What was the CS intended to invoke images of...

[IGNG]

If Prosek didn't know about it its only because he didn't think to ask and no one told him because they know he would approve. The first 20 or so pages of Heroes of Humanity makes it very clear that if Prosek didn't order it, its only because he just assumed that it was going to be done anyways. When was the last time the president of the united stats had to issue an order reminding military personnel to breathe?

[Eagle]

Murdering entire villages that have been found to harbor potentially dangerous enemies is not moral, but that's a pretty clear reference to the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam.

Its not what happend but the reaction to it. In the CS the people perpetrating the My Lai Massacre get medals for their 'dedication to the cause' and the crew of the helicopter get executed for 'aiding the enemy'. There is no follow up investigation or media coverage.

Did the 1970s court martial panel **** it up by the numbers? Yes. (I'll spare you the rant as to why)

Also I really hate the mindset of well so one else did something bad once so its fine.

So it's the equivalent of the My Lai Massacre when it's committed by a fascist state (ie, one in total control of the media)?

And I don't think Eagle was suggesting 'it's fine' just because there's historical precedence. Rather, he was pointing out that this particular bad thing is unfortunately a fairly common thing in human warfare; the concentration camps, on the other hand, are pretty unique in that respect, with only a single strong historical reference (the next closest would be the Siberian political prison camps, the re-education camps of the North Vietnamese, and of course, the U.S. internment camps for the Japanese; as horrid as all of those were, none of them matched Germany's camps, nor the "Final Solution", for unadulterated evil).

Now, the big question is, how high up the chain of command did knowledge of the CS camps go? If it's all the way to Prosek, then the case is closed. If it was a general acting in what he believed the Emperor wanted, but acting on his own authority, only, then... things get a bit muddier. (One can talk reasonably about the responsibility of the leader's rhetoric on his follower's decisions, but that still leaves open the possibility that Prosek himself would've recoiled if he'd been presented with a plan for the camps-as-such.)

HWalsh: What you have to recognize is how thorough the propaganda machine is. You say, "women and children", but the soldiers in question probably have been shown videos of seemingly innocent women and children transforming into demonic horrors and running amok. To that mindset, once the Dogboys tag a target, lethal force is justified. And so is executing a potentially treasonous soldier by summary execution.*

*: To be clear, I'm speaking here only of the mindset of the frontline grunts. The high command damn well has to know by now that there's more to it than that, and they deliberately keep that information from the grunts in order to keep them from developing sympathies for the regime's victims. But controlling information is a key part of how you get a good person to do evil things, and not even know that that's what they are doing.

Exactly.

There are several examples, in books that aren't about the Tolkeen war, of Coalition soldiers working with D-Bees and even mages. On the outskirts of civilization, sometimes you have an uneasy (and temporary) truce. The 'burbs are chock full of D-Bees. There are villages of funny-forehead aliens living in and around Coalition territory. Does the Coalition like these people? No. And no Coalition soldier is going to get in trouble for shooting a random non-human. But the Coalition doesn't have anything like the Final Solution in place.

Blowing up a village that's been found to be harboring a wizard, when you've been at war with armies of wizards, is not the same as rounding up every noncombatant from a particular race and sending them off to die in a death camp. Remember, that little old lady who is probably just a low level Mystic, could actually be a high level Shifter who can summon a horde of demons who eat children (fun fact, when I first wrote that phrase, I was answering a text at the same time and accidentally wrote "horde of demon-eating children", which is a different thing). Magic-users can look like anybody, so the fact that someone looks like a 90 year old woman doesn't mean they actually are. It only takes one Tolkeen soldier with shapechanging magic who changes into an old lady, and a soft-hearted grunt lets her go, then the mage turns around and kills half the squad, and the CS will change its policies on engagement real quick.

There were instances in Iraq where innocent people got killed because of the fear of suicide bombers. Some lady is driving her kids to school, doesn't see a checkpoint, doesn't stop, and gets gunned down by machine guns. A wedding party shoots guns in the air, a bullet pings off of some F-16 pilot's cockpit glass, and he drops bombs on them. When soldiers are worried about attacks from ambush, they shoot first and ask questions later.

I'm not familiar with the example of the CS soldier being executed for letting a lady and her baby go, but I haven't seen anything to show that that is the standard operating procedure for CS troops everywhere. It seems more like one particular group going to excess. And you're gonna get that in warfare. It sucks, but that's what it is.

[HWalsh]

operating procedure for CS troops everywhere. It seems more like one particular group going to excess. And you're gonna get that in warfare. It sucks, but that's what it is.

It was SOP for all CS soldiers in SoT.

[IGNG]

operating procedure for CS troops everywhere. It seems more like one particular group going to excess. And you're gonna get that in warfare. It sucks, but that's what it is.

It was SOP for all CS soldiers in SoT.

This. Find me one example of someone in the CS military being tried for killing nonhuman civilians. Just one. There doesn't even need to be a conviction, just a trial.

[Eagle]

operating procedure for CS troops everywhere. It seems more like one particular group going to excess. And you're gonna get that in warfare. It sucks, but that's what it is.

It was SOP for all CS soldiers in SoT.

This. Find me one example of someone in the CS military being tried for killing nonhuman civilians. Just one. There doesn't even need to be a conviction, just a trial.

As I said, no CS soldier is ever going to be prosecuted for it. But that doesn't mean it's SOP and that all units do it.

[Freemage]

operating procedure for CS troops everywhere. It seems more like one particular group going to excess. And you're gonna get that in warfare. It sucks, but that's what it is.

It was SOP for all CS soldiers in SoT.

This. Find me one example of someone in the CS military being tried for killing nonhuman civilians. Just one. There doesn't even need to be a conviction, just a trial.

How about summarily executed, by CS troops, instead? Because that happens in SoT. A grunts, ordered to 'mist' a concentration camp, instead mist the guy giving the order. Then he and his men lead the camp denizens of the camp out of the war zone, to safety, in a scene that is probably one of the best-written in the entire series. And yet, the soldier who vaporizes the bastard is still a mostly loyal citizen of the CS; he knows the Prosek propaganda about D-Bees is wrong, but he also knows the CS as a whole is the reason his wife and child are safe, ensconced in Chi-Town, from demonic hordes and shambling undead monstrosities. He's conflicted, but he's quite clearly at least trying to be a decent, ethical human being in a crapsack world.

[IGNG]

As I said, no CS soldier is ever going to be prosecuted for it. But that doesn't mean it's SOP and that all units do it.

Just because it isn't spelled out anywhere (and why should it be no one can read) being executed for not doing it Is official policy.

How about summarily executed, by CS troops, instead?

nope, one citizen's actions does not a countries official policy make.

[Eagle]

As I said, no CS soldier is ever going to be prosecuted for it. But that doesn't mean it's SOP and that all units do it.

Just because it isn't spelled out anywhere (and why should it be no one can read) being executed for not doing it Is official policy.

Where does it say that? I'm looking for a page number.

[IGNG]

page 10 hero's of humanity under laws of the CS "all non humans... practitioners of magic ... must be rejected and destroyed. Purged from the Domain of Man."

[Nightmask]

Murdering entire villages that have been found to harbor potentially dangerous enemies is not moral, but that's a pretty clear reference to the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam.

