Mages Aren't Trained for Combat

[Axelmania]

FoM 128 says prpbably LLW is most popular, TW is 2nd, Warlocks 3rd, Mystics 4th

Necromancy is estimated8-10% overall magic so the previous 4 should all be higher than that.

Witches estimated under 4% and Temporal mages under 2% for comparison.

If we could find a % for one of the big four we could know that it is higher for those above it.

I don't recall any been inning with hand to hand. I think Ultimate gave basic to shifter.

I am inclined to guess shifting is more popular than necromancy but maybe I shouldn't?

[ShadowLogan]

I don't recall any been inning with hand to hand. I think Ultimate gave basic to shifter.

RMB none of the 4 starting mage classes hand to hand as a starting OCC skill, they all had to purchase it with related (not secondary) skills. POST-RMB SB/DB/WB do not seem to follow this form (ex WB5's Gypsy Wizard Thief, WB6's Voodo Priest & Biomancer, WB7 has the Sea Inquisitor & Ocean Wizard & Koral Shaper mages, WB8's TW Ninja & Demon Queller ((Maybe not a true Mage class for the DQ), etc) that doesn't mean non-hth's don't exist in these books (they do, but they seem to be in the minority).

With the revisions to RUE, both the Ley Line Walker and Shifter received HTH: Basic as a starting skill.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am sorry you can NOT claim that someone is BOTH 'professional quality' and 'the equivalent of martial arts classes from the YMCA')

Sure you can.
Why not?

[dreicunan]

I am sorry you can NOT claim that someone is BOTH 'professional quality' and 'the equivalent of martial arts classes from the YMCA')

Sure you can.
Why not?

I concur; it is entirely possible that the instructor for the martial arts classes at the YMCA is indeed imparting "professional quality" instruction to one's students.

This whole "professional quality" thing seems rather misapplied here, anyways. It was a distinction brought about for domestic and some technical skills. I don't know that it can be extrapolated to hand-to-hand or physical skills. It isn't even all that good a distinction for the domestic or technical skills. After all, the author of the Twilight series is a professional author (she gets paid to write), and I've read plenty of amateur fan-fiction that beats out her works (seriously, they made the dictionary definition of purple prose go "Wow, you're just being silly now"). Need we mention the twilight fan-fiction that got turned into the 50 shades series and also makes that author a "professional author."

[eliakon]

I am sorry you can NOT claim that someone is BOTH 'professional quality' and 'the equivalent of martial arts classes from the YMCA')

Sure you can.
Why not?

I concur; it is entirely possible that the instructor for the martial arts classes at the YMCA is indeed imparting "professional quality" instruction to one's students.

This whole "professional quality" thing seems rather misapplied here, anyways. It was a distinction brought about for domestic and some technical skills. I don't know that it can be extrapolated to hand-to-hand or physical skills. It isn't even all that good a distinction for the domestic or technical skills. After all, the author of the Twilight series is a professional author (she gets paid to write), and I've read plenty of amateur fan-fiction that beats out her works (seriously, they made the dictionary definition of purple prose go "Wow, you're just being silly now"). Need we mention the twilight fan-fiction that got turned into the 50 shades series and also makes that author a "professional author."

Because
1) RUE extrapolated it to ALL skills
And
2) Because the book says that it is Professional QUALITY. So your argument that bad quality can be professional quality just because someone pays for it is false. You are trying to conflate two different meanings of 'professional' to prove your argument.

And of course because it makes the argument that mages aren't trained for combat circular by stating that they are not trained for combat because they are not trained for combat.
When the proof that they are not trained for combat is the assertian that they are not trained there is a problem
Now ONCE AGAIN if people can come up with a definition of 'trained for combat' THAT AGREES WITH THE CANON then fine, use that

1) But trying to assert that someone with professional quality level skill in a subject is not actually trained in that subject seems absurd on the face.

2)Then there is the absurdity of trying to claim that an OCCr skill, which is defined as being INHERENTLY PART OF THAT PERSONS JOB TRAINING was not really part of their training.

Thus we have the CANON stating that there are a large number of mages that have professional quality combat training as part of their core training (OCC skill) or automatically occur with the development of the persons occupation (OCCr)
That does not sound like 98% of mages are really just hobbyist who train at the YMCA

[Ed]

I am sorry you can NOT claim that someone is BOTH 'professional quality' and 'the equivalent of martial arts classes from the YMCA')

Sure you can.
Why not?

Indeed. Professional quality combat training can only be obtained by joining the military. On the other hand, professional quality training in sport fighting can be relatively easy to find.

[Ed]

Because
1) RUE extrapolated it to ALL skills
And
2) Because the book says that it is Professional QUALITY. So your argument that bad quality can be professional quality just because someone pays for it is false. You are trying to conflate two different meanings of 'professional' to prove your argument.

Your mistake is that you continue to equate being trained to sport fight is the same as being trained for combat.

And of course because it makes the argument that mages aren't trained for combat circular by stating that they are not trained for combat because they are not trained for combat.
When the proof that they are not trained for combat is the assertian that they are not trained there is a problem
Now ONCE AGAIN if people can come up with a definition of 'trained for combat' THAT AGREES WITH THE CANON then fine, use that

Why not use the rule from page 11 of the Book of Magic.

1) But trying to assert that someone with professional quality level skill in a subject is not actually trained in that subject seems absurd on the face.

2)Then there is the absurdity of trying to claim that an OCCr skill, which is defined as being INHERENTLY PART OF THAT PERSONS JOB TRAINING was not really part of their training.

Thus we have the CANON stating that there are a large number of mages that have professional quality combat training as part of their core training (OCC skill) or automatically occur with the development of the persons occupation (OCCr)
That does not sound like 98% of mages are really just hobbyist who train at the YMCA

There are far less than 98% of mages whose only combatives training is the equivalent of what they could obtain from the YMCA.
Per FoM page 128 less than 2% of all NA mages could possibly be combat trained.

