Mages Aren't Trained for Combat

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

during a now-locked thread that i wasn't really following much, Killer Cyborg made the following comment that i think warrants it's own discussion:

2. Mages aren't even (as a rule) trained for combat.

I'm not sure what criteria he used to reach this conclusion, but to say i disagree is an understatement.

The criteria i would use is - do they have Combat training - in this case, represented by Palladium's "Hand to Hand Combat" skills.

So lets do a brief run-down. This does not reference every book (as i dont have them all) and i left out Dimension Books on purpose for now.

Ley Line Walker/Rifter - Basic
Mystic - None, requires 1 Other skill for Basic )or a secondary skill
Shifter - None, requires 1 Other skill for Basic (or a secondary skill)
Techno Wizard - none, requires 1 Other skill for Basic (or a secondary skill)
-- it is worth pointing out, however, that not one single NPC of these three classes is EVER seen without at least H2H Basic.
Temporal Wizard - None, requires 1 Other skill for Basic (or a secondary skill) - No Temporal Wizard NPC is ever seen with out H2H Basic, however
Temporal Warrior - MA or Assassin (choice)
Herbalist - Basic
The Three Woodland Druids - Martial Arts on 2, Basic on the other
Necromancer - none, requires 1 Other skill for Basic (or a secondary skill); some Necromancer NPCs ARE seen without H2H basic.
Stone Master - Basic
Super Spy (Merc) - Basic
African Witch - None, requires 1 Other skill for Basic (or a secondary skill) - no statted NPCs im aware of
African Medicine Man and Rainmaker - H2H Basic
Combat Mage (Merc Adventures) - Basic
Rift Runner (BM) - Basic
Gypsy Mage - Basic
Biomancer - Basic
Ocean Wizard - Basic
Ninja Techno Wizard - Expert
Lyn Syrial Cloud Weaver - None, requires 1 Other skill for Basic (or a secondary skill) - no NPCs that im aware of
Native American Shamans (six) - all but one have Basic; healer requires 1 Other skill or secondary skill
Battle Magus - MA
Controller - Expert
Lord Magus - Basic
High Magus - Basic
Conjuror - Basic
Grey Seer - None, requires 1 other skill for Basic (or a secondary skill)
Mystic Knight - Expert
Warlock - Basic
Witch - Basic
Night Witch (Russia) - Basic
Hidden Witch (R) - Basic
Born Mystic (R) - Basic
Fire Sorceror (R) - Basic
Mystic Kuznya - Expert
Old Believer - Basic
Slayer - Expert
Gypsy Wizard Thief - Basic
Beguiler - Expert
Lemurian Biowizard Genemage - Basic
Vanguard Espionage Agent - Expert
Vanguard Waylayer - Expert
Vanguard Savant - Basic
Vanguard Translocator - Basic
Vanguard Mystic Spy - MA
Vanguard Mystic Thief - Basic

So, that's a total of 54 spellcasting magic using classes.
Out of that 54 classes, all but 9 have combat training by default. (so, 84%)
For at least four of those, there are NO canon sources showing those classes without H2H skills. If we add those back in, we're at 91%.

ALL of the classes that DONT start with H2H skills can also be classes that, in the setting, may legitimately never see combat (healing shamans, grey seer, TW, Necromacner, Shifter) as they are either support classes like a TW or healer, or can use minions to do their work for them (Necromancer, Shifter).

Seems to me like the rule is that mages, particularly any mages who are likely to see combat at any point in the careers, are likely to be combat-trained. The exceptions are the ones that dont have to seek direct confrontation or could expect to live out their lives in a support role or without adventuring (a TW working for Arzno or the Baronies for example, who never gets out of his shop).

TL:DR
Mages who aren't combat trained are the exception, not the rule.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Im sure i missed a few OCCs in there, even from the books i was looking through.

[eliakon]

I think it stems from the (highly arbitrary) idea that you have
Adventurers
Men-at-Arm
Men of magic
Psychics

as classes
Thus by defining anyone who is not a soldier class as not being combat trained you create a tautology that no one is allowed to be a combat trained unless they are a Men-at-Arms.
Which is just absurd because it specifically is provably false as there are all sorts of purely military classes that exist that are not classed as MaA.
Battle Magus, and Temporal Warriors leap to mind off hand, but a special notation goes out to the Demon Queller from Rifts Japan, who is raised practically from birth for the purpose of battling demons, trained in advanced martial arts... and not a MaA but an 'adventurer'... guess that means they are not 'trained for combat' or something.

[Shark_Force]

a few of those (at the very least, the herbalist and the 3 woodland druids) don't use spell magic.

a number of the rest of them are separate OCCs specifically *because* they are different from typical mages...

and the specific examples we have in the core books are likely for specifically adventuring mages, which are hardly likely to be the most common ones any more than adventuring vagabonds are a typical city dweller.

of the 4 "common" mages in the core book (i'm using RUE, which is a bit updated), 2 of the 4 do not have hand to hand by default (from my RUE, shifters do have it, probably so they don't seem weak to demons). only the techno-wizard starts with any WP skills by default, again they need to spend OCC related or secondary skills on it. none start with weapon systems or able to pilot any sort of combat vehicle (and 2 of them explicitly rule out typical combat vehicles).

so half of the most common types of mages don't know how to throw a punch worth anything unless they make a conscious effort to focus on that (as adventuring mages typically will, that's kind of part of being an adventurer). three quarters of them don't know how to use any sort of weapon unless they make a conscious effort to focus on that. three quarters cannot learn boxing *or* wrestling (the remaining one can learn boxing but still cannot learn wrestling) with OCC related skills. none of them have good access to espionage skills, only one of them has remotely good access to military skills. none of them start with a lot of OCC related skills available to spend on the skills they actually can learn either. nothing remotely indicates they would typically have a good understanding of how to fight in a group, or how to follow typical combat orders, or anything like that.

remember, ley line walkers/rifters, shifters, mystics, and techno-wizards are the most common kinds of mages. there may be many different types of mages. but if you hear a local town has a mage there, you're probably not going there thinking "oh, maybe it's a lyn-srial cloud weaver". if you hear of an evil wizard terrorizing local trade routes, you're probably not thinking "oh, that will be a gypsy wizard thief".

honestly, i think the statement that typical mages aren't combat trained is pretty fair. there's a *lot* of competition for those OCC related skills that they do get. stuff like being able to ride a horse or drive a car. knowing where to find contraband and avoid CS agents and informers. knowing the value of things they are buying or selling so they don't get ripped off. being able to speak in front of the rest of a mage's guild to impress them and persuade them they should be allowed to learn that spell they want. being able to use a radio competently because it is likely that many cities don't have telephone connections running between them. lore skills, literacy, languages, possibly something to provide a cover identity depending on where they live, etc...

plus, depending on how your GM interprets the no HtH skill section, it can be just fine for a mage to be untrained. if "non-combat melee actions" can include things like, say, casting armour of ithan while you're in cover, or summoning a shadow beast to fight on your behalf (but almost certainly would not include something like trying to hit someone with a fireball), there is very little incentive to pick up hand-to-hand: basic.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've studied martial arts.
I can fire a gun pretty well.
I've played paintball a fair amount.

Does that make me "trained for combat?"

Maybe by some people's standard, but I'd have to feel pretty full of myself before I'd describe my abilities with that phrase.


They typical mage?

BoM 10
If a player is looking for a character good at combat and shooting things, a practitioner of magic is NOT the character for him.

The very nature of learning magic means that a mage is more learned and scholarly than most other OCCs.

BoM 11
Everybody prefers what they're best at
Has optional rules
Combat OCCs get double the normal xp for killing monsters or defeating opponents in battle...
While Magic OCCs get extra experience points whenever they use spells or magic powers or abilities in a thoughtful, clever, or ingenious or impressive way.

Note that "Magic OCCs" is separate from "Combat OCCs."

As a rule, mages aren't combat trained.

Yes, there are exceptions.
There are a minority of magic OCCs that are specifically combat-based.
There are some mage characters who are specifically trained as part of a military or paramilitary organization.
There are individual PCs who can be rolled and written up to be against type, to be gun-toting, highly-trained combat badasses.

But that doesn't change the rule.

[eliakon]

a few of those (at the very least, the herbalist and the 3 woodland druids) don't use spell magic.

a number of the rest of them are separate OCCs specifically *because* they are different from typical mages...

and the specific examples we have in the core books are likely for specifically adventuring mages, which are hardly likely to be the most common ones any more than adventuring vagabonds are a typical city dweller.

Since we don't have the OCCs for these hypothetical 'non-adventuring mages' speculating about their abilities (or even existence) is pointless.
Because as it is... everyone seems to have a class, and that means that yes RAW every street bum has to have some class
or more to the point... it is specious to argue that we should treat mages any differently than we treat vagabonds or street rats or thieves or soldiers...
Class is class is class.
That means that yes, the average mage is trained just like the OCC layout in the books.

of the 4 "common" mages in the core book (i'm using RUE, which is a bit updated), 2 of the 4 do not have hand to hand by default (from my RUE, shifters do have it, probably so they don't seem weak to demons). only the techno-wizard starts with any WP skills by default, again they need to spend OCC related or secondary skills on it. none start with weapon systems or able to pilot any sort of combat vehicle (and 2 of them explicitly rule out typical combat vehicles).

