do traps damage the main body.

[eliakon]

GMG pg 39
A "Called Shot" is an aimed shot that homes in on a specific part of a larger target such as the head, hand, gun, or radio on a character or the radio antenna, sensor cluster, spotlight, tires, etc., of a vehicle. An aimed, "Called Shot" is necessary to strike the tiny bull's-eye of a target, the sensor eye of a robot, or the gun held in an attacker's hand (the target is the gun, not the person holding it). To make a called shot, the player must "call" or "announce" his character's intension; i.e. "I'm going to shoot the gun from his hand.


pg 361 RUE
a called shot target specification. This is a shot that homes in on a specific part of a larger target, such as a bull's-eye. an opponent's head, hand, gun, radio antenna, sensor cluster, spotlight, tires, ect. but counts as two melee attacks.

To make a called shot the player must call or announce his charters intent.

Rifts RPG pg 40(obsolete)
A character may attempt to shoot a specific target or area. This is done by clearly stating what the exact target is before the roll to strike is made. Once the shot is "called", the player rolls the usual 1D20 to strike. A successful roll, above a 12, hits exactly whatever the intended target was, unless the opponent dodges. Called shots can be an important strategy enabling characters to disable robots and military vehicles rather than destroy the whole unit. This means a character can destroy specific targets on robots and vehicles, such as radar antennas, weapon barrels, sensors, mechanical legs, arms, etc. Note: Any shot which is not called will strike what is identified as the main body of the robot or vehicle. The main body is the largest, bulkiest part of the target and most likely to be hit. If a player calls his shot, but misses by rolling under 12, but above 4, he/she still strikes, but hits the main body instead of the specific, "called" target. I avoid random hit location tables because I feel the randomness is too flukey and unrealistic.



While it does say a charter with the WP can make a called shot, and also says a charter with no gun proficiency can not make called shot. It never clearly states it is required to have a WP to make a called shot with non gun weapons/attacks. The statement about making are found in the section covering modern WP. The mechanics of called shots never state that you need a skill to make a called shot, just that you announce the attempt.

My conclusion is that the book does say that guns(to include energy weapons) require a WP to make a called, but does not state that a WP is required to make a called shot out side of guns. So I would say that would be a GM call. I would rule that guns would require a WP to make a called shot(do to needing to able to aim them) other types of attacks do not, after all a dragon or dog boy does not have a WP for teeth and I do not see a dog boy as not being able to bite some one on the arm.

I would like to point out that the GMG is not RUE compliant.
Therefore it isn't really a good source of rules information. Especially information that appears to contradict the RUE core book.

Thus, as written RAW only modern weapons can make called shots (hence the name 'shot'), and they require a WP to make them
That may not be RAI, or RAP (Rules as Played) but that is what the book allows for.
Now if there is a canon, RUE compliant ruleing that says otherwise... I'm all ears. But a RMB era rule is not one of those things.

I am sorry where does it say that it requires a WP to make a called shot?
I see that you can not make called shots with guns (including energy weapons) without a WP, and it lists the abilty to do called shots with guns wp. But it never says you need a WP and as the mechanics description just requires announcing it no listed requirement of WP mechanically it is not stated.
In this case GMG description of the mechanic appears to be a expanded version of the mechanic listed in RUE. As there is no direct conflict it still valid in RAW.

Where it says in RUE that you require the WP to make a called or aimed shot?
And that there is no mention of the ability to make called shots in the melee section which means that it is a house rule to claim that you CAN do so.
And as I pointed out the GMG is not a RUE book. Where RUE and the GMG are in conflict RUE trumps the GMG.
and frankly the GMG simply supports RUE since RUE gives us the rules for it, and tells us when and where you can make a called shot.

Other than that...

[Axelmania]

I am sorry where does it say that it requires a WP to make a called shot?

Where it says in RUE that you require the WP to make a called or aimed shot?

Or, more helpfully, from RUE 360:

Note: a character with no gun proficiency rolls 1D20 with no bonuses to strike, can NOT make an Aimed Shot or a Called Shot and suffers a penalty of -3 to strike with burst attacks

there is no mention of the ability to make called shots in the melee section which means that it is a house rule to claim that you CAN do so.

Page 15 of SOT4 (an Erin Tarn experience) has Thorpe fighting with his psi-sword and it says:

"While still in midair, he slices the left shoulder gun in half"
"Sir Thorpe manages to hold on, chopping at the head and main body"
"The right shoulder gun is the first to go. Then the tri-barrelled laser turret. Then the right hand and chest guns"

This is a canonical event, so clearly psi-swords can make called shots to Glitter Boy Killers. That may be a special situation due to Psyscape 33's "called shots" rule for psychic abilities, so I don't know if you could do this with a normal vibro-blade.

We know it is possible, but maybe not the gritty details. Does it require a WP like modern weapons? Does it require a 2nd attack to perform like modern weapons?

The best guideline is probably Dead Reign which discusses melee weapons making called shots against zombies. I can't recall if it specifies needing a WP or needing a 2nd attack though.

[guardiandashi]

GMG pg 39
A "Called Shot" is an aimed shot that homes in on a specific part of a larger target such as the head, hand, gun, or radio on a character or the radio antenna, sensor cluster, spotlight, tires, etc., of a vehicle. An aimed, "Called Shot" is necessary to strike the tiny bull's-eye of a target, the sensor eye of a robot, or the gun held in an attacker's hand (the target is the gun, not the person holding it). To make a called shot, the player must "call" or "announce" his character's intension; i.e. "I'm going to shoot the gun from his hand.


pg 361 RUE
a called shot target specification. This is a shot that homes in on a specific part of a larger target, such as a bull's-eye. an opponent's head, hand, gun, radio antenna, sensor cluster, spotlight, tires, ect. but counts as two melee attacks.