[dreicunan]

I am sorry you can NOT claim that someone is BOTH 'professional quality' and 'the equivalent of martial arts classes from the YMCA')

Sure you can.
Why not?

I concur; it is entirely possible that the instructor for the martial arts classes at the YMCA is indeed imparting "professional quality" instruction to one's students.

This whole "professional quality" thing seems rather misapplied here, anyways. It was a distinction brought about for domestic and some technical skills. I don't know that it can be extrapolated to hand-to-hand or physical skills. It isn't even all that good a distinction for the domestic or technical skills. After all, the author of the Twilight series is a professional author (she gets paid to write), and I've read plenty of amateur fan-fiction that beats out her works (seriously, they made the dictionary definition of purple prose go "Wow, you're just being silly now"). Need we mention the twilight fan-fiction that got turned into the 50 shades series and also makes that author a "professional author."

Because
1) RUE extrapolated it to ALL skills
And
2) Because the book says that it is Professional QUALITY. So your argument that bad quality can be professional quality just because someone pays for it is false. You are trying to conflate two different meanings of 'professional' to prove your argument.

And of course because it makes the argument that mages aren't trained for combat circular by stating that they are not trained for combat because they are not trained for combat.
When the proof that they are not trained for combat is the assertian that they are not trained there is a problem
Now ONCE AGAIN if people can come up with a definition of 'trained for combat' THAT AGREES WITH THE CANON then fine, use that

1) But trying to assert that someone with professional quality level skill in a subject is not actually trained in that subject seems absurd on the face.

2)Then there is the absurdity of trying to claim that an OCCr skill, which is defined as being INHERENTLY PART OF THAT PERSONS JOB TRAINING was not really part of their training.

Thus we have the CANON stating that there are a large number of mages that have professional quality combat training as part of their core training (OCC skill) or automatically occur with the development of the persons occupation (OCCr)
That does not sound like 98% of mages are really just hobbyist who train at the YMCA

Yeah, you can say that RUE extrapolated it to all skills, but it did so in such a way that there is no functional difference between taking most skills as an OCC, OCC related, or secondary skill. HtH basic and the WPs available as secondary skills give the exact same bonuses. A mystic who takes wp energy rifle as a secondary skill and scores a called shot to your unprotected head with a Wilks rifle will turn it into so much mist just as well as the guy who got it as an OCC skill.

Heck, the example for the secondary skill being inferior is art. Because we all know that talented amateurs with no formal training never have outdone their professionally trained counterparts in the history of art.

So yeah, run with the canon rule if you want, but it is a moronic rule whose logic doesn't stand the slightest amount of scrutiny.

[eliakon]

Because
1) RUE extrapolated it to ALL skills
And
2) Because the book says that it is Professional QUALITY. So your argument that bad quality can be professional quality just because someone pays for it is false. You are trying to conflate two different meanings of 'professional' to prove your argument.

Your mistake is that you continue to equate being trained to sport fight is the same as being trained for combat.

Your mistake is that you continue to claim that mages are trained to sport fight. Which they are not in Palladium. That is the Sports skill. Hand to Hand and Weapon Proficiencies are defined as "Combat training" thus they are combat training.
They are not sports... now you can make a house rule to rewrite the system. Or you can find a citation in a book that supports your claim.
But simply asserting that mages are not actually receiving the skill that they show on their character sheet/Class write up and instead are really getting a different skill... well that is what we call "nope"

And of course because it makes the argument that mages aren't trained for combat circular by stating that they are not trained for combat because they are not trained for combat.
When the proof that they are not trained for combat is the assertian that they are not trained there is a problem
Now ONCE AGAIN if people can come up with a definition of 'trained for combat' THAT AGREES WITH THE CANON then fine, use that

Why not use the rule from page 11 of the Book of Magic.

1) that is not a 'rule' it is some advise in an essay
2) it doesn't rule out people being in more than one category
3) once again it is not a game rule/mechanic (Unlike say... the definitions of skills)

1) But trying to assert that someone with professional quality level skill in a subject is not actually trained in that subject seems absurd on the face.

2)Then there is the absurdity of trying to claim that an OCCr skill, which is defined as being INHERENTLY PART OF THAT PERSONS JOB TRAINING was not really part of their training.

Thus we have the CANON stating that there are a large number of mages that have professional quality combat training as part of their core training (OCC skill) or automatically occur with the development of the persons occupation (OCCr)
That does not sound like 98% of mages are really just hobbyist who train at the YMCA

There are far less than 98% of mages whose only combatives training is the equivalent of what they could obtain from the YMCA.
Per FoM page 128 less than 2% of all NA mages could possibly be combat trained.

I am fascinated as to what is on this page that you think proves that 98% of mages are not combat trained
Especially since that would mean that 98% of mages do not really have their OCC (Since that would mean that only 2% of all mages can have an OCC...which I find... dubious at best)
Or let me spell this out
Premise #1 if you have your OCC then you have all of your OCC, OCCr, and Secondary skills
Premise #2 if you have Hand to Hand combat skill by definition you have combat training under the rules
Premise #3 if your H2H skill is OCC or OCCr then that combat training is of professional quality
Premise #4 the vast majority of magic classes have H2H as either a OCC skill, or available as a OCCr skill
Conclusion: That the vast majority of magic users in Palladium are, in fact trained in combat.

[eliakon]

I am sorry you can NOT claim that someone is BOTH 'professional quality' and 'the equivalent of martial arts classes from the YMCA')

Sure you can.
Why not?

I concur; it is entirely possible that the instructor for the martial arts classes at the YMCA is indeed imparting "professional quality" instruction to one's students.

This whole "professional quality" thing seems rather misapplied here, anyways. It was a distinction brought about for domestic and some technical skills. I don't know that it can be extrapolated to hand-to-hand or physical skills. It isn't even all that good a distinction for the domestic or technical skills. After all, the author of the Twilight series is a professional author (she gets paid to write), and I've read plenty of amateur fan-fiction that beats out her works (seriously, they made the dictionary definition of purple prose go "Wow, you're just being silly now"). Need we mention the twilight fan-fiction that got turned into the 50 shades series and also makes that author a "professional author."

