Which do YOU like better & why Cyberknight vs. Mystic Knight

[tsh77769]

Which do YOU like better & why Cyberknight vs. Mystic Knight?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The good mystic knights. (not necessarily the WR ones.)

Edit: If the Immune to energy weapons covers the char's armor and stuff being carried.
(i.e. the immunity question needs to be defined to a greater degree because it is what tips the balance.)

[eliakon]

Yes?
In general I like Cyberknights.
That is because I don't like the fact that the order of the Mystic Knights is a horrifying evil organization (yes, I know there is a secret splinter group that is good... but that is so small a faction and so secret that I tend to ignore it in answering because it feels like metagaming to even discuss them)

Mystic Knights are really good if your planning on going up against a foe that uses a lot of energy weapons and if your side is tech heavy and thus has a lot of e-clips to use itself

Cyber-knights are really good to use if your foe is going to be using technology, techno-wizardry, firearms, sensor goggles, power armor, robots, cyborgs, juicers, MoMs, and the like.

They tend to be 'different things for different purposes'
That said though... Cyber Knights don't have the whole "social stigma" issue of being known as one of the forces of scum and villainy through out the known world.
When the only places that accept your kind are The City of Brass and its ilk it can really cut down on your options.
It also taints any group or unit that has one in their ranks as well, just like how having a demon in a party is going to not get the general assumption "oh well, I'm sure he's one of the mythical good demons, and not an evil demon like every demon ever (as seen from the view of all but the most experienced experts on demonology...)"

[Axelmania]

I am a solid "it is you unless it says other stuff too". Still a very nice ability.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Classic Cyber Knight > Mystic Knight > NuEdgelord Cyber Knight

I like CyberKnights as they were originally represented, and I like Mystic Knights as a villain or Aberrant PC.

The NuKnights are ... eh, cancerous. Not only did the radically altered fluff turn them into trope-laden Jedi-wannabes, the crunch/game-mechanics are game-breakingly unplayable and time consuming. It can easily slow any combat to an utter crawl, particularly if there is more than one CK present. Easily one of the top 3 worst things Kevin has ever put in print.

[Ambrosius]

CKs are fairly powerful in their own right, but I like the powers of Mystic/white rose knights a bit better. Impervious to energy? Energy blasts for 5 ppe? Really good psionics? Sign me up.

Will have to agree that they're kind for different purposes.

I haven't been fortunate enough to see what the classic CK OCC looked like though.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

CKs are fairly powerful in their own right, but I like the powers of Mystic/white rose knights a bit better. Impervious to energy? Energy blasts for 5 ppe? Really good psionics? Sign me up.

Will have to agree that they're kind for different purposes.

I haven't been fortunate enough to see what the classic CK OCC looked like though.

Pretty much just a man-at-arms OCC wih a lot of W.P.s and the Psi-sword. None of the weird stacking penalties/bonuses vs tech. Nor were they presented as being these weird anti-tech but tech-using jedi-like dudes. They were just good dudes, who fought evil. Implied, actially, that they fought primarily supernatural evil...until they suddenly developed into something completely different for SoT4.

[Killer Cyborg]

I like the original CKs best.

[eliakon]

I always thought the original version was pretty boring. It was basically a generic man at arms with one special trick (the psi-sword). Moderately interesting... but certainly not note worthy or earthshakingly epic.

The new knights though... do explain why they are seen with so much fear and awe through out the land.
They don't take bribes, they don't back down, they don't show up on sensors, and guns are almost useless...
To the common bandit or soldier it would be like a being in a slasher film, and not in a good way.
Yeah, okay they are not as amazing against the supernatural...
...so what? They are just as amazing against the supernatural now as they were before. But they ALSO get to basically destroy mortal criminals in such a devastating way that the rumor of a Cyber-Knight being in the area is enough to make many tech bandits lie low or leave town.

(Having recently played an evil Cyborg in a group with a Cyber-Knight my realization of this has grown. The one person that she truly fears and is genuinely terrified of.. is the Cyber-Knight. Or as Lynette puts it "She cheats! She, she, I can't see her, I can't shoot her, I can't even really think about her right. She's just scary"... this from the same person who didn't blink when we got attacked by an adult dragon and who thought that being attacked by a group of greater demons meant "oh fun, its play time" and jumped into hand to hand with three of them.

[dreicunan]

Classic Cyber Knight > Mystic Knight > NuEdgelord Cyber Knight

I like CyberKnights as they were originally represented, and I like Mystic Knights as a villain or Aberrant PC.