To make a called shot the player must call or announce his charters intent.

Rifts RPG pg 40(obsolete)
A character may attempt to shoot a specific target or area. This is done by clearly stating what the exact target is before the roll to strike is made. Once the shot is "called", the player rolls the usual 1D20 to strike. A successful roll, above a 12, hits exactly whatever the intended target was, unless the opponent dodges. Called shots can be an important strategy enabling characters to disable robots and military vehicles rather than destroy the whole unit. This means a character can destroy specific targets on robots and vehicles, such as radar antennas, weapon barrels, sensors, mechanical legs, arms, etc. Note: Any shot which is not called will strike what is identified as the main body of the robot or vehicle. The main body is the largest, bulkiest part of the target and most likely to be hit. If a player calls his shot, but misses by rolling under 12, but above 4, he/she still strikes, but hits the main body instead of the specific, "called" target. I avoid random hit location tables because I feel the randomness is too flukey and unrealistic.



While it does say a charter with the WP can make a called shot, and also says a charter with no gun proficiency can not make called shot. It never clearly states it is required to have a WP to make a called shot with non gun weapons/attacks. The statement about making are found in the section covering modern WP. The mechanics of called shots never state that you need a skill to make a called shot, just that you announce the attempt.

My conclusion is that the book does say that guns(to include energy weapons) require a WP to make a called, but does not state that a WP is required to make a called shot out side of guns. So I would say that would be a GM call. I would rule that guns would require a WP to make a called shot(do to needing to able to aim them) other types of attacks do not, after all a dragon or dog boy does not have a WP for teeth and I do not see a dog boy as not being able to bite some one on the arm.

We should also be able to assume that a machine that is all to identify a target and is programmed to shoot at the head is probably considered to have wp whatever the heck it's shooting right? So then can we also assume that like Davinci's robots a bouncing Betty or other specially designed trap is essentially "programmed" with the wp? On the other hand it could always be prerolled called shot by the person who plants it, which is just rolled at a later time when the device is tripped?

I kind of figure the skill check you use to set the boobytrap substitutes for the wp used to attack with a weapon. IE I walk up to xyz unit and place a demolition charge on it (roll demolitions) means if you succeed you generally get to do what you told the GM you were trying to do (although you still need to roll damage to see how successful it was in that aspect) IE I am going to stick the demolition charge on the back of the head/neck of the samas...or similar.

using the trapmaking skill a success means you generally designed (set) the trap correctly for what you are trying to accomplish. it still may not work as intended but you set it so it should work like the trip cable is set to do what you were trying, the problem is its calibrated for a person to trigger it, so the cyborg may not even notice it (or) trip over it if that was the goal

Only thing I don't like about that is you can't dodge that nor roll from blast as there is no d20 to compete against.

not really, the "trap" should still make a roll to hit especially if its attempting to hit something besides the main body, what I was getting at is by using your trap making skill you are effectively replacing the wp requirement to make a called shot with a more correct skill to properly setup the trap to attempt to accomplish your actual goals.

[eliakon]

I am sorry where does it say that it requires a WP to make a called shot?

Where it says in RUE that you require the WP to make a called or aimed shot?

Or, more helpfully, from RUE 360:

Note: a character with no gun proficiency rolls 1D20 with no bonuses to strike, can NOT make an Aimed Shot or a Called Shot and suffers a penalty of -3 to strike with burst attacks

there is no mention of the ability to make called shots in the melee section which means that it is a house rule to claim that you CAN do so.

Page 15 of SOT4 (an Erin Tarn experience) has Thorpe fighting with his psi-sword and it says:

"While still in midair, he slices the left shoulder gun in half"
"Sir Thorpe manages to hold on, chopping at the head and main body"
"The right shoulder gun is the first to go. Then the tri-barrelled laser turret. Then the right hand and chest guns"

This is a canonical event, so clearly psi-swords can make called shots to Glitter Boy Killers. That may be a special situation due to Psyscape 33's "called shots" rule for psychic abilities, so I don't know if you could do this with a normal vibro-blade.

We know it is possible, but maybe not the gritty details. Does it require a WP like modern weapons? Does it require a 2nd attack to perform like modern weapons?

The best guideline is probably Dead Reign which discusses melee weapons making called shots against zombies. I can't recall if it specifies needing a WP or needing a 2nd attack though.

there are so many problems with this assertion that I don't know where to begin.
The first and most important is that it presumes that fiction is game canon. Which it is not.
The second is that it conflates fiction with game stats. We have plenty of examples of things in the fiction that can not be performed via the rules... which is fine. Fiction is just that... fiction it is not part of the game stats
The third is that it presumes that the narrative results of the damage are different than the mechanical ones.

TL:DR Fiction is not part of the game mechanics, nor part of the canon and thus is not any sort of example of the rules unless explicitly stated to be such.

[Axelmania]

All of the game canon is "fiction". I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

Page 14-18 "An Erin Tarn Experience" is a canonical event demonstrating how the world of Rifts Earth works, and what is possible in that world. If this was merely some letter she wrote, I could write it off, but it is not in that format.

We have plenty of examples of things in the fiction that can not be performed via the rules

Give me an example of something explicitly forbidden by the rules (rather than something which just has vague mechanics, like grappling or how to eat a hamburger) which has been written about as a direct description of events, as opposed to an NPC's journal or something which could be inaccurate.

