Warlocks and MDC fortifications

[iteration27]

Im a new player to rifts but i've inherited a bunch of books for use.i really liked the warlock class but noticed that earth warlocks seem to build MDC stone fortifications in loads of places,but neither they nor their summoned elementals seem to have the spells or natural abilities to do this.the best they seem able to accomplish is very temporary MDC walls using spells or simple wooden MDC constructions.Am i missing something or is it a case that only NPC warlocks have access to these particular abilities?

[Shark_Force]

a sufficiently thick stone wall has MDC in all but name.

i mean, let's put it this way: there's a 4 foot thick stone wall in front of you. you have an assault rifle with, oh, let's say 2000 rounds of ammo. do you think it is likely that you'll be getting through the wall any time soon? how about if i give you 10,000 rounds? 100,000 rounds? i mean, sure, at some point, you may be able to fire enough bullets at the wall that you'll have made a hole. personally, i'm guessing that long before then your barrel will be worn out, and unless the wall is quite far away you've probably injured yourself somewhere along the way. technically, given enough time with SDC tools you can get through, but practically speaking, the wall may as well be MDC for the purposes of the game, because nobody is going to send in a team of miners to chip away at your wall a few SDC at a time so long as there are people with guns inside defending it.

[iteration27]

ok i understand what youre saying there.So despite there being mention of MDC stone building and the like in various places(bear in mind ive only been reading this stuff for a week) there arent actually any actual MDC stone constructions or ways of making them,just very very very thick SDC stone walls.oh,unless from my understanding,you raise a wall with elemental magic then find a diabolist? to make a ward of permanence to keep it up.on that subject,what would a permanence ward do if the wall was depleted? would it some how regenerate the walls MDC over time or would the be gone for good,despite the constant influx of magic power from the ward?

[guardiandashi]

ok i understand what youre saying there.So despite there being mention of MDC stone building and the like in various places(bear in mind ive only been reading this stuff for a week) there arent actually any actual MDC stone constructions or ways of making them,just very very very thick SDC stone walls.oh,unless from my understanding,you raise a wall with elemental magic then find a diabolist? to make a ward of permanence to keep it up.on that subject,what would a permanence ward do if the wall was depleted? would it some how regenerate the walls MDC over time or would the be gone for good,despite the constant influx of magic power from the ward?

Well there are mdc construction materials you can use and or include they are in mercenary operations and or the black market books I think, but realistically they are prohibitively expensive
Like thousands of credits for the equivalent of a 40 to 60 lb bag of concrete today.

[iteration27]

partly why i was looking for a magical alternative...the other part being for flavour.it disappoints me when a setting includes examples of things which arent actually included in actual game play mechanics.but as a budding GM i can just throw a spell or sank together.more expensive version of the iron wood spell probably,no biggie.
Thanks for the input.

[Shark_Force]

there might be a race-restricted psionic ability in south america... one? maybe 2? can't remember which.

anyways, there's a race of giants (pukara?) that iirc can do something with stone somewhere in south america. making it true MDC may or may not be one of those things. for obvious reasons, rather than buying both south america books, it would probably be better to wait for someone who actually can look that up for you and confirm whether i'm remembering something that doesn't exist or not

(and of course, even if it is true, you may not be interested enough to spend the money for what is essentially less than a single page of material, depending on whether the rest of the stuff in there is of interest to you)

that said, MDC more or less represents a structure that you're not going to get through without dealing absurd amounts of damage on the level of anti-tank weapons, and that pretty much describes a 4-foot thick stone wall for all practical purposes. again, technically you might be able to take a pick to it and get through eventually, but there is a *reason* we use explosives to dig through stone today rather than using pickaxes.

[ShadowLogan]

Im a new player to rifts but i've inherited a bunch of books for use.i really liked the warlock class but noticed that earth warlocks seem to build MDC stone fortifications in loads of places,but neither they nor their summoned elementals seem to have the spells or natural abilities to do this.the best they seem able to accomplish is very temporary MDC walls using spells or simple wooden MDC constructions.Am i missing something or is it a case that only NPC warlocks have access to these particular abilities?

"Encase Object in Stone" (Level 3 Earth), could be a bit time consuming but it would work (nothing says the Warlock can't encase a Stone with the magical one and use it as building bricks).

"Petrification" (Level 7 Earth) might also work

Could extrapolate from the Wall spells for using normally created walls. You just have to find "mdc stone", even w/o "mdc stone" you are still looking at bulk effect of all that SDC being MDC for all practical purposes (as Shark_Force said). I don't know of anything in Rifts that addresses this (stone specifically), but in Palladium Fantasy 2E (pg46-7) they have generic SDC stats for various materials and Stone Walls essentially has 1-6MDC per 10ft^2 (no mention of volume) depending on type of all, which is stronger than the Warlock's Stone Wall spell (which is an 8x8x2ft volume, or 64 or 16 sq ft).

