Phase Mystic Magic Resistance

[Bill]

In your opinion, does using this power (DB2, p29) require the Phase Mystic to spend an action? What do you see as the pros and cons of it requiring one or not?

[Bill]

Related question; are there any other Phase Powers in print, including The Rifter, besides those in DB2?

[drewkitty ~..~]

No and No

[Axelmania]

It doesn't explicitly describe needing an attack, but not everything that does need an attack always says so. The 'focus their minds' part makes it sound like an active thing like a Nega-Psychic as opposed to a passive automatic thing like a Psi-Nullifier.

A related question might be "does Magical Resistance work when you don't know a spell is being cast against you?"

[Marcethus]

It says they learn to focus their minds to create a low level phase field. Given the write up I would say it's always on like 6th sense and drains ISP when it stops a spell. Just like when Sixth Sense drains ISP when it detects a threat.

[Axelmania]

It doesn't say automatic, a GM might even rule you need to know the spell is coming to negate it. That's pretty crippling though, since you'd need some ability to sense it was coming unless there was clear evidence like a mage casting at your face.

It's no worse than a Nega-Psychic though, they also aren't automatic (unlike a Psi-Nullifier) and need to be aware of the magic to negate it.

[Marcethus]

Magical Resistance: Phase Mystics learn to focus their minds to generate a low level phase field around them that nullifies mage energies. Any spell that directly targets a phase mystic is negated. Spells that create energies that attack the target (call lightning, fireball etc) are not affected by the field and inflict full damage. Likewise rune and other magic weapons do full damage. This power costs 5 ISP per spell negated.

That is directly out of the book. Note that the line: "Any spell that directly targets a phase mystic is negated." That means any spell whether the Mystic is aware of it or not.

[eliakon]

Magical Resistance: Phase Mystics learn to focus their minds to generate a low level phase field around them that nullifies mage energies. Any spell that directly targets a phase mystic is negated. Spells that create energies that attack the target (call lightning, fireball etc) are not affected by the field and inflict full damage. Likewise rune and other magic weapons do full damage. This power costs 5 ISP per spell negated.

That is directly out of the book. Note that the line: "Any spell that directly targets a phase mystic is negated." That means any spell whether the Mystic is aware of it or not.

It also doesn't say that it can be turned off.
Which means no magic healing, no magic buff spells, no magic teleportation...

[Marcethus]

Magical Resistance: Phase Mystics learn to focus their minds to generate a low level phase field around them that nullifies mage energies. Any spell that directly targets a phase mystic is negated. Spells that create energies that attack the target (call lightning, fireball etc) are not affected by the field and inflict full damage. Likewise rune and other magic weapons do full damage. This power costs 5 ISP per spell negated.

That is directly out of the book. Note that the line: "Any spell that directly targets a phase mystic is negated." That means any spell whether the Mystic is aware of it or not.

It also doesn't say that it can be turned off.
Which means no magic healing, no magic buff spells, no magic teleportation...

Yup, I have ran it that way for years.

[Axelmania]

You are overlooking the part about mental focus. Means you need to focus to use it. This would be reflected in using a melee action with intention to put up the field.

"Any spell that directly targets" for adept/mystic is obviously not universally true since the next sentence contradicts it by telling us energy attacks are not affected.

Page 64 the Mental Blast power of a Noro Mystic Warrior also makes no mention of costing attacks. Lack of mention does not mean they are free and a level 1 guy could launch a triple blast for 9D6 m.d. for 45 ISP while also shooting his guns.

Focus means it isn't a free passive automatic defense.

[Marcethus]

It says that the mystic learns to focus his mind to create a low level phase field. By the direct text from the book (see previously mentioned quote from DB: 2 pg 29) it means that they are always creating this low level phase field. Which means it doesn't cost an attack to activate the power as it is already always on. Especially since it says specifically that any spell that targets the Mystic, then says the cost is 5 ISP per spell negated. And it is not directly contradicting itself. As a spell that creates an energy attack is not directly targeting the mystic. It is creating an energy attack that then is aimed at the Mystic via the caster (IE call lightning creates a lightning bolt from the heavens then goes after target, fireball creates a ball of fire which then hurls towards it's target), neither of those two spells and others like it directly target the mystic which is why they are not affected by the low level phase field that they learned to focus their minds to project at all times.

Not even going to address the sheer idiocy of the statement regarding the Noro Warriors Mind Blast.

