The Tragedy of Lord Coake, The Hobo King

[SereneTsunami]

Something has been bothering me for a while and it has been hard to put into words.

I have noticed that many of Mr. Siembieda's hero archetypes, like Cyber-Knights and Tundra Rangers, are wandering do-gooders who defend villages and hunt evil in the vast wilderness of North America. To my mind this is a short-sighted and futile effort. The real problem, IMO, is that it is also cowardly. Allow me to explain.

For example, Celia the Cyber-Knight can travel in a "Circuit" of villages show up a weekend every other month and dispense a little justice and get some free chow. In the mean time all her other villages are without her services. How often does she arrive at one of her villages to find it burnt to the ground with Brodkil droppings everywhere? I'm guessing it's more then a few.

Celia wanders, collecting meals, because this is what Lord Coake has taught her to do. His example of non committal to any political agenda or nation has set the exptations for all the other Knights(same with Tundra Ranger, and Justice Rangers).

I view this as a weakness on Lorde Coake's part. His refusal to dirty his hands with the difficult work of rebuilding civilization(and the political entanglements that it would bring) has let a pricelss opportunity pass by. By keeping his Knights above the geopolitics of North America he has chosen not to support an existing nation, or build his own.

Suppose a Lord Coake, on the Council of Twelve when Good King Gravander Henchu dies, is elected as the new King of Tolkeen.

What would an organized effort between Lord Coake and some of the members of Tolkeen to relocate as many refugees as possible to a new commmunity instead of waiting on the fringes to pick up stragglers when Tolkeen falls? We will never know, Lord Coake was too busy keeping his hands clean.

Imagine Lord Coake, after uniting the Tundra Rangers, Justice Rangers, the Heroes of Tolkeen and Lazlo overrun the Calgary Rift and hold the site long enough to erect a Pyramid to control the raging tempest. In time, The City of Calgary could become a bastion of civilization, tolerance and education, led by the indefatigable Lord Coake.

Lord Coake has the stature and respect to unite North America against the prejudice and hatred of the Coalition, He has chosen not to. He has chosen this knowing full well the end result of an unchecked Coalition. He has chosen to allow the domination of North America by a nation that would commit genoside many times over.

I'm raising this as a counter argument to the "all powerful" Coalition lament I see so often on these forums. It facinates me and IMO is proof of Mr. Siembieda's ability to create a magnificent place to game.

It occurs to me that i may be missing something and although I have more thoughts on this matter I'll stop here and ask a question.

Am I on to something, or am I on somthing?

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

I fail to see how it's cowardly. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no fan of cyber-knights, or any OTHER goody-two-shoes (paladins, Jedi, etc), and I take great delight in bringing them down (killing them, making them 'fall', embarrassing them or making them show themselves to be fools, that kind of thing), but even *I* can't see how you're getting that they're cowards. Being committed to a code that they consider to be more important than any group or nation, while stupid, doesn't strike me as cowardly. Hell, as much as I can't stand them and I like to bring them down, I can at least respect them a little bit simply *because* they stick to their beliefs rather than trying to play kingmaker or worse, sacrificing themselves for a nation that gives no fooks about them. What they do is harder than nation building or throwing their lives away to enrich and build power for someone else.

I can't believe I'm actually saying something positive about cyber knights. It's a good thing I'm just about to jump in the shower; I feel so incredibly dirty.

[Hotrod]

Am I on to something, or am I on somthing?

Yes.

[SereneTsunami]

I fail to see how it's cowardly. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no fan of cyber-knights, or any OTHER goody-two-shoes (paladins, Jedi, etc), and I take great delight in bringing them down (killing them, making them 'fall', embarrassing them or making them show themselves to be fools, that kind of thing), but even *I* can't see how you're getting that they're cowards. Being committed to a code that they consider to be more important than any group or nation, while stupid, doesn't strike me as cowardly. Hell, as much as I can't stand them and I like to bring them down, I can at least respect them a little bit simply *because* they stick to their beliefs rather than trying to play kingmaker or worse, sacrificing themselves for a nation that gives no fooks about them. What they do is harder than nation building or throwing their lives away to enrich and build power for someone else.

I can't believe I'm actually saying something positive about cyber knights. It's a good thing I'm just about to jump in the shower; I feel so incredibly dirty.

I am a fan of Jedi and Cyber-Knights, I guess thats why i am being critical. Clinging to a "Code" that prevents you from doing the messy work of nation building, which is MUCH harder then wandering the countryside for free food, is a choice by Lord Coake.

The examples I gave of some of Lord Coake's other possible choices would have made North America a safer and kinder place. He is choosing to stay on the sidelines. If it's not a distaste for nation-building, what is it?

Do you think Coake is too dumb to see where the path that the Coalition's domination of NA leads to? Or has he decided not to fight that battle? I don't believe he is stupid, I believe her has chosen not to stand up to the Coalition.

Not saying I am not open to other ideas, but my case is not easilly dismissed.

Thanks for your thougths.

[SereneTsunami]

Am I on to something, or am I on somthing?

Yes.

I was afraid of that

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

I fail to see how it's cowardly. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no fan of cyber-knights, or any OTHER goody-two-shoes (paladins, Jedi, etc), and I take great delight in bringing them down (killing them, making them 'fall', embarrassing them or making them show themselves to be fools, that kind of thing), but even *I* can't see how you're getting that they're cowards. Being committed to a code that they consider to be more important than any group or nation, while stupid, doesn't strike me as cowardly. Hell, as much as I can't stand them and I like to bring them down, I can at least respect them a little bit simply *because* they stick to their beliefs rather than trying to play kingmaker or worse, sacrificing themselves for a nation that gives no fooks about them. What they do is harder than nation building or throwing their lives away to enrich and build power for someone else.

I can't believe I'm actually saying something positive about cyber knights. It's a good thing I'm just about to jump in the shower; I feel so incredibly dirty.

I am a fan of Jedi and Cyber-Knights, I guess thats why i am being critical. Clinging to a "Code" that prevents you from doing the messy work of nation building, which is MUCH harder then wandering the countryside for free food, is a choice by Lord Coake.

The examples I gave of some of Lord Coake's other possible choices would have made North America a safer and kinder place. He is choosing to stay on the sidelines. If it's not a distaste for nation-building, what is it?

Do you think Coake is too dumb to see where the path that the Coalition's domination of NA leads to? Or has he decided not to fight that battle? I don't believe he is stupid, I believe her has chosen not to stand up to the Coalition.

Not saying I am not open to other ideas, but my case is not easilly dismissed.

Thanks for your thougths.

I disagree. Nationbuilding is much easier than actually adhering to your core principles. Any fool with enough armed yahoos can do it. Especially if they're willing to throw principle to the wind and just grab power. We see many examples of this in real life.

Maybe Coake sees things you don't. Let's say for a moment that the CS...went away. Destroyed, disbanded, whatever. Great, so you just removed T.H.E. major force in North America. Whether you love them, hate them, or you're wholly indifferent, you can't deny that the CS is the major source of stability. They keep the Pecos Empire in check. They keep the Federation of Magic in check. They keep Atlantis from expanding their operations (and Atlantis could walk all over N.A. in a couple weeks, if Splynncryth were so inclined. With the CS, he's not willing to pay the price to do so just yet). They're the first true line of defense against the vampires in Mexico if they can ever get their sh1t together regarding vamps. They keep the former US Midwest relatively clear of monsters and bandits, and relatively peaceful. Notice I said "relatively". Compared to most places in the setting, the Domain of Man is peaceful and safe.

If Coake and The Boys removed the CS, then what? Who fills the vacuum?

Atlantis? As bad as the CS is in many ways, on their worst day they can't hold a candle to the Splugorth. The CS disappears, Splynn sends his minions a day later, and three weeks after that every intelligent life form in North America is a slave, or monster chow.

ARCHIE? I do not think this would be an improvement. Maybe if Uncle Arch wasn't insane, but he is.

The Federation of Magic? As bad as Atlantis in many regards, better in others, worse in some. I can't stand communists, fascists, or True Believer Fanatics, but I'll take Prosek and his Gaggle of Maggots over Dunscon all day, every day.

The Republicans don't have the power to fill the void. At best, they could help influence other nations, such as Ishpeming, Arnzo, the Colorado Baronies....all of whom would quickly fall to Atlantis. Or demons from Calgary. Or the Xiticix. Or whoever.


While I would love to see every cyber-knight flayed alive, I have no choice but to agree with them on this. Nationbuilding is a stupid thing to do. There are too many variables, too much that can go wrong. Unless you're dealing with a hive mind type of creature, in which case it might work out. Look no further than the 20th century and so far 21st century real life Earth for examples. I can't think of one that has worked out. The closest is Japan, but when you look behind the mask you see a country that's in trouble. They've got a few crises looming, mostly of their own doing, and it's going to take some pretty major, probably extreme action on their part to fix it. Had they been left alone after WWII, it *MAY* have turned out differently (my crystal ball is in the shop, so who knows). On the other end of the spectrum, you've got Iraq, Afghanistan, a significant part of Africa, Central and South America, most of the former Soviet bloc....

Gods, I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with cyber-knights on something. I must have pulled something at the gym this morning, or bumped my head in my sleep last night.

