaten the CS militarily even if the CS had 1/10th of their current troops.

this should not be confused with the vampire kingdoms not being a threat at all... 10,000 vampires is probably a credible threat to many independant communities in north america. even many of the ones that could fend off that attack would likely take some losses (while it is not easy to inflict permanent losses on a vampire army, particularly since a few days with random civilians gives them new full-strength recruits). and furthermore, not everyone has an army of psychics that live to hunt down creatures like vampires at their command, so infiltration is an even more credible threat than frontal assault.

they just aren't a threat to the CS, which has access to plenty of pointy sticks and people to use them.

[Alrik Vas]

Sharky, you kind of made his point for him on that one...

[Shark_Force]

no, not really. that might provide a reason for other people to be afraid of vampires (note: all of those other people seem to manage without murdering anything they don't like justified by their fear).

it doesn't justify anyone in CS territory being afraid, or murdering anything different from themselves. and they don't need millions of soldiers to defend against the vampires, either.

a few hundred thousand is enough to drive off the vampires even if all of the kingdoms combined to attack at once, and the vampires can't hole up against the CS because the dog boys will track them down in no time flat. they don't need millions of troops to protect against the vampires.

(the xiticix are, of course, a whole different matter, though it is *slightly* less bad than it initially looks since there are actually 6 different 200 million strong armies that are not at all allied rather than a single 1.2 billion strong army. also, many of those are not warriors, many of the warriors don't have ranged weapons, and frankly they're all quite stupid in many ways, but still, sheer numbers make the xiticix an issue. unless kevin changes his mind by the next time he writes about them. then again, the xiticix justify murdering everything around you even less, since it isn't even possible for a non-xiticix to ally with the xiticix, and everything you murder that isn't a xiticix was a potential ally before you turned it into a smoking crater).

[Alrik Vas]

The very fact that the CS is a threat to everyone else combined is a strong indicator that their policy is working.

They're just dirtbags about it.

The regime is an evil one. Can't say I blame it. I'll hold Prosek accountable, for sure, but your average dead boy?

Nope.

[HWalsh]

The xits at about 1.2 billion mean 6 armies of 200,000,000 but a huge percentage of that aren't warriors. Probably less than 50% so while it is a lot the Xits aren't a threat to the CS.

9,000,000 they can pop out instantly.
There are also millions of Skelebots.

[Pepsi Jedi]

One point two billion hostile MD creatures that breed at a exponential rate... Noo.. of course not... not a problem.. .Pissh.. hardly a three day weekend....

[Killer Cyborg]

As for Evil...
"Evil is a dunghill, Mr. Angel.
Everyone gets on his own and speaks out about someone else's."

Did you just quote Buffy? lol

Nope!


Angelheart

(Although I have no qualms about quoting BtVS!)

[Killer Cyborg]

The xits at about 1.2 billion mean 6 armies of 200,000,000 but a huge percentage of that aren't warriors. Probably less than 50% so while it is a lot the Xits aren't a threat to the CS.

9,000,000 they can pop out instantly.
There are also millions of Skelebots.

Sounds like you estimate the CS total troops at roughly 12 million (got a source for those numbers, btw?), and that you think that's a match for 100 million xitixix, six times.
I think that you over-estimate the CS's abilities.

[eliakon]

I would remind you of your collage days then
When you make a claim, it is YOUR burden of proof to support it.

1) You're not my professor. You can't give me a grade.
2) You're not my boss. You don't pay me.
3) You're an annonimous person on the internet that doesn't like me. Your opinion means slightly ever so slightly more than 'nothing'.

Now. I don't say number three to be mean. Just to have a base to make the next point.

I don't work for you. Especially not for free. My time is worth more to me. If you want me to do scut work, you'll need to pay me, because your opinion, doesn't motivate me enough to do so.

I see that you don't get how discussions work
While you like to just make wild claims all day and then demand that people prove you wrong the way Logic works is that you have to support your own claims.
The fact that you refuse to do so suggests that the claim is false

Especially when you make a wild assertion that no one else believes.