[Blue_Lion]

GMG pg 39
A "Called Shot" is an aimed shot that homes in on a specific part of a larger target such as the head, hand, gun, or radio on a character or the radio antenna, sensor cluster, spotlight, tires, etc., of a vehicle. An aimed, "Called Shot" is necessary to strike the tiny bull's-eye of a target, the sensor eye of a robot, or the gun held in an attacker's hand (the target is the gun, not the person holding it). To make a called shot, the player must "call" or "announce" his character's intension; i.e. "I'm going to shoot the gun from his hand.


pg 361 RUE
a called shot target specification. This is a shot that homes in on a specific part of a larger target, such as a bull's-eye. an opponent's head, hand, gun, radio antenna, sensor cluster, spotlight, tires, ect. but counts as two melee attacks.

To make a called shot the player must call or announce his charters intent.

Rifts RPG pg 40(obsolete)
A character may attempt to shoot a specific target or area. This is done by clearly stating what the exact target is before the roll to strike is made. Once the shot is "called", the player rolls the usual 1D20 to strike. A successful roll, above a 12, hits exactly whatever the intended target was, unless the opponent dodges. Called shots can be an important strategy enabling characters to disable robots and military vehicles rather than destroy the whole unit. This means a character can destroy specific targets on robots and vehicles, such as radar antennas, weapon barrels, sensors, mechanical legs, arms, etc. Note: Any shot which is not called will strike what is identified as the main body of the robot or vehicle. The main body is the largest, bulkiest part of the target and most likely to be hit. If a player calls his shot, but misses by rolling under 12, but above 4, he/she still strikes, but hits the main body instead of the specific, "called" target. I avoid random hit location tables because I feel the randomness is too flukey and unrealistic.



While it does say a charter with the WP can make a called shot, and also says a charter with no gun proficiency can not make called shot. It never clearly states it is required to have a WP to make a called shot with non gun weapons/attacks. The statement about making are found in the section covering modern WP. The mechanics of called shots never state that you need a skill to make a called shot, just that you announce the attempt.

My conclusion is that the book does say that guns(to include energy weapons) require a WP to make a called, but does not state that a WP is required to make a called shot out side of guns. So I would say that would be a GM call. I would rule that guns would require a WP to make a called shot(do to needing to able to aim them) other types of attacks do not, after all a dragon or dog boy does not have a WP for teeth and I do not see a dog boy as not being able to bite some one on the arm.

We should also be able to assume that a machine that is all to identify a target and is programmed to shoot at the head is probably considered to have wp whatever the heck it's shooting right? So then can we also assume that like Davinci's robots a bouncing Betty or other specially designed trap is essentially "programmed" with the wp? On the other hand it could always be prerolled called shot by the person who plants it, which is just rolled at a later time when the device is tripped?

I kind of figure the skill check you use to set the boobytrap substitutes for the wp used to attack with a weapon. IE I walk up to xyz unit and place a demolition charge on it (roll demolitions) means if you succeed you generally get to do what you told the GM you were trying to do (although you still need to roll damage to see how successful it was in that aspect) IE I am going to stick the demolition charge on the back of the head/neck of the samas...or similar.

using the trapmaking skill a success means you generally designed (set) the trap correctly for what you are trying to accomplish. it still may not work as intended but you set it so it should work like the trip cable is set to do what you were trying, the problem is its calibrated for a person to trigger it, so the cyborg may not even notice it (or) trip over it if that was the goal

If the trap catches you by surprise you can not dodge. If the trap did not catch you by surprise why the heck did you triger it.
Only thing I don't like about that is you can't dodge that nor roll from blast as there is no d20 to compete against.

not really, the "trap" should still make a roll to hit especially if its attempting to hit something besides the main body, what I was getting at is by using your trap making skill you are effectively replacing the wp requirement to make a called shot with a more correct skill to properly setup the trap to attempt to accomplish your actual goals.

[Zer0 Kay]

Wow that quoting really needs work

[Blue_Lion]

Wow that quoting really needs work

I think I see what is happening.
When I tried to edit it the whole think does not load. (connection or an issue with windows 10 I do not know.

What I was trying to add is** that if a trap catches you by surprise you can not dodge it. If the trap does not catch you by surpise why did you set it off to begin with.

[Mack]

All of the game canon is "fiction". I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

Page 14-18 "An Erin Tarn Experience" is a canonical event demonstrating how the world of Rifts Earth works, and what is possible in that world. If this was merely some letter she wrote, I could write it off, but it is not in that format.

Erin Tarn’s account is un-verified. All of the information she presents is merely her opinion and may or may not be accurate and true. (For example, would I trust Lt Col Armstrong Custer’s account of the Indian Wars? No, not with significant corroboration.)

That’s why her account is not canon.

[Zer0 Kay]

Wow that quoting really needs work

I think I see what is happening.
When I tried to edit it the whole think does not load. (connection or an issue with windows 10 I do not know.

What I was trying to add is** that if a trap catches you by surprise you can not dodge it. If the trap does not catch you by surpise why did you set it off to begin with.

So a person puts a single 8" diameter mine in a 100' diametdr field and because he succeeded in using the skill the next person to walk through it will step on it?

A player declares to the GM that he is seating the grenade at head height and running a trip wire... the group that happens to be coming through next has a handling a fairy an elf and a Titan... good thing he succeeded in his roll because which ever one trips that trap is going to get their heads blasted off.

[eliakon]

Wow that quoting really needs work

I think I see what is happening.
When I tried to edit it the whole think does not load. (connection or an issue with windows 10 I do not know.