[glitterboy2098]

I think that people underestimate the effect cyberknights can have. And oversimplify their modus operandi. In many ways the cyber knights purpose is not to fight all evil themselves, so much as inspire, train, and lead non-knights to defend themselves. Much like Gandalf and the other Istari in lord of the rings, they are meant to inspire others to follow in their footsteps, and to advise and organize those defenders. Their reputation and deeds giving the defenders they organize hope and helping build trust.

So in your example, she would not just be making as circuit doing the work herself, she would have been helping each village create and maintain a militia, and helping them train. To create safespots and evacuation plans. To build and maintain defenses. So that should someone attack, the village can try to hold out.
Because the village would *also* know her circuit, and be able to send for help. From her, and from the other villages. Who would send part of their militias to help.. Probably led by the knight.

They aren't nation building, but they are preparing the field and planting the seeds of cooperation and survival that would allow as nation to eventually grow.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

I think that people underestimate the effect cyberknights can have. And oversimplify their modus operandi. In many ways the cyber knights purpose is not to fight all evil themselves, so much as inspire, train, and lead non-knights to defend themselves. Much like Gandalf and the other Istari in lord of the rings, they are meant to inspire others to follow in their footsteps, and to advise and organize those defenders. Their reputation and deeds giving the defenders they organize hope and helping build trust.

So in your example, she would not just be making as circuit doing the work herself, she would have been helping each village create and maintain a militia, and helping them train. To create safespots and evacuation plans. To build and maintain defenses. So that should someone attack, the village can try to hold out.
Because the village would *also* know her circuit, and be able to send for help. From her, and from the other villages. Who would send part of their militias to help.. Probably led by the knight.

They aren't nation building, but they are preparing the field and planting the seeds of cooperation and survival that would allow as nation to eventually grow.

Also this. I'm reminded of that bit about teaching a man to fish.

[Hotrod]

SereneTsunami,

Snarkiness aside, you're both entirely correct and absolutely wrong.

The very idea of the Cyber Knights is predicated on a romanticized ideal of the middle ages that never truly existed as a thing: the chivalrous knight-errant. Actual knightly orders were generally dedicated to varying causes such as themselves (Order of the Black Swan), a monarchy/nation (Order of the Bath), and religious causes (Templars, Teutonics, and Hospitallers).

There's a plethora of paradoxes that define the Cyber-Knight of Rifts Earth. These are warriors of great power and skill who require a great deal of resources and support in order to carry out their self-appointed missions, yet they eschew the kind of regular support that would come with aligning themselves to governments, because they don't want to take sides. Yet their very own missions require them to take sides at times in specific conflicts, and Coake himself has done so (rescuing Lady Prosek, for instance). One of the few types of foes that virtually all Cyber-Knights take a stand against are supernatural evil creatures, yet, their abilities are tailor-made to fight high technology. Cyber-Knight training requires monk-like dedication to exacting standards and a strict code of conduct, yet they are a decentralized organization and don't police their own in any organized way; The Tolkeen War was the first time Coake seemed to issue commands to the entire order, and there were no significant consequences from him or the order for those who refused his commands (it was essentially a "you made your bed, lie in it" at most).

The fundamental paradox of the Cyber-Knights, though, is one they share with the other "knight-errant" types of groups such as the Panda-type True Atlantean clans, the Tundra Rangers, and Lazlo. Namely, they are idealists in the face of a grim, dark world. This is both a source of great strength and a potentially fatal flaw. It's a great strength in the sense that it gives these groups moral authority, respect, and support. It's a fatal flaw for reasons you detail in the OP here and others, such as the fact that they may be morally compelled to fight for hopeless causes, have little to no backup against overpowering threats, and their nomadic, "avoid politics" tradition inherently stunts their ability to uplift the people they claim to serve.

Rifts as a setting is built around some design principles. One of those principles is that great power has drawbacks. Juicers die young. Borgs give up their humanity. Glitterboys can't live in their suits. Debees, mutants, Psychics, and mages are widely feared and often have fewer options than normal humans.

The Cyber-knight's big drawback is subtle, but tragic. They dedicate their lives to causes that are utterly beyond their ability to meaningfully accomplish. Sure, they can kill a demon preying on a village, but the rifts will bring more, and the village remains just as vulnerable. They might save some innocent debees from a CS death squad, but the CS troops they kill have families who now have one more reason to hate what's out there. This is a class dedicated to "saving the day" that does little toward making life for the coming year any better. At best, they prevent destruction and death. They don't build.

[SereneTsunami]

I fail to see how it's cowardly. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no fan of cyber-knights, or any OTHER goody-two-shoes (paladins, Jedi, etc), and I take great delight in bringing them down (killing them, making them 'fall', embarrassing them or making them show themselves to be fools, that kind of thing), but even *I* can't see how you're getting that they're cowards. Being committed to a code that they consider to be more important than any group or nation, while stupid, doesn't strike me as cowardly. Hell, as much as I can't stand them and I like to bring them down, I can at least respect them a little bit simply *because* they stick to their beliefs rather than trying to play kingmaker or worse, sacrificing themselves for a nation that gives no fooks about them. What they do is harder than nation building or throwing their lives away to enrich and build power for someone else.

I can't believe I'm actually saying something positive about cyber knights. It's a good thing I'm just about to jump in the shower; I feel so incredibly dirty.

I am a fan of Jedi and Cyber-Knights, I guess thats why i am being critical. Clinging to a "Code" that prevents you from doing the messy work of nation building, which is MUCH harder then wandering the countryside for free food, is a choice by Lord Coake.

The examples I gave of some of Lord Coake's other possible choices would have made North America a safer and kinder place. He is choosing to stay on the sidelines. If it's not a distaste for nation-building, what is it?

Do you think Coake is too dumb to see where the path that the Coalition's domination of NA leads to? Or has he decided not to fight that battle? I don't believe he is stupid, I believe her has chosen not to stand up to the Coalition.

Not saying I am not open to other ideas, but my case is not easilly dismissed.

Thanks for your thougths.

I disagree. Nationbuilding is much easier than actually adhering to your core principles. Any fool with enough armed yahoos can do it. Especially if they're willing to throw principle to the wind and just grab power. We see many examples of this in real life.

Maybe Coake sees things you don't. Let's say for a moment that the CS...went away. Destroyed, disbanded, whatever. Great, so you just removed T.H.E. major force in North America. Whether you love them, hate them, or you're wholly indifferent, you can't deny that the CS is the major source of stability. They keep the Pecos Empire in check. They keep the Federation of Magic in check. They keep Atlantis from expanding their operations (and Atlantis could walk all over N.A. in a couple weeks, if Splynncryth were so inclined. With the CS, he's not willing to pay the price to do so just yet). They're the first true line of defense against the vampires in Mexico if they can ever get their sh1t together regarding vamps. They keep the former US Midwest relatively clear of monsters and bandits, and relatively peaceful. Notice I said "relatively". Compared to most places in the setting, the Domain of Man is peaceful and safe.

If Coake and The Boys removed the CS, then what? Who fills the vacuum?

Atlantis? As bad as the CS is in many ways, on their worst day they can't hold a candle to the Splugorth. The CS disappears, Splynn sends his minions a day later, and three weeks after that every intelligent life form in North America is a slave, or monster chow.

ARCHIE? I do not think this would be an improvement. Maybe if Uncle Arch wasn't insane, but he is.

The Federation of Magic? As bad as Atlantis in many regards, better in others, worse in some. I can't stand communists, fascists, or True Believer Fanatics, but I'll take Prosek and his Gaggle of Maggots over Dunscon all day, every day.

The Republicans don't have the power to fill the void. At best, they could help influence other nations, such as Ishpeming, Arnzo, the Colorado Baronies....all of whom would quickly fall to Atlantis. Or demons from Calgary. Or the Xiticix. Or whoever.

I think that you are off the mark a bit on the "What ifs". There will always be a Coalition, its to big and too advanced. However, a nation lead by Coake, could help balance out the geopolitics. There can be no doubt that an unchecked CS means genocide and the eventual extinction of the Cyber Knights in NA. Choosing his principles over doing something distasteful is a sign of what? Heroism?


While I would love to see every cyber-knight flayed alive, I have no choice but to agree with them on this. Nationbuilding is a stupid thing to do. There are too many variables, too much that can go wrong. Unless you're dealing with a hive mind type of creature, in which case it might work out. Look no further than the 20th century and so far 21st century real life Earth for examples. I can't think of one that has worked out. The closest is Japan, but when you look behind the mask you see a country that's in trouble. They've got a few crises looming, mostly of their own doing, and it's going to take some pretty major, probably extreme action on their part to fix it. Had they been left alone after WWII, it *MAY* have turned out differently (my crystal ball is in the shop, so who knows). On the other end of the spectrum, you've got Iraq, Afghanistan, a significant part of Africa, Central and South America, most of the former Soviet bloc....


I'm thinking Japan is the model of nation building. America provided security and law and order and allowed Japan to recover from it's horrific defeat in WW2. Coake could have allied with several of Tolkeen's Council of 12 and built a new kingdom far out west, saving the best of TOlkeen. It would have "tainted" the Knights in his own words. That's not a righteous decision, thats a selfish one. Protect the Knights image or save lives.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gods, I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with cyber-knights on something. I must have pulled something at the gym this morning, or bumped my head in my sleep last night.

[SereneTsunami]

I think that people underestimate the effect cyberknights can have. And oversimplify their modus operandi. In many ways the cyber knights purpose is not to fight all evil themselves, so much as inspire, train, and lead non-knights to defend themselves. Much like Gandalf and the other Istari in lord of the rings, they are meant to inspire others to follow in their footsteps, and to advise and organize those defenders. Their reputation and deeds giving the defenders they organize hope and helping build trust.

