Twin strike called shots and bursting

[Axelmania]

Battle Magus gets full bonuses twin shooting pistols at same target in one attack or half bonuses striking two different ones.

Could these be called? Like to try and shoot to disarm two railguns a pair of SAMAS are holding?

Also would it br full or half if you called two different locations on the same target? Like shooting for the right maneuvering thruster with your left gun and the left one with your right gun.

Also what is the current status on:

Paired weapons + bursts
And
Called bursts?

[Natasha]

In RUE for some reason a called shot is different from an aimed shot. You can call two different targets but you can only aim at one. A called burst reduces strike bonuses by one half.

[Axelmania]

Why can't I aim at 2 targets simultaneously?

[Natasha]

It's defined to be a single shot which leaves things open, but RUE goes on to say it's a "sniper-style" shot. I guess that's not definitive enough for some people; to them I can only say "try it".

The number of attacks these shots require might be more than the character has for a single round, too.

[Proseksword]

In RUE for some reason a called shot is different from an aimed shot.

An aimed shot is a +2 to hit bonus for +1 melee action

A called shot allows you to target a specific location for +1 melee action.

You can call two different targets but you can only aim at one.

There's nothing I can find in RUE that specifies you can't aim at two targets simultaneously, but even if the Battle Magus can make 2 attacks as a single action, you'd still have to spend 4 actions for making called aimed shots at two targets (once for each target)

A called burst reduces strike bonuses by one half.

A called shot with a rapid-fire pulse weapon reduces strike bonuses by one half. burst-fire weapons cannot make called or aimed shots at all.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The bonuses for Modern Weapons changed with RUE so the BM abilities might need a bit of GM attention.

As to I would rule doing two called shots in the same APM, no. Your eyes are only looking in one direction at one time.
To have more then one called shot in one APM the char would need to have more then one set of eyes.

[ShadowLogan]

Why can't I aim at 2 targets simultaneously?

Because "aim" and "called shot" have specific meanings that apply when they are invoked for their bonuses in RUE or even the older RMB. While it would allow one to burst, I don't think Paired Weapons dual attack can be used for aimed/called shots due to the amount of mental effort required for an "aimed shot" or "called shot" (since now they use multiple actions in RUE).

[Axelmania]

Part of the problem is when a lot of these OCCs with twin-shot came out (New West, Federation of Magic) aimed shots cost 1 action and called aimed shots cost 1 action, so there was less guessing to be done.

Could we first answer the question as you think it would go by pre-Ultimate rules and then factor in additional considerations as to additional attack costs for aim/call as a secondary consideration?

As it was originally, you could do 2 strikes in 1 attack, and it didn't say you couldn't make called shots with either of them, and aimed shots were the default shots unless you were bursting.

[ShadowLogan]

So you want RMB-era rules and not RUE-rules. Even then I don't think you can make a called shot or aimed shot, even with the "free" cost (as it doesn't cost extra to perform), when doing twin-strikes on a paired weapons attack for both weapons (I could see doing either with one, but not both unless it is the same target). It seems to be geared toward burst/wild/unaimed shots.

They main issue is the text for the twin strike doesn't say what if any types of strikes apply or don't apply. I think we are supposed to use common sense, which would seem to rule out doing twin called and/or aimed shots against two targets (same target would be possible). We can't rule out bursts, because some weapons only burst, and wild shooting is something that is applicable based on the situation.

[Axelmania]

It doesn't say anything about being unable to make aimed shots though... so gunfighters can't throw off accurate bullet pairs instead of double-bursts?

You don't necessarily have to be looking directly at something to called shot a location, do you? Sharpshooters are also the types who can do stuff like shoot upside down or from a mirror anyway.

[eliakon]

If your GM allows it sure...
The rules are silent on the issue meaning that it is purely a GM call if it would be allowed, there is nothing in the book that could be pointed to though that would let someone say "Hey on page so and so it says I should be able to do this"

[ShadowLogan]

It doesn't say anything about being unable to make aimed shots though... so gunfighters can't throw off accurate bullet pairs instead of double-bursts?