What I was trying to add is** that if a trap catches you by surprise you can not dodge it. If the trap does not catch you by surpise why did you set it off to begin with.

So a person puts a single 8" diameter mine in a 100' diametdr field and because he succeeded in using the skill the next person to walk through it will step on it?

A player declares to the GM that he is seating the grenade at head height and running a trip wire... the group that happens to be coming through next has a handling a fairy an elf and a Titan... good thing he succeeded in his roll because which ever one trips that trap is going to get their heads blasted off.

Ad absurdum arguments are not helping your case.
Remember that whole "use logic" thing?
Trying to claim that no form of trap works because there is no way to use logic to interpret it is basically trolling at this point.

So yes, if a person sets a single mine then if the person steps where that mine is... it goes off. That is how mines WORK after all. There is no way to 'dodge' your foot. If you want to not step on the mine... then, wait for it... don't step on the mine.
There are things like "perception rolls" and "detect traps" and "find traps" and even a specific "detect mines" skill. If you DO step on it you can choose to attempt to roll with the blow...
...but you can't 'dodge' it. You already steped on it, you can't go back in time and retroactively try and dodge stepping on the mine.
Now, if the mine has a delay of some sort... then yes, you can attempt a dodge roll to see if you can get out of the blast before it goes off.

The same with your hypothetical trap. You said it yourself. The trap is set at a certain height. Thus if you set it off, then you get hit in the location that is at that height. If there is nothing at that height, like your fairy, then gues what... either they dont set off the trap, or they dont get hit.

It's pretty simple really. You see in Rifts there is this person called "the Game Master". They do this thing where they use logic and narrative necessity to figure out how things work, especially in unclear cases. This is ESPECIALLY important for the sort of things being discussed here otherwise by your standards nothing exists except for floating boxes of damage points... after all if there is no interpretation then nothing can do anything except the rolled dice, to the listed damage points until target runs out of damage points... there is no environment, or secondary effects, or sizes or extinuating circumstances or anything really. This is why this is called a "pen and paper RPG" and not "A fully automated computer game".

[Blue_Lion]

Wow that quoting really needs work

I think I see what is happening.
When I tried to edit it the whole think does not load. (connection or an issue with windows 10 I do not know.

What I was trying to add is** that if a trap catches you by surprise you can not dodge it. If the trap does not catch you by surpise why did you set it off to begin with.

So a person puts a single 8" diameter mine in a 100' diametdr field and because he succeeded in using the skill the next person to walk through it will step on it?

A player declares to the GM that he is seating the grenade at head height and running a trip wire... the group that happens to be coming through next has a handling a fairy an elf and a Titan... good thing he succeeded in his roll because which ever one trips that trap is going to get their heads blasted off.

1 most likely not. your roll is to place and hide it not make some one step on it. I said that was an issue for contact mines in another thread.

2 Unless the grenade is touching the head, its damage would most likely go to the mam body when it goes off same as grenade that lands at the feet.(Typically grenades are not shaped/direct charges) A trip wire requires something to pull or trip over it it to set it off, so a fairy is unlikely to set it off. Depending on the height a titan might step over it even if he does not know the trip wire is there.

You also forget there are rolls to detect traps if they make such a roll the see and dodge it.

This seams to be trying to make absurd breaches of logic you would see in a computer game. There is no rule just because you make a set trap roll that some one has to set it off. -Traps either require area saturation or channeling to have a good chance of success. Contact traps are typically placed in areas of dedicated movement such as trails, door ways, or field saturation with lots of mines in field.

[Zer0 Kay]

Wow that quoting really needs work

I think I see what is happening.
When I tried to edit it the whole think does not load. (connection or an issue with windows 10 I do not know.

What I was trying to add is** that if a trap catches you by surprise you can not dodge it. If the trap does not catch you by surpise why did you set it off to begin with.

So a person puts a single 8" diameter mine in a 100' diametdr field and because he succeeded in using the skill the next person to walk through it will step on it?

A player declares to the GM that he is seating the grenade at head height and running a trip wire... the group that happens to be coming through next has a handling a fairy an elf and a Titan... good thing he succeeded in his roll because which ever one trips that trap is going to get their heads blasted off.

1 most likely not. your roll is to place and hide it not make some one step on it. I said that was an issue for contact mines in another thread.

2 Unless the grenade is touching the head, its damage would most likely go to the mam body when it goes off same as grenade that lands at the feet.(Typically grenades are not shaped/direct charges) A trip wire requires something to pull or trip over it it to set it off, so a fairy is unlikely to set it off. Depending on the height a titan might step over it even if he does not know the trip wire is there.

You also forget there are rolls to detect traps if they make such a roll the see and dodge it.

This seams to be trying to make absurd breaches of logic you would see in a computer game. There is no rule just because you make a set trap roll that some one has to set it off. -Traps either require area saturation or channeling to have a good chance of success. Contact traps are typically placed in areas of dedicated movement such as trails, door ways, or field saturation with lots of mines in field.

That roll to see requires a skill and nothing in the mechanic takes into consideration dumb luck.

Some of the other things you point out... what if the trap was set for a fairy or the Titan? As the GM are we to automatically assume the trap is being set for the same race as the PC unless the player states otherwise? Maybe the mission objective? Are we to be jackwagons and require the player to be super specific on what exactly their doin to the bomb? How do we determine if the Titan trips it or not?

[eliakon]

Wow that quoting really needs work

I think I see what is happening.
When I tried to edit it the whole think does not load. (connection or an issue with windows 10 I do not know.

