I am getting tired of Erin Tarn and her plot immunity and godlike presence. Whatever she does - she does it better than anyone and wherever she goes she is treated like the next comming (except in the Coalition States). She is so narrow minded when it comes to Emperor Prosek and the coalition States and refuse to try to understand the reasons why Coalition States was formed the way it was, except for being evil and a place of tyrrany and horribleness.
When she is captured, all her likeways ubercool and ubersuccessful allies just come and whisk her way out and no one gets hurt (apart from the evil and nasty persons that captured her). The fact that no one in the Coalition States know how she looks like, apart from a 30 year old picture.
She is a demigod at the very least and maybe the savior returned from heaven as a close second.
Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
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Braden Campbell
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
When we were revising Vampire Kingdoms, I tried to humanize her a bit more by submitting a new first-person introduction for the book. It was not ultimately chosen, but I wanted to portray her as a woman dealing with regrets as her life enters its autumnal season. (It was also to be the hook for adventurers - they were going to accompany her on a third and final mission into the heart of Mexico). It's been a number of years since that project, so ... here it is, cold off the what-might-have-been cutting room floor.
Recollections of Mexico
From the collected journal entries of Erin Tarn, 110 PA
BEGIN RECORDING:
I can’t sleep. I’ve been up all night thinking about Tyrone. Tyrone and his seven compatriots who marched into Mexico thirty years ago and vanished. They weren’t the first people to travel south of the Rio Grande and never be heard from again, and they certainly weren’t the last. Still, that particular group, and whatever fate might have befallen them, haunts me – because I was supposed to have gone with them, you see.
It was the winter of 80 PA. I was forty-one years old; a self-assured, confidant, middle-aged woman who had seen her fair share of the world. And so when the famed cyber-knight, Sir Tyrone of Hyannis, announced that he was assembling a party to travel into Old Mexico and prove, one way or another, whether or not the Vampire Kingdoms really existed, I joined him. I would chronicle the expedition, I told him. My contribution to the quest would be my words.
God, I can’t believe I was so arrogant. I had, what, one book to my name at the time? Humankind’s Rise from Chaos, printed seventeen years previous, had been a runaway success. The income it generated allowed me to travel where I wished, to start my collection of Pre-Rifts artefacts in earnest, even bought me this house in Lazlo. It also gained me notoriety in the Coalition States as a... what was it they called me back then… a “disseminator of dangerous, anti-humancentric, ideals.” I had faced off against Karl Prosek and his military/industrial complex and come through alright. Vampires, by comparison, would be a cake walk. Or so I thought.
We picked up additional party members as we traveled southwards, and the fact that I was the only woman in all that company was a non-issue, I’m proud to say. I could ride a horse, throw a knife, drink a bottle of whiskey, and camp out under the stars as well as any of the men. By the time we rode into Eagle Pass, there were nine of us. Myself, of course, Tyrone, four additional cyber-knights, a full conversion borg, a techno-wizard, and a free-born psi-hound named Jake. I used to ask him if he knew a cat named Kalamazoo, but after a week of him not getting the reference, I just gave up. We had chosen this particular town as our crossing point because, back in those days, it boasted the widest, most secure bridge to span the Rio Grande – a massive relic dating back to the Golden Age of Man. We took a few days to rest and resupply, and that was when I came face to face with the undead.
It was night time, and for some reason I was walking along the river bank alone. Stupid, I know, but as I’ve said, I was self-assured. A voice called my name, and I turned around, expecting to see Tyrone or Jake. Instead, a mysterious stranger stepped out of the inky gloom. He was tall and well dressed, his gaunt features obscured by a wide brimmed hat pulled down low over his face. He did not introduce himself. He simply told me that he knew why I was here, and where it was I was planning to go.
“Why should you want to do this?” he asked me. “Your travelling to the Kingdoms will only cause suffering for the people who live there.”
A chill went up my back, and I swallowed hard. “You’re telling me the Vampire Kingdoms are real?”
“There are vampires,” the stranger replied, “and there are kingdoms.” He went on to tell me then that in the south, far beyond the wild vampire hordes, lie cities. Most of them are built around a ley line or nexus point. They are populous places, but the people here are bred as slaves or food stock, work animals or cattle, the better to serve their vampiric overlords. These vampires, unlike the bestial ones we are all familiar with here along the Rio Grande, are quite cunning. They encourage the nomadic vampire tribes to continue their barbaric ways and horrible raids against the northern border in order to frighten away the curious. Meantime, the civilized vampires hide themselves away from the world. They do not invade other human lands, preferring to expand with caution and secrecy. If I was to travel there, the stranger told me, and return with proof positive that the Kingdoms exist, then the outside world would feel compelled to attack. There would be a terrifying loss of life, and even more tragic, the lives of the slave stock would be needlessly upset.
“They are happy,” he said. “Or at the very least, complacent. They live simple, unworried lives as pets, slaves, or companions, but most important, Ms. Tarn, they are protected. The lords do not kill their hosts, but nourish them. The trials of day-to-day living, the harsh struggle to survive, is something they know nothing of. Your quest will accomplish nothing of good. All it will do is upset a delicate balance that has existed for more than a hundred years. And so now, Erin, you die. ”
He lunged at me then, his fangs bared. It was only by the courageous actions of Tyrone, who appeared out of nowhere, that I survived. Afterward, we tried to convince ourselves that the story told me was nothing more than the malicious lies of a wild vampire. In our hearts, though, we both knew better. Tyrone, Jake, and the others left the next day. I stayed behind. Tyrone told the others that I had become sick with influenza and could therefore no longer continue. Only we two knew the truth: that my encounter had so terrified me that I bowed out of the expedition. Tyrone understood. He swore to me that he would return with the answers we sought. Then he, Jake, and all the others rode into Old Mexico, never to be heard from again.
They died somewhere out there. I’m certain of it. For twenty years afterwards, I tried to put that night out of my mind. I prayed for their souls, while at the same time refusing to acknowledge that I should have died with them. That was the cold truth of it, you see; my cowardice saved my life. Or maybe Fate stepped in to spare me. Either way, it made me sick and ashamed. In 101 PA, I couldn’t stand it anymore, and set off into Mexico. I would discover the truth of things, and in so doing, both assuage my guilt and let the spirits of my friends rest in peace. I studied every text I could find with regards to facing and combating the undead, consulted every available authority. I learned that running water would kill a vampire immersed in it by witnessing so first hand. I also came to understand that vampires could not bring themselves to cross a river by jumping or flying over it, although they could be transported across water by a willing humanoid provided the vampire was sealed inside a container of some sort. Likewise, vampires could cross a bridge (provided they controlled their fear) because the bridge was an extension of, and rooted into, the earth.
Holy water, that is, water blessed by a priest or shaman, would burn vampires like acid if splashed on their flesh. If poured on the ground the vampire couldn’t step over it. Certain plants such as wolfsbane, garlic, and to my surprise, aloe vera, were also of great help in warding off a vampire attack. All of this mysticism and talk of earth and water led me to wonder if vampires weren’t in fact some kind of elemental demon.
Our party was small, the better to not draw attention to ourselves. In the intervening years, the bridge at Eagle Pass had been destroyed during a ferocious battle against the undead, and so we crossed at El Paso. I thought myself prepared to face vampires, but what I wasn’t prepared for was the weather. During the daytime, the temperatures would soar to 100 degrees (37.7 Celsius), and water was scarce - which made sense as to why the vampires would thrive in this part of the world given that water was such a vulnerability to them. After a hundred miles of travel, we were already tired and suffering from mild dehydration. One of our party, a kind and gentle Mexican shaman who was, as it happened, also knowledgeable in the arts of shifting, insisted that he could rift us to where the Vampire Kingdoms were purported to lie. I should have known better than to leap through a dimensional portal, but hell, I was now in my sixties. I think I can be forgiven for wanting to take a shortcut.
There then followed an interdimensional detour, and some adventures in other lands, but the crux of the matter is this: I still hadn’t proven or disproven the existence of the Vampire Kingdoms. Mexico had beaten me. Twice. Firstly by paralyzing me with fear, and then by sapping my resolve with heat. When people describe me, they always talk about how kind and inquisitive I am, and what a gentle soul I have. What they don’t know is that I hate losing. I hate having my curiosity denied.
And I hate you, Mexico, for what you did to me and my friends.
[pause]
It was a song, Jake. A very old song from long before the Coming of the Rifts. It was about this girl named Della, and she goes travelling with a man called the Dealer, and a dog named Jake, and a cat named Kalamazoo. And at one point, Della has a fire in her eye, and the dog has a gun, and I was always reminded of those lyrics when I looked at our group.
I’m going back there. I’ll call in favours, and pull some strings. I’ll hire the best protection around. I’ve got enough life left in these old bones for one more try, and this time I will not be deterred. I will expose the Vampire Kingdoms to the world, or die trying.
END RECORDING
Recollections of Mexico
From the collected journal entries of Erin Tarn, 110 PA
BEGIN RECORDING:
I can’t sleep. I’ve been up all night thinking about Tyrone. Tyrone and his seven compatriots who marched into Mexico thirty years ago and vanished. They weren’t the first people to travel south of the Rio Grande and never be heard from again, and they certainly weren’t the last. Still, that particular group, and whatever fate might have befallen them, haunts me – because I was supposed to have gone with them, you see.
It was the winter of 80 PA. I was forty-one years old; a self-assured, confidant, middle-aged woman who had seen her fair share of the world. And so when the famed cyber-knight, Sir Tyrone of Hyannis, announced that he was assembling a party to travel into Old Mexico and prove, one way or another, whether or not the Vampire Kingdoms really existed, I joined him. I would chronicle the expedition, I told him. My contribution to the quest would be my words.
God, I can’t believe I was so arrogant. I had, what, one book to my name at the time? Humankind’s Rise from Chaos, printed seventeen years previous, had been a runaway success. The income it generated allowed me to travel where I wished, to start my collection of Pre-Rifts artefacts in earnest, even bought me this house in Lazlo. It also gained me notoriety in the Coalition States as a... what was it they called me back then… a “disseminator of dangerous, anti-humancentric, ideals.” I had faced off against Karl Prosek and his military/industrial complex and come through alright. Vampires, by comparison, would be a cake walk. Or so I thought.