So in your example, she would not just be making as circuit doing the work herself, she would have been helping each village create and maintain a militia, and helping them train. To create safespots and evacuation plans. To build and maintain defenses. So that should someone attack, the village can try to hold out.
Because the village would *also* know her circuit, and be able to send for help. From her, and from the other villages. Who would send part of their militias to help.. Probably led by the knight.

They aren't nation building, but they are preparing the field and planting the seeds of cooperation and survival that would allow as nation to eventually grow.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think this is the crux of it. I think...

Celia is inspiring and protecting, but can't she do that better with the help of 500 other Knights in a secure location behind big walls? Can't the Knights do more if they use their strengths to work together? Why don't they?

I am saying it is because it is personally distasteful to Coake. He wants to "be above the fray"(his words, SoT4pg12-14). This is a choice, and one I am contending costs alot of lives and more importantly prevents the creation of a counter weight to the might of the Coalition.

Coake saved Prosek's special lady friend, what if he had done that as the King of Tolkeen, as I had offered in the OP? Stopped the war? We will never know, Coake couldn't be botherd to do all he could to keep Tolkeen on the strait and narrow.

Could the same King Coake have united Lazlo, NG, and the FoM in a mutual defensive pact that would have given pause to an already cautious Prosek regime? We will never know, Lord Coake was worring about the pristine image of the Knights.

He does not use the sterling reputation of the Knights to unite folks against the CS. He protects it. For what? What is he waiting for?

[SereneTsunami]

SereneTsunami,

Snarkiness aside, you're both entirely correct and absolutely wrong.

The very idea of the Cyber Knights is predicated on a romanticized ideal of the middle ages that never truly existed as a thing: the chivalrous knight-errant. Actual knightly orders were generally dedicated to varying causes such as themselves (Order of the Black Swan), a monarchy/nation (Order of the Bath), and religious causes (Templars, Teutonics, and Hospitallers).

There's a plethora of paradoxes that define the Cyber-Knight of Rifts Earth. These are warriors of great power and skill who require a great deal of resources and support in order to carry out their self-appointed missions, yet they eschew the kind of regular support that would come with aligning themselves to governments, because they don't want to take sides. Yet their very own missions require them to take sides at times in specific conflicts, and Coake himself has done so (rescuing Lady Prosek, for instance). One of the few types of foes that virtually all Cyber-Knights take a stand against are supernatural evil creatures, yet, their abilities are tailor-made to fight high technology. Cyber-Knight training requires monk-like dedication to exacting standards and a strict code of conduct, yet they are a decentralized organization and don't police their own in any organized way; The Tolkeen War was the first time Coake seemed to issue commands to the entire order, and there were no significant consequences from him or the order for those who refused his commands (it was essentially a "you made your bed, lie in it" at most.

The fundamental paradox of the Cyber-Knights, though, is one they share with the other "knight-errant" types of groups such as the Panda-type True Atlantean clans, the Tundra Rangers, and Lazlo. Namely, they are idealists in the face of a grim, dark world. This is both a source of great strength and a potentially fatal flaw. It's a great strength in the sense that it gives these groups moral authority, respect, and support. It's a fatal flaw for reasons you detail in the OP here and others, such as the fact that they may be morally compelled to fight for hopeless causes, have little to no backup against overpowering threats, and their nomadic, "avoid politics" tradition inherently stunts their ability to uplift the people they claim to serve.

Rifts as a setting is built around some design principles. One of those principles is that great power has drawbacks. Juicers die young. Borgs give up their humanity. Glitterboys can't live in their suits. Debees, mutants, Psychics, and mages are widely feared and often have fewer options than normal humans.

The Cyber-knight's big drawback is subtle, but tragic. They dedicate their lives to causes that are utterly beyond their ability to meaningfully accomplish. Sure, they can kill a demon preying on a village, but the rifts will bring more, and the village remains just as vulnerable. They might save some innocent debees from a CS death squad, but the CS troops they kill have families who now have one more reason to hate what's out there. This is a class dedicated to "saving the day" that does little toward making life for the coming year any better. At best, they prevent destruction and death. They don't build.

Thank you for this post. I especially like the use of "Panda Clan" in a sentence.

I agree with your assertions, about tragic competing nature of many of the "heroes" in rifts, and the principle of "power at a cost" in Rifts. It is one of the coolest ideas, IMO.

I named this thread cause it sounds cool, but also cause i think it's true. Lord Coake is a hero, but his adherance to his principles(what makes him a hero?) keeps him from being the kind of hero Rifts needs.

Can't King Coake do more good then Coake, Lord of Hobos? The motivations of hiis tragic choice and their consequences are my interest. Thanks for talking about it with me.

[Hotrod]

Click below to read about my real-life experience that has some bearing on this topic:

Spoiler:

I'm going to take a bit of a risk here and provide some personal experiences, because I think it illustrates an important principle in this discussion. For a real-life analogy to the Cyber-Knights, consider Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD), the Bomb Squad of the Army.

I spent two deployments doing EOD in Iraq, with my first one being just prior to and during the Surge (fall 2006-spring 2008). We would respond to calls for help, drive up, take care of the IED or UXO, and drive off. The next day, we'd do the same, often in the same places. I felt awesome every time we took down an IED, and I'm certain that our unit saved a lot of lives. In that sense, we made a difference, but in the grand scheme of things, how much did my efforts help win the conflict? The best we could do after "saving the day" was hand off some of the stuff we'd collect from our incidents and hope that our forensics people could get useful information from them to go after the bomb-makers. The militias and terrorist networks kept the fight going, though, no matter how many bombs we took down.

You know who really won The Surge and pacified Baghdad in 2007? Three types of troops. The first group were engineers who cleaned up the roads and walled off the city's neighborhoods so that the enemy couldn't move their bomb-making factories and had no place to hide their bombs on the pristine highways. The second was the soldiers who went into those neighborhoods, secured them, and held them by staying there and living in the communities themselves. The third was the senior officers who made political deals with the relevant parties so that the Shiites stopped ethnically cleansing the Sunnis and attacking us, and so the Sunni tribes stopped attacking us and turned against the Al Qaida thugs who had "defended" them by bombing women and children in Shiite neighborhoods.

Nobody wants to make a movie about troops painting curbs, filling potholes, and lifting concrete T-walls off the back of a truck all day, but they did far more than I did to stop the IED attacks. Nobody wants to read a story in Playboy Magazine about a bunch of American GIs buying food at a market outside their little outpost and patrolling an already-pacified neighborhood, but that's the kind of boring work that gave Baghdad the breathing room it needed to start talking with words instead of car bombs. The American public doesn't care about the tribal politics or the Sunni/Shiite dynamic in Iraq, but those politically-minded officers sitting down with tribal elders and drinking blazing hot Chai tea in the middle of blazing hot days made my unit go from running three response teams outside the wire at a time to going days without a single call by the end of our 15 months there. Instead, people want to see the freaking Hurt Locker, an abomination of a portrayal of the Army in general and EOD in particular, a movie that consists of nothing but facing danger after danger for no discernible benefit.

My second deployment, my unit did almost no response missions at all. Instead, we partnered with, supported, and trained Iraqis to do bomb disposal, and they took care of almost everything. I was drinking the hot Chai on the hot summer days this time. Otherwise, we were bored and homesick, and we longed to be back out there blowing stuff up and saving the day. Now, though, I think that I made more of a difference the second deployment than the first. Many of those units I trained have spent the last several years fighting ISIS. Sure, we could have done the bomb disposal for them (and done a better job), but by helping them to do it and building them up, we helped give them a fighting chance at winning a future without foreign occupation and/or terrorist thugs running their country.

tl;dr Saving the day generally accomplishes less than investing, doing the drudge work, empowering the community, and hammering out political solutions.

That lesson seems lost upon the Cyber-Knights, who are drawn to the action, to the quest, to the heroics, and then ride off as soon as the great deeds are done. Maybe half of them will "hold court" and tell their tales to the locals, and most of the rest will dump any spoils they don't need before moving on (vow of poverty). Now, there's absolutely a need for that kind of courage and deed in Rifts Earth, but the Cyber-Knights refuse to play the long game. They don't subscribe to the "teach a man to fish" vs "give a man a fish" philosophy, because chivalry is inherently dedicated to defending the weak, not to empowering or strengthening the weak against the next threat. Coake comes from a (fantasy) feudal society, and as a palladin, the idea of raising the peasantry to fight for themselves is anathema to the culture that produced him. This is truly why the Coalition States is such a juggernaut in North America, because they invest heavily in the communities they annex and will train and equip any able bodied human who wants to gun down demons/aliens and win back the planet for humanity. Cyber-Knights are great at winning fights, but they are terrible at winning wars or taking meaningful steps toward creating a truly promising future.

When the common people are able to defend themselves, there's no reason for the Cyber-Knights to exist as anything more than figures of myth and examples to inspire courage and moral virtue. In that sense, Northern Gun probably does more meaningful work in advancing the plight of the weak in North America than Coake and his adherents.

[eliakon]

I think that people underestimate the effect cyberknights can have. And oversimplify their modus operandi. In many ways the cyber knights purpose is not to fight all evil themselves, so much as inspire, train, and lead non-knights to defend themselves. Much like Gandalf and the other Istari in lord of the rings, they are meant to inspire others to follow in their footsteps, and to advise and organize those defenders. Their reputation and deeds giving the defenders they organize hope and helping build trust.