[Axelmania]

Learning to focus to create the field does not by any means indicate it is always on.

Any future inference I am an idiot will be reported. Please discuss your specific objections to the content itself.

The example of Mind Blast is to show that it doesn't need to say it uses an action to need to use one. The majority of psi powers do not say this.

This thread relates to the "Disrupt Magic" psi power of the Nega Psychic on page 58 of Psyscape. It also doesn't mention costing an attack but I believe general policy is all psi powers cost 1 attack unless otherwise indicated, such as MB auto or Psi Sword.

Learning to focus to put up a field or send out vibes does not mean you are always doing so. That would mean constantly expending energy. These guys are not like Sea Inquisitors.

[Marcethus]

The ability specifically states: Cost: 5 ISP per spell negated. Not per activation. It is always on, but only drains ISP when a spell is negated. Much like 6th Sense is always on and only drains ISP when it activates.

The way you are stating it would make the power way less useful as the Mystic would have to spend an action to turn the power on, which would negate a large part of its protection because there could be plenty of times they would be caught unawares which by your way of thinking it works would mean they wouldn't get the protection of their ability.

[Axelmania]

It isn't stated to be always on though, so it should by default cost an action to use just like any other power.

Yes it would make it less useful... so? Nega-Psychics are less useful than Psi-Nullifiers for this reason, it happens.

[Marcethus]

It doesn't specifically state that it costs an action to activate. It is implied by the text that it is always on given the way the ISP cost is listed and the fact that no Duration is listed for the power. Which is the real kicker, no duration translates to always on, especially when combined with the per spell ISP cost of the ability.

[Axelmania]

It's not required to state that it costs an action, that's how all powers work by default, same with the Mind Blast of the Noro Mystic Warrior.

Duration isn't listed for a Nega-Psychic's power either. It's something you use in the moment as a defense when a spell is launched at you, so long as you notice it is.

No Duration does not equate to always-on any more than it would for a lightning bolt.

Apply any of these arguments to Nega Psychic's similar power which doesn't work automatically like a Psi-Nullifier's, it helps.

[Marcethus]

Actually no it doesn't because the Nega-Psychic is a totally different animal. The Phase Mystic's Magical Resistance is a defensive based power that in it's own write up tells you exactly how the power works.

[eliakon]

It also doesn't say "when this power is active" it just says flat out "Any spell that targets the adept is negated"
This suggests to me that the power will do just what it says on the can and negate any spell that targets the adept.
The focus came into play as they learned how to bring this effect into existence, just like a martial artist has to learn how to focus and study... but then they have the bonuses, you don't have to 'turn on' the PS bonus from Boxing for instance...

As for the Mindblast, that is a non starter as the system has ALWAYS been set up with the default setting being that offensive actions cost one action. If an attack is free it explicitly will say so, thus there is no way to claim that just because it doesn't say it costs an action it is free... because that is the way attacks work.
This however is not the way that defenses work. You do not have to turn on fire resistance, you do not have to spend an action to turn on your SDC... passive features like defenses, senses, movement are by default always on unless they say otherwise. Again that is just how the system is set up.
Thus a passive defensive power like this needs text to say that it is an exception otherwise it is always on just like a Promethean is always phased or a fire elemental is always protected from fire...

[Marcethus]

It also doesn't say "when this power is active" it just says flat out "Any spell that targets the adept is negated"
This suggests to me that the power will do just what it says on the can and negate any spell that targets the adept.
The focus came into play as they learned how to bring this effect into existence, just like a martial artist has to learn how to focus and study... but then they have the bonuses, you don't have to 'turn on' the PS bonus from Boxing for instance...

As for the Mindblast, that is a non starter as the system has ALWAYS been set up with the default setting being that offensive actions cost one action. If an attack is free it explicitly will say so, thus there is no way to claim that just because it doesn't say it costs an action it is free... because that is the way attacks work.
This however is not the way that defenses work. You do not have to turn on fire resistance, you do not have to spend an action to turn on your SDC... passive features like defenses, senses, movement are by default always on unless they say otherwise. Again that is just how the system is set up.
Thus a passive defensive power like this needs text to say that it is an exception otherwise it is always on just like a Promethean is always phased or a fire elemental is always protected from fire...

This is true.

[Axelmania]

Actually no it doesn't because the Nega-Psychic is a totally different animal. The Phase Mystic's Magical Resistance is a defensive based power that in it's own write up tells you exactly how the power works.