The NuKnights are ... eh, cancerous. Not only did the radically altered fluff turn them into trope-laden Jedi-wannabes, the crunch/game-mechanics are game-breakingly unplayable and time consuming. It can easily slow any combat to an utter crawl, particularly if there is more than one CK present. Easily one of the top 3 worst things Kevin has ever put in print.

They were pretty clearly Jedi-wannabes from the start, actually, except with armor. The first time that people saw page 62 of the Rifts Main Book pretty much invariably resulted in someone asking something to the effect of "is that a Jedi wearing armor with a vaguely inappropriate helmet?"

That said, I agree with you completely on the rules being terrible. However, I've come to agree with Elaikon's take on the new fluff.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Mystic Knight I guess. I don't go for goody two shoes characters. I won't play one, don't even want one in the group if I can avoid it.

[dreicunan]

Mystic Knight I guess. I don't go for goody two shoes characters. I won't play one, don't even want one in the group if I can avoid it.

Given that the known examples of.cyber-knights include a group of them who are deliberately protecting vampires from hunter (for various motivations), I don't think you and I agree on the definition of "goody two shoes."

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Mystic Knight I guess. I don't go for goody two shoes characters. I won't play one, don't even want one in the group if I can avoid it.

Given that the known examples of.cyber-knights include a group of them who are deliberately protecting vampires from hunter (for various motivations), I don't think you and I agree on the definition of "goody two shoes."

Which group would that be? I vaguely recall something similar to what you're saying, but I'd have to go digging thru books to know the particulars.

Without knowing the details, I'd say that some of that group are probably insane and twisting their code to rationalize their choice to defend vampires. Others are more likely fallen/corrupted. Either way they are not following the rules that EVERY cyberknight is supposed to follow, which are laid out right in the class description.

Cyberknights are *worse* than Jedi for being goody two shoes, as a class/group. Going by the game rules, anyway. I'd be not only willing to play a Jedi in FFG's setting, there are a couple of specialisations that are very interesting and seem like they'd be a lot of fun.

Cyberknights, OTOH, are not interesting in the least bit unless it was a fallen knight (not necessarily a completely evil bastard) or one who tries to follow the code but is just a little too pragmatic and can't quite pull it off.

But that's just my opinion, and the topic asked an opinion question. I'm certain there are people that love to play them, otherwise the class would have been deleted from UE, not buffed beyond reason.

[Killer Cyborg]

I always thought the original version was pretty boring. It was basically a generic man at arms with one special trick (the psi-sword).

One of the most skilled classes in the original book, with attribute bonuses, combat bonuses, psychic powers, and cybernetics.
A cut above a normal Man at Arms, but still human enough to be human.

certainly not note worthy or earthshakingly epic.

[/quote]

Exactly.
If I wanted a supernatural powerhouse, I'd play one.
If I wanted a superhero, I'd play one.

If I wanted something earthshakingly epic, then I'd play a Godling or something.

[eliakon]

Mystic Knight I guess. I don't go for goody two shoes characters. I won't play one, don't even want one in the group if I can avoid it.

Given that the known examples of.cyber-knights include a group of them who are deliberately protecting vampires from hunter (for various motivations), I don't think you and I agree on the definition of "goody two shoes."

Which group would that be? I vaguely recall something similar to what you're saying, but I'd have to go digging thru books to know the particulars.

Without knowing the details, I'd say that some of that group are probably insane and twisting their code to rationalize their choice to defend vampires. Others are more likely fallen/corrupted. Either way they are not following the rules that EVERY cyberknight is supposed to follow, which are laid out right in the class description.

Cyberknights are *worse* than Jedi for being goody two shoes, as a class/group. Going by the game rules, anyway. I'd be not only willing to play a Jedi in FFG's setting, there are a couple of specialisations that are very interesting and seem like they'd be a lot of fun.

Cyberknights, OTOH, are not interesting in the least bit unless it was a fallen knight (not necessarily a completely evil bastard) or one who tries to follow the code but is just a little too pragmatic and can't quite pull it off.

But that's just my opinion, and the topic asked an opinion question. I'm certain there are people that love to play them, otherwise the class would have been deleted from UE, not buffed beyond reason.