Or use the Wall Spells and get a permanency ward place on them (requires knowing a Diabolist though).

Spell Chains might also work like Ironwood => Wood to Stone (Level 6 Earth).

Stone Pryamids (WB2 Atlantis, BoM Powers of the Pryamid #4) are treated as having MDC, but it isn't clear if this is the result of some magical transformation, selection of the right material (ie MDC stone), or simple bulk SDC acting as MDC (planets are essentially SDC, but they can soak MDC hits...)

there might be a race-restricted psionic ability in south america... one? maybe 2? can't remember which.

Pucara Red Giant RCC in South America 2 (pg54-5).

[iteration27]

my problem is that when you compare modern materials you get walls that have hundreds of MDC compared to an SDC wall of similar dimensions,so to have an SDC wall of comparable toughness,it has to be hundreds of feet thick otherwise even simple MDC small arms will blast through it in a matter of seconds.A simple vagabond with a D6 MDC pistol will breach my EQUIVALENT 6MDC wall in a matter of seconds.for my purposes i need the durability of my towns defenses to be a bit sturdier than that.therefore SDC just doesnt make the grade,unless i want the structure of my of my town,due to SDC materials to be more the size of a city.no,i need MDC materials...at least for the towns defensive wall.because i highly doubt ANYONE on RIFTS earth is going to attempt breaching massive stone walls using SDC weapons.The main geezer in my place is a pretty powerful demigod stone master with the godling power of earth elementalism,hes going to be responsible for the construction of most of this town.Its actually a town and a mercenary encampment,so im very serious about having a good defensive ability for the place.but its not a regular mercenary force that occupies it.its made of of magic using types almost exclusively and its going to be pretty isolated and hidden as much as possible.its relying on magic for almost everything as the population tends to shun much of high technology and is pretty much completely self reliant.

some of the uses for elemental magic are interesting,although cumbersome...there is access to a single diabolist,but supplying him with dragon and demon bones is an issue,as demons discorporate when killed so you need to kill them in their demonic realms to harvest their bones and dragons...well...

ive looked up the pucara...unlikely solution too rare,too location specific and it takes their ability 1-6 hrs to enhance a single piece of stone anyway,so too cumersome unless you have a large group of them working in concert.oh and thanks for the concern over my wallet lol but i inherited alot of books...as far as i can tell i have the majority of them,so i can look up most things,i think.

iron wood+wood to stone is interesting though...but im of a mind it would transform it to ordinary stone,as the spell doesnt,itself,make MDC stone...although it doesnt explicitly poo poo that idea either,so maybe that might be a good house rule to implement.

Stone pyramids must be MDC through dint of their mystical nature and connection to and control of the leyline energy which they absorb and are infused with...i doubt they are fake MDC(high SDC) as i feel they have to be mant times more massive to have so much equivalent MDC.unfortunately i cant see under the stone master an actual explanation for this,so the previous assumption seems most plausible,which doesnt help with other kinds or MDC building,as nothing of that nature is mentioned under the class.

So it seems the only REAL options modern materials,a class of aggressive psychic giants from a remote part of the world,or imaginative but cumbersome and time consuming use of elemental magics.Or just making something up.

thanks guys...your ideas,i really speeded up my research...so many bloody books to look through to find this stuff.

[Sohisohi]

partly why i was looking for a magical alternative...the other part being for flavour.it disappoints me when a setting includes examples of things which arent actually included in actual game play mechanics.but as a budding GM i can just throw a spell or sank together.more expensive version of the iron wood spell probably,no biggie.
Thanks for the input.

In coalition war 5, it talks about the Barrens of the Mississippi River. Here you get a list of a whole bunch of semi-"natural" stone structures that a magical faction utilizes against the CS. At one point it outright states that these structures are transfigure; though depending which definition of the word you use, you'll either believe these structures are raised magically or instead occurred "naturally" (magic might be involved, by not via any particular mage) and simply modified for use. Though, then again, some of the defenses are too utilitarian/consistent to actually be produced randomly.

Regardless, in my honest opinion, mages just find places that naturally give them their desired utility and simply build-on/carve-out what they need. If they can't, then I suspect they just pay someone to move regular SDC rock/soil because enough of it effectively makes it an MDC structure. Even destitute mages can trade/force regular plebs to move rocks/dirt.