Nega-Psychics are more flexible in that they can voluntarily target spells not targeted at them, as it should be, since that is more their specialty than a Phase Mystics. Phase Adepts/Mystics are similar to Guardians in that this is more of a side ability.

Not every single power writeup spells out the requirement of melee actions for use though. This is still the default way it works unless we're told it is automatic or free.

It also doesn't say "when this power is active" it just says flat out "Any spell that targets the adept is negated"
This suggests to me that the power will do just what it says on the can and negate any spell that targets the adept.
The focus came into play as they learned how to bring this effect into existence, just like a martial artist has to learn how to focus and study... but then they have the bonuses, you don't have to 'turn on' the PS bonus from Boxing for instance...

Nor do you have to turn on attribute bonuses from many passive super powers. But in this case, the power requires FOCUS so that's clearly an action, otherwise it'd mention you're somehow able to focus 24/7. If that were possible there'd be some kind of penalty from constantly focusing like that, as there are for other constant-focus powers.

As for the Mindblast, that is a non starter as the system has ALWAYS been set up with the default setting being that offensive actions cost one action. If an attack is free it explicitly will say so, thus there is no way to claim that just because it doesn't say it costs an action it is free... because that is the way attacks work.

This however is not the way that defenses work. You do not have to turn on fire resistance, you do not have to spend an action to turn on your SDC... passive features like defenses, senses, movement are by default always on unless they say otherwise. Again that is just how the system is set up.

Thus a passive defensive power like this needs text to say that it is an exception otherwise it is always on just like a Promethean is always phased or a fire elemental is always protected from fire...
[/quote]
Those passive protections notable do not have costs associated with them.

There are also passive powers which cost an action but which do not explicitly say so. To use the Burster as an example, the "Extinguish Fires" or "Sense Fires" powers are not offensive, and neither mentions costing an action to use. The passive first ability "Impervious to fire and heat" goes out of its way to mention "constantly in effect at no ISP cost".

A Mind Bleeder's "Sense Psionics" goes out of its way to tell us it is "automatic". This is the key word to be looking for. MR is not 'auto' so it is not a reflex, it's a voluntary thing done which costs an action, just like a Nega Psychic's 'Disrupt Magic' or long-range use of Psi-Nullification by a Nullifier.

A Psi-Druid's "Dowsing" mentions it is automatic, while "See Plant & Animal Auras" and "Heal Plant & Animal Life" is not described as automatic so it costs an action to turn on, that's just how it works. A Psi-Ghost's Heightened Presence Sense even goes out of its way twice to tell us it's automatic.

A Psi-Slayer's Telekinetic Air Walk doesn't mention costing an action to turn on, are you playing it that it can be turned on without paying a melee action to focus and spend the ISP on it?

A Psi-Tech's Telemechanics uses "constant" (though it still gets a duration which I haven't grasped yet) and their Machine & Electrical Diagnosis doesn't mention free activation so you must obviously spend an action to turn it on. We also see "constant" in place of "automatic" for a Zapper's "Impervious to Electricity" but not for "Sense Electricity" which therefor costs an action in spite of not being an attack.

The Zapper's introduction is interesting: "Just by concentrating, the Zapper character can surround himself with rippling energy, shoot mega-damage lightening bolts, and drain energy from electronic devices".

These 3 powers are all clearly action-costing powers. This supports the idea that to "concentrate" requires at least one action. Occasionally it is more (like the minutes of meditation needed to Astral Project or a Psi-Druid's Weather Sense) and when it's longer (2+ actions) or shorter (no actions) we get told about it.

This shows we can't always take for granted that defensive abilities are always on, and that sometimes defensive abilities cost an action to use even if they do not say so.

Any other time ISP is spent to activate a power that used to generate a phase field around the user's body (D-Phase, D-Shift Ghost, Phase Field, Spacial Distortion: Self) would everyone else agree an action must be spent to do it? If so then why should Magical Resistance be any different?

I don't get why this is a big deal, there are other defensive abilities which cost an action, like Dodge for most people or Entangle with everybody, or Roll With Impact everywhere but Ninjas and Superspies.

These guys get a cheap guaranteed save against spells, why does it have to be an unwritten automatic defense too?