We picked up additional party members as we traveled southwards, and the fact that I was the only woman in all that company was a non-issue, I’m proud to say. I could ride a horse, throw a knife, drink a bottle of whiskey, and camp out under the stars as well as any of the men. By the time we rode into Eagle Pass, there were nine of us. Myself, of course, Tyrone, four additional cyber-knights, a full conversion borg, a techno-wizard, and a free-born psi-hound named Jake. I used to ask him if he knew a cat named Kalamazoo, but after a week of him not getting the reference, I just gave up. We had chosen this particular town as our crossing point because, back in those days, it boasted the widest, most secure bridge to span the Rio Grande – a massive relic dating back to the Golden Age of Man. We took a few days to rest and resupply, and that was when I came face to face with the undead.
It was night time, and for some reason I was walking along the river bank alone. Stupid, I know, but as I’ve said, I was self-assured. A voice called my name, and I turned around, expecting to see Tyrone or Jake. Instead, a mysterious stranger stepped out of the inky gloom. He was tall and well dressed, his gaunt features obscured by a wide brimmed hat pulled down low over his face. He did not introduce himself. He simply told me that he knew why I was here, and where it was I was planning to go.
“Why should you want to do this?” he asked me. “Your travelling to the Kingdoms will only cause suffering for the people who live there.”
A chill went up my back, and I swallowed hard. “You’re telling me the Vampire Kingdoms are real?”
“There are vampires,” the stranger replied, “and there are kingdoms.” He went on to tell me then that in the south, far beyond the wild vampire hordes, lie cities. Most of them are built around a ley line or nexus point. They are populous places, but the people here are bred as slaves or food stock, work animals or cattle, the better to serve their vampiric overlords. These vampires, unlike the bestial ones we are all familiar with here along the Rio Grande, are quite cunning. They encourage the nomadic vampire tribes to continue their barbaric ways and horrible raids against the northern border in order to frighten away the curious. Meantime, the civilized vampires hide themselves away from the world. They do not invade other human lands, preferring to expand with caution and secrecy. If I was to travel there, the stranger told me, and return with proof positive that the Kingdoms exist, then the outside world would feel compelled to attack. There would be a terrifying loss of life, and even more tragic, the lives of the slave stock would be needlessly upset.
“They are happy,” he said. “Or at the very least, complacent. They live simple, unworried lives as pets, slaves, or companions, but most important, Ms. Tarn, they are protected. The lords do not kill their hosts, but nourish them. The trials of day-to-day living, the harsh struggle to survive, is something they know nothing of. Your quest will accomplish nothing of good. All it will do is upset a delicate balance that has existed for more than a hundred years. And so now, Erin, you die. ”
He lunged at me then, his fangs bared. It was only by the courageous actions of Tyrone, who appeared out of nowhere, that I survived. Afterward, we tried to convince ourselves that the story told me was nothing more than the malicious lies of a wild vampire. In our hearts, though, we both knew better. Tyrone, Jake, and the others left the next day. I stayed behind. Tyrone told the others that I had become sick with influenza and could therefore no longer continue. Only we two knew the truth: that my encounter had so terrified me that I bowed out of the expedition. Tyrone understood. He swore to me that he would return with the answers we sought. Then he, Jake, and all the others rode into Old Mexico, never to be heard from again.
They died somewhere out there. I’m certain of it. For twenty years afterwards, I tried to put that night out of my mind. I prayed for their souls, while at the same time refusing to acknowledge that I should have died with them. That was the cold truth of it, you see; my cowardice saved my life. Or maybe Fate stepped in to spare me. Either way, it made me sick and ashamed. In 101 PA, I couldn’t stand it anymore, and set off into Mexico. I would discover the truth of things, and in so doing, both assuage my guilt and let the spirits of my friends rest in peace. I studied every text I could find with regards to facing and combating the undead, consulted every available authority. I learned that running water would kill a vampire immersed in it by witnessing so first hand. I also came to understand that vampires could not bring themselves to cross a river by jumping or flying over it, although they could be transported across water by a willing humanoid provided the vampire was sealed inside a container of some sort. Likewise, vampires could cross a bridge (provided they controlled their fear) because the bridge was an extension of, and rooted into, the earth.
Holy water, that is, water blessed by a priest or shaman, would burn vampires like acid if splashed on their flesh. If poured on the ground the vampire couldn’t step over it. Certain plants such as wolfsbane, garlic, and to my surprise, aloe vera, were also of great help in warding off a vampire attack. All of this mysticism and talk of earth and water led me to wonder if vampires weren’t in fact some kind of elemental demon.
Our party was small, the better to not draw attention to ourselves. In the intervening years, the bridge at Eagle Pass had been destroyed during a ferocious battle against the undead, and so we crossed at El Paso. I thought myself prepared to face vampires, but what I wasn’t prepared for was the weather. During the daytime, the temperatures would soar to 100 degrees (37.7 Celsius), and water was scarce - which made sense as to why the vampires would thrive in this part of the world given that water was such a vulnerability to them. After a hundred miles of travel, we were already tired and suffering from mild dehydration. One of our party, a kind and gentle Mexican shaman who was, as it happened, also knowledgeable in the arts of shifting, insisted that he could rift us to where the Vampire Kingdoms were purported to lie. I should have known better than to leap through a dimensional portal, but hell, I was now in my sixties. I think I can be forgiven for wanting to take a shortcut.
There then followed an interdimensional detour, and some adventures in other lands, but the crux of the matter is this: I still hadn’t proven or disproven the existence of the Vampire Kingdoms. Mexico had beaten me. Twice. Firstly by paralyzing me with fear, and then by sapping my resolve with heat. When people describe me, they always talk about how kind and inquisitive I am, and what a gentle soul I have. What they don’t know is that I hate losing. I hate having my curiosity denied.
And I hate you, Mexico, for what you did to me and my friends.
[pause]
It was a song, Jake. A very old song from long before the Coming of the Rifts. It was about this girl named Della, and she goes travelling with a man called the Dealer, and a dog named Jake, and a cat named Kalamazoo. And at one point, Della has a fire in her eye, and the dog has a gun, and I was always reminded of those lyrics when I looked at our group.
I’m going back there. I’ll call in favours, and pull some strings. I’ll hire the best protection around. I’ve got enough life left in these old bones for one more try, and this time I will not be deterred. I will expose the Vampire Kingdoms to the world, or die trying.
END RECORDING
Braden, GMPhD
_______________________________________
_______________________________________
Braden wrote:Thundercloud Galaxy has a flock of ducks in it that can slag a Glitterboy in one melee.
If that doesn't prompt you to buy it, I don't know what else I can say.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
thanks for the share! cool stuff
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
> I hate you, Mexico
Maybe that's why it got left out? KS can't accept his goddess holding hatred towards a nation?
Maybe that's why it got left out? KS can't accept his goddess holding hatred towards a nation?
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
You're REALLY exaggerating there, especially when you accuse her of being narrow-minded regarding the CS and its leader. It is completely compatible with being open-minded to see the CS as an evil empire driven to commit genocide towards billions of sentient beings. One does not have to look and go 'oh look at this terrible thing that happened, they're totally justified in how they're acting' because they aren't. Cultivating powerful allies is also a fairly standard thing in fiction, for which they generally do rescue you when you get in trouble.
You're also ignoring or don't mind the plot immunity and godlike presence of Prosek and the CS, who's always safe from harm and whose empire never needs fear failure, or running out of resources, its enemies uniting against it, or anything else.
You're also ignoring or don't mind the plot immunity and godlike presence of Prosek and the CS, who's always safe from harm and whose empire never needs fear failure, or running out of resources, its enemies uniting against it, or anything else.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Nightmask wrote:You're REALLY exaggerating there, especially when you accuse her of being narrow-minded regarding the CS and its leader. It is completely compatible with being open-minded to see the CS as an evil empire driven to commit genocide towards billions of sentient beings. One does not have to look and go 'oh look at this terrible thing that happened, they're totally justified in how they're acting' because they aren't. Cultivating powerful allies is also a fairly standard thing in fiction, for which they generally do rescue you when you get in trouble.
You're also ignoring or don't mind the plot immunity and godlike presence of Prosek and the CS, who's always safe from harm and whose empire never needs fear failure, or running out of resources, its enemies uniting against it, or anything else.
I have writte in the past about Plot immunity of Prosek and the CS, but this thread is about Tarn for a change. Try not to derail it to be about CS, there are three or so threads about CS plot immunit/evilness already.
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SereneTsunami
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Is this the correct place to ask what you think "Plot Immunity" is? From what I've rad it is a catch-all phrase for "some things I din't like in the story".
Gandalf had Plot immunity? Did Bilbo? Did Luke Skywalker's hand have plot imm...oh, wait.
Gandalf had Plot immunity? Did Bilbo? Did Luke Skywalker's hand have plot imm...oh, wait.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
SereneTsunami wrote:Is this the correct place to ask what you think "Plot Immunity" is? From what I've rad it is a catch-all phrase for "some things I din't like in the story".
Gandalf had Plot immunity? Did Bilbo? Did Luke Skywalker's hand have plot imm...oh, wait.
Honestly, this is a fair question. My usual go-to source for this sort of semantic discussion is TV Tropes. Here's their take:
A special type of spoiler. Since this is a spoiler-fueled trope, consider this your warning; no spoiler text appears below.
Certain characters aren't going to die or move away. They can't, because if they do, the story is over. However, some writers still try to squeeze drama out of this by either:1) Killing them off and then bringing them back, or
2) Writing a cliffhanger where it seems they might be dead or teasing the departure of a love interest.
If it's very well written, it can work. If not, it turns bad for Genre Savvy fans. It's a cheap attempt to build tension for a season finale, two-part episode or a sequel. Bonus points if the character whose death they're teasing is the titular character of the show or film franchise.
Not applicable on (most) shows or films where Anyone Can Die, the exception being one of the show's central characters, like Jack Bauer on 24. Not applicable if the show is broadcasting its series finale (especially not a Grand Finale). Not applicable in a medium where Death is Cheap (like comic books). Not applicable if the work is a biography of a person who famously died in some significant manner (Malcom X, The Pride of the Yankees). Not applicable when it's done for Character Development or to collect a Plot Coupon.