I think one issue that comes up a lot is that people tend to look at the code and think "oh they have a code of honor they must be lawful stupid"
I hear all the time about people saying stuff about how the knight in their group would spoil ambushes or warn foes or stuff...
...that's not what the code SAYS though.
One of the people here (Falsor_Wing) did a fascinating examination of the code for their character Hild.
Its a lot more pragmatic than a some people tend to give credit for I think.
But what happens is that there is a tendency in gaming to play good as stupid and promote anti-heros as the 'right choice'
if you like anti-heroes, go for it.
But the actual number of goody goodies in the game is a lot lower than I think people suspect.
Most of the 'good guys' are not really all that good. They are just snobs that have differing levels of codes of conduct and wildly varying levels of latitude on how to smite what they see as evil.

[Mack]

Don't confuse the CK Code with their alignment. The two are related, but different.

[Axelmania]

Not sure why only new knights would get jedi-wannabe hassling. Didn't the originals get that before SoT? They always had the psi sword and other psi.

What exactly is jedi-ish about psi shield? Magic healing armor? Confusing computers?

Not like you could parry energy well by that time.

[The Beast]

I never saw them as jedi to begin with.

[Mack]

They were more an analog to a Paladin than Jedi.

[dreicunan]

Some did not; others saw what seemed an obvious lightsaber analog wielded by people who could feel disturbances in the force (sixth sense was an option for psi powers).

I can see people steeped in the Paladium fantasy version of a paladin associating them more with paladins, but that was definitely not the case when we showed the material to people unfamiliar with Paladium Fantasy (but who were familiar with the D&D version of a paladin).

[HarleeKnight]

The good mystic knights. (not necessarily the WR ones.)

Edit: If the Immune to energy weapons covers the char's armor and stuff being carried.
(i.e. the immunity question needs to be defined to a greater degree because it is what tips the balance.)

In Madhaven, it states that they can ride the Warbird without being affected by it's aura. I doubt they ride them into battle naked so the immunity covers their armor too, and maybe what they carry as well. It would depend on how much they carry, I guess.

[Axelmania]

Lightsabres require carrying around a handle, they hum, they burn, they spark, bounce energy blasts. They are pure tech, non-Jedi can use them.

Psi-swords need no equipment. Only psychics can use them. They are silent. They do not bounce energy.

Pretty sure if we dig into fantasy novels, Wars is not the first instance of "I can get a sword from little to no equipment".

[(SHIFTY)]

Correct me if am wrong. I thought that you could parry energy blasts with a psi sword?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The good mystic knights. (not necessarily the WR ones.)

Edit: If the Immune to energy weapons covers the char's armor and stuff being carried.
(i.e. the immunity question needs to be defined to a greater degree because it is what tips the balance.)

In Madhaven, it states that they can ride the Warbird without being affected by it's aura. I doubt they ride them into battle naked so the immunity covers their armor too, and maybe what they carry as well. It would depend on how much they carry, I guess.

While this is something that a GM could base a ruling on, it is not in itself text specifically clarifying meaning of the original text.

Yes, it would take specific text to quell any arguments. And they would have to make said Text to appear in ether another published book or in a Official Q&A in the rifter. Because they have already sold Too Many FoM and FoMr and MH books for a shadow update be effective.

[dreicunan]

The good mystic knights. (not necessarily the WR ones.)

Edit: If the Immune to energy weapons covers the char's armor and stuff being carried.
(i.e. the immunity question needs to be defined to a greater degree because it is what tips the balance.)

In Madhaven, it states that they can ride the Warbird without being affected by it's aura. I doubt they ride them into battle naked so the immunity covers their armor too, and maybe what they carry as well. It would depend on how much they carry, I guess.

While this is something that a GM could base a ruling on, it is not in itself text specifically clarifying meaning of the original text.

Yes, it would take specific text to quell any arguments. And they would have to make said Text to appear in ether another published book or in a Official Q&A in the rifter. Because they have already sold Too Many FoM and FoMr and MH books for a shadow update be effective.

Most people would assume that it requires specific text to clarify that the original intent of the text is to force you to be naked before the ability kicks in. That said, if Palladium felt the need to clarify something, they could put the answer on a billboard (or a pyramid, for that matter) outside their offices. They're the holders of the rights and get to decide what is canonical and where it appears. So if they choose to do a shadow update, that would clearly be official as well.

[drewkitty ~..~]

To be effective or not to be effective......that is why I put the word effective in there.

Not going to be suckered into a "what is canon?" argument.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

It works just like the spell, Impervious to Energy.

Unless someone has a compelling reason why it wouldnt work like the existing game mechanic with which it shares a name.

[HarleeKnight]

It works just like the spell, Impervious to Energy.