So in your example, she would not just be making as circuit doing the work herself, she would have been helping each village create and maintain a militia, and helping them train. To create safespots and evacuation plans. To build and maintain defenses. So that should someone attack, the village can try to hold out.
Because the village would *also* know her circuit, and be able to send for help. From her, and from the other villages. Who would send part of their militias to help.. Probably led by the knight.

They aren't nation building, but they are preparing the field and planting the seeds of cooperation and survival that would allow as nation to eventually grow.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think this is the crux of it. I think...

Celia is inspiring and protecting, but can't she do that better with the help of 500 other Knights in a secure location behind big walls? Can't the Knights do more if they use their strengths to work together? Why don't they?

Because then they are doing the exact same thing you accused them of doing before...
...being in only one place at a time.
The problem here is that people are acting as if the Cyber-Knights are supposed to be singlehandedly solving the entire worlds problems like they are Superman in Metropolis.
That isn't them.
They are a mix between wandering teachers and good boogie men.

They wander because the fact that they are transient gives people that much more incentive to take their lessons to heart. When they teach a militia how to drill that militia pays attention because they know that the Cyber-Knight won't always be there to bail them out... that some day they will have to be the thin line between evil and their families.

They wander because the truly do burn for justice and know that evil will simply avoid places where they are fortified. If you wait for the darkness to come to you its already to late, you have to go out and find where the darkness lurks. Then when you have found its lair you call your brethren and ride in crusade to destroy it.

They wander because many of the threats on Rifts Earth are no match for a small team of knights, or even one moderately skilled knight and thus they have decided that they can do more good by spreading out and protecting entire nations than simply declaring one city-state safe.

And most important
They wander because that way the bandits and villains have to ask themselves every time they want to raid someplace "are we sure there isn't a Cyber-knight in town today? Are you sure?"
As I have said before in the thread on the new Cyber-Knights. I think that the anti-tech focus of the Cyber-Knights is the most logical thing that they could do. I say that for the same reason that I think they should wander.
By being able to utterly destroy the most common threat (bandits, rouge soldiers, warlords, strong men, renegade MMs, crocked lawmen and the like) to the citizenry of North America they become a boogie man to those threats. And by wandering those threats never know if there is a Cyber-Knight around...
Its a 'scared straight' sort of thing where just the hint that there might be a Cyber-Knight in the area is probably enough to make many bandits simply go elsewhere or turn themselves in.
I know that my cybernetic assassin who has stared down adult dragons and dealt with gods...has nightmares about Cyber-Knights.

I am saying it is because it is personally distasteful to Coake. He wants to "be above the fray"(his words, SoT4pg12-14). This is a choice, and one I am contending costs alot of lives and more importantly prevents the creation of a counter weight to the might of the Coalition.

In the SoT it was a really, really, really good decision.
Which evil would you have had him come in on the side on? Would you have had him come in on the side of the genocidal humans or the humans who had decided to unleash demons on innocents?
There is no way that the Cyber-Knights, even if they all banded together and started a mass recruiting drive and all joined in with Lazlo would even begin to 'counter weight" the Coalition. The Coaltion is basically North America. They have more soldiers than the populations of most every other unaligned nation on the continent combined. The Cyber-Knights are not going to tip that regardless of if they fort up or wander so it is ludicrous to hold it against them.
And lets not forget that it is the very fact that the Cyber-Knights are wandering knights-errant that gives Coake the sterling reputation that gives him the influence that you say he should have used.
If he had done something else he would not have ever gained the reputation to use in the first place!

Coake saved Prosek's special lady friend, what if he had done that as the King of Tolkeen, as I had offered in the OP? Stopped the war? We will never know, Coake couldn't be botherd to do all he could to keep Tolkeen on the strait and narrow.

There is no way that Coake could have been the King of Tolkeen though.
That's the point.
Never mind that if he was busy being the king of a nation then he wouldn't exactly have time to go around saving people.
But as to your question... if he had done it as the King of Tolkeen then he would have started the war earlier and gotten Jessica Prosek executed.
Since it would have been seen as the FoM returning her after having had her...
...she would have been (rightly) seen as hopelessly compromised and a probable sleeper agent and the war would have become one to avenge her.
BUT in our world... the Cyber-Knights have a reputation for impartiality. They have a reputation for not picking sides. They are known far and wide for only being on the side of justice and helping everyone even the CS...
...in our world the rescue of a CS citizen by Cyber-Knights would be seen as "a thing".
Interesting thought huh.

Could the same King Coake have united Lazlo, NG, and the FoM in a mutual defensive pact that would have given pause to an already cautious Prosek regime? We will never know, Lord Coake was worring about the pristine image of the Knights.

Not a chance at all.
The FoM is not going to be united by anyone let alone "King Coake". Its nice wishful thinking to pretend that just because you have a good guy running one country that all the other evil self serving villains will just pack up and leave.
But it isn't going to happen.
Lazlo is lead by Plato, their speaker is Erin Tarn... and yet they have not gotten any alliances. To think that Coake could do better is absurd. ESPECIALLY since to become the king he would have had to give up the very thing that makes him influential now.
If he had taken Tolkeen then he would just be King Coake. No more no less. Just like King Creed was. He would just have a fancier army is all.
With out the legacy of the Cyber-Knights and their heroics he is just another warlord.

He does not use the sterling reputation of the Knights to unite folks against the CS. He protects it. For what? What is he waiting for?

Ahhh
But he does.
He is just doing it in a way that you don't seem to approve of.
He is not going out and bashing peoples heads in and converting them at gun point as he conquers by the psi-sword...
...but there are other ways to do things.
He is working. He is spreading hope, he is spreading truth and he is spreading justice. People scoff at this...
...but they are some of the most powerful weapons in the arsenal. Look at the revolutions, uprisings and resistance movements of history. How many of them had no hope, how many of them were successfully lead by people who had given up and accepted that they had no chance and that the world was unfair and that no one cared.

[kaid]

Also one thing to note is a lot of what remains of NA is even less populated than the old west was. What towns there are are tiny and transient for the most part. So in general people trying to help are going to tend to be wandering a circuit because staying in one place is helping a bare handful of people so they try to spread their powers to the best of their ability to at least make real evil doers at least take a second thought because they can't know if a cyberknight will be back soon or not.

Most of the more secure places don't need their presence as much because they are already pretty well defended so they are trying to help out the common people from the things that goes bump in the night to the best of their ability to do so.

[SereneTsunami]

I think that people underestimate the effect cyberknights can have. And oversimplify their modus operandi. In many ways the cyber knights purpose is not to fight all evil themselves, so much as inspire, train, and lead non-knights to defend themselves. Much like Gandalf and the other Istari in lord of the rings, they are meant to inspire others to follow in their footsteps, and to advise and organize those defenders. Their reputation and deeds giving the defenders they organize hope and helping build trust.

So in your example, she would not just be making as circuit doing the work herself, she would have been helping each village create and maintain a militia, and helping them train. To create safespots and evacuation plans. To build and maintain defenses. So that should someone attack, the village can try to hold out.
Because the village would *also* know her circuit, and be able to send for help. From her, and from the other villages. Who would send part of their militias to help.. Probably led by the knight.

They aren't nation building, but they are preparing the field and planting the seeds of cooperation and survival that would allow as nation to eventually grow.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think this is the crux of it. I think...

Celia is inspiring and protecting, but can't she do that better with the help of 500 other Knights in a secure location behind big walls? Can't the Knights do more if they use their strengths to work together? Why don't they?

Because then they are doing the exact same thing you accused them of doing before...
...being in only one place at a time.
The problem here is that people are acting as if the Cyber-Knights are supposed to be singlehandedly solving the entire worlds problems like they are Superman in Metropolis.
That isn't them.
They are a mix between wandering teachers and good boogie men.

They wander because the fact that they are transient gives people that much more incentive to take their lessons to heart. When they teach a militia how to drill that militia pays attention because they know that the Cyber-Knight won't always be there to bail them out... that some day they will have to be the thin line between evil and their families.

They wander because the truly do burn for justice and know that evil will simply avoid places where they are fortified. If you wait for the darkness to come to you its already to late, you have to go out and find where the darkness lurks. Then when you have found its lair you call your brethren and ride in crusade to destroy it.

They wander because many of the threats on Rifts Earth are no match for a small team of knights, or even one moderately skilled knight and thus they have decided that they can do more good by spreading out and protecting entire nations than simply declaring one city-state safe.

And most important
They wander because that way the bandits and villains have to ask themselves every time they want to raid someplace "are we sure there isn't a Cyber-knight in town today? Are you sure?"
As I have said before in the thread on the new Cyber-Knights. I think that the anti-tech focus of the Cyber-Knights is the most logical thing that they could do. I say that for the same reason that I think they should wander.
By being able to utterly destroy the most common threat (bandits, rouge soldiers, warlords, strong men, renegade MMs, crocked lawmen and the like) to the citizenry of North America they become a boogie man to those threats. And by wandering those threats never know if there is a Cyber-Knight around...
Its a 'scared straight' sort of thing where just the hint that there might be a Cyber-Knight in the area is probably enough to make many bandits simply go elsewhere or turn themselves in.
I know that my cybernetic assassin who has stared down adult dragons and dealt with gods...has nightmares about Cyber-Knights.

