Thousand Magicks power level

[Whiskeyjack]

I found a brief discussion on this while searching the forum this week.
During the Time of a Thousand Magicks, the book states that magic energy is equivalent to Rifts Earth.
It seems without the technology of Rifts Earth, any mortal creature would have been wiped out by any magical/supernatural creature unless they had powerful magic abilities of their own.
How would you run a game in that setting? Would all the magical creatures be MDC? Would spells just be more powerful versions of SDC? How would you handle the excess of magic energy?

[kiralon]

Magic Users would be feared and essential for the survival of any realm or group. Magic defences would be woven into things like castles and structures otherwise a couple of firebolts would end you.
I made it that the things attached to evil magic tended to be sun sensitive, so if go out at night you are literally taking a risk on your life as they were way more active at night. Most supernatural creatures can only be hurt by magic and magic weapons.
I also had a lot more faeries around and mostly based them on the english/irish/Scottish/celtic types.
So having a Brownie helping your house could literally save your life too, as it would defend the people who "lives in the home and has for more then 7 moons"<--- important wording hehe.
Monsters were MDC, yet usually had a weakness to a normal something that did normal damage, but effectively does mdc to them, like silver to werewolves, Cold Forged, as in never been tainted by fire, iron (can't be steel as steel has been heated)
Spellcasters had to make control rolls or suck down to much power with side effects like extra extra range or damage, to things like permanent hearing loss and burning yourself away to ash. The problem wasn't accessing the power, it was turning it off 80ft tall loaf of bread fell on the players for example, and then they had a milk flood seconds later. Wands and staffs made it easier to control the flow by allowing tapping a certain amount of power before needing to make control rolls, as well as other powers of course.
People sometimes had strange magical effects, a bit like spontaneous psionics.
Churches really were a magical and usually physical defense. If in trouble, especially at night get thee hither to a church.
Homes built by mortals that were built properly with a prepared foundation stone, the first stone lain for the house, had extra protection against magic and the magical, especially darker magics (Basically a built in circle of protection from magic and protection from evil) but that protection is negated if you are invited in by a person living in the house and has lived in the home and has for more then 3 moons. I allow this to be done still but with lesser bonuses.
Looked at heaps of different rpg's and books for different names for different types of magic, the players always ask, http://fantasynamegenerators.com/magic-types.php might help there though.
I'll look to see if I can still find that part of the campaign.

[Library Ogre]

Basically, yes. Without magic (or psionics), you were essentially at the mercy of any beast that cared to destroy you.

HOWEVER, consider that magic then was much like technology now... it wasn't just spells, but got woven into everything. Earth magic helped your plants to grow. Weather magic made the day sunny when it needed to. Weaving magic was woven into clothes. Smiths sang spells to weapons and armor as they were forged. Regomancy helped kings rule. Magic was part and parcel of everything done, and so you'd have very few people without any access to magic.

Two examples I can think of, from other games and settings: Dragaera and Earthdawn. In Dragaera, raising the dead is so common that assassins might be employed to kill someone as a message. Teleporting across the continent? If you don't know your destination well enough, you can hire someone to take you for a modest fee. You can even check the time by psychically consulting the magic clock.

In Earthdawn, you have people without much magic, but every PC is designed with magic in mind. Warriors don't just swing their swords... they use magic to learn to swing their swords faster than a mundane could learn it, and they learn to use elemental magic to leap through the air or strengthen their bodies. Thieves MIGHT use a metal lockpick, but they also use magic to summon a telekinetic lock pick. They don't just NOTICE traps, they divine them.

If I were to run a game in that setting, it would be under far different rules than a standard Palladium game.

[smkeyes]

From the first book of magic a blurb on the time of a thousand magics makes Mark's post seem right on the mark. Everyone if the had the ability could learn and use magic.

[Glistam]

High magical energy isn't what makes magic and the supernatural M.D.C.. It's a property of that dimension. Basically, if M.D.C. technology exists, then magic and the supernatural become M.D.C. when in that dimension regardless of magic level. Rifts Dimension Book 7 discusses this in more detail. This is not something I personally agree with but it seems to be the official stance.