Because
1) RUE extrapolated it to ALL skills
And
2) Because the book says that it is Professional QUALITY. So your argument that bad quality can be professional quality just because someone pays for it is false. You are trying to conflate two different meanings of 'professional' to prove your argument.

And of course because it makes the argument that mages aren't trained for combat circular by stating that they are not trained for combat because they are not trained for combat.
When the proof that they are not trained for combat is the assertian that they are not trained there is a problem
Now ONCE AGAIN if people can come up with a definition of 'trained for combat' THAT AGREES WITH THE CANON then fine, use that

1) But trying to assert that someone with professional quality level skill in a subject is not actually trained in that subject seems absurd on the face.

2)Then there is the absurdity of trying to claim that an OCCr skill, which is defined as being INHERENTLY PART OF THAT PERSONS JOB TRAINING was not really part of their training.

Thus we have the CANON stating that there are a large number of mages that have professional quality combat training as part of their core training (OCC skill) or automatically occur with the development of the persons occupation (OCCr)
That does not sound like 98% of mages are really just hobbyist who train at the YMCA

Yeah, you can say that RUE extrapolated it to all skills, but it did so in such a way that there is no functional difference between taking most skills as an OCC, OCC related, or secondary skill. HtH basic and the WPs available as secondary skills give the exact same bonuses. A mystic who takes wp energy rifle as a secondary skill and scores a called shot to your unprotected head with a Wilks rifle will turn it into so much mist just as well as the guy who got it as an OCC skill.

Heck, the example for the secondary skill being inferior is art. Because we all know that talented amateurs with no formal training never have outdone their professionally trained counterparts in the history of art.

So yeah, run with the canon rule if you want, but it is a moronic rule whose logic doesn't stand the slightest amount of scrutiny.

Canon is still canon
Arguing that your house rule trumps canon does not prove you right.
RUE says that the skill percentages/bonuses do not change but the "quality" does. You know the "role playing" not "roll playing" thing.
While there is no "functional difference" there is still a game mechanics universe definition.
And THAT is what defines if a mage is or is not "Trained for Combat" to argue that the mechanics are wrong, and that even though the rules say that someone has been trained, that they really have NOT been trained... because a person thinks that mages should not have that training is the epitome of a house rule.

You can argue that at your table you have changed the game so that your mages are unskilled combatants like the old D&D days...
...but that does not mean that the game is that way, just that you have rewritten the game to be that way.

[Killer Cyborg]

What we have per canon, going with Eliakon's view, seems to be:
a) Some mages are "professionally trained" for combat.
b) Mages are "not good at combat," and are not "combat classes."

[eliakon]

What we have per canon, going with Eliakon's vies, seems to be:
a) Some mages are "professionally trained" for combat.
b) Mages are "not good at combat," and are not "combat classes."

Incorrect
We have specific rules that lay out what the requirements for professional training are, and specific rules defining what various skills are and what those skills mean.

We have a non-rule editorial that says that there are "combat classes", "scholar classes", and so forth, but does not define them nor rule out anyone being in multiple of these 'classes' (since they are NOT the Man-At-Arms/Men of Magic) and then goes on to talk about how a GM can reward people that are one of these ill defined sub groups by letting those who roleplay as a member of that group get bonus experience.

Somehow people are leaping from "this non-rule lays out a ground work on how to reward the role-playing of people playing in character" to "And thus 98% of all mages are not trained for combat and are really just amateurs with some hobby skills in a sport regardless of what the rules say"

I'm all for house rules... but peoples personal house rules have zero to do with a discussion here about Canon/RAW.

[dreicunan]

@Eliakon: Strawmen beware! I clearly wasn't claiming that canon wasn't canon. I merely pointed out that the canon rule was stupid. My entire point was that using this distinction doesn't actually help this argument. To clarify, it doesn't help it because, first, as KC just pointed out, canon conflicts if you try to go this route, and because, second, Palladium's system isn't really committed to the whole professional vs amateur skill thing anyways. Contrary to your claims, arbitrarily declaring that the number doesn't matter compared to the skill level is just as much "roll" playing as not. After all, this means that the system is saying that if you have a level 15 character with cooking as a secondary skill from level 1 on, no matter how much they have practiced a dish or how well they roll, their product will be inferior to a level one vagabond. Wait, a better question is where are all these vagabonds getting professional training in bartering, cooking, two other domestic skills of choice, identifying undercover agents, being streetwise, and...combat?!?!?!

That's right, vagabonds are apparently professional soldiers now, because they have professional level combat training.

Or, perhaps, this whole line of argument is not doing anything to help establish if mages are "combat trained" in the sense that KC originally used it.

[Killer Cyborg]

What we have per canon, going with Eliakon's vies, seems to be:
a) Some mages are "professionally trained" for combat.
b) Mages are "not good at combat," and are not "combat classes."

Incorrect
We have specific rules that lay out what the requirements for professional training are, and specific rules defining what various skills are and what those skills mean.

We have a non-rule editorial that says that there are "combat classes", "scholar classes", and so forth, but does not define them nor rule out anyone being in multiple of these 'classes' (since they are NOT the Man-At-Arms/Men of Magic) and then goes on to talk about how a GM can reward people that are one of these ill defined sub groups by letting those who roleplay as a member of that group get bonus experience.

That still leaves mages not being good at combat.

[Killer Cyborg]

Or, perhaps, this whole line of argument is not doing anything to help establish if mages are "combat trained" in the sense that KC originally used it.

Bingo.


Being "professionally trained" at YMCA Karate wouldn't constitute "combat training" in the context of the original discussion.

Again, if people want to argue, "But mages ARE combat trained in other contexts," sure. No problem.
I mean, so's pretty much everybody else in Rifts, but most mages do technically have some level of combat training.

[Nightmask]

I am sorry you can NOT claim that someone is BOTH 'professional quality' and 'the equivalent of martial arts classes from the YMCA')

Sure you can.
Why not?