Its not what happend but the reaction to it. In the CS the people perpetrating the My Lai Massacre get medals for their 'dedication to the cause' and the crew of the helicopter get executed for 'aiding the enemy'. There is no follow up investigation or media coverage.

Did the 1970s court martial panel **** it up by the numbers? Yes. (I'll spare you the rant as to why)

Also I really hate the mindset of well so one else did something bad once so its fine.

So it's the equivalent of the My Lai Massacre when it's committed by a fascist state (ie, one in total control of the media)?

And I don't think Eagle was suggesting 'it's fine' just because there's historical precedence. Rather, he was pointing out that this particular bad thing is unfortunately a fairly common thing in human warfare; the concentration camps, on the other hand, are pretty unique in that respect, with only a single strong historical reference (the next closest would be the Siberian political prison camps, the re-education camps of the North Vietnamese, and of course, the U.S. internment camps for the Japanese; as horrid as all of those were, none of them matched Germany's camps, nor the "Final Solution", for unadulterated evil).

Now, the big question is, how high up the chain of command did knowledge of the CS camps go? If it's all the way to Prosek, then the case is closed. If it was a general acting in what he believed the Emperor wanted, but acting on his own authority, only, then... things get a bit muddier. (One can talk reasonably about the responsibility of the leader's rhetoric on his follower's decisions, but that still leaves open the possibility that Prosek himself would've recoiled if he'd been presented with a plan for the camps-as-such.)

HWalsh: What you have to recognize is how thorough the propaganda machine is. You say, "women and children", but the soldiers in question probably have been shown videos of seemingly innocent women and children transforming into demonic horrors and running amok. To that mindset, once the Dogboys tag a target, lethal force is justified. And so is executing a potentially treasonous soldier by summary execution.*

*: To be clear, I'm speaking here only of the mindset of the frontline grunts. The high command damn well has to know by now that there's more to it than that, and they deliberately keep that information from the grunts in order to keep them from developing sympathies for the regime's victims. But controlling information is a key part of how you get a good person to do evil things, and not even know that that's what they are doing.

Exactly.

There are several examples, in books that aren't about the Tolkeen war, of Coalition soldiers working with D-Bees and even mages. On the outskirts of civilization, sometimes you have an uneasy (and temporary) truce. The 'burbs are chock full of D-Bees. There are villages of funny-forehead aliens living in and around Coalition territory. Does the Coalition like these people? No. And no Coalition soldier is going to get in trouble for shooting a random non-human. But the Coalition doesn't have anything like the Final Solution in place.

Of course they do. They may not be marching Dbees and mages into ovens but they most definitely have as their stated goals and policies the complete extermination of all non-humans, humans that use magic, and anyone that sympathizes with them or opposes the CS's policies of erasing them from the face of the Earth. For which the only reason that they aren't doing that is because they can't neatly round them up and simply kill them when found and circumstances allow.

[HWalsh]

As I said, no CS soldier is ever going to be prosecuted for it. But that doesn't mean it's SOP and that all units do it.

Just because it isn't spelled out anywhere (and why should it be no one can read) being executed for not doing it Is official policy.

Where does it say that? I'm looking for a page number.

Heroes of Humanity makes it a law, as someone posted, on page 10.

Page 14 of SoT 2: Coalition Overkill:

At the Tolkeen front, nothing short of complete genocide is acceptable to the invading Coalition Army. This has led to extreme overkill, where CS troops fight like men possessed, towns and cities are turned into rubble, farms torched and the enemy slaughtered — even when they try to surrender or flee. Retreating enemy forces are hunted and put down like mad dogs. Worse, there is no distinction made between warrior and innocent, all nonhumans and practitioners of magic are gunned down, including women and children.

Under page 15, The Quality of Mercy:

Getting caught treating a nonhuman or practitioner of magic with kindness is a serious offense punishable by one or all of the following "official" sanctions: reprimand, loss of pay, harsh work-duty, demotion (reduction of rank and/or loss of duty) and, occasionally, dishonorable discharge.

And also on page 15:

Any soldier found "willfully" helping the enemy escape (even a child) is subject to court-martial. If found guilty, he is branded a traitor (something that will disgrace and haunt the individual's family for generations), be stripped of his rank, and either face life in prison or, more likely, public execution as a "traitor to the Coalition States and all of humankind!" However, in the field, many a soldier accused of such a traitorous act is either killed outright by the squad commander, has an "accident" ("Now, how did that fusion block get into Corporal Freedman's hover jeep?"), or get's himself caught in "friendly fire."

It also talks about, alternatively committing suicide, or allowing a squad mate to execute them to spare the paperwork and their family of the disgrace of helping a child escape being shot to death by CS weapons.

Still think the CS isn't evil?

[Eagle]

Ah, I don't have Heroes of Humanity.

And I never said it wasn't an evil empire. I just said they aren't quite Nazis.

[Nightmask]

Ah, I don't have Heroes of Humanity.

And I never said it wasn't an evil empire. I just said they aren't quite Nazis.

No, they work hard to be worse.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Given the nature of threats in the world of rifts earth, appearance can be deceiving, is that a old woman with her grandchild or something else playing the part of granny and little Lisa. It's not about right and wrong, rifts earth isn't that plainly black and white as everybody tries to make it out, let's remember in the closing days of world war 2 in Europe old men and kids were armed to fight the incoming allies troops.
Honestly you could go down the list of major players on rifts earth, beings who do some realize bad things , but to some folks the coalition is still the worse.

[HWalsh]

Given the nature of threats in the world of rifts earth, appearance can be deceiving, is that a old woman with her grandchild or something else playing the part of granny and little Lisa.

That's what people tell themselves when they know they're doing something wrong.

"I had to do that horrible thing, I didn't have a choice."

The thing is...

There is a choice.

Especially in a game world like Rifts. Did Tolkeen run around killing women and children? Nope. Does the NGR? Nope. Does Lazlo? Nope. Do the Cyber-Knights? Nope.

But they didn't have a choice. Oddly, everyone else has a choice. We're supposed to believe the CS doesn't have a choice?

Nope. The CS has a choice. Every CS soldier has a choice. They made the wrong one.

It's not about right and wrong, rifts earth isn't that plainly black and white as everybody tries to make it out, let's remember in the closing days of world war 2 in Europe old men and kids were armed to fight the incoming allies troops.

There is always a choice. It is about right and wrong. We have alignments in Rifts. There are spirits of "Good" for crying out loud.

Honestly you could go down the list of major players on rifts earth, beings who do some realize bad things , but to some folks the coalition is still the worse.

The others don't pretend to be good. The CS claims it is.

[IGNG]

Given the nature of threats in the world of rifts earth, appearance can be deceiving, is that a old woman with her grandchild or something else playing the part of granny and little Lisa. It's not about right and wrong, rifts earth isn't that plainly black and white as everybody tries to make it out, let's remember in the closing days of world war 2 in Europe old men and kids were armed to fight the incoming allies troops.

The united states executed 70 of its own soldiers for rape and/or murder in the european theater. You can't tell me that its not possible to make the states position unambiguously clear at the end of the hangman's noose if the nation cares enough.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Given the nature of threats in the world of rifts earth, appearance can be deceiving, is that a old woman with her grandchild or something else playing the part of granny and little Lisa.

