Dublicate skills and how to deal with them?

[Dobergirl]

I'm sure this happens all the time, at least it has happened numerous times with my players. Basically, this is an issue I run into almost every single time a new character is made because so many scholastic skills give the same skills. It's kind of shame but it's something that has never been made very clear in books but if a character takes say, both acrobatics and gymnastics, right? You get same skills but they have different base values and different skill scalings. Let's say for example; Backflip which has 50%+5% per level for Acrobatics and 70%+ 2% per level for Gymnastics. Do you in this case, pick the bigger base and the larger scaling and just use its scaling, in this case 70+2? Or is it possible to combine them, such as making Back Flip of 70% + 5% per level?


Personally I usually go with the combined with the bigger base and scaling to "reward" player for picking both programs as opposed to making the other skill program's skills not matter, though I would like to hear how other GM's do this, as possibly how the players usually like this to be done.

[The Artist Formerly]

Generally we replace the duplicate with a like skill to show the character's advance in the skill category or if no like skill exists or doesn't make sense, another skill choice that seems rational.

[Axelmania]

People who dupe Acro/Gym get enough rewards =/

But hey, if we're doing it that way, then I would love to purchase Computer Hacking a second time for an Electrical Hardware to get a better per-level.

[eliakon]

The book is not clear.
Logically I see no reason why you would not use the larger of the two bases and the larger of the two level bonuses.
However this would though be limited to something like the subskills from acrobatics/gymnastics since you can take both of those skills and they both come with the sub skill. In which case you are effectively just getting a +x% boost.
If already have a skill (say computer operation), but have a different base/scale than usual then you can't take that skill again to get a better scale... you already have that skill. If you took the same skill again then I would refer you to the optional rule in the Mysteries of Magic book on taking skills multiple times.

Hope that helps.

[The Beast]

I see no one's bothered to read page 47 of HU2. The last paragraph clearly states that the best proficiency of a duplicated skill is taken.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Axelmania]

I think they did but are trying to treat base and level-advanced as different proficiency.

[Incriptus]

I took a class in college that I already had taken in highschool because it was part of a package.
I didn't improve me skill from highschool, I just kind of goofed off.
Just give them the best of the two options


... of course that may be the reason why I'm an abject failure at life and not a super hero. . .

[Axelmania]

The Hunter/Vigilante does set an example that if you already have a higher HTH from one package and another package gives HTH Basic, you could take boxing instead. I could see doing similar in other cases of overlap.

That's just for unique skills though, not sub-skills.

[Razorwing]

The way it has always been explained to me (though I can't find any actual source) is that you only get the skill once with the highest applicable bonus. You don't get a replacement skill. You don't get a bonus to the skill duplicated (other than the standard for your education level).

[ShadowLogan]

For Gym/Acro subskills I would have them track the duplicate skills separately, and when it comes time to do the skill check they use the better of the two.

The way it has always been explained to me (though I can't find any actual source) is that you only get the skill once with the highest applicable bonus. You don't get a replacement skill. You don't get a bonus to the skill duplicated (other than the standard for your education level).

I am only going to state that in some cases a duplicate skill can give a bonus if the duplicate skill is a subskill. Examples are Prowl and Climb as subskills in Gym/Acro will give a bonus if you take the full skill again (and maybe even to each other's version).

[drewkitty ~..~]

What I do for the Acro and Gym is to give the side you keep a bonus equal to One of the other's level up bonus. Letting the player choose which way have the bonus to keep.

Taking my example from RT 2nd ed…Back Flip
from acro it is 60+5/L and from Gym it is 70+2/L.
if the player chooses to keep the gym back flip then the char would get a +5% to start because the acro level up is a +5%. Thus the starting % (ignoring any IQ bonus considerations) would be 75%.
Conversely, if choosing to keep the acro back flip the char's BF would start at 62%.

This is assuming that the char is not a professional acrobatic and gymnast.
If they are a pro, then they might have different style for each skill…so then they might want to keep the skill %'s separate.

[Razorwing]

For Gym/Acro subskills I would have them track the duplicate skills separately, and when it comes time to do the skill check they use the better of the two.

The way it has always been explained to me (though I can't find any actual source) is that you only get the skill once with the highest applicable bonus. You don't get a replacement skill. You don't get a bonus to the skill duplicated (other than the standard for your education level).

I am only going to state that in some cases a duplicate skill can give a bonus if the duplicate skill is a subskill. Examples are Prowl and Climb as subskills in Gym/Acro will give a bonus if you take the full skill again (and maybe even to each other's version).