What I was trying to add is** that if a trap catches you by surprise you can not dodge it. If the trap does not catch you by surpise why did you set it off to begin with.

So a person puts a single 8" diameter mine in a 100' diametdr field and because he succeeded in using the skill the next person to walk through it will step on it?

A player declares to the GM that he is seating the grenade at head height and running a trip wire... the group that happens to be coming through next has a handling a fairy an elf and a Titan... good thing he succeeded in his roll because which ever one trips that trap is going to get their heads blasted off.

1 most likely not. your roll is to place and hide it not make some one step on it. I said that was an issue for contact mines in another thread.

2 Unless the grenade is touching the head, its damage would most likely go to the mam body when it goes off same as grenade that lands at the feet.(Typically grenades are not shaped/direct charges) A trip wire requires something to pull or trip over it it to set it off, so a fairy is unlikely to set it off. Depending on the height a titan might step over it even if he does not know the trip wire is there.

You also forget there are rolls to detect traps if they make such a roll the see and dodge it.

This seams to be trying to make absurd breaches of logic you would see in a computer game. There is no rule just because you make a set trap roll that some one has to set it off. -Traps either require area saturation or channeling to have a good chance of success. Contact traps are typically placed in areas of dedicated movement such as trails, door ways, or field saturation with lots of mines in field.

That roll to see requires a skill and nothing in the mechanic takes into consideration dumb luck.

Some of the other things you point out... what if the trap was set for a fairy or the Titan? As the GM are we to automatically assume the trap is being set for the same race as the PC unless the player states otherwise? Maybe the mission objective? Are we to be jackwagons and require the player to be super specific on what exactly their doin to the bomb? How do we determine if the Titan trips it or not?

Again... are you trying to code for a video game or playing an RPG.
Because in an RPG all of your questions are handled by the game. That whole "GM" thing and all.
Games are not deterministic with y/n logic tables that govern every action with no variation or interpretation. That is computer programing and unless your players are computers that isnt what you need.
Instead you simply talk to people and ask questions. if you don't know what the trap was set for... you ask the person who set it, or the Gm makes the decision. You are not left helplessly wondering because it was not coded into the dataset.

This sort of stuff is why there is a Rule Zero in the first place for instance! That little bit of canon that the absudists like to ignore that says "when in doubt, the GM will settle the question in the apropriate manner"

[Blue_Lion]

I am sorry where does it say that it requires a WP to make a called shot?

Where it says in RUE that you require the WP to make a called or aimed shot?

Or, more helpfully, from RUE 360:

Note: a character with no gun proficiency rolls 1D20 with no bonuses to strike, can NOT make an Aimed Shot or a Called Shot and suffers a penalty of -3 to strike with burst attacks

there is no mention of the ability to make called shots in the melee section which means that it is a house rule to claim that you CAN do so.

Page 15 of SOT4 (an Erin Tarn experience) has Thorpe fighting with his psi-sword and it says:

"While still in midair, he slices the left shoulder gun in half"
"Sir Thorpe manages to hold on, chopping at the head and main body"
"The right shoulder gun is the first to go. Then the tri-barrelled laser turret. Then the right hand and chest guns"

This is a canonical event, so clearly psi-swords can make called shots to Glitter Boy Killers. That may be a special situation due to Psyscape 33's "called shots" rule for psychic abilities, so I don't know if you could do this with a normal vibro-blade.

We know it is possible, but maybe not the gritty details. Does it require a WP like modern weapons? Does it require a 2nd attack to perform like modern weapons?

The best guideline is probably Dead Reign which discusses melee weapons making called shots against zombies. I can't recall if it specifies needing a WP or needing a 2nd attack though.

You think a note on the use of guns with no proficeny equals a requirement of a wp for none guns?
You have to look at the context of the note. Take into account the whole text and not cherry pick out of context to create misleading quotes.

The context is we have a instructions/rules on the use of guns (including energy weapons) with no proficiency with an attached note that says with no proficiency in guns you can not do called shot. -That means as written the text is addressing guns and energy weapons only. It is not a blanket requirement for WP for anything else as you are presenting it.

[Blue_Lion]

Wow that quoting really needs work

I think I see what is happening.
When I tried to edit it the whole think does not load. (connection or an issue with windows 10 I do not know.

What I was trying to add is** that if a trap catches you by surprise you can not dodge it. If the trap does not catch you by surpise why did you set it off to begin with.

So a person puts a single 8" diameter mine in a 100' diametdr field and because he succeeded in using the skill the next person to walk through it will step on it?

A player declares to the GM that he is seating the grenade at head height and running a trip wire... the group that happens to be coming through next has a handling a fairy an elf and a Titan... good thing he succeeded in his roll because which ever one trips that trap is going to get their heads blasted off.

1 most likely not. your roll is to place and hide it not make some one step on it. I said that was an issue for contact mines in another thread.

2 Unless the grenade is touching the head, its damage would most likely go to the mam body when it goes off same as grenade that lands at the feet.(Typically grenades are not shaped/direct charges) A trip wire requires something to pull or trip over it it to set it off, so a fairy is unlikely to set it off. Depending on the height a titan might step over it even if he does not know the trip wire is there.

You also forget there are rolls to detect traps if they make such a roll the see and dodge it.

This seams to be trying to make absurd breaches of logic you would see in a computer game. There is no rule just because you make a set trap roll that some one has to set it off. -Traps either require area saturation or channeling to have a good chance of success. Contact traps are typically placed in areas of dedicated movement such as trails, door ways, or field saturation with lots of mines in field.