That's what people tell themselves when they know they're doing something wrong.

"I had to do that horrible thing, I didn't have a choice."

The thing is...

There is a choice.

Especially in a game world like Rifts. Did Tolkeen run around killing women and children? Nope. Does the NGR? Nope. Does Lazlo? Nope. Do the Cyber-Knights? Nope.

But they didn't have a choice. Oddly, everyone else has a choice. We're supposed to believe the CS doesn't have a choice?

Nope. The CS has a choice. Every CS soldier has a choice. They made the wrong one.

It's not about right and wrong, rifts earth isn't that plainly black and white as everybody tries to make it out, let's remember in the closing days of world war 2 in Europe old men and kids were armed to fight the incoming allies troops.

There is always a choice. It is about right and wrong. We have alignments in Rifts. There are spirits of "Good" for crying out loud.

Honestly you could go down the list of major players on rifts earth, beings who do some realize bad things , but to some folks the coalition is still the worse.

The others don't pretend to be good. The CS claims it is.

Funny you bring up NGR since the are engage in a war with gargoyles, and they were basically killing baby gargoyles with their egg bombs, lazlo is engage in a war with xiticix and both of they are engage in acts of genocide against their enemies.

[HWalsh]

Funny you bring up NGR since the are engage in a war with gargoyles, and they were basically killing baby gargoyles with their egg bombs, lazlo is engage in a war with xiticix and both of they are engage in acts of genocide against their enemies.

The NGR engages in war with the Gargoyles, yes, who are aggressors. Who are in an active war. That isn't a war of Genocide, also Gargoyles are literally demons.

The Xiticix are actually in a genocidal war with all non Xiticix, but also, read Xiticix Invasion, Lazlo is actually not wanting to engage in a genocidal war. Remember they want to lead the Xiticix through a Rift so that they leave rather than fight a genocidal war.

So nope. You aren't going to make a false equivalency that says, "The CS is just as bad as anyone else."

The CS is much worse than everyone else. Heck the freaking Spluggorth are not as bad as the CS because at least the Splugs are honest about what they do.

[eliakon]

Given the nature of threats in the world of rifts earth, appearance can be deceiving, is that a old woman with her grandchild or something else playing the part of granny and little Lisa.

That's what people tell themselves when they know they're doing something wrong.

"I had to do that horrible thing, I didn't have a choice."

The thing is...

There is a choice.

Especially in a game world like Rifts. Did Tolkeen run around killing women and children? Nope. Does the NGR? Nope. Does Lazlo? Nope. Do the Cyber-Knights? Nope.

But they didn't have a choice. Oddly, everyone else has a choice. We're supposed to believe the CS doesn't have a choice?

Nope. The CS has a choice. Every CS soldier has a choice. They made the wrong one.

It's not about right and wrong, rifts earth isn't that plainly black and white as everybody tries to make it out, let's remember in the closing days of world war 2 in Europe old men and kids were armed to fight the incoming allies troops.

There is always a choice. It is about right and wrong. We have alignments in Rifts. There are spirits of "Good" for crying out loud.

Honestly you could go down the list of major players on rifts earth, beings who do some realize bad things , but to some folks the coalition is still the worse.

The others don't pretend to be good. The CS claims it is.

Funny you bring up NGR since the are engage in a war with gargoyles, and they were basically killing baby gargoyles with their egg bombs, lazlo is engage in a war with xiticix and both of they are engage in acts of genocide against their enemies.

So what we have here...
Is that the NGR is killing, one specific race of demons, in their eggs.
And Lazlo is, reluctantly and in self defense against genocidal aggression trying to exile the Xitcix or find a way to communicate with them. I mean heck, Lazlo is not willing to go flat out genocide against the bugs yet... and the bugs are 100% trying to wipe out every other life form on Earth! Talk about provocation there!

And that justifies the CS committing genocide against anything that is not 100% human (by there definition).
And that some how the CS "doesn't have a choice" even though they have the largest force of psychics on the planet...
...meaning that they have the best capability of weeding out the guilty from the innocent, the good from the evil, if they wanted to. But they choose not to and simply "kill them all".
If Lazlo is able to resist genocide against their enemies, who are trying to flat out kill them all, then the CS has less than no justification in their campaigns of genocide against people who are not doing anything to the CS other than breathing the same air.

[IGNG]

Funny you bring up NGR since the are engage in a war with gargoyles, and they were basically killing baby gargoyles with their egg bombs, lazlo is engage in a war with xiticix and both of they are engage in acts of genocide against their enemies.

And the national park service is the Nazies because they try to exterminate invasive species! See I can be hyperbolic too.

Neither the NGR nor Lazlo turned the war genocidal. Hell Lazlo still hasn't quite gone there depending on how you read the book (there are the usual poor editing of pronoun tense, not to mention that that entire Xiticix Invasion plotline seems to have been dropped) The Xiticix are so alien that meaningful communication is impossible (or at least I think that's the intent, with human or better than human IQs I don't think that the intent was that they are to stupid to hold a conversation with). The brodkill also seem to fall into this category too. You can talk to them but killing is just about all they care about.

Gargoyles clearly don't fall into that category. The gargoyle empire does care about things other than killing things. Unfortunately they aren't talking about that to the NGR. More to the point they were killing civilians long before the NGR figured out that gargoyles reproduced by laying eggs.

[Todd Yoho]

Everybody is like, "ermagherd! Rifts Nazis!" when the Coalition is REALLY the Empire of Humanity from TMNT: After the Bomb with the serial numbers filed off. Loyal anthropomorphic dogs and everything...

[Axelmania]

Walsh your timeline omits the preceding problem of Tolkeen interfering with CS investigation into Joseph 1 assassination, and also their attacks on CS forces following the unexplained death of their diplomat who the CS politely bagged and returns to them for burial.

The is a cool show called Shooter where a Russian diplomat is killed. Russia did not immediately begin attacking Americans in Russia in response to it. They allowed for.an investigation and let the American government provide an explanation.

Tolkeen basically acted like Germany in WW1 when Duke Ferdinand was assassinated... Except that here we don't even know if the diplomat was murdered or by whom.

Prosek has cynically evaluated Hitler's methodology and adapted it for political gain. He knows that the majority of DBees and magic users are no threat to humanity. He knows his policies result in the deaths of tens of thousands of not millions of innocents. Yet he persists.

The latter can be waved as "for the greater good"

The former... Where are we told.the majority are no threat or that Karl "knows" this?

[eliakon]

Walsh your timeline omits the preceding problem of Tolkeen interfering with CS investigation into Joseph 1 assassination,

That is because that didn't happen.
Tolkeen did not 'interfere' with the investigation unless you count "send troops to defend its borders from the raiders that the CS sends to murder civilians in rampages of revenge"

and also their attacks on CS forces following the unexplained death of their diplomat who the CS politely bagged and returns to them for burial.

The diplomat that the CS murdered?
Yeah, that's totally not cool

The is a cool show called Shooter where a Russian diplomat is killed. Russia did not immediately begin attacking Americans in Russia in response to it. They allowed for.an investigation and let the American government provide an explanation.

That is a nice TV plot.
In the real world murdering diplomats rather than talking to them is an act of war. Especially when you then send them back as an example.