I am saying it is because it is personally distasteful to Coake. He wants to "be above the fray"(his words, SoT4pg12-14). This is a choice, and one I am contending costs alot of lives and more importantly prevents the creation of a counter weight to the might of the Coalition.

In the SoT it was a really, really, really good decision.
Which evil would you have had him come in on the side on? Would you have had him come in on the side of the genocidal humans or the humans who had decided to unleash demons on innocents?
There is no way that the Cyber-Knights, even if they all banded together and started a mass recruiting drive and all joined in with Lazlo would even begin to 'counter weight" the Coalition. The Coaltion is basically North America. They have more soldiers than the populations of most every other unaligned nation on the continent combined. The Cyber-Knights are not going to tip that regardless of if they fort up or wander so it is ludicrous to hold it against them.
And lets not forget that it is the very fact that the Cyber-Knights are wandering knights-errant that gives Coake the sterling reputation that gives him the influence that you say he should have used.
If he had done something else he would not have ever gained the reputation to use in the first place!

Coake saved Prosek's special lady friend, what if he had done that as the King of Tolkeen, as I had offered in the OP? Stopped the war? We will never know, Coake couldn't be botherd to do all he could to keep Tolkeen on the strait and narrow.

There is no way that Coake could have been the King of Tolkeen though.
That's the point.
Never mind that if he was busy being the king of a nation then he wouldn't exactly have time to go around saving people.
But as to your question... if he had done it as the King of Tolkeen then he would have started the war earlier and gotten Jessica Prosek executed.
Since it would have been seen as the FoM returning her after having had her...
...she would have been (rightly) seen as hopelessly compromised and a probable sleeper agent and the war would have become one to avenge her.
BUT in our world... the Cyber-Knights have a reputation for impartiality. They have a reputation for not picking sides. They are known far and wide for only being on the side of justice and helping everyone even the CS...
...in our world the rescue of a CS citizen by Cyber-Knights would be seen as "a thing".
Interesting thought huh.

Could the same King Coake have united Lazlo, NG, and the FoM in a mutual defensive pact that would have given pause to an already cautious Prosek regime? We will never know, Lord Coake was worring about the pristine image of the Knights.

Not a chance at all.
The FoM is not going to be united by anyone let alone "King Coake". Its nice wishful thinking to pretend that just because you have a good guy running one country that all the other evil self serving villains will just pack up and leave.
But it isn't going to happen.
Lazlo is lead by Plato, their speaker is Erin Tarn... and yet they have not gotten any alliances. To think that Coake could do better is absurd. ESPECIALLY since to become the king he would have had to give up the very thing that makes him influential now.
If he had taken Tolkeen then he would just be King Coake. No more no less. Just like King Creed was. He would just have a fancier army is all.
With out the legacy of the Cyber-Knights and their heroics he is just another warlord.

He does not use the sterling reputation of the Knights to unite folks against the CS. He protects it. For what? What is he waiting for?

Ahhh
But he does.
He is just doing it in a way that you don't seem to approve of.
He is not going out and bashing peoples heads in and converting them at gun point as he conquers by the psi-sword...
...but there are other ways to do things.
He is working. He is spreading hope, he is spreading truth and he is spreading justice. People scoff at this...
...but they are some of the most powerful weapons in the arsenal. Look at the revolutions, uprisings and resistance movements of history. How many of them had no hope, how many of them were successfully lead by people who had given up and accepted that they had no chance and that the world was unfair and that no one cared.

Some of your points are interesting, but they have no place here. I am not writing canon(rewriting) as you are when you respond to my questions. Those kind of responses kill discussion and make it seem like you have some higher authourity.

I am asking about Coake's choices, his motivations, and the costs of those choices and how they might change the view of his as a character. The same could be said for Tarn and Plato.

Coake *could* be able to use his reputation to balance out the CS. He *could* be able to use his Knights to build a nation. Only one man has the ststus to be more definitative, and it ain't you.

Thanks for your reply.

PS your signature quote is exactly the point of my assertions about The Hobo King. that's ironical.

[SereneTsunami]

Also one thing to note is a lot of what remains of NA is even less populated than the old west was. What towns there are are tiny and transient for the most part. So in general people trying to help are going to tend to be wandering a circuit because staying in one place is helping a bare handful of people so they try to spread their powers to the best of their ability to at least make real evil doers at least take a second thought because they can't know if a cyberknight will be back soon or not.

Most of the more secure places don't need their presence as much because they are already pretty well defended so they are trying to help out the common people from the things that goes bump in the night to the best of their ability to do so.

Yea, I totally agree. This is how the dynamic feels to me in the "Hobo King" Rifts.

What I'm wondering is would the Tundra Rangers(or Knights) do more good from taking 5000 of them and basing them out of Hudson Weigh(WB#20) and helping that town to grow into a town that could defend itself from Iron Heart or the Zits?

Mr. Seimbeida has many many examples of towns that thrive when they can offer safety and security. Knights and Rangers can offer this type of security and help to really build a sustainable civilization, not husband a few villages that can git wiped out by the next band of Brodkil.

Thanks.

[SereneTsunami]

Click below to read about my real-life experience that has some bearing on this topic:

Spoiler:

I'm going to take a bit of a risk here and provide some personal experiences, because I think it illustrates an important principle in this discussion. For a real-life analogy to the Cyber-Knights, consider Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD), the Bomb Squad of the Army.

I spent two deployments doing EOD in Iraq, with my first one being just prior to and during the Surge (fall 2006-spring 2008). We would respond to calls for help, drive up, take care of the IED or UXO, and drive off. The next day, we'd do the same, often in the same places. I felt awesome every time we took down an IED, and I'm certain that our unit saved a lot of lives. In that sense, we made a difference, but in the grand scheme of things, how much did my efforts help win the conflict? The best we could do after "saving the day" was hand off some of the stuff we'd collect from our incidents and hope that our forensics people could get useful information from them to go after the bomb-makers. The militias and terrorist networks kept the fight going, though, no matter how many bombs we took down.

You know who really won The Surge and pacified Baghdad in 2007? Three types of troops. The first group were engineers who cleaned up the roads and walled off the city's neighborhoods so that the enemy couldn't move their bomb-making factories and had no place to hide their bombs on the pristine highways. The second was the soldiers who went into those neighborhoods, secured them, and held them by staying there and living in the communities themselves. The third was the senior officers who made political deals with the relevant parties so that the Shiites stopped ethnically cleansing the Sunnis and attacking us, and so the Sunni tribes stopped attacking us and turned against the Al Qaida thugs who had "defended" them by bombing women and children in Shiite neighborhoods.

Nobody wants to make a movie about troops painting curbs, filling potholes, and lifting concrete T-walls off the back of a truck all day, but they did far more than I did to stop the IED attacks. Nobody wants to read a story in Playboy Magazine about a bunch of American GIs buying food at a market outside their little outpost and patrolling an already-pacified neighborhood, but that's the kind of boring work that gave Baghdad the breathing room it needed to start talking with words instead of car bombs. The American public doesn't care about the tribal politics or the Sunni/Shiite dynamic in Iraq, but those politically-minded officers sitting down with tribal elders and drinking blazing hot Chai tea in the middle of blazing hot days made my unit go from running three response teams outside the wire at a time to going days without a single call by the end of our 15 months there. Instead, people want to see the freaking Hurt Locker, an abomination of a portrayal of the Army in general and EOD in particular, a movie that consists of nothing but facing danger after danger for no discernible benefit.

My second deployment, my unit did almost no response missions at all. Instead, we partnered with, supported, and trained Iraqis to do bomb disposal, and they took care of almost everything. I was drinking the hot Chai on the hot summer days this time. Otherwise, we were bored and homesick, and we longed to be back out there blowing stuff up and saving the day. Now, though, I think that I made more of a difference the second deployment than the first. Many of those units I trained have spent the last several years fighting ISIS. Sure, we could have done the bomb disposal for them (and done a better job), but by helping them to do it and building them up, we helped give them a fighting chance at winning a future without foreign occupation and/or terrorist thugs running their country.

tl;dr Saving the day generally accomplishes less than investing, doing the drudge work, empowering the community, and hammering out political solutions.

That lesson seems lost upon the Cyber-Knights, who are drawn to the action, to the quest, to the heroics, and then ride off as soon as the great deeds are done. Maybe half of them will "hold court" and tell their tales to the locals, and most of the rest will dump any spoils they don't need before moving on (vow of poverty). Now, there's absolutely a need for that kind of courage and deed in Rifts Earth, but the Cyber-Knights refuse to play the long game. They don't subscribe to the "teach a man to fish" vs "give a man a fish" philosophy, because chivalry is inherently dedicated to defending the weak, not to empowering or strengthening the weak against the next threat. Coake comes from a (fantasy) feudal society, and as a palladin, the idea of raising the peasantry to fight for themselves is anathema to the culture that produced him. This is truly why the Coalition States is such a juggernaut in North America, because they invest heavily in the communities they annex and will train and equip any able bodied human who wants to gun down demons/aliens and win back the planet for humanity. Cyber-Knights are great at winning fights, but they are terrible at winning wars or taking meaningful steps toward creating a truly promising future.

When the common people are able to defend themselves, there's no reason for the Cyber-Knights to exist as anything more than figures of myth and examples to inspire courage and moral virtue. In that sense, Northern Gun probably does more meaningful work in advancing the plight of the weak in North America than Coake and his adherents.