[iteration27]

yes i read through some of the siege stuff and remember noting these fortification and there was mention of fortifications and towers being raised by warlocks and used as Gun nests...but still,warlocks dont have the explicit ability,nor do elementals,to raise such structures and certainly not MDC structures.but lets say they did raise those structures.if SDC they wouldnt be worth much as a defence as the massive coalition MDC onslaughts would instantly obliterate them...if they were MDC then warlocks can indeed do such things.but im beginning to see a trend in this system,where what is written in story text isnt necessarily what is presented as possible in the rules as written for use by players.leaving it upto the GM to determine how these things,which are clearly possible in terms of how the world is presented,are accomplished.

Yes of course,keeping an eye to naturally occurring defensive features is something one would keep in mind when choosing a site for a settlement of fortified outpost or whatever,but due to the nature of the world,something more is often needed to insure a greater measure of safety...and seeing as certain things are clearly possible,if not detailed,then it just makes me want to know the details so that i can use them if the need or desire to use them comes up.

But like i said earlier,its no biggie.GM creation or modification is always an option.i just prefer to use actual existing material where possible,just to keep things simple and addition to a minimum.especially as i'll be first time GMing a game ive never played before with a group who has alot of experience with the system.they all have a good idea of what is and what isnt aswell as the baggage of already established house rule from the games theyve already played and i dont want to take away all the mods theyre used to in addition to adding a whole different set of new rules that theyre not.so keeping it as simple and canon as possible is what im looking for in regards to the rules.

[Sohisohi]

but im beginning to see a trend in this system,where what is written in story text isnt necessarily what is presented as possible in the rules as written for use by players. leaving it upto the GM to determine how these things,which are clearly possible in terms of how the world is presented,are accomplished. [...] But like i said earlier,its no biggie.GM creation or modification is always an option.i just prefer to use actual existing material where possible,just to keep things simple and addition to a minimum.especially as i'll be first time GMing a game ive never played before with a group who has alot of experience with the system.

Mate, welcome to Rifts!
Where rules are not just missing, but some of them actually hinder play.

Anyway the point I'm making is that you shouldn't undermine SDC material because "Giant (Flat-Topped) Mounds", effectively a small butte, can have 6000MDC at only 120ft tall and 400ft thick. You could walk up and just kick the edge of it; it would crack/crumble a bit, but as a mass it's effectively 6000mdc. I just see it as the more SDC material you pack in, the higher of a multiplier it gets. But, there are no rules for it... So it's a GM call and likely always will.

[iteration27]

lol yeah,ive been readin this stuff for about a week and already i can see its filled with glaring inconsistencies,contradictions,omissions and just plain lacksasensical material.its more work to work all this stuff out than it is to write an actual campaign.
Its got a great amount of imagination and content though,which is where the popularity obviously springs from.But i can see im never gonna be able to keep as by the book as i was expecting.so many things i already want to change.like im definitely giving giant robots and vehicles some kind of natural? AR...i dont like infantry weapons being able to threaten them as much as vehicle/robot weapon systems,so infantry will have to defeat an armour rating with their personal weapons when fighting juggernauts.but thats a whole other topic.

[Eagle]

Earth warlocks, especially at medium to high level, can move enough dirt that his opponent won't know where to shoot.

Let's say you've got Bob, 6th level Earth Warlock. He casts the 3rd level spell, Create Mound. At his level, it will last 2 hours. It will create a 60 foot long, 30 foot wide, 30 foot tall hill. That's a pretty darn big mound. It costs him 8 PPE and takes him one action to do it. If he's just an average warlock (HTH Basic, average PPE rolls), he's probably got about 120 PPE and he'll have 5 attacks a round at that level. He should be able to cast it 15 times before he runs out of juice. That's a lot of hills (or one big hill).

Or, he can cast the 5th level spell, Little Mud Mound, which gives him an elemental buddy. That buddy will have 100 PPE and can also cast spells of its own (including Create Mound). Bob the warlock can cast this spell 4 times, meaning he's got 400 PPE on tap for these sorts of shenanigans. Even assuming that the Mud Mound can't create quite the same size hills (it doesn't have a caster level listed, but it can cast up to 4th level spells), that's still a hell of a lot of earth mounds.

Sure, feel free to fire your little laser pistol at the mountains of dirt that tower above you. These hills probably have millions of SDC. You might as well fire your gun directly into the ground, because that's what you're doing. It's not a "fortification" in the traditional sense of something like a castle. But it's a massive ambush point, and gives you excellent concealment. It covers such a large area that your opponents won't know where to shoot.