That roll to see requires a skill and nothing in the mechanic takes into consideration dumb luck.

Some of the other things you point out... what if the trap was set for a fairy or the Titan? As the GM are we to automatically assume the trap is being set for the same race as the PC unless the player states otherwise? Maybe the mission objective? Are we to be jackwagons and require the player to be super specific on what exactly their doin to the bomb? How do we determine if the Titan trips it or not?

Simple the gm is the awnser to all questions presented.

[Zer0 Kay]

True nuff

[eliakon]

You think a note on the use of guns with no proficeny equals a requirement of a wp for none guns?
You have to look at the context of the note. Take into account the whole text and not cherry pick out of context to create misleading quotes.

The context is we have a instructions/rules on the use of guns (including energy weapons) with no proficiency with an attached note that says with no proficiency in guns you can not do called shot. -That means as written the text is addressing guns and energy weapons only. It is not a blanket requirement for WP for anything else as you are presenting it.

The problem with this stance is that the rules for HOW to make called shots are in this section, and it is in THOSE rules that the WP rule is mentioned.
Thus the only place there are rules for called shots (modern weapons) we are explicitly told that to use these rules you must have the apropriate W.P.

Now if someone can find a RUE rule that says otherwise in a RUE book then I will be happy to change my stance. Until then my stance is that RAW you must have a WP to make a called shot. I may or may not waive that at my table... but the 'as written' is the issue here. Not what people think was intended, not what is the most commonly used... just the canon rules as written.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Meh, I'll give this one more try. I'll start by stating most of these aren't specifically in RUE, but they're all books printed using the same Called Shot rules as RUE.

1. Rifts Vampire Kingdoms Revised (that's the new one, you know, the one printed after RUE) discusses attacks on the heart on page 83. These rules specify requiring a "Called Shot," and also allow this to be done with hand to hand combat and swordplay. These do not fall into the "gun proficiency" category that would be required by certain interpretations of RUE.

2. As I previously mentioned, RUE compatible printings of RGMG have the same (or at least very close, as I have not compared them line by line) Ranged Combat as RUE, and the same Called Shot rules from RUE everyone keeps quoting. These same printings also have rules Q&A that discuss using your hand to make a called shot. Empty hands for grabbing objects definitely do not have a W.P., but are still capable of making a Called Shot.

3. As someone brought up earlier in this thread, Dead Reign has rules for making Called Shots in melee. Now, the Dead Reign rules are on page 36 and specify they apply to Zombies only, but the melee notes remain (they use terms like "cut, chopped, bashed"). Dead Reign also has the same (or, again, very similar) Ranged Combat rules, and the same Called Shot rules as RUE.

4. Now, to add to that, RUE tells us that you must have a "gun proficiency" to make Aimed or Called Shots. This is in the Modern Weapon Proficiency section, as well as the Ranged Combat section (while discussing Modern Weapons). However, a bow and arrow (as well as crossbows) can make Aimed and Called Shots per the Sniper skill. The notes in the Ranged Combat section don't really apply to bows and arrows, since the Ranged Combat section tells us not to add P.P. but the Ancient Weapon Proficiency section (which Archery is a part of) tells us to add P.P. Archery is a great example of Ancient Weapons NOT following the same rules as the Modern Weapons, even though ranged (and clearly stated as being able to make Aimed and Called Shots).

All right, I think I'm done. If I spend some more time I could probably find a few more examples, but I also don't think a few more examples are going to magically sway someone all of the sudden. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Axelmania]

All of the game canon is "fiction". I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

Page 14-18 "An Erin Tarn Experience" is a canonical event demonstrating how the world of Rifts Earth works, and what is possible in that world. If this was merely some letter she wrote, I could write it off, but it is not in that format.

Erin Tarn’s account is un-verified. All of the information she presents is merely her opinion and may or may not be accurate and true. (For example, would I trust Lt Col Armstrong Custer’s account of the Indian Wars? No, not with significant corroboration.)

That’s why her account is not canon.

AETE is not an "account". It isn't one of her books or letters or similar. It isn't told like a story from her perspective. She's simply one of several characters depicted in it. It's written like a historical description from the series writer.

You think a note on the use of guns with no proficeny equals a requirement of a wp for none guns?
You have to look at the context of the note. Take into account the whole text and not cherry pick out of context to create misleading quotes.

The context is we have a instructions/rules on the use of guns (including energy weapons) with no proficiency with an attached note that says with no proficiency in guns you can not do called shot. -That means as written the text is addressing guns and energy weapons only. It is not a blanket requirement for WP for anything else as you are presenting it.

I like this but I anticipate us experiencing resistance to called shots to helmets with vibro-blades being just as easy as to torso unless we at least required the 2 attacks for it.

1. Rifts Vampire Kingdoms Revised (that's the new one, you know, the one printed after RUE) discusses attacks on the heart on page 83. These rules specify requiring a "Called Shot," and also allow this to be done with hand to hand combat and swordplay. These do not fall into the "gun proficiency" category that would be required by certain interpretations of RUE.

Great example. Undead, be they walkers or flappers, seem to be a good source for this stuff.

2. As I previously mentioned, RUE compatible printings of RGMG have the same (or at least very close, as I have not compared them line by line) Ranged Combat as RUE, and the same Called Shot rules from RUE everyone keeps quoting. These same printings also have rules Q&A that discuss using your hand to make a called shot. Empty hands for grabbing objects definitely do not have a W.P., but are still capable of making a Called Shot.