[eliakon]

I found a brief discussion on this while searching the forum this week.
During the Time of a Thousand Magicks, the book states that magic energy is equivalent to Rifts Earth.
It seems without the technology of Rifts Earth, any mortal creature would have been wiped out by any magical/supernatural creature unless they had powerful magic abilities of their own.
How would you run a game in that setting? Would all the magical creatures be MDC? Would spells just be more powerful versions of SDC? How would you handle the excess of magic energy?

The first question that a GM would have to decide is if the want the world to be MDC.
If the "dimensional matrix" does not support MDC, then no level of magic will ever make it MDC. (my theory is that PF is not now, nor ever a MDC world, and thus magic did not 'mist' people)

Other issues are thinks like how many ley lines (are they larger... are the 'effect areas' wider, do you have more of the 'rips' and other oddities)

PPE regeneration and PPE Base might be looked at as well

A way to look at this might be to look at the MDC magic in RT and the MDC magic in Rifts or Phase world.
They both have Magic... and it both MD... but one of them is vastly more common, with tons of more options.

[Whiskeyjack]

I dislike MDC even in Rifts. I think RT is the only setting I really like it in. Makes sense with the massive robot ships. I expect people to vaporized my missiles.
A nexus would have to be located at Glade, and since LoB states that ley lines move on Palladium, I would assume there would be many additional ones at that time.
I would think that with an SDC setting and that magic level that many of the spells would have increased damage/effect. Although spells that do no damage are generally identical in PF and Rifts, so that may not be accurate either.

[eliakon]

I would also point out that the worlds of BTS, Palladium Fantasy, Heroes Unlimited, Ninja's and Superspies, Nightbane and the like all have differing levels of magic...
...and yet the changes in spells tend to be modest when they exist at all and not always in expected places (different versions might be differentiated by a save, or casting time, or some other variable not just duration/damage/range)

[Whiskeyjack]

That is very true. I'm still trying to figure out why Call Lightning and Fire Ball are so powerful in Nightspawn.

[Veknironth]

Well, wouldn't magic be the technology? Whereas PC's in Rifts have technological armor and weapons, the magic rich societies probably had all manner of magic based items of which we are unaware.

-Vek
"It's a mistake to have organic creatures be MDC and do MDC damage."

[kiralon]

"It's a mistake to have organic creatures be MDC and do MDC damage."

I agree but include sdc on that list as well (well any creatures that don't have an exoskeleton anyway)

Its just like the missing magic defences from the game, the story makes it hard to play because there is stuff missing from the game to make it plausible. The magic back then would have been strong enough to shape continents.

[Whiskeyjack]

Well, wouldn't magic be the technology? Whereas PC's in Rifts have technological armor and weapons, the magic rich societies probably had all manner of magic based items of which we are unaware.

-Vek
"It's a mistake to have organic creatures be MDC and do MDC damage."

It definitely would. I would imagine magical communication would replace cell phones, magical view screens would give you live access to gladiatorial games and cross continent meetings, flying ships and teleportation circles/magic doorways instead of cars and planes. Even horseless carriages, powered simply by magic.
Even hot and cold water would be provided magically, as would eternal flames in ovens and furnaces, and glowing crystals for lights and permanent ice boxes for fridges and freezers.

[kiralon]

Well, wouldn't magic be the technology? Whereas PC's in Rifts have technological armor and weapons, the magic rich societies probably had all manner of magic based items of which we are unaware.

-Vek
"It's a mistake to have organic creatures be MDC and do MDC damage."

It definitely would. I would imagine magical communication would replace cell phones, magical view screens would give you live access to gladiatorial games and cross continent meetings, flying ships and teleportation circles/magic doorways instead of cars and planes. Even horseless carriages, powered simply by magic.
Even hot and cold water would be provided magically, as would eternal flames in ovens and furnaces, and glowing crystals for lights and permanent ice boxes for fridges and freezers.