Tolkeen basically acted like Germany in WW1 when Duke Ferdinand was assassinated... Except that here we don't even know if the diplomat was murdered or by whom.

Its pretty clear that the CS murdered the diplomat
And since the CS didn't do, or allow any investigation its even more clear.
The only people that even pretend to suggest otherwise are CS Apologists. There is nothing "unclear" about the statement that the CS returned the diplomat in a body bag. That is 100% clearly a statement that they murdered him and sent him back as a warning. Its the common usage of the phrases, and in the total lack of any text whatsoever suggesting that there was any other meaning other than the stated one its pretty clear what happened. Tolkeen tried to open diplomatic ties to the CS. The CS murders the ambassador and in a message telling them that they will never speak to Tolkeen and that they plan on murdering every man, woman and child in the kingdom.

Prosek has cynically evaluated Hitler's methodology and adapted it for political gain. He knows that the majority of DBees and magic users are no threat to humanity. He knows his policies result in the deaths of tens of thousands of not millions of innocents. Yet he persists.

The latter can be waved as "for the greater good"

The former... Where are we told.the majority are no threat or that Karl "knows" this?

There is no "Greater good" in his policies. There is no "Greater good" in murdering millions of innocents for the sake of political power. The "greater good" would require... wait for it... a good. And "more political power for the CS leadership" is not a 'good'. Especially not if you have to pay for it with millions of lives.

He knows full well that most Deebees are not threats and that magic is not inherently corrupting. He also knows that fear makes for more power and that he needs an enemy to target for his propaganda. And thus they target dee-bees, and mages. Deebees because they are 'the other' and mages because magic is something that is dangerous... to the CS leadership. It is power that can not be easily controlled, and can not be easily taken away (this is explicitly stated in the Vanguard book as the reason for the CS abandoning magic)

Its pretty blatantly obvious that Deebees are not a threat. One can simply look at the deebees there are literally centuries of observations to fall back on, which would tell a person with even a cursory examination the details.
That is, for example, what the skill Lore:D-Bee is for. Same with the Lore: Magic skill.
Both of which would tell a person that the CS stances are utterly untrue.
The premise that somehow the entire leadership of the CS is unaware of in universe facts too the point that they have completely false notions about reality is beyond belief and smacks of pure apologisim.

[Axelmania]

Eliakon you are inventing stuff. There is no evidence that Tolkeen had any rightful claim to the towns in Minnesota they blocked from the CS, or the cause of death of the diplomat.

You also have absolutely no evidence that the CS did not do an investigation or allow Tolkeen to investigate.

Tolkien's immediate response was to cease communication and assault CS forces of any sort, including any who might come to invite them to investigate or share evidence related to the death.

Regarding your "he knows full well"... Source? Show me where it says Karl holds these beliefs.

Or show me such beliefs are true to begin with? Dbees seem like an obvious threat competing for resources.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Funny you bring up NGR since the are engage in a war with gargoyles, and they were basically killing baby gargoyles with their egg bombs, lazlo is engage in a war with xiticix and both of they are engage in acts of genocide against their enemies.

The NGR engages in war with the Gargoyles, yes, who are aggressors. Who are in an active war. That isn't a war of Genocide, also Gargoyles are literally demons.

The Xiticix are actually in a genocidal war with all non Xiticix, but also, read Xiticix Invasion, Lazlo is actually not wanting to engage in a genocidal war. Remember they want to lead the Xiticix through a Rift so that they leave rather than fight a genocidal war.

So nope. You aren't going to make a false equivalency that says, "The CS is just as bad as anyone else."

The CS is much worse than everyone else. Heck the freaking Spluggorth are not as bad as the CS because at least the Splugs are honest about what they do.

Ok got it when CS does it their evil, when everybody else does it it's fine

[HWalsh]

Walsh your timeline omits the preceding problem of Tolkeen interfering with CS investigation into Joseph 1 assassination, and also their attacks on CS forces following the unexplained death of their diplomat who the CS politely bagged and returns to them for burial.

I wish you would stop roleplaying a CS supporter Axel, but if we must go through this again, then we must. It just feels weird talking about the state of the CS OOC when you only reply IC and try to use propaganda that we know isn't true.

Here we go:

No, it doesn't omit anything. Page 100-101 of Sedition explains exactly what happened with Prosek's assassination.

Quote:

As the tide begins to turn, and the enemy repelled, one of the Chairman-Elect's own aides strikes him down with a Vibro-Blade. Death is instant. The perpetrator is immediately overpowered and imprisoned. It turns out the aide had family languishing in the Chi-Town 'Burbs. When her direct appeal to the Chairman was dismissed (Prosek refusing to circumvent standard procedure and protocol), the bitter woman cut a deal with a band of dissidents operating in the 'Burbs. She is summarily tried and publicly executed.

So, we know who killed Prosek. A CS Citizen did. We know who she cut deals with, people in the 'burbs. The FoM, an evil terrorist group, who the CS believes may be involved doesn't take credit for it, even though they would have if they had done it. So no. Everyone knows what happened there. Prosek angered his own people and paid the price for it. Tolkeen had nothing to do with it.

But wait... There's more...

You claim that then Tolkeen stopped them from investigating the assassination... I think your pants are smoking a bit, because that isn't what happened...

Page 101:

Additionally, the CS Military High Command orders raids on known and suspected communities outside the CS borders who harbor or trade with practitioners of magic, D-Bees or enemies of the State.

These aren't people that are associated with the attack on Prosek. These were people the CS has no jurisdiction over who may have only traded with practitioners of magic. Note again, the CS doesn't own North America, as much as they think they do. They have no right to attack anyone outside of their borders for using magic. They are not the rulers of Earth and everyone else just their subjects.

As to "interfering" that is a load of crap and you know it. The CS at this point has already killed everyone complicit in the assassination.

Six villages in Minnesota are obliterated, and several others are raided, people interrogated and threatened, property vandalized. For the first time ever, the "Kingdom of Tolkeen" issues a warning to Chi-Town to suspend its hostilities in "their territory" or face retaliation.

So what happened here is the CS continued to attack places outside of its territory. In this case they entered Tolkeen's border and attacked six villages under Tolkeen's protection. People are interrogated, threatened, and had their stuff destroyed. Tolkeen steps up and says, "This is our land, you don't have aright to do this, get out now or we will retaliate."

They did NOT attack the CS. They issued a warning, and the CS pulled out. That is Tolkeen being REASONABLE while the CS is being unreasonable.

The is a cool show called Shooter where a Russian diplomat is killed. Russia did not immediately begin attacking Americans in Russia in response to it. They allowed for.an investigation and let the American government provide an explanation.

Cool story bro. Save we know the CS killed Tolkeen's diplomat and Tolkeen knows the CS killed its diplomat.

Tolkeen basically acted like Germany in WW1 when Duke Ferdinand was assassinated... Except that here we don't even know if the diplomat was murdered or by whom.

Bull. Tolkeen never attacked the CS. They didn't even attack the CS when the CS sacked 6 towns in its territory. You are NEVER going to pull the IC propaganda spin on us. We are PLAYERS not Characters.

The latter can be waved as "for the greater good"

The former... Where are we told.the majority are no threat or that Karl "knows" this?