You don't necessarily have to be looking directly at something to called shot a location, do you? Sharpshooters are also the types who can do stuff like shoot upside down or from a mirror anyway.

While the rules for twin strikes don't address it directly I think this is a case of common sense and the description of what an "aimed shot" entails for separate twin strike mode.

Text from RMB pg34 (HC) states "An aimed shot means a person takes the time to carefully aim and squeeze off one, well placed shot. Each individual shot takes one full attack." So you are spending an entire melee action making your "aimed shot", which would over ride Paired Weapons when doing two separate attacks because you can't take the time to carefully aim both guns.

Compare that to the burst description "A burst is the shooting of several rounds, immediately one after another. Aim is more hasty and the recoil moves the weapon with each shot, reducing the accuracy." Text is clear that aim is done quickly when firing a burst.

[eliakon]

It doesn't say anything about being unable to make aimed shots though... so gunfighters can't throw off accurate bullet pairs instead of double-bursts?

You don't necessarily have to be looking directly at something to called shot a location, do you? Sharpshooters are also the types who can do stuff like shoot upside down or from a mirror anyway.

While the rules for twin strikes don't address it directly I think this is a case of common sense and the description of what an "aimed shot" entails for separate twin strike mode.

Text from RMB pg34 (HC) states "An aimed shot means a person takes the time to carefully aim and squeeze off one, well placed shot. Each individual shot takes one full attack." So you are spending an entire melee action making your "aimed shot", which would over ride Paired Weapons when doing two separate attacks because you can't take the time to carefully aim both guns.

Compare that to the burst description "A burst is the shooting of several rounds, immediately one after another. Aim is more hasty and the recoil moves the weapon with each shot, reducing the accuracy." Text is clear that aim is done quickly when firing a burst.

Good point.
You can't have your cake and eat it too...
...if the book says that the two different maneuvers involve mutually exclusive acts then it follows that the maneuvers themselves are exclusive.
Since you can not both shoot one well placed shot AND several hasty rounds you should not, technically be able to have an aimed
burst.

I most defiantly am in the camp that you can not carefully aim two separate weapons at the same time unless you are BOTH ambidextrous AND have independently focusable eyes AND have a brain capable of such (A couple super hero builds come to mind for instance)

[Axelmania]

You wouldn't need that to twin aim at a single target but maybe to do so at different ones.

Keep in mind you can aimed shot a moving target with non instant rounds meaning you can aim via leading so it never requires looking directly at the target so you can aim peripherally.

[ShadowLogan]

You wouldn't need that to twin aim at a single target but maybe to do so at different ones.

Keep in mind you can aimed shot a moving target with non instant rounds meaning you can aim via leading so it never requires looking directly at the target so you can aim peripherally.

A Twin Strike on a single target can be carefully aimed, but when you do an AIMED SHOT in the Palladium System you are "taking careful aim" per the text, that is not the same as just aiming to hit under a general/regular strike, which rules out a twin strike on two targets because you really can't take time to careful aim at two separate targets.

Under RMB to make an AIMED SHOT took a full melee action (at minimum 3-5sec if you have Boxing/HTH/2fLiving at Level 1). So if it takes you 3-5seconds to carefully aim at 1st level and that is without the split attention that would be required for a dual simultaneous strike. And higher levels reduce the time factor as you gain more actions, but that doesn't help a DSS because the action's time is also shrunk down.

[Axelmania]

You totally can aim at two targets. That said since it is twin shot and not twin aim I can see the gm ruling that each aim costs a separate action, so 3 actions. May only apply to stationary targets too since there is a diff between setting an aim and holding it and maintaining the aim on a target moving out of it.

[Marcethus]

No you can not use Aimed Shot on two seperate targets. Twin shots allows you to fire at two seperate targets with full bonuses but not the benefit of called or aimed shot bonuses. It would be a GM's call if twin shot is allowed to be an aimed shot at a single target, with appropriate actions used. IE 3 attacks.