I concur; it is entirely possible that the instructor for the martial arts classes at the YMCA is indeed imparting "professional quality" instruction to one's students.

This whole "professional quality" thing seems rather misapplied here, anyways. It was a distinction brought about for domestic and some technical skills. I don't know that it can be extrapolated to hand-to-hand or physical skills. It isn't even all that good a distinction for the domestic or technical skills. After all, the author of the Twilight series is a professional author (she gets paid to write), and I've read plenty of amateur fan-fiction that beats out her works (seriously, they made the dictionary definition of purple prose go "Wow, you're just being silly now"). Need we mention the twilight fan-fiction that got turned into the 50 shades series and also makes that author a "professional author."

I think you're missing the point being made, namely that 'Martial Arts classes at the YMCA' is used dismissively, rating the training as inferior i.e. NOT professional quality. People don't refer to classes at the YMCA when they're talking about professional training they're using it to dismiss the quality of the classes. However good they might be the reference itself is dismissing the quality of the training/education.

[Nightmask]

I am sorry you can NOT claim that someone is BOTH 'professional quality' and 'the equivalent of martial arts classes from the YMCA')

Sure you can.
Why not?

Indeed. Professional quality combat training can only be obtained by joining the military. On the other hand, professional quality training in sport fighting can be relatively easy to find.

Where does it even remotely say that professional quality combat training requires one to learn it as part of a military?

[eliakon]

Or, perhaps, this whole line of argument is not doing anything to help establish if mages are "combat trained" in the sense that KC originally used it.

Bingo.


Being "professionally trained" at YMCA Karate wouldn't constitute "combat training" in the context of the original discussion.

Again, if people want to argue, "But mages ARE combat trained in other contexts," sure. No problem.
I mean, so's pretty much everybody else in Rifts, but most mages do technically have some level of combat training.

And once again if KC wants to start a new thread where he uses a different term fine
But he used a term that has a SPECIFIC in game mechanics meaning.
"Combat Training" has been defined in the rule book as having meaning X
That sort of means that people don't get to go around and say "Well I am going to use a different meaning for this, then say that no one has it unless I say they do, and then claim that any arguments that are predicated on using the actual rules are flawed because they are trying to use the canon terms and not my own personal term that I am not defining as anything other than "The goal post that is just beyond your reach""

Canon has defined the words "Combat Trained"
It did this when it says that certain skills provide training in combat (That is sort of the definition here)
As that point ANY claim that something else is ALSO required to be trained is instantly and utterly a house rule.

[eliakon]

@Eliakon: Strawmen beware! I clearly wasn't claiming that canon wasn't canon. I merely pointed out that the canon rule was stupid. My entire point was that using this distinction doesn't actually help this argument. To clarify, it doesn't help it because, first, as KC just pointed out, canon conflicts if you try to go this route, and because, second, Palladium's system isn't really committed to the whole professional vs amateur skill thing anyways. Contrary to your claims, arbitrarily declaring that the number doesn't matter compared to the skill level is just as much "roll" playing as not. After all, this means that the system is saying that if you have a level 15 character with cooking as a secondary skill from level 1 on, no matter how much they have practiced a dish or how well they roll, their product will be inferior to a level one vagabond. Wait, a better question is where are all these vagabonds getting professional training in bartering, cooking, two other domestic skills of choice, identifying undercover agents, being streetwise, and...combat?!?!?!

That's right, vagabonds are apparently professional soldiers now, because they have professional level combat training.

Or, perhaps, this whole line of argument is not doing anything to help establish if mages are "combat trained" in the sense that KC originally used it.

okay in order
1) the person with level 15 secondary skill will SUCCEED more often, but the QUALITY may not be as good. The first is something that is defined mechanically by the %. The second is defined stylistically by the GM.

2) Professional Soldier is different than "professional level training" but yes, they do. That is the RAW. (insurgents anyone?)

[Axelmania]

Professional quality combat training can only be obtained by joining the military.

Disagree here, mafia leg-breakers also engage in combat as a profession, and whoever instructs the military in combat could also instruct people who haven't joined a military on the side.

There are far less than 98% of mages whose only combatives training is the equivalent of what they could obtain from the YMCA.

Per FoM page 128 less than 2% of all NA mages could possibly be combat trained.

Having just brought up page 128, I am not understanding how you reached this conclusion.

For those mages who do not automatically begin with a combat skill, most still retain the option of purchasing one with OCC Related skills, and I do not know of any statistics regarding which ones do so.

If we happen to know the % of mages from OCCs which do not have mandatory HtH skills, that would only tell us the maximum possible amount which could lack combat training, not the maximum amount who could have it, which is 100% as I am not aware of any magical OCCs which forbid combat training.

A mystic who takes wp energy rifle as a secondary skill and scores a called shot to your unprotected head with a Wilks rifle will turn it into so much mist just as well as the guy who got it as an OCC skill.

Yes but if you made that called shot with a secondary skill, you'll look really sloppy while you blow your enemies head off. Do you want to look sloppy?

[Killer Cyborg]

Or, perhaps, this whole line of argument is not doing anything to help establish if mages are "combat trained" in the sense that KC originally used it.

Bingo.


Being "professionally trained" at YMCA Karate wouldn't constitute "combat training" in the context of the original discussion.

Again, if people want to argue, "But mages ARE combat trained in other contexts," sure. No problem.
I mean, so's pretty much everybody else in Rifts, but most mages do technically have some level of combat training.

And once again if KC wants to start a new thread where he uses a different term fine
But he used a term that has a SPECIFIC in game mechanics meaning.

You're dodging the point.

(now spend pages of thread explaining how I used the term "dodge" to mean something other than "roll a d20 vs a strike roll," that therefore I'm wrong, and therefore that's not what you're doing. )

[HWalsh]

Okay, here we go... From RUE Page 347

Hand to Hand: Basic
"This is an elementary form of hand to hand combat training."

This actually DOES stack up with the "Karate from the YMCA" analogy. It further says:
"Though it hardly stacks up to the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple everyday folk without combat training."