D-Bees of North America. Only 25% of all D-Bees are MDC Creatures. Meaning 75% are normal SDC and pose no greater threat than any individual. Then you have to remember that a chunk of that 25% aren't even in North America and it looks bad for you my friend. Very bad.

[HWalsh]

See, here is what is going on here...

What the people on the "Defend the CS" side are doing is called a false equivalency argument... When they are being factual anyway...

For example:
Comparing the Lazlo Response to the Xiticix to the CS deciding to genocide every D-Bee and Magic User in the world.

The Xiticix are an actual threat to everyone, every D-Bee and Magic User is not.

The Xiticix cannot be communicated with and it has been explicitly stated that they will kill everyone who isn't them, this doesn't apply to every D-Bee and Magic User.

Lazlo explicitly doesn't want to have to fight a genocidal war with the Xiticix and is actually trying not to do so, the CS actually wants to kill every D-Bee and Magic User.

Instead of defending the points blanket statements are used to deflect the argument, IE: "Everyone else does it and it is okay, but the CS does it..."

Well, this is a bit of debate sleight of hand (we see this in real world politics all the time too) where they pretend that their statement is factual (Everyone else does it...) then state a conclusion based on that statement (The CS does it and everyone loses their minds). They, when backed into a corner, are trying to use vague wording to defend their point. Instead of being specific, they are using the term, "Enemies" to make what the CS is doing seem more reasonable. Forgetting that, again, it isn't a true or factual base statement.

One, mostly, because "enemies" is too broad a term. In the case of Lazlo we are talking about a species that, as a whole, presents a clear and dangerous threat to the lives of their citizens if they are left alone. Two, we have to determine if the term enemies is even mutually exclusive of a terminology. In the case of the Gargoyles or Xiticix, it is. Meaning the Gargoyles and Xiticix are at war with the NGR and Lazlo respectively and would attack them without provocation. In the case of every D-Bee and Magic User on the Planet vs the CS they are not as their blanket statement includes people who would rather have peace with, and have tried to make peace with, the CS.

Taking Tolkeen for example. We are told they tried to make peace with the CS for years and years. We are told that the CS said no, and the last time they tried it the CS executed their diplomat and sent his body back as a threat. The people apologizing for the CS are trying to use "in universe" propaganda, such as, that Tolkeen was hampering their investigation. Tolkeen just told the CS that they would retaliate if the CS kept killing civilians and destroying villages that were in their boundaries.

Another popular CS defense line is the (very false) claim that Earth is for Humans and they have the right to the entire planet and all D-Bees must be purged because they are invaders. Not only is that line of logic incredibly silly, but it also doesn't take into account the circumstances of most D-Bees. Most of them didn't come to Earth willingly, they got pulled to Earth because of the actions of... Wait for it... HUMANS!

Oh yes friends. The fact that there are D-Bees on Earth? You know who can be blamed for that one? HUMANS. You don't get to screw up, cause a cataclysm, suck peaceful aliens from their worlds, deposit them on yours, then kill them by claiming they are invaders. That is just monumentally stupid logic.

So... Let us assume, for a moment, that the CS defenders are correct. That the CS is, in fact, the representatives of all of humanity... They aren't... But let us pretend... See the CS, by claiming that, and then by blaming the D-Bees for being here, are literally blaming the children for the status of the parent... Remember most D-Bees have been here for many generations by this point and this is the only home they have ever known. The CS apologists don't care, though, they stick to the party line that they are all invaders regardless. However... If they are guilty of the sins of their parents (regardless of how not really a sin it is) then the CS is guilty of the sins of its parents... Meaning that... The CS is guilty of causing the Cataclysm and also of bringing the D-Bees to Earth... If that is the case... Then... The CS summoned Demons and destroyed humanity... Which means that the CS is actually the traitor to humanity, and since they summoned demons, they are enemies of humanity, which, under CS law means that the CS has to be destroyed and... Furthermore... Since, technically, the Human population is responsible for everything on Rifts Earth... Ultimately... Then all of humanity needs to be purged by the CS because the CS punishes the descendants for crimes committed by their ancestors.

So... Basically... What I am saying is... There really is no way to defend the CS.

They are evil by real world standards... And are evil by their own standards... So... Yeah. There you go.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

See, here is what is going on here...

What the people on the "Defend the CS" side are doing is called a false equivalency argument... When they are being factual anyway...

For example:
Comparing the Lazlo Response to the Xiticix to the CS deciding to genocide every D-Bee and Magic User in the world.

The Xiticix are an actual threat to everyone, every D-Bee and Magic User is not.

The Xiticix cannot be communicated with and it has been explicitly stated that they will kill everyone who isn't them, this doesn't apply to every D-Bee and Magic User.

Lazlo explicitly doesn't want to have to fight a genocidal war with the Xiticix and is actually trying not to do so, the CS actually wants to kill every D-Bee and Magic User.

Instead of defending the points blanket statements are used to deflect the argument, IE: "Everyone else does it and it is okay, but the CS does it..."

Well, this is a bit of debate sleight of hand (we see this in real world politics all the time too) where they pretend that their statement is factual (Everyone else does it...) then state a conclusion based on that statement (The CS does it and everyone loses their minds). They, when backed into a corner, are trying to use vague wording to defend their point. Instead of being specific, they are using the term, "Enemies" to make what the CS is doing seem more reasonable. Forgetting that, again, it isn't a true or factual base statement.

One, mostly, because "enemies" is too broad a term. In the case of Lazlo we are talking about a species that, as a whole, presents a clear and dangerous threat to the lives of their citizens if they are left alone. Two, we have to determine if the term enemies is even mutually exclusive of a terminology. In the case of the Gargoyles or Xiticix, it is. Meaning the Gargoyles and Xiticix are at war with the NGR and Lazlo respectively and would attack them without provocation. In the case of every D-Bee and Magic User on the Planet vs the CS they are not as their blanket statement includes people who would rather have peace with, and have tried to make peace with, the CS.

Taking Tolkeen for example. We are told they tried to make peace with the CS for years and years. We are told that the CS said no, and the last time they tried it the CS executed their diplomat and sent his body back as a threat. The people apologizing for the CS are trying to use "in universe" propaganda, such as, that Tolkeen was hampering their investigation. Tolkeen just told the CS that they would retaliate if the CS kept killing civilians and destroying villages that were in their boundaries.

Another popular CS defense line is the (very false) claim that Earth is for Humans and they have the right to the entire planet and all D-Bees must be purged because they are invaders. Not only is that line of logic incredibly silly, but it also doesn't take into account the circumstances of most D-Bees. Most of them didn't come to Earth willingly, they got pulled to Earth because of the actions of... Wait for it... HUMANS!

Oh yes friends. The fact that there are D-Bees on Earth? You know who can be blamed for that one? HUMANS. You don't get to screw up, cause a cataclysm, suck peaceful aliens from their worlds, deposit them on yours, then kill them by claiming they are invaders. That is just monumentally stupid logic.