That would happen if the magic was regulated, because with the power of magic then a squabble between 2 apprentice wizards could blow away your city. Since magic wasn't regulated and most of the magics destroyed I think it would have been more like the dark ages except there would be wondrous self made mageking towers/towns where most people lived in fear of magic. People tend to be asshats when they get great power.
I think that advanced magic like that would have been more likely around for the elves and dwarves just before their war.

[Whiskeyjack]

I've always envisioned the time as having more smaller communities of like minded individuals, as opposed to large city states. Most would be based on similar types of magic. So a town of 5000 people would consist of a large amount of warlocks, another would be built around plant mages with large farms, another would be air docks for making and repairing flying ships. Commerce would still be required for a lot of people though, even with a lot of magic prevalent, hence the teleportation circles and other forms of magic travel. Being mages, they would all be positive that their form is the best, so magical duels broadcast through scrying pools, crystal balls etc would be very popular.
My feeling from the books on the age of elves, is that magic has pretty much settled into the current forms, with a few noteworthy exceptions (like runes). A lot of the other magics have disappeared or are used by very few casters. After the purification, the remnants of the thousand magicks are pretty much gone,

[kiralon]

I've always envisioned the time as having more smaller communities of like minded individuals, as opposed to large city states. Most would be based on similar types of magic. So a town of 5000 people would consist of a large amount of warlocks, another would be built around plant mages with large farms, another would be air docks for making and repairing flying ships. Commerce would still be required for a lot of people though, even with a lot of magic prevalent, hence the teleportation circles and other forms of magic travel. Being mages, they would all be positive that their form is the best, so magical duels broadcast through scrying pools, crystal balls etc would be very popular.
My feeling from the books on the age of elves, is that magic has pretty much settled into the current forms, with a few noteworthy exceptions (like runes). A lot of the other magics have disappeared or are used by very few casters. After the purification, the remnants of the thousand magicks are pretty much gone,

But all it takes is a pair of spellcasters to disagree and they can leave the town in molten ruin, not to mention the crazies. I think it would have been more like islands of civilisations in the seas of darkness, but I do think you are correct in those civilised places would be running similar type magic, I just don't think it would have been high tech. Look at today we still have people beating their chests saying my [insert whatever here] is better than yours and I think the different types of magic users would have been the same so they wouldn't have worked together, otherwise they would have been able to stop the purification, and the purification seemed to be done from fear.

The elves actually had the flying ships and amazing flora and fauna, not so sure about teleportation circles but they can be done today and aren't really. How much would it cost a merchant guild to get a circle of teleportation in each of the places with a circle big enough to move tons at a time, and a circle of summon faerie. For the cost of a lamb (and summoner retainer) you would get all your goods moved instantaneously to pretty much anywhere in the world flawlessly.

[eliakon]

Island at the Edge of the World discusses this briefly...
And mentions that the various mages were often at each others throats, that there was a lot of competition and jealousy. That is why the Crystal Mage went into hiding after all.

[Whiskeyjack]

Competing and non friendly nations still do business together. Not everyone can produce everything, even with magic, and secrets aren't going to be shared too readily.
I would think with the amount of magic, there would be safeguards in place to prevent wholesale destruction. Either through a magical police force, or spells woven in to the buildings themselves. Without that, the period wouldn't have lasted a thousand years, and there wouldn't have been much of anything left to build from after.
The purification took place 70-80,000 years after the Time of a Thousand Magicks at the end of the Elf-Dwarf War. I have my own ideas on what ended the Thousand Magicks, but I'm saving that for a future Rifter submission. The elves were present during both ages, so I would imagine that they held onto several types of magic that would have been common at the time (like the flying ships). Being the only true power to remain ( I can only recall Rahu-men, Titans and maybe Gnomes as other potentials) they also would have had a fairly large monopoly on magic and the power to force others out of the picture.