Unless someone has a compelling reason why it wouldnt work like the existing game mechanic with which it shares a name.

Except the spell itself does not clarify whether it works on worn armor or not.

The good mystic knights. (not necessarily the WR ones.)

Edit: If the Immune to energy weapons covers the char's armor and stuff being carried.
(i.e. the immunity question needs to be defined to a greater degree because it is what tips the balance.)

In Madhaven, it states that they can ride the Warbird without being affected by it's aura. I doubt they ride them into battle naked so the immunity covers their armor too, and maybe what they carry as well. It would depend on how much they carry, I guess.

While this is something that a GM could base a ruling on, it is not in itself text specifically clarifying meaning of the original text.

Yes, it would take specific text to quell any arguments. And they would have to make said Text to appear in ether another published book or in a Official Q&A in the rifter. Because they have already sold Too Many FoM and FoMr and MH books for a shadow update be effective.

So because it doesn't state that they wear armor while flying we have to assume that they are naked until told otherwise by Palladium?

[Proseksword]

I'm okay with Cyber-Knights receiving a buff, but the anti-tech focus seems really out of place for a force that prior to Tolkeen was never a major Coalition adversary and mostly fought supernatural monsters. As others have pointed out, the way penalties are applied to opponents in a very inconsistent and situational way makes combat with them a real hassle. Seriously considering house-ruling Zen Combat to grant only the bonuses the CK receives themselves but make them apply to all opponents.

[tsh77769]

I also do not like the anti-tech thing.

A few ideas that I think would be better...Putting more "cyber" into them either by giving them more cybernetics or going borg or doing something to expand upon the idea that the cyberarmor becomes a living part of them. Alternatively making them have various forms of machine bonding, maybe like the malroven, or even just making the Sierra Hotel pilots.

Going a different direction that is less radical by far, ditch the anti-tech zen thing and replace it with a Ninja's and Superspies style martial art.

Just my 2 cents.

tsh77769

[Axelmania]

Correct me if am wrong. I thought that you could parry energy blasts with a psi sword?

Yes but not bounce them. Indestructibke weapon, just stops them.

It works just like the spell, Impervious to Energy.

Unless someone has a compelling reason why it wouldnt work like the existing game mechanic with which it shares a name.

Except the spell itself does not clarify whether it works on worn armor or not.

The good mystic knights. (not necessarily the WR ones.)

Edit: If the Immune to energy weapons covers the char's armor and stuff being carried.
(i.e. the immunity question needs to be defined to a greater degree because it is what tips the balance.)

In Madhaven, it states that they can ride the Warbird without being affected by it's aura. I doubt they ride them into battle naked so the immunity covers their armor too, and maybe what they carry as well. It would depend on how much they carry, I guess.

While this is something that a GM could base a ruling on, it is not in itself text specifically clarifying meaning of the original text.

Yes, it would take specific text to quell any arguments. And they would have to make said Text to appear in ether another published book or in a Official Q&A in the rifter. Because they have already sold Too Many FoM and FoMr and MH books for a shadow update be effective.

So because it doesn't state that they wear armor while flying we have to assume that they are naked until told otherwise by Palladium?

Or they simply wear TW armor with Impervious to Energy built into it, which explicitly protects the armor in that case, unlike the spell.

Impervious to Fire protects wearer and armor. ItE does not so you must pick one or the other as the target.

You could cast Impervious to Energy on a door you didn't want someone to laser down, unless I an missing something to the contrary.

[flatline]

The RMB Cyberknight is my favorite of the three. Solid skills and abilities, but nothing game breaking. Fits well in most campaigns, even high powered campaigns even though they are not high powered characters.

The Mystic Knight has the better abilities but doesn't do much well outside of combat. Very little depth here. Nice to have one in the group sometimes, but I'd let someone else play it.

The RUE Cyberknight is terrible. They could have upped the power of the CK without giving powers that are strangely at odds with the original RMB concept.

--flatline

[eliakon]

I also do not like the anti-tech thing.

A few ideas that I think would be better...Putting more "cyber" into them either by giving them more cybernetics or going borg or doing something to expand upon the idea that the cyberarmor becomes a living part of them. Alternatively making them have various forms of machine bonding, maybe like the malroven, or even just making the Sierra Hotel pilots.

Going a different direction that is less radical by far, ditch the anti-tech zen thing and replace it with a Ninja's and Superspies style martial art.