Plot Immunity applies only when the fan watching or reading the story knows that a character's teased death or departure is done for cheap drama and isn't going to stick. Please list only examples of characters with whom a writer has tried to tease removal, don't just rattle off characters you think their respective stories wouldn't survive losing.
So, it might be fair to say that Jericho Holmes had "Plot Immunity"--he was written off for dead in one book, only to be given a surprise survival in another. But has Tarn ever actually been in a situation where we were led to believe she was dead, and then later revealed to have escaped?
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SereneTsunami
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
So, plot immunity is in the eye of the beholder. If John Snow dies one more time it would be "Plot Immunity". Gotcha.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
SereneTsunami wrote:So, plot immunity is in the eye of the beholder. If John Snow dies one more time it would be "Plot Immunity". Gotcha.
Um... I was echoing your request for the OP to define the term. Then I put out the TV Trope page as a baseline definition--if Dunia wants to use a different one, that would be fine--but he/she/they would need to put it forward in a non-example-based fashion in order for the conversation to be viable.
That said, yes, most trope-evaluations are at least somewhat subjective. It's almost impossible for them not to be. That doesn't make it unreasonable to use them, just to keep that fact in mind.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
I just use the same phrase I (and a lot of others here) has used to discuss the Coalition States. Strange that whenever you complain about CS having plot immunity, no one complains, but when you say that Tarn has it, sddenly you have to defend using that phrase... :wink:
Then it does not apply on Coalition States either, good to know. As the Coalition States have never been in that possition.
SereneTsunami wrote:So, it might be fair to say that Jericho Holmes had "Plot Immunity"--he was written off for dead in one book, only to be given a surprise survival in another. But has Tarn ever actually been in a situation where we were led to believe she was dead, and then later revealed to have escaped?
Then it does not apply on Coalition States either, good to know. As the Coalition States have never been in that possition.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Nightmask wrote:It is completely compatible with being open-minded to see the CS as an evil empire driven to commit genocide towards billions of sentient beings.
Only race the CS is explicitly genocidal toward with those kinds if numbers is the Xiticix. There aren't very many Slurm after all.
Lazoo are too. Also evil empire?
Maybe there are billions of demons on earth. Has the CS been stated as genocidal toward them?
Have the NGR been stated as genocidal toward gargoyles? Curious.
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Killer Cyborg
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Dunia wrote:I just use the same phrase I (and a lot of others here) has used to discuss the Coalition States. Strange that whenever you complain about CS having plot immunity, no one complains, but when you say that Tarn has it, sddenly you have to defend using that phrase...
I complain quite a bit when people gripe about "plot immunity" in Rifts, because generally they're just describing the plot.
Going by the TV Tropes standard, the only example that comes to mind that fits is Tolkeen being attacked by CS missiles in the Siege on Tolkeen, because we as readers knew that the city wasn't going to be killed off in the first attack in the first book of a six-book series.
Holmes doesn't fit, as far as I can tell, because the readers didn't have any reason to suspect that he'd survive.
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Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell
Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Braden, that was a cool story!
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Dunia wrote:I am getting tired of Erin Tarn and her plot immunity and godlike presence. Whatever she does - she does it better than anyone and wherever she goes she is treated like the next comming (except in the Coalition States). She is so narrow minded when it comes to Emperor Prosek and the coalition States and refuse to try to understand the reasons why Coalition States was formed the way it was, except for being evil and a place of tyrrany and horribleness.
When she is captured, all her likeways ubercool and ubersuccessful allies just come and whisk her way out and no one gets hurt (apart from the evil and nasty persons that captured her). The fact that no one in the Coalition States know how she looks like, apart from a 30 year old picture.
She is a demigod at the very least and maybe the savior returned from heaven as a close second.
I never felt like she had god like presence, she always to me came acrossed as a plot mechanic to explain things.
Even when I try to understand why the CS formed it does not negate the most relevant thing they are evil and a place of tyrany and horribleness.
The evil of one does not justify the evil of another.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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SycophantNagaraja
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
I never felt like she had god like presence, she always to me came acrossed as a plot mechanic to explain things.
Honestly that's why I had to double take on the opening of this thread. I thought at first it was a snarky joke against the recent CS threads that have popped up. For me the big difference is Tarn isn't used to forward a story per say. She simply records parts of history based on the narrative the writer wants to provide from a fictional first person account. Prosek and the CS however are specific plot vehicles that, when written, always seem to be up to something against someone else or kingdom building, etc. Tarn is basically that one D&D player who consistently makes bad characters so she stuck to just recording their adventuring party's misdeeds in verbose fashion. So while her Cyberknight and Dragon allies are busy laughing and attacking the darkness with magic missile she's turning it into something verbally stimulating
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
I remeber reading somewhere that the Coalition States does not know what Erin Tarn looks like, all they have to go for is a 30 year old photo or something like that.
How can this be? I honestly do not think that CS are morons. They must obviously have spies in all major kingdoms. Tarn is a city/Kingdom reknowned person in Lazlo and I bet that at least a few citizen has seen her in her old version. I dont thik it is a stretch to say that the Coalition would know what she looks like or where she lives (at least what part of Lazlo she lives in and in the last years have narrowed it down even further.
So what would be the problem to get an assassin or killer droid to get her, apart from making her a martyr. And martyrs are bad, because it is hard to kill a glorified martyr twice...
This is what I mean by her having plot armor
How can this be? I honestly do not think that CS are morons. They must obviously have spies in all major kingdoms. Tarn is a city/Kingdom reknowned person in Lazlo and I bet that at least a few citizen has seen her in her old version. I dont thik it is a stretch to say that the Coalition would know what she looks like or where she lives (at least what part of Lazlo she lives in and in the last years have narrowed it down even further.
So what would be the problem to get an assassin or killer droid to get her, apart from making her a martyr. And martyrs are bad, because it is hard to kill a glorified martyr twice...
This is what I mean by her having plot armor
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Dunia wrote:I remeber reading somewhere that the Coalition States does not know what Erin Tarn looks like, all they have to go for is a 30 year old photo or something like that.
How can this be? I honestly do not think that CS are morons. They must obviously have spies in all major kingdoms. Tarn is a city/Kingdom reknowned person in Lazlo and I bet that at least a few citizen has seen her in her old version. I dont thik it is a stretch to say that the Coalition would know what she looks like or where she lives (at least what part of Lazlo she lives in and in the last years have narrowed it down even further.
So what would be the problem to get an assassin or killer droid to get her, apart from making her a martyr. And martyrs are bad, because it is hard to kill a glorified martyr twice...
This is what I mean by her having plot armor
By "plot armor" you mean "I made up a bunch of stuff that isn't canon, but that I think should be canon, and the canon is bad for not conforming to my imagination"...?
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Then in your game DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Sheesh Kevin doesnt come to your house and take your books back if you dont do it his way.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Riftmaker wrote:Then in your game DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Sheesh Kevin doesnt come to your house and take your books back if you dont do it his way.
Sure he does. Why do you think it takes so long to get books published? Kevin spends most of his time droving around the country taking back books from people who are doing it wrong. However, just as he insists on laying out books like it is still 1983, he insists on driving that way, so no GPS or MapQuest; only physical maps and addresses written on paper.
Last edited by dreicunan on Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
There is a reason why the CS and not Tarn has plot immunity. The CS is constantly both on the brink of losing only to be even stronger than ever.
The CS is duped and damaged in the Juicer Uprising... Oh, nevermind.
The CS suffers a "devastating loss" in the Sorcerer's Revenge... LOL JK They're back in the next book three times stronger than they were.
The Minion War is so devastating! The CS must rally everything they have if they hope to... The CS has 10,000,000 combat troops vs the maybe 1.5 million demons... LOL.
The CS is duped and damaged in the Juicer Uprising... Oh, nevermind.
The CS suffers a "devastating loss" in the Sorcerer's Revenge... LOL JK They're back in the next book three times stronger than they were.
The Minion War is so devastating! The CS must rally everything they have if they hope to... The CS has 10,000,000 combat troops vs the maybe 1.5 million demons... LOL.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Yeah, but has Tarn ever saved the CS? Because the CS has unwittingly saved Tarn on multiple occasions.
Both the CS and Tarn have "plot armor" so long as the guy writing the plot (Kevin S) decides that he wants them around. Just like Harry Potter. Just like Boromir, Aragorn, Frodo, Samwise, Legolas, Gimli, Meriadoc, Peregrin, and Gandalf. Just like Darth Vader. They all live no matter what until the perosn making up the plot decides that they shouldn't. Any RPG with a multi-book metaplot is going to end up with characters who have "plot armor" for the same reasons that someone in a novel does: someone is writing it, as opposed to playing it.
Both the CS and Tarn have "plot armor" so long as the guy writing the plot (Kevin S) decides that he wants them around. Just like Harry Potter. Just like Boromir, Aragorn, Frodo, Samwise, Legolas, Gimli, Meriadoc, Peregrin, and Gandalf. Just like Darth Vader. They all live no matter what until the perosn making up the plot decides that they shouldn't. Any RPG with a multi-book metaplot is going to end up with characters who have "plot armor" for the same reasons that someone in a novel does: someone is writing it, as opposed to playing it.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
HWalsh wrote:There is a reason why the CS and not Tarn has plot immunity. The CS is constantly both on the brink of losing only to be even stronger than ever.
The CS is duped and damaged in the Juicer Uprising... Oh, nevermind.
The CS suffers a "devastating loss" in the Sorcerer's Revenge... LOL JK They're back in the next book three times stronger than they were.
The Minion War is so devastating! The CS must rally everything they have if they hope to... The CS has 10,000,000 combat troops vs the maybe 1.5 million demons... LOL.
The Coalition is a juggernaut, and the Juicer Uprising was a local event. It was messy but it was small potatoes. The war for Tolkeen could not have eneded in a Coalition "Loss", whatever form that took. Tolkeen never had a chance in a war. HoH pages 67-68 clearly show the extent that the military surge has overextended and damaged the Coalition's economy. After reading this thread I really am beginning to think that there isn't such a thing as "Plot Armor" and if there is it's definition cannot be applied to Mr. Siembieda's vision of the Coalition being the hegemon that it is. I am not in love with everything Mr. Siembieda has written, but because he is the author I feel the need to give him the benefit of the doubt. All your flip dismissals of his explainations of events that you don't like undercuts your arguments.