Which proves that 50% of the classes come, OUT OF THE BOX with combat training.
The others can take it if they want...
...since they CAN take combat training as OCC related skills it seems disingenuous to claim that they are not at all combat worthy...
...since OCCr skills are related to your class.
If they could ONLY take combat skills as secondary skills then maybe you would have a point.
But since they can (and do) take OCCr combat skills... that means that their training included combat training as core features.

so half of the most common types of mages don't know how to throw a punch worth anything unless they make a conscious effort to focus on that (as adventuring mages typically will, that's kind of part of being an adventurer). three quarters of them don't know how to use any sort of weapon unless they make a conscious effort to focus on that. three quarters cannot learn boxing *or* wrestling (the remaining one can learn boxing but still cannot learn wrestling) with OCC related skills. none of them have good access to espionage skills, only one of them has remotely good access to military skills. none of them start with a lot of OCC related skills available to spend on the skills they actually can learn either. nothing remotely indicates they would typically have a good understanding of how to fight in a group, or how to follow typical combat orders, or anything like that.

Again, that would require a conscious effort to NOT take any combat skills at all.
Since you are Required to take your OCCr and Secondary skills, they have to pick them.
And that means that only those mages who chose not to take any of the options available would be non-combat trained.
Just like anyone trying to argue that all soldiers are uneducated because none of them start with OCC language or lore skills...

remember, ley line walkers/rifters, shifters, mystics, and techno-wizards are the most common kinds of mages. there may be many different types of mages. but if you hear a local town has a mage there, you're probably not going there thinking "oh, maybe it's a lyn-srial cloud weaver". if you hear of an evil wizard terrorizing local trade routes, you're probably not thinking "oh, that will be a gypsy wizard thief".

That is not what the books say though.
The break downs in the various locations have much different breakdowns on who is what where.
Like Kingsdale with its huge population of Diabolists, or Merctown with its school for Combat Mages, or Dewomer where Magi are the norm...

honestly, i think the statement that typical mages aren't combat trained is pretty fair. there's a *lot* of competition for those OCC related skills that they do get. stuff like being able to ride a horse or drive a car. knowing where to find contraband and avoid CS agents and informers. knowing the value of things they are buying or selling so they don't get ripped off. being able to speak in front of the rest of a mage's guild to impress them and persuade them they should be allowed to learn that spell they want. being able to use a radio competently because it is likely that many cities don't have telephone connections running between them. lore skills, literacy, languages, possibly something to provide a cover identity depending on where they live, etc...

The statement that mages might not be combat trained is fair.
But if that mage starts with a H2H and a WP, then I am sorry, they are combat trained.

plus, depending on how your GM interprets the no HtH skill section, it can be just fine for a mage to be untrained. if "non-combat melee actions" can include things like, say, casting armour of ithan while you're in cover, or summoning a shadow beast to fight on your behalf (but almost certainly would not include something like trying to hit someone with a fireball), there is very little incentive to pick up hand-to-hand: basic.

I have never seen a GM ever allow a mage to cast spells using H2H:none.
Ever.
I guess it is possible... but every GM I have ever seen was of the "Well you get 2 actions per round"
Which is why in all my years of gaming I have only seen a couple of mages (or any other character) ever submitted with out selecting at least H2H Basic.

[eliakon]

I've studied martial arts.
I can fire a gun pretty well.
I've played paintball a fair amount.

Does that make me "trained for combat?"

Maybe by some people's standard, but I'd have to feel pretty full of myself before I'd describe my abilities with that phrase.

then by this standards only characters who have had formal military training should be considered "Trained for combat"?
Guess that will mean we should just assume that all the wilderness scouts, and street rats, and borgs, and crazies, and psychics, and mages, and martial artists.... are not combat trained.

They typical mage?

BoM 10
If a player is looking for a character good at combat and shooting things, a practitioner of magic is NOT the character for him.

The very nature of learning magic means that a mage is more learned and scholarly than most other OCCs.

Gee you have managed to prove that mages are not specialists with guns. Congratulations

BoM 11
Everybody prefers what they're best at
Has optional rules
Combat OCCs get double the normal xp for killing monsters or defeating opponents in battle...
While Magic OCCs get extra experience points whenever they use spells or magic powers or abilities in a thoughtful, clever, or ingenious or impressive way.

Note that "Magic OCCs" is separate from "Combat OCCs."

With no description of what that means
And as I said is demonstrably false since we KNOW that there are combat mages (Heck there is an entire COMBAT MAGE OCC)
And, I do not consider an optional rule to be a good proof of how the system works sorry.

As a rule, mages aren't combat trained.

Again you have not demonstrated this.
Simply asserting your claim over and over proves nothing.

Yes, there are exceptions.
There are a minority of magic OCCs that are specifically combat-based.
There are some mage characters who are specifically trained as part of a military or paramilitary organization.
There are individual PCs who can be rolled and written up to be against type, to be gun-toting, highly-trained combat badasses.

But that doesn't change the rule.

Which isn't a rule, its an optional rule that, just like the initiative system you love to use as your example is flawed and self contradictory.
And doesn't even say what you want it to say.
So no... not proof of anything.

[Killer Cyborg]

But if that mage starts with a H2H and a WP, then I am sorry, they are combat trained.

:shrug:

Different strokes for different folks.

Seems like a pretty low standard to me, but hey... I guess I'm "combat trained" in real life now!



So's this person!

[Killer Cyborg]

I've studied martial arts.
I can fire a gun pretty well.
I've played paintball a fair amount.

Does that make me "trained for combat?"

Maybe by some people's standard, but I'd have to feel pretty full of myself before I'd describe my abilities with that phrase.

then by this standards only characters who have had formal military training should be considered "Trained for combat"?
Guess that will mean we should just assume that all the wilderness scouts, and street rats, and borgs, and crazies, and psychics, and mages, and martial artists.... are not combat trained.

Right out of the box, at first level?
Well, Borgs and Crazies are Men-At-Arms. They're soldiers as a default.
Unless you're talking about Slave Borgs, I suppose.

The rest?
Yeah, I don't consider gang members, hunters, or spoon-benders to be combat-trained as a default.
Not sure what martial artists you're referring to here, but a good rule of thumb is that if they're a Man-At-Arms OCC, or if they're soldiers/cops of some type, then I'd consider them to be combat trained.

They typical mage?

BoM 10
If a player is looking for a character good at combat and shooting things, a practitioner of magic is NOT the character for him.

The very nature of learning magic means that a mage is more learned and scholarly than most other OCCs.

Gee you have managed to prove that mages are not specialists with guns. Congratulations

Two things are listed that mages are not intended to be good at.
1. Combat.
2. Shooting things.

BoM 11
Everybody prefers what they're best at
Has optional rules
Combat OCCs get double the normal xp for killing monsters or defeating opponents in battle...
While Magic OCCs get extra experience points whenever they use spells or magic powers or abilities in a thoughtful, clever, or ingenious or impressive way.

Note that "Magic OCCs" is separate from "Combat OCCs."

With no description of what that means

Yes, there are exceptions.
There are a minority of magic OCCs that are specifically combat-based.
There are some mage characters who are specifically trained as part of a military or paramilitary organization.
There are individual PCs who can be rolled and written up to be against type, to be gun-toting, highly-trained combat badasses.

But that doesn't change the rule.

Which isn't a rule,

Holy Jesus.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/as+a+rule

[The Beast]

I've studied martial arts.
I can fire a gun pretty well.
I've played paintball a fair amount.

Does that make me "trained for combat?"

As someone who has been through BCT, let me be the first to tell you: **** no.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've studied martial arts.
I can fire a gun pretty well.
I've played paintball a fair amount.

Does that make me "trained for combat?"

As someone who has been through BCT, let me be the first to tell you: **** no.

[Shark_Force]

a few of those (at the very least, the herbalist and the 3 woodland druids) don't use spell magic.

a number of the rest of them are separate OCCs specifically *because* they are different from typical mages...

and the specific examples we have in the core books are likely for specifically adventuring mages, which are hardly likely to be the most common ones any more than adventuring vagabonds are a typical city dweller.

Since we don't have the OCCs for these hypothetical 'non-adventuring mages' speculating about their abilities (or even existence) is pointless.
Because as it is... everyone seems to have a class, and that means that yes RAW every street bum has to have some class
or more to the point... it is specious to argue that we should treat mages any differently than we treat vagabonds or street rats or thieves or soldiers...
Class is class is class.
That means that yes, the average mage is trained just like the OCC layout in the books.

sure. and the OCC layout in the books barely has them knowing anything remotely related to combat by default. oh, they can *choose* combat stuff. but it's just as optional as being able to sew, or sing, or cook. should we conclude that makes are generally highly skilled chefs just because they all *can* choose to have the skill at a professional level?

and incidentally, while the typical city dweller will indeed have some OCC, it won't be vagabond. vagabonds are not just a random person, they're adventurers too. they're a fairly average person who nevertheless chooses to travel from place to place in spite of the dangerous, meet new people, etc.

of the 4 "common" mages in the core book (i'm using RUE, which is a bit updated), 2 of the 4 do not have hand to hand by default (from my RUE, shifters do have it, probably so they don't seem weak to demons). only the techno-wizard starts with any WP skills by default, again they need to spend OCC related or secondary skills on it. none start with weapon systems or able to pilot any sort of combat vehicle (and 2 of them explicitly rule out typical combat vehicles).