I wasn't aware that GMG used the RUE/DR system for ranged combat.

[eliakon]

Greetings and Salutations. Meh, I'll give this one more try. I'll start by stating most of these aren't specifically in RUE, but they're all books printed using the same Called Shot rules as RUE.

1. Rifts Vampire Kingdoms Revised (that's the new one, you know, the one printed after RUE) discusses attacks on the heart on page 83. These rules specify requiring a "Called Shot," and also allow this to be done with hand to hand combat and swordplay. These do not fall into the "gun proficiency" category that would be required by certain interpretations of RUE.

2. As I previously mentioned, RUE compatible printings of RGMG have the same (or at least very close, as I have not compared them line by line) Ranged Combat as RUE, and the same Called Shot rules from RUE everyone keeps quoting. These same printings also have rules Q&A that discuss using your hand to make a called shot. Empty hands for grabbing objects definitely do not have a W.P., but are still capable of making a Called Shot.

3. As someone brought up earlier in this thread, Dead Reign has rules for making Called Shots in melee. Now, the Dead Reign rules are on page 36 and specify they apply to Zombies only, but the melee notes remain (they use terms like "cut, chopped, bashed"). Dead Reign also has the same (or, again, very similar) Ranged Combat rules, and the same Called Shot rules as RUE.

4. Now, to add to that, RUE tells us that you must have a "gun proficiency" to make Aimed or Called Shots. This is in the Modern Weapon Proficiency section, as well as the Ranged Combat section (while discussing Modern Weapons). However, a bow and arrow (as well as crossbows) can make Aimed and Called Shots per the Sniper skill. The notes in the Ranged Combat section don't really apply to bows and arrows, since the Ranged Combat section tells us not to add P.P. but the Ancient Weapon Proficiency section (which Archery is a part of) tells us to add P.P. Archery is a great example of Ancient Weapons NOT following the same rules as the Modern Weapons, even though ranged (and clearly stated as being able to make Aimed and Called Shots).

All right, I think I'm done. If I spend some more time I could probably find a few more examples, but I also don't think a few more examples are going to magically sway someone all of the sudden. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Alrighty then...
...this is what I was looking for.
That is 2 examples of RUE rules with called shots outside of modern weapons, one of which is in hand to hand.

As I said before I am willing to change my view if there is evidence to support that change. And in light of this evidence I must conclude that needing a WP is a "may or may not" situation that seems to be weighted towards the "only with guns and their ilk"

[Blue_Lion]

You think a note on the use of guns with no proficeny equals a requirement of a wp for none guns?
You have to look at the context of the note. Take into account the whole text and not cherry pick out of context to create misleading quotes.

The context is we have a instructions/rules on the use of guns (including energy weapons) with no proficiency with an attached note that says with no proficiency in guns you can not do called shot. -That means as written the text is addressing guns and energy weapons only. It is not a blanket requirement for WP for anything else as you are presenting it.

The problem with this stance is that the rules for HOW to make called shots are in this section, and it is in THOSE rules that the WP rule is mentioned.
Thus the only place there are rules for called shots (modern weapons) we are explicitly told that to use these rules you must have the apropriate W.P.

Now if someone can find a RUE rule that says otherwise in a RUE book then I will be happy to change my stance. Until then my stance is that RAW you must have a WP to make a called shot. I may or may not waive that at my table... but the 'as written' is the issue here. Not what people think was intended, not what is the most commonly used... just the canon rules as written.

We are not told explicitly that you must have an appropriate WP(I have already explained this in detail) Under the heading no wp it has rules use guns (including energy weapons) without appropriate skill and the rule here is focused on the use of guns without wp. We are told in a note that you must have proficiency in guns.(it does not address anything but guns.)
Literally interpretation would be any one with gun skill can do called shots with any weapon/attack.
Context interpretation would be any one with out skill in a gun can not do called shots with guns.


The mechanic for called shot never mentions weapon skills.

***So as you are now claiming we have a explicated statement that you need a appropriate WP to do called shots is not in my book please provide page and quote where it says you need appropriate WP to do a called shot because I can find no such statement.

Your stance is making claims of a statement not on page 360 or 361 in my book. (so this apears you mistaking a house rule for canon)

[Blue_Lion]

Axlemania how do you think it would be as easy to make called shots with a vibro blade as it would be to hit the main body? There is only 1 mechanic requiring a roll of 12or higher and taking 2-3 actions. (If you do not believe me look for any mecanic in rue for called shots besides the one on page 361.)

[eliakon]

Axlemania how do you think it would be as easy to make called shots with a vibro blade as it would be to hit the main body? There is only 1 mechanic requiring a roll of 12or higher and taking 2-3 actions. (If you do not believe me look for any mecanic in rue for called shots besides the one on page 361.)

he is half right.
Called shots take 2 actions not 1.
But otherwise they have the same target number as a regular strike.
There can be a size modifier penalty for aimed shots if you are targeting something small but they are not automatic, nor do they always apply.

[Blue_Lion]

Axlemania how do you think it would be as easy to make called shots with a vibro blade as it would be to hit the main body? There is only 1 mechanic requiring a roll of 12or higher and taking 2-3 actions. (If you do not believe me look for any mecanic in rue for called shots besides the one on page 361.)

he is half right.
Called shots take 2 actions not 1.
But otherwise they have the same target number as a regular strike.
There can be a size modifier penalty for aimed shots if you are targeting something small but they are not automatic, nor do they always apply.

You are right I had the old target number stuck in my head. Looks like it got replaced by the requires two actions.