Great post. Thanks for sharing.

[Hotrod]

One last thought: a central idea in the Savage Rifts world, and where it changes markedly from classic Rifts, is the whole "Legion of Tomorrow" that Coake helps found a stronghold at Castle Refuge and plays some part in leading and shaping its community (though he still spends much time travelling).

Frankly, I prefer the quasi-quixotic Coake who refuses to compromise his ideals to achieve more meaningful ends.

[eliakon]

Some of your points are interesting, but they have no place here.

Then why ask the question?
No seriously.
If you are going to ask questions and state that Coake is morally corrupt for his actions then why would defending those actions have no place here?

I am not writing canon(rewriting) as you are when you respond to my questions.

I'm not "rewriting" cannon.
I am stating reasons why it is not justified to make a blanket statement that the Cyber-Knights and Lord Coake are Doing It Wrong and are thus moral cowards and fools.
THAT is rewriting cannon btw...

Those kind of responses kill discussion and make it seem like you have some higher authourity.

It doesn't really seem like your interested in a discussion though.
It seems like you already have your preset conclusion that the Cyber-Knights are cowardly villians and you are only interested in hearing support for it.

I am asking about Coake's choices, his motivations, and the costs of those choices and how they might change the view of his as a character. The same could be said for Tarn and Plato.

Odd.
Because you just told me that trying to explain those choices, motivations and costs had no place here?
Am I to assume then that only views that degrade Coake, Tarn and Plato are vaild here?

Coake *could* be able to use his reputation to balance out the CS. He *could* be able to use his Knights to build a nation.

Okay then.
Humor me.
When?
Where?
How?
Your making the claim defend it.
When would he build this nation?
And what reputation would he have?
Because it seems to be rather hypocritical to demand that he use a reputation for integrity, justice and equality that he has built up over a century of doing a specific action to retroactively do something else.
Because if he did that thing then why would he have the reputation that you want him to be using!
The Cyber-Knight order is not a quantum level structure that can exist both as a heroic knight-errant group with an unimpeachable reputation AND as a conquering ruler of a nation.
That doesn't even BEGIN to touch on how one would go about "unifying" the FoM, which is made up of a loose alliance of nation-states, many of which are lead by individuals with stated interests in not being ruled by some mortal or who are out right evil.

Or how a nation lead by Cyber-Knights would convince the Manastique Imperium to give up its profitable alliance with the C.S. and instead join up with Coake in a confederation of other nation states that even if they unite the entire rest of the continent are still outnumbered and out gunned.

Or why if it was so easy why Lazlo hasn't already done it.

Only one man has the ststus to be more definitative, and it ain't you.


Thanks for your reply.

PS your signature quote is exactly the point of my assertions about The Hobo King. that's ironical.

I think your missing the entire point here. Your so obsessed with your view that Coake has to be a "Hobo King" and is a moral coward and bad guy that you are not willing to even entertain any conflicting view point.
You are fine with making blanket assertions about what is, what the decisions mean, what ramifications are and are not valid...
...but if anyone else does so then they are "wrong" because they are not K.S.
Your fine with claiming that their actions are pointless, or that he doesn't want to empower people, or that he is a coward... on your authority which apparently is good enough to make these unquestionable facts.

I thought that this was a discussion here and not yet another "This is my view you must accept it or else" Bash of the Cyber-Knights and how "Good is Dumb"
I am sorry for the mistake.

[SereneTsunami]

One last thought: a central idea in the Savage Rifts world, and where it changes markedly from classic Rifts, is the whole "Legion of Tomorrow" that Coake helps found a stronghold at Castle Refuge and plays some part in leading and shaping its community (though he still spends much time travelling).

Frankly, I prefer the quasi-quixotic Coake who refuses to compromise his ideals to achieve more meaningful ends.

I know nothing about "Savage Rifts". The setting is different?

[SereneTsunami]

Some of your points are interesting, but they have no place here.

Then why ask the question?
No seriously.
If you are going to ask questions and state that Coake is morally corrupt for his actions then why would defending those actions have no place here?

I am not writing canon(rewriting) as you are when you respond to my questions.

I'm not "rewriting" cannon.
I am stating reasons why it is not justified to make a blanket statement that the Cyber-Knights and Lord Coake are Doing It Wrong and are thus moral cowards and fools.
THAT is rewriting cannon btw...

Those kind of responses kill discussion and make it seem like you have some higher authourity.

It doesn't really seem like your interested in a discussion though.
It seems like you already have your preset conclusion that the Cyber-Knights are cowardly villians and you are only interested in hearing support for it.

I am asking about Coake's choices, his motivations, and the costs of those choices and how they might change the view of his as a character. The same could be said for Tarn and Plato.

Odd.
Because you just told me that trying to explain those choices, motivations and costs had no place here?
Am I to assume then that only views that degrade Coake, Tarn and Plato are vaild here?

Coake *could* be able to use his reputation to balance out the CS. He *could* be able to use his Knights to build a nation.

Okay then.
Humor me.
When?
Where?
How?
Your making the claim defend it.
When would he build this nation?
And what reputation would he have?
Because it seems to be rather hypocritical to demand that he use a reputation for integrity, justice and equality that he has built up over a century of doing a specific action to retroactively do something else.
Because if he did that thing then why would he have the reputation that you want him to be using!
The Cyber-Knight order is not a quantum level structure that can exist both as a heroic knight-errant group with an unimpeachable reputation AND as a conquering ruler of a nation.
That doesn't even BEGIN to touch on how one would go about "unifying" the FoM, which is made up of a loose alliance of nation-states, many of which are lead by individuals with stated interests in not being ruled by some mortal or who are out right evil.

Or how a nation lead by Cyber-Knights would convince the Manastique Imperium to give up its profitable alliance with the C.S. and instead join up with Coake in a confederation of other nation states that even if they unite the entire rest of the continent are still outnumbered and out gunned.

Or why if it was so easy why Lazlo hasn't already done it.

Only one man has the ststus to be more definitative, and it ain't you.


Thanks for your reply.

PS your signature quote is exactly the point of my assertions about The Hobo King. that's ironical.

I think your missing the entire point here. Your so obsessed with your view that Coake has to be a "Hobo King" and is a moral coward and bad guy that you are not willing to even entertain any conflicting view point.
You are fine with making blanket assertions about what is, what the decisions mean, what ramifications are and are not valid...
...but if anyone else does so then they are "wrong" because they are not K.S.
Your fine with claiming that their actions are pointless, or that he doesn't want to empower people, or that he is a coward... on your authority which apparently is good enough to make these unquestionable facts.

I thought that this was a discussion here and not yet another "This is my view you must accept it or else" Bash of the Cyber-Knights and how "Good is Dumb"
I am sorry for the mistake.

I am also. I don't know how to answer you. I think you misunderstood the nature of nearly every sentence I wrote. I apologize for not being more clear. Thanks for your interest.

[taalismn]

Or it could all be explained by short attention span"SQUIRREL!"

[Axelmania]

Lord Coake has the stature and respect to unite North America against the prejudice and hatred of the Coalition, He has chosen not to. He has chosen this knowing full well the end result of an unchecked Coalition. He has chosen to allow the domination of North America by a nation that would commit genoside many times over.

Many times over against xiticix, demons and pest races whose vandalism / overeating endanger others, sure. The CS is not the prime evil in North America, there are other very dangerous forces like Dunscon, Soul Harvesters, bugs, dragon cults, bandits, rampaging beetles, etc. who they help keep in check. Coake has the wisdom to recognize that even if he personally does not need to be as discriminating against D-Bees as they do.

[SereneTsunami]

Lord Coake has the stature and respect to unite North America against the prejudice and hatred of the Coalition, He has chosen not to. He has chosen this knowing full well the end result of an unchecked Coalition. He has chosen to allow the domination of North America by a nation that would commit genoside many times over.

Many times over against xiticix, demons and pest races whose vandalism / overeating endanger others, sure. The CS is not the prime evil in North America, there are other very dangerous forces like Dunscon, Soul Harvesters, bugs, dragon cults, bandits, rampaging beetles, etc. who they help keep in check. Coake has the wisdom to recognize that even if he personally does not need to be as discriminating against D-Bees as they do.

The coalition has it's pros and cons, IMO. One of those being carving out a real civilization from the Dark Ages. Claiming that they are evil is not the same as claiming they have not played a role in mankind's return from near extinction.

I am not saying Coake could or would "Destory" the Coalition. That's not very plausable as the story is set. I'm suggesting that the end result of an unchecked Coalition is the "cleansing" of North America. I'm thinking that Coake should be against that idea and I am questioning the morality of his decision.

Thanks for the post, I do love your pro CS stance.

[Hotrod]

Heroes of Humanity: The genocidal skull-fetish Nazis who outlaw books and breed entire races of slaves are the good guys now!

[Axelmania]

You say genocidal like it's a bad thing, Lazlo's also genocidal. It makes sense in certain situations of very dangerous things. You pretty much have to take genocidal policies to keep certain monsters in check, because even that policy guarantees a small number will survive. Taking pains to try and preserve something which will cockroach anyway is a waste of effort.

The Coalition States are not Nazis. I do not believe they have been described as national socialists anywhere. I believe they would qualify as nationalists but I have not seen them explicitly described as socialists in any books.

skull-fetish

Skulls in US military artwork have been a tradition since WW2, the CS is simply continuing this American tradition. I don't know why people keep bringing this up as if it should be held against them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Why does Superman fight crime and alien invasions, instead of using his powers to rule over a nation or the entire planet?
Probably because his goals don't include conquest or ruling.