Unfounded statement. Two or three annon people on the internet may not believe me. This doesn't mean it's not true, nor is it my job to educate you. If you'd like to pay me for my time, I'd be willing to though. On a contractor sort of basis. You still wouldn't be my 'boss' but you could lease my time for the purposes of education, should you meet the price.

Since not a single person here seems to believe that 1 in 4 people is a murderer waiting for the rule of law to fail, yeah it is a wild claim.

You can either cite a source for your claim, or you can with draw your claim, or you can accept that everyone is going to believe that you are making stuff up.

It's not 'everyone'. It's you. I'm ok with you not believing me. Your opinion, again, only matters slightly less than nothing. In that it may prove intresting, only in context as to what any stranger thinks MAY be interesting, even if they're wrong.

Or perhaps its just that I like actually having discussions with people instead of just having them make wild claims that they then demand that I prove false.
I do that enough with kids, not with people that claim to be educated adults.

It is not the duty of other people to research YOUR EVIDENCE FOR YOU to find out if you are lying or not.

You claim I'm lieing. Prove it.

Oh wait, you don't want to do work for free? Ahhh... I see where you're coming from. Still you're the one that's claiming it's a lie. Prove it.

Nah, I don't have to prove your lying. I just HAVE though proved that your claim is unfounded, unsupported and thus specious.
Which means that the rest of the adults in the conversation can go on with the real discussion using the actual citied examples that demonstrate that humanity is not a pack of murderers looking for a place to happen.

It is your job to be able to support your own claim.

Nope because 1) you're not paying me. 2) I'm not seeking a grade from you for a degree. 3) You're not a person who's opnion matters highly to me. and 4) I don't work for you in any way.

It's not my job to do anything for you. Believe me or not. That's up to you

I should correct myself then
If you want people to BELIEVE you it is.
You can say anything you like sure. But it has no credibility in the slightest when you are unwilling and unable to support it.

When you claim "Oh trust me, your all wrong, I am right so I win the argument" and your "evidence" is that you say so...
Well, egotistical is a nice word for it. Logic has a whole series of fallacies for it as well.

This is why, when someone here makes a claim about the game, THEY have to back it up, they can't just say "I'm right duh, look it up"

Most don't. That or they claim it's in a book and when you look it up you find they've lied or ommited things. I do this often. I'd say almost every week I check people's 'cited sources' on these boards and prove them wrong. Did it just this week two or three times with the claims that those tattoo dragons were native to earth and red giants were native to earth and neither were proben to be true. I do so alot. People don't expect others to have every book and actually check their sources.

I could spend time to cite sources but in that aspect, I choose not to. Not because I can't, but because it's too much like work. lol

I can check palladium books quick and prove people wrong. Doing so with real world things takes more time and effort. I choose not to expend my effort for free.
in short, proving I'm correct in terms of RPGs is easy and amusing.

Doing so for RL things would take effort and work and wouldn't be amusing. So unless I'm getting paid I don't waste time doing it.

Should you wish to make arrangements to pay me for my time. I would be more than happy to do so, but I'm guessing not.

For the record, if I did cite my sources. I doubt you'd believe them anyway, so I'm unsure why you would want me to, other than to waste my time. Something I choose not to do with out compensation.

Nah, I will just consider you a proven liar actually.
Since you have made specific, identifiable claims, claims that you say are true, and that you as an expert in the field can verify. But then you refuse to back up those claims, with any evidence, and are un able or unwilling to verify your supposed expertise.
Thus I will call BS on the entire claim.
You can feel free to support your wild claims if you like though. I would be most amused to see it, since in none of my classes on psychology, abnormal or normal, suggested that there was anything like the claim you are making.
Indeed the number I heard was that sociopathy such as you are describing is considered extremely rare on the order of one in thousands or tens of thousands. Especially considering that by your reasoning there should be literally hundreds of millions of murders every year which is easily verified as false.