So... Let us assume, for a moment, that the CS defenders are correct. That the CS is, in fact, the representatives of all of humanity... They aren't... But let us pretend... See the CS, by claiming that, and then by blaming the D-Bees for being here, are literally blaming the children for the status of the parent... Remember most D-Bees have been here for many generations by this point and this is the only home they have ever known. The CS apologists don't care, though, they stick to the party line that they are all invaders regardless. However... If they are guilty of the sins of their parents (regardless of how not really a sin it is) then the CS is guilty of the sins of its parents... Meaning that... The CS is guilty of causing the Cataclysm and also of bringing the D-Bees to Earth... If that is the case... Then... The CS summoned Demons and destroyed humanity... Which means that the CS is actually the traitor to humanity, and since they summoned demons, they are enemies of humanity, which, under CS law means that the CS has to be destroyed and... Furthermore... Since, technically, the Human population is responsible for everything on Rifts Earth... Ultimately... Then all of humanity needs to be purged by the CS because the CS punishes the descendants for crimes committed by their ancestors.

So... Basically... What I am saying is... There really is no way to defend the CS.

They are evil by real world standards... And are evil by their own standards... So... Yeah. There you go.

Very nice
Lazlo plans for the xiticix are simple
Plan A contain
Plan B genocide
Funny if the coalition wants to kill every dbee and mage, why do so many live with in the coalition states, or at times employ them?

The CS does have part of its population that is in fact are pro-dbee, while it's I think 5% could be higher or lower.
But you already made it clear you want to see the coalition knocked down a peg or two.

[Freemage]

I think one of the big issues is folks are using a sliding definition of "The CS". Does it refer to Prosek and his inner circle? The military high command? The armed forces in general? The entire population? The broader you make the term, the less likely a sweeping generalization is to apply to them.

[HWalsh]

]
Very nice
Lazlo plans for the xiticix are simple
Plan A contain
Plan B genocide
Funny if the coalition wants to kill every dbee and mage, why do so many live with in the coalition states, or at times employ them?

No "if" involved. They do.

People live in the CS because they offer protection. The world is a dangerous place. The largest threats come from people, humans and D-Bees​ alike, so people choose to turn a blind eye.

This doesn't make the CS good. It doesn't make then not Nazis either.

Other people believe the CS propaganda. The CS lies to its people. They do so to maintain control.

The CS does have part of its population that is in fact are pro-dbee, while it's I think 5% could be higher or lower.

Citation please.

But you already made it clear you want to see the coalition knocked down a peg or two.

Irrelevant. That doesn't make anything I've said untrue. Everything I've said is supported by facts. Facts don't lie.

[HWalsh]

I think one of the big issues is folks are using a sliding definition of "The CS". Does it refer to Prosek and his inner circle? The military high command? The armed forces in general? The entire population? The broader you make the term, the less likely a sweeping generalization is to apply to them.

When people refer to the CS they refer to the laws of the CS. The actions of the CS government and military. The general behavior of the population in regard to the laws.

You can't beat the argument of the CS being evil by pointing to a rare 1 or 2 good people in it.

As a sweeping generalization the CS is evil.

They have evil leaders. The average citizen supports the CS military, which is lead by evil people and carries out, as a matter of policy, evil actions. The average citizen supports a tyrannical and evil regime. So the CS is evil.

Those good people? They are ignorant. So you end up in a place where the only good people are literally too ignorant to make an informed decision.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think one of the big issues is folks are using a sliding definition of "The CS". Does it refer to Prosek and his inner circle? The military high command? The armed forces in general? The entire population? The broader you make the term, the less likely a sweeping generalization is to apply to them.

You are correct sir. they tend to lump the entire coalition states into the same "they're evil" group.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think one of the big issues is folks are using a sliding definition of "The CS". Does it refer to Prosek and his inner circle? The military high command? The armed forces in general? The entire population? The broader you make the term, the less likely a sweeping generalization is to apply to them.

When people refer to the CS they refer to the laws of the CS. The actions of the CS government and military. The general behavior of the population in regard to the laws.

You can't beat the argument of the CS being evil by pointing to a rare 1 or 2 good people in it.

As a sweeping generalization the CS is evil.

They have evil leaders. The average citizen supports the CS military, which is lead by evil people and carries out, as a matter of policy, evil actions. The average citizen supports a tyrannical and evil regime. So the CS is evil.

Those good people? They are ignorant. So you end up in a place where the only good people are literally too ignorant to make an informed decision.

Well I guess that means tolkeen was evil too, and all those good people joined up to defend that evil demon kingdom and the shadow dragons

[HWalsh]

I think one of the big issues is folks are using a sliding definition of "The CS". Does it refer to Prosek and his inner circle? The military high command? The armed forces in general? The entire population? The broader you make the term, the less likely a sweeping generalization is to apply to them.

You are correct sir. they tend to lump the entire coalition states into the same "they're evil" group.

And, those people would also, generally, be completely correct. In the CS you're either evil, or stupid.

[HWalsh]

Well I guess that means tolkeen was evil too, and all those good people joined up to defend that evil demon kingdom and the shadow dragons

Nice try, but incorrect.

That's the CS propaganda.

Tolkeen wasn't an evil Kingdom. The "Shadow Dragons" are just a spell. That and, again, all Tolkeen did was defend itself from the evil genocidal CS who were attacking them without provocation.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think one of the big issues is folks are using a sliding definition of "The CS". Does it refer to Prosek and his inner circle? The military high command? The armed forces in general? The entire population? The broader you make the term, the less likely a sweeping generalization is to apply to them.

You are correct sir. they tend to lump the entire coalition states into the same "they're evil" group.

And, those people would also, generally, be completely correct. In the CS you're either evil, or stupid.

Old one but a good one

The question it all boils down to is, "Are the CS the 'bad guys' for the most part?" The most accurate way to answer that is in the form of two answers.

1) Yes, by modern day standards of morality, right, and wrong, the Coalition States is a force devoted to blind hatred, prejudice, and fascism.
2) No, because in the context of the setting, not only is it understandable for the people of the CS be highly conservative and defensive to the point of adopting a "shoot first, hash it out later" policy, it can be easily rationalized to be essential!

Part of the problem many have with the Coalition is that they fail to truly look at the situation and times they live in, as well as the history that put them on the road they travel on today (109 PA). By modern thinking, to be so brutally militant to the point of "racial cleansing" is deplorable and certainly the act of evil men. But within the context of the setting, what they do really isn't all that unreasonable. They are the bastard children of the survivors of a horrible event that has had Humanity reaping its reprercutions for the past 300 years, including the loss of their claim to the Earth by the millions of overtly hostile and territorial demons, aliens, monsters, and would-be gods. Chi-Town and the rest of the CS did not get to where they are today by being submissive and letting these extra-dimensional creatures walk all over them. They did so by doing what Humanity does best; kicking ass and using our great intellect towards destructive means. And after 300 years, you can't just turn something like that off. It becomes ingrained in the fabric of the society that used those attributes to climb up out of the ooze. And when they did try to turn it off and experimented with things alien to Humanity, what happened? The Federation of Magic took advantage of them and invaded, guns blazing and intent on killing every last man, woman and child. Something like that would surely reinforce the teaching that to even dabble with the inhuman and supernatural leads to disaster. And besides, if you look over their so-called evil deeds, their accomplishments far outshine their misdoings. Thanks to the CS, there is a thriving economy over the entire continent, food is plentiful, and tens of millions of Humans are free to live their lives with little fear of being eaten for dinner, enslaved like cattle, or terrorized for sport. Thanks to the war machines of the CS, Humanity is not looked upon by the dragons and demons as play things to be toyed around with as they see fit, but a deadly potential foe that they should regard as, if not equals, rivals to be respected and not harassed. So go ahead and look to Lazlo and point out how Humanity there is doing O.K. for itself there. It doesn't mean a thing in the grand scheme of things. Ironically enough, it was the brutal acts of the CS that made it possible for them to even exist. For if not for the Coalition, many of their family lines would have never survived that long.