[Hotrod]

You say genocidal like it's a bad thing, Lazlo's also genocidal. It makes sense in certain situations of very dangerous things. You pretty much have to take genocidal policies to keep certain monsters in check, because even that policy guarantees a small number will survive. Taking pains to try and preserve something which will cockroach anyway is a waste of effort.

The Coalition States are not Nazis. I do not believe they have been described as national socialists anywhere. I believe they would qualify as nationalists but I have not seen them explicitly described as socialists in any books.

skull-fetish

Skulls in US military artwork have been a tradition since WW2, the CS is simply continuing this American tradition. I don't know why people keep bringing this up as if it should be held against them.

When you look at their uniforms that are based on the WW2 SS, their anti-book stance, their propaganda approach, and their system of government, you're not reminded of fascism? I think it's a pretty clear design choice on Palladium's part. As for the skulls, the U.S. military doesn't design them into body armor, helmets, vehicle fronts, et cetera. Some unit patches aren't the same thing as featuring skulls as a central national motif.

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek with my previous reply. The central design principle of power having a cost applies to the CS in an interesting way. They have power and relative safety at the cost of their basic freedoms. In the world of Rifts, humanity around the world has to be asking what it must become to survive, and the CS's answer isn't pleasant (though it is interesting).

[dreicunan]

The idea that the CS is keeping Atlantis in check is hilarious. Atlantis could take out the Coalition in less than a week while sustaining minimal losses. Splynncryth hasn't conquered Rifts Earth because other powers are out there that would come after it, and HOLDING the world would be next to impossible.

[Hotrod]

The idea that the CS is keeping Atlantis in check is hilarious. Atlantis could take out the Coalition in less than a week while sustaining minimal losses. Splynncryth hasn't conquered Rifts Earth because other powers are out there that would come after it, and HOLDING the world would be next to impossible.

While I agree that Splynncryth could call in his off-world assets and conquer North America, I doubt it would be a cakewalk or involve minimal losses. However, that's a moot point. Splynncryth has no ambitions to do so, and instead has his minions conduct opportunistic raids to acquire slaves and booty for their markets. The CS may not be able to stop a determined invasion, but they are quite capable of fighting off slave barges.

[Mack]

To use an analogy from another fiction: what happened to the Jedi when they ceased being peacekeepers and became soldiers of the Republic?

This illustrates the danger the Cyber Knights would face should they bind themselves to a political (or state) entity, even if it is of their own creation.

[SereneTsunami]

Why does Superman fight crime and alien invasions, instead of using his powers to rule over a nation or the entire planet?
Probably because his goals don't include conquest or ruling.

This is an example of a moral hero who faces similar of choices and Coake I had not thought of. Thanks for posting.

Does the disparity in the power levels of Coake and Kal-El make this a less then perfect comparison?

Does Superman need to rule nations to defeat Darkside? Does Lord Coake need to rule a nation to stave off the CS inevitable "Pest Cleaning"(thats for you, Alex). Hard to say.

THanks again Killer CYborg, your posts almost always make me think. I appreciate it.

[SereneTsunami]

To use an analogy from another fiction: what happened to the Jedi when they ceased being peacekeepers and became soldiers of the Republic?

This illustrates the danger the Cyber Knights would face should they bind themselves to a political (or state) entity, even if it is of their own creation.

Yep, the Jedi is the example in my mind of the kind of entanglements and compromises a Cyber-Knight run/allied government would run into. The Jedi's morals and princiles are repeatedly strained during the Clone Wars, and the Order suffers for it, even tarnishing their image in the process. This tarnishing must be one of Coakes prime concerns for his refusal to do more to protect humanity.

I guess my indictment of Coake comes down to the idea that his choices are selfish, or at least self serving, instead of risking his or the knights reputation for the chance to do a great deal more for humanity. I say this through the prism of the sure knowledge that the CS will dominte NA and the carnage that wil bring to the innocents that the Knights work to protect.

THanks for the post.

[Axelmania]

I think parked Cyber-Knights / Tundra Rangers would just be vulnerable. Harder to target them as nomads. They can stop by the fix up towns who are in trouble but by staying there indefinitely they'd probably just get assassinated.

As dangerous as it was to live in communities in Iraq, it's way more dangerous in Rifts Earth where a simple pistol can fire through a steel wall, where a 1st level shifter can summon an invisible demon-insect to climb under doors and rip throats out the second a helmet is removed.

If you're not there, you live, and can rescue conquered towns and knock off conquerers after THEY park themselves and become vulnerable.

When you look at their uniforms that are based on the WW2 SS,

Classic goalpost-shifting when called out on the skulls. You'll have to be more specific as to which characteristics you mean so I can check to see if anyone besides the SS have similar traits.

their anti-book stance, their propaganda approach, and their system of government, you're not reminded of fascism?

So we've moved from "Nazis" to fascists in general? I don't recall the Nazis being anti-book. I find most cultures have certain books which are prosecuted (America and Britain have done this) and the CS exists in a realm where literacy can allow anyone to cast high-level magic (scrolls) so it is dangerous and should be regulated. Audio/video communication at present day is pretty easy, it's bound to be even easier using recovered golden-age technology, so just use a book-on-tape if you want to share ideas that badly?

Propaganda is something you see in every country today. It is not limited to fascism.

I think it's a pretty clear design choice on Palladium's part. As for the skulls, the U.S. military doesn't design them into body armor, helmets, vehicle fronts, et cetera. Some unit patches aren't the same thing as featuring skulls as a central national motif.

I did not say they were the same, I am saying there is a historical precedent for it. The CS identifies with the boots on the ground, the basic grunt, who loved that kind of stuff. Rifts is more dangerous than any world war has ever been, you are bound to see much more fatalism and skull-embracing than in WW2/Vietnam america.

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek with my previous reply. The central design principle of power having a cost applies to the CS in an interesting way. They have power and relative safety at the cost of their basic freedoms.

What basic freedoms are you referring to?

In the world of Rifts, humanity around the world has to be asking what it must become to survive, and the CS's answer isn't pleasant (though it is interesting).

Any more pleasant alternatives? Let yourselves be ruled by dragons/splugorth perhaps?

[SereneTsunami]

I think parked Cyber-Knights / Tundra Rangers would just be vulnerable. Harder to target them as nomads. They can stop by the fix up towns who are in trouble but by staying there indefinitely they'd probably just get assassinated.

As dangerous as it was to live in communities in Iraq, it's way more dangerous in Rifts Earth where a simple pistol can fire through a steel wall, where a 1st level shifter can summon an invisible demon-insect to climb under doors and rip throats out the second a helmet is removed.

If you're not there, you live, and can rescue conquered towns and knock off conquerers after THEY park themselves and become vulnerable.

That must be why I can find no references to walled towns or people flocking to the safety they provide.

Why can't Cyber-Knights do their hobo routine, AND build up a town, a safe haven, around their monestary, or in another secluded location?

[Killer Cyborg]

Why does Superman fight crime and alien invasions, instead of using his powers to rule over a nation or the entire planet?
Probably because his goals don't include conquest or ruling.

This is an example of a moral hero who faces similar of choices and Coake I had not thought of. Thanks for posting.

Does the disparity in the power levels of Coake and Kal-El make this a less then perfect comparison?

Does Superman need to rule nations to defeat Darkside? Does Lord Coake need to rule a nation to stave off the CS inevitable "Pest Cleaning"(thats for you, Alex). Hard to say.

THanks again Killer CYborg, your posts almost always make me think. I appreciate it.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

I think parked Cyber-Knights / Tundra Rangers would just be vulnerable. Harder to target them as nomads. They can stop by the fix up towns who are in trouble but by staying there indefinitely they'd probably just get assassinated.

As dangerous as it was to live in communities in Iraq, it's way more dangerous in Rifts Earth where a simple pistol can fire through a steel wall, where a 1st level shifter can summon an invisible demon-insect to climb under doors and rip throats out the second a helmet is removed.

If you're not there, you live, and can rescue conquered towns and knock off conquerers after THEY park themselves and become vulnerable.

That must be why I can find no references to walled towns or people flocking to the safety they provide.

Why can't Cyber-Knights do their hobo routine, AND build up a town, a safe haven, around their monestary, or in another secluded location?

They could, if that's what you want them to do in a game that you're the GM for.

[Axelmania]

We do actually have an example of some Cyber-Knights doing this: Magestar. But they aren't doing it alone, they have Magi from Dweomer (secretly guarded by them) and a bunch of Techno-Wizards too.

[kaid]

Heroes of Humanity: The genocidal skull-fetish Nazis who outlaw books and breed entire races of slaves are the good guys now!

Well when the alternative is getting enslaved or worse by demons/devils and being dragged literally into hell than at least if the CS kill you they can't trap your soul for eternity. For all the myriad flaws the CS has and the evil they do nobody can argue they don't hate demons and the supernatural with a white hot passion and are willing to throw the entire power of their nation into fighting demons/devils.

They also were rational enough that when they saw a possible new demon plague starting to immediately go into full out response to smash it as fast as possible before the demons gain to many footholds.

[Hotrod]

Heroes of Humanity: The genocidal skull-fetish Nazis who outlaw books and breed entire races of slaves are the good guys now!

