Bionics and Cybernetics + EMP = ?

[ImpecableTimeing]

So, this came up in game this weekend. I have torn through the cybernetics book and couldn't find it. So if its there I apologize, but are cybernetics and Bionics effected by EMP? As in if one goes off, are my eyes dead and my bionic heart and such not pumping anymore? or are they unaffected because they work off human nerve system and the like?

[Library Ogre]

Generally, Palladium has assumed military-grade gear is immune to EMP.

[kaid]

Yup most cybernetics and all bionics are basically military grade tech assume all military tech is heavily EMP shielded unless stated otherwise.

[say652]

MDC cybernetics and bionics are EMP shielded

[ShadowLogan]

Generally, Palladium has assumed military-grade gear is immune to EMP.

True, but in the Bionics Source Book Hardened Circuits to deal with EMP is a feature that has to be purchased. So it does not appear that Bionics & Cybernetics are by default hardened to deal with EMP.

Bionics Source Book pg 87 right column bottom of page as "Hardened Circuits".

Adding further proof is Rifts Mutants In Orbit pg92 for Bioware has the same hardware options. Bioware in MiO covers both Cybernetics and Bionics (pg90).

That said some probably are not going to be effected by an EMP even without the hardened circuits. Ex: Biosystems (maybe, GMs call if their organic nature prevents EMP from having the desired impact), Garrote Wrist Wire, Cyber-Armor, Cosmetic Cybernetics, and other "simple" items that don't have electronics or require electricity to run (a powercell is likely to still function though).

[guardiandashi]

Generally, Palladium has assumed military-grade gear is immune to EMP.

True, but in the Bionics Source Book Hardened Circuits to deal with EMP is a feature that has to be purchased. So it does not appear that Bionics & Cybernetics are by default hardened to deal with EMP.

Bionics Source Book pg 87 right column bottom of page as "Hardened Circuits".

Adding further proof is Rifts Mutants In Orbit pg92 for Bioware has the same hardware options. Bioware in MiO covers both Cybernetics and Bionics (pg90).

That said some probably are not going to be effected by an EMP even without the hardened circuits. Ex: Biosystems (maybe, GMs call if their organic nature prevents EMP from having the desired impact), Garrote Wrist Wire, Cyber-Armor, Cosmetic Cybernetics, and other "simple" items that don't have electronics or require electricity to run (a powercell is likely to still function though).

my view on the issue is:
military grade (MDC) cyber and bionic components especially in rifts should reasonably be considered automatically hardened to emp
"Critical components" such as eyes, heart, lungs and such that would cause immediate death if they fail in an environment where EMP is a known possibility to occur should also consider to have EMP shielding /resistance by default.
"biosystems" because they are manufactured from organic materials for all practical purposes should be treated as such, and thus would be impervious to emp, which really only affects transistorized electronics in most cases. (until the magnetic effects are so intense that they cause physical damage)

[ImpecableTimeing]

Does it specifically state anywhere they are shielded?

[say652]

The statement about mdc shielding is in Coalition war campaign i believe.
But! In Rifts Japan the Cyber-Drone basically hacks into the borg parts overriding control and making them inoperational. No need for the EMP argument that is defended until a Ban on the forums. (Experience talking on this one)

[ImpecableTimeing]

Not trying to start an argument at all, just want to be able to show the folks at the table.

[say652]

Just like magnetism had no effect on the ceramics of MDC gear, an EMP is nullified. Also most are radiation shielded
Though modifying the Cyber-Drone to work on Power Armor and Robots seems plausible.
Hint hint.

[ImpecableTimeing]

I maybe should have prefaced this a bit, sorry for not. In short my character has some bionics. (A lung and eye) When an E.M.P hit. Those things stopped working, so was just curious if that is indeed the case.

[say652]

Nope, GM as always has final say but there is no reason what so ever an emp world affect a cyborg.
Sounds like a plot device or the GM didn't want your borg to survive.

[eliakon]

Based on the bionics book making EMP shielding an add on purchase my take away is that at least as of RUE bionics are subject to EMP.
THAT said, I would, personally, say that means that a 'borg would need to make a save, and failure would knock out non-critical systems. (i.e. I would say that life support systems which DONT have a price in the book which therefor don't have a shielded boost price are always shielded. But limbs, sensors, implants etc. all can be knocked out)
The result is that if you fail your save your borg will be 'off line' for a bit while they 'reboot' their systems. It would not be fatal but it would be extreamly inconvenient.