The Coalition has been written(as has Erin Tarn for that matter) to be a central figure in Mr. Siembieda's world, and their victories and defeats are backed up by plenty of plausable reasons. I git that you hate the Coalition and are fustrated that they win alot, but they are not accomplished with a wave of a pen, it is explained over and over in canon. These are just my opinions and not worth a whole lot, but Erin and The Coalition are not survived by a writer's laziness as you propose, but by 25 years of storytelling.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
SereneTsunami wrote:HWalsh wrote:There is a reason why the CS and not Tarn has plot immunity. The CS is constantly both on the brink of losing only to be even stronger than ever.
The CS is duped and damaged in the Juicer Uprising... Oh, nevermind.
The CS suffers a "devastating loss" in the Sorcerer's Revenge... LOL JK They're back in the next book three times stronger than they were.
The Minion War is so devastating! The CS must rally everything they have if they hope to... The CS has 10,000,000 combat troops vs the maybe 1.5 million demons... LOL.
The Coalition is a juggernaut, and the Juicer Uprising was a local event. It was messy but it was small potatoes. The war for Tolkeen could not have eneded in a Coalition "Loss", whatever form that took. Tolkeen never had a chance in a war. HoH pages 67-68 clearly show the extent that the military surge has overextended and damaged the Coalition's economy. After reading this thread I really am beginning to think that there isn't such a thing as "Plot Armor" and if there is it's definition cannot be applied to Mr. Siembieda's vision of the Coalition being the hegemon that it is. I am not in love with everything Mr. Siembieda has written, but because he is the author I feel the need to give him the benefit of the doubt. All your flip dismissals of his explainations of events that you don't like undercuts your arguments.
The Coalition has been written(as has Erin Tarn for that matter) to be a central figure in Mr. Siembieda's world, and their victories and defeats are backed up by plenty of plausable reasons. I git that you hate the Coalition and are fustrated that they win alot, but they are not accomplished with a wave of a pen, it is explained over and over in canon. These are just my opinions and not worth a whole lot, but Erin and The Coalition are not survived by a writer's laziness as you propose, but by 25 years of storytelling.
Sorry but no.
Any military that suffered losses like the CS did in the Sorcerer's Revenge would have been screwed.
The people would have been up in arms, they would have been calling for Prosek's head. Look at real military forces. One botched mission and people freak out. Something like the Sorcerer's Revenge? The public outcry would have crippled the CS.
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Just think of Tarn as the narrator for Rifts.
Some gave all.
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Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.
Love your neighbor.
Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
HWalsh wrote:The people would have been up in arms, they would have been calling for Prosek's head. Look at real military forces. One botched mission and people freak out. Something like the Sorcerer's Revenge? The public outcry would have crippled the CS.
What public outcry?
About what?
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Mack wrote:Just think of Tarn as the narrator for Rifts.
Right!?
Because that's all she really is. She doesn't DO anything significant. She's not really part of any of the plots.
She's just a vehicle to tell the real-world customers what's happening in the Rifts setting.
I've never understood the hate.
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Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
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SereneTsunami
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
HWalsh wrote:SereneTsunami wrote:HWalsh wrote:There is a reason why the CS and not Tarn has plot immunity. The CS is constantly both on the brink of losing only to be even stronger than ever.
The CS is duped and damaged in the Juicer Uprising... Oh, nevermind.
The CS suffers a "devastating loss" in the Sorcerer's Revenge... LOL JK They're back in the next book three times stronger than they were.
The Minion War is so devastating! The CS must rally everything they have if they hope to... The CS has 10,000,000 combat troops vs the maybe 1.5 million demons... LOL.
The Coalition is a juggernaut, and the Juicer Uprising was a local event. It was messy but it was small potatoes. The war for Tolkeen could not have eneded in a Coalition "Loss", whatever form that took. Tolkeen never had a chance in a war. HoH pages 67-68 clearly show the extent that the military surge has overextended and damaged the Coalition's economy. After reading this thread I really am beginning to think that there isn't such a thing as "Plot Armor" and if there is it's definition cannot be applied to Mr. Siembieda's vision of the Coalition being the hegemon that it is. I am not in love with everything Mr. Siembieda has written, but because he is the author I feel the need to give him the benefit of the doubt. All your flip dismissals of his explainations of events that you don't like undercuts your arguments.
The Coalition has been written(as has Erin Tarn for that matter) to be a central figure in Mr. Siembieda's world, and their victories and defeats are backed up by plenty of plausable reasons. I git that you hate the Coalition and are fustrated that they win alot, but they are not accomplished with a wave of a pen, it is explained over and over in canon. These are just my opinions and not worth a whole lot, but Erin and The Coalition are not survived by a writer's laziness as you propose, but by 25 years of storytelling.
Sorry but no.
Any military that suffered losses like the CS did in the Sorcerer's Revenge would have been screwed.
The people would have been up in arms, they would have been calling for Prosek's head. Look at real military forces. One botched mission and people freak out. Something like the Sorcerer's Revenge? The public outcry would have crippled the CS.
I think you are missing the fundamental power structure of the Coalition and the degree of control that the Proseks have over the dissemination of information. The Sorcerer's Revenge happend at the front lines, and not outside Chi-Town for all to see. The Proseks allow the population to see only what they want them to see.
It is usless to look at current American standards for public opinion for war measures or stomach for casualities. The Proseks do not fear anything but a bursting of the bubble of invincibility they have crafted through propaganda. That is the reason I believe that the Tolkeen war would NEVER have ended with anything short of a complete Coalition victory. The foundations of the Proseks power would simply not survive exposure to a defeat. Like I said compairing the Coalition public to current American reactions is usless. I think Erin Tarn presents the same kind of problems for the Proseks, and that is why they chase this old lady around.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
HWalsh wrote:SereneTsunami wrote:HWalsh wrote:There is a reason why the CS and not Tarn has plot immunity. The CS is constantly both on the brink of losing only to be even stronger than ever.
The CS is duped and damaged in the Juicer Uprising... Oh, nevermind.
The CS suffers a "devastating loss" in the Sorcerer's Revenge... LOL JK They're back in the next book three times stronger than they were.
The Minion War is so devastating! The CS must rally everything they have if they hope to... The CS has 10,000,000 combat troops vs the maybe 1.5 million demons... LOL.
The Coalition is a juggernaut, and the Juicer Uprising was a local event. It was messy but it was small potatoes. The war for Tolkeen could not have eneded in a Coalition "Loss", whatever form that took. Tolkeen never had a chance in a war. HoH pages 67-68 clearly show the extent that the military surge has overextended and damaged the Coalition's economy. After reading this thread I really am beginning to think that there isn't such a thing as "Plot Armor" and if there is it's definition cannot be applied to Mr. Siembieda's vision of the Coalition being the hegemon that it is. I am not in love with everything Mr. Siembieda has written, but because he is the author I feel the need to give him the benefit of the doubt. All your flip dismissals of his explainations of events that you don't like undercuts your arguments.
The Coalition has been written(as has Erin Tarn for that matter) to be a central figure in Mr. Siembieda's world, and their victories and defeats are backed up by plenty of plausable reasons. I git that you hate the Coalition and are fustrated that they win alot, but they are not accomplished with a wave of a pen, it is explained over and over in canon. These are just my opinions and not worth a whole lot, but Erin and The Coalition are not survived by a writer's laziness as you propose, but by 25 years of storytelling.
Sorry but no.
Any military that suffered losses like the CS did in the Sorcerer's Revenge would have been screwed.
The people would have been up in arms, they would have been calling for Prosek's head. Look at real military forces. One botched mission and people freak out. Something like the Sorcerer's Revenge? The public outcry would have crippled the CS.
Tolkeen suffered losses of 53%, which when looked at by percentage means that they actually suffered WORSE losses than the Coalition forces ultimately did. Yet they spent the week afterwards partying while the monsters that they unleashed feasted on the bones of the Coalition troops that were killed or captured then killed so their bones could be part of the feasting.
Also, real military forces at what point in history? US Civil War had some pretty horrific casualty rates in it and unlike the Coalition States the people of the time were reasonably well informed. After Gettysburg, many in the South felt like they'd come out ahead because the Army of Northern Virginia managed to get back South, and many in the North were ticked off at Meade for letting them do so. Neither side had a public clamoring for their respective leader's head.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
I think this topic has come up in about half a dozen threads here. An interesting note someone pointed out a while back: Erin Tarn is an anagram for "inerrant." That anagram seems to match how she has been presented as a character, and I think that's why so many people find her grating.
Personally, I prefer to think of her as a gifted political commentator (and possibly a propagandist) who's in love with her own celebrity. I wrote up an in-universe passage in which the Lazlo scholar who published "Traversing Our World" tells his side of the story to an apprentice; he concludes that Erin Tarn is a good person, but a bad scholar.
Personally, I prefer to think of her as a gifted political commentator (and possibly a propagandist) who's in love with her own celebrity. I wrote up an in-universe passage in which the Lazlo scholar who published "Traversing Our World" tells his side of the story to an apprentice; he concludes that Erin Tarn is a good person, but a bad scholar.
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Killer Cyborg wrote:HWalsh wrote:The people would have been up in arms, they would have been calling for Prosek's head. Look at real military forces. One botched mission and people freak out. Something like the Sorcerer's Revenge? The public outcry would have crippled the CS.
What public outcry?
About what?
Hundreds of thousands of Coalition Soldiers died in the Sorcerer's Revenge. More CS soldiers died than the population of most states. Those men and women had families. Did the CS hide that they got hurt? We know they didn't. They used it as propaganda.
You are telling me, you don't think, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of families wouldn't be angry? That such anger wouldn't pour out? That they would mostly blame the dbees and mages? No. Heck no. They'd direct it to the CS for sending their families to die.
On top of that, this is the SECOND time all the CS forces sent against Tolkeen were all killed in 3 years. Millions of dead CS citizens. The human mind doesn't work to focus that kind of anger at distant villains. They'd be angry at mages and dbees, but they'd be mad at the CS. Then the CS would try to send in more soldiers, and those soldiers would be in the grips of terror at being sent into that kind of a warzone that had, so far, killed virtually every single CS soldier sent there so far. Even if you have control of the media, at that point, people are going to start freaking out.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
I don't think you can necessarily predict what the attitude if these families would be. Most of the deaths are new grunt recruits who if they have family, lack citizenship and only got a chance at it due to the SoT.
