DB 2 v DB 5

[Axelmania]

I just realized when reading the percentage populations of the UWW that Avil Galaxy changed...
1) Elves to Star Elves
2) Dwarves to Anvil Dwarves
3) Ratlings to Ratanoids

plus the rats got a 1% population boost...

Does anyone know if there's been any shadow updates to DB2 which changed that, or does it still say elves/dwarves/ratlings in the most recent reprint?

For all the blame Carella gets for power creep, seems like Coffin actually creeped it a lot more by making that change...

I don't dislike SEs/ADs/'noids but would have preferred they be a minority of the population, an upper echolon or new mutation of these SDC races, with most of the population still being SDC.

[dragonfett]

Wolfen become Wulfen, and Minotaurs become Star Minotaurs, iirc.

[Axelmania]

Wulfen was basically just semantics IMO since presumably no stat changes.

I did forget about the minotaurs though. Yeah that's a good example.

There should be some storyline explaining how the UWW's 4 major non-human races all (cept the rats) became MDC variants. Maybe some magical experiment that didn't benefit humans?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I dunno. Considering that in my version of the Phase World Main Book, they're called Star Elves (Ect. for the others) and are MDC in the main book, it sounds more deliberate retcon to me.

I think ultimately it was done for similar reasons why the origional 4 Palladium Fantasy dragons were swapped out for different dragons in RUE: Licencing and IP issues. they could claim that Star Elves are Rifts IP (as Phase World is part of the Rifts brand), but regular Elves are technically an unrelated Palladium Fantasy IP altogeather.

My personal headcannon? the stats for Star Elves and Anvil Dwarves are suspiciously idential to Asgardian high elves and dwarves, and the Nordic pantheon has their own private world in the three galaxies inhabited by those races and used as a vacation home by the norse gods themselves as part of the UWW. I think the Anvil Dwarves and Star Elves are the result of inbreeding these devine bloodlines with the regular elf/dwarf population of the three galaxies until they became by far the dominat one, in a similar way to how Sea Titans will eventually become the dominant human bloodline in on Rifts Earth in a thousand years or so.

Note: This is not justified by anything in any book other than the the fact they share the same stats, just something that works for me personally in my games.

[Furoan]

If you want to talk about strange contradictions between DB2 and DB5, the most glaring of them is the Free Worlds Council. In DB2, they were a relatively tiny power block, controlling around a dozen worlds. However in the opening of DB5, they apparently control 10% of the entire Anvil Galaxy. That's a pretty massive step up.

[RockJock]

I always assumed the name changes were based on separation of the IPs. Now I am thinking of a "demi-god" campaign in Rifts. Star Elves, Anvil Dwarves, their Asgardian equivalent, True Atlanteans, maybe Altess.....

[glitterboy2098]

If you want to talk about strange contradictions between DB2 and DB5, the most glaring of them is the Free Worlds Council. In DB2, they were a relatively tiny power block, controlling around a dozen worlds. However in the opening of DB5, they apparently control 10% of the entire Anvil Galaxy. That's a pretty massive step up.

I interpret that as meaning that the FWC proper is still that small state, but that FWC aligned rebellions and insurgencies have spread through khreeghor held space to the point that 10% of the anvil galaxy has at least some significant FWC related presence.

[Axelmania]

I dunno. Considering that in my version of the Phase World Main Book, they're called Star Elves (Ect. for the others) and are MDC in the main book, it sounds more deliberate retcon to me.

Interesting, I wonder which printing that happened in. The UWW races weren't originally in DB2 at all...

So what, now they print them in both DB2 and reprint them again in DB5? After Lone Star / Xiticix Invasion I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

I think ultimately it was done for similar reasons why the origional 4 Palladium Fantasy dragons were swapped out for different dragons in RUE: Licencing and IP issues. they could claim that Star Elves are Rifts IP (as Phase World is part of the Rifts brand), but regular Elves are technically an unrelated Palladium Fantasy IP altogeather.

I don't understand the motive there, I would think KS has more control over the PF races than of the ones Coffin did in DB5.

My personal headcannon? the stats for Star Elves and Anvil Dwarves are suspiciously idential to Asgardian high elves and dwarves,

44 "perhaps descended from the Asgardian High Elves"
45 "most likely descended from the Asgardian Dwarves who live on a few planets within the UWW

Not identical, noticed some diffs:

Star Elves PB is 4D6+6 while Asgardian is 5D6
Star Elves get their PE added to MDC
Star Elves have nightvision 120ft, Asgardians 300ft
Star Elves get +1 attack with archery and +2% to wilderness skills like normal elves, Asgardians don't

Dwarven Guildmaster PB is 2D6+2 while Asgardian Dwarves are only 2D6
Guildmasters get their PE added to MDC
Asgardian Dwarves are impervious to cold, Guildmasters don't have this listed
Asgardian Dwarves are only +6 vs HF, Guildmasters are +5 vs HF, +2 vs possession
Asgardians all get 3 bonus languages at 98%, only 7/10 of Guildmasters get 1 at 98%, another at +30

and the Nordic pantheon has their own private world in the three galaxies inhabited by those races and used as a vacation home by the norse gods themselves as part of the UWW. I think the Anvil Dwarves and Star Elves are the result of inbreeding these devine bloodlines with the regular elf/dwarf population of the three galaxies until they became by far the dominat one, in a similar way to how Sea Titans will eventually become the dominant human bloodline in on Rifts Earth in a thousand years or so.

Note: This is not justified by anything in any book other than the the fact they share the same stats, just something that works for me personally in my games.

I agree with your theory. I actually don't mind the new races, I just don't see why the near-complete erasure of SDC dwarves/elves/minotaurs. Those should still be the core races and the Star Elves / Dwarven Guildmasters / Space Minotaurs should be a growing new group that is still a minority, and compose the commanders and stuff.

Ratlings > Ratanoids is also quite strange, I don't dislike the Ratanoids but don't see why the Ratling race would be in the minority in the UWW. Ratanoids should begin as a small group competing with Ratlings.

[glitterboy2098]

The Licenses thing is less about KS's control as it is about movie rights and such. For example, let's say hypothetically Disney picked up the palladium fantasy movie rights, and Sony the rights to phase world. If they are the same elves on both, who controls the elves rights wise?

It is a similar situation to spiderman, fantastic four, the xmen, and the avengers. Those comic book lines all crossover and intertwine, but the movie rights were bought up by different companies, and movie rights give exclusive control.. Which means Disney can't use the xmen, and had to negotiate the rights for spiderman. Which means sometimes the iconic villains aren't available because they fell under the other licenses. (Like kang the conquerer for the avengers.. He's a fantastic four villain, but is best known for his avengers stuff. Etc.)

By making each line more self contained when it comes to the major groups, you can minimize such legal headaches and make the licenses more attractive.

[Axelmania]

I don't think you could necessarily own the rights to as broad a concept as elves/dwarves/minotaur ... maybe ratlings.

I supposed Palladium's version of them maybe... but would PF really get a movie before Phase World?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't think you could necessarily own the rights to as broad a concept as elves/dwarves/minotaur ... maybe ratlings.

I supposed Palladium's version of them maybe... but would PF really get a movie before Phase World?

You can't own legendary races such as Elves or Dwarves, but you can own specific iterations, interpretations, and characters thereof. For example, Elves cannot be owned, but specific elves like Legolas (or Lictalon)could be.

[glitterboy2098]

and palladium's particular combination of backstory and (described) culture for PFRPG elves and dwarves is distinct enough in details to make it a concern when it comes to the different palladium lines.