[HWalsh]

Old one but a good one

The question it all boils down to is, "Are the CS the 'bad guys' for the most part?" The most accurate way to answer that is in the form of two answers.

1) Yes, by modern day standards of morality, right, and wrong, the Coalition States is a force devoted to blind hatred, prejudice, and fascism.
2) No, because in the context of the setting, not only is it understandable for the people of the CS be highly conservative and defensive to the point of adopting a "shoot first, hash it out later" policy, it can be easily rationalized to be essential!

Part of the problem many have with the Coalition is that they fail to truly look at the situation and times they live in, as well as the history that put them on the road they travel on today (109 PA). By modern thinking, to be so brutally militant to the point of "racial cleansing" is deplorable and certainly the act of evil men. But within the context of the setting, what they do really isn't all that unreasonable. They are the bastard children of the survivors of a horrible event that has had Humanity reaping its reprercutions for the past 300 years, including the loss of their claim to the Earth by the millions of overtly hostile and territorial demons, aliens, monsters, and would-be gods. Chi-Town and the rest of the CS did not get to where they are today by being submissive and letting these extra-dimensional creatures walk all over them. They did so by doing what Humanity does best; kicking ass and using our great intellect towards destructive means. And after 300 years, you can't just turn something like that off. It becomes ingrained in the fabric of the society that used those attributes to climb up out of the ooze. And when they did try to turn it off and experimented with things alien to Humanity, what happened? The Federation of Magic took advantage of them and invaded, guns blazing and intent on killing every last man, woman and child. Something like that would surely reinforce the teaching that to even dabble with the inhuman and supernatural leads to disaster. And besides, if you look over their so-called evil deeds, their accomplishments far outshine their misdoings. Thanks to the CS, there is a thriving economy over the entire continent, food is plentiful, and tens of millions of Humans are free to live their lives with little fear of being eaten for dinner, enslaved like cattle, or terrorized for sport. Thanks to the war machines of the CS, Humanity is not looked upon by the dragons and demons as play things to be toyed around with as they see fit, but a deadly potential foe that they should regard as, if not equals, rivals to be respected and not harassed. So go ahead and look to Lazlo and point out how Humanity there is doing O.K. for itself there. It doesn't mean a thing in the grand scheme of things. Ironically enough, it was the brutal acts of the CS that made it possible for them to even exist. For if not for the Coalition, many of their family lines would have never survived that long.

The problem is that argument is also incorrect.

Here, let me pick it apart.

"2) No, because in the context of the setting, not only is it understandable for the people of the CS be highly conservative and defensive to the point of adopting a "shoot first, hash it out later" policy, it can be easily rationalized to be essential!"

Incorrect. No other groups have come to that same conclusion. Free Quebec didn't, even though they are also human supremacists. Lazlo did not. Tolkeen did not. The NGR has not. If it

"By modern thinking, to be so brutally militant to the point of "racial cleansing" is deplorable and certainly the act of evil men. But within the context of the setting, what they do really isn't all that unreasonable."

Incorrect. This calls for subjective morality to be a true fact. Subjective morality isn't a fact. It is a theory. One that actually, at least in Palladium, is 100% not a true thing. If it is evil now, then it is evil there, evil doesn't change. Evil and good are constants.

"Chi-Town and the rest of the CS did not get to where they are today by being submissive and letting these extra-dimensional creatures walk all over them."

Because having your own kingdom, outside of the CS borders, and not bothering them is totally walking all over the CS.

"The Federation of Magic took advantage of them and invaded, guns blazing and intent on killing every last man, woman and child."

Actually they didn't, though they did attack them.

"They did so by doing what Humanity does best; kicking ass and using our great intellect towards destructive means."

You mean, they found the Chi-Town library and the information the Republicans planted for them to find so they could make weapons. So, they were lucky, and had another group holding their hand.

"their accomplishments far outshine their misdoings."

Nope. The ends don't justify the means.

"tens of millions of Humans are free to live their lives with little fear of being eaten for dinner, enslaved like cattle, or terrorized for sport."

Tens of millions of humans and innocent d-bees are terrified as the CS kills them and takes their lives, they live with the fear of being murdered by the CS for the simple crime of existing.

edit - to fix an error in syntax... And to add...

Really, at this point every attempt to justify the CS feels like people are reaching... They are evil. It is okay. You can like evil people in a role playing game. Darth Vader is awesome bad guy or not. The Joker is a great villain. They don't need to be not-evil to make it okay to like them. You just have to accept that, realistically, you know they're a villain... That doesn't stop you from still rooting for the bad guy.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well if you don't want to die by the CS, get out of the areas they control, or stay and get killed, freedom of choice.

[HWalsh]

Well if you don't want to die by the CS, get out of the areas they control, or stay and get killed, freedom of choice.

Tolkeen wasn't IN an area the CS controlled. If they stayed in their borders they wouldn't be so evil. The problem is they don't.

The Campaign of Unity, for example, is to conquer and take more land.

"If you didn't want (bad thing to happen) you shouldn't (insert thing that tries to put blame on the victim)."

"If you didn't want to be the victim of genocide you should have abandoned your homes and everything you owned."

"If you didn't want to get beaten you shouldn't say things that make me mad."

Couple of other ones:
"If you didn't want to be a victim..."

"You shouldn't dress like that."
"You shouldn't speak your mind."
"You should shut up and agree with me."
"You should give me what I want."
"You shouldn't resist."

You know you can't make a statement like that without looking very evil right?

[IGNG]

Well if you don't want to die by the CS, get out of the areas they control, or stay and get killed, freedom of choice.

And if you don't want to be raped don't be where you were/wear the clothes you were wearing right?

[Freemage]

I think one of the big issues is folks are using a sliding definition of "The CS". Does it refer to Prosek and his inner circle? The military high command? The armed forces in general? The entire population? The broader you make the term, the less likely a sweeping generalization is to apply to them.

You are correct sir. they tend to lump the entire coalition states into the same "they're evil" group.

And, those people would also, generally, be completely correct. In the CS you're either evil, or stupid.

There's a difference between stupidity (a lack of intelligence) and ignorance (a lack of information); when you conflate the two, you display the latter.

Ie, it's possible to be quite intelligent, but to start from a bad premise and end up at a bad result. If you've been fed bad premises since you were a child, and denied the resources to get conflicting points of view, it's little more than miraculous to break free of that conditioning outside of very specific circumstances, wherein you are forcibly confronted by the contradictions with reality (and I mean forcibly--if there's some sort of situation that would provide an opportunity to justify your current mode of thinking (say, a single old woman in a village who happened to be a witch killed Private Listore, who saved your life not two weeks ago by taking out a Brodkil that was trying to eat your liver), then you're almost certain to take it.