The wealthy families already citizens' sons will die less often since they are the officers who can stay back.
Those that do die, they chose the army, they are patriots.
Does the CS even have selective service / draft?
The people would not hate the beloved emperor for expanding the border north to protect more innocent villages from the Xiticix and the demons summoned by Tolkeen necromancers.
Are we thinking the Riders of Ronan are gonna hate humans for going to fight Sauron?
The wealthy families already citizens' sons will die less often since they are the officers who can stay back.
Those that do die, they chose the army, they are patriots.
Does the CS even have selective service / draft?
The people would not hate the beloved emperor for expanding the border north to protect more innocent villages from the Xiticix and the demons summoned by Tolkeen necromancers.
Are we thinking the Riders of Ronan are gonna hate humans for going to fight Sauron?
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
HWalsh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:HWalsh wrote:The people would have been up in arms, they would have been calling for Prosek's head. Look at real military forces. One botched mission and people freak out. Something like the Sorcerer's Revenge? The public outcry would have crippled the CS.
What public outcry?
About what?
Hundreds of thousands of Coalition Soldiers died in the Sorcerer's Revenge. More CS soldiers died than the population of most states. Those men and women had families. Did the CS hide that they got hurt? We know they didn't. They used it as propaganda.
Hey, don't assume that I've read every passage in every book.
Be specific.
What exactly was said?
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Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
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"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell
Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Axelmania wrote:I don't think you can necessarily predict what the attitude if these families would be. Most of the deaths are new grunt recruits who if they have family, lack citizenship and only got a chance at it due to the SoT.
The wealthy families already citizens' sons will die less often since they are the officers who can stay back.
Those that do die, they chose the army, they are patriots.
Does the CS even have selective service / draft?
The people would not hate the beloved emperor for expanding the border north to protect more innocent villages from the Xiticix and the demons summoned by Tolkeen necromancers.
Are we thinking the Riders of Ronan are gonna hate humans for going to fight Sauron?
Of course we can predict how they'd act.
Humanity hadn't struggled in most of those people's lifetimes. Every major threat was super distant. They've been raised to believe that the mighty CS is invincible.
Then Chalk gets all of his forces wiped out. The CS goes, "Look! Look at what those cowards did! They ambushed us under a banner of peace! We're going to teach them a lesson!"
Then the CS forces they sent are almost all slaughtered in one night.
"Oh look! Look at what those guys did to us!"
We're talking like 20% minimum of the CS's forces. At least a million dead or missing CS soldiers. Nobody in the CS alive has ever witnessed a bloodbath like that. The CS propaganda machine teaches people fear. Fear the supernaturals!
Then over a million CS troops, two COMPLETE losses, to the CS, in 3 years, and they are still functioning? I just can't buy it. It's plot armor.
If that had happened the citizens would be demanding that heads roll. People would be mad at Prosek. People would be rioting. It would be chaos.
That is plot armor.
Erin Tarn is absolutely not possessing of plot armor.
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
HWalsh wrote:Axelmania wrote:I don't think you can necessarily predict what the attitude if these families would be. Most of the deaths are new grunt recruits who if they have family, lack citizenship and only got a chance at it due to the SoT.
The wealthy families already citizens' sons will die less often since they are the officers who can stay back.
Those that do die, they chose the army, they are patriots.
Does the CS even have selective service / draft?
The people would not hate the beloved emperor for expanding the border north to protect more innocent villages from the Xiticix and the demons summoned by Tolkeen necromancers.
Are we thinking the Riders of Ronan are gonna hate humans for going to fight Sauron?
Of course we can predict how they'd act.
Humanity hadn't struggled in most of those people's lifetimes. Every major threat was super distant. They've been raised to believe that the mighty CS is invincible.
Then Chalk gets all of his forces wiped out. The CS goes, "Look! Look at what those cowards did! They ambushed us under a banner of peace! We're going to teach them a lesson!"
Then the CS forces they sent are almost all slaughtered in one night.
"Oh look! Look at what those guys did to us!"
We're talking like 20% minimum of the CS's forces. At least a million dead or missing CS soldiers. Nobody in the CS alive has ever witnessed a bloodbath like that. The CS propaganda machine teaches people fear. Fear the supernaturals!
Then over a million CS troops, two COMPLETE losses, to the CS, in 3 years, and they are still functioning? I just can't buy it. It's plot armor.
If that had happened the citizens would be demanding that heads roll. People would be mad at Prosek. People would be rioting. It would be chaos.
That is plot armor.
That's one way that it might have gone down.
OR we're talking about people who have relatives who have been killed by demons, who are constantly deluged with stories and images of the horrors that mages and inumans are capable of, and who aren't surprised when the monsters their heroes are fighting do monstrous things to their heroes.
The CS narrative isn't that the Coalition is some invincible power that the monsters don't have a chance against--it's that humanity is fighting for their lives, and all true humans need to pull together to survive.
RUE 230 (bolded added for emphasis)
Even the zealots who don't ask questions see D-Bees and all proclaimed enemies of the States as monsters to be destroyed, and follow their orders to the letter, are not necessarily evil. At least, not fom the perspective of the Coalition people. People who believe all the horror stories fed to them from the government's propaganda machine. They are the saviors of the human race. Heroes of humanity and the last bastion of defense for humankind. Bold heroes ready to help their fellow humans and risk their own lives to save innocent people--Human people. And they do. They die in droves to save human lives and won't hesitate to risk their own lives to save an innocent farmer or child from the clutches of an evil monster or wicked D-Bee.
Erin Tarn is absolutely not possessing of plot armor.
Agreed.
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
HWalsh wrote:Axelmania wrote:I don't think you can necessarily predict what the attitude if these families would be. Most of the deaths are new grunt recruits who if they have family, lack citizenship and only got a chance at it due to the SoT.
The wealthy families already citizens' sons will die less often since they are the officers who can stay back.
Those that do die, they chose the army, they are patriots.
Does the CS even have selective service / draft?
The people would not hate the beloved emperor for expanding the border north to protect more innocent villages from the Xiticix and the demons summoned by Tolkeen necromancers.
Are we thinking the Riders of Ronan are gonna hate humans for going to fight Sauron?
Of course we can predict how they'd act.
Humanity hadn't struggled in most of those people's lifetimes. Every major threat was super distant. They've been raised to believe that the mighty CS is invincible.
Then Chalk gets all of his forces wiped out. The CS goes, "Look! Look at what those cowards did! They ambushed us under a banner of peace! We're going to teach them a lesson!"
Then the CS forces they sent are almost all slaughtered in one night.
"Oh look! Look at what those guys did to us!"
We're talking like 20% minimum of the CS's forces. At least a million dead or missing CS soldiers. Nobody in the CS alive has ever witnessed a bloodbath like that. The CS propaganda machine teaches people fear. Fear the supernaturals!
Then over a million CS troops, two COMPLETE losses, to the CS, in 3 years, and they are still functioning? I just can't buy it. It's plot armor.
If that had happened the citizens would be demanding that heads roll. People would be mad at Prosek. People would be rioting. It would be chaos.
That is plot armor.
Erin Tarn is absolutely not possessing of plot armor.
Where are you getting your figures for CS losses? Chalk had 28,000 troops, 6000 dog boys, and 3000 mercenaries (and 48k skelebots). 1,489 humans made it back. We don't know if that includes mercenaries or not, but let's use 30k as a mixed figure. During the Sorcerer's revenge, 400,000 went with Holmes. Of the other roughly 500,000 troops to 600,000 troops the majority cut and run, and most survive by retreating and regrouping, giving reinforcements from Chi-Town time to arrive. It was only those who stood and fought where they were who suffered 78% losses. So, about 100,000 from Holmes, and then if we go with a seriously generous (to you) interpretation of majority and most as barely above half, they lost 233,998 from those who stayed and fought and 149,998 from the rest, but let's round those up to 234k and 150k. The most wildly optimistic (from your perspective) interpretation of the numbers are at about 500,000. Tolkeen is cited in Final Siege as estimating Coalition losses as likely being more than 500,000 during the Sorcerers' Revenge, but that is including all of Holmes' men. So that would knock their own best guess down to about 200,000.
And let's stop ignoring that Tolkeen lost 53% of the forces committed to the attack! They threw 85% of what they had into it, so in one night they lost over 40% of their forces! Despite achieving the immediate tactical goal, it was a strategic loss for Tolkeen, because they took a greater loss by percentage of force than the CS did (and lost even more in the aftermath as people took off thinking that the Revenge had done more than delay the inevitable).
Both Tarn and the CS will be around as long as Kevin S wants them to be around (thus they both have plot armor until he decides that they don't).
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
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slade the sniper
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
HWalsh wrote:Any military that suffered losses like the CS did in the Sorcerer's Revenge would have been screwed.
The people would have been up in arms, they would have been calling for Prosek's head. Look at real military forces. One botched mission and people freak out. Something like the Sorcerer's Revenge? The public outcry would have crippled the CS.
In today's First World, that may be the case...but look at the cost of military operations in the past, such as the Eastern Front in WWII and the amount of actual pride that Russia takes in that. When you are fighting for survival and the cost of defeat is death and the destruction of your people, a few casualties are absolutely worth the cost. So, there is a big difference between losing some troops in some far away place that you can't find on a map VS losing millions of troops and civilians and thousands of miles of territory against an enemy that is absolutely a clear and present danger to you, your family, and everyone you know and is only about five miles away.
Look at Operation Market Garden, the evacuation of Dunkirk, Gettysburg, and other horrific battles and how some of them led to leadership changes (military and political) whilst others led to renewed vigor for warfare and revenge. Also, look at certain demographics who have fought continuous wars for 30, 40, 50 years or longer and still did not quit when faced against a clearly "superior" enemy and lost almost every engagement in their decades long war. I just place the Coalition in the same category of people.
Your point is valid, but only in certain circumstances.
-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
dreicunan wrote:HWalsh wrote:Axelmania wrote:I don't think you can necessarily predict what the attitude if these families would be. Most of the deaths are new grunt recruits who if they have family, lack citizenship and only got a chance at it due to the SoT.