Which proves that 50% of the classes come, OUT OF THE BOX with combat training.
The others can take it if they want...
...since they CAN take combat training as OCC related skills it seems disingenuous to claim that they are not at all combat worthy...
...since OCCr skills are related to your class.
If they could ONLY take combat skills as secondary skills then maybe you would have a point.
But since they can (and do) take OCCr combat skills... that means that their training included combat training as core features.

no. it proves that 2 of them come with a basic knowledge of how to punch stuff, and only 25% of them come with a basic knowledge of how to use or take care of weapons (incidentally, the one that has 2 WPs doesn't have any hand to hand skill).

the existence of OCC related skills that they CAN choose does not in any way compel them to choose those skills. a given mage *could* learn how to do very basic combat maneuvers, and *could* learn how to use a rifle. but nothing about being a mage makes that in any way a requirement. if the existence of a skill as an OPTIONAL element of a class meant that every single member of that class was assumed to be proficient in that skill, we would have to make all kinds of stupid assumptions about mages (and other classes). we would have to assume that most mages are good at recycling, probably basic electronics and mechanics, driving any of half a dozen types of vehicles (or more), skilled with computers, hacking, cryptography, dancing, singing, playing every musical instrument in existence, and a host of other improbable skills. a given mage COULD be competent in a fight, just like a given mage COULD be skilled as a professional tailor. to extend that as a default assumption about ALL mages is just silly.

so half of the most common types of mages don't know how to throw a punch worth anything unless they make a conscious effort to focus on that (as adventuring mages typically will, that's kind of part of being an adventurer). three quarters of them don't know how to use any sort of weapon unless they make a conscious effort to focus on that. three quarters cannot learn boxing *or* wrestling (the remaining one can learn boxing but still cannot learn wrestling) with OCC related skills. none of them have good access to espionage skills, only one of them has remotely good access to military skills. none of them start with a lot of OCC related skills available to spend on the skills they actually can learn either. nothing remotely indicates they would typically have a good understanding of how to fight in a group, or how to follow typical combat orders, or anything like that.

Again, that would require a conscious effort to NOT take any combat skills at all.
Since you are Required to take your OCCr and Secondary skills, they have to pick them.
And that means that only those mages who chose not to take any of the options available would be non-combat trained.
Just like anyone trying to argue that all soldiers are uneducated because none of them start with OCC language or lore skills...

it would not require a conscious effort to avoid anything. i know when i was building a techno-wizard, i was extremely strapped for skills because i wanted to be able to make more stuff. the same can be true for any mage... it doesn't take a conscrious effort to avoid combat skills, all it takes is a focus on something else, whatever that may be. just like how in real life, i could have learned martial arts, if i wanted to. there's plenty of places nearby that would teach me, and the majority of them won't force me to pass some highly difficult test just to get entry. i could likewise have learned how to use guns, or other weapons, if i wanted to. but i haven't... not because i'm specifically avoiding that kind of information, but because it simply isn't a priority for me. i've focused elsewhere... reading, math, science, history, video games, etc.

furthermore, nobody is trying to argue that NO mage is ever combat trained. go back to your starting premise... the quote you intended to disprove... "Mages aren't even (as a rule) trained for combat."

do you understand what that means? because it doesn't mean that mages are never combat trained. if you wish to continue to bark up that particular tree, however, in addition to the link that KC provided for you (since you apparently struggle with the meaning of "as a rule"), i would like to provide you with another one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

remember, ley line walkers/rifters, shifters, mystics, and techno-wizards are the most common kinds of mages. there may be many different types of mages. but if you hear a local town has a mage there, you're probably not going there thinking "oh, maybe it's a lyn-srial cloud weaver". if you hear of an evil wizard terrorizing local trade routes, you're probably not thinking "oh, that will be a gypsy wizard thief".

That is not what the books say though.
The break downs in the various locations have much different breakdowns on who is what where.
Like Kingsdale with its huge population of Diabolists, or Merctown with its school for Combat Mages, or Dewomer where Magi are the norm...

that's nice. what's the population of those places compared to, oh, everywhere else in north america again? if i go to a law firm, i will find that there are many lawyers there. this does not mean that the majority of the people in the world are lawyers, however. and it would be crazy to try to argue that.

honestly, i think the statement that typical mages aren't combat trained is pretty fair. there's a *lot* of competition for those OCC related skills that they do get. stuff like being able to ride a horse or drive a car. knowing where to find contraband and avoid CS agents and informers. knowing the value of things they are buying or selling so they don't get ripped off. being able to speak in front of the rest of a mage's guild to impress them and persuade them they should be allowed to learn that spell they want. being able to use a radio competently because it is likely that many cities don't have telephone connections running between them. lore skills, literacy, languages, possibly something to provide a cover identity depending on where they live, etc...

The statement that mages might not be combat trained is fair.
But if that mage starts with a H2H and a WP, then I am sorry, they are combat trained.

IF. as in, they don't necessarily have to, it's an option that they could take, and which the game heavily implies many do not take, because they're not adventurers and it's more important to be able to look fashionable and speak in public for their guild meetings than it is to be able to hit a target 400 feet away with a laser rifle.

plus, depending on how your GM interprets the no HtH skill section, it can be just fine for a mage to be untrained. if "non-combat melee actions" can include things like, say, casting armour of ithan while you're in cover, or summoning a shadow beast to fight on your behalf (but almost certainly would not include something like trying to hit someone with a fireball), there is very little incentive to pick up hand-to-hand: basic.

I have never seen a GM ever allow a mage to cast spells using H2H:none.
Ever.
I guess it is possible... but every GM I have ever seen was of the "Well you get 2 actions per round"
Which is why in all my years of gaming I have only seen a couple of mages (or any other character) ever submitted with out selecting at least H2H Basic.

*shrug* it is indeed quite vague, and i certainly couldn't argue that those GMs were explicitly going against what the rules say. the examples of "non-combat actions" (which untrained explicitly gives as of RUE) include things like driving a vehicle, using a machine, hiding, helping someone, etc. ultimately, it will be up to an individual DM to decide whether or not "casting chameleon" is roughly the same as "hiding", but it is clear that even without combat training, you can do some things, and while the explicitly allowed examples are fairly limited, the general rule provided is that it can't be "fighting". that's still not perfectly clear, but there are a fair number of spells i'd have a hard time arguing should count as fighting if you're not even personally being attacked.

but again, you're making this crazy distinction here... yes, all of the PCs you've seen pick hand-to-hand combat. of course they do. they're playing adventurers, not a typical mage that spends half their time casting healing spells on sick or injured people, or squabbling over who should be the next guild treasurer. they are, by definition, atypical.

[BuzzardB]

Hand to Hand: Basic is described as an elementary form of combat training. RUE Page 347

So while not extensive it is still combat training, meaning if you have it you should be considered combat trained.

Looks like out of the 5 practitioners of Magic in the RUE only Mystics and Techno-Wizards don't have basic by default.

So am going to disagree with the original statement that as a rule mages are not trained for combat.

[Saitou Hajime]

The biggest problem here is the to have discussion about it we have to agree where the goalposts are because as I see it people believe they are all over the place. Clearly if people are not going to agree on weather Hand to Hand: Basic counts as combat training would be a start.

[Killer Cyborg]

The biggest problem here is the to have discussion about it we have to agree where the goalposts are because as I see it people believe they are all over the place.

You are certainly correct.

Clearly if people are not going to agree on weather Hand to Hand: Basic counts as combat training would be a start.

Yeah... but I don't see that happening.
Just look at the description (RUE 316):
Provides elementary fighting techniques and methods of attack and self-defense as taught in military basic training or in self-defense classes.

I've never really taken either, but I suspect that the HTH training one gets from Basic Training is typically better (or at least different) than what one gets from a free class at the Y.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hand to Hand: Basic is described as an elementary form of combat training. RUE Page 347

So while not extensive it is still combat training, meaning if you have it you should be considered combat trained.

Right.

Like this girl.

[dragonfett]

I feel that part of the point of contention is that a level 1 CS Technical Officer, a level 1 Mind Melter, and a level 1 Ley Line Walker who all of a PP of 15, all of the exact same combat bonuses (barring any WP's they might know). Hell, Bursters start with combat training equal to a CS Grunt or Military Specialist! Sure, they may not have the option to upgrade at character creation like the others do, but still!

I think as an optional house rule, allowing Man-at-Arms classes to spend skill selections to improve their "level of proficiency" with a weapon or Hand-to-Hand skill at character creation, up to two levels (so they would start off as level three). Is it perfect? No, but it does at least help show that Man-at-Arms classes are more combat capable than the rest of the classes.

Killer Cyborg, it really depends on the branch of military you went through Basic Training for, and what your specific job in that branch was.

I was in the Air Force and we received no combat training outside of learning how to fire an M-16.

[Killer Cyborg]

Killer Cyborg, it really depends on the branch of military you went through Basic Training for, and what your specific job in that branch was.

I was in the Air Force and we received no combat training outside of learning how to fire an M-16.

I did wonder a bit about the Air Force!
Thanks for the clarification.

Personally, I always took HTH Basic as applying to poorly trained military/police, untrained but experienced brawlers, self-defense classes and low-end sport martial arts classes, and to people who's training WOULD have been expert if they'd been good at it, but they're not.

HTH Expert is described as something that "Commandos" learn on one page (the one I cited before), but on the pages where the skills are actually statted out, HTH Basic describes itself as being just above non-trained characters, and Expert is what "police and soldiers" learn.
So there's a bit of a discrepancy just in RUE on what the skills cover, exactly.