Of course, Major Earth Elementals have like 1400 PPE, and cast at 10th level. So imagine someone who can cast Create Mound that is 100 feet long, 50 feet wide, 50 feet high. And it can cast it 175 times (which would take about 7 minutes). Think you can't make a pretty confusing maze in that time?

[iteration27]

oh yeah sure,im already a huge fan of warlocks.earth warlocks in particular.and what youre saying is absolutely right,for impromptu spot defenses.the OCC is incredibly powerful...although i find it mildly disconcerting that they dont have any personal magical defenses like the invocators armour of ithan...but a 400 MDC wall suddenly raised between you and your attackers can mitigate that to some degree,although might not be suitable for some situations.my main question was more about permanent structures that im led to believe they can raise or construct,which they actually cant.a wall or mound is good...but no good if im not around to cast or maintain it.on the subject of personal armour spells,i did actually find one in the mysteries of magic for the earth warlock,but the stuff is so heavy when cast that i can see it simply incapacitating most average warlocks when cast on themselves,seein as it primarily a PFRP spell and characters seem to be,well,less buff in that dimension.is it supposed to be unwearably heavy or is there some kind of errata on that to make it more commonly useable?

[Shark_Force]

i suspect the weight of the stone armour is intended for purposes other than the wearer's weight capacity. as in, that becomes a concern if you're on the second floor of a building that isn't designed to support large amounts of stone in a humanoid shape walking around, or if someone tries to shove you out of the way while wearing it.

anyways, if the entire objective is to simply have the character provide MDC defenses... why not just use MDC wood created via ironwood? is there a compelling reason why it absolutely must be stone and not wood?

also, i suspect you're overestimating how much MDC means against an army. let's say you make a bunker out of stone that is, oh, let's call it 1,000 MDC. now, that sounds like a lot. but put it up against 10 CS soldiers with laser rifles that do 4d6 MD per action, and presume they have +2 to hit from WP. they will be outputting something like 105 damage per action. at 4 actions per round, that isn't even enough MDC to last one minute. if you make that 100 soldiers, the bunker is just gone in the first action. and i doubt the bunkers have even that much, so it might not even be a full melee round of protection against 10 people.

large numbers of people can do a lot of damage quickly

[iteration27]

my concern with the armour is its actually far to heavy for a warlock of average strength to wear and not fall over...but its just a minor consideration when its a RIFTS character who might have higher strength through a wider range of skills or superior racial strength of some kind...just a small wonder.

yes point taken...but a MDC wall is better than an SDC wall and im sure attackers wouldnt just be left to hammer the wall away.they'd have to deal with defenders hammering them away so by necessity concentrate some of their fire on the attackers,thus taking longer to destroy said wall,or make a concerted effort to blast that wall quickly and lose more of their number in the process.

But yes MDC is only so useful...but more useful than none at all.dont want those coalition soldiers just strolling through where the wall would have been and gutting the place before an organized defence could even be thought about.of course we're not taking into account early warning of such events,spells like illusiory terrain of forest or whatever,to hide large areas in the first place and the aforementioned natural defences from an earlier reply and whatever else a magical community may have to call upon.But the answer to my core question remains the same despite all thats been said.do magical MDC fortifications exist and can i erect them using a character...yes they do and no i cant.

[iteration27]

oh,i realized you asked a question i didnt respond to.so sorry about that.

is there a reason it HAS to be stone and not iron wood...yes and no.it could be iron wood...its the only real contender without resorting to modern materials and rules additions.but stone just appeals to me more.for 3 reasons,i guess.

1.its going to be better than wood,its stone.
2.for ascetic reasons...i just prefer the look,the texture,the imposing nature of stone...always gotta nod to a personal sense of style.
3.the rules pretty much tell me its not an option,which makes me want it more.

but no,doesnt have to be stone,just want stone,must have stone...why no stone?:(

[Axelmania]

supplying him with dragon and demon bones is an issue,as demons discorporate when killed so you need to kill them in their demonic realms to harvest their bones

Who says you need to kill them to harvest their bones? Just hack off a limb and leave them alive. Demons who regenerate limbs are particularly useful here. They are treasures to find.

[iteration27]

the characters involved would never leave a demon alive,which means,if it doesnt try to escape,it'll end up dead and im certain its severed limb would discorporate with the rest of it...and,not to argue,but does it say anywhere that a severed demon limb doesnt just discorporate anyway,once remove from the body?