[kiralon]

Competing and non friendly nations still do business together. Not everyone can produce everything, even with magic, and secrets aren't going to be shared too readily.
I would think with the amount of magic, there would be safeguards in place to prevent wholesale destruction. Either through a magical police force, or spells woven in to the buildings themselves. Without that, the period wouldn't have lasted a thousand years, and there wouldn't have been much of anything left to build from after.
The purification took place 70-80,000 years after the Time of a Thousand Magicks at the end of the Elf-Dwarf War. I have my own ideas on what ended the Thousand Magicks, but I'm saving that for a future Rifter submission. The elves were present during both ages, so I would imagine that they held onto several types of magic that would have been common at the time (like the flying ships). Being the only true power to remain ( I can only recall Rahu-men, Titans and maybe Gnomes as other potentials) they also would have had a fairly large monopoly on magic and the power to force others out of the picture.

I think there might have been a bit of trade, but I doubt they would have traded their magic secrets much (just check our glassblowers of history), and if the only records about flying ships haves them in the hands of the elves, why aren't there records about them in other places. Dwarves didn't have them because the elves controlled the skies, and the elves and dwarves were friendly but look where that ended (and they didn't share their magic either). Name any place today that shares their secrets readily, it wouldn't happen. History here shows people in power are happy to abuse that power and crush anything that threatens them, and if the different magics were that friendly to each other they would have helped each other during the purification rather than being picked off one by one. Even today how many different countries happily share what they have. Lesser things yes but why doesn't Australia have all the plans for the new joint strike fighter, that's because the people in power don't want to share that which keeps them in power. Thinking that people during the time of 1000 magicks were happy to share this sort of stuff is just plain unlikely.

It still comes down to people are asshats
people were asshats
and people will continue being asshats
about things that keep them rich and powerful

and the different magics would have done that.

I can agree with temporary allies that shifted around with big and little betrayals, but there doesn't seem to be any remnants of what would have been around. Magically protected castles and towns for example, even now that is still needed but doesn't exist in canon.

[Whiskeyjack]

I actually agreed with you in my post about not sharing magic secrets.
Since there is no record of the TOATM there wouldn't be any accounts of others having air ships. The elves were the last ones to posses the knowledge in recorded history. There's no mention where they learned how to build them.
The dwarves have a fair amount of conflicting information. Some sources say they appeared during the TOATM, others that the elves first discovered them at the beginning of their age. Whether this is from different writers not researching enough, or in game disputes from different scholars is unclear.
Personally, I see the people in power dealing with other kingdoms to obtain favours that could be used later to improve their status against other kingdoms. The same goes for trade. Everyone would be trying to increase their station by securing the most desired products from kingdoms that they were friendlier with. At least for the moment. The most impressive magic would be in possession of the ruling class (the ships, teleportation, communication etc). The working class and poor would likely have access to the most common magics (light, heat, basic transportation etc).

[kiralon]

Well considering the biggest populations from the time of a thousand magics pretty much had to be elves and dwarves you would think there would be more high magic stuff around from them like runeswords and flying ships if there was more of it. I guess it is possible each magic type had its own race as well but that does seem unlikely. Humans only really started about 14000 years ago.
Also Bletherad has non-tristine chronicle books about the war of the gods 20,000 years before ToaTM, and books about the time of magic (tristine chronicles books 13 - 16 are about the time of magics. 17-20 is about elves, 21-24 is elf dwarf wars).

[Whiskeyjack]

The main book section on the TOATM has dwarves, gnomes, kobolds establishing their kingdoms after the period. Somehow, that means that Elves and Dwarves remained relatively unknown to each other for around 50,000 years until the age of elves.
I'm sure there were certain magics that were race specific aside from Life Force for the Gromek. But I would think that it would be rare to see. Although Gnomes are often alluded to have had several unique forms to themselves.