Sort of... generally, the climbing and prowl one gets from Acrobatics and Gymnastics is a base chance... it doesn't increase as one gains levels (at least not in the book I have). Taking the actual skill will see the character gain that base percentage (from the actual skill) that does improve with levels, plus the skill bonus for their education level (if it is a Scholastic Skill) plus the bonus offered from the Acrobatics and Gymnastics skills.

When I said that skills don't get bonuses for being taken a second time, I was referring to increasing the Scholastic bonus... not the bonus given by the skills themselves to other skills.

I also don't give the +10% bonus to Domestic Skills for being taken twice if it is done as a Scholastic choice... Scholastic Skills are automatically considered professional quality and the Scholastic bonus reflects that (as it comes from formal training)... this bonus is only given if take twice as a Secondary Skill.

As for the sub-skills from Acrobatics and Gymnastics... only a few of them are not duplicated, and in the cases where they are, those offered by Acrobatics tend to be higher than those offered by Gymnastics (again, according to the HU rulebook I have). Of course, I rarely have players taking both, so it generally doesn't come up.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

For sub skills like you get when taking Acrobatics and Gymnastics I take the highest base and the highest % and run it that way.

In the case of skill programs duplicating a base skill I will take whichever one is better (I've seen the same skill listed under..oh let's say domestic and wilderness..different categories with different bases and %'s). For the lesser of the two skills I would allow/was allowed to choose a skill from the same category.

Example..
I was playing in a game once that combined Hu2/BtS2/N&SS. I was having a devil of a time coming up with a character concept as none of the BtS2or NSS occ's were catching my attention and none of the Hu2 options were sparking much interest either.
What I finally wound up with was the Big Brown Hound, a canine alien private eye/paranormal investigator.

Rather than be stuck with an OCC/PCC that I couldn't get behind (due to being unfamiliar with playing a psychic or magic user) or a Alien education that left me woefully behind the other players skill wise the GM tossed me a bone (ba-dum tiss) and allowed me to take two (2) BtS2 occupations (rather than a standard occ/pcc) for an equal number of skills.
Since both of those occupations are similar there was a fair amount of overlap with the skills, (research, streetwise, etc.). Whenever this would happen I would pick whichever skill gave me the best starting numbers and then choose a different skill from the same category. So now BBH has both streetwise and streetwise: weird or research and law.

using that method (subbing dupe skills for one of the same category) is really useful in a game like Splicers where there is a LOT of overlap in education packages.

[Razorwing]

The problem is... there is no official word that I can find that states what one does in the case of duplicate skills other than one keeps the best percentage and adds the normal bonus one.

It doesn't say you get to choose a replacement skill... it doesn't say you can't. Either way has both pros and cons.

One would think that after this much time, this would have been noticed and some official word mentioned as to what one should do in these situations. Of course, this is more common in games like Splicers and Heroes where players choose skill programs than it does in games like Rifts where players of a given OCC have a set collection of skills and then make selections from a list (thus the chance of getting duplicate skills is eliminated).

[The Beast]

I see no one's bothered to read page 47 of HU2. The last paragraph clearly states that the best proficiency of a duplicated skill is taken.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[drewkitty ~..~]

@ Razorwing
Which is why you see a lot of people stating their house-rules. Cause they never read/don't remember the text on page 47 or just plane exclude that text from their games for something that works better for them.

Since Beast stated the canon text, I was free to just state my HR.

Yep, I replace duplicated skills for one from the same cat. too. It is just too much more logical then just having that skill at the best bonus %.

Besides it is not like HU is N&S where nearly all the military and espionage skill programs contain the WP auto-pistol skill and if you added up all the times it was taken you'd end up with Five or Six levels in it.

[eliakon]

I see no one's bothered to read page 47 of HU2. The last paragraph clearly states that the best proficiency of a duplicated skill is taken.

Yes we have.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that the book doesn't explain what that MEANS
is the best proficiency of a duplicated skill "take the best base and the best level up?"
is the best proficiency of a duplicated skill "take the version that will get you the best bonus at level 1?"
is the best proficiency of a duplicated skill "Take the version that will get you the best bonus at level 15?"

The book doesn't actually ANSWER THE QUESTION WHICH IS WHY IT IS STILL BEING DISCUSSED

(that of course also assumes that the GM is NOT using multiversal rules... since in that case the newer optional rule in Mysteries of Magic would be allowed to supersede the rule here.)

[Razorwing]

@ Razorwing
Which is why you see a lot of people stating their house-rules. Cause they never read/don't remember the text on page 47 or just plane exclude that text from their games for something that works better for them.