[iteration27]

oh wait...demons who regenerate limbs lol ok,thats viable...but do they all regenerate limbs and if not do the non regenerating demons discorporate severed limbs? is it written anywhere or is it just assumed?

and a demon who can regenerate a limb...well theres nothing to say his severed limb doesnt discorporate anyway way...god i made a mess of that reply.

[Shark_Force]

just fyi, there is an edit function, and it is generally considered poor netiquette in most forums i have ever been in to make multiple sequential posts rather than editing a single one or addressing multiple points or posts in a single one (sadly, i don't think these forums have a multiquote function, but if you open a new window with the quote post option you can copy that and paste it into another post if you want).

anyways, to be clear: essentially, i am suggesting that the warlock spell to create stone armour is probably intended to have the armour support itself, for movement, balance,and so forth. the weight, in other words, applies to how other things in the world interact with you while wearing the armour, not in how you interact with the armour. how does that work? why, magic of course. for whatever reason, that rhino trying to shove you off a cliff has to contend with the mass of the armour, but you don't need to contend with the mass of the armour when climbing a rope (except inasmuch as the rope itself must be strong enough to not snap under the weight, but so long as it is strong enough you can climb it with no more difficulty than if you weren't covered in rock).

[Mack]

If you want to give an Earth Warlock an armor spell, I recommend the Iron Hide power from the Elemental Fusionist (RUE, p103).

[iteration27]

as far as im aware,its an elemental fusionist unique ability and not an actual elemental spell...which would preclude me from taking it,unless youre telling me made legal in another book.im pretty certain its not in the conversion book

[iteration27]

sharkforce i missed your response there,sorry.um yeah im not used to this forum stuff.dont really use the net for much except looking for stuff and the odd game,so i apologise most humbly for my etiquette or lack there of(why IS it considered bad etiquette?)

anyway...ok thats a good explanation for why it might have a horrendous weight listed and i'll accept it because this game gives me a headache

[Mack]

as far as im aware,its an elemental fusionist unique ability and not an actual elemental spell...which would preclude me from taking it,unless youre telling me made legal in another book.im pretty certain its not in the conversion book

You're correct, it's a unique ability and not a legal spell for a Warlock. I'm saying do it anyway. As the GM you have that authority.

Rule One of all Palladium products is "Have fun."
Rule Two is that if something doesn't fit for your gaming table, change it. The published books are written as more of a guide than a definitive set of rules. The system creator prefers to leave things open and loose so that GM's can tailor it as they see fit. There is no 'wrong way' to enjoy the game. So if you believe an Earth Warlock should have a decent armor spell: give him one!

[iteration27]

I'd like a decent armour spell,but i dont think its entirely necessary.and there are the two weirdly heavy options in MoM.so little choice,yet so much choice...what options do other warlocks get for physical defence? just the turn into elemental type creature higher level spells?do i even want the extra mental strain of that question?

[Shark_Force]

water and air warlocks get spells to conjure swords that you can use to parry ranged attacks (normally dodging requires an action and parrying is mostly impossible). air warlocks also tend to get much better range on their spells, and just better offensive spells in general, as well as a barrier that can prevent a lot of damage (although that's high level). fire warlocks get impervious to fire, and the ability to see through smoke combined with a bunch of ways to make lots and lots of smoke.

earth warlocks, of course, can make themselves ironwood armour, hide behind their summons which are decidedly more solid than anything made of fire or air, and create walls on very short notice to provide cover. they generally are not extremely lacking in defensive utility, but on the flip side tend to be somewhat lacking offensively (although a good laser rifle can fix that easily enough)

and all of them can wear regular body armour as well, of course. and use regular laser rifles.

if i was going to attempt to make warlocks more equal, i'd probably be asking how to buff water and fire warlocks, who generally have much less variety in their spell selection than earth and especially air, which is probably the most powerful kind of warlock by a significant margin, at least in the rifts setting.

[Axelmania]

DB10 added the death-discorporation but I'm not aware of anything about partial discorporation of severed limbs. Necromancers can attach demon parts to themselves, wouldn't be possible if you could only get small fragments from discorporation deaths.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

my problem is that when you compare modern materials you get walls that have hundreds of MDC compared to an SDC wall of similar dimensions,

Out of wood, or concrete, or cinderblocks, maybe. Honest-to-goodness "stone", though, is an entirely different beast.

so to have an SDC wall of comparable toughness,it has to be hundreds of feet thick otherwise even simple MDC small arms will blast through it in a matter of seconds.A simple vagabond with a D6 MDC pistol will breach my EQUIVALENT 6MDC wall in a matter of seconds.for my purposes i need the durability of my towns defenses to be a bit sturdier than that.therefore SDC just doesnt make the grade,unless i want the structure of my of my town,due to SDC materials to be more the size of a city.no,i need MDC materials...