[eliakon]

The main book section on the TOATM has dwarves, gnomes, kobolds establishing their kingdoms after the period. Somehow, that means that Elves and Dwarves remained relatively unknown to each other for around 50,000 years until the age of elves.
I'm sure there were certain magics that were race specific aside from Life Force for the Gromek. But I would think that it would be rare to see. Although Gnomes are often alluded to have had several unique forms to themselves.

To be completely honest the entire Palladium world timeline has... issues.
Ignoring the fact that they have, for example, been mining for 50,000 years and are still discovering new sources of material?
I have in the past used the contradictions and problems of the timeline as a plot points for my players to investigate (often the result is discovering that either the 'official history' is fake... or that there are supernatural controls on the world manipulating events, or both)

[kiralon]

The main book section on the TOATM has dwarves, gnomes, kobolds establishing their kingdoms after the period. Somehow, that means that Elves and Dwarves remained relatively unknown to each other for around 50,000 years until the age of elves.
I'm sure there were certain magics that were race specific aside from Life Force for the Gromek. But I would think that it would be rare to see. Although Gnomes are often alluded to have had several unique forms to themselves.

I think that sort of reinforces the idea that the various magic types had very little to do with each other unless they were all elves, and then there would be more artefacts left around of various denominations.

+1 Eliakon - I think its mostly a lack of consistent editing, and a lack of content. If there were more books to buy I'm pretty sure there would be more artefacts from the time of magics lingering about.

[Whiskeyjack]

To be completely honest the entire Palladium world timeline has... issues.
Ignoring the fact that they have, for example, been mining for 50,000 years and are still discovering new sources of material?
I have in the past used the contradictions and problems of the timeline as a plot points for my players to investigate (often the result is discovering that either the 'official history' is fake... or that there are supernatural controls on the world manipulating events, or both)

Yes it does.
They are using primitive mining techniques, which will definitely extend the length of time they can mine. It could also be a mineral rich world. I would also consider that the dwarves either weren't a subterranean race to begin with, but went underground at some point after they came into the world, or they spent the majority of their time deep in the dwarven underworld that has been alluded to. While they've been known to exist since the TOATM, maybe they didn't come up in large numbers until the age of elves. That gives them roughly 10,000 years to mine in the old kingdom mountains before their collapse, which at least seems plausible.

Kiralon, new books with lost magics would be awesome. I just picked up MoM and laughed when I read the blurb from KS (in 2009) "A new era for Palladium Fantasy is about to begin". Since then we've had Bizantium? Hopefully Phi and Lopan add some more ancient history whenever they come out.

I think at the start of the age, most of the magic would likely be concentrated and fairly common knowledge. As time progressed, and more and more mages started specializing, society would have started splintering into smaller communities of like minded and powered individuals. At the start it was likely a very open society. Most of the people were likely survivors of the chaos war and had a long history together. As they began to splinter and get more secretive distrust would have grown, lines would be drawn.
One thing that has always bugged me is the length of the period. It's only 1000 years. We know that elves, Titans, Rahu-men and dragons were very prominent. All of these races are very long lived with Elves being the shortest at 600+. The rest could have easily lived through the entire age. That seems unlikely to me. I've never thought of the long lived races as being big on innovation. It's the ones who don't have the time to last that bring the urgency to discovery. It does say in the books that at least a dozen kingdoms and races rose and fell though. That means at least 12 possibly unknown races and 12 kingdoms that were able to either rise to prominence with a specialized type of magic, or ones that were able to gather together several different, or at least related magics.
I would personally include Gromek, Lizard Mage, Centaur and Atlanteans in there.

[Library Ogre]

But all it takes is a pair of spellcasters to disagree and they can leave the town in molten ruin, not to mention the crazies.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

After all, when magic is built into everything... when your stone mason uses Masonry Magic as part of building your house, it might have its own resistance to magic. When your crops are tended by farmer-wizards, don't you think they're going to create charms to drive off swarms of bugs? If a Necromancer rises up and tries to animate the dead for his unholy army, there's not just a lone hero to oppose him, but an army of living mages with a broad array of specialties... you get less Die Hard and more GI Joe.