This clearly states that basic is NOT professional level combat training. It only appears to be combat skill when compared to someone with absolutely no training. If your Mage only gets basic? Guess what? They aren't combat trained. Not compared to anyone who actually IS combat trained.


(pg 348)
Hand to Hand: Expert
"This is the style taught to police officers, soldiers, bodyguards, thieves, and EVERYBODY ELSE who will be expected to live by violence." (emphasis mine)

-----

So, the defense is, "They are combat trained! They get hand to hand: basic!" Is thoroughly debunked by the book. That is NOT combat training BY THE BOOK. It is a lesser form of combat training.

[Ed]

Professional quality combat training can only be obtained by joining the military.

Disagree here, mafia leg-breakers also engage in combat as a profession, and whoever instructs the military in combat could also instruct people who haven't joined a military on the side.

You are confusing training in how to fight with war fighting i.e. Combat training. I could study and become a certified MCMAP instructor and I would be teaching MCMAP not training my students to be Marines. Likewise, just because I cleared the LINE pit at Paris Island 30 years ago doesn't mean I'm getting in the ring with Floyd Mayweather. There is more to combat than knowing how to punch and kick.

Having just brought up page 128, I am not understanding how you reached this conclusion.

For those mages who do not automatically begin with a combat skill, most still retain the option of purchasing one with OCC Related skills, and I do not know of any statistics regarding which ones do so.

Again, self defense classes or karate at the YMCA is NOT the equilivent of combat training.

If we happen to know the % of mages from OCCs which do not have mandatory HtH skills, that would only tell us the maximum possible amount which could lack combat training, not the maximum amount who could have it, which is 100% as I am not aware of any magical OCCs which forbid combat training.

There are only a limited number of spell casters that could conceivable be combat trained. These are limited to the <2% of a North American spell casters who falling into the temporal warrior and other category.

[Ed]

2) Professional Soldier is different than "professional level training" but yes, they do. That is the RAW. (insurgents anyone?)

Not so. A professional soldier is combat trained, an insurgent may know how to fight. There is a difference.

[Ed]

I am sorry you can NOT claim that someone is BOTH 'professional quality' and 'the equivalent of martial arts classes from the YMCA')

Sure you can.
Why not?

Indeed. Professional quality combat training can only be obtained by joining the military. On the other hand, professional quality training in sport fighting can be relatively easy to find.

Where does it even remotely say that professional quality combat training requires one to learn it as part of a military?

Where else would it be obtained? Certainly not from the YMCA. Soldiers are combat trained, to various degrees; brawlers, martial artists, or generic ass kickers, are not.

[eliakon]

Okay, here we go... From RUE Page 347

Hand to Hand: Basic
"This is an elementary form of hand to hand combat training."

This actually DOES stack up with the "Karate from the YMCA" analogy. It further says:
"Though it hardly stacks up to the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple everyday folk without combat training."

This clearly states that basic is NOT professional level combat training. It only appears to be combat skill when compared to someone with absolutely no training. If your Mage only gets basic? Guess what? They aren't combat trained. Not compared to anyone who actually IS combat trained.


(pg 348)
Hand to Hand: Expert
"This is the style taught to police officers, soldiers, bodyguards, thieves, and EVERYBODY ELSE who will be expected to live by violence." (emphasis mine)

-----

So, the defense is, "They are combat trained! They get hand to hand: basic!" Is thoroughly debunked by the book. That is NOT combat training BY THE BOOK. It is a lesser form of combat training.

And when that skill is "professional grade"?
Not to mention the whole point that yes it IS combat training.
Because other wise I guess the RPA "Fly Boy" Ace is not combat trained (Only gets basic) That was just the first one I found by opening one book...
...but the simple fact that it exist pretty solidly proves that claiming that only starting with H2H: Basic means you are not combat trained is bunk.

And ummm I hate to break it to you but "Lesser form of combat training" is still combat training.

The claim was that mages were not trained for combat.
I some how think that the argument that they are only as good as say a RPA ace proves that they are untrained is sort of a joke.

[eliakon]

I am sorry you can NOT claim that someone is BOTH 'professional quality' and 'the equivalent of martial arts classes from the YMCA')

Sure you can.
Why not?

Indeed. Professional quality combat training can only be obtained by joining the military. On the other hand, professional quality training in sport fighting can be relatively easy to find.

Where does it even remotely say that professional quality combat training requires one to learn it as part of a military?

Where else would it be obtained? Certainly not from the YMCA. Soldiers are combat trained, to various degrees; brawlers, martial artists, or generic ass kickers, are not.

That is a nice house rule.
Do you have a shred of support for that in any way, shape or form?
Or are you simply defining that only formal military training is allowed to count as combat training and that anyone else that is a skilled combatant is not REALLY trained...so I guess a 15th level Temporal Warrior isn't combat trained because they never went to basic?

[eliakon]

2) Professional Soldier is different than "professional level training" but yes, they do. That is the RAW. (insurgents anyone?)

Not so. A professional soldier is combat trained, an insurgent may know how to fight. There is a difference.

Incorrect
A professional soldier is a person that is in a formal military and follows a specific kind of fighting, protocols, strategies, commands, ect.
It is a job not a skill.

[dreicunan]

@Eliakon: Yes, I haven't denied any of that. As I already pointed out, I am saying that it is ludicrous. The entire conceit that secondary skills will never match the quality of a "trained" individual is disproven by the fact that there are self-taught people throughout history who have beaten the "professionals." Remember that based on Palladium's logic, Bill Gates has computer programming and business and finance as secondary skills, because he never finished professional training.

[eliakon]

Professional quality combat training can only be obtained by joining the military.

Disagree here, mafia leg-breakers also engage in combat as a profession, and whoever instructs the military in combat could also instruct people who haven't joined a military on the side.