Just my 2 cents.

tsh77769

Now see I saw the whole "tech thing"(zen combat) as putting the cyber into them.
They basically merge with/become one with technology in a very metaphysical sense and then like a judo master use the foes momentum errrr technology against them. That's pretty darn 'cyber' to me. I mean really, how much more man/machine interface can you get than merging of a person and their spirit... and the concept of technology.

I can see having allowed cyber-knights to get bionics with out loosing their psi (and I have allowed that as a house rule before) but that is just me, and it could be rather easily abused.
On the other hand not rejecting their humanity for machinery also fits with their code well so I can see why it wasn't done.
*shrugs*

[Killer Cyborg]

I also do not like the anti-tech thing.

A few ideas that I think would be better...Putting more "cyber" into them either by giving them more cybernetics or going borg or doing something to expand upon the idea that the cyberarmor becomes a living part of them. Alternatively making them have various forms of machine bonding, maybe like the malroven, or even just making the Sierra Hotel pilots.

Going a different direction that is less radical by far, ditch the anti-tech zen thing and replace it with a Ninja's and Superspies style martial art.

Just my 2 cents.

tsh77769

Now see I saw the whole "tech thing"(zen combat) as putting the cyber into them.
They basically merge with/become one with technology in a very metaphysical sense and then like a judo master use the foes momentum errrr technology against them. That's pretty darn 'cyber' to me. I mean really, how much more man/machine interface can you get than merging of a person and their spirit... and the concept of technology.

Sure, it's like how silver bullets merge with werewolves, showing how "were" silver is.
Which is why we call it the were-metal.

I can see having allowed cyber-knights to get bionics with out loosing their psi (and I have allowed that as a house rule before) but that is just me, and it could be rather easily abused.

It's not just you; that's the way it should have been done, and it's how I've house-ruled an alternate version of CKs instead of their Zen letting them dodge stuff.
That would have made them more cyber.

[Killer Cyborg]

The RMB Cyberknight is my favorite of the three. Solid skills and abilities, but nothing game breaking. Fits well in most campaigns, even high powered campaigns even though they are not high powered characters.

The Mystic Knight has the better abilities but doesn't do much well outside of combat. Very little depth here. Nice to have one in the group sometimes, but I'd let someone else play it.

The RUE Cyberknight is terrible. They could have upped the power of the CK without giving powers that are strangely at odds with the original RMB concept.

--flatline

Agreed.

[eliakon]

I also do not like the anti-tech thing.

A few ideas that I think would be better...Putting more "cyber" into them either by giving them more cybernetics or going borg or doing something to expand upon the idea that the cyberarmor becomes a living part of them. Alternatively making them have various forms of machine bonding, maybe like the malroven, or even just making the Sierra Hotel pilots.

Going a different direction that is less radical by far, ditch the anti-tech zen thing and replace it with a Ninja's and Superspies style martial art.

Just my 2 cents.

tsh77769

Now see I saw the whole "tech thing"(zen combat) as putting the cyber into them.
They basically merge with/become one with technology in a very metaphysical sense and then like a judo master use the foes momentum errrr technology against them. That's pretty darn 'cyber' to me. I mean really, how much more man/machine interface can you get than merging of a person and their spirit... and the concept of technology.

Sure, it's like how silver bullets merge with werewolves, showing how "were" silver is.
Which is why we call it the were-metal.

I don't see it as being in any way at all similar to silver and werewolves at all though.
Like I said "cyber" is linking man and machine.
They become linked to all of machinery intuitively and can then use that link in interesting and novel ways.
Its sort of like how an elemental fusionist uses their link to the elemental forces in novel ways. Doesn't mean that they are anti-elemental or anti-magic, or that they are some how not really 'elemental' and should be called something else...
...just that they are approaching the elemental thing from outside the normal box is all.
*shrugs*
I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
I just figured I would explain my reasoning for why I am not a member of team "New Cyber-knights are dumb"
I just see them as being different than the usual is all.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
I just figured I would explain my reasoning for why I am not a member of team "New Cyber-knights are dumb"
I just see them as being different than the usual is all.

I'm going to address this first, because I think context is important.
I don't expect you to agree with me either--if your point of view was similar enough to mine in order to reverse easily on this issue, then you likely wouldn't have that point of view in the first place.
I'm just explaining my reasoning for why I am a member of team "New Cyber-Knights are dumb."
We don't have to agree in order to get some kind of understanding of each other's point of view.

I don't see it as being in any way at all similar to silver and werewolves at all though.
Like I said "cyber" is linking man and machine.