I think this is just a missaprehension on your part. A granite wall that is 3-4 feet thick would have thousands of SDC per segment, maybe even tens of thousands. Granite, for instance, or any other hard stone, is an order of magnitude stronger than things like sandstone or cinder blocks or even most cements (though they are closer).

The only real difference between a granite wall and an MDC Megacrete wall is that technically the granite is still an SDC structure and can (eventually) be destroyed with SDC tools. They probably have about the same total number of equivalent MDC (though the Megacrete wall may only be 1-2 feet thick, perhaps - though its all conjecture as thickness is never listed). Actually.. looking at Megacrete... 12 MDC per six foot section of wall is actually pretty laughable. Given that the best "stone" we get stats for in the basic SDC list (i had to pick up Heroes, as i dont remember where it is in RUE and didn't feel like looking it up, but i know its a copypasta) is Reinforced Concrete at 600 SDC per section (undefined size, though most "sections" of walls or hulls listed are 10ft, so lets go with that)....

Megacrete isn't really all that much better. I'd actually say that for a given width of wall, 3-4ft thick granite is probably BETTER than Megacrete. If Reinforced Concrete (meaning Concrete + Rebar) is 600 SDC for 10ft... i'd easily call granite twice that, or even more. I can smash a concrete wall and immediately take chunks out of it with my 10lb sledge. I can hit a piece of granite and barely leave a scratch on it with the same sledge (much to my dislike, as i have a pair of extremely large granite boulders in my back yard that i'd like to destroy/move).

Also, Earth Warlocks have another trick up their sleeves at a fairly mid-level of power -

Ironwood.

It straight up converts wood, point-for-point, into MDC. It's unbelievably good.

The SDC listed for an "Exterior Wall, Wood" - which i would take to mean 2x4 studs with a sheathing of 3/4" flakeboard or plywood, industry-standard in home-building - is 150. That's 150MDC.

Oh.. don't forget that he can also Create Wood, so getting the wood in the first place is not exactly hard.

Build your stone wall and sheathe it in Ironwood plates. You're doing better than most high-tech cities at this point, and better than the hulls of large Three-Galaxies space ships.

Also, you can replace the Ironwood plates as needed for battle damage.

Edit: a... while back (quite a while now) Killer Cyborg did a "fix up this town for 500,000 credits" challenge. That's exactly how i built the walls. You should be able to find it by looking through my or KCs post history, or a name search for the title with the 500,000 credits.

[guardiandashi]

if I was feeling really cheezy i'd look hard at building a layered wall for defences.
you start with a bunch of ironwood and stone.
star by putting up your ~1-2ft thick "starter wall" such as with wall of stone. then plank it with ironwood, then take more ironwood and encase the ironwood planks with the "encase in stone" so you have this stone block with a ironwood center and layer them against your reinforced stone wall.

another thing you have to remember is I don't think they ever really specify thicknesses for walls, but with stone construction I would probably assume that the specified sdc/mdc is per foot of thickness if you look and read up on real fortifications a foot is in most cases a joke, like the outer layer. another point is if you look at things like medeval castle and fortress construction a lot of them will have an outer wall say 2-3 ft thick, and an inner wall also ~2-3 ft thick, and the space in between filled with various things like stone and similar packed and then paved over.

if they were using concrete they likely would pour the inner and outer walls using forms, then pull off the forms and fill the space in between with more rebar and concrete.

[ShadowLogan]

my problem is that when you compare modern materials you get walls that have hundreds of MDC compared to an SDC wall of similar dimensions,so to have an SDC wall of comparable toughness,it has to be hundreds of feet thick otherwise even simple MDC small arms will blast through it in a matter of seconds

Except that even high levels of MDC, when it takes damage you could still put a hole in the wall just like blasting out a part of the SDC wall (which should depelete damage going forward) with a simple laser pistol. There is an example of someone shooting up a door, the shots did not depelete the SDC but still would put holes in it (this example still applies to MDC).

And I'm not aware of to many "modern" materials that would result in that much of a difference. Most Rifts stuff doesn't consider the MDC per unit of area, just the item in question. megacrete (2MDC per sq ft) and MD Armor Plating (1.3MDC per sq ft) building materials (in MercOps) really aren't that much better (.1-.6 depending on the wall) and at worst case x20 and at best ~4x more material.