The wealthy families already citizens' sons will die less often since they are the officers who can stay back.
Those that do die, they chose the army, they are patriots.
Does the CS even have selective service / draft?
The people would not hate the beloved emperor for expanding the border north to protect more innocent villages from the Xiticix and the demons summoned by Tolkeen necromancers.
Are we thinking the Riders of Ronan are gonna hate humans for going to fight Sauron?
Of course we can predict how they'd act.
Humanity hadn't struggled in most of those people's lifetimes. Every major threat was super distant. They've been raised to believe that the mighty CS is invincible.
Then Chalk gets all of his forces wiped out. The CS goes, "Look! Look at what those cowards did! They ambushed us under a banner of peace! We're going to teach them a lesson!"
Then the CS forces they sent are almost all slaughtered in one night.
"Oh look! Look at what those guys did to us!"
We're talking like 20% minimum of the CS's forces. At least a million dead or missing CS soldiers. Nobody in the CS alive has ever witnessed a bloodbath like that. The CS propaganda machine teaches people fear. Fear the supernaturals!
Then over a million CS troops, two COMPLETE losses, to the CS, in 3 years, and they are still functioning? I just can't buy it. It's plot armor.
If that had happened the citizens would be demanding that heads roll. People would be mad at Prosek. People would be rioting. It would be chaos.
That is plot armor.
Erin Tarn is absolutely not possessing of plot armor.
Where are you getting your figures for CS losses? Chalk had 28,000 troops, 6000 dog boys, and 3000 mercenaries (and 48k skelebots). 1,489 humans made it back. We don't know if that includes mercenaries or not, but let's use 30k as a mixed figure. During the Sorcerer's revenge, 400,000 went with Holmes. Of the other roughly 500,000 troops to 600,000 troops the majority cut and run, and most survive by retreating and regrouping, giving reinforcements from Chi-Town time to arrive. It was only those who stood and fought where they were who suffered 78% losses. So, about 100,000 from Holmes, and then if we go with a seriously generous (to you) interpretation of majority and most as barely above half, they lost 233,998 from those who stayed and fought and 149,998 from the rest, but let's round those up to 234k and 150k. The most wildly optimistic (from your perspective) interpretation of the numbers are at about 500,000. Tolkeen is cited in Final Siege as estimating Coalition losses as likely being more than 500,000 during the Sorcerers' Revenge, but that is including all of Holmes' men. So that would knock their own best guess down to about 200,000.
And let's stop ignoring that Tolkeen lost 53% of the forces committed to the attack! They threw 85% of what they had into it, so in one night they lost over 40% of their forces! Despite achieving the immediate tactical goal, it was a strategic loss for Tolkeen, because they took a greater loss by percentage of force than the CS did (and lost even more in the aftermath as people took off thinking that the Revenge had done more than delay the inevitable).
Both Tarn and the CS will be around as long as Kevin S wants them to be around (thus they both have plot armor until he decides that they don't).
Okay -
1. We know there were about 1,500,000 soldiers in the initial invasion force.
2. Holmes troops are all thought dead, so that is (as far as the CS knows) 400,000 dead.
3. Only 200,000 CS troops make it back to CS territory. They don't regroup, as you claim, certainly not quickly. As SoT states:
"If the CS were strong enough to retaliate now, Tolkeen they would fall — but it will be months before the CS can regroup and recover enough to launch a new battle plan."
So we are talking about a military that is actually, by the text, broken.
It doesn't matter if 53% of Tolkeen's defenders are gone. The CS is, at this point, crippled and cannot even regroup. If 200,000 made it back, that means a loss of 1,300,000 troops. Those losses are staggering. The Emperor knows that he can recruit and what not, but realistically? Heck no. The CS citizenry would be in a complete panic. Any military would be in a complete panic. The only part that is odd is why the Tolkeen forces didn't push on and launch a counter-offensive. With 53% of their defenders remaining, the CS military in disarray, and fear and panic, their best bet would have been a direct assault on Chi-Town.
Yes, the assault would have failed, but it would have TERRIFIED the citizens. Whoever thought up Tolkeen's battle plans weren't very well versed in psychological warfare. Of course, at the time, they also planned a simultaneous assassination of Prosek, so they may have banked on that.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
There weren't 1.5 million in the initial invasion force unless you count skelebots but not dog boys in the initial number. Sedition page 109 says nearly a million troops not counting either skelebots or dog boys. There were 4 combat armies of 225k-300k INCLUDING the dog boys. When dealing with direct loss of life impacting CS citizens, remember that 60-62% of the forces at the Tolkeen front were NOT CS Citizens. 10% are Psi-stalkers and 48-52% are volunteers from the Burbs."
Page 107, referring to the half of the troops that aren't with Holmes, says, "The MAJORITY cut and run. Of those who bunker down in Alamo-like last stands along the front line 78% perish. MOST OF THOSE WHO FALL BACK AND THEN REGROUP TO HUNKER DOWN MANAGE TO HOLD ON UNTIL REINFORCEMENTS FROM CHI-TOWN ARRIVE TO SAVE THE DAY and stop the enemy advance." (emphasis added)
So they absolutely did regroup as quickly as I said, or actually as quickly as Sorcerers' Revenge said they did. They didn't lose anywhere close to the number of troops that you claim. We can safely conclude that more than 200,000 troops made it back to Coalition territory even using the most generous estimates of losses based on those figures. As I noted above, when we include Holmes's surviving troops, the CS may have only lost about 200,000 TOTAL in the attack.
So it absolutely matters that Tolkeen lost 53% of the troops committed to the attack. Note that the CS was able to send reinforcements from Chi-Town. Tolkeen lost over 40% of ALL its forces. Chi-town's losses were only to its forces stationed at the Tolkeen front. They still had more forces tucked away to commit. There is no mystery as to why Tolkeen didn't push on. Reinforcements from Chi-Town arrived to stop the advance!
But don't take my word for it! Go actually read Sedition and Sorcerers' Revenge for yourself!
Page 107, referring to the half of the troops that aren't with Holmes, says, "The MAJORITY cut and run. Of those who bunker down in Alamo-like last stands along the front line 78% perish. MOST OF THOSE WHO FALL BACK AND THEN REGROUP TO HUNKER DOWN MANAGE TO HOLD ON UNTIL REINFORCEMENTS FROM CHI-TOWN ARRIVE TO SAVE THE DAY and stop the enemy advance." (emphasis added)
So they absolutely did regroup as quickly as I said, or actually as quickly as Sorcerers' Revenge said they did. They didn't lose anywhere close to the number of troops that you claim. We can safely conclude that more than 200,000 troops made it back to Coalition territory even using the most generous estimates of losses based on those figures. As I noted above, when we include Holmes's surviving troops, the CS may have only lost about 200,000 TOTAL in the attack.
So it absolutely matters that Tolkeen lost 53% of the troops committed to the attack. Note that the CS was able to send reinforcements from Chi-Town. Tolkeen lost over 40% of ALL its forces. Chi-town's losses were only to its forces stationed at the Tolkeen front. They still had more forces tucked away to commit. There is no mystery as to why Tolkeen didn't push on. Reinforcements from Chi-Town arrived to stop the advance!
But don't take my word for it! Go actually read Sedition and Sorcerers' Revenge for yourself!
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
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Panomas II
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Erin Tarn is just a anti-propaganda device the CS uses to draw out enemies and spread mis-information... There are no vampires in Mexico and there is no such place as Atlantis. The year is 1984. Pepsi was ramping up their soda campaign to eleven and so, Lord Coake (which by no mere coincidence is an anagram of "a coke") was put in place for Coke to get some of those valuable marketing dollars... Have none of you put together that (not going back to look) that a computer listed at $3k Rifts Bucks at 80mb just screams 80's tech... duh!
And while I certainly hope that the above gets a chuckle... It's about 98% accurate, to a campaign I once ran.
And while I certainly hope that the above gets a chuckle... It's about 98% accurate, to a campaign I once ran.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
HWalsh wrote:Of course we can predict how they'd act.
All of us can certainly attempt it, but nobody IRL can actually understand what it's like to live in Rifts Earth, only imagine it, so such predictions should not be made with too much confidence.
HWalsh wrote:Humanity hadn't struggled in most of those people's lifetimes. Every major threat was super distant. They've been raised to believe that the mighty CS is invincible.
This simply isn't true. Supernatural monsters are very much major threats (this is why people cloister in the 'Burbs around the mega cities) and it is why people are willing to volunteer to go to the front lines, so that if they survive, they and maybe some family might gain citizenship.
HWalsh wrote:Then Chalk gets all of his forces wiped out. The CS goes, "Look! Look at what those cowards did! They ambushed us under a banner of peace! We're going to teach them a lesson!"
Tolkeen had already been confronting the CS with deadly force in Minnesota for decades. Many people in the Chi-Town burbs probably had family who died in Minnesota because Tolkeen prevented the CS from lending aid.
HWalsh wrote:Then the CS forces they sent are almost all slaughtered in one night.
"Oh look! Look at what those guys did to us!"
We're talking like 20% minimum of the CS's forces. At least a million dead or missing CS soldiers.
Where's this bit about 1 million deaths in under 24 hours coming from? I thought Sorcerer's Revenge was more of a spread-out process.
HWalsh wrote:Nobody in the CS alive has ever witnessed a bloodbath like that. The CS propaganda machine teaches people fear. Fear the supernaturals!
That's where I don't agree. I believe most people in the CS have witnessed bloodbaths. In the very least through video media the CS takes of confrontation with the supernatural.
Maybe a lucky few rich elites born inside Chi-Town walls haven't personally witnessed them. But monsters can sneak inside even places like that, they just get stopped.
HWalsh wrote:Then over a million CS troops, two COMPLETE losses, to the CS, in 3 years, and they are still functioning? I just can't buy it. It's plot armor.
It's RECRUITMENT. They lowered their standards to put bodies in Dead Boy suits.
HWalsh wrote:If that had happened the citizens would be demanding that heads roll. People would be mad at Prosek. People would be rioting. It would be chaos.
You say this with unreasonable confidence. I don't think you grasp what it would be like to live on Rifts Earth.
Why would they be mad at him? He's holding the empire together. He's remaining strong despite hard losses in the fight to free Minnesota. The mages would be despised for their tactics. They can't win in a fair fight so they summon demons, pretend to be babies, etc. They have no honor.
