Cyber-Knight in Terrain Hopper

[dataweaver]

I have a character concept of a former NGR Intelligence Commando who went rogue after being forced to stand by while a Gypsy group was slaughtered by Gargoyles. He eventually made his way to North America and was recruited by the Cyber-Knights.

He still has his Terrain Hopper; and therein lies the problem: from what I understand, wearing a suit of PA obstructs the use of supernatural powers, such as psi-swords and “Zen combat training”. What I want to know is if it's possible for, say, a TW to modify a suit of PA to make it transparent to supernatural powers, allowing a cyber-knight to use his special abilities while wearing it.

[ShadowLogan]

It is possible, one of the TWs stated in SoT6 IINM has created such hardware at the EBA level.

[dataweaver]

SoT6? What's that?

[Blue_Lion]

Siege of Tolkeen 6.
What a TW can do is up to your gm.
I think the big issue is what your gm thinks is balanced.
He is within his rights as a gm to say you can not stack them.

It is by the books possible for a gm to make a suit of plate armor with lots of mdc.

[Khanibal]

Doesn't Psionics work through armor? It's only magic that fails? Also, check out the TW PA in the Arzno book.

[Blue_Lion]

Doesn't Psionics work through armor? It's only magic that fails? Also, check out the TW PA in the Arzno book.

Magic is impaired by non natural armor, and clothes by the wording (mettle was not specified) the anzo armor indicates magic may not work in PA. Not sure but I seam to recall a max MDC of PA that psi works through that places many suits unusable.

[ShadowLogan]

It is possible, one of the TWs stated in SoT6 IINM has created such hardware at the EBA level.

Have to correct myself. The SoT6 TW armor that I was thinking of doesn't do what I thought it did. I did find it in MercOps.

Pg153 of MercOps the MA-2 TW Combat Mage Armor, the fluff text (not stats block) states: "It does not interfere with the casting of spell magic", this suit is built out of Huntsman or Peacekeeper armor.

[dataweaver]

So, what would be involved in making a suit of PA transparent to a Cyber-Knight's psi powers? I'm not really looking for a general purpose “any psychic can put this on and use all of their abilities, whatever they may happen to be” solution; I just want my Cyber-Knight to be able to use his powers while suited up. And if he has to go back to the TW and get further modifications installed after developing a new power, that's fine too. I'm not looking to power-game here; I'm OK with there being reasonable costs associated with what he's getting.

Should I look up gems for spells that are analogous to his psi powers, and just say that instead of casting a spell the gem channels the psi power through the PA? The psi-sword and psi-shield should be easy enough; but what about the Zen Combat effects?

[Blue_Lion]

So, what would be involved in making a suit of PA transparent to a Cyber-Knight's psi powers? I'm not really looking for a general purpose “any psychic can put this on and use all of their abilities, whatever they may happen to be” solution; I just want my Cyber-Knight to be able to use his powers while suited up. And if he has to go back to the TW and get further modifications installed after developing a new power, that's fine too. I'm not looking to power-game here; I'm OK with there being reasonable costs associated with what he's getting.

Should I look up gems for spells that are analogous to his psi powers, and just say that instead of casting a spell the gem channels the psi power through the PA? The psi-sword and psi-shield should be easy enough; but what about the Zen Combat effects?

That is all up to the GM. He is the one that will decide if it is possible and what it takes. Same as any other TW item. Ask him if it is possible and what it would take.(There are many snow flake tw items that break normal rules but give no idea how they did it.)

[AzathothXy]

In the Rifts Mechanoids book, Archie and Hagan have worked a psi interface system for power armors and robots. Perhaps a similar system coukd be worked out.

[dataweaver]

Mmm… kinda, sorta. Hagan has Telemechanics, and his PA takes advantage of that.

I do wonder, though, what happens when someone with Telemechanic Possession possesses the PA he's wearing. Since he's essentially “one with the armor”, would he be free to use his other psionics unhindered?

[eliakon]

As far as I am aware there is no limitation on the use of psionic abilities in power armor.
As all the powers of a Cyber-Knight are psionic in nature, it would seem that they should be perfectly fine in using power armor with no limitations other than those that the Code and their morals place on them.