Well when the alternative is getting enslaved or worse by demons/devils and being dragged literally into hell than at least if the CS kill you they can't trap your soul for eternity. For all the myriad flaws the CS has and the evil they do nobody can argue they don't hate demons and the supernatural with a white hot passion and are willing to throw the entire power of their nation into fighting demons/devils.

They also were rational enough that when they saw a possible new demon plague starting to immediately go into full out response to smash it as fast as possible before the demons gain to many footholds.

I think my post gave the wrong impression. I wasn't criticizing the book or the game. Rather, I was reflecting on just how awful the Rifts World is and has become with the Minion Wars. In the context of this topic, the relative inefficacy of the Cyber Knights due to their principled stand against taking sides or building a political power structure leaves the Coalition as the preeminent guardians of humanity by default.

[kaid]

I think one of the problems on rifts earth to try to get a larger political power system for folks like the cyberknights is getting a town or city to critical mass to start getting self sufficient and powerful enough to protect itself. The problem with putting a lot of work trying to elevate smaller towns cities is when they enter the level of being powerful enough to be a juicy target but not big enough to really survive vs a major threat. A lot of the population that exists west of the mississippi that is not in some already existing cities like the colorado baronies survive because they simply don't have anything worth stealing.

The cyber knights don't have any sort of major manufacturing infrastructure that they can spool off so what would be needed to build a nation is not something they really have. Also if they concentrate their forces in one area to build up a city/small nation it decreases their area of influence a great deal and also makes them an easier target for enemies to wipe out. Even if the CS gets pissy at the cyber knights there is no one place they can strike to wipe them out. This is where lazlo/tolkeen and some of the other cities are in serious danger. They are powerful enough to frighten the CS but they simply lack the population for the outcome to really be in doubt if the CS went all in on them. With all of your power in basically one small geographic area it makes them pretty vulnerable to being encircled and wiped out.

Also it probably should be noted that a lot of the population that does exist west of the mississippi is native americans/psi stalkers and other various nomadic populations. A lot of the population that still exists went back to the following the herds style of life and set cities/settlements is not something very useful to such peoples. Having some wandering powerful folks willing to lend a hand when a threat bigger than what a tribes defenders can handle alone can make a great deal of difference. This is also what the tundra rangers are doing as well which is pretty much how the mounties in the past worked as well. A force seen as neutral judges/law keepers to be a go between for various native groups and towns/settlements and broker trade deals/disputes between parties.

[eliakon]

Heroes of Humanity: The genocidal skull-fetish Nazis who outlaw books and breed entire races of slaves are the good guys now!

Well when the alternative is getting enslaved or worse by demons/devils and being dragged literally into hell than at least if the CS kill you they can't trap your soul for eternity.

Neither can Hades or Dyvall.
In fact the only group that has any ability what so ever over souls canonically is the Chinese who get them via subcontracting from their Jade Emperor who sends them the souls of sinners for punishment (or of course those who make the appropriate pacts)

For all the myriad flaws the CS has and the evil they do nobody can argue they don't hate demons and the supernatural with a white hot passion and are willing to throw the entire power of their nation into fighting demons/devils.

That is like saying that the devils are good guys because they hate Hades.

They also were rational enough that when they saw a possible new demon plague starting to immediately go into full out response to smash it as fast as possible before the demons gain to many footholds.

Its a shame that they had been busy spending the last century gutting the continents paranormal defenses though.
I am not willing to give a person credit for trying to fix something that is partially their fault in other words.
ESPECIALLY when everyone else is jumping to do the same thing... and has been the whole time.
So yah, the Nazis finally a hundred and fifty years later bought the same clue that everyone else has had already and realized that "Oh hey, dude! These supernatural beings that we have been genociding all this time? Guess what? Some of them are good guys that are fighting bad guys. Who knew?"

[eliakon]

Heroes of Humanity: The genocidal skull-fetish Nazis who outlaw books and breed entire races of slaves are the good guys now!

Well when the alternative is getting enslaved or worse by demons/devils and being dragged literally into hell than at least if the CS kill you they can't trap your soul for eternity. For all the myriad flaws the CS has and the evil they do nobody can argue they don't hate demons and the supernatural with a white hot passion and are willing to throw the entire power of their nation into fighting demons/devils.

They also were rational enough that when they saw a possible new demon plague starting to immediately go into full out response to smash it as fast as possible before the demons gain to many footholds.

I think my post gave the wrong impression. I wasn't criticizing the book or the game. Rather, I was reflecting on just how awful the Rifts World is and has become with the Minion Wars. In the context of this topic, the relative inefficacy of the Cyber Knights due to their principled stand against taking sides or building a political power structure leaves the Coalition as the preeminent guardians of humanity by default.

Why does it have to be a choice between the CS and the CK?
Why is it a binary condition where if the CK (and only the CK) do not become the rulers of NA then the CS must be?
Why can't it be a choice between the CS and Not-CS where Not-CS is "Any force or alliance of forces that creates a counterbalance sufficient to limit, stop or outweigh the CS and/or have prevented its creation in the first place"?

[Zer0 Kay]

I fail to see how it's cowardly. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no fan of cyber-knights, or any OTHER goody-two-shoes (paladins, Jedi, etc), and I take great delight in bringing them down (killing them, making them 'fall', embarrassing them or making them show themselves to be fools, that kind of thing), but even *I* can't see how you're getting that they're cowards. Being committed to a code that they consider to be more important than any group or nation, while stupid, doesn't strike me as cowardly. Hell, as much as I can't stand them and I like to bring them down, I can at least respect them a little bit simply *because* they stick to their beliefs rather than trying to play kingmaker or worse, sacrificing themselves for a nation that gives no fooks about them. What they do is harder than nation building or throwing their lives away to enrich and build power for someone else.

I can't believe I'm actually saying something positive about cyber knights. It's a good thing I'm just about to jump in the shower; I feel so incredibly dirty.

I am a fan of Jedi and Cyber-Knights, I guess thats why i am being critical. Clinging to a "Code" that prevents you from doing the messy work of nation building, which is MUCH harder then wandering the countryside for free food, is a choice by Lord Coake.

The examples I gave of some of Lord Coake's other possible choices would have made North America a safer and kinder place. He is choosing to stay on the sidelines. If it's not a distaste for nation-building, what is it?

Do you think Coake is too dumb to see where the path that the Coalition's domination of NA leads to? Or has he decided not to fight that battle? I don't believe he is stupid, I believe her has chosen not to stand up to the Coalition.

Not saying I am not open to other ideas, but my case is not easilly dismissed.

Thanks for your thougths.

It was also a choice of the US government with US Marshalls and Circuit Judges of the old west. Simply put it isn't there job nor their expertise and Coake as a Knight from Palladium is probably familiar with what often happens when a Lord places a knight to rule over an area. They often part from the code of Chivalry as they are warriors who will run things like warriors and with the constant aggravation of civilians not acting like soldiers and doing as they're told soon change to heavy handed tactics in order to get what they see as needing to get done in order to operate, in their opinion, a good and proper order. Knights, Soldiers, Police, Priests and Judges are not politicians

[Mack]

A benevolent dictator is still a dictator.

[SereneTsunami]

Heroes of Humanity: The genocidal skull-fetish Nazis who outlaw books and breed entire races of slaves are the good guys now!

Well when the alternative is getting enslaved or worse by demons/devils and being dragged literally into hell than at least if the CS kill you they can't trap your soul for eternity. For all the myriad flaws the CS has and the evil they do nobody can argue they don't hate demons and the supernatural with a white hot passion and are willing to throw the entire power of their nation into fighting demons/devils.

They also were rational enough that when they saw a possible new demon plague starting to immediately go into full out response to smash it as fast as possible before the demons gain to many footholds.

I think my post gave the wrong impression. I wasn't criticizing the book or the game. Rather, I was reflecting on just how awful the Rifts World is and has become with the Minion Wars. In the context of this topic, the relative inefficacy of the Cyber Knights due to their principled stand against taking sides or building a political power structure leaves the Coalition as the preeminent guardians of humanity by default.

That is the thought that I had no hope of putting into wrods as well as you did. Thanks.

[SereneTsunami]

I hear all the reasons why Coake SHOULDN'T or COULDN'T establish a nation led by Cyber-Knights, many of them have merit.

I am claiming that he WOULDN'T. Ask yourself if Lord Coake had discovered the Lone Star Complex in 55PA( before the Coalition) would he have walked away from the opportunity to build a nation that could compete with Chi-Town?

[eliakon]

I hear all the reasons why Coake SHOULDN'T or COULDN'T establish a nation led by Cyber-Knights, many of them have merit.

I am claiming that he WOULDN'T. Ask yourself if Lord Coake had discovered the Lone Star Complex in 55PA( before the Coalition) would he have walked away from the opportunity to build a nation that could compete with Chi-Town?

I think if he had found the complex he would have defended it...
...and then contacted some of his various friends who have the political and scientific expertise for this to come take over for him and that likely New Lazlo would be a democratic TW state in Texas.
By which time he and his knights would have moved on.

[Killer Cyborg]

I hear all the reasons why Coake SHOULDN'T or COULDN'T establish a nation led by Cyber-Knights, many of them have merit.

I am claiming that he WOULDN'T. Ask yourself if Lord Coake had discovered the Lone Star Complex in 55PA( before the Coalition) would he have walked away from the opportunity to build a nation that could compete with Chi-Town?

What about Lord Coake makes you think that he'd be interested in nation-building?