I would also say that EMP potent enough to trigger such saves are not trivial and thus will not be common place. Thus they will be used sparingly (unless the PCs are using them regularly, there is no reason that no one else should not be smart enough to use tactics as well)

[say652]

Based on the bionics book making EMP shielding an add on purchase my take away is that at least as of RUE bionics are subject to EMP.
THAT said, I would, personally, say that means that a 'borg would need to make a save, and failure would knock out non-critical systems. (i.e. I would say that life support systems which DONT have a price in the book which therefor don't have a shielded boost price are always shielded. But limbs, sensors, implants etc. all can be knocked out)
The result is that if you fail your save your borg will be 'off line' for a bit while they 'reboot' their systems. It would not be fatal but it would be extreamly inconvenient.

I would also say that EMP potent enough to trigger such saves are not trivial and thus will not be common place. Thus they will be used sparingly (unless the PCs are using them regularly, there is no reason that no one else should not be smart enough to use tactics as well)

Where in the bionics sourcebook is, that offered?
I see the Environmental Upgrade by no EMP shielding.

[guardiandashi]

Based on the bionics book making EMP shielding an add on purchase my take away is that at least as of RUE bionics are subject to EMP.
THAT said, I would, personally, say that means that a 'borg would need to make a save, and failure would knock out non-critical systems. (i.e. I would say that life support systems which DONT have a price in the book which therefor don't have a shielded boost price are always shielded. But limbs, sensors, implants etc. all can be knocked out)
The result is that if you fail your save your borg will be 'off line' for a bit while they 'reboot' their systems. It would not be fatal but it would be extreamly inconvenient.

I would also say that EMP potent enough to trigger such saves are not trivial and thus will not be common place. Thus they will be used sparingly (unless the PCs are using them regularly, there is no reason that no one else should not be smart enough to use tactics as well)

Where in the bionics sourcebook is, that offered?
I see the Environmental Upgrade by no EMP shielding.

hardened circuits pg 87 specifically notes its for bioware not for other types of cybernetics/bionics

[say652]

Just checked, Bio-Systems are sdc. Which brings the question full circle MDC Bionics are not subject to EMP.

[kaid]

This is why I said some cybernetics and all bionics are EMP shielded. Some of the comercial varieties of cybernetics+bio system stuff are civilian grade and probably are vulnerable to EMP. Bionics are basically all military grade components hardened circuits would be default on them or your million dollar cyborg would be super simple to knock out of action.

[ShadowLogan]

my view on the issue is:
military grade (MDC) cyber and bionic components especially in rifts should reasonably be considered automatically hardened to emp
"Critical components" such as eyes, heart, lungs and such that would cause immediate death if they fail in an environment where EMP is a known possibility to occur should also consider to have EMP shielding /resistance by default.
"biosystems" because they are manufactured from organic materials for all practical purposes should be treated as such, and thus would be impervious to emp, which really only affects transistorized electronics in most cases. (until the magnetic effects are so intense that they cause physical damage)

Except that if that was the case we wouldn't have the Hardened Circuits found on pg87 of the Bionics Sourcebook in the Bionics Section.

I agree about the Bio-Systems, but just because the others might be MDC doesn't mean they should be automatically hardened. EMP-type weapons are pretty rare in the entire Rifts setting.

hardened circuits pg 87 specifically notes its for bioware not for other types of cybernetics/bionics

Except Bioware IS Cybernetics and Bionics. That is stated in Mutants in Orbit (pg90). It is also stated in Rifts Ultimate Edition in the "Bioware Mechanics" Skill (pg312)

I maybe should have prefaced this a bit, sorry for not. In short my character has some bionics. (A lung and eye) When an E.M.P hit. Those things stopped working, so was just curious if that is indeed the case.

The Bionic Implants would be disabled by the EMP unless you had the Hardened Circuits option. You might be able to reset the implants (or they might kick in on their own), but unless you have 2 Bionic Lungs you should still be able to breathe, and the same goes for the Eye, you'll still be able to see with one eye. In either case though you aren't going to be as effective until you can get the implants serviced.

Just checked, Bio-Systems are sdc. Which brings the question full circle MDC Bionics are not subject to EMP.

It does nothing of the sort. BIO-SYSTEMS by default are considered LIVING system (pg312 in the Bioware Mechanics Skill in RUE). BIO-WARE is just short hand for mechanical Cybernetic and Bionic systems (also from the BIoware Mechanics Skill description).

[say652]

I think it's reaching and the sign of a jackwagon GM, it's simply a case of "Because i said so." With no actual facts backing it up.

[taalismn]

I think it's reaching and the sign of a jackwagon GM, it's simply a case of "Because i said so." With no actual facts backing it up.

And.....lets just stop here before this starts grinding into to-and-fro name-calling. That way lies foolishness and mutual humiliation.

[Incriptus]

I did a quick search of my books and I can't seem to find any EMP weapons. Was the EMP effect homebrewed? If it was I guess it does what ever the GM says.