[dragonfett]

Killer Cyborg, it really depends on the branch of military you went through Basic Training for, and what your specific job in that branch was.

I was in the Air Force and we received no combat training outside of learning how to fire an M-16.

I did wonder a bit about the Air Force!
Thanks for the clarification.

Personally, I always took HTH Basic as applying to poorly trained military/police, untrained but experienced brawlers, self-defense classes and low-end sport martial arts classes, and to people who's training WOULD have been expert if they'd been good at it, but they're not.

HTH Expert is described as something that "Commandos" learn on one page (the one I cited before), but on the pages where the skills are actually statted out, HTH Basic describes itself as being just above non-trained characters, and Expert is what "police and soldiers" learn.
So there's a bit of a discrepancy just in RUE on what the skills cover, exactly.

Mind you I went through Basic Training just a couple of months prior to 9/11, and about 4 years after I did Basic, they re-vamped it to add a couple of weeks to it, but I honestly don't know what they added.

I'm with you in that H2H: Basic is essentially what Army recruits learn when they go through their Basic Training, and Expert is what the more combat oriented MOS's learn (Infantry, MP's, etc.), while the elite (Airborn Rangers) would have the equivalent of either Martial Arts or Assassin.

The Marine Corps would start off at Expert.

(Now mind you that Air Force Security Forces, our version of MP's, would still have Expert for their H2H)

[glitterboy2098]

honestly, i try to look at it holistically.

a CS grunt or a Merc Soldier is clearly combat trained. their skills are heavy on weapons and tactics related subjects as part of the OCC skills, their equipment has emphasis on guns, explosives, and armor, and their personalities are generally meant to have "this guy fights wars" as a feature.

a Ley Line Walker or Shifter on the other hand has more emphasis on Lore's and knowledge skills, lighter on guns and tactics. their equipment includes guns and armor, but not as heavy or as much generally, and has a lot more focus on non-military things. and their personality is generally presented as being more interested in learning and studying magic and mystical things than in fighting.

a mage can be very strong in combat, and you can build a "soldier" mage if your willing to devote your OCC related and secondary skills to the task, but as the OCC's are written, the difference between a LLW and a merc soldier is similar to that of a schoolteacher or engineer that joins a local militia compared to a special forces member. both know how to fight, but the Special forces guy is generally going to be much better skilled at the art of war, and have a wider range of combat skills. the militia guy on the otherhand would just know more about certain subjects, and thus be able to employ some tricks and ideas the formally trained soldier wouldn't or couldn't use.


that said there are certainly soldier-mages around (battle magus for example) that combine both.

[Shark_Force]

trying to make palladium hand-to-hand skills fit into various categories of modern combat training doesn't really work very well.

the simple fact is, palladium hand-to-hand skills are essentially all about unarmed combat, with a little bit about using weapons like swords, clubs, etc in there. and let's face it, while i expect many modern militaries require their troops to be capable to at least some extent with unarmed combat and melee weapons (and some have even developed special martial arts for their military that includes that kind of training, in addition to other weapons - krav maga for example), none of them are really *focused* on that any more, and they haven't really been for centuries in the most technologically advanced societies (obviously, nations that are not industrialized and don't have access to the materials or expertise to make guns don't use guns... and they also generally get facerolled by nations that do have those things).

the palladium hand to hand skills are a very odd basis for generic combat training, because they *don't* really represent general combat training. they represent the kind of skills you would learn if you took martial arts classes of some form.

a modern infantryman's training today would likely spend a very short amount of time teaching you how to throw a punch or kick, maybe a bit of time with knives or bayonets, and a lot more time on firearms, how to find or make good cover, how to advance through enemy fire when you don't have the best cover, how to properly provide covering fire without shooting your friends in the back, how to quickly cross open ground, how to support each other as a unit of soldiers, etc.

now, certainly, i would not be surprised in the slightest if actual martial arts training (of some form, including boxing, wrestling, etc) was more common amongst people who choose to become soldiers (or police officers, etc). particularly amongst special forces that use a lot of stealth (a knife is a perfectly effective killing tool in close quarters, even more so from surprise in close quarters, and has the advantage of being much quieter than a gun). but is that *really* the focus of modern combat? the US does a lot of training for their full-time soldiers after basic training. but how much of it focuses on being able to do a roundhouse kick or a leap attack, and how much focuses on understanding how to use other tools and equipment?

hand to hand skills as the basis of all "combat training" don't really make a lot of sense in a modern setting. we're just still using them because palladium hasn't changed much about that in the past few decades (i understand that the original palladium RPG actually had different hand-to-hand skills for each OCC, but since they went to the basic - expert - martial arts/assassin system, i mean).

[eliakon]

And there is the problem that the four basic H2H skills...
Basic is "Anything that is not a mastery"
Expert is "Master of hand to hand"
Martial Arts is "ALL Martial Arts"
Asassin is "You dead now"

Never mind the fact that you can't replicate stuff like the Real-world belt ranking system

Combat training (what ever that is) seems to end up being a totally arbitrary thing that as far as I can see from this thread is based almost totally on the perceptions of the players/GM at the individual table looking at the individual character.

[The Beast]

Killer Cyborg, it really depends on the branch of military you went through Basic Training for, and what your specific job in that branch was.

I was in the Air Force and we received no combat training outside of learning how to fire an M-16.

I was in the Army, specifically the Signal Corps. This meant I had a support MOS and not a combat arms MOS. When I went through BCT in '97 they really didn't spend much time on hand-to-hand combat. As with you, they mostly taught us on the M-16. I don't recall receiving any sort of hand-to-hand combat training (aside from using the M-16 with a bayonet) until I had switched to the DENG and my unit was activated to help DAFB with their security while they were ramping up for the Iraq invasion. When I went back into the Army in '06, my unit started to incorporate combatives once a week during PT after we got back from Iraq in late '07. This lasted until I became a recruiter and moved to where I'd be recruiting out of.

Now when I was on recruiting duty, I got the chance to work with soldiers that had a combat arms MOS. The soldiers I spoke with said they did combatives once or twice a week. The Army also started teaching combatives during BCT for everyone sometime around '08 or '09.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[SpiritInterface]

Hand to Hand: Basic is described as an elementary form of combat training. RUE Page 347

So while not extensive it is still combat training, meaning if you have it you should be considered combat trained.

Right.

Like this girl.

Would someone please define combat trained.

As someone who has gone through courses on defensive hand to hand fighting along with holds and locks, offensive and defensive baton and knife use, offensive and defensive handgun use, long arm and shotgun use, anti-terrorist courses, use of force training, I don't consider myself "combat trained".

[Axelmania]

I figure at the time, this was a way of saying that not every magic OCC started with a combat skill.

I guess you could say the same of scholars/adventurers though.

Then there was the higher SDC that Men at Arms got, the 1D4x10, which could be looked at as a portion of combat training.

Game Master Guide page 42 also issued a special +1 to parry energy blasts within 30 feet for Men at Arms. This is especially useful considering attribute/skill bonuses do not apply, it's unmodified except in special cases like this. Helps to offset the -10 to parry penalty for attacks within 400 feet.

[Blue_Lion]

trying to make palladium hand-to-hand skills fit into various categories of modern combat training doesn't really work very well.

the simple fact is, palladium hand-to-hand skills are essentially all about unarmed combat, with a little bit about using weapons like swords, clubs, etc in there. and let's face it, while i expect many modern militaries require their troops to be capable to at least some extent with unarmed combat and melee weapons (and some have even developed special martial arts for their military that includes that kind of training, in addition to other weapons - krav maga for example), none of them are really *focused* on that any more, and they haven't really been for centuries in the most technologically advanced societies (obviously, nations that are not industrialized and don't have access to the materials or expertise to make guns don't use guns... and they also generally get facerolled by nations that do have those things).

the palladium hand to hand skills are a very odd basis for generic combat training, because they *don't* really represent general combat training. they represent the kind of skills you would learn if you took martial arts classes of some form.

a modern infantryman's training today would likely spend a very short amount of time teaching you how to throw a punch or kick, maybe a bit of time with knives or bayonets, and a lot more time on firearms, how to find or make good cover, how to advance through enemy fire when you don't have the best cover, how to properly provide covering fire without shooting your friends in the back, how to quickly cross open ground, how to support each other as a unit of soldiers, etc.

now, certainly, i would not be surprised in the slightest if actual martial arts training (of some form, including boxing, wrestling, etc) was more common amongst people who choose to become soldiers (or police officers, etc). particularly amongst special forces that use a lot of stealth (a knife is a perfectly effective killing tool in close quarters, even more so from surprise in close quarters, and has the advantage of being much quieter than a gun). but is that *really* the focus of modern combat? the US does a lot of training for their full-time soldiers after basic training. but how much of it focuses on being able to do a roundhouse kick or a leap attack, and how much focuses on understanding how to use other tools and equipment?

hand to hand skills as the basis of all "combat training" don't really make a lot of sense in a modern setting. we're just still using them because palladium hasn't changed much about that in the past few decades (i understand that the original palladium RPG actually had different hand-to-hand skills for each OCC, but since they went to the basic - expert - martial arts/assassin system, i mean).

Standards for US basic training. 1 week fire arms training with only 1 day being life fire range, combativs (hand to hand) 1 week.
Training also includes first aid, basic land navigation, individual tataics, Drill and cermony. The bigest part of training is probally physical training. Infentry training has higher focus on US tatics and small group traing.

Basically we spend equal time on hand to hand and marksmanship.