[Marcethus]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Because the arguements you present are all well after Phase World was written, and IIRC other than the Burster and Mind Bleeder many of those classes didn't exist until Psyscape. Even the Burster and Mind Bleeder were rewritten when added into the Psyscape book. And since they have never saw fit to update the Phase Mystic and Adept to the newer way of running psi classes we will never know how it is intended to run by the writer of the book. I still say that the Focus part you are zeroed in on is referring to their training and not the activation of the power. They learn to focus their minds in order to generate a constant low level phase field that protects them from any spell that targets them. And this is how I have run it and will continue to do so.

[Axelmania]

It doesn't specify constant though, you added that in

Are you arguing that the Burster/Bleeder abilities did not contain this wording in RMB/Africa?

[Marcethus]

Given that I haven't cracked open RMB nor Africa in years I don't recall whether they did or not. I know as of Psyscape that the cleaned up and reformatted how it was written up.

And the constant is implied in the Phase Mystic/Adept's write up in the wording of how the power works. Though it would have helped greatly if they had said as much. It would prevent issues such as this one.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would treat this power the same as 6th sense. Where the ISP cost is paid each time it negates magic.

As it is written it is incomplete in it's text. Which is why we are "discussing" it.

[Marcethus]

I would treat this power the same as 6th sense. Where the ISP cost is paid each time it negates magic.

As it is written it is incomplete in it's text. Which is why we are "discussing" it.

That's exactly how I run it and read the text as it describes it.

The learn to focus their mind part is telling you how they learned to create the field in the first place not what is needed to activate the power.

[Axelmania]

Sixth sense is specifically an automatic defense though, Magic Resistance is not.

Stuff that requires constant focus usually incurs penalties for doing so, we would probably see that here if it were the case.

[Marcethus]

If it required constant focus it would say so and what penalties it would incur since it does not it makes it an automatic defense much like 6th sense.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sixth sense is specifically an automatic defense though, Magic Resistance is not.

Stuff that requires constant focus usually incurs penalties for doing so, we would probably see that here if it were the case.

That the text is incomplete is the reason I said it the way I did… "I would treat…" which are other words for "The way I your Rule as a GM….."

[Axelmania]

If it required constant focus it would say so and what penalties it would incur since it does not it makes it an automatic defense much like 6th sense.

The focus must be present to use the ability, it's not saying "hey I focused this one time and then I got an ability which protected me forever".

Auto-defenses like mind block or the nullifier are very explicit. This has no explicit automatic capacity.

[Marcethus]

That is how you read it. I already said this is one of those situations that we will have to agree to disagree.

[Axelmania]

As opposed to disagreeing about disagreeing? I don't even know what that means. This isn't most delicious food it's the law.

[Bill]

It's not the law. It's a poorly written description of a fictitious ability. You can disagree on the interpretation. Which is why I asked for opinions and pros/cons rather than a firm ruling. Please stop antagonizing people over trivial crap.

[Axelmania]

Terms like 'rules lawyer' exist because we treat game rules like laws of nature for that fictional setting's reality. If it's trivial then why ask about it?

[Bill]

Rules lawyer is a pejorative for a reason. Take stuff less seriously, you'll be happier.

[Marcethus]

Rules Lawyers don't last long in my games for a reason. Mostly because I live by the Rule of 'Hang all the Lawyers'

[Axelmania]

Being a rules lawyer on a forum where we discuss rules for reaching a consistent idea of how a setting works RAW doesn't make one a rules lawyer in play. I love house rules so long as they're applied consistently and fairly (ie letting one player reroll but not the other out of favoritism)

[drewkitty ~..~]

And it is about where the RAW break down or are broken to start off with is one of the times when people come here to ask how others have House Ruled to fix the brake.

And since the OP came to hear how each of us would/have house rule(d) the broken power being talked about, being bound by the raw text was not a part of the request made. Not about how no-one is following the absolute RAW.

[Axelmania]

Original post asked if it cost an action, which I answered. Plus the pros and cons, which I'm not sure how to say other than: it's a pro for the Phase Mystic and a con for his enemies if it doesn't cost an action, and a con for the Phase Mystic and a pro for his enemies if it does cost an action.

[Marcethus]

And I have answered how I run it. Pros are that the Mystic is always protected from spells that target him. Cons are that the Mystic doesn't benefit from spells that are helpful.

[Axelmania]

Except that there's nothing saying they have to use the power against beneficial spells, it isn't unconscious like a psi-nullifier, it's conscious like a nega-psychic, they just have to stop concentrating and the field will go away.

[Marcethus]

I am done discussing this with you. I was stating how I run it and the pro's and con's of how I run it for the OP. Nothing more.