[MikelAmroni]

In my own experience, any system that deals with EMPs against cybernetics assigns EMPs as just another type of damage. One that those without bionics are immune to. In that regard, just treat it as damage and move on. Like any source of damage it shouldn't be all or nothing, but that's about it.

Also, Hardened Circuits says it applies to bioware, not strictly bionics. So it could be added to SDC cybernetics and bio-systems as well. It seems to me to be more of a way of having shielded SDC cybernetics rather than undoing the previous stated immunity of MDC Bionics.

That said, I am having a heck of a time finding the reference to MDC bionics being resistant to EMPs, though I do remember seeing it multiple times. Also, it's worth nothing that in no electrical attack (which the EMP most certainly is) does it give bionics or even power armor or robots any greater vulnerability. This is confirmed in the Electrokinesis power in RUE, Zapper description in Psyscape, the Black Knight's Electro stun weapon in WB 5, and the Electro Stunner of the Hellrasier in WB 11. They just damage the other guy.

About the best system I've seen handle an EMP like effect, ironically, was Savage Worlds. But again, it's really just a specialized form of damage you can have resistance or vulnerability to. So mechanically no different than any attack.

If a GM uses an EMP to shut you down, you've been hit by Deus Ex Machina, not some secret damage source.

[glitterboy2098]

it is worth noting that "shielding" does not mean 'immune', by the rules. if you look at sourcebook4, under the 'secondary effects' sction for nukes, the EMP merely has a reduced chance of incapacitating technology that is shielded. regualr tech is 90% chance of being destroyed, while hardened/shielded tech is only a 25% chance.

as far as borgs go.. i'd side with Eli. the life support and basic sensor systems (eyes, ears, etc) would have redundant backups, including analog systems, so those would not be destroyed outright. the motive systems and other non-vital systems though would be incapacitated and require rebooting or repair. so the borg would be immobile and unable to fight, but would still be alive and able to see and hear (though probably with a lot lower fidelity.)
i say eyes and ears because if the borg loses it's sensory inputs, the brain inside would be stuck in a state of sensory deprivation. since such a state is extremely damaging to the mind, i cannot see a borg body being designed where such a state can occur.

i point to the Nuke rules because that is the main place we have for EMP right now, aside from a single combat magic spell which operates completely differently (and being magic, cannot be counted on to serve as a baseline)

[ShadowLogan]

I did a quick search of my books and I can't seem to find any EMP weapons. Was the EMP effect homebrewed? If it was I guess it does what ever the GM says.

EMP style weapons exist, but are exceedingly rare. Aside from the Nukes....

MercOps has a TW EMP Cannon, Shemerrian Nation has a EMP weapon on one of the upper-level Shems (built-in), Naruni Wave 2 has an EMP weapon on a power armor suit, Triax WB5 has what amounts to an EMP weapon (Arc Blaster on the Lightning IIRC), the CWC one of the giant robots has an emp effect (Hellraiser IIRC), FoM has anti-tech pistols (might qualify as EMP, I know they came up in the EMP thread back in late June early July), there is also an anti-tech missile in Phaseworld's Fot3G.

[ImpecableTimeing]

I am still unsure what I can post about when it comes to home-brew so I don't want to go into detail and get myself in trouble, but in short it was we simply got hit with one while in space. No real explanation of where it came from.

[The Beast]

I am still unsure what I can post about when it comes to home-brew so I don't want to go into detail and get myself in trouble, but in short it was we simply got hit with one while in space. No real explanation of where it came from.

As long as you clarify that it's home-brew you can post whatever as long as it's not violating a board rule (ie conversions of an IP to Palladium rules). It's when someone asks about a vague rule/stat/whatever and another person posts their house-rules as official that others start to take issue with it.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[say652]

Page 48 Coalition New Navy book.
Any character in environmental armor is unaffected by an EMP, all other have a 90% chance of failure even shielded electronics have a 25% chance of failure.
#Research

[Supergyro]

Page 48 Coalition New Navy book.
Any character in environmental armor is unaffected by an EMP, all other have a 90% chance of failure even shielded electronics have a 25% chance of failure.
#Research

25% chance of your bionic heart stopping...

That's.. erm... unfortunate...

[glitterboy2098]

Page 48 Coalition New Navy book.
Any character in environmental armor is unaffected by an EMP, all other have a 90% chance of failure even shielded electronics have a 25% chance of failure.
#Research

incorrect. your mixing up the EMP effect and the Prompt radiation effect..


the EMP effect is just:

Effects of EMP: There is a 01-90% chance that any electronics
system (including computers, sensors, radios, etc.) within 10
miles (16 km) of the blast is fried/destroyed by the EMP. Even
hardened systems are vulnerable; there is a 25% chance that a
hardened system is fried.

while the prompt radiation section starts the preceding page and has it's last sentence right before the EMP section starts. Environmental Body armor makes you immune to radiation, not EMP.