[Axelmania]

Reading these abilities in their original context (before RUE) all single shots (as in single shot per gun) were aimed shots already.

What about the context preventing the single-target twin aimed shots from being consolidated called shots (2 shots called on same location) unconsolidated called shots (2 shots called on different locations on the same target) or split called shots (2 called shots on different targets)

It's also possible to do a called shot on 1 target and an uncalled shot on your other target, I would think. Like strike the main body of a dragon that's flyng far-off (maybe beyond accurate range so you'd already be taking penalties and wouldn't want to incur more) and shoot the wing of a SAMAS within 50 feet of you?

[Marcethus]

First off not all single shots were Aimed shots Pre-RUE. You still had to call that you were making an Aimed shot. It just didn't take an extra action to make a single shot into an Aimed Shot.

On the issue of Twin Called Shots to the same target location. That's feasible. Two differing locations on same target not so much. Split called shots same thing not so much.

Splitting the twin shots between a called shot and a non-called I would say feasible.

But that all depends on the individual GM's view on it.

[Voodoolaw]

First off not all single shots were Aimed shots Pre-RUE. You still had to call that you were making an Aimed shot. It just didn't take an extra action to make a single shot into an Aimed Shot.

Aimed shot, or called shot?

There could be specific circumstances (like shooting wild), but I think single shots are (or were, with RUE now) generally "aimed". You could also make an aimed called shot that had to be...errr called. Haha. And called shots now cost an extra action in RUE.

[Axelmania]

How canonical are random hit locations these days? Still "optional" like blood loss and living in whwtevr limbo that term instigates? That would be an interesting alternative to called shots to save on actions.

In martial arts you can theoretically do a split kick to two guys heads. It also seems feasible to do two arcing slashes with sabres to behead a pair of zombies in two moves. It should be possible to try and shoot two guys in the head in one move as well, just less accurate than if you did it in separate actions since you split focus.

Combining the halved penalty for split targets and the halved penalty for called shots seems lime the thing to do.

I think it would be better if we did straight penalties instead of fractioning bonuses though. The latter approach barely hampers those who aren't very accurate to begin with. Its silliness like reducing called shots to unmodified rolls like Dead Reign does for heads. Skill should matter a lot in this.

[Marcethus]

IIRC the random hit locations are still optional.

The Split Kick manuever you refer to I think comes from NSS unless it is one of the kicks listed in the combat section then it goes by those rules listed there. I don't recall it being listed there though.

Slashing two zombies that would be a call of the GM, Me personally I might allow such a manuever if the player had Paired Weapons and the WP for the weapon in question.

The Twin Called Shot of the head. Not so much because of the focus needed to make a called shot I do not think I would allow it but it would be up to each GM to make their individual call. If I did allow it the double halving plus the penalty for small target such as head would be what I use. If I allowed it at all.

[eliakon]

How canonical are random hit locations these days? Still "optional" like blood loss and living in whwtevr limbo that term instigates? That would be an interesting alternative to called shots to save on actions.

They are optional, the canon is still that shots hit the main body

In martial arts you can theoretically do a split kick to two guys heads.

While you can do so in the real world in carefully staged demonstrations... you can not do so in canonical Palladium as there is no such maneuver.

It also seems feasible to do two arcing slashes with sabres to behead a pair of zombies in two moves.

No, two slashes in two moves, each of which takes two actions to perform. not one.
Just to be clear
APM 1 Call shot #1
APM 2 Make called shot #1
APM 3 Call shot #2
APM 4 Make called shot #2

It should be possible to try and shoot two guys in the head in one move as well, just less accurate than if you did it in separate actions since you split focus.

Um... why? How do we get from "You can spend four actions to make two separate attacks sequentially" to "I can do all of this in one go"

Combining the halved penalty for split targets and the halved penalty for called shots seems lime the thing to do.