[guardiandashi]

its up to the gm, but one possible issue and way to resolve it, is to "upgrade" various parts of the armor to have "passthrough" and or amplify features,
for example you upgrade the gauntlets (gloves) to passthrough and or amplify the psi sword so instead of the psisword materializing in your hand and trying to cut/burn its way through the power armors gloves, it instead forms in the power armors glove, so that the armor is holding it) possibly even with extra damage because of the way the glove is made.

modify the helmet in a similar way for psionic and or similar capabilities and ... bonus.

[Mack]

RUE page 366 has some guidance on the subject, although it's not directly on point. Psionics that affect the mind are blocked by heavy power armor (250 MDC or more). Based on that, I'd allow the Cyber-Knight's Zen ability to work on opponents even when the Knight is wearing Terrain Hopper power armor (which is at most 200 MDC).

As for the Psi-Sword, I'd allow it to work normally without any suit modifications needed. They heavy power armor definition of 250+ MDC is a good line of demarcation.

[dataweaver]

OK; that works for me. Thanks for the feedback.

[ShadowLogan]

So, what would be involved in making a suit of PA transparent to a Cyber-Knight's psi powers? I'm not really looking for a general purpose “any psychic can put this on and use all of their abilities, whatever they may happen to be” solution; I just want my Cyber-Knight to be able to use his powers while suited up. And if he has to go back to the TW and get further modifications installed after developing a new power, that's fine too. I'm not looking to power-game here; I'm OK with there being reasonable costs associated with what he's getting.

Should I look up gems for spells that are analogous to his psi powers, and just say that instead of casting a spell the gem channels the psi power through the PA? The psi-sword and psi-shield should be easy enough; but what about the Zen Combat effects?

Four TW geared options come to mind:

1. TW Devices can be made to mimic psionic powers, so I'd require a TW device be constructed along those lines for each power the CK/psionic wanted to allow to pass through. Two problems to be considered: 1. Handling Zero/Reduced cost powers, 2. Selecting appropriate Gem(s).

2. TW Device that Astral Projects the CK/psionic (material plane), but anchors them just on top of the suit (just enough so they aren't "in" the suit) and use some type of "puppeteer" spell chain to move the suit in sync with the astral projected user.

3. Require a lattice work of (high quality/rare) quartz crystal to be installed all over the suit's humanoid section (arms, legs, torso, head) both inside and out. This is based on the Phaseworld gear.

4. Get a TW variant that specializes in psionic gear (Vernulians in WB1/30 has them, same with SA2's Gizmoteer, might be others) to create devices as #1 (two problems in #1 don't seem to be an issue with #2, and #1 have some guidance).

[Axelmania]

Doesn't Psionics work through armor? It's only magic that fails? Also, check out the TW PA in the Arzno book.

TW Armor on pg 85 doesn't mention any exceptions far as I can tell, but Ironwood Armor on 88 does. I don't think the "Imitator" series of Power Armor on 89-99 ignores penalties like Ironwood BA though.

What I want to know is if it's possible for, say, a TW to modify a suit of PA to make it transparent to supernatural powers, allowing a cyber-knight to use his special abilities while wearing it.

It is possible, one of the TWs stated in SoT6 IINM has created such hardware at the EBA level.

Closest thing I could find is the Dynamo Armor on page 65, but that allows casting spells from the suit, doesn't address casting spells directly from the wearer. Does anyone know what else Logan might be remembering?

Pg153 of MercOps the MA-2 TW Combat Mage Armor, the fluff text (not stats block) states: "It does not interfere with the casting of spell magic", this suit is built out of Huntsman or Peacekeeper armor.

Nice find! Assuming that unmodified Huntsman / Peacekeeper body armor does interfere with magic, we could view this ability to cast match uncompromised as a benefit that the armor only provides while activated, which would help balance that a little better.

I think I'd fraction costs that to 2 PPE / 4 ISP per minute, but instead of regaining a 50 MDC Armor of Ithan every 10 minutes you should only restore 5 MDC per minute. Incrementing is always cooler.

I guess this doesn't technically help with psionics though.

I do wonder, though, what happens when someone with Telemechanic Possession possesses the PA he's wearing. Since he's essentially “one with the armor”, would he be free to use his other psionics unhindered?

This is a very good question, but since it is "identical to the psionic power, Mentally Possess Others, in every way, except ..") this is a broader question on how to interpret both powers.