Now then are mages soldiers?
Nations like Kingsdale, Tolkeen, Lazlo use the base 4 mage classes as part of their military. So the core mage classes are part of military and have a chance to have combat training. Assuming they have no combat training can be flawed.

[Shark_Force]

again, the claim that you need to disprove is not that no mage can be combat trained, but rather that most mages are not trained for combat.

[Nightmask]

I think the real issue comes down to the difference between combat-trained and combat-experienced. Sure they can put you through simulated combat and give you some practice with the various gear and weapons of combat but it's the combat experience that counts. A mage may not have a program of combat training but have plenty of combat experience putting him well above the guy who's just been practicing at it.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the real issue comes down to the difference between combat-trained and combat-experienced. Sure they can put you through simulated combat and give you some practice with the various gear and weapons of combat but it's the combat experience that counts. A mage may not have a program of combat training but have plenty of combat experience putting him well above the guy who's just been practicing at it.

Agreed. I think this aspect would be best judged by character level and by what kind of battles the character has seen.
But when it comes to keeping your stuff together during combat, there's no substitute for experience in the long run.
A 5th level mage who's been in an active (i.e., lots of combat) militia will be potentially more likely to keep calm during a heavy firefight than a green 1st level CS recruit, for example.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Personally, I always took HTH Basic as applying to poorly trained military/police, untrained but experienced brawlers, self-defense classes and low-end sport martial arts classes, and to people who's training WOULD have been expert if they'd been good at it, but they're not.

This doesn't wash.

If this is true, then the most modern and advanced armies on the planet dont train their soldiers any better than someone who is bad at sports...

I'm just not buying that.

Merc Soldiers - Basic
CS Grunts - Basic
CS Tech Officers - Basic
CS Rangers - Basic
CS RPA Flyboys - Basic
Glitter Boy Pilots(!) - Basic
Knights/Royal Knights (England) - Basic
NGR Infantry - Basic
Cyborg Soldiers - Basic
New Navy - Basic (Marines get Expert)

Those are the majority of the "professional soldier" type OCCs we have that aren't more well trained for some reason (Elite RPA, Cyborg Shock Troops, Juicers, etc) - I.E. the guys that make up most of your fighting force...

And they all get Basic.

The entire idea that the biggest technological powers of Rifts Earth only train their soldiers slightly better than some schlub at the local gym is a farce on its face.

Truth is, all we have to go on is game mechanics.

Game-mechanically, an OCC that gets H2H Basic is no different from any other. Any OCC that gets combat training of some kind and some W.P.s is just as combat trained as any other.

Standing by initial statement: Mages who *aren't* combat trained are the exception, not the rule.

[Shark_Force]

Personally, I always took HTH Basic as applying to poorly trained military/police, untrained but experienced brawlers, self-defense classes and low-end sport martial arts classes, and to people who's training WOULD have been expert if they'd been good at it, but they're not.

This doesn't wash.

If this is true, then the most modern and advanced armies on the planet dont train their soldiers any better than someone who is bad at sports...

I'm just not buying that.

Merc Soldiers - Basic
CS Grunts - Basic
CS Tech Officers - Basic
CS Rangers - Basic
CS RPA Flyboys - Basic
Glitter Boy Pilots(!) - Basic
Knights/Royal Knights (England) - Basic
NGR Infantry - Basic
Cyborg Soldiers - Basic
New Navy - Basic (Marines get Expert)

Those are the majority of the "professional soldier" type OCCs we have that aren't more well trained for some reason (Elite RPA, Cyborg Shock Troops, Juicers, etc) - I.E. the guys that make up most of your fighting force...

And they all get Basic.

The entire idea that the biggest technological powers of Rifts Earth only train their soldiers slightly better than some schlub at the local gym is a farce on its face.

Truth is, all we have to go on is game mechanics.

Game-mechanically, an OCC that gets H2H Basic is no different from any other. Any OCC that gets combat training of some kind and some W.P.s is just as combat trained as any other.

Standing by initial statement: Mages who *aren't* combat trained are the exception, not the rule.

most mages don't get starting WPs, they have to spend optional resources on them. in an MDC world, if you don't know how to use an MD-inflicting weapon, you are not combat trained.

having one and only one skill that relates to combat at all is woefully underprepared. no weapon systems, no WPs, no ability to pilot military vehicles, no skills that indicate an understanding of strategy, tactics, or how to fight as a group, no built-in bonuses to combat maneuvers like strike, parry, or dodge, no skills useful for locating an enemy or avoiding ambushes...

if you're sending someone into combat like that in the modern world, you're sending them woefully unprepared for combat. knowing how to throw a basic punch or kick without breaking your toes is *not* combat-trained for anyone who actually expects to get into combat on even a semi-regular basis. on rifts earth, where you can be literally incapable of harming someone without the right tools, a lack of WPs is a particularly absurd notion for someone who is supposed to be "combat-trained".

all those other OCCs you mentioned start with multiple WPs, often default skills or good access to skills to operate heavy military hardware and sensors, physical skills that boost their overall physical attributes (or just having straight up attribute boosts) as well as typically superior access to such skills, sometimes bonuses to specific combat maneuvers like strike, parry, or dodge, good access to military and espionage skills... and undefinables like an understanding of how to fight as a unit that isn't really quantified in rifts.

[Saitou Hajime]

Hand to Hand: Basic is described as an elementary form of combat training. RUE Page 347

So while not extensive it is still combat training, meaning if you have it you should be considered combat trained.

Right.

Like this girl.

Would someone please define combat trained.

As someone who has gone through courses on defensive hand to hand fighting along with holds and locks, offensive and defensive baton and knife use, offensive and defensive handgun use, long arm and shotgun use, anti-terrorist courses, use of force training, I don't consider myself "combat trained".

But some people would call you combat trained, since we haven't agreed what make combat trained it hard to say. first we have to agree what combat trained means.

[Killer Cyborg]

Personally, I always took HTH Basic as applying to poorly trained military/police, untrained but experienced brawlers, self-defense classes and low-end sport martial arts classes, and to people who's training WOULD have been expert if they'd been good at it, but they're not.

This doesn't wash.

If this is true, then the most modern and advanced armies on the planet dont train their soldiers any better than someone who is bad at sports...

No... it would mean that, when it comes specifically to hand to hand combat, that the majority of modern and advanced armies on Rifts Earth don't train their soldiers better than somebody who is pretty decent at sports.

I'm just not buying that.

Noted.

Merc Soldiers - Basic
CS Grunts - Basic
CS Tech Officers - Basic
CS Rangers - Basic
CS RPA Flyboys - Basic
Glitter Boy Pilots(!) - Basic
Knights/Royal Knights (England) - Basic
NGR Infantry - Basic
Cyborg Soldiers - Basic
New Navy - Basic (Marines get Expert)

Those are the majority of the "professional soldier" type OCCs we have that aren't more well trained for some reason (Elite RPA, Cyborg Shock Troops, Juicers, etc) - I.E. the guys that make up most of your fighting force...

And they all get Basic.

Yup!
Don't blame me--Palladium is the one who lumped "soldier" and "self-defense class" into one category.

The entire idea that the biggest technological powers of Rifts Earth only train their soldiers slightly better than some schlub at the local gym is a farce on its face.

It IS a farce... but it's also not true.
The schlub at the local gym might know HTH Basic (or not), but does he (or she) also know:
Body Building
Climbing
Pilot Hovercraft
Pilot Tank/APC
Robot Combat: Basic
Sensory Equipment
Running
WP Energy Pistol
WP Energy Rifle

There is more to being a soldier than knowing how to punch and kick people.
In modern militaries, that's really one of the least useful parts of combat.
In the world of Rifts, the differences between Basic and Expert HTH are minimal, especially at low level, and most grunts are going to be low level.
At first level, both HTH Basic and HTH Expert are virtually identical. They both get 4 attacks per melee, +2 to pull punch, and +2 to roll with impact.
HTH Expert's only advantage at level 1 is that they can kick for 1d8 SDC.
At second level, HTH Basic provides +2 to Parry/Dodge, and HTH Expert provides +3 to Parry/Dodge.
But HTH Expert takes roughly twice the amount of training (judging by the fact that people with HTH Basic have to spend an entire skill slot in order to upgrade).

In most fights on Rifts Earth, Grunts aren't going to need subtle bonuses like that. HTH Expert is better than Basic, yes, but not so much better that it's necessarily worth the military's time to train them to Expert level instead of training them to have HTH Basic AND Robot Combat: Basic.

Truth is, all we have to go on is game mechanics.

Not at all!
We also have lots of flavor text, and the understanding that training soldiers for combat involves a LOT more than just teaching them to punch and kick, or how to fire a weapon.

Game-mechanically, an OCC that gets H2H Basic is no different from any other. Any OCC that gets combat training of some kind and some W.P.s is just as combat trained as any other.

Well, no. Even from a mechanical point of view, the more combat-useful skills you have, the more combat trained you are.
If one guy has HTH Basic and WP Blowgun, and another guy has HTH Basic, Robot Combat: Basic, WP Energy Pistol, WP Energy Rifle, Pilot: Tanks/APCs, Boxing, Wrestling, and so on, and so forth, then the second guy is definitely more combat trained.

From where I'm sitting, any definition of "combat trained" that puts this little girl on equal footing to a trained soldier is a pretty poor definition.

Standing by initial statement: Mages who *aren't* combat trained are the exception, not the rule.