Even in the modern day, some of this is possible. Expensive, weird, and unfeasible for the world at large, but if I'm building a castle, I'm working in a protection circle, and, if I can swing it, a permanent ward against magic. And one against demons, and deevils, and faerie folk, and **** it, let's toss in one against angels, since summoning them and commanding them to destroy a city is a thing that can happen at 4th level. Your warlock isn't going to jander up to Caer Itom and lay Rivers of Lava everywhere, with 1d4 melee rounds before anyone can do anything, because the world makes little to no sense if that's possible.

[kiralon]

But all it takes is a pair of spellcasters to disagree and they can leave the town in molten ruin, not to mention the crazies.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

After all, when magic is built into everything... when your stone mason uses Masonry Magic as part of building your house, it might have its own resistance to magic. When your crops are tended by farmer-wizards, don't you think they're going to create charms to drive off swarms of bugs? If a Necromancer rises up and tries to animate the dead for his unholy army, there's not just a lone hero to oppose him, but an army of living mages with a broad array of specialties... you get less Die Hard and more GI Joe.

Even in the modern day, some of this is possible. Expensive, weird, and unfeasible for the world at large, but if I'm building a castle, I'm working in a protection circle, and, if I can swing it, a permanent ward against magic. And one against demons, and deevils, and faerie folk, and **** it, let's toss in one against angels, since summoning them and commanding them to destroy a city is a thing that can happen at 4th level. Your warlock isn't going to jander up to Caer Itom and lay Rivers of Lava everywhere, with 1d4 melee rounds before anyone can do anything, because the world makes little to no sense if that's possible.

That's one of my beefs, those protections aren't where they should be and circles are just too limited/limiting. I have said many times that palladium is missing this in canon, because the way the towns and cities don't have any magical protection means even now they would be gone in seconds/minutes (circle of elemental power anyone). There has to be a type of defensive magic we haven't seen yet. That's why I have foundation stone magic combined with rune magic and a few other things to do that myself, but straight out of the book a lvl1 summoner could easily destroy llorn or most cities. The castles and towns are like they have been picked up from Europe and plonked here without going through the requisite evolution of fighting off and surviving magical attacks.

[Cr'Imson]

There has to be a type of defensive magic we haven't seen yet.

Yes, it is called Divine Magic. Clerics/Priests, and Psychics (even if ported in through rifts), would need to be accounted for as well.



Cr'Imson

[Whiskeyjack]

Sounds like an excellent Rifter article Kiralon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

One thing that I'd do is take the Wizard OCC out of the available classes for a player to give their char. And would be encourage the players who wanted to be a magic user (mage/granted/intuitive) to make up a school of magic and proceed in making a char template around that school.

Why you might ask. It is "The Time of A 1000 Magics". None of the formalized "classes" have developed yet and the elf-dwarf war Culling of those type of magic hasn't happened Yet.

Another thing I'd encourage would be looking through the rifters and trying out one of the many (except the "Cargo Magic") magic presented there.


----------------------------------------

That is very true. I'm still trying to figure out why Call Lightning and Fire Ball are so powerful in Nightspawn.

Because it provides a balance to the game due to the toughness of the 'monsters' in the setting.

[Whiskeyjack]

Any recommendations on Rifter issues drewkitty? I have 1-8 and stopped there.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Any recommendations on Rifter issues drewkitty? I have 1-8 and stopped there.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=131372
Something I posted(-ing) about rifter magics.

[kiralon]

Any recommendations on Rifter issues drewkitty? I have 1-8 and stopped there.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/vi ... 9&t=131372
Something I posted(-ing) about rifter magics.

Nicely done sir.

[Whiskeyjack]

Any recommendations on Rifter issues drewkitty? I have 1-8 and stopped there.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=131372
Something I posted(-ing) about rifter magics.

Wow! That's quite the list. Good job. Time to do some reading then some shopping.

[gaby]

I hope Mysteries of Magic book two:Dak Magick will be maked,maybe a New Spells and New OCC.