Right; I get that.
But in this case, we have Zen combat powers that let man avoid machine.
To me, that's the opposite of a link.
And yes, I understand that the tech-avoiding powers are based in some kind of mystic control over machines... but only in the sense that interference is a kind of control.

I don't consider it to be cyber because:
a) The control is very specific, limited, and oppositional.
They can't use their powers to hack a computer, pilot a vehicle, or fire a weapon; they can only use their powers to detect and avoid technology, akin to a magic spell that makes them invisible to machines.
Which brings us to B:
b) The control is not mechanical in nature.
The limited and oppositional effect might still be something that I could think of as being cyber IF it was an effect created by cybernetic implants of some kind. That's within the scope of normal use of the term "cyber."
But using Zen super powers? Not so much.
Even if their Zen super powers gave them Telemechanics, I wouldn't consider that to be a "cyber" power because it's origin is NOT the physical melding of man and machine--it's a psychic power, something possibly arguably "cyber" in effect, but not in origin.
"Cyber" generally means "relating to or characteristic of the culture of computers, information technology, and virtual reality," and psychic powers are not any of those things by nature.
Neither is Zen.

[Axelmania]

I am rather interested in the mysterious faction of TW who upgraded their armor. More on them please.

[dreicunan]

After reading this thread over again, I think that the next time I run a campaign I'll replace the whole zen combat thing with a variant of Karmic Power from HU2E but unable to affect others, only the bonuses to themselves and straight die rolls for opponents' strike parry and dodge against the cyberknight.

[Killer Cyborg]

After reading this thread over again, I think that the next time I run a campaign I'll replace the whole zen combat thing with a variant of Karmic Power from HU2E but unable to affect others, only the bonuses to themselves and straight die rolls for opponents' strike parry and dodge against the cyberknight.

That’d be a cool way to do things.

[Axelmania]

So a watered down version of that Manhunter OCC?

[rem1093]

I am rather interested in the mysterious faction of TW who upgraded their armor. More on them please.

We run them as part of the same group that created the anti-monster. Or at least learned from them, since they both seam to be created the same way.
This is actually how I got the cyborg back into the knights. Up until level 4 they can get implants, up to that of a partial borg, that change like the armor. But only if the implant are installed though the same ritual as the armor.

[Blue_Lion]

The good mystic knights. (not necessarily the WR ones.)

Edit: If the Immune to energy weapons covers the char's armor and stuff being carried.
(i.e. the immunity question needs to be defined to a greater degree because it is what tips the balance.)

In Madhaven, it states that they can ride the Warbird without being affected by it's aura. I doubt they ride them into battle naked so the immunity covers their armor too, and maybe what they carry as well. It would depend on how much they carry, I guess.

While this is something that a GM could base a ruling on, it is not in itself text specifically clarifying meaning of the original text.

Yes, it would take specific text to quell any arguments. And they would have to make said Text to appear in ether another published book or in a Official Q&A in the rifter. Because they have already sold Too Many FoM and FoMr and MH books for a shadow update be effective.

Most people would assume that it requires specific text to clarify that the original intent of the text is to force you to be naked before the ability kicks in. That said, if Palladium felt the need to clarify something, they could put the answer on a billboard (or a pyramid, for that matter) outside their offices. They're the holders of the rights and get to decide what is canonical and where it appears. So if they choose to do a shadow update, that would clearly be official as well.

Nope that is just one loudly speaking side on it. It is the whole does magic/power defense have to say what it protect or what it does not. there are examples both way. Most groups I know/played with just assumed that it protected the armor, first time I saw some one claim it did not was on this web site.

To me the it only protects the knight when he is naked seams about people applying their idea of balance and claiming it is the original intent.

[Voodoolaw]

The two classes to impact me flipping through the RMB the first time I saw it (along with Vamp Kingdoms) were the Psi-Stalker and CK. I am firmly on the side of team CK on this and have always had a thing for paladin-types. Zen combat put me off just a little and I prefer the originals but either version gets my vote over the mystic knight. Allowing the mystics as PCs and then providing the obligatory rogue good guys just smacked of the super special, powerful, Drizzt style PC that wasn't going to be so special once the third one shows up in the party. I guess the nice thing about Rifts is you can play the uber-stuff when the game and GM allows. I like to play characters with some flare but that can still be easily challenged. That relies on GM fiat in any case though. Just give me struggle and a sense of accomplishment - I my PC to make it to the big bad all beat up, without any shoes, and pistol taped to my back.

And maybe a sliiiightly quicker psi-sword damage progression, but no class is perfect ;D