Nope.
Remember that the context of the original conversation that this was spun off of: keeping calm and avoiding panic during mega-damage firefights.
If the CS puts you through basic training, then you're going to be a lot more prepared for that kind of thing than if you took a class at the Y, and you plink bottles in your spare time. Even though both characters might qualify for HTH Basic and WP Energy Pistol (or whatever), that doesn't mean that they're going to be on equal mental footing when it comes to a firefight.
Rifts is a role-playing game, after all. It's not all about straight mechanics in a vacuum.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hand to Hand: Basic is described as an elementary form of combat training. RUE Page 347

So while not extensive it is still combat training, meaning if you have it you should be considered combat trained.

Right.

Like this girl.

Would someone please define combat trained.

As someone who has gone through courses on defensive hand to hand fighting along with holds and locks, offensive and defensive baton and knife use, offensive and defensive handgun use, long arm and shotgun use, anti-terrorist courses, use of force training, I don't consider myself "combat trained".

But some people would call you combat trained, since we haven't agreed what make combat trained it hard to say. first we have to agree what combat trained means.

Any suggestions?

[eliakon]

Nope.
Remember that the context of the original conversation that this was spun off of: keeping calm and avoiding panic during mega-damage firefights.
If the CS puts you through basic training, then you're going to be a lot more prepared for that kind of thing than if you took a class at the Y, and you plink bottles in your spare time. Even though both characters might qualify for HTH Basic and WP Energy Pistol (or whatever), that doesn't mean that they're going to be on equal mental footing when it comes to a firefight.
Rifts is a role-playing game, after all. It's not all about straight mechanics in a vacuum.

And here is where we can start to draw a line on "combat trained" or not

There is a neat bit of flavor text that talks about skills based on what you bought them with
If your skills are OCC skills then they are by definition professional
If your skills are OCCr skills they are probably professional (as they are part of your job)
If your skills are secondary skills though, they are your personal hobbies and interests.

I know that people tend to not do it that way but that is how the rules are set up...
Thus we get
1) If your skills are OCC skills, then your professionally trained in those skills as part of the definition your job.
2) If your skills are OCCr then your skills, while not core to your job are professionally relevant enough to you that you use them regularly in the course of your job that you see them as being part of that job.
3) If all your skills are bought as secondary skills, then they are ones that you are interested in personally and count as hobbies... but are not part of your job.

1) OCC combat skills = always combat trained
2) OCCr combat skills = May or may not be combat trained, it will depend on the individual. But they can easily be such because they, by definition, have combat skills provided as part of their regular day-to-day activity.
3) Secondary combat skills = probably not combat trained unless there is some sort of extenuating circumstance, such as levels worth of experience in combat, attending formal military training (such as the school in Mercenary Adventures) or the like.

[Shark_Force]

OCC related skills are not provided because they're part of your day to day activity just for being a member of that OCC though. they're provided because there is a lot of variation between different members of the same class - not every CS grunt is given training in robot combat, but some are, based on their personal aptitudes and the roles they might be expected to fill (for example, as a gunner in a 3-person robot). not every CS grunt will be trained in first aid, but some are, based on their personal aptitudes and the roles they might be expected to fill (like providing protection for a full medic that goes from squad to squad, or just being the designated squad member to stabilize the wounded until that full medic arrives). not every CS grunt is a chef, but some are, based on their aptitudes etc etc.

basically, we have OCC related skills so that we don't have 100 different MOS options for every single OCC. we don't need a special MOS for the CS grunt that works in the kitchens, is the designated person to treat burns and such within the kitchen staff, and also has the code for the door that leads to the small armoury they keep in the mess hall in case of extreme emergencies where a SAMAS is stored. or for the grunt who keeps people's spirits up by reinforcing government propaganda, singing patriotic songs, all while acting as a cameraman for creating future propaganda videos with the cybernetic eye implants he's received.

certainly, the CS most likely has those kinds of distinctions. heck, the US military today has a ton of distinctions like that from what i understand... i wouldn't be surprised if there was someone in the military who prepares food who immediately grumbled when i called them kitchen staff instead of a proper military term (sorry, i don't have the military etiquette skill - but a CS grunt would ).

OCC related skills cannot *possibly* be all the skills that every member of the class will for sure be exposed to on a regular basis. you might get as many as 8 or 9 skills to choose, and have 80 or 90 to choose from. it should be immediately obvious that not every single CS grunt is a skilled professional chef, even though that skill is available to the CS grunt OCC. why is it so hard to understand that this is also true for combat skills in non-combat classes?

the ley line walker OCC is broad enough to represent ley line walkers that are part of the local militia as well as ley line walkers that hide out in the 'burbs of a CS city as well as the ley line walkers that are part of a guild and wouldn't dream of using a gun themselves as well as the ley line walkers that are adventurers and the ley line walkers that own a shop and the ley line walkers that are hermits living in the wilderness and the ley line walkers who aren't part of the guild and don't get to enjoy those benefits as well as the ley line walker who is an apprentice and does all kinds of menial tasks as well as the ley line walker who lives in the elven quarter of the city and so on and so forth. there are many different skill sets that ley line walkers could learn at a professional level as a result of their specific needs and environment which are not core to the general profession of being a ley line walker, but which *are* core to their specific role as a ley line walker.

rather than make a different OCC for each specific environment and type of each OCC, each with different OCC skills, and still failing to cover every possibility, palladium simply says "here, these OCC skills are absolutely core to the class. you cannot be a <class name> without these skills. these OCC related skills are to be used to buy the skills that your particular <class name> would know because of the specific duties your specific <class name> has and specific scenarios your <class name> will find themselves in based on what specifically you imagine your character to be. and these secondary skills are to represent your interests and hobbies".

this notion of OCC related skills as something that every or most members of a given class will have is silly. you simply don't have anywhere near enough skills for that to be remotely true. for some ley line walkers (like basically every adventuring ley line walker in existence), some degree of combat training will indeed be a core part of their skill set as an adventuring ley line walker. but since there isn't an adventuring ley line walker OCC, they just grab the ley line walker OCC and decide that as an adventurer, they know hand to hand basic and can use a laser rifle and a submachine gun and drive hovercycles or a big boss ATV or whatever.

(but the really funny thing is that since HtH and WP skills offer no meaningful benefits for being OCC related skills, i bet most of those adventuring ley line walkers have those skills as secondary... meaning, that's their hobby, not part of their profession )

[Killer Cyborg]

Nope.
Remember that the context of the original conversation that this was spun off of: keeping calm and avoiding panic during mega-damage firefights.
If the CS puts you through basic training, then you're going to be a lot more prepared for that kind of thing than if you took a class at the Y, and you plink bottles in your spare time. Even though both characters might qualify for HTH Basic and WP Energy Pistol (or whatever), that doesn't mean that they're going to be on equal mental footing when it comes to a firefight.
Rifts is a role-playing game, after all. It's not all about straight mechanics in a vacuum.

And here is where we can start to draw a line on "combat trained" or not

There is a neat bit of flavor text that talks about skills based on what you bought them with
If your skills are OCC skills then they are by definition professional

Nah. They're occupational.

If your skills are OCCr skills they are probably professional (as they are part of your job)

We have an official standard for that, actually. With Domestic skills and (some?) Technical skills, you can take the skill twice in order for it to actually be Professional quality.
Vagabonds start with Cook (a Domestic skill) as an OCC skill... but NOT at professional quality.
Occupational skills are not necessarily professional level.

Even if they were, being professionally trained in self-defense at the Y isn't across-the-board equal to being professionally trained as a soldier.

[Saitou Hajime]

Hand to Hand: Basic is described as an elementary form of combat training. RUE Page 347

So while not extensive it is still combat training, meaning if you have it you should be considered combat trained.

Right.

Like this girl.

Would someone please define combat trained.

As someone who has gone through courses on defensive hand to hand fighting along with holds and locks, offensive and defensive baton and knife use, offensive and defensive handgun use, long arm and shotgun use, anti-terrorist courses, use of force training, I don't consider myself "combat trained".

But some people would call you combat trained, since we haven't agreed what make combat trained it hard to say. first we have to agree what combat trained means.

Any suggestions?

Well we could call the Line Hand to Hand: Expert some agreement on number of WPs [between two and four], which would give us a good base line. Sure many man-at-arms start with Basic but only the lazy and support people aren't going to upgrade. What ever standard we agree on will be arbtrary in the end. In real life, saying who is Combat trained is perspective driven, I mean we expect professional soldiers to be Combat trained, but it possible to Combat train outside of that, further if we want to talk hand to hand, a professional police officer is likely better trained than the average soldier. Further civilians can be combat trained.

I think what the really difference is is either Tractical understanding [Place in the Unit] and/or combat experence in a group.

[eliakon]

OCC related skills are not provided because they're part of your day to day activity just for being a member of that OCC though. they're provided because there is a lot of variation between different members of the same class - not every CS grunt is given training in robot combat, but some are, based on their personal aptitudes and the roles they might be expected to fill (for example, as a gunner in a 3-person robot). not every CS grunt will be trained in first aid, but some are, based on their personal aptitudes and the roles they might be expected to fill (like providing protection for a full medic that goes from squad to squad, or just being the designated squad member to stabilize the wounded until that full medic arrives). not every CS grunt is a chef, but some are, based on their aptitudes etc etc.

basically, we have OCC related skills so that we don't have 100 different MOS options for every single OCC. we don't need a special MOS for the CS grunt that works in the kitchens, is the designated person to treat burns and such within the kitchen staff, and also has the code for the door that leads to the small armoury they keep in the mess hall in case of extreme emergencies where a SAMAS is stored. or for the grunt who keeps people's spirits up by reinforcing government propaganda, singing patriotic songs, all while acting as a cameraman for creating future propaganda videos with the cybernetic eye implants he's received.

certainly, the CS most likely has those kinds of distinctions. heck, the US military today has a ton of distinctions like that from what i understand... i wouldn't be surprised if there was someone in the military who prepares food who immediately grumbled when i called them kitchen staff instead of a proper military term (sorry, i don't have the military etiquette skill - but a CS grunt would ).