Basically it is as easy for a vibro blade to make a called shot vs a shot the main body as it is for a sniper rifle.

[Zer0 Kay]

Axlemania how do you think it would be as easy to make called shots with a vibro blade as it would be to hit the main body? There is only 1 mechanic requiring a roll of 12or higher and taking 2-3 actions. (If you do not believe me look for any mecanic in rue for called shots besides the one on page 361.)

he is half right.
Called shots take 2 actions not 1.
But otherwise they have the same target number as a regular strike.
There can be a size modifier penalty for aimed shots if you are targeting something small but they are not automatic, nor do they always apply.

You are right I had the old target number stuck in my head. Looks like it got replaced by the requires two actions.


Basically it is as easy for a vibro blade to make a called shot vs a shot the main body as it is for a sniper rifle.

Hmm, gotta house rule that back to the original rules. Makes more sense to me that it is harder to hit (12+) a specific, smaller target, rather than simply taking longer (two actions).

[Axelmania]

Literally interpenetration would be any one with gun skill can do called shots with any weapon/attack.
Context interpenetration would be any one with out skill in a gun can not do called shots with guns.

LEWD

Axlemania how do you think it would be as easy to make called shots with a vibro blade as it would be to hit the main body? There is only 1 mechanic requiring a roll of 12or higher and taking 2-3 actions. (If you do not believe me look for any mecanic in rue for called shots besides the one on page 361.)

I think it's just as easy because in Dead Reign it's just as easy (1 action) to punch/stab a zombie in the arm/leg as it is their torso. Only ranged weapons mention needing 2 attacks for called shots.

Also if you look back to classic rules, called shots used to take 1 attack for guns too, and the 12+ required to make a called shot was 0 drawbacks if you were shooting at people with high natural AR anyway.

Nightbane references called shots on 113/131 but page 60 doesn't actually mention them...
PF2 references called shots on 83 and 88 but doesn't really explain any added penalties to doing so. Page 83 is particularly interesting because it involves making called shots with a LANCE.
HU2p78 halved bonuses for called shots, as does Systems Failure 49

I'd be willing to go with that except that halved bonuses mean nothing for the bonusless so we need a basic penalty.

RUE 361: bursts reduce strike bonuses by 1/2 for those with WP, or -3 to strike for those without. This is a good precedent to use for called shots for those without WP, if you allow it for non-prohibited cases like non-guns. This would be reasonable house rule to apply for Dead Reign, for example, when not targeting the torso.

There seems to be 2 classic approaches to called shots:
1) half bonuses, takes 1 action (HU and Systems Failure) which I would house rule as -3 if you have no bonuses at all.
2) full bonuses, takes 2 actions, requires a WP, guns only (Dead Reign, RUE, Robotech)

So I'd resort to HU/SF single-action rules when you don't need the WP+2 actions per gun rules.

[Blue_Lion]

Literally interpenetration would be any one with gun skill can do called shots with any weapon/attack.
Context interpenetration would be any one with out skill in a gun can not do called shots with guns.

LEWD

Axlemania how do you think it would be as easy to make called shots with a vibro blade as it would be to hit the main body? There is only 1 mechanic requiring a roll of 12or higher and taking 2-3 actions. (If you do not believe me look for any mecanic in rue for called shots besides the one on page 361.)

I think it's just as easy because in Dead Reign it's just as easy (1 action) to punch/stab a zombie in the arm/leg as it is their torso. Only ranged weapons mention needing 2 attacks for called shots.

Also if you look back to classic rules, called shots used to take 1 attack for guns too, and the 12+ required to make a called shot was 0 drawbacks if you were shooting at people with high natural AR anyway.

Nightbane references called shots on 113/131 but page 60 doesn't actually mention them...
PF2 references called shots on 83 and 88 but doesn't really explain any added penalties to doing so. Page 83 is particularly interesting because it involves making called shots with a LANCE.
HU2p78 halved bonuses for called shots, as does Systems Failure 49

I'd be willing to go with that except that halved bonuses mean nothing for the bonusless so we need a basic penalty.

RUE 361: bursts reduce strike bonuses by 1/2 for those with WP, or -3 to strike for those without. This is a good precedent to use for called shots for those without WP, if you allow it for non-prohibited cases like non-guns. This would be reasonable house rule to apply for Dead Reign, for example, when not targeting the torso.

There seems to be 2 classic approaches to called shots:
1) half bonuses, takes 1 action (HU and Systems Failure) which I would house rule as -3 if you have no bonuses at all.
2) full bonuses, takes 2 actions, requires a WP, guns only (Dead Reign, RUE, Robotech)

So I'd resort to HU/SF single-action rules when you don't need the WP+2 actions per gun rules.

Is this dead reighn or rifts? Do we use mechanics stated in rifts or dead reign?
(I am a little confused because the mechanic for called shot is cut and paste from rifts. Where does it say only 1 action is needed.)
So as this is not another PB game line there mechanics can not over ride Rifts mechanics.
(note HU and systems failure are not Rifts and where written when rifts was using a set of rules replaced by RUE.)

Also If you read you will see under quick find-bonuses and penalties. Rue pg 361 and dead reign 180 "Called shot-NO bonuses.... "this is not worded as ranged only so in dead reign and RUE called shot takes 2 actions and has no bonuses.

As this is rifts-we should be using rifts books to determine what is required to do called shots not HU, dead reign or any other game.

And burst rules have nothing to do with setting presence for called shots. So the burst rules do not set a precedence.

(Please explain how highlighting a type-o with a comment Lewd is beneficial to the debate and not a personal attack.)