You are confusing training in how to fight with war fighting i.e. Combat training. I could study and become a certified MCMAP instructor and I would be teaching MCMAP not training my students to be Marines. Likewise, just because I cleared the LINE pit at Paris Island 30 years ago doesn't mean I'm getting in the ring with Floyd Mayweather. There is more to combat than knowing how to punch and kick.

Having just brought up page 128, I am not understanding how you reached this conclusion.

For those mages who do not automatically begin with a combat skill, most still retain the option of purchasing one with OCC Related skills, and I do not know of any statistics regarding which ones do so.

Again, self defense classes or karate at the YMCA is NOT the equilivent of combat training.

If we happen to know the % of mages from OCCs which do not have mandatory HtH skills, that would only tell us the maximum possible amount which could lack combat training, not the maximum amount who could have it, which is 100% as I am not aware of any magical OCCs which forbid combat training.

There are only a limited number of spell casters that could conceivable be combat trained. These are limited to the <2% of a North American spell casters who falling into the temporal warrior and other category.

So you are automatically defining all mages who are NOT temporal warriors or battle magus to by definition not be combat trained.
Interesting.
Now, I wait for your book support of this
Because so far all anyone has been able to do on this is to try the circular "Mages are not combat trained because we have defined that mages are not combat trained"
No one is willing to define combat training...
...except to say that some nebulous non-stat quality exists that allows people to have it... if they have a certain OCC, but not others.
Regardless of that persons background.

A leyline walker who served in a military is most certainly going to be combat trained. It is also likely where they picked up their H2H and WP...
...which btw is the SAME H2H as many military OCCs so the claim that they are not 'skilled enough' is bunk

[Ed]

And when that skill is "professional grade"?

It is still irrelevant. I can become a re-certified LINE instructor and provide professional grade instruction to anyone. I am not training Marines.

Not to mention the whole point that yes it IS combat training.

Wrong. Sport fight training is not combat training.

Because other wise I guess the RPA "Fly Boy" Ace is not combat trained (Only gets basic) That was just the first one I found by opening one book...
...but the simple fact that it exist pretty solidly proves that claiming that only starting with H2H: Basic means you are not combat trained is bunk.

And ummm I hate to break it to you but "Lesser form of combat training" is still combat training.

The claim was that mages were not trained for combat.
I some how think that the argument that they are only as good as say a RPA ace proves that they are untrained is sort of a joke.

Where did the RPA "Fly Boy" Ace receive their training? By being part of a military organization and being combat trained.

[Ed]

2) Professional Soldier is different than "professional level training" but yes, they do. That is the RAW. (insurgents anyone?)

Not so. A professional soldier is combat trained, an insurgent may know how to fight. There is a difference.

Incorrect
A professional soldier is a person that is in a formal military and follows a specific kind of fighting, protocols, strategies, commands, ect.
It is a job not a skill.

And part of those specific kinds of fighting, protocols, strategies, tectics, etc are their combat training. A necessary skill that is part of the profession.

[eliakon]

@Eliakon: Yes, I haven't denied any of that. As I already pointed out, I am saying that it is ludicrous. The entire conceit that secondary skills will never match the quality of a "trained" individual is disproven by the fact that there are self-taught people throughout history who have beaten the "professionals." Remember that based on Palladium's logic, Bill Gates has computer programming and business and finance as secondary skills, because he never finished professional training.

a few problems here
1) this is not the real world
2) you can take a secondary skill twice to raise it to professional level
3) you are wrongly conflating "collage" with "OCC" His OCC is not "Collage Graduate" it is more similar to something like the Analytical Hardware in HU...which does not go to collage either.
4) you are also mistaken on what OCCr skills are. Those skills of Bill Gates that he learned "on the job" as he went? Yeah, OCCr


And yes, there will be a rare individual that bucks the system... Hmmm Lone Star and its talents anyone? But the one in a million outliers don't disprove the general rules.

[eliakon]

2) Professional Soldier is different than "professional level training" but yes, they do. That is the RAW. (insurgents anyone?)

Not so. A professional soldier is combat trained, an insurgent may know how to fight. There is a difference.

Incorrect
A professional soldier is a person that is in a formal military and follows a specific kind of fighting, protocols, strategies, commands, ect.
It is a job not a skill.

And part of those specific kinds of fighting, protocols, strategies, tectics, etc are their combat training. A necessary skill that is part of the profession.

Good, now show me, specifically where that is on the character sheet.

[eliakon]

And when that skill is "professional grade"?

It is still irrelevant. I can become a re-certified LINE instructor and provide professional grade instruction to anyone. I am not training Marines.

Again irrelavent.
If the people end up with PROFESSIONAL QUALITY skills, then they are... wait for it... just as skilled as a professional

Not to mention the whole point that yes it IS combat training.

Wrong. Sport fight training is not combat training.

Yeah... to bad this isn't Sport Fighting.
I know you like to bring that up.
But that is not what the book is using.
Your making up something that doesn't exist to knock down.

Because other wise I guess the RPA "Fly Boy" Ace is not combat trained (Only gets basic) That was just the first one I found by opening one book...
...but the simple fact that it exist pretty solidly proves that claiming that only starting with H2H: Basic means you are not combat trained is bunk.

And ummm I hate to break it to you but "Lesser form of combat training" is still combat training.

The claim was that mages were not trained for combat.
I some how think that the argument that they are only as good as say a RPA ace proves that they are untrained is sort of a joke.

Where did the RPA "Fly Boy" Ace receive their training? By being part of a military organization and being combat trained.

Now, show me, exactly, where on their character sheet they have a statisitical or skill difference.
Where their H2H basic is noted as providing combat training while a mages H2H basic (or expert, or martial arts, or assassin if evil) does not?

[Axelmania]

Okay, here we go... From RUE Page 347

Hand to Hand: Basic
"This is an elementary form of hand to hand combat training."

This actually DOES stack up with the "Karate from the YMCA" analogy. It further says:
"Though it hardly stacks up to the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple everyday folk without combat training."

This clearly states that basic is NOT professional level combat training. It only appears to be combat skill when compared to someone with absolutely no training. If your Mage only gets basic? Guess what? They aren't combat trained. Not compared to anyone who actually IS combat trained.