Killer Cyborg wrote:RUE 230 (bolded added for emphasis)
Even the zealots who don't ask questions see D-Bees and all proclaimed enemies of the States as monsters to be destroyed, and follow their orders to the letter, are not necessarily evil. At least, not fom the perspective of the Coalition people. People who believe all the horror stories fed to them from the government's propaganda machine. They are the saviors of the human race. Heroes of humanity and the last bastion of defense for humankind. Bold heroes ready to help their fellow humans and risk their own lives to save innocent people--Human people. And they do. They die in droves to save human lives and won't hesitate to risk their own lives to save an innocent farmer or child from the clutches of an evil monster or wicked D-Bee.
I gotta say, these CS zealots are a lot more altruistic and brave than me, I believe I would hesitate to risk my life to save an innocent farmer or child.
slade the sniper wrote:Look at Operation Market Garden, the evacuation of Dunkirk, Gettysburg, and other horrific battles and how some of them led to leadership changes (military and political) whilst others led to renewed vigor for warfare and revenge.
Modern perspective on the Alamo: "James Bowie and William B. Travis led our family to their deaths, we hate them!"
HWalsh wrote:1. We know there were about 1,500,000 soldiers in the initial invasion force.
2. Holmes troops are all thought dead, so that is (as far as the CS knows) 400,000 dead.
3. Only 200,000 CS troops make it back to CS territory. They don't regroup, as you claim, certainly not quickly. As SoT states:
"If the CS were strong enough to retaliate now, Tolkeen they would fall — but it will be months before the CS can regroup and recover enough to launch a new battle plan."
So we are talking about a military that is actually, by the text, broken.
It doesn't matter if 53% of Tolkeen's defenders are gone. The CS is, at this point, crippled and cannot even regroup. If 200,000 made it back, that means a loss of 1,300,000 troops.
"loss" makes it sound like they died, but 200,000 returning to CS territory could just mean most of the force is still bunkered down in Minnesota.
They could still be running operations, awaiting orders, etc.
HWalsh wrote:Those losses are staggering. The Emperor knows that he can recruit and what not, but realistically? Heck no. The CS citizenry would be in a complete panic.
The citizens aren't going to get a play by play of every moment in the war, so no.
HWalsh wrote:Any military would be in a complete panic.
Not if they are remaining in communication with the Minnesotan troops. Where does it say the ones who didn't return to Chi-Town either died or broke contact?
HWalsh wrote:The only part that is odd is why the Tolkeen forces didn't push on and launch a counter-offensive. With 53% of their defenders remaining, the CS military in disarray, and fear and panic, their best bet would have been a direct assault on Chi-Town.
Not really... if they send their defenders away that makes them a sitting duck to the CS forces still in Minnesota. Plus: the CS is more than Chi-Town.
HWalsh wrote:Yes, the assault would have failed, but it would have TERRIFIED the citizens.
You mean like when the Federation of Magic invaded a century ago? Back when they didn't have Dead Boy armor or Dog Boys to assist their Psi-Stalkers?
Chi-Town would be much better prepared the second time around. Much better educated. Kids probably practice hiding under their desks like during the Cold War.
HWalsh wrote:Whoever thought up Tolkeen's battle plans weren't very well versed in psychological warfare.
I think they were, that's why they animated dead comrades and pretend to be babies.
dreicunan wrote:We can safely conclude that more than 200,000 troops made it back to Coalition territory even using the most generous estimates of losses based on those figures.
I take it literally that 200,000 went back to uncontested territory (across the border south) and that the rest stayed up there fighting. As in regrouping within the enemy territory (Minnesota)
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slade the sniper
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
SycophantNagaraja wrote:Tarn is basically that one D&D player who consistently makes bad characters so she stuck to just recording their adventuring party's misdeeds in verbose fashion. So while her Cyberknight and Dragon allies are busy laughing and attacking the darkness with magic missile she's turning it into something verbally stimulating
LOL, I absolutely agree!
Killer Cyborg wrote:Dunia wrote:I remeber reading somewhere that the Coalition States does not know what Erin Tarn looks like, all they have to go for is a 30 year old photo or something like that.
How can this be? I honestly do not think that CS are morons. They must obviously have spies in all major kingdoms. Tarn is a city/Kingdom reknowned person in Lazlo and I bet that at least a few citizen has seen her in her old version. I dont thik it is a stretch to say that the Coalition would know what she looks like or where she lives (at least what part of Lazlo she lives in and in the last years have narrowed it down even further.
So what would be the problem to get an assassin or killer droid to get her, apart from making her a martyr. And martyrs are bad, because it is hard to kill a glorified martyr twice...
This is what I mean by her having plot armor
By "plot armor" you mean "I made up a bunch of stuff that isn't canon, but that I think should be canon, and the canon is bad for not conforming to my imagination"...?
Actually, what I think Dunia is saying is something to the effect of: The CS has entirely too many resources, capabilities, expertise and motive that it strains credulity for them to be unsuccessful in killing an old lady. That is not "head canon," it is logic.
Axelmania, this is total gold:
Spoiler:
-STS
My skin is not a sin - Carlos Wallace
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box - Frederick Douglass
I am a firm believer that men with guns can solve any problem - Inscriptus
Any system in which the most populated areas have the most political power, creates an incentive for areas that want power to increase their population - Killer Cyborg
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Killer Cyborg
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
slade the sniper wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Dunia wrote:I remeber reading somewhere that the Coalition States does not know what Erin Tarn looks like, all they have to go for is a 30 year old photo or something like that.
How can this be? I honestly do not think that CS are morons. They must obviously have spies in all major kingdoms. Tarn is a city/Kingdom reknowned person in Lazlo and I bet that at least a few citizen has seen her in her old version. I dont thik it is a stretch to say that the Coalition would know what she looks like or where she lives (at least what part of Lazlo she lives in and in the last years have narrowed it down even further.
So what would be the problem to get an assassin or killer droid to get her, apart from making her a martyr. And martyrs are bad, because it is hard to kill a glorified martyr twice...
This is what I mean by her having plot armor
By "plot armor" you mean "I made up a bunch of stuff that isn't canon, but that I think should be canon, and the canon is bad for not conforming to my imagination"...?
Actually, what I think Dunia is saying is something to the effect of: The CS has entirely too many resources, capabilities, expertise and motive that it strains credulity for them to be unsuccessful in killing an old lady. That is not "head canon," it is logic.
The way you rephrased it, it's an unsupported opinion.
The way she phrased it, it hinges on how many spies the CS has, where they have them, how effective they are, and what countermeasures Tarn and/or her allies might have taken. Meaning that it hinges entirely on stuff that she's made up.
Unless these things are listed in canon somewhere...?
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)
"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell
Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell
Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
Killer Cyborg wrote:The way you rephrased it, it's an unsupported opinion.
The way she phrased it, it hinges on how many spies the CS has, where they have them, how effective they are, and what countermeasures Tarn and/or her allies might have taken. Meaning that it hinges entirely on stuff that she's made up.
Unless these things are listed in canon somewhere...?
Honestly the only reason the CS haven't tracked Tarn down is because, wait for it, she isn't near or in CS territory.
She's guarded by high level NPCs. Your average CS grunt wouldn't last half a second against her, let alone the whatever level Cyber-Knight who canonically takes on an entire CS squad in SoT 4 and wins. She often is in places like Lazlo, which the CS wouldn't be able to attack with anything short of an invasion force. If Tolkeen took four years, taking Lazlo might not even be possible.
Between Lazlo's weird star cannon and the fact that the entire city is protected by a force field and can teleport if it has to getting to Tarn would be impossible there.
Then you need to remember that the average CS grunt who sees her cannot read, and probably doesn't know what she looks like, so unless she does something to stand out around CS agents there is a good chance they aren't going to notice her. She has nothing that even resembles plot armor.
Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
HWalsh wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:The way you rephrased it, it's an unsupported opinion.
The way she phrased it, it hinges on how many spies the CS has, where they have them, how effective they are, and what countermeasures Tarn and/or her allies might have taken. Meaning that it hinges entirely on stuff that she's made up.
Unless these things are listed in canon somewhere...?
Honestly the only reason the CS haven't tracked Tarn down is because, wait for it, she isn't near or in CS territory.
She's guarded by high level NPCs. Your average CS grunt wouldn't last half a second against her, let alone the whatever level Cyber-Knight who canonically takes on an entire CS squad in SoT 4 and wins. She often is in places like Lazlo, which the CS wouldn't be able to attack with anything short of an invasion force. If Tolkeen took four years, taking Lazlo might not even be possible.
Between Lazlo's weird star cannon and the fact that the entire city is protected by a force field and can teleport if it has to getting to Tarn would be impossible there.
Then you need to remember that the average CS grunt who sees her cannot read, and probably doesn't know what she looks like, so unless she does something to stand out around CS agents there is a good chance they aren't going to notice her. She has nothing that even resembles plot armor.
She has the exact same plot armor the CS has, because Kevin S still wants her around. She'll live until he decides that she dies. Just because someone's plot armor hasn't been made as obvious in a given reader's opinion as some other character's plot armor doesn't mean that you don't have it.
Ro make it more blunt, EVERY CHARACTER in a given piece of writing has plot armor until they don't. The author is the one deciding what is going to happen. That said, I've always wanted to write a novel on which I used an RPGs rules for the dramatic scenes and forced myself to follow what the dice end up saying. THAT would be a way to write something in which characters don't have plot armor.
That said, we know that the CS has non-grunt resources to throw after taking her out. Heck, they were willing to give a Dragon Thunder axe and TW weapons out to agents to help infiltrate Tolkeen. We also know that the Vanguard have agents in Lazlo. It is completely legitimate to consider it a bit unrealistic for the CS to not even be sure what she LOOKS like if that is the case. As well as that, as per CWC page 14, she has been captured by Coalition spies, agents, or bounty hunters ELEVEN TIMES and been rescued or managed to escape each time. Three times she was just so charming that her captors released her on their own. Released someone who has been on the Coalitions top 20 public enemy list for 32 years and has been Public Enemy number one for the past 5 as of CWC. That sure sounds like "plot armor" to me!