If I allowed this at all I would say that this is a good example of a Wild Shot and use those rules (Straight Roll, no bonuses whatsoever but all penalties apply)

I think it would be better if we did straight penalties instead of fractioning bonuses though. The latter approach barely hampers those who aren't very accurate to begin with. Its silliness like reducing called shots to unmodified rolls like Dead Reign does for heads. Skill should matter a lot in this.

I would say that this is a great time for that unmodified roll though, if your allowing silliness like dual called shots to two different targets...

[Axelmania]

The Split Kick manuever you refer to I think comes from NSS unless it is one of the kicks listed in the combat section then it goes by those rules listed there. I don't recall it being listed there though.

I'm just thinking of the IRL maneuver. You can do a leap attack and hit 2 opponents but I don't see why those hits have to be aimed at th main body only.

Slashing two zombies that would be a call of the GM, Me personally I might allow such a manuever if the player had Paired Weapons and the WP for the weapon in question.

In the Dead Reign RPG I can't really see anything preventing it. I think 2 actions for called shots may just be a ranged weapon thing there, not sure if it applies to melee.

The Twin Called Shot of the head. Not so much because of the focus needed to make a called shot I do not think I would allow it but it would be up to each GM to make their individual call. If I did allow it the double halving plus the penalty for small target such as head would be what I use. If I allowed it at all.

Though I'm for allowing it, penalty quartering doesn't really seem severe enough. I think I'd prefer something like "half bonuses or minus X, whichever is worse" so that people with meager bonuses are more hampered.

Half bonuses twice though, is the same for everyone from +1 to strike to +3 to strike (+0) or +4 to strike to +7 to strike (+1).

People who are more skilled should always be better than people who are less skilled so it seems like we should always have straight penalties. By using divisors, it's basically just making skill less important and making it more like a natural die roll.

It also seems feasible to do two arcing slashes with sabres to behead a pair of zombies in two moves.

No, two slashes in two moves, each of which takes two actions to perform. not one.
Just to be clear
APM 1 Call shot #1
APM 2 Make called shot #1
APM 3 Call shot #2
APM 4 Make called shot #2

1) where does it say you need to spend an extra action to make a called shot with a melee weapon?
2) I meant to write 'in one move' since I had someone with Paired Weapons in mind making a twin strike. I'd probably use strike/parry against zombies since they would be prone to simultaneous-attack you (and are likely to take many exchanges due to AR and neck/head twitch) but they might not be able to hit back on that attack due to the saber's range and a horse might get you out of the way before they could close the gap. (not that we recognize weapon length that much in HtH rules, GMs usually have to fudge map distance stuff)

Um... why? How do we get from "You can spend four actions to make two separate attacks sequentially" to "I can do all of this in one go"

All in 1 action is pre-Ultimate rules when called shots didn't require an extra action. I recognize it's going to take at least 2 attacks to do a twin called shot to 2 guys' heads now. Some might argue three because being able to shoot twice in the same action doesn't necessarily let you call-prep twice in the same action. I personally think 2 since the spirit here is a twin strike lets you do the same thing with pistols in the same amount of time as you would normally do with one pistol.

Combining the halved penalty for split targets and the halved penalty for called shots seems lime the thing to do.

If I allowed this at all I would say that this is a good example of a Wild Shot and use those rules (Straight Roll, no bonuses whatsoever but all penalties apply)

It doesn't fit the situation of a wild shot. It's semi-wild already because it halves bonuses.

I would say that this is a great time for that unmodified roll though, if your allowing silliness like dual called shots to two different targets...

It's much less silly than sharpshooting via a mirror while hanging upside down from a moving train using a rifle one-handed, which sharpshooters can do.

The maneuver already allowed a normal aimed shot (before aimed took extra action) at 2 guys for half bonuses, meaning it only meant half bonuses to aim at something in your peripheral vision.

About the only argument I can see for no bonuses is like an inverse of the crit rule (x2 =100%) in this case treating 1/2 as -50% applied twice as -100% but this is a stretch since it's about bonuses not damage and taking skill out of this equation seems wrong.