I have created a new thread for discussing that here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=155433

I'm loving the idea of Psi-Bat Psi-Techs possessing Skelebots who whip out Psi-Swords to battle entities, personally. Barring that, I could see them doing that with D-Bee slaves or species of mutant animal less beloved than dog boys (finally a use for Mutant Rats!)

[Mlp7029]

I have a character concept of a former NGR Intelligence Commando who went rogue after being forced to stand by while a Gypsy group was slaughtered by Gargoyles. He eventually made his way to North America and was recruited by the Cyber-Knights.

He still has his Terrain Hopper; and therein lies the problem: from what I understand, wearing a suit of PA obstructs the use of supernatural powers, such as psi-swords and “Zen combat training”. What I want to know is if it's possible for, say, a TW to modify a suit of PA to make it transparent to supernatural powers, allowing a cyber-knight to use his special abilities while wearing it.

not sure where you read PA stops Psi powers. Nothing in the Cyber-Knight Zen Combat write up says PA blocks it. Now ther have been discussions on the board about whether a Psi sword would burn through the armor in an armored gauntlet but again nothing in the write-up says it would and artwork definitely shows Psi swords being used with body armor. Now it is not canon but in the Rifts novel the was a cyber-knight who use a suit of Sampson power armor.

[RockJock]

I always used Bio Manipulation as a guideline. Bio Manip works against characters in EBA, or light PA(lists up to 220mdc in RUE). If it can work going into the armor, why not out of it?

[The Beast]

RUE page 366 has some guidance on the subject, although it's not directly on point. Psionics that affect the mind are blocked by heavy power armor (250 MDC or more). Based on that, I'd allow the Cyber-Knight's Zen ability to work on opponents even when the Knight is wearing Terrain Hopper power armor (which is at most 200 MDC).

As for the Psi-Sword, I'd allow it to work normally without any suit modifications needed. They heavy power armor definition of 250+ MDC is a good line of demarcation.

That's good there's more guidance on this. Pre-Rue all I knew was that the SAMAS and Glitter Boys were specifically mentioned as blocking psychic powers and that there were others, but it didn't go into what the others would be.

[eliakon]

RUE page 366 has some guidance on the subject, although it's not directly on point. Psionics that affect the mind are blocked by heavy power armor (250 MDC or more). Based on that, I'd allow the Cyber-Knight's Zen ability to work on opponents even when the Knight is wearing Terrain Hopper power armor (which is at most 200 MDC).

As for the Psi-Sword, I'd allow it to work normally without any suit modifications needed. They heavy power armor definition of 250+ MDC is a good line of demarcation.

That's good there's more guidance on this. Pre-Rue all I knew was that the SAMAS and Glitter Boys were specifically mentioned as blocking psychic powers and that there were others, but it didn't go into what the others would be.

Can you tell us where they are mentioned?
I would like to read the material myself to see if I can match it up with anything else helpful.

[The Beast]

RUE page 366 has some guidance on the subject, although it's not directly on point. Psionics that affect the mind are blocked by heavy power armor (250 MDC or more). Based on that, I'd allow the Cyber-Knight's Zen ability to work on opponents even when the Knight is wearing Terrain Hopper power armor (which is at most 200 MDC).

As for the Psi-Sword, I'd allow it to work normally without any suit modifications needed. They heavy power armor definition of 250+ MDC is a good line of demarcation.

That's good there's more guidance on this. Pre-Rue all I knew was that the SAMAS and Glitter Boys were specifically mentioned as blocking psychic powers and that there were others, but it didn't go into what the others would be.

Can you tell us where they are mentioned?
I would like to read the material myself to see if I can match it up with anything else helpful.

It's going to take me a little while to remember which book I read that in. It's one of those things I remember reading once, but rule issues involving it never came up so I forgot where it is.

[Mack]

RUE page 366 has some guidance on the subject, although it's not directly on point. Psionics that affect the mind are blocked by heavy power armor (250 MDC or more). Based on that, I'd allow the Cyber-Knight's Zen ability to work on opponents even when the Knight is wearing Terrain Hopper power armor (which is at most 200 MDC).

As for the Psi-Sword, I'd allow it to work normally without any suit modifications needed. They heavy power armor definition of 250+ MDC is a good line of demarcation.

That's good there's more guidance on this. Pre-Rue all I knew was that the SAMAS and Glitter Boys were specifically mentioned as blocking psychic powers and that there were others, but it didn't go into what the others would be.