You DO have options:
1. Convert to a pure SDC setting. That would seem to solve the issue you are having quickly.
2. Go with it as is, maybe fudge the number/results to.
3. Make a laminate stone walls, where the external sides are stone but that is over ironwood (someone suggested)
4. Create a spell/rituals(s) to do what you need (Nightbane line has such guidelines in one of the SBs, "Through the Glass Darkly" IINM), though you might be able to adapt existing spell/rituals
5. Elemental possession of the SDC structure(s) to turn them into MDC. Technically elemental essenses can posses objects to animate them, and normally they appear humanoid (text allows for other shapes), but the possession results in an MDC structure on Rifts Earth (or MD environments).
6. Make "natrually" occurring MDC stone an option (maybe pick something that is very hard on the Mohs hardness scale). There ARE MDC stone D-Bees/aliens/etc available (either RAW or via random table rolls in Phaseworld IINM), so there must be some "natural" MDC stone.
7. Create a TW Device to accomplish the "mdc stone" (this requires working out a spell chain that makes sense, I don't know if there is one).

(sadly, i don't think these forums have a multiquote function, but if you open a new window with the quote post option you can copy that and paste it into another post if you want).

Palladium Forums DO support multi-quote functions. You have to do each individually and be in the "Full Editor" reply page.

[kaid]

If you want to give an Earth Warlock an armor spell, I recommend the Iron Hide power from the Elemental Fusionist (RUE, p103).

I think there is one specifically for earth warlocks in the PFRPG secrets of magic book if I recall correctly. It is a bit bulky but decent protection.

[dragonfett]

If you want to give an Earth Warlock an armor spell, I recommend the Iron Hide power from the Elemental Fusionist (RUE, p103).

I think there is one specifically for earth warlocks in the PFRPG secrets of magic book if I recall correctly. It is a bit bulky but decent protection.

They already covered that further up in the thread.

I personally think that the spell Dig can be used to create fortifications from the Dirt that are permanent. The only thing to do at that point is to figure out what the MDC of the Earth is...

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

there is a *reason* we use explosives to dig through stone today rather than using pickaxes.

I contend that reason is because pickaxes don't go BOOM! or create such an entertaining visual display.

Now i'm thinking of magic pickaxes with sound effects and flying debris.

[taalismn]

Ewww....gotta study this thread...I was going to ask if anybody had a listing of comparable fortification building materials with regards to stone, megacrete, steel, wood, etc(though if anybody knows of a comparable all-in-one listing/thread, please let me know).

[ShadowLogan]

Ewww....gotta study this thread...I was going to ask if anybody had a listing of comparable fortification building materials with regards to stone, megacrete, steel, wood, etc(though if anybody knows of a comparable all-in-one listing/thread, please let me know).

I don't know if its buried in the Robotech Forum here or if it was pruned. At one time I looked at the Total MDC to Mass Ratio for ALL the Palladium Books I had access to (for MDC settings) and posted there. I still have the compiled data, but I can't seem to find the thread here, or my writeup analysis on it (not surprising given all the harddrive "resets" I've done in the past 10years, and I know it included 2E RT.

Edit: Found it (2011... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=121038). Not sure if this will help or have what your looking for off hand.

[taalismn]

[
Edit: Found it (2011... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=121038). Not sure if this will help or have what your looking for off hand.

Well, every little bit helps. Thanks.

[Axelmania]

In the interest of creating a corpse wall, if I use magical weapons to create infinite Zavor and then beat them to death with non-magical wood weapons, do you think their corpses would continue to be immune to magic or would that property leave them with their souls?

Basically, do natural abilities persist after death? Does the corpse of a fire dragon continue to be immune to fire, etc?

[Sohisohi]

In the interest of creating a corpse wall, if I use magical weapons to create infinite Zavor and then beat them to death with non-magical wood weapons, do you think their corpses would continue to be immune to magic or would that property leave them with their souls?

Basically, do natural abilities persist after death? Does the corpse of a fire dragon continue to be immune to fire, etc?

I'm fairly sure that is not the case; though if it exists, it likely is in one of the magic heavy books.

[Blue_Lion]

Ewww....gotta study this thread...I was going to ask if anybody had a listing of comparable fortification building materials with regards to stone, megacrete, steel, wood, etc(though if anybody knows of a comparable all-in-one listing/thread, please let me know).

I am not familiar with an official list. I do not know of a comparable all in one listing but it is house rules not canon.

[iteration27]

Geez,mans away for a couple days...

Lots of food for thought here.maybe my thinking is way too
2-dimensional at the moment.I ve think ive got MY answer out of all this though.But my campaign seems to have taken different direction,due to input from my players about what they'd like to do.I'm actually making a community of super powered individuals,in the deep deep west,well beyond the normally settled areas.which gives me a whole different set of solutions,aswell as problems.