OCC related skills cannot *possibly* be all the skills that every member of the class will for sure be exposed to on a regular basis. you might get as many as 8 or 9 skills to choose, and have 80 or 90 to choose from. it should be immediately obvious that not every single CS grunt is a skilled professional chef, even though that skill is available to the CS grunt OCC. why is it so hard to understand that this is also true for combat skills in non-combat classes?

the ley line walker OCC is broad enough to represent ley line walkers that are part of the local militia as well as ley line walkers that hide out in the 'burbs of a CS city as well as the ley line walkers that are part of a guild and wouldn't dream of using a gun themselves as well as the ley line walkers that are adventurers and the ley line walkers that own a shop and the ley line walkers that are hermits living in the wilderness and the ley line walkers who aren't part of the guild and don't get to enjoy those benefits as well as the ley line walker who is an apprentice and does all kinds of menial tasks as well as the ley line walker who lives in the elven quarter of the city and so on and so forth. there are many different skill sets that ley line walkers could learn at a professional level as a result of their specific needs and environment which are not core to the general profession of being a ley line walker, but which *are* core to their specific role as a ley line walker.

rather than make a different OCC for each specific environment and type of each OCC, each with different OCC skills, and still failing to cover every possibility, palladium simply says "here, these OCC skills are absolutely core to the class. you cannot be a <class name> without these skills. these OCC related skills are to be used to buy the skills that your particular <class name> would know because of the specific duties your specific <class name> has and specific scenarios your <class name> will find themselves in based on what specifically you imagine your character to be. and these secondary skills are to represent your interests and hobbies".

this notion of OCC related skills as something that every or most members of a given class will have is silly. you simply don't have anywhere near enough skills for that to be remotely true. for some ley line walkers (like basically every adventuring ley line walker in existence), some degree of combat training will indeed be a core part of their skill set as an adventuring ley line walker. but since there isn't an adventuring ley line walker OCC, they just grab the ley line walker OCC and decide that as an adventurer, they know hand to hand basic and can use a laser rifle and a submachine gun and drive hovercycles or a big boss ATV or whatever.

(but the really funny thing is that since HtH and WP skills offer no meaningful benefits for being OCC related skills, i bet most of those adventuring ley line walkers have those skills as secondary... meaning, that's their hobby, not part of their profession )

I am trying to point out that having OCCr skills lets you figure out what their 'job' IS
If your a mage attached to a military unit then you are probably going to spend some OCCr skills to get hand 2 hand, and some WPs...
you know... the "My job has me doing military stuff"
If you don't do that, if you take your skill as JUST secondary skills then your saying that you didn't learn any combat related materials at your job and that it is only a hobby.
And I would say a hobby is NOT 'combat training'

[eliakon]

Nope.
Remember that the context of the original conversation that this was spun off of: keeping calm and avoiding panic during mega-damage firefights.
If the CS puts you through basic training, then you're going to be a lot more prepared for that kind of thing than if you took a class at the Y, and you plink bottles in your spare time. Even though both characters might qualify for HTH Basic and WP Energy Pistol (or whatever), that doesn't mean that they're going to be on equal mental footing when it comes to a firefight.
Rifts is a role-playing game, after all. It's not all about straight mechanics in a vacuum.

And here is where we can start to draw a line on "combat trained" or not

There is a neat bit of flavor text that talks about skills based on what you bought them with
If your skills are OCC skills then they are by definition professional

Nah. They're occupational.

If your skills are OCCr skills they are probably professional (as they are part of your job)

We have an official standard for that, actually. With Domestic skills and (some?) Technical skills, you can take the skill twice in order for it to actually be Professional quality.
Vagabonds start with Cook (a Domestic skill) as an OCC skill... but NOT at professional quality.
Occupational skills are not necessarily professional level.

Even if they were, being professionally trained in self-defense at the Y isn't across-the-board equal to being professionally trained as a soldier.

Not according to RUE
Page 300
"For example if a character took the Art skill as an O.C.C. Related Skill, he would have the ability of a professional artist. If that same character takes Art as a Secondary Skill, however, his ability is that of a talented amateur. Even if a Secondary Skill artist had a higher chance of success than an O.C.C. Related Skill artist, the O.C.C. based artist's work always looks better. That is the essential difference between O.C.C. Related Skills and Secondary Skills."

So according to the rules OCC and OCCr skills ARE automatically professional grade.
You can ALSO take certain skills twice to get professional quality outside of your OCC.
And of course the level of quality will be better if you spend, for example, and OCCr skill to boost an OCC skill.

So the official rules are that OCC and OCCr skills are professional quality.
I would say that being Professional Quality in a combat skill is a good definition of "combat trained"

[Killer Cyborg]

Nope.
Remember that the context of the original conversation that this was spun off of: keeping calm and avoiding panic during mega-damage firefights.
If the CS puts you through basic training, then you're going to be a lot more prepared for that kind of thing than if you took a class at the Y, and you plink bottles in your spare time. Even though both characters might qualify for HTH Basic and WP Energy Pistol (or whatever), that doesn't mean that they're going to be on equal mental footing when it comes to a firefight.
Rifts is a role-playing game, after all. It's not all about straight mechanics in a vacuum.

And here is where we can start to draw a line on "combat trained" or not

There is a neat bit of flavor text that talks about skills based on what you bought them with
If your skills are OCC skills then they are by definition professional

Nah. They're occupational.

If your skills are OCCr skills they are probably professional (as they are part of your job)

We have an official standard for that, actually. With Domestic skills and (some?) Technical skills, you can take the skill twice in order for it to actually be Professional quality.
Vagabonds start with Cook (a Domestic skill) as an OCC skill... but NOT at professional quality.
Occupational skills are not necessarily professional level.

Even if they were, being professionally trained in self-defense at the Y isn't across-the-board equal to being professionally trained as a soldier.

Not according to RUE
Page 300
"For example if a character took the Art skill as an O.C.C. Related Skill, he would have the ability of a professional artist. If that same character takes Art as a Secondary Skill, however, his ability is that of a talented amateur. Even if a Secondary Skill artist had a higher chance of success than an O.C.C. Related Skill artist, the O.C.C. based artist's work always looks better. That is the essential difference between O.C.C. Related Skills and Secondary Skills."

So according to the rules OCC and OCCr skills ARE automatically professional grade.
You can ALSO take certain skills twice to get professional quality outside of your OCC.
And of course the level of quality will be better if you spend, for example, and OCCr skill to boost an OCC skill.

Hm.
Fair argument.

So the official rules are that OCC and OCCr skills are professional quality.

I would say that being Professional Quality in a combat skill is a good definition of "combat trained"

I'd say that it depends lot on what the combat skill is, and what the context of the conversation is.
HTH Basic runs a pretty wide spectrum. Being Professional quality at YMCA Self Defense isn't necessarily as good as being trained in HTH combat through the military.
Even if it's as good--it's not the same. Somebody tries to mug him with a switchblade or their fists, Mr. Pro Y should be cool. His "combat training" should cover that.

He ends up in the middle of a MD firefight?
Nah.

[eliakon]

So the official rules are that OCC and OCCr skills are professional quality.

I would say that being Professional Quality in a combat skill is a good definition of "combat trained"

I'd say that it depends lot on what the combat skill is, and what the context of the conversation is.
HTH Basic runs a pretty wide spectrum. Being Professional quality at YMCA Self Defense isn't necessarily as good as being trained in HTH combat through the military.
Even if it's as good--it's not the same. Somebody tries to mug him with a switchblade or their fists, Mr. Pro Y should be cool. His "combat training" should cover that.

He ends up in the middle of a MD firefight?
Nah.

I can see that.
I would say that the "Pro-YMCA" guy is 'secondary skill with several levels in it'
They might be a simple instructor... so OCCr...
...which is why I said that OCCr skills may or may not qualify based on the specifics of the person in question.

OCC skills should ALWAYS qualify since the implication there is that their profession revolves around their combat abilities

OCCr skills may or may not qualify depending on the specific character. A civilian instructor or professional athlete may have OCCr combat skills but not be truly 'combat ready' it is true. But OCCr skills are ALSO how you would build a mage who is a member of an elite military team and trains regularly for their constant combat missions.

Secondary Skills should not qualify you unless you have something else to justify it since they are just a cursory hobby study of combat and imply an academic remove that is not compatible with being a 'real combatant'

<edit>
It is probably not a perfect system... but it seems to be both in line with the rules, and the best system available at the time.
If someone has a better idea I would be happy to hear it (I really am not to enthusiastic about the 'it depends' in the OCCr but I can't see a better solution there)

[Blue_Lion]

Personally, I always took HTH Basic as applying to poorly trained military/police, untrained but experienced brawlers, self-defense classes and low-end sport martial arts classes, and to people who's training WOULD have been expert if they'd been good at it, but they're not.

This doesn't wash.