Can you tell us where they are mentioned?
I would like to read the material myself to see if I can match it up with anything else helpful.

It's going to take me a little while to remember which book I read that in. It's one of those things I remember reading once, but rule issues involving it never came up so I forgot where it is.

The original Sourcebook 1, page 10.

[The Beast]

RUE page 366 has some guidance on the subject, although it's not directly on point. Psionics that affect the mind are blocked by heavy power armor (250 MDC or more). Based on that, I'd allow the Cyber-Knight's Zen ability to work on opponents even when the Knight is wearing Terrain Hopper power armor (which is at most 200 MDC).

As for the Psi-Sword, I'd allow it to work normally without any suit modifications needed. They heavy power armor definition of 250+ MDC is a good line of demarcation.

That's good there's more guidance on this. Pre-Rue all I knew was that the SAMAS and Glitter Boys were specifically mentioned as blocking psychic powers and that there were others, but it didn't go into what the others would be.

Can you tell us where they are mentioned?
I would like to read the material myself to see if I can match it up with anything else helpful.

It's going to take me a little while to remember which book I read that in. It's one of those things I remember reading once, but rule issues involving it never came up so I forgot where it is.

Thank you. I knew it was that book and in that section, but I was looking at the answers and not the questions.
The original Sourcebook 1, page 10.

[dataweaver]

The original, but not the revised edition?

[The Beast]

The original, but not the revised edition?

Yeah. PB removed the Q&A section from the revised version.

[Mack]

For the sake of completeness, and since this text is out of print now, here's the quotation:

Question: Can a psi-stalker track a mage, psionic, or supernatural being who is wearing one of the power armors that block psionics and magic such as SAMAS, Glitter Boy, and giant robot vehicles?

Answer: NO! However, the psionic or mage inside the robot or power armor can not use his paranormal powers to affect anybody outside the armor or bot. Of course, if the individual steps out of the robot for a moment, and is in range of the Psi-Stalker, he may be sensed immediately and the stalker will be on his trail again. Likewise, stepping out and using magic will leave a magic scent and the Psi-Stalker will know that magic was used at a particular location and approximately how long ago.

Unfortunately, it doesn't define how tough the power armor needs to be.

[eliakon]

So...
It is possibly not even a rule anymore.
After all, this conflicts with the later rules in the BoM...which ARE still in print.
Sounds to me like this is an early RMB era rule that was changed and now no longer exists.

[Mack]

So...
It is possibly not even a rule anymore.
After all, this conflicts with the later rules in the BoM...which ARE still in print.
Sounds to me like this is an early RMB era rule that was changed and now no longer exists.

I'd say that the original SB1 statement is consistent with the RUE p366 statement.

But what page in BoM are you referring to?

[eliakon]

So...
It is possibly not even a rule anymore.
After all, this conflicts with the later rules in the BoM...which ARE still in print.
Sounds to me like this is an early RMB era rule that was changed and now no longer exists.

I'd say that the original SB1 statement is consistent with the RUE p366 statement.

But what page in BoM are you referring to?

Page 21
"Are there any spell casting penalties when wearing armor?"
and
"What about power armor, or vehicles/giant robots"

The ruling is that power armor is treated the same as body armor for spell casting purposes...
With no exceptions given for certain suits.
This is further supported by the Black Market which has 3 TW Power Armor suits that call out that they (unlike every OTHER suit of TW Power armor, or even Power Armor) specifically prevent spell casting...

Taken together it would seem that the current rule is "Spell casting works just fine* in Power Armor" (for certain values of the word fine)

[Blue_Lion]

So...
It is possibly not even a rule anymore.
After all, this conflicts with the later rules in the BoM...which ARE still in print.
Sounds to me like this is an early RMB era rule that was changed and now no longer exists.

I'd say that the original SB1 statement is consistent with the RUE p366 statement.

But what page in BoM are you referring to?

Page 21
"Are there any spell casting penalties when wearing armor?"
and
"What about power armor, or vehicles/giant robots"

The ruling is that power armor is treated the same as body armor for spell casting purposes...
With no exceptions given for certain suits.
This is further supported by the Black Market which has 3 TW Power Armor suits that call out that they (unlike every OTHER suit of TW Power armor, or even Power Armor) specifically prevent spell casting...