[taalismn]

there is a *reason* we use explosives to dig through stone today rather than using pickaxes.

I contend that reason is because pickaxes don't go BOOM! or create such an entertaining visual display.

Now i'm thinking of magic pickaxes with sound effects and flying debris.

TW pickaxe with Shatter or Megadamage Punch cast on it..or maybe Spinning Blades.
Or use Gargoyle Blast Studs incorporated into the pickaxe, powered by an e-clip in the haft.

[RockJock]

For what it is worth, I feel like the Warlock spell chain makes sense. BTW, I have lost my mind and put some math towards the bottom of this post.

Page 157 of the original Mercs book mentions a group firing from behind cover proving another 1,200 SDC/12MDC. It doesn't say how physically thick the rock protection is, but HU, and the Warlocks spell description has plenty of give some numbers for Dirt to Clay/Clay to Stone.

Here are a few other tidbits that add to me buying using regular stone as effectively MDC. MiO talks about the Earth base being protected by thousands of SDC/MDC per foot (MiO pg 37), which to me backs up the idea of a large enough SDC stone wall working as MDC in practice. MiO also has the sand caster idea to disperse beams. The Stonemaster description in the first Atlantis book takes this line as well by saying if you drop a couple of hundred pounds of SDC rock on something it does MDC damage.

So for a little math.....
150-200lbs per cubic foot is a decent estimate on the weight of solid rock. So if we take the average and call it 175lbs per cubic ft, and use the CB1 wall of stone example at level 1 you get a 8'x8'x4' (256 cubic ft) wall weighing in at around 22 tons(44,800lbs).

You do get more MDC from the Stone Wall spell as you go up in level, along with a larger wall, but I am going with the idea of the density if you will staying the same. Converting dirt to clay costs 6 PPE per 50lbs per level, and clay to stone for 20 per 50lbs per level, so 26 PPE for the whole process for a 50lbs rock. So a 1st level Warlock takes a huge amount of PPE to make an 8'x8x'4' permanent stone wall with 50 worth of MDC (896 castings times 26 PPE for the whole process for a whopping 23,296 PPE), but much more manageable for say a 10th level Warlock(90 castings for 2,340 PPE), and much more doable with elemental help.


Note: I didn't take into account things like using a Little Mud Mound to cast the Dirt to Clay spells, or summoning a minor/major elemental to help.

Note 2: I assumed that when the MDC of the Wall of Stone goes up per level(50 mdc per level) that is the wall at the maximum dimensions, and the rock isn't getting any stronger, just more rock is created. So a a 500 MDC wall would be 10 times thicker than the 50 MDC wall(8'x8'x40"=2560 cubic feet of stone for 500mdc versus 256cu ft of stone for 50 MDC). This is all kinda pointless, but basically you get roughly 0.2 MDC per cubic foot of stone.

It is late and I'm losing my own train of thought:)

[ShadowLogan]

@RockJock
And it takes a PS of 60 to lift the wall enough to crawl out from under it if it gets dropped on you. So we have minimum weights that can be calculated.

Assuming PS of 60 is normal:
-at normal PS and combined for all standard (not 17+) rate that would indicate 1200lbs
-at normal PS and combined, but using the 17+ rate that would indicate 2400lbs
-IF it is Robot or SuperNatural level, weight just goes up.

[RockJock]

Then you get into the whole issue is it lifting the whole wall, or the section directly above.

[Redmace]

Look up dragons and gods. You`re thinking about this from a spell perspective but the stats for major earth elementals will show you that they can make 200 lbs of SDC or MDC stone per PPE point they want to put into it. The book says they can use this to throw at enemies but you can also use that to build any structure. ( provided you have a stone master with you) however since you

[Redmace]

Look up dragons and gods. You`re thinking about this from a spell perspective but the stats for major earth elementals will show you that they can make 200 lbs of SDC or MDC stone per PPE point they want to put into it. The book says they can use this to throw at enemies but you can also use that to build any structure. ( provided you have a stone master with you) however since you are talking about walls it`s not too hard for a major earth elementals to use that ability to make big walls

[Redmace]

In Dragons and Gods ( which is a Palladium Fantasy book so I understand why you don`t have this information) it says that Major Earth Elementals have the ability to create 200 pound blocks of stone per 1 PPE so with the help of a single stone master, an earth Warlock and his Major Earth Elemental could build literally anything including walls of stone. My character who is a 14th level warlock and 10th level Stone Master can build whole buildings all by himself. Also fun fact the Major Elementals can summon 4d6 minor elementals four times a day.