Since Beast stated the canon text, I was free to just state my HR.

Yep, I replace duplicated skills for one from the same cat. too. It is just too much more logical then just having that skill at the best bonus %.

Besides it is not like HU is N&S where nearly all the military and espionage skill programs contain the WP auto-pistol skill and if you added up all the times it was taken you'd end up with Five or Six levels in it.

That part is easy to understand. What isn't mentioned is if a player effectively looses the duplicated skill... meaning that the character has one less skill than he would have (i.e., skill program 1 has 4 skills and skill program 2 has 5 skills, but since both have skill "A", he now effectively has only 8 skills rather than 9)... or if he gets to add a new skill that makes sense (likely from the same category) to compensate for the lost skill (i.e. the character in the above example gets to replace one of the duplicated skill "A"s with skill "B" to preserve the number of skills from the programs at 9).

My reasoning that a character doesn't get a compensation skill is simple... classes tend to teach a regimented curriculum in most schools, colleges and universities... meaning that they teach the same thing regardless of who is learning it and what they may know. You may take a business course (Business Program) and a Computer course (Computer Program), and they will both teach their respective skills... both of which teach the Computer Operation skill (a duplicated skill). Since their curriculums are defined with in their respective courses, you won't be taught Computer Hacking in one to make up for the redundancy of learning Computer programing from both. More likely, you will be attending the class that teaches Computer Operation to both programs (both Business Program and Computer Program students in attendance).

Not faulting anyone who decides otherwise... perhaps the university they went had more than one class (at different times) teaching the Computer Operation skill (however you wish to describe such learning) and didn't realize that he was attending one in the morning for his Business course and one in the afternoon for his Computer course... leading him to eliminate one and giving him a free period to take a different skill... such as Computer Hacking to compensate for the lost skill due to duplication.

Either of these options is fairly believable, allowing different games to justify one position or the other for their games. My point is that Palladium doesn't say one way or the other if a person gets any compensation or not for duplicated skills... or if he effectively looses a skill due to the duplication. All they say is that you take the best skill.

[Nightmask]

If it's not in the main book it's surely in the GM's Guide that you don't get anything to replace a duplicated skill, if you pick two or more skill programs and they all have one skill in common you're just out of luck you can't get other skills as a result for those overlaps, just like if you pick the same skill program twice to pick up a critical remaining skill but have three skills left over but the program doesn't have three more skills you're again out of luck, that's the trade off for making those choices.

[eliakon]

If it's not in the main book it's surely in the GM's Guide that you don't get anything to replace a duplicated skill, if you pick two or more skill programs and they all have one skill in common you're just out of luck you can't get other skills as a result for those overlaps, just like if you pick the same skill program twice to pick up a critical remaining skill but have three skills left over but the program doesn't have three more skills you're again out of luck, that's the trade off for making those choices.

Again as long as only the HU2 rules are in use, then that is mostly correct.
But this still doesn't answer the actual question asked by the OP.

And to be honest no matter how many times people explain that an orange is a citrus and provide the definition of citrus...
...it doesn't really do anything to answer a question about apples.

[Razorwing]

If it's not in the main book it's surely in the GM's Guide that you don't get anything to replace a duplicated skill, if you pick two or more skill programs and they all have one skill in common you're just out of luck you can't get other skills as a result for those overlaps, just like if you pick the same skill program twice to pick up a critical remaining skill but have three skills left over but the program doesn't have three more skills you're again out of luck, that's the trade off for making those choices.

I checked... I couldn't find it... though I am sure I saw it somewhere... just can't find the actual reference.

[Dobergirl]

I see no one's bothered to read page 47 of HU2. The last paragraph clearly states that the best proficiency of a duplicated skill is taken.

Best scaling or best base skill? Best from both, a combination of the best base and best scaling? It's not exactly "clearly stating" it, it doesn't answer my question at all which is ironic considering it's talking exactly about the same scholastic skills that I even used as an example. It says not to add educational bonus twice only, but nothing about anything else.

You also don't need to quote yourself, we saw it the first time.

[Natasha]

Typically we take the highest bonus and then for ever repeat, we just add a level of experience to the skill. So a level 1 character could start with a skill at 2+ level of proficiency. Sometimes, a repeat can be replaced with a similar skill. I let the player choose.

[Axelmania]

I suppose the hunter (or was it secret agent?) getting Boxing in lieu of HtH Basic since they have Martial Arts from another program could be a unique situation, but it seem to make sense.

Consider the other precedent that if you buy a skill program a second time, you can select different skills.