Taken together it would seem that the current rule is "Spell casting works just fine* in Power Armor" (for certain values of the word fine)

The Anzo book states that magic can not be used from inside PA TW PA. The fact they are calling out magic can not be used from inside TW PA to me implies it can not be used in any PA.(but i do not know of an exact rule that says that.)
**I do not have BM with me so I would like to know does the text say unlike every other suit of power armor or is that you pointing out it is not common note.

So it comes down is there some rule that is being missed between the printing of RUE in something like 2005 and arzo in i believe 2006.

Rue has a direct statement on PA on page 188 states in a note the same consideration for PA as body armor exists. And that mages will not know how to use the PA. (note I paraphrased the statement)

[dataweaver]

Do any of these references discuss psychic powers? Because a Cyber-Knight has no magic, but several psychic powers.

[The Beast]

Do any of these references discuss psychic powers? Because a Cyber-Knight has no magic, but several psychic powers.

Yes. The SB1 Q&A included psychics.

[dataweaver]

OK. And RUE p.366 is specifically about psi. With that in mind:

1. RUE 366 specifically mentions 250 MDC as the threshold for when PA starts blocking mind-altering psi. I'm going to assume that the sensor-clouding effects of Cyber-Knight Zen Combat training falls under this rule, and thus is not blocked by the Terrain Hopper.

2. RUE 366 also says that physical manifestations that require touch are blocked by environmental armor, unless it's the armor that's being attacked. That seems like it would include the Psi-Sword and Psi-Shield. So some sort of TW enhancement might be needed to allow the Cyber-Knight to use these “physical manifestation” powers while in the Terrain Hopper.

RUE supersedes and clarifies SB1 in this regard.

[RockJock]

If you are going on the basis that physical touch is blocked by armor would that mean that a CK can't use a PsiSword through EBA? If that is how the rule reads I find it hard to believe that it was meant that way.

[eliakon]

So...
It is possibly not even a rule anymore.
After all, this conflicts with the later rules in the BoM...which ARE still in print.
Sounds to me like this is an early RMB era rule that was changed and now no longer exists.

I'd say that the original SB1 statement is consistent with the RUE p366 statement.

But what page in BoM are you referring to?

Page 21
"Are there any spell casting penalties when wearing armor?"
and
"What about power armor, or vehicles/giant robots"

The ruling is that power armor is treated the same as body armor for spell casting purposes...
With no exceptions given for certain suits.
This is further supported by the Black Market which has 3 TW Power Armor suits that call out that they (unlike every OTHER suit of TW Power armor, or even Power Armor) specifically prevent spell casting...

Taken together it would seem that the current rule is "Spell casting works just fine* in Power Armor" (for certain values of the word fine)

The Anzo book states that magic can not be used from inside PA TW PA. The fact they are calling out magic can not be used from inside TW PA to me implies it can not be used in any PA.(but i do not know of an exact rule that says that.)
**I do not have BM with me so I would like to know does the text say unlike every other suit of power armor or is that you pointing out it is not common note.

So it comes down is there some rule that is being missed between the printing of RUE in something like 2005 and arzo in i believe 2006.

Rue has a direct statement on PA on page 188 states in a note the same consideration for PA as body armor exists. And that mages will not know how to use the PA. (note I paraphrased the statement)

So Arzno seems to be continuing to support my stance.
Those suits had to be called out to be a specific exception to the rule that you can cast spells while wearing power armor.
This is rather important because we have OTHER suits of TW power armor that do NOT have this limitation noted... which means that you CAN cast spells while wearing them because the rules explicitly state that you can cast spells in power armor (unless that suit says otherwise)

[Axelmania]

The more general question here is "how far away from my skin can I start my psi attacks", I think.

Mind Bolts appear to be shot from the forehead based on the artwork (can't recall if the text actually said that) so can you even fire them wearing a helmet? If so, how thick a helmet? If you could fire it through a helmet 3 inches thick, could you also fire through a 3 inch wall if you pressed your forehead against it?

If power armor gauntlets got sliced up by making a psi-sword, what about simple gloves?

I wouldn't mind a "flesh must be bare to the air, or else anything in the way is hit" approach to all psi attacks, but that would probably make a lot of psi-players angry. But I can't think where else to draw a policy line.