(pg 348)
Hand to Hand: Expert
"This is the style taught to police officers, soldiers, bodyguards, thieves, and EVERYBODY ELSE who will be expected to live by violence." (emphasis mine)

-----

So, the defense is, "They are combat trained! They get hand to hand: basic!" Is thoroughly debunked by the book. That is NOT combat training BY THE BOOK. It is a lesser form of combat training.

I think you should reread what you just cited, I added a couple bolded phrases to you quote.

Basic is "combat training" and the character fights "with combat skill". That is clearly "trained for combat".

It doesn't merely "appear" to be combat skill, it IS combat skill.

It doesn't stack up against better combat skills, but so what?

I'm not sure how you miss the obvious contradiction between "it is a lesser form of combat training" and "is not combat training". You just admitted it was combat training.

Who cares if it's a lesser form? That's like saying level 1 spells aren't spells because they're a lesser form of spell than level 2 spells.

You are confusing training in how to fight with war fighting i.e. Combat training.

I'm not confusing anything, I don't believe "combat" by default means military warfare.

Again, self defense classes or karate at the YMCA is NOT the equilivent of combat training.

Seems you are inserting a very narrow definition of 'combat' that Palladium doesn't embrace.

There are only a limited number of spell casters that could conceivable be combat trained. These are limited to the <2% of a North American spell casters who falling into the temporal warrior and other category.

You still have yet to provide a page citation to support this claim.

A leyline walker who served in a military is most certainly going to be combat trained. It is also likely where they picked up their H2H and WP...
...which btw is the SAME H2H as many military OCCs so the claim that they are not 'skilled enough' is bunk

A good example would be the Mage Militia of Kingston, I believe they have HTH Basic.

Interestingly enough, the Vanguard (SoT 3) allowed a cheaper upgrade of HTH skills even though they're more guerilla anti-mage terrorists than a military.

[Killer Cyborg]

No one is willing to define combat training...
...except to say that some nebulous non-stat quality exists that allows people to have it... if they have a certain OCC, but not others.
Regardless of that persons background.

"Combat training" would be defined as "training" in "combat."

The main issue here is that there are more than one definition for "combat."
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/combat

1. to fight or contend against; oppose vigorously: to combat crime.

verb (used without object), combated, combating or (especially British) combatted, combatting.
2.to battle; contend: to combat with disease.

noun
3. Military. active, armed fighting with enemy forces.

4. a fight, struggle, or controversy, as between two persons, teams, or ideas.

Ed and I seem to be more or less going with definition 3.

[Ed]

So you are automatically defining all mages who are NOT temporal warriors or battle magus to by definition not be combat trained.
Interesting.

There are likely a handfull of others I may have overlooked.

Now, I wait for your book support of this

FoM page 128 + basic multiplication + NC public high school level of reading comprehension.

Warning: For Trolling. Presenting your evidence or not is up to you, but this kind of 'figure it out' statement is just a vieled comment on someone's intelligence.

Because so far all anyone has been able to do on this is to try the circular "Mages are not combat trained because we have defined that mages are not combat trained"
No one is willing to define combat training...
...except to say that some nebulous non-stat quality exists that allows people to have it... if they have a certain OCC, but not others.

Defining combat training is relatively easy: soldiers have to learn to shoot, move, and communicate as part of their unit. Develop and execute tactical plans and decisions and manage the fog of war.

Regardless of that persons background.

A leyline walker who served in a military is most certainly going to be combat trained. It is also likely where they picked up their H2H and WP...
...which btw is the SAME H2H as many military OCCs so the claim that they are not 'skilled enough' is bunk

You do realize that your example proves the arguement that as a rule mages are not combat trained?

[Ed]

[

You are confusing training in how to fight with war fighting i.e. Combat training.

I'm not confusing anything, I don't believe "combat" by default means military warfare.

The United States Marine Corps is inclined to think differently. At least they did 30 years ago. I'll continue to use their definition as they are far and away the more qualified source.

Seems you are inserting a very narrow definition of 'combat' that Palladium doesn't embrace.

Palladium makes a distinction between fighting and combat.

There are only a limited number of spell casters that could conceivable be combat trained. These are limited to the <2% of a North American spell casters who falling into the temporal warrior and other category.

You still have yet to provide a page citation to support this claim.[/quote]

Look again, FoM page 128.

[Killer Cyborg]

A leyline walker who served in a military is most certainly going to be combat trained. It is also likely where they picked up their H2H and WP...
...which btw is the SAME H2H as many military OCCs so the claim that they are not 'skilled enough' is bunk

A good example would be the Mage Militia of Kingston, I believe they have HTH Basic.

Agreed.
But that's not the typical mage.

Also, they'd apparently still not be "good at combat."

[eliakon]

[

You are confusing training in how to fight with war fighting i.e. Combat training.

I'm not confusing anything, I don't believe "combat" by default means military warfare.

The United States Marine Corps is inclined to think differently. At least they did 30 years ago. I'll continue to use their definition as they are far and away the more qualified source.

This isn't the USMC its palladium
Now you are welcome to use your own personal house rules at your own table.
But that is not the RAW of the game.

Seems you are inserting a very narrow definition of 'combat' that Palladium doesn't embrace.

Palladium makes a distinction between fighting and combat.

This is a pretty fine hair that is being split there

There are only a limited number of spell casters that could conceivable be combat trained. These are limited to the <2% of a North American spell casters who falling into the temporal warrior and other category.

You still have yet to provide a page citation to support this claim.

Look again, FoM page 128.[/quote]
And you have still yet to support this claim with anything else than "Well its true because I say it is"

[eliakon]

[quote="Ed]
A leyline walker who served in a military is most certainly going to be combat trained. It is also likely where they picked up their H2H and WP...
...which btw is the SAME H2H as many military OCCs so the claim that they are not 'skilled enough' is bunk[/quote]

You do realize that your example proves the arguement that as a rule mages are not combat trained?[/quote]
Really?
Do you have a book source on the background information on all the mages in North America and where they all learned all of their OCCr skills?
I mean obviously somewhere in their background someplace they learned professional level fighting skills...
...they didn't just wake up one day and say "I know kung-fu" and fight Morpheus.
They probably served in a Militia, or the like... you know got trained?