And that's just human nature--not good, not evil, just human. It's used to drive evil deeds; it's quite potent in that regard. But it's important to remember that the CS actually teaches a number of positive values to the citizenry--it just conflates them with very large bits of misinformation that lead to horrific results.

[eliakon]

Well if you don't want to die by the CS, get out of the areas they control, or stay and get killed, freedom of choice.

Blaming the victim is the justification of Evil.
I am not saying you are evil, but you are explicitly making the argument there that Evil is allowed to do what it wills to anyone else and that it is their fault that they are a victim not the evil doer.
That is not true.
"Well if you didn't want me to rape you, then you should not have been out dating people and been home in the house like a good woman" is not a justification. It is simply a peek into the level of depravity of the rapist.
Same here.

[eliakon]

Eliakon you are inventing stuff. There is no evidence that Tolkeen had any rightful claim to the towns in Minnesota they blocked from the CS,

There is no such thing as "Rightful claim" to towns.
ESPECIALLY if the argument is that the CS gets to make Rightful Claims.... but no one else does.
They were in the Kingdom of Tolkeen, that makes them part of the Kingdom of Tolkeen.
The CS does not have a rightful claim to other countries.

And there was no "blocking" of anything. The book states that the CS invaded and destroyed. They were not 'investigating' anything.
So making up that the CS was investigating something and was blocked in a legitimate investigation is flat out revisionist history.

or the cause of death of the diplomat.

Um, its pretty clear what happened by the text yes.
The CS got sent an Ambasador.
The CS killed that ambassador as a message.

You also have absolutely no evidence that the CS did not do an investigation or allow Tolkeen to investigate.

That too is pretty clear. If by no other fact than its conspicuous absence in the discussion. Since if there was the slightest ambiguity about the situation then such an investigation would be of relevance to the ongoing narrative, if only for the CS propaganda side.
The complete lack of such points to the fact that the CS doesn't contest the Tolkeen version of events...

Tolkien's immediate response was to cease communication and assault CS forces of any sort, including any who might come to invite them to investigate or share evidence related to the death.

The statement was that "When Tolkeen receives their Ambassador back in a body bag, they know the time for talking is gone forever."
That is pretty telling on many levels
first off is that its "in a body bag" not a coffin or other such dignified form return (calculated insult there)
Second off is that "They knew the time for talking was gone forever" not that they were upset. Not that they felt that it was bad, but that they knew that talking was over.
And of course there is the fact that the phrase "receives their ambassador back in a body bag" is pretty clearly "the CS killed him and sent him back as a warning." Otherwise you use different phrasing.
And of course there is the fact that there is not the slightest discussion of any investigation, or any discussion of possible other killers, or even of any possibility that Tolkeen is wrong in its beliefs... which is of note since they DO discuss other investigations. And they go to pains to discuss situations where the two countries have differing interpretations of events. This event though has no such discussion and is never brought up by the CS as "we were misunderstood"... its pretty clear that the CS version of events and the Tolkeen version of events are identical. ESPECIALLY considering that Tolkeen can easily resurrect the Ambassador and just ask him what happened!

Regarding your "he knows full well"... Source? Show me where it says Karl holds these beliefs.

You mean like Sourcebook 1 page 20?
"Karl Prosek is an evil megalomaniacs. His every action is motivated by his lust for power, fame, and glory. He has manipulated the humans of the Coalition Stats for years and has laid the framework for his empire very well. With everything he needs in place, Prosek can now channel his energies toward darker aspirations: the expansion of the empire! A motivating factor will be the extermination of non-humans. Yet despite his constant human supremacist speeches, Prosek is not a dedicated supremacist. That particular emphasis is only a useful means to his ends. Fanaticism is a powerful force that he is willing to inflame for his own evil purposes. Hate and vengeance will give him the people's support to invade lands they might otherwise hesitate to attack."
Point blank, in black an white that he is not a supremacist. And that he is manipulating the supremacy and genocide for purely selfish motives.

Or show me such beliefs are true to begin with? Dbees seem like an obvious threat competing for resources.

That argument doesn't even begin to hold water sorry. You have just provided a good example of the Lebensraum argument. And oddly enough that was from the same Nazi's that Prosek adores.
And also oddly enough it held no water back then too.
Sorry, the claim that "I need to kill you and take your stuff because someday I might need it" doesn't hold up as 'moral'

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well if you don't want to die by the CS, get out of the areas they control, or stay and get killed, freedom of choice.

Tolkeen wasn't IN an area the CS controlled. If they stayed in their borders they wouldn't be so evil. The problem is they don't.

The Campaign of Unity, for example, is to conquer and take more land.

"If you didn't want (bad thing to happen) you shouldn't (insert thing that tries to put blame on the victim)."

"If you didn't want to be the victim of genocide you should have abandoned your homes and everything you owned."

"If you didn't want to get beaten you shouldn't say things that make me mad."

Couple of other ones:
"If you didn't want to be a victim..."

"You shouldn't dress like that."
"You shouldn't speak your mind."
"You should shut up and agree with me."
"You should give me what I want."
"You shouldn't resist."

You know you can't make a statement like that without looking very evil right?

Well, shot if it keeps people safe and alive....let's be bad guys then

[Natasha]

But it doesn't.

[HWalsh]

Well, shot if it keeps people safe and alive....let's be bad guys then

It DOESN'T keep people safe. The CS kills people. Human and D-Bee alike.

What I am getting from this is simple:

You admit that the CS is evil. You understand that it is impossible to defend them from an OOC view.

Am I more or less correct?

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, shot if it keeps people safe and alive....let's be bad guys then

It DOESN'T keep people safe. The CS kills people. Human and D-Bee alike.

What I am getting from this is simple:

You admit that the CS is evil. You understand that it is impossible to defend them from an OOC view.

Am I more or less correct?

Is it necessarily impossible to defend evil?

[Nekira Sudacne]

[nitpick]As you say, we have his full stat sheet writeup. Megalomania and Psycopathy are both insansities in game, he has neither[/nitpick]

[eliakon]

Well if you don't want to die by the CS, get out of the areas they control, or stay and get killed, freedom of choice.

Tolkeen wasn't IN an area the CS controlled. If they stayed in their borders they wouldn't be so evil. The problem is they don't.

The Campaign of Unity, for example, is to conquer and take more land.

"If you didn't want (bad thing to happen) you shouldn't (insert thing that tries to put blame on the victim)."

"If you didn't want to be the victim of genocide you should have abandoned your homes and everything you owned."

"If you didn't want to get beaten you shouldn't say things that make me mad."

Couple of other ones:
"If you didn't want to be a victim..."

"You shouldn't dress like that."
"You shouldn't speak your mind."
"You should shut up and agree with me."
"You should give me what I want."
"You shouldn't resist."

You know you can't make a statement like that without looking very evil right?

Well, shot if it keeps people safe and alive....let's be bad guys then

Its not keeping "people" safe and alive.
Its empowering the elite to loot and enslave on the backs of lies and genocide.
To fight wars of aggression that kill millions.
Solely for personal power.
The CS is the threat to peoples safety and life here, not their foes.

Its like trying to claim that rapists are just trying to help women by keeping them in the home where they belong...

[Killer Cyborg]

In the "Matrix" movies, is Neo a Good Guy?
Are the cops that he kills?