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
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glitterboy2098
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
actually, Erin Tarn does have a version of plot armor.
she has Joker Immunity. specifically the "comic book time" and the "identified with a particular hero" aspects.. though in this case, "identified with a particular villain" is more accurate. she has become a primary vehicle for giving insight into the real nature of the CS, and as long as the CS exists she'll continue to do that.. at least until KS decides otherwise. whenever she is discussing the world, we are getting it in installments and as her reminiscing about past events. so of course she doesn't die during them.
the CS does however have a higher degree of plot armor. it appears on the surface to be "story driven invulnerability", and to be fair, a degree of that does apply. but it also has "Made of Iron" because it is so massive, nothing that isn't a comparable size can hope to do more than annoy it. note that the minion war actually actually is big enough and the CS is actually facing a major threat to its own existence as well as much of its old plot armor failing (it abused the "we have reserves" effect of its massive population and industry one too many times and is now actually going to feel the crunch.)
and to a degree, rule of empathy.. the CS is a villain we all love to hate, because they make wonderfully evil villains for storyhooks in a way that no demon or smaller human group ever could. if the CS ever seriously lost on a strategic scale, their threat level would drop and they'd be a lot less useful. which means something would have to be invented to fill the gap.
and lets face it, both are the Creator's favorite.. tarn because she is a recognizable viewpoint char, and the CS because it is such a handy antagonist.
she has Joker Immunity. specifically the "comic book time" and the "identified with a particular hero" aspects.. though in this case, "identified with a particular villain" is more accurate. she has become a primary vehicle for giving insight into the real nature of the CS, and as long as the CS exists she'll continue to do that.. at least until KS decides otherwise. whenever she is discussing the world, we are getting it in installments and as her reminiscing about past events. so of course she doesn't die during them.
the CS does however have a higher degree of plot armor. it appears on the surface to be "story driven invulnerability", and to be fair, a degree of that does apply. but it also has "Made of Iron" because it is so massive, nothing that isn't a comparable size can hope to do more than annoy it. note that the minion war actually actually is big enough and the CS is actually facing a major threat to its own existence as well as much of its old plot armor failing (it abused the "we have reserves" effect of its massive population and industry one too many times and is now actually going to feel the crunch.)
and to a degree, rule of empathy.. the CS is a villain we all love to hate, because they make wonderfully evil villains for storyhooks in a way that no demon or smaller human group ever could. if the CS ever seriously lost on a strategic scale, their threat level would drop and they'd be a lot less useful. which means something would have to be invented to fill the gap.
and lets face it, both are the Creator's favorite.. tarn because she is a recognizable viewpoint char, and the CS because it is such a handy antagonist.
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* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
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Killer Cyborg
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
glitterboy2098 wrote:actually, Erin Tarn does have a version of plot armor.
she has Joker Immunity. specifically the "comic book time" and the "identified with a particular hero" aspects.. though in this case, "identified with a particular villain" is more accurate. she has become a primary vehicle for giving insight into the real nature of the CS, and as long as the CS exists she'll continue to do that.. at least until KS decides otherwise. whenever she is discussing the world, we are getting it in installments and as her reminiscing about past events. so of course she doesn't die during them.
Joker immunity is a villain trope.
Which only works if Tarn is a villain.
Try this one:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MrExposition
the CS does however have a higher degree of plot armor. it appears on the surface to be "story driven invulnerability", and to be fair, a degree of that does apply. but it also has "Made of Iron" because it is so massive, nothing that isn't a comparable size can hope to do more than annoy it. note that the minion war actually actually is big enough and the CS is actually facing a major threat to its own existence as well as much of its old plot armor failing (it abused the "we have reserves" effect of its massive population and industry one too many times and is now actually going to feel the crunch.)
The Minion War sounds like the first time we've had any threat big enough for Plot Armor to even be a potential thing.
So I guess that whether the CS has Plot Armor depends on how it works out.
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
On the CS citizenry's reaction to the Sorcerer's Revenge:
The bulk of the troops from that particular invasion force (and most of the subsequent ones, as well) were 'Burbs recruits, whose families would get bumped up in line for citizenship applications.
Not, "became instant citizens of Chi-Town or another mega-city", just were more likely to be approved in the course of their lifetimes than their neighbors. That's key, because of the propaganda machinery at work inside the cities.
Essentially, the troops lost to the Sorcerer's Revenge were literally cannon-fodder for the CS. If they lived and won, they'd've been heroes and welcomed back, but dying on the battlefield in ignominious defeat just means that the CS has one less person they'd made a promise to. Sure, some of those families probably still did get preferential treatment--but only those who were very careful to toe the party line about how their son or daughter died as a valiant martyr for the cause against the filthy D-bee scum, and really, they couldn't be prouder.
Anyone who shows up at the gates screaming, "You sent my baby to die, you bastards!"? Yeah, they ain't getting inside the gate. "Oops, so sorry, I can't seem to find your application. This nice grunt will see you back to your home. Thank you, have a nice day."
The bulk of the troops from that particular invasion force (and most of the subsequent ones, as well) were 'Burbs recruits, whose families would get bumped up in line for citizenship applications.
Not, "became instant citizens of Chi-Town or another mega-city", just were more likely to be approved in the course of their lifetimes than their neighbors. That's key, because of the propaganda machinery at work inside the cities.
Essentially, the troops lost to the Sorcerer's Revenge were literally cannon-fodder for the CS. If they lived and won, they'd've been heroes and welcomed back, but dying on the battlefield in ignominious defeat just means that the CS has one less person they'd made a promise to. Sure, some of those families probably still did get preferential treatment--but only those who were very careful to toe the party line about how their son or daughter died as a valiant martyr for the cause against the filthy D-bee scum, and really, they couldn't be prouder.
Anyone who shows up at the gates screaming, "You sent my baby to die, you bastards!"? Yeah, they ain't getting inside the gate. "Oops, so sorry, I can't seem to find your application. This nice grunt will see you back to your home. Thank you, have a nice day."
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
dreicunan wrote: as per CWC page 14, she has been captured by Coalition spies, agents, or bounty hunters ELEVEN TIMES and been rescued or managed to escape each time. Three times she was just so charming that her captors released her on their own. Released someone who has been on the Coalitions top 20 public enemy list for 32 years and has been Public Enemy number one for the past 5 as of CWC. That sure sounds like "plot armor" to me!
It can only be plot armor if it's something that happens in part of the plot, where we think that the character is in actual danger, but they get out of it for no good in-world explanation.
A side-note or back-story isn't plot armor, because it isn't plot.
NOW, if we were reading a short story where Tarn was the protagonist, and it went into the details of that event, and there wasn't any explanation for why the guys released Tarn other than her good old-fashioned Mary Sue charms, then yeah... that's be plot armor.
Also,
From TV Tropes:
Plot Armor is when a main character's life and health are safeguarded by the fact that he's the one person who can't be removed from the story.
Tarn could easily be removed from the story of Rifts. It's not her story--it's the story of an entire world.
She's just one of the narrators.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)
"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell
Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
"Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell
Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
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Vrykolas2k
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Re: Erin Tarn's plot immunity and godlike presence
dreicunan wrote:HWalsh wrote:Axelmania wrote:I don't think you can necessarily predict what the attitude if these families would be. Most of the deaths are new grunt recruits who if they have family, lack citizenship and only got a chance at it due to the SoT.
The wealthy families already citizens' sons will die less often since they are the officers who can stay back.
Those that do die, they chose the army, they are patriots.
Does the CS even have selective service / draft?
The people would not hate the beloved emperor for expanding the border north to protect more innocent villages from the Xiticix and the demons summoned by Tolkeen necromancers.
Are we thinking the Riders of Ronan are gonna hate humans for going to fight Sauron?
Of course we can predict how they'd act.
Humanity hadn't struggled in most of those people's lifetimes. Every major threat was super distant. They've been raised to believe that the mighty CS is invincible.
Then Chalk gets all of his forces wiped out. The CS goes, "Look! Look at what those cowards did! They ambushed us under a banner of peace! We're going to teach them a lesson!"
Then the CS forces they sent are almost all slaughtered in one night.
"Oh look! Look at what those guys did to us!"
We're talking like 20% minimum of the CS's forces. At least a million dead or missing CS soldiers. Nobody in the CS alive has ever witnessed a bloodbath like that. The CS propaganda machine teaches people fear. Fear the supernaturals!
Then over a million CS troops, two COMPLETE losses, to the CS, in 3 years, and they are still functioning? I just can't buy it. It's plot armor.
If that had happened the citizens would be demanding that heads roll. People would be mad at Prosek. People would be rioting. It would be chaos.
That is plot armor.
Erin Tarn is absolutely not possessing of plot armor.
Where are you getting your figures for CS losses? Chalk had 28,000 troops, 6000 dog boys, and 3000 mercenaries (and 48k skelebots). 1,489 humans made it back. We don't know if that includes mercenaries or not, but let's use 30k as a mixed figure. During the Sorcerer's revenge, 400,000 went with Holmes. Of the other roughly 500,000 troops to 600,000 troops the majority cut and run, and most survive by retreating and regrouping, giving reinforcements from Chi-Town time to arrive. It was only those who stood and fought where they were who suffered 78% losses. So, about 100,000 from Holmes, and then if we go with a seriously generous (to you) interpretation of majority and most as barely above half, they lost 233,998 from those who stayed and fought and 149,998 from the rest, but let's round those up to 234k and 150k. The most wildly optimistic (from your perspective) interpretation of the numbers are at about 500,000. Tolkeen is cited in Final Siege as estimating Coalition losses as likely being more than 500,000 during the Sorcerers' Revenge, but that is including all of Holmes' men. So that would knock their own best guess down to about 200,000.
And let's stop ignoring that Tolkeen lost 53% of the forces committed to the attack! They threw 85% of what they had into it, so in one night they lost over 40% of their forces! Despite achieving the immediate tactical goal, it was a strategic loss for Tolkeen, because they took a greater loss by percentage of force than the CS did (and lost even more in the aftermath as people took off thinking that the Revenge had done more than delay the inevitable).
Both Tarn and the CS will be around as long as Kevin S wants them to be around (thus they both have plot armor until he decides that they don't).
Only about 100,000...
I think there are a lot of people on the boards and writing the books who have no idea how militaries actually work.
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