[Ed]

Again irrelavent.
If the people end up with PROFESSIONAL QUALITY skills, then they are... wait for it... just as skilled as a professional

LOL it takes more than LINE to make a Marine.

Now, show me, exactly, where on their character sheet they have a statisitical or skill difference.
Where their H2H basic is noted as providing combat training while a mages H2H basic (or expert, or martial arts, or assassin if evil) does not?

The canon rule is mages are NOT as good at combat as soldiers. They are spell casters/magic users first; war fighters second (at best). Regardless of their ability to punch, kick or fire a laser.

[Ed]

[

Seems you are inserting a very narrow definition of 'combat' that Palladium doesn't embrace.

Palladium makes a distinction between fighting and combat.

This is a pretty fine hair that is being split there

Speaking as someone who has been in combat. Not as fine as you would seem to believe.

And you have still yet to support this claim with anything else than "Well its true because I say it is"

Reading is fundamental. As is math.

[eliakon]

A leyline walker who served in a military is most certainly going to be combat trained. It is also likely where they picked up their H2H and WP...
...which btw is the SAME H2H as many military OCCs so the claim that they are not 'skilled enough' is bunk

A good example would be the Mage Militia of Kingston, I believe they have HTH Basic.

Agreed.
But that's not the typical mage.

Also, they'd apparently still not be "good at combat."

How do we know that's not the typical mage?
I mean a large portion of the classes start with H2H: Basic as an OCC or OCCr skill.
Seems like that implies that a large number of them likely DID serve in Militias or local militaries and the like.
Skills don't just "happen" they have to be learned.
And you don't just pick up professional combat skills by falling out of a tree... you have to be trained. Seems that a military experience is as good a source as any.
Granted this falls in the realm of "PC background" but its utterly untouched by the books.

Or I guess we can take a non-rule essay in the BOM as gospel truth and decide that all mages are suicidal idiots that escaped from 1st edition D&D and cower with their darts behind the fighters.

[Ed]

Do you have a book source on the background information on all the mages in North America and where they all learned all of their OCCr skills?
I mean obviously somewhere in their background someplace they learned professional level fighting skills...
...they didn't just wake up one day and say "I know kung-fu" and fight Morpheus.
They probably served in a Militia, or the like... you know got trained?

Perhaps they took karate classes at the YMCA.

[Axelmania]

How about when we talk about 'combat' we go with the standard Palladium Books usage of the term?

For example http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/61131 "RECON is set in a fictional world that parallels that of 20th Century Earth and focuses on the realistic military combat of the Vietnam era."

There would be no point in saying things like "military combat" is all combat was military by default.

Rifter 2 page 53 (The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons, paragraph 4) "Suitable for use with all role-playing games of modern combat, from military to superheroes."

Obviously extends combat beyond military applications, I don't think most superheroes are meant to be in the military.

Look again, FoM page 128.

I'm the one who introduced page 128 to this thread, and you haven't specified where in the page supports it. The only place I see 2% mentioned is mages who know temporal magic.

Agreed. But that's not the typical mage. Also, they'd apparently still not be "good at combat."

Point me to where it says most mages have no HtH whatsoever and I'll agree. Otherwise, that's up in the air.

The thread is whether they're trained for combat, not whether they're trained WELL for combat, no goalpost-shifting KC.

[eliakon]

Again irrelavent.
If the people end up with PROFESSIONAL QUALITY skills, then they are... wait for it... just as skilled as a professional

LOL it takes more than LINE to make a Marine.

Again you are making the fallacy of trying to coflate "being combat trained" with "being a marine"

Now, show me, exactly, where on their character sheet they have a statisitical or skill difference.
Where their H2H basic is noted as providing combat training while a mages H2H basic (or expert, or martial arts, or assassin if evil) does not?

The canon rule is mages are NOT as good at combat as soldiers. They are spell casters/magic users first; war fighters second (at best). Regardless of their ability to punch, kick or fire a laser.

Specific book and page. The EXACT quote please. And it needs to be a rule, not a flavor text, not a "here is a guide to how to RP" but an actual RULE.

[

Seems you are inserting a very narrow definition of 'combat' that Palladium doesn't embrace.

Palladium makes a distinction between fighting and combat.

This is a pretty fine hair that is being split there

Speaking as someone who has been in combat. Not as fine as you would seem to believe.

You are not the only military veteran here.
Be that as it may, the ability to fight a war is not the only definition of combat.
Especially in a game where the ability to fight a war is not an option and the entire system is set up around small, individual scale combat.

And you have still yet to support this claim with anything else than "Well its true because I say it is"

Reading is fundamental. As is math.

Insulting people does not prove anything.
you have made a flat claim that 98% of mages have no combat skill.
When ask how you dismiss the 98% of mages you say "because they don't have combat skill"
That is proof by assertion.
I sort of want proof by proof.

[eliakon]

Do you have a book source on the background information on all the mages in North America and where they all learned all of their OCCr skills?
I mean obviously somewhere in their background someplace they learned professional level fighting skills...
...they didn't just wake up one day and say "I know kung-fu" and fight Morpheus.
They probably served in a Militia, or the like... you know got trained?

Perhaps they took karate classes at the YMCA.

If they have it as a secondary skill sure.

[Killer Cyborg]

Do you have a book source on the background information on all the mages in North America and where they all learned all of their OCCr skills?
I mean obviously somewhere in their background someplace they learned professional level fighting skills...
...they didn't just wake up one day and say "I know kung-fu" and fight Morpheus.
They probably served in a Militia, or the like... you know got trained?

Perhaps they took karate classes at the YMCA.

If they have it as a secondary skill sure.

Do you have a source that states that professionals cannot learn martial arts at the YMCA?