If this is true, then the most modern and advanced armies on the planet dont train their soldiers any better than someone who is bad at sports...

I'm just not buying that.

Merc Soldiers - Basic
CS Grunts - Basic
CS Tech Officers - Basic
CS Rangers - Basic
CS RPA Flyboys - Basic
Glitter Boy Pilots(!) - Basic
Knights/Royal Knights (England) - Basic
NGR Infantry - Basic
Cyborg Soldiers - Basic
New Navy - Basic (Marines get Expert)

Those are the majority of the "professional soldier" type OCCs we have that aren't more well trained for some reason (Elite RPA, Cyborg Shock Troops, Juicers, etc) - I.E. the guys that make up most of your fighting force...

And they all get Basic.

The entire idea that the biggest technological powers of Rifts Earth only train their soldiers slightly better than some schlub at the local gym is a farce on its face.

Truth is, all we have to go on is game mechanics.

Game-mechanically, an OCC that gets H2H Basic is no different from any other. Any OCC that gets combat training of some kind and some W.P.s is just as combat trained as any other.

Standing by initial statement: Mages who *aren't* combat trained are the exception, not the rule.

most mages don't get starting WPs, they have to spend optional resources on them. in an MDC world, if you don't know how to use an MD-inflicting weapon, you are not combat trained.

having one and only one skill that relates to combat at all is woefully underprepared. no weapon systems, no WPs, no ability to pilot military vehicles, no skills that indicate an understanding of strategy, tactics, or how to fight as a group, no built-in bonuses to combat maneuvers like strike, parry, or dodge, no skills useful for locating an enemy or avoiding ambushes...

if you're sending someone into combat like that in the modern world, you're sending them woefully unprepared for combat. knowing how to throw a basic punch or kick without breaking your toes is *not* combat-trained for anyone who actually expects to get into combat on even a semi-regular basis. on rifts earth, where you can be literally incapable of harming someone without the right tools, a lack of WPs is a particularly absurd notion for someone who is supposed to be "combat-trained".

all those other OCCs you mentioned start with multiple WPs, often default skills or good access to skills to operate heavy military hardware and sensors, physical skills that boost their overall physical attributes (or just having straight up attribute boosts) as well as typically superior access to such skills, sometimes bonuses to specific combat maneuvers like strike, parry, or dodge, good access to military and espionage skills... and undefinables like an understanding of how to fight as a unit that isn't really quantified in rifts.

Can mages not inflict MD damage without a weapon?

[RockJock]

This isn't anything resembling a book rule, but we have always gone on the basis that if the mage learned a HtH and a WP or two as an OCC/OCCr skills as part of an organized militia or even in a more organized family setting(similar to a Glitter Boy, or Psi-Stalker) they are combat trained. If they learn the skills as Secondary skills they are competent, but they were not formally trained. No real difference game wise, but more game flavor.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Tossing in my two cents:

I don't think the problem is even a matter of defining what "combat trained" is. I think a lot of the dispute is over defining what combat itself is. let me explain.

the differences between hand to hand skills comes up, how someone taking basic hand to hand cources in real life dosn't feel "combat trained", how boxing or a WP doesn't, how there's a difference between soldigers trained for actual combat MOS's and the air force desk jockies ect.

So I'll ask: how do we mean combat? Do we mean ANY form of conflict, or do we mean "This is war, Sonny"

It's an important distinction to make. if one defines Combat as "Any slap fight or barroom brawl where no one's expecting to get more than brused", then yea, HtH basic makes you "combat trained" sinse "Combat" here means "Any kind of fighting"

if you take "Combat trained" to mean "Fight as part of an organized unit" then HtH basic alone won't suffice. you'll also need a Weapon Proficency, specifically whatever W.P. your particular unit specalizes in. it could be hunting rifles for a group of village hunters-turned-militia, it could be a Spear and Shield if your fighting as part of an ancient Phalanx, or W.P. Energy Rifle if your fighting as part of a more high tech town militia force.

That said, this is still a lower bar. There's a reason that the US changed things so that the National Guard has to generally keep the same standards as reserve army (in general, not exactly), it was known even at the founding that untrained Militia performed poorly compared to professional Regulars--after all, Washington spent more time Running from the british army than he did actually fighting them--but if you had ENOUGH of them, and some other strategic or tactical advantage, they could still help you win. and in Rifts where it is often such trained Militia--brawlers with Guns--fighting against bandits--also brawlers with guns--or random supernatural predators, it's generally a more even fight and they're useful again.

So if you have a Hand to hand and W.P. Energy Rifle, you are qualified to serve in a city militia. more organized ones might even make you take Forced march or military equittique as secondary skills! you might even be called on to participate in a larger scale battle--but no commander could expect you to follow a complex stratagy or co-ordinate a multi-pronged tactic. you'd more or less be limited to being slapped behind cover and told to shoot any enemy that comes into range, and wait to be told if you're needed somewhere else or it's time to charge. You can serve in Combat--but are you combat trained, or just good enough to be a danger to the enemy as well as your own side?

Or do you define combat trained as: "Have a varaiety of weapon choices and can use them all well, are versed in multiple drills for offense and defense, can work with a squad and larger units in persuit of a varaity of arbitrary and sometimes suicidal goals, and have sufficent understanding of the complexities to adapt and improvise new solutions when given plans meet Murphey?"

if that's the case, pretty much only the various Military OCC's and a few of the higher teir mercenary ones qualify. I don't even think all Men of Arms like Crazies or Assassins count here. They are exceptionally dangerous Special Units and Force Multipliers--but not regular combat soldigers. you don't stick a crazy into a trench and count on him to hold ground, you shoot him at the enemy out of a canon and count on his unpredictability and superhuman reflexes to cause havoc and disrupt the enemy formation, giving them some kind of weakness you can exploit.

That's the catch. do you define combat as any old fight, or do you define combat as organized warfare?

The answer to this question depends on how you define it.

Incidentally: I now want there to be a city state that littearlly Catapults dozens of crazies at any attacker over their walls

[drewkitty ~..~]

I think it stems from the (highly arbitrary) idea that you have
Adventurers
Men-at-Arm
Men of magic
Psychics

as classes
Thus by defining anyone who is not a soldier class as not being combat trained you create a tautology that no one is allowed to be a combat trained unless they are a Men-at-Arms.
Which is just absurd because it specifically is provably false as there are all sorts of purely military classes that exist that are not classed as MaA.
Battle Magus, and Temporal Warriors leap to mind off hand, but a special notation goes out to the Demon Queller from Rifts Japan, who is raised practically from birth for the purpose of battling demons, trained in advanced martial arts... and not a MaA but an 'adventurer'... guess that means they are not 'trained for combat' or something.

Those are the classifications of types of classes the published changing class rules use to define what chars have a exp. penalty when changing classes across non-similar types of classes.
Yes, even though psychics are not specifically state because in the setting they were published in PCCs can't change their class, they are a type of char class.

[Mack]

A few random thoughts I'll toss in.

-- Combat Mages get Basic. One of the few dedicated "I'm not kidding, Combat is even in my OCC name" classes only gets Basic. What does that say about other mages who inherently have less training?

-- Jumping to RUE p347-8, we see that Expert is "taught to police, officers, soldiers, body-guards, thieves, and anybody who will be expected to live by violence." So anyone with less than Expert (either None or Basic) is a character expected to be at a lower proficiency than those examples. This gets back to the discussion of "what is the definition of combat trained?" Because one could make the argument that anyone with less than Expert isn't really combat ready (which is an amusing implication for the Combat Mage).

-- But here's my real thought on the matter: Rating a mage's combat ability by his HtoH is a red herring. I don't care if a mage gets a kick attack at level 1 instead of level 3. A warrior mage isn't paid to perform kick attacks. He's paid to keep his head during a fight and cast the right spell at the right time. And I can't think of any way to easily quantify that.

[Kagashi]

Trump is combat trained.

Warning: Let's not go there. - Mack

[42dragon]

Incidentally: I now want there to be a city state that littearlly Catapults dozens of crazies at any attacker over their walls

Best defense force idea ever!!!!!

[J_cobbers]

Incidentally: I now want there to be a city state that littearlly Catapults dozens of crazies at any attacker over their walls

Best defense force idea ever!!!!!

Introducing the Northern GUN Klinger SEC-8 "Crazy Cannon"
Named for a character on a popular 20th Century Television show, the SEC-8 Crazy Cannon is a unique tool of war designed to rapidly deploy enhanced humans into enemy formations in a highly disruptive fashion as a force projection measure. The SEC-8 utilizes magnetic acceleration technology and a human sized armored gliding projectile which is padded to prevent injury during launch. The projectile shields the crazy being launched from enemy fire and cushions the landing with exterior air bags that deploy in a 5 ft radius around the glider just before impact. Normal human sized targets hit by airbags are knocked back 10 feet and loose their next melee action, adding to the chaos of having a Crazy leap into a pack off troops from seemingly out of nowhere. The glider capsule then bursts the airbags and automatically launches the crazy out for rapid deployment (+1 to his next initiative).


Range: 500 meters
Rate of Fire: 1 per melee (takes time to reset with a new glider and rider)
MD: None if air bags deploy as designed, but may knock back targets and cause them to loose their next attack. If airbags are disabled the Crazy is padded inside the glider capusle and only takes 2d4 SDC from the rough landing, but anything hit will take 3d6 MD from the impact, be knocked prone and also loose an attack.

That sound about like